Once again, Charlie Hebdo provokes Muslim sensibilities
Cornelius Hamelberg
There’s provocation defined as “action or speech that makes someone angry, especially deliberately” and there’s madness , the sometimes seemingly mad / insane reaction to certain types of provocation as in the old Saro Krio saying, of my Yoruba grandmother’s King James Bible generation, that “provocation is next to madness”
In accordance with Sunnism there are The Five Pillars of Islam and there’s the five roots/ principles the Usul al Din of Shia Islam ( ie.Tawhid ( the unity of God) Adl ( God’s Justice) Nabuwat ( Prophethood), Imamat (The Holy Imams), Qiyamah (The Resurrection)
With pavlovian expectations, Charlie Hebdo is at it again – this time their so called satirical illustration is that of an erect giant penis , said to be “the sixth pillar of Islam.”.
A new provocation from Charlie Hebdo , new death threats
They are of course expecting Muslims to react violently as Muslims have done in the past, with the Muhammad Cartoons ( Denmark) Lars Vilks canine portrait of the Prophet of Islam (Sweden) and the earlier Charlie Hebdo attacks ( France) which prove that Charlie Hebdo know what they are doing and are doing what they do because they expect the same results , so that they can all shout in unison : TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
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Abolaji Adekeye
Kenneth Harrow
Dear abolaji
I agree on freedom of satire, although the U.S. made fun of black people in the most distasteful of ways in public media, feeding revolting images to children, imparting the notion of the inferiority of black people, of Mexicans, and of foreigners. When you assert a claim like this, ask what would be the worst case scenario. In Rwanda, mocking tutsis was part of the public media that encouraged genocide. Would you permit that? Americans believe in first amendment rights, and I’d support that but only up to limits, i.e., when the speech leads directly to harming people it should be stopped. Canadians, French, limit speech along those lines. Perhaps Nigeria might see reason in not celebrating genocidal speech, just as Rwanda does.
In any event, the limits have to be conceived and debated for the claim to be meaningful
Finally, I believe many people misunderstood Charlie hebdo’s cartoons. That too is a problem, since the islamists acted on their own interpretations and shot people as a result
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Abolaji Adekeye <blargeo...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 00:29
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Once again, Charlie Hebdo provokes Muslim sensibilities
I want to ask like Salman -Is nothing sacred?
I'll answer by posing another - Who determines what is allowed and what is hallowed?
It is rather complex but I believe nothing should be immuned to satire. Nothing should curtail freedom of expression except superior expression. We should look at the brighter side of things. We appear too uptight when our totems, our sacralised absolutes are interrogated, critiqued or lampooned. The Life of Brian and Jesus christ superstar did not provoke bombings or any killing spree. Although there where boycott of the movies by the offended.
I believe personally that the provocateurs are those who prevent freedom of expression and aim to foist their creed and belief on the rest of us from their temples, mosques, madrasal or churches. They espouse their divisive messages from compromised lecterns and pulpits but are quick to convulse in apoplectic fits of righteous indignation at any positions or expositions opposed to theirs.
On Nov 7, 2017 12:03, "Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju" <toyin....@gmail.com> wrote:
terrible
On 6 November 2017 at 19:47, Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:
There’s provocation defined as “action or speech that makes someone angry, especially deliberately” and there’s madness , the sometimes seemingly mad / insane reaction to certain types of provocation as in the old Saro Krio saying, of my Yoruba grandmother’s King James Bible generation, that “provocation is next to madness”
In accordance with Sunnism there are The Five Pillars of Islam and there’s the five roots/ principles the Usul al Din of Shia Islam ( ie.Tawhid ( the unity of God) Adl ( God’s Justice) Nabuwat ( Prophethood), Imamat (The Holy Imams), Qiyamah (The Resurrection)
With pavlovian expectations, Charlie Hebdo is at it again – this time their so called satirical illustration is that of an erect giant penis , said to be “the sixth pillar of Islam.”.
A new provocation from Charlie Hebdo , new death threats
They are of course expecting Muslims to react violently as Muslims have done in the past, with the Muhammad Cartoons ( Denmark) Lars Vilks canine portrait of the Prophet of Islam (Sweden) and the earlier Charlie Hebdo attacks ( France) which prove that Charlie Hebdo know what they are doing and are doing what they do because they expect the same results , so that they can all shout in unison : TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Abolaji Adekeye
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Cornelius Hamelberg
“It’s easy to see without looking too far
That not much is really sacred” ( It’s alright ma)
I don’t know which Salman you’re talking about, since there’s the good Salman, Salman al-Farsi and the other one, the arrogant hypocrite whose main claim to fame is as the author of “ The Satanic Verses”. Still swishing his rhetorical tail he's the kind of bloke that’s most likely to ask, “ Is anything sacred?” Really Sally? ( My greatest nightmare is of the Swedish Academy offering him the Nobel Prize for anything)
My friend Collins ( an artist from St. Lucia) is still crying in my ear that he was thrown out of a mosque in Stockholm, because he entered the premises carrying a wooden cross…
There are those who may have swum the seven seas and yet despite all the historical evidence want to maintain that Arab slavery was”humane”: That "the Arabs were humane and familial in their treatment of their slaves" is indisputable”. The castration of African slaves who took care of the women in some of Islam’s harems was “humane”? Perhaps , we need to do another definition of the word “humane”.
In some cases/ many cases it is the Universal norm vs the local norm.
I think that even whilst reaching for Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as if it is authored by The Omnipotent Himself and imprinted in the souls of all the men and women that He created - at the same time we don’t have to lose sight of our unequal rates of growth/ progress/mental or spiritual development and what’s known as ethical relativism - the existence of local cultures and local standards which means that within our own reasonable limits of understanding, we at least respect one another and are sensitive to for instance what Islam/ Judaism / Christianity etc hold sacred. It is with this in mind that we are in agreement with Oga Falola’s first person preachment just the other day, the basis for his rejecting certain postings and thereby his warning to all of us to not attempt any more of that kind of fruitless nonsense: “I thought that all religions and cultures preach that one must never rejoice at this kind of misfortune.”
Ladies and Gentlemen, just because a Muslim man is accused or rape does not warrant another provocative cartoon from Charlie Hebdo suggesting that the erect phallus is now the additional sixth pillar of Islam, no more than the architecture of the church throughout the ages symbolically represents the vagina - according to John Allegro’s “ The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross”
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju has rightly hit the nail on the head with the question; “to what degree is this latest cartoon from charlie hebdo serious critique and to what degree is it empty mockery?” Well, they mocked Jesus too, didn’t they, on his golgotha journey to his crucifixion? The answer of course is it’s entirely a matter of MOCKERY - pandering to their target audience the secular -Islamophobic and the Jihadist Muslim. “Mischief thou art afoot” and That too is not crying out for any further explanation. The ethos is that the accused is viewed as a holier-than thou and so it gives kuffar charlie great joy that this Muslim in particular has been accused of rape, since they have cause to hate him...
Sweden today : Police report filed after Swedish daycare listens to Pippi Longstocking stories
In the meantime whilst Western liberalism is forever yapping about “Freedom of speech” the following people are persona non grata in Merry England if there’s is the intention to exercise a little bit of that freedom
Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch banned from entering the UK
Pamela Geller ditto
The Hon Minister Louis Farrakhan - believe it or not banned from entering the UK to preach
The late Dr. Tony Martin was also banned from speaking engagements in the UK
Truth a poem by Patrick Kavanagh
On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 09:30:56 UTC+1, Abolaji Adekeye wrote:
I want to ask like Salman -Is nothing sacred?I'll answer by posing another - Who determines what is allowed and what is hallowed?It is rather complex but I believe nothing should be immuned to satire. Nothing should curtail freedom of expression except superior expression. We should look at the brighter side of things. We appear too uptight when our totems, our sacralised absolutes are interrogated, critiqued or lampooned. The Life of Brian and Jesus christ superstar did not provoke bombings or any killing spree. Although there where boycott of the movies by the offended.I believe personally that the provocateurs are those who prevent freedom of expression and aim to foist their creed and belief on the rest of us from their temples, mosques, madrasal or churches. They espouse their divisive messages from compromised lecterns and pulpits but are quick to convulse in apoplectic fits of righteous indignation at any positions or expositions opposed to theirs.
On Nov 7, 2017 12:03, "Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju" <toyin....@gmail.com> wrote:
terrible
On 6 November 2017 at 19:47, Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:
There’s provocation defined as “action or speech that makes someone angry, especially deliberately” and there’s madness , the sometimes seemingly mad / insane reaction to certain types of provocation as in the old Saro Krio saying, of my Yoruba grandmother’s King James Bible generation, that “provocation is next to madness”
In accordance with Sunnism there are The Five Pillars of Islam and there’s the five roots/ principles the Usul al Din of Shia Islam ( ie.Tawhid ( the unity of God) Adl ( God’s Justice) Nabuwat ( Prophethood), Imamat (The Holy Imams), Qiyamah (The Resurrection)
With pavlovian expectations, Charlie Hebdo is at it again – this time their so called satirical illustration is that of an erect giant penis , said to be “the sixth pillar of Islam.”.
A new provocation from Charlie Hebdo , new death threats
They are of course expecting Muslims to react violently as Muslims have done in the past, with the Muhammad Cartoons ( Denmark) Lars Vilks canine portrait of the Prophet of Islam (Sweden) and the earlier Charlie Hebdo attacks ( France) which prove that Charlie Hebdo know what they are doing and are doing what they do because they expect the same results , so that they can all shout in unison : TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Kenneth Harrow
To add to cornelius’s point, 90% of men transported across the desert as slaves were castrated, and a high percentage died. It was never humane, though “chattel” slavery on western plantations was exceptionally brutal. Eventually plantation style slavery spread beyond the western hemisphere—after all it was a feature of sugar plantations in the islands off the west African coast. It came to northern Nigeria as well
Anyway, … arguing about the humanity of slavery is a real stretch.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 13:04
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Once again, Charlie Hebdo provokes Muslim sensibilities
“It’s easy to see without looking too far
Kenneth Harrow
Dear abolaji
Seems we’ve been round this one before. Speech that mocks, without causing direct harm, should be unchecked. But even as I say that, I can’t help but remember when that Danish cartoon mocked mohammed, there were deaths of Christians in india and northern Nigeria as a result. Fine, we can debate that over and over. Whoever publishes a cartoon, in a context where the cartoon will light a fire, has to be held accountable. Before the law? Depends on the context.
When Soyinka said he stood (as he always does) for freedom of expression for rushdie after the fatwa, he too was threatened, and it was a fight to get the afr lit assn to issue a statement in support of Soyinka.
In the case of steppinfetchit etc etc., there was, of course,the times, where racism was normalized.
But so too was lynching. I believe the atmosphere created by the vile expressions of racism permitted lynching to become relatively acceptable in some quarters.
I don’t have more time, except to affirm, as strongly as I can, that people who don’t understand the politics of Charlie Hebdo and its cartoons really are exposing their ignorance if they think the journal is anti-muslim. It is not. It is very much a leftist journal, one opposed to the fundamentalisms of the muslims and Christians and jews, and any other.
Their satire is grounded in French symbols which ignorant readers don’t get.
I don’t get it all the time either, but I am humble enough to ask my French friends before I go around pronouncing on their views. And since I’ve met someone who worked there, I feel very sure in my statement of the political orientation.
Rwanda broadcasted, on radio mille collines, that iyenzi should have their legs shortened (i.e. hacked off) and the rest sent back north (i.e. thrown in rivers). They were calling for killings, following the extremist hutu positions taken in 92 and 93. It was part of the genocide. Speech in preparation of and during genocide is part of war, and no one at war allows enemy propaganda to be broadcast in their own country.
Quite simply, free speech isn’t an absolute, any more than any other right.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Abolaji Adekeye <blargeo...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:53
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Once again, Charlie Hebdo provokes Muslim sensibilities
Alagba Harrow,
I agree with you when you refer to the black face, steppen fetchit and other ways in which blacks where mocked in America. How many whites were murdered as a result? Blacks, victims instead appropriated the derogatory word Nigga and pitched it right back at the badtsmen.
The Rwanda episode and others are quite unfortunate and tragic. The derogatory nyenzi " cockroach " and all that negative jazz. But pardon me sir, if you call me cockroach, my riposte will be to call you henroach. My henroach. I won't come slaughtering people for that. People resort to their fist when words fail them or they believe some preconceived primeval notions of honor have been breached.
Each society will have to find a balance in the see saw of freedom versus responsibility and obligations. For example I have been conditioned by my Yoruba upbringing never to use a person's disability against them. Yet I schooled in the North where I had a buddy blind in one eye and was therefore called John one, short for John one eyed. Another was called Musa accident because he got some burns in a fire accident. I was never able to bring myself to call any of these guys the nicknames they so enjoyed. I cannot call a gurugu, gurugu but I'll call a spade a spade.
I do not think the fear of fundamentalists should stop Charlie Hebdo from expressing what has been observed, also by lots of people afraid to discuss in public, from ISIS to Boko Haram to The Zak Zakkyy brigade. How they have elevated sex, male penetrative sex to the level of divine reward for Jihad. The honor killings of women, the overarching and overbearing patriarchy. CH, by which I refer to Hebdo and not the highly esteemed Hamelberg, is inviting a soul searching, an introspection that is avoided by the Ummah. While the West is said to be degenerate and nihilistic, the Jihadists are enticing and radicalising young boys and young adults with the promise of pussy galore and I'm not talking movies.
The same rhetorics that attended the fatwa on Rushdie is what is repeating itself today. Then, the groundswell of opinion was that he brought it upon himself. He knew what he was doing. He courted the fatwa. He blasphemed. He deserves death. Charlie Hebdo has killed nobody. We should not continue to shield killers or would be killers because they can kill and writers can write. Satire is not an instruction to kill neither is it an invitation to one.
On Nov 8, 2017 14:43, "Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju" <toyin....@gmail.com> wrote:
to what degree is this latest cartoon from charlie hebdo serious critique and to what degree is it empty mockery?
toyin
On 8 November 2017 at 06:29, Abolaji Adekeye <blargeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
I want to ask like Salman -Is nothing sacred?
I'll answer by posing another - Who determines what is allowed and what is hallowed?
It is rather complex but I believe nothing should be immuned to satire. Nothing should curtail freedom of expression except superior expression. We should look at the brighter side of things. We appear too uptight when our totems, our sacralised absolutes are interrogated, critiqued or lampooned. The Life of Brian and Jesus christ superstar did not provoke bombings or any killing spree. Although there where boycott of the movies by the offended.
I believe personally that the provocateurs are those who prevent freedom of expression and aim to foist their creed and belief on the rest of us from their temples, mosques, madrasal or churches. They espouse their divisive messages from compromised lecterns and pulpits but are quick to convulse in apoplectic fits of righteous indignation at any positions or expositions opposed to theirs.
On Nov 7, 2017 12:03, "Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju" <toyin....@gmail.com> wrote:
terrible
On 6 November 2017 at 19:47, Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:
There’s provocation defined as “action or speech that makes someone angry, especially deliberately” and there’s madness , the sometimes seemingly mad / insane reaction to certain types of provocation as in the old Saro Krio saying, of my Yoruba grandmother’s King James Bible generation, that “provocation is next to madness”
In accordance with Sunnism there are The Five Pillars of Islam and there’s the five roots/ principles the Usul al Din of Shia Islam ( ie.Tawhid ( the unity of God) Adl ( God’s Justice) Nabuwat ( Prophethood), Imamat (The Holy Imams), Qiyamah (The Resurrection)
With pavlovian expectations, Charlie Hebdo is at it again – this time their so called satirical illustration is that of an erect giant penis , said to be “the sixth pillar of Islam.”.
A new provocation from Charlie Hebdo , new death threats
They are of course expecting Muslims to react violently as Muslims have done in the past, with the Muhammad Cartoons ( Denmark) Lars Vilks canine portrait of the Prophet of Islam (Sweden) and the earlier Charlie Hebdo attacks ( France) which prove that Charlie Hebdo know what they are doing and are doing what they do because they expect the same results , so that they can all shout in unison : TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
"I agree on freedom of satire, although the U.S. made fun of black people in the most distasteful of ways in public media, feeding revolting images to children, imparting the notion of the inferiority of black people, of Mexicans, and of foreigners." Harrow
This should be in the present tense, Ken.
Two days ago, on my way from Johannesburg, I decided to kill time by looking at some movies. Keteke, a Ghanaian film, was a delight and so, too, Keeping up with the Kandasamys. The latter was billed as an African film but was clearly in the Bollywood tradition. I wondered about the absence of Nollywood movies. Nigerian film producers/ marketing agents should look into that.
So, I decided to look at Emoji, the Movie. I regret that I ever did that because it definitely spoilt the rest of my trip. I am still reeling from the depth of racism manifested in that film. The prominent Black character in that movie, in the form of an emoji, is Poop. It is a disgusting movie. I believe it actually won some awards, too.
The insults have not really stopped and come in different forms and formats.
Kenneth Harrow
Gloria
In some ways the horrors of the past have come back in even more distasteful, dangerous ways, as in the reappearance of the ghosts of the kkk in the Charleston march, in the rallying of white supremacists across the country.
The opposition to them is also there. you are there; I am here; we are not done with the resistance.
This means, we are a divided nation, and it is beyond distressful that you had to view a revolting film on your flight back from Africa. I can only hope that some day my grandkids will have ushered in a better world
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emea...@ccsu.edu>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 16:13
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Once again, Charlie Hebdo provokes Muslim sensibilities
"I agree on freedom of satire, although the U.S. made fun of black people in the most distasteful of ways in public media, feeding revolting images to children, imparting the notion of the inferiority of black people, of Mexicans, and of foreigners." Harrow
--
Cornelius Hamelberg
Re - “Niggers try to act like Malcolm
And when the white man doesn't react
toward them like he did Malcolm
Niggers want to act violently” ( The Last Poets - “Niggers are scared of revolution”)
Re - “I don’t have more time, except to affirm, as strongly as I can, that people who don’t understand the politics of Charlie Hebdo and its cartoons really are exposing their ignorance if they think the journal is anti-muslim. It is not. It is very much a leftist journal, one opposed to the fundamentalisms of the muslims and Christians and jews, and any other...Their satire is grounded in French symbols which ignorant readers don’t get....... no one at war allows enemy propaganda to be broadcast in their own country.” ( Professor Harrow)
We must not be too philosophical about this:
Swift has no place of prominence in The Great Tradition , nevertheless, in Merry England Private Eye does its fair share of ribaldry as do some of the other satirical magazines in the UK without any of their staff meeting the same fate as members of Muhammad's Dead Poets Society. Perhaps they have not been threatened that they will not meet any of the 72 holy virgins in heaven if they make the wrong move...
In France with a Muslim population of some 5.5 Million potential Jihadists, some of whom, understandably , don’t take any nonsense, it is and should be a little different. Of course, no amount of terrorist slaughter or revenge as a deterrent is going to cow Charlie Hebdo into surrendering their hard won rights to Liberté, égalité, fraternité, to unlimited satire and freedom of expression. And that’s probably why no matter what, they will continue to feel free and will not be discouraged from tackling whatever they deem to be fundamentalism. They intend take the bull or the bullshit by the horns, head on.
CHarlie Hedbo knows that if he is writing about Muslims then Muslims are most probably going to be the ones who read and are affected by what they read.
Cornelius Ignoramus asketh Charlie Hebdo, doesn’t he know that if the Jihadist Muslims decide to react violently this time too, as they reacted the last couple of times to what was perceived as similar kinds of provocation , they (Charlie Hebdo) can only have themselves to blame?
True : the phallus as a spiritual symbol in its own rights ( like the Shiva Linga) can be easily coupled with the idea of heavenly sex after death - “ enjoy for heaven” not necessarily for more procreation but just for
the pure pleasure -
what Abolaji Adekeye joyously refers to as
“ the promise of pussy galore”
in heaven must have its special magnetic appeal not only in “radicalising young boys and young adults” but also for the the older Muslims and the aged, the ageing and infirm, not to mention the humane and the inhumane propagators of al-Islam and even for hopeful non-believers who hope that after the grave they will someday eventually meet ladies like Ramona
“And on their promises of paradise
You will not hear a laugh
All except inside the Gates of Eden” ( The Gates of Eden)
The Holy Quran says that the fruits on earth are but a foretaste of the fruits of paradise
Elsewhere, we have been told told that divine sex is but a symbol of the highest intellectual enjoyment. And down here on earth, such as when Ibn Arabi fell in love with a thirteen year old girl in Mecca, he did write in his The Meccan Revelations that “sexual intercourse is the highest spiritual plane of contemplation.” or some such symbolic wording. But what do I know? Am I going to listen to anyone who has not even lectured in Mecca and Medina?
Kenneth Harrow
I agree that Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons functioned as provocations; and given the context of islamist violence, it could be argued that no matter how much CH was mocking islamophobes—which they undoubtedly did—the effect of their satires was to ignite outrage on the part of believers. I agree that that is an important consideration.
However, let’s be sure what we condemn them for: not for disrespecting Muhammad, but the belief in Muhammad as a divine messenger, in religion itself as an opiate, etc., just as belief in Jesus as divinity itself, in Moses as a divinely sent prophet, etc, all constitutes the delusions of believers.
Targeting religious belief and institutions goes back to Voltaire—whose “ecrasez l’infame—seems soo soo old-fashioned and boring. CH was mostly targeting bigots, not faith, but it had no truck with faith as the response to bigotry. It is a conventionally liberal and secular journal, in the end.
We can be sure that some muslims in france wouldn’t tolerate that message, just as many many more both tolerate or ignore it, they themselves being more victim of islamists than adherents. But in the climate of islamophobia that persists in Europe now, the simple fact of saying, I do not believe in your god, is like spitting on you since the oppressive atmosphere changes all readings.
Insisting on the right to mock others’ faiths, or mock others’ bigotry, or others’ opiates, is to risk wounding many sensibilities and ignite fanatical flames.
We should all recognize that.
Having done so, do we then tell the cartoonist he must shut up? It is a very difficult question.
ken
Kenneth Harrow
Dept of English and Film Studies
http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
Malami buba
Kenneth Harrow
It isn’t reflective of france’s diversity. It is like The Onion in the states, a leftist satirical journal, speaking to a francophone audience that is on the left.
Malami buba
Malami buba
Cornelius Hamelberg
Strictly amended.
Professor Harrow (PH)
Once again, please indulge me. Some more water to the mill. I note that “sensibility”, in French sensibilité is a more handy wordy in French discourse, perhaps more characteristically French in character than in British or Nigerian English discourse in which that word occurs less frequently. “Nigerian sensibilities”, “ethnic/ tribal sensibilities” I guess would open another can of worms. Maybe tribal/ ethnic sensitivity/ sensitivities has a better feel. For sure there’s lots of religious sensitivity in Nigeria - especially Islamic sensitivity which seems to be more easily enraged and more volatile when enraged than say, Nigerian Christian sensitivities as demonstrated in the 2002 Miss World Riots in Nigeria
Once upon a time the then most powerful man in the world, President Barack Obama did make that much clear when he said 'The Future Must Not Belong To Those Who Slander The Prophet Of Islam! “ Which has been variously interpreted to mean, “ off with their heads!” In that regard, the radicalised Islamists are probably still listening to him and not to his good friend Benjamin Netanyahu as one of their patron saints...
The massacre of Banu Qurayza in Medina was based on the Quranic verse 5.33
“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”
There are those who believe that they are the apostles of the Messenger of Islam and are currently fighting in his army and by extension would like to apply the punishments of Holy Quran 5 verse 33 to their enemies who are fighting them.
Your concluding words :
“Insisting on the right to mock others’ faiths, or mock others’ bigotry, or others’ opiates, is to risk wounding many sensibilities and ignite fanatical flames.
We should all recognize that.
Having done so, do we then tell the cartoonist he must shut up? It is a very difficult question.”
I should think that the correct answer is that if as a result of this and additional mockery, blood flows in France - I mean much blood, tens of thousands plus slaughtered, then shouldn’t the French Military and Police be telling Charlie to shut the chuck up - at least until the war is over -
or maybe , as you said earlier on, “ no one at war allows enemy propaganda to be broadcast in their own country.” In such a civil war scenario first of all what would constitute “enemy propaganda” who would be the enemy? Al-Islam? Only Militant Muslims? I guess that in such a civil war scenario, all the so called “radical” mosques would be closed down and the radical Muslims - so identified - and their sympathisers ( mostly other Muslims) would be interned as the Japanese were interned in the US, during the second world war? Hopefully not in concentrations camps such as the one at Guantanamo …
This kind of scenario would erupt if for example , in the name of the right to mock, CHarlie Hebdo substituted a caricature of The Prophet of Islam in the place of Tariq Ramadan , in that their latest cartoon, Then believe me Professor Harrow, all hell would break loose against La France , in France , in Mali, in Algeria , anti- France terrorism would sweep through North Africa, and the Middle East : not a single French Embassy would remain open for business as usual and even in . eg. Nigeria which was not colonised by the French , hopefully the religious leaders of al Islam and Mr. President himself would register his extreme annoyance and it would not be a good time for anyone in Nigerian social media to say that CHarlie Hebdo or France was or is right….
In all your postings in this thread so far, culminating in this last one, many thanks for your succinct summary of what it’s all about - and keeping to the subject matter so that we all don’t go astray, since the matter opens itself up to a much broader discussion, such as
and not least of all the subject of sex in Sharia Islam, one of the areas where Islam’s critics including the islamophobes love to hit Islam shouting
“polygamy in Islam ! ”
“Child marriage in Islam !”
“the oppression of women in Islam !”
“the seclusion of women in Islam ! ”
“ Homophobia in Islam!”
“Why no same- sex- marriage in Islam? ”
“Honour killings in Islam! “
“Down with burqa and Hijab - bikinis for everyone! “
“Hallelujah ! The year 2017 C.E. Saudi women finally free to get a driving licence - in Islam ”
and of late the wave of “ Islamic rape” sweeping across Europe with Sweden recently crowned “ the rape capital of the Europe if not of the world” - not to mention the case of the Yazidis , the fate of Yazidi women and of course everywhere in the troubled world of Islam where war and destruction, arson, pillage, rape and famine is now everyday theatre, worst of all the famine that threatens , 7,000, 000 innocents in Yemen , the poorest Arab country in the world…
Still true in this era , where Tariq Ramadan stands accused, the saying, “ Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” increases the danger in the dangerous times in which we are now living in this very dangerous world now that all kinds of women are coming out accusing men especially men in power positions, accusing them of all kinds of molestation, penetration, flagellation, forced relations. I was thinking last night, the US is lucky that the pussy-grabber took his wife with him to China but when he returns to the home base, then maybe as a last resort to secure his impeachment some women are going to come out on him too - Trump did this and Trump did that with his presidential chopper or before it became the exclusive personal property of the White House. Just wait and see. In the case of Bill (at the time I read this in one of the UK’s Sunday papers, Sir ) :
He was being asked about Gennifer Flowers, the question was “ Why don’t you settle her?
He: Because then the rest would come out!
Q: The rest? How many are they?
He: Thousands
Me : Oh my God!
The Gatestone Institute as always has an axe to grind with al-Islam. Today the focus is France: A Decomposing Civilization
In the case under review it is CH ( Charlie Hebdo) taking the mickey out of Tariq Ramadan the unfortunate Musulman who is facing rape allegations and the one who is featured in their latest issue, sporting a giant Islamic penis and giving it a voice to proclaim in its own defence ” I am the sixth pillar of Islam!” :
Just one last little thing: In 2001 Torbjörn Säfve (Swedish Writer) came out with a book a fictionalised biography of Ibn Arabi , entitled Var inte Rädd ( Don’t be afraid)) -( the illustrations in that book ( the women he has in a whorehouse )give the reason why he was threatened by some Islamists but he remained unafraid; in one rejoinder he said that “ they are like dogs who can bark but do not bite” - At which point I feared for his life. He is the man who once personally asked me a question that I will always remember - and he was speaking English at the time, we were just from one of the innumerable PEN meetings about the fatwa ( like the sword of damocles) hanging over the head of Salman Rushdie:. The question : "Is there anything that’s so holy that we may not talk about it?"
Kenneth Harrow
Hi malami
Not totally sure which cartoon you are referring to, but I do not agree that the left is primarily white in france. not at all. It is closer to the u.s. in this regard. Perhaps you are aware of s.o.s. racism, the organization, and its campaign of some years ago, “touche pas mon pote”—hands off my buddy. It was a campaign of solidarity with the arab and black populations, and the head of sos racism was a black man. The ministers of state appointed by socialist govts have included arab or black politicians. Anyway, it is the right, and esp the right, that attacks Africans and especially arabs—of course. The racism in france is ugly, as in the states, and it is directed against immigrant of color, period. Racism on the right, it is at the heart of the right. Charlie Hebdo is their enemy. I can’t say that the context of “freedom of speech” is such that their choices can be seen as very smart. There is a place in the social history when provocations are really ill-advised. We can debate that, meaningfully. But it is not the case that the fervent believers apt to find offense in their cartoons represent all muslims, not by a long shot. I would that the islamists really represent a relatively small minority among the muslims in france. but the more right wing govts based on anti-immigration appeals gain traction, the more people are apt to close ranks.
A really awful situation, not dissimilar to the black lives matter moment in our history here, and to the perturbations caused by trump’s racist appeals.
O O
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