Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Digest for usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 11 topics
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Osakue Omoera
Apr 10, 2018, 4:04:41 PM4/10/18
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This is indeed very sad.
On Apr 10, 2018 7:03 PM, <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
...
- OAU Professor Caught on Tape Soliciting Sex from Student - 10 Updates
- Book Announcement: African Science Education: Gendering Indigenous Knowledge in Nigeria - 1 Update
- Sex for mark scandal - 3 Updates
- Fw: Sexual misconduct allegations and investigation - 1 Update
- [NIgerianWorldForum] Released Boko Haram Commander back to the war front, leads deadly attacks - 1 Update
- Gov. Obaseki to build world-class Museum to fast-track recovery of stolen Benin artefacts - 1 Update
- Today's Quote - 1 Update
- Prof Richard Akindele's sex scandal - audio recording - 1 Update
- Winnie Mandela - 4 Updates
- OAU Professor Caught on Tape SolicitingSex from Student - 1 Update
- Over 200 Internship Vacancies at the United Nations Offices Worldwide - 1 Update
Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>: Apr 09 04:24PM -0500
Here is a link to the latest sex scandal involving a Nigeria-based
professor soliciting for sex from a student to pass her in his course. The
audio is currently trending.
https://www.naijanews.com/gist/56076-oau-lecturer-professor-richard-akindele-involved-in-sex-scandal/
-
https://www.naijanews.com/gist/56076-oau-lecturer-professor-richard-akindele-involved-in-sex-scandal/
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*METRO NEWS <https://www.naijanews.com/category/gist/>OAU Lecturer
Professor Richard Akindele Involved In Sex ScandalPublished on April 9,
2018By Naija News Staff
<https://www.naijanews.com/author/naija-news-staff/>
<https://www.naijanews.com/gist/56076-oau-lecturer-professor-richard-akindele-involved-in-sex-scandal/>*
*Prof Richard AkindeleRichard Akindele, a Professor at Obafemi Awolowo
University (OAU), Ile-Ife, Osun State, is in trouble for demanding to have
sex five times with his student before passing her.A telephone conversation
involving the and the student was posted on Youtube on April 9.Naija News
was able to confirm that the voice in the leaked conversation was his, it
is established that the Professor is indeed a staff of OAU.The female
student, whose identity is still unknown, called the Professor to inquire
about his earlier demand for sex to pass her in the lecturer’s course that
she supposedly failed.He told the student that she would repeat the exam in
the next academic session since she had refused to “take the opportunity”
he offered her to have sex with him.“I gave you an opportunity and you
missed it,” the Professor told the female student on phone. “Forget about
it. You will do it next year.”The student said she was calling to confirm
whether he was serious about having sex with her.He responded: “Me that
agreed to do something. I know what I meant. If you don’t trust me forget
about it. If I wouldn’t do it, why should I give you audience in the first
place. If I am not interested in doing it, I won’t give you audience.“The
other person has come and I told her straight away because there is nothing
I can do to bail that person out and her mark is even better than your own.
The person scored 39 while your own is 33.”The lecturer then asked her why
she told him that she was on her period the day they met and he demanded
sex.“I was really seeing my period Professor Akindele,” the girl responded
but the man told her to stop mentioning his name.“And now nko?” he asked,
to which she replied that the period had ended.“Your boyfriend has done it
yesterday?” he asked.“Is it every time that someone will be doing with the
boyfriend?,” she responded. “Is it every time you do it with your
wife?”“Yes,” he answered.“It’s a lie,” the girl exclaimed. “Not
possible.”When the girl asked him about the plan for the arrangement for
her to have the sex so that she could avoid repeating the course, he told
her that they would have the first sex the next day and on four subsequent
occasions.“Is not five we agreed? Our agreement is five,” he said“Is it B
that you want to give me or C?” the girl asked. “Why would it be five times
you will knack me?”She then told him she would not have sex with him five
times.“Prof, you know what? Let me fail it. I can’t do it five times. For
what nah? No worry. Thank you, sir,” she said, then ended the call.Listen
to audio below:*
Shola Adenekan <sholaa...@gmail.com>: Apr 10 07:59AM +0200
Dear All,
As a follow up to Moses's post. Here is another link to the story as
published by Premium Times
-
https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/headlines/264485-top-nigerian-university-oau-enmeshed-in-sex-for-mark-scandal.html
And here is an excerpt from the article:
Several students and staff told PREMIUM TIMES that the male voice was that
of Richard Akinola, a professor in the management and accounting department
of the faculty of administration at OAU. We also gathered that the lady is
a final year student, who failed a course taught by Mr Akinola. Several
efforts to get the lecturer’s reaction were unsuccessful on Monday. He was
not available the different times our correspondent went to his office.
A senior academic staff in the accounting department, who volunteered to
speak without being named, told our correspondent that Mr Akinola was
“caught three years ago” for engaging in the sex-for-mark practice, a common
problem in Nigerian universities
<https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/headlines/178879-how-nigerian-universities-encourage-sexual-harassment-of-female-students.html>
.
“Every Nigerian adult, who is not a liar, who schooled in Nigeria, knows a
Nigerian girl that was hassled for sex over marks/not failing a course in
Nigerian public universities,” commented Japhet Omojuwa, one of the social
media users demanding authorities act to deter others.
--
Regards,
Dr. Shola Adenekan
African Literature and Cultures
University of Bremen
<akiiki.babyesiza@uni-bayreuth.de>Editor/Publisher:
The New Black Magazine - http://www.thenewblackmagazine.com
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin....@gmail.com>: Apr 10 11:57AM +0100
Very sad
toyin
Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>: Apr 10 08:59AM -0500
Predictably, so far, there is radio silence from our colleagues at home,
purveyors of the rhetoric of "a few bad eggs," and "the system is not as
bad as you portray it." We await the disciplinary action, if any, that will
be taken against this predator. On social media, those who know him say
he's been preying on his students for 20 years. And he is also said to be a
pastor. Go figure. Only God knows how many female students have acquiesced
to his predatory demands over the years before this brave, young woman
decided to record him in the act, so to speak.
One thing is for sure: Professor Richard Akindele will have many of his own
colleagues (those who will vehemently argue that one is being unfair to
them, the "clean" lecturers) begging on his behalf and saying that it was
the devil, that he is human and bound to make a mistake, and that he has
mouths to feed and so his career should be spared. These pleading lecturers
will not even have the self-awareness to realize that they have become
accomplices and enablers in the crime.There will of course be no
consideration for this woman and Akindele's many other victims.
On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 5:57 AM, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <
Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>: Apr 10 11:00AM -0400
My People:
One curious matter here...
Is he Professor Akindele or Professor Akinola?
Sad...
Bolaji Aluko
Okechukwu Ukaga <ukag...@umn.edu>: Apr 10 11:29AM -0500
or Pastor ......
Very sad indeed.
OU
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University of Minnesota Extension Regional Sustainable Development
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Book Review Editor, Environment, Development and Sustainability (
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Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin....@gmail.com>: Apr 10 05:58PM +0100
Such a shame.
The eternal problem of the disjunction between sexual demand and supply.
This man is cruelly demanding '5 times' from an unwiling student while
there are women seeking the same '5 times' or more but cant find.
The university is investigating.
People are rightly expressing outrage.
The girl was creative and bold.
While recognizing the evil represented by this man's behavior, I would like
to contribute another angle- my suspicion that Nigeria needs serious dating
sites where people can go to get their rocks off rather than molesting
students, for example.
Gumtree is a good general purpose site that had a good section for such
purposes till it was regrettably shut down.
Toyin
Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>: Apr 10 12:33PM -0500
Jeez, so this is not a problem of sexual predation by an authority figure
but one of "the eternal problem the disjuncture between sexual demand and
supply." Wow!! So this is not a problem of the abuse of power and sexual
harassment on the part of a superior targeting subordinate victims; rather
it is a problem of the absence of outlets to release libidinal urges. And
the solution is not firm, impartial punishment and deterrence regimes and
arrangements but a dating website where randy, predatory university
lecturers can pick up women for consensual sex. Wow, just wow!!
Now I've heard it all on this listserv.
On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 11:58 AM, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <
Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>: Apr 10 12:06PM -0500
My Facebook update on the matter.
OAU Accounting and Management Professor, Richard Akindele, was recorded in
the process of sexually preying on his student and promising to award her a
pass mark in his course.
Many responders have unequivocally condemned the professor and shown
sympathy for the victim.
But did some responders commend the brave young woman for recording the man
"in the act"? No!
Did they ask whether in fact the student deserved the fail grade in the
first place or was failed by the professor as a tactic of sexual blackmail?
No!
Did they ask how many victims this sexual predator had successfully
violated before this brave, defiant woman undertook this mission of
exposure? No!
Did they stop to ask why a Professor would even have such inappropriate,
unprofessional conversations with his student? No!
Did they inquire into the disciplinary process, if any, that should/would
follow? No!
Did they ask if the young victim has any recourse or avenues of redress
within and without the university? No!
Did they ask how many Akindeles are prowling Nigerian university campuses
and violating their female students in exchange for grades? No!
Did they even ask why she resorted to social media and not report the man's
conduct to higher university authorities? No!
Instead, they have plenty to say about how the voice on the tape may have
been manipulated and may not be that of the professor.
They say she violated the man's privacy and trust.
They ask what the victim is doing in the man's office.
They ask if she's a serious student (why did she fail the course in the
first place, they ask)
They ask if she was not the one that "seduced" or solicited the professor
for the sex-for-marks scheme.
They accuse her, the victim, of a malicious plot to destroy the professor
and his career.
Taking their victim-blaming even further, they ask why she was having such
a conversation with a married man. They are able to sustain this illogic
because they do not reverse the question to ask why the married man was
having such a conversation with his student.
They ask why she did not petition higher university authorities to look
into her grade rather than approach the lecturer.
The saddest part of all this? Most of the accusers, doubters, and
questioners are women, some of whom even said lecturers similarly sexually
preyed upon them when they were undergraduates in Nigerian universities.
Chidi Anthony Opara <chidi...@gmail.com>: Apr 10 10:30AM -0700
It looks like the problem is the "five times". It looks like if the Professor had agreed "to do once", it could have been a "done deal" and we would not have known.
CAO.
"Abidogun, Jamaine M" <JamaineAbidogun@MissouriState.edu>: Apr 10 05:57PM
Dear Prof. Gloria,
Your work was a major inspiration for this work. Your endorsement is sincerely gratifying to read as it brings a true sense of accomplishment.
Thank you,
Jamaine Abidogun
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2018 12:11 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Book Announcement: African Science Education: Gendering Indigenous Knowledge in Nigeria
Congrats. Well done. Can hardly wait to read it.
By coincidence, this weekend I wrapped up a doctoral dissertation supervision for
a candidate in South Africa who masterfully looked at Indigenous Knowledge and Agricultural Science.
I shall order two copies and send him one.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
________________________________
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com> <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Abidogun, Jamaine M <JamaineAbidogun@MissouriState.edu<mailto:JamaineAbi...@MissouriState.edu>>
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2018 4:31 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Book Announcement: African Science Education: Gendering Indigenous Knowledge in Nigeria
We are pleased to announce to our colleagues and friends a collaborative Nigeria/US book on a syncretic approach to Nigeria Secondary Science education curricula development. This model is applicable across disciplines and is germane to the very complex discussions posted here on issues with Western education in Africa.
https://www.routledge.com/African-Science-Education-Gendering-Indigenous-Knowledge-in-Nigeria/Abidogun/p/book/9781138060623<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FAfrican-Science-Education-Gendering-Indigenous-Knowledge-in-Nigeria%2FAbidogun%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781138060623&data=01%7C01%7Cemeagwali%40ccsu.edu%7Ca4d81c4fe6cc485d19b608d5996fbf5b%7C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6%7C0&sdata=v89HY7u4g2J00B3nG6jfvR8n21iKPhF7l%2FOWFIZIUwY%3D&reserved=0>
[cid:image001.png@01D3D0CB.80E84300]
Your support of this collaborative publication is appreciated.
Cheers,
Jamaine Abidogun
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Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu>: Apr 10 03:00PM
The management of the Obafemi Awolowo University, Ile- Ife, has reacted to the scandal involving one of its lecturers, Pastor Richard Akindele, who allegedly requested that a student have sex with him in return for marks.
The university through its spokesman, Abiodun Olanrewaju said, “The university is aware and we are setting up machinery to critically look at the issue to determine the veracity, otherwise there won’t be conclusion.”
The sex -for -marks scandal came to light via a leaked telephone conversation between the lecturer, a professor of management and accounting at Obafemi Awolowo University, Ile -Ife, and a female undergraduate in the school.
In the leaked audio, the student repeatedly addressed the other person in the conversation as ‘Prof . Akindele’, who, later, protested: ‘stop calling my name!’
The leaked conversation suggests that the student had refused the lecturer’s initial sex demand to upgrade her marks and that he wanted to have sex with her five times, before the upgrade, a deal she later rejected.
Find below the audio conversation between the student and the lecturer:
Student: I was really seeing my period Professor Akindele.
Lecturer: Stop mentioning my name. And now nko?
Student: I am not on my period now.
Lecturer: Your boyfriend has done it yesterday?
Student: Is it every time that someone will be doing with the boyfriend? Is it every time you do it with your wife?
Lecturer: Yes
Student: It’s a lie, not possible. So what’s the plan now?
Lecturer: Let ’s have the first one today and then we will do another one tomorrow. Is our agreement not five times?
Student: Is it B that you want to give me or C? Why would it be five times you will knack me?
Lecturer: That’s what I will do.
Student: Prof, you know what? Let me fail it. I can’t do it five times. For what nah? No worry. Thank you, sir.
Lecturer: You are welcome.
http://punchng.com/sex-for-marks-scandal-we-are-critically-looking-into-the-issue-oau/
Sent from my iPhone
"Assensoh, Akwasi B." <aass...@indiana.edu>: Apr 10 04:10PM
SIR Toyin:
Thank you very much for bringing this sad but important issue to our attetion. It makes both salacious and interesting reading! However, my legendary Baba Ijebu would have asked: "Na this be a surprise?"
If one responds, "Yes, that be a surprise!" Baba Ijebu would have responded: "Na, whereya. It's done all over the place?"
Well, was it not at the former University of Ife (now OAU) that a female postgraduate student, with her first degree from Finland, accused her entire Postgraduate Examination Committee of what she described as being "sexed" so many times by the male committee members? She alleged this about the Chairman of her Postgraduate Exam Committee:: "He sexed me three times." She then alleged similarly about the other committee members and, also, even about her External Examiner from Lagos! Having previously studied in Sweden myself, I happened to know of the said Ife postgraduate female student, hence I still vividly remember her complaint. Sadly, the committee still did not pass her. Maybe, they did not "sex her" enough!
Imagine the current OAU sex-for-mark case, allegedly, about Professor Akindele! He, allegedly, wanted to have sex with the undergraduate student five times!! What a sad situation, which should be thoroughly investigated.
A.B. Assensoh.
________________________________________
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 11:00 AM
To: dialogue
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Sex for mark scandal
The management of the Obafemi Awolowo University, Ile- Ife, has reacted to the scandal involving one of its lecturers, Pastor Richard Akindele, who allegedly requested that a student have sex with him in return for marks.
The university through its spokesman, Abiodun Olanrewaju said, “The university is aware and we are setting up machinery to critically look at the issue to determine the veracity, otherwise there won’t be conclusion.”
The sex -for -marks scandal came to light via a leaked telephone conversation between the lecturer, a professor of management and accounting at Obafemi Awolowo University, Ile -Ife, and a female undergraduate in the school.
In the leaked audio, the student repeatedly addressed the other person in the conversation as ‘Prof . Akindele’, who, later, protested: ‘stop calling my name!’
The leaked conversation suggests that the student had refused the lecturer’s initial sex demand to upgrade her marks and that he wanted to have sex with her five times, before the upgrade, a deal she later rejected.
Find below the audio conversation between the student and the lecturer:
Student: I was really seeing my period Professor Akindele.
Lecturer: Stop mentioning my name. And now nko?
Student: I am not on my period now.
Lecturer: Your boyfriend has done it yesterday?
Student: Is it every time that someone will be doing with the boyfriend? Is it every time you do it with your wife?
Lecturer: Yes
Student: It’s a lie, not possible. So what’s the plan now?
Lecturer: Let ’s have the first one today and then we will do another one tomorrow. Is our agreement not five times?
Student: Is it B that you want to give me or C? Why would it be five times you will knack me?
Lecturer: That’s what I will do.
Student: Prof, you know what? Let me fail it. I can’t do it five times. For what nah? No worry. Thank you, sir.
Lecturer: You are welcome.
http://punchng.com/sex-for-marks-scandal-we-are-critically-looking-into-the-issue-oau/
Sent from my iPhone
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Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin....@gmail.com>: Apr 10 06:00PM +0100
God have mercy!-
' Well, was it not at the former University of Ife (now OAU) that a female
postgraduate student, with her first degree from Finland, accused her
entire Postgraduate Examination Committee of what she described as being
"sexed" so many times by the male committee members? She alleged this
about the Chairman of her Postgraduate Exam Committee:: "He sexed me three
times." She then alleged similarly about the other committee members and,
also, even about her External Examiner from Lagos! Having previously
studied in Sweden myself, I happened to know of the said Ife postgraduate
female student, hence I still vividly remember her complaint. Sadly, the
committee still did not pass her. Maybe, they did not "sex her" enough! '
"Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emea...@ccsu.edu>: Apr 10 04:24PM
By the greatest coincidence, the note below just came to my mailbox.
This is how my campus deals with the issue of sexual harassment-
no voyeurism or blow by blow account of the incident.
Institutions should develop mechanism for handling such cases.
The earlier suggestion for an Ombudsman for the system is a great one.
We should pursue that idea and impress ASUU to also
contribute to introducing institutional checks within the organization -
to supplement other mechanisms.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Professor of History
History Department
Central Connecticut State University
________________________________
From: Campus Announcements <Anno...@ccsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 10:55 AM
To: Administrative Departments; Academic Departments; Students-AllActivelyEnrolled
Subject: Sexual misconduct allegations and investigation
Dear Central Family,
You might be aware of an article published today in The Recorder student newspaper outlining alleged sexual misconduct of a faculty member. What I read in the article is truly disturbing and surprising to me. It does not represent who we are as a public institution of higher education or who we are as faculty, mentors, and advisers. At this time, let me be clear: Central Connecticut State University has a no-tolerance policy, and I apologize to our students who have experienced any form of sexual misconduct.
Be assured that I do not take these allegations lightly. Therefore, this morning I have instructed the Provost, the Chief Human Resources Officer, and the Chief Diversity Officer to conduct a comprehensive investigation. Specifically, I have asked our Chief Diversity Officer to review the University’s Sexual Harassment Policy, especially as it relates to the 90-day reporting deadline.
As part of our due diligence, I have also asked an external agency with experience in situations of this nature to conduct a full investigation. Once I receive the results of these investigations, I will determine the next steps and will keep you informed.
I want you to know that we are fully committed to changing the environment in the Theatre Department and on campus. I also wish to assure every one of our students that this is a welcoming, safe place for them.
Sincerely,
Zulma R. Toro
President
Chidi Anthony Opara <chidi...@gmail.com>: Apr 10 05:50AM
PDP is not a person and as such, cannot steal. It was the persons in PDP
that stole and some of them are in APC now. By the way, people in other
parties like AD and ANPP also stole during the time under reference.
CAO.
Shola Adenekan <sholaa...@gmail.com>: Apr 10 04:26AM
Dear All,
Please see the audio below. Yet another evidence of the rot in our
university system.
Ire o.
Shola
Windows Live 2018 <yagb...@hotmail.com>: Apr 10 12:23AM
Ken:
I deplore and condemn torture in all its ramifications ad weapon of war and I wish it were otherwise than the charges against the AND in this regard.
When M&s England was indicted for torture on behalf of the allies I 20p4 I was at the forefront of the condemnations
But Winnie is no Corporal England. Your point on Winnies role on torture is well taken but it must be assessed in the context of the whole struggle as Moses indicated
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu>
Date: 08/04/2018 14:53 (GMT+00:00)
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Hi moses, nothing I said implied much less stated that I believed the anc tortured andkilled indiscriminately. It was a shock when those first newpaper accounts appeared since it ran counter to everyone’s belief in the anc.
I don’t know whatever gave you that impression. I raised it since it was a matter of contention, and when you continue your posting, you stte it was an issue that was debated.
I am disturbed by the uniform condemnation of my call tht the issue be debated here. In fact you are the only one to take up that question, and you retreat in the end with evocation of the fog of war. I would urge you to reconsider the rationalizations for it. No one really believes that torture somehow yields the truth. In this country that has been the vicious argument used in favour of Guantanamo.
As I read your post, it seems clear that the logic of the situation should have led them, and us, to oppose torture, for many reasons; not least the higher moral ground occupied by the anc, and the considerable alienation it risked in it becoming public. The anc was fighting the decent fight; torture and assassination of civilians did not help the movement. I do admire your considered answer and knowledge; but am disappointed in the general indifference to the question from other members of the listserv who seem to have had no trouble in this practices.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
Michigan State University
619 Red Cedar Rd
East Lansing, MI 48824
517-803-8839
har...@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of "meoc...@gmail.com" <meoc...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday 6 April 2018 at 14:19
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Ken,
You're making it seem as though the ANC's military wing tortured and killed indiscriminately. That's not true at all. In fact, Mandela's autobiography makes it clear that the ANC debated all these issues and thereafter painstakingly, carefully, and precisely delineated the boundaries and contours of its violence. The resolution to establish an armed wing after the Sharpeville massacre in 1960 was quite clear that only SABOTAGE operations were authorized. As the name suggests, sabotage was designed to hurt the Apartheid economy by bombing military installations, power plants, and other critical infrastructures that enabled the state to maintain itself and replenish its violent, racist domination. The resolution was also clear that civilians--white civilians-- were off limits and not to be targeted. In other words, violence was designed to be used in measured, well defined ways in conformity with the enlightened principles you've stated. The ANC's sabotage operations DID NOT target civilians, white or black.
That said, the ANC's military wing, Umkomto we Sizwe, was a regimented military organization. Like all military organizations, it punished insubordination, treason, betrayal, and other crimes. It was particularly harsh on moles planted by the apartheid state. It tortured and killed moles because moles got many black people within and without the struggle killed by informing on the movement. There were hundreds of moles in both branches of the ANC, a story of betrayal and apartheid's dirty war that is documented in Jacob Dlamini's book, Askari. Given the damage that moles and internal saboteurs did to the struggle, the increasingly paranoid members of the military wing, some of whom were assassinated even on foreign soil where they thought they were safe, lashed out against people discovered to be moles. In this reaction, some innocent people were falsely accused of spying for the state and tortured. In the fog of war, the luxury of a thorough investigation was often absent, and so accusations alone sometimes sufficed. Mistakes were made. It is inevitable. All violent revolutions make such mistakes, have incidents of "friendly fire," so to speak.
Nonetheless, the fact remains that the ANC did not torture or kill indiscriminately. They punished treason and betrayals of the movement harshly with torture to deter regular black folk and members of the organization from turning coat to spy for the apartheid state. It's easy to sit in judgment over them for adopting such drastically self-preservationist regimens from the comfort of our homes thousands of miles away, temporally and spatially removed form the horror of apartheid. But from their trenches the ANC operatives who were trying to stay alive amidst the onslaught of the apartheid regime had little time for philosophical purity and enlightened principles of war. I am a historian and have studied or read about many violent revolutions. I've yet to read of a clean one where the modern rules of war were consistently observed. It would be great if you could acknowledge this fact even as you espouse the ideals of a humane revolutionary war.
As Gloria said, the ANC demonstrated remarkable restraint by not going after white civilians, whom one could argue were culpable in apartheid since they sustained the system by renewing its electoral mandate and by benefitting from its policies of racial exclusion and privilege.
On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>> wrote:
Gloria, what does this mean for you? That torture or killing of civilians was ok? Remains ok?
I am sure you know there was a debate within the anc on this, too.
As for moral equivalence, I never suggested anything like that.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
Michigan State University
619 Red Cedar Rd<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3D619-2BRed-2BCedar-2BRd-2BEast-2BLansing-2C-2BMI-2B48824-2B517-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwMFaQ&c=nE__W8dFE-shTxStwXtp0A&r=Zy8I_UX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg&m=uQ-wS074SvnjwR1vnhmG_a0ooQ2Gf6S8TJLkLpII23I&s=2Q1mop96q0iQxbTa_qySxdFpjwr-KZCW-9OEg8qvq6o&e=>
East Lansing, MI 48824<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3D619-2BRed-2BCedar-2BRd-2BEast-2BLansing-2C-2BMI-2B48824-2B517-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwMFaQ&c=nE__W8dFE-shTxStwXtp0A&r=Zy8I_UX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg&m=uQ-wS074SvnjwR1vnhmG_a0ooQ2Gf6S8TJLkLpII23I&s=2Q1mop96q0iQxbTa_qySxdFpjwr-KZCW-9OEg8qvq6o&e=>
517<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3D619-2BRed-2BCedar-2BRd-2BEast-2BLansing-2C-2BMI-2B48824-2B517-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwMFaQ&c=nE__W8dFE-shTxStwXtp0A&r=Zy8I_UX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg&m=uQ-wS074SvnjwR1vnhmG_a0ooQ2Gf6S8TJLkLpII23I&s=2Q1mop96q0iQxbTa_qySxdFpjwr-KZCW-9OEg8qvq6o&e=>-803-8839
har...@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emea...@ccsu.edu<mailto:emeagw...@ccsu.edu>>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Friday 6 April 2018 at 09:28
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
"We could not condone on our side what we condemned on theirs."harrow
Ken, there is absolutely no moral equivalence here - unless you want to
run with the hounds and hunt with the hunter.
You forgot to mention that the apartheid state was a nuclear state- with
biowarfare capabilities- backed by most of the Western world
until Jimmy Carter, and later the US Congress and the Black Caucus stepped in.
The ANC was the proverbial goliath fighting with a slingshot.
In fact I would give the ANC a medal for its relative restraint during the anti - apartheid
war and after it, given the highly extraordinary circumstances.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com> <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>>
Sent: Friday, April 6, 2018 12:02 AM
To: usaafricadialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Hi shina
You are dodging my question. I totally favour the anc having the burning spear. Of course the military response was legit. But not all targets are legitimate in warfare, not at all! There are war conventions, Geneva conventions, there are legitimate targets and illegitimate targets. Civilians are not legitimate targets, and torture is not a legit practice. No one can convince me that the anc needed to torture, or that killing children Is legitimate.
I understand the paradoxes; I’ve read the canon of revolutionary actions and beliefs. But even in a revolution, one choses to kill civilians or not. That is the subject camus took up in The Rebel and especially Les Justes, his play about the assassination of the czar.
It is the subject of mudimbe’s first novel as well. It is not new as an issue.
I am not preaching passivism, or non-violent resistance, which you are attributing to me.
So, how do we, collectively, assume the responsibility for supporting a cause? Moses spoke of the fog of war. Well, that dodges the question. Maybe winnie was not really responsible; others on this list have much better knowledge of the answer to that question, so I will defer to them. But I stand firm on my first position, that there are limits, there are such things as war crimes, crimes against humanity, conventions like the Geneva convention, and those things matter, even in the midst or war, or rather, especially in the midst of war. I actively supported the anc for years, especially in east lansing, so I can raise the question concerning the organization that I aligned myself with.
Lastly, the apartheid regime was vicious: it did target civilians, it tortured and blackmailed many people; it slaughtered women who marched in sharpeville, they killed steve biko and thousands of others, illegitimately. I doubt I could have forgiven them after the war. But the atrocities were reason to condemn them.
Get it? They were a marker of the illegitimacy of the regime. We could not condone on our side what we condemned on theirs.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
Michigan State University
619 Red Cedar Rd<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3D619-2BRed-2BCedar-2BRd-2BEast-2BLansing-2C-2BMI-2B48824-2B517-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwMFaQ&c=nE__W8dFE-shTxStwXtp0A&r=Zy8I_UX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg&m=uQ-wS074SvnjwR1vnhmG_a0ooQ2Gf6S8TJLkLpII23I&s=2Q1mop96q0iQxbTa_qySxdFpjwr-KZCW-9OEg8qvq6o&e=>
East Lansing, MI 48824<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3D619-2BRed-2BCedar-2BRd-2BEast-2BLansing-2C-2BMI-2B48824-2B517-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwMFaQ&c=nE__W8dFE-shTxStwXtp0A&r=Zy8I_UX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg&m=uQ-wS074SvnjwR1vnhmG_a0ooQ2Gf6S8TJLkLpII23I&s=2Q1mop96q0iQxbTa_qySxdFpjwr-KZCW-9OEg8qvq6o&e=>
517<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3D619-2BRed-2BCedar-2BRd-2BEast-2BLansing-2C-2BMI-2B48824-2B517-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=DwMFaQ&c=nE__W8dFE-shTxStwXtp0A&r=Zy8I_UX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg&m=uQ-wS074SvnjwR1vnhmG_a0ooQ2Gf6S8TJLkLpII23I&s=2Q1mop96q0iQxbTa_qySxdFpjwr-KZCW-9OEg8qvq6o&e=>-803-8839
har...@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Windows Live 2018 <yagb...@hotmail.com<mailto:yagb...@hotmail.com>>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Thursday 5 April 2018 at 18:57
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Ken:
Note my caveat: If we choose the violent revolutionary path. If the ANC had not developed a military wing to counter the miasma of Apartheid we probably would not have a liberated South Africa today. It was a singular scenario which buttressed the fact; those who make a peaceful change impossible make a violent change inevitable.
The Apartheid regime knew they were running an inhuman anti people system hence the violent repression.
The ANC and its variegated offshoots could not confront the system with the hymns of ' let my people go' alone. ( we know the biblical archetype was not confined to such hymn singing alone since Moses was a military leader as well)
Anti Apartheid forces including the Nigerian govt at the time knew use of force might be necessary to dislodge the regime. It was not an easy choice to make. Those who force that choice on the opposition take the blame.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>>
Date: 04/04/2018 23:04 (GMT+00:00)
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
[Boxbe]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttps-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.boxbe.com-5 Foverview-2526d-253DDwMFaQ-2526c-253DnE-5F-5FW8dFE-2DshTxStwXtp0A-2526r-253DZy8I-5FUX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg-2526m-253Dio-2DBnJn9-2DfnuBgh4elAuoyWmQi0CXSrf42RIeUewdAE-2526s-253DJKdIKz21KUvN6J-5FtePFZ-5FaJhJEvcUKBrgYbUaswO-2Dy8-2526e-253D-26data-3D01-257C01-257Cemeagwali-2540ccsu.edu-257C8dd70b5f44864eed7dbd08d59bb34adb-257C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6-257C0-26sdata-3Ds5LeJPogBawvA5-252F5pkudfwJEdCjAwRfWY1jboPGjjzE-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=nE__W8dFE-shTxStwXtp0A&r=Zy8I_UX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg&m=_UgQFt2k8nhrsMpyFCwD8woV8LLo3XIPsS3qV_e2CJg&s=i67k3NazNde61ZNx9QCYoezQpzmcuL-5Ig4rIs9FyFU&e=>[http://www.boxbe.com/stfopen?tc_serial=38078580306&tc_rand=1158742996&utm_source=stf&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADD&utm_content=001]This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (har...@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>) Add cleanupKenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu>: Apr 09 09:29PM -0500
I like to be able to agree with you, and friends on this list. I certainly agree with your statement. Winnie was a strong inspiration for many of us, for decades.
None of us is a saint, meaning, our actions are above any judgment. Winnie, too, was not the issue here, but the tactics her branch of the movement practiced. Moses cited them in one of his resumes.
My interest in this thread, in fact, is not winnie, but the larger one that you address in your first sentence, which I find the crucial issue.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
Michigan State University
619 Red Cedar Rd
East Lansing, MI 48824
517-803-8839
har...@msu.edu
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Windows Live 2018 <yagb...@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday 9 April 2018 at 19:23
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Ken:
I deplore and condemn torture in all its ramifications ad weapon of war and I wish it were otherwise than the charges against the AND in this regard.
When M&s England was indicted for torture on behalf of the allies I 20p4 I was at the forefront of the condemnations
But Winnie is no Corporal England. Your point on Winnies role on torture is well taken but it must be assessed in the context of the whole struggle as Moses indicated
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu>
Date: 08/04/2018 14:53 (GMT+00:00)
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Hi moses, nothing I said implied much less stated that I believed the anc tortured andkilled indiscriminately. It was a shock when those first newpaper accounts appeared since it ran counter to everyone’s belief in the anc.
I don’t know whatever gave you that impression. I raised it since it was a matter of contention, and when you continue your posting, you stte it was an issue that was debated.
I am disturbed by the uniform condemnation of my call tht the issue be debated here. In fact you are the only one to take up that question, and you retreat in the end with evocation of the fog of war. I would urge you to reconsider the rationalizations for it. No one really believes that torture somehow yields the truth. In this country that has been the vicious argument used in favour of Guantanamo.
As I read your post, it seems clear that the logic of the situation should have led them, and us, to oppose torture, for many reasons; not least the higher moral ground occupied by the anc, and the considerable alienation it risked in it becoming public. The anc was fighting the decent fight; torture and assassination of civilians did not help the movement. I do admire your considered answer and knowledge; but am disappointed in the general indifference to the question from other members of the listserv who seem to have had no trouble in this practices.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
Michigan State University
619 Red Cedar Rd
East Lansing, MI 48824
517-803-8839
har...@msu.edu
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of "meoc...@gmail.com" <meoc...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday 6 April 2018 at 14:19
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Ken,
You're making it seem as though the ANC's military wing tortured and killed indiscriminately. That's not true at all. In fact, Mandela's autobiography makes it clear that the ANC debated all these issues and thereafter painstakingly, carefully, and precisely delineated the boundaries and contours of its violence. The resolution to establish an armed wing after the Sharpeville massacre in 1960 was quite clear that only SABOTAGE operations were authorized. As the name suggests, sabotage was designed to hurt the Apartheid economy by bombing military installations, power plants, and other critical infrastructures that enabled the state to maintain itself and replenish its violent, racist domination. The resolution was also clear that civilians--white civilians-- were off limits and not to be targeted. In other words, violence was designed to be used in measured, well defined ways in conformity with the enlightened principles you've stated. The ANC's sabotage operations DID NOT target civilians, white or black.
That said, the ANC's military wing, Umkomto we Sizwe, was a regimented military organization. Like all military organizations, it punished insubordination, treason, betrayal, and other crimes. It was particularly harsh on moles planted by the apartheid state. It tortured and killed moles because moles got many black people within and without the struggle killed by informing on the movement. There were hundreds of moles in both branches of the ANC, a story of betrayal and apartheid's dirty war that is documented in Jacob Dlamini's book, Askari. Given the damage that moles and internal saboteurs did to the struggle, the increasingly paranoid members of the military wing, some of whom were assassinated even on foreign soil where they thought they were safe, lashed out against people discovered to be moles. In this reaction, some innocent people were falsely accused of spying for the state and tortured. In the fog of war, the luxury of a thorough investigation was often absent, and so accusations alone sometimes sufficed. Mistakes were made. It is inevitable. All violent revolutions make such mistakes, have incidents of "friendly fire," so to speak.
Nonetheless, the fact remains that the ANC did not torture or kill indiscriminately. They punished treason and betrayals of the movement harshly with torture to deter regular black folk and members of the organization from turning coat to spy for the apartheid state. It's easy to sit in judgment over them for adopting such drastically self-preservationist regimens from the comfort of our homes thousands of miles away, temporally and spatially removed form the horror of apartheid. But from their trenches the ANC operatives who were trying to stay alive amidst the onslaught of the apartheid regime had little time for philosophical purity and enlightened principles of war. I am a historian and have studied or read about many violent revolutions. I've yet to read of a clean one where the modern rules of war were consistently observed. It would be great if you could acknowledge this fact even as you espouse the ideals of a humane revolutionary war.
As Gloria said, the ANC demonstrated remarkable restraint by not going after white civilians, whom one could argue were culpable in apartheid since they sustained the system by renewing its electoral mandate and by benefitting from its policies of racial exclusion and privilege.
On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu> wrote:
Gloria, what does this mean for you? That torture or killing of civilians was ok? Remains ok?
I am sure you know there was a debate within the anc on this, too.
As for moral equivalence, I never suggested anything like that.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
Michigan State University
619 Red Cedar Rd
East Lansing, MI 48824
517-803-8839
har...@msu.edu
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emea...@ccsu.edu>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday 6 April 2018 at 09:28
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
"We could not condone on our side what we condemned on theirs."harrow
Ken, there is absolutely no moral equivalence here - unless you want to
run with the hounds and hunt with the hunter.
You forgot to mention that the apartheid state was a nuclear state- with
biowarfare capabilities- backed by most of the Western world
until Jimmy Carter, and later the US Congress and the Black Caucus stepped in.
The ANC was the proverbial goliath fighting with a slingshot.
In fact I would give the ANC a medal for its relative restraint during the anti - apartheid
war and after it, given the highly extraordinary circumstances.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 6, 2018 12:02 AM
To: usaafricadialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Hi shina
You are dodging my question. I totally favour the anc having the burning spear. Of course the military response was legit. But not all targets are legitimate in warfare, not at all! There are war conventions, Geneva conventions, there are legitimate targets and illegitimate targets. Civilians are not legitimate targets, and torture is not a legit practice. No one can convince me that the anc needed to torture, or that killing children Is legitimate.
I understand the paradoxes; I’ve read the canon of revolutionary actions and beliefs. But even in a revolution, one choses to kill civilians or not. That is the subject camus took up in The Rebel and especially Les Justes, his play about the assassination of the czar.
It is the subject of mudimbe’s first novel as well. It is not new as an issue.
I am not preaching passivism, or non-violent resistance, which you are attributing to me.
So, how do we, collectively, assume the responsibility for supporting a cause? Moses spoke of the fog of war. Well, that dodges the question. Maybe winnie was not really responsible; others on this list have much better knowledge of the answer to that question, so I will defer to them. But I stand firm on my first position, that there are limits, there are such things as war crimes, crimes against humanity, conventions like the Geneva convention, and those things matter, even in the midst or war, or rather, especially in the midst of war. I actively supported the anc for years, especially in east lansing, so I can raise the question concerning the organization that I aligned myself with.
Lastly, the apartheid regime was vicious: it did target civilians, it tortured and blackmailed many people; it slaughtered women who marched in sharpeville, they killed steve biko and thousands of others, illegitimately. I doubt I could have forgiven them after the war. But the atrocities were reason to condemn them.
Get it? They were a marker of the illegitimacy of the regime. We could not condone on our side what we condemned on theirs.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
Michigan State University
619 Red Cedar Rd
East Lansing, MI 48824
517-803-8839
har...@msu.edu
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Windows Live 2018 <yagb...@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Thursday 5 April 2018 at 18:57
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Ken:
Note my caveat: If we choose the violent revolutionary path. If the ANC had not developed a military wing to counter the miasma of Apartheid we probably would not have a liberated South Africa today. It was a singular scenario which buttressed the fact; those who make a peaceful change impossible make a violent change inevitable.
The Apartheid regime knew they were running an inhuman anti people system hence the violent repression.
The ANC and its variegated offshoots could not confront the system with the hymns of ' let my people go' alone. ( we know the biblical archetype was not confined to such hymn singing alone since Moses was a military leader as well)
Anti Apartheid forces including the Nigerian govt at the time knew use of force might be necessary to dislodge the regime. It was not an easy choice to make. Those who force that choice on the opposition take the blame.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu>
Date: 04/04/2018 23:04 (GMT+00:00)
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
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Really? No limits? No moral considerations?
I can’t believe that we have no choices, no limits to what we would condone. How does that make us better than them??
This has been the dilemma of camus, and doubtless many other thinkers. Anyway, instead of rehearsing the arguments and issues, I’ll put in 2 cents. We have to imagine we are better than the torturers and mass murderers. We might fight them tooth and nail, but not “at any cost.”
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
Michigan State University
619 Red Cedar Rd
East Lansing, MI 48824
517-803-8839
har...@msu.edu
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Windows Live 2018 <yagb...@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday 4 April 2018 at 17:11
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Impeccable analysis Moses! Once it's a revolution both sides hands drip with blood.
A girls got to do what a girls got to do!
The Bolsheviks staged a military coup lined up the Czar and his family and executed them in cold blood. Prior to that the Czar had been authorizing the killing of the Bolsheviks
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>
Date: 04/04/2018 19:15 (GMT+00:00)
To: USAAfricaDialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
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Ken,
I strongly disagree with your take. I'm pressed for time, but three points:
1. That Winnie "had Stompie killed" is not a settled fact but a contested probability. Her Mandela United Football Club bodyguard whose testimony resulted in her conviction and enabled him to obtain a much-reduced sentence for his crime of killing Stompie confessed in jail that he was an informant planted around Winnie by the apartheid regime's intelligence services. In fact he recanted twice. First he testified that Winnie ordered Stompie's killing. Then he confessed on tape from jail that he feared that Stompie had discovered that he was a state informant and was about to tell Winnie, causing him to kill Stompie on the false ground that he, Stompie, was an informant, an askari. Then, during the TRC, the former bodyguard again went back to his original story that Winnie had instructed him to kill Stompie. Since Winnie's conviction, some operatives of the apartheid regime's intelligence andMoses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>:
DOYIN AGUORU
Apr 10, 2018, 7:19:46 PM4/10/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Dear Prof Ochonu,
I am actively following developments on this issue.
I am glad that another courageous act has taken place and it is in public domain.
I haven't been regular on FB lately but I'm in agreement with your queries and summations.
I am curiously observing what our pressure groups intend to and will do.
Dr Doyin Aguoru
On Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 9:04 PM Osakue Omoera <osakue...@gmail.com> wrote:
This is indeed very sad.
On Apr 10, 2018 7:03 PM, <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
<akiiki.b...@uni-bayreuth.de>Editor/Publisher:
> email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
"Abidogun, Jamaine M" <Jamaine...@MissouriState.edu>: Apr 10 05:57PM
Dear Prof. Gloria,
Your work was a major inspiration for this work. Your endorsement is sincerely gratifying to read as it brings a true sense of accomplishment.
Thank you,
Jamaine Abidogun
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2018 12:11 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Book Announcement: African Science Education: Gendering Indigenous Knowledge in Nigeria
Congrats. Well done. Can hardly wait to read it.
By coincidence, this weekend I wrapped up a doctoral dissertation supervision for
a candidate in South Africa who masterfully looked at Indigenous Knowledge and Agricultural Science.
I shall order two copies and send him one.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com> <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Abidogun, Jamaine M <Jamaine...@MissouriState.edu<mailto:Jamaine...@MissouriState.edu>>
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2018 4:31 PM
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Book Announcement: African Science Education: Gendering Indigenous Knowledge in Nigeria
We are pleased to announce to our colleagues and friends a collaborative Nigeria/US book on a syncretic approach to Nigeria Secondary Science education curricula development. This model is applicable across disciplines and is germane to the very complex discussions posted here on issues with Western education in Africa.
https://www.routledge.com/African-Science-Education-Gendering-Indigenous-Knowledge-in-Nigeria/Abidogun/p/book/9781138060623<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FAfrican-Science-Education-Gendering-Indigenous-Knowledge-in-Nigeria%2FAbidogun%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781138060623&data=01%7C01%7Cemeagwali%40ccsu.edu%7Ca4d81c4fe6cc485d19b608d5996fbf5b%7C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6%7C0&sdata=v89HY7u4g2J00B3nG6jfvR8n21iKPhF7l%2FOWFIZIUwY%3D&reserved=0>
[cid:image0...@01D3D0CB.80E84300]
Your support of this collaborative publication is appreciated.
Cheers,
Jamaine Abidogun
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har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of "meoc...@gmail.com" <meoc...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday 6 April 2018 at 14:19
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Ken,
You're making it seem as though the ANC's military wing tortured and killed indiscriminately. That's not true at all. In fact, Mandela's autobiography makes it clear that the ANC debated all these issues and thereafter painstakingly, carefully, and precisely delineated the boundaries and contours of its violence. The resolution to establish an armed wing after the Sharpeville massacre in 1960 was quite clear that only SABOTAGE operations were authorized. As the name suggests, sabotage was designed to hurt the Apartheid economy by bombing military installations, power plants, and other critical infrastructures that enabled the state to maintain itself and replenish its violent, racist domination. The resolution was also clear that civilians--white civilians-- were off limits and not to be targeted. In other words, violence was designed to be used in measured, well defined ways in conformity with the enlightened principles you've stated. The ANC's sabotage operations DID NOT target civilians, white or black.
That said, the ANC's military wing, Umkomto we Sizwe, was a regimented military organization. Like all military organizations, it punished insubordination, treason, betrayal, and other crimes. It was particularly harsh on moles planted by the apartheid state. It tortured and killed moles because moles got many black people within and without the struggle killed by informing on the movement. There were hundreds of moles in both branches of the ANC, a story of betrayal and apartheid's dirty war that is documented in Jacob Dlamini's book, Askari. Given the damage that moles and internal saboteurs did to the struggle, the increasingly paranoid members of the military wing, some of whom were assassinated even on foreign soil where they thought they were safe, lashed out against people discovered to be moles. In this reaction, some innocent people were falsely accused of spying for the state and tortured. In the fog of war, the luxury of a thorough investigation was often absent, and so accusations alone sometimes sufficed. Mistakes were made. It is inevitable. All violent revolutions make such mistakes, have incidents of "friendly fire," so to speak.
Nonetheless, the fact remains that the ANC did not torture or kill indiscriminately. They punished treason and betrayals of the movement harshly with torture to deter regular black folk and members of the organization from turning coat to spy for the apartheid state. It's easy to sit in judgment over them for adopting such drastically self-preservationist regimens from the comfort of our homes thousands of miles away, temporally and spatially removed form the horror of apartheid. But from their trenches the ANC operatives who were trying to stay alive amidst the onslaught of the apartheid regime had little time for philosophical purity and enlightened principles of war. I am a historian and have studied or read about many violent revolutions. I've yet to read of a clean one where the modern rules of war were consistently observed. It would be great if you could acknowledge this fact even as you espouse the ideals of a humane revolutionary war.
As Gloria said, the ANC demonstrated remarkable restraint by not going after white civilians, whom one could argue were culpable in apartheid since they sustained the system by renewing its electoral mandate and by benefitting from its policies of racial exclusion and privilege.
On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>> wrote:
Gloria, what does this mean for you? That torture or killing of civilians was ok? Remains ok?
I am sure you know there was a debate within the anc on this, too.
As for moral equivalence, I never suggested anything like that.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
Michigan State University
har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emea...@ccsu.edu<mailto:emea...@ccsu.edu>>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Friday 6 April 2018 at 09:28
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>>
har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Windows Live 2018 <yagb...@hotmail.com<mailto:yagb...@hotmail.com>>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Thursday 5 April 2018 at 18:57
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
Ken:
Note my caveat: If we choose the violent revolutionary path. If the ANC had not developed a military wing to counter the miasma of Apartheid we probably would not have a liberated South Africa today. It was a singular scenario which buttressed the fact; those who make a peaceful change impossible make a violent change inevitable.
The Apartheid regime knew they were running an inhuman anti people system hence the violent repression.
The ANC and its variegated offshoots could not confront the system with the hymns of ' let my people go' alone. ( we know the biblical archetype was not confined to such hymn singing alone since Moses was a military leader as well)
Anti Apartheid forces including the Nigerian govt at the time knew use of force might be necessary to dislodge the regime. It was not an easy choice to make. Those who force that choice on the opposition take the blame.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Kenneth Harrow <har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>>
Date: 04/04/2018 23:04 (GMT+00:00)
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Winnie Mandela
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