US Marines Vs 82nd & 101st Airborne
Richard Stevens
Richard
Phillip E. Pearson
missions, though they basically do the same thing. If there wasn't a reason
for all three, there wouldn't be all three. They're all the best at what
they do.
"Richard Stevens" <richard....@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:B7DBBB97.9A00%richard....@btopenworld.com...
Legionair6
>They're all better for what they are trained for. All three have different
>missions, though they basically do the same thing. If there wasn't a reason
>for all three, there wouldn't be all three. They're all the best at what
>they do.
????????????????? you haven't trained with british Royal Marines and paras
right?
Atila
Replacement Tommel
>
>Which US fighting force is better of these 2 kinds of troops ?....
>
>Richard
Better at what?
Amphib landing? The Marines.
Airmobile operations? The 101st.
Airborne Assault? The 82nd.
-Tom
"True heroism is remarkedly sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to
surprass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever
cost." - Arthur Ashe
DeathBunny
"Legionair6" <legio...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010929140715...@mb-mw.aol.com...
Ummm...there are more of them and the 101st and 82nd are typically employed
in Brigade or Divisional strength...
...I doubt there are enough Brit Paras or RM's to make up a Divisional
force...
DeathBunny
"Replacement Tommel" <tommel6@_SpamitySpam_hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P0rt7.9578$ev2....@www.newsranger.com...
> >In article <B7DBBB97.9A00%richard....@btopenworld.com>, Richard
Stevens >says...
> >
> >Which US fighting force is better of these 2 kinds of troops ?....
> >
> >Richard
>
> Better at what?
>
> Amphib landing? The Marines.
>
> Airmobile operations? The 101st.
>
> Airborne Assault? The 82nd.
Divisional or Brigade Airborne Assault...I bet the Rangers have the
Battalion or less unit honors
David Casey
> Which US fighting force is better of these 2 kinds of troops ?....
Hmmm... that's a tough one. I'd have to say the American ones are the
best.
Dave
--
You can talk about us, but you can't talk without us!
Signal Corps!!
www.geocities.com/davidcasey98
David Casey
> ????????????????? you haven't trained with british Royal Marines and
> paras right?
Are they in the USMC or 82nd/101st Airborne?
Legionair6
>> Which US fighting force is better of these 2 kinds of troops ?....
>
>Hmmm... that's a tough one. I'd have to say the American ones are the
>best.
ha ha ha .... typical american arrogance... they think they are the best in
everything. Think about it and tell me one area in which americans are best.
Apart from basketball, I can't think of anything.
Atila
Replacement Tommel
>
>david casey wrote:
>
>>> Which US fighting force is better of these 2 kinds of troops ?....
>>
>>Hmmm... that's a tough one. I'd have to say the American ones are the
>>best.
>
>ha ha ha .... typical american arrogance...
Well, the original poster named three units, all of which are American, somehow
answering "The British Royal Marines" (and I've worked with their Artic Warfare
Brigade in Norway, and I'll tell you that they are extremely top notch...)
doesn't seem to be a good answer...
(snip... gez, Atila you've been going w-a-y dowhill lately...)
Legionair6
>Well, the original poster named three units, all of which are American,
>somehow
>answering "The British Royal Marines" (and I've worked with their Artic
>Warfare
>Brigade in Norway, and I'll tell you that they are extremely top notch...)
>doesn't seem to be a good answer...
the original poster was implying those units were the world's best in their
respective specialties. They are not. 85% of the recruits that begin Marine
boot camp, finish it, such a high graduation rate is hardly the hallmark of an
elite force. The Royal Marines have one the longest basic training of the world
(31 weeks if I remember right) and an attrition rate of over 40%. Similarly, a
US paratrooper has an approx 85% chance of finishing US infantry basic and a
95% chance of completing airborne training (for male recruits, the graduation
rate of such a walk-in-the-woods school is about 50% for females, amazing but
true). Compared that with the approx 26 weeks to train a British para (I reckon
their attrition rate to be at 50% or higher). Finally, the 101st, once a fine
WWII unit, cannot be considered anymore an elite unit. Their Air asault school
is a joke that in order to have a higher attrition rate than airborne school,
they can kick you out for forgetting a couple cof socks. What the fuck is Air
Assault school anyway? Do u need to go to school to learn how to exit a fucking
chopper? No other country, not even the US marines bother with such a stupid
school. It was probably created to give some consolatuion when the 101st lost
its parachute capacity.
The rangers are not special forces, they are elite infantry, not bad but by no
means "the world's finest infantry". Most of them are 18-20 years old that have
only gone thru RIP (about 30% attrition rate, right Doug?)
Atila
Rocco Rosano
Sometimes, Atila! - you make the oddest comments.
It is beyond my imagination to think that there would come a time when - who
was better - would need to be tested. The likelihood that the US would ever
engage the UK militarily is beyond such a consideration. Thus, it is a
matter of who is best suited and equipped to tackle any particular mission
as comrades in arms.
If you are of the opinion that the US military (either our Marine
Expeditionary Forces, our Special Operations units, our Airborne or
Airmobile) are not worthy of joint operations with the Elite Royal Marines
or Her Majesty's forces in general, then I suggest that you make that point
abundantly clear to you MP.
But I would not try to compare our specialized force structure and mission
training to that of the military forces of the UK. They are light-years
apart. The UK does not even have a force component structure on the order
of the 101st Airborne. It is a divisional size element with a air combat
force projection potential and a battlefield speed greater than any
divisional infantry known on the entire planet. I think it is safe to say
that you can not compare apples to oranges. (Just how many Attack
Helicopter BATTALIONS does the entire Royal Marines have to compare with the
101st???) You can not compare the UK force component structure to a US
force component. They are different. (Imagine trying to compare an US
Aircraft Carrier to a UK Aircraft Carrier - just doesn't work that way.
They do different things with different force projection models.) Nor would
it every be necessary.
I think it is safe to say that if the UK got in a jam and needed help from
the fastest, most powerful division size infantry fighting unit on the
planet, America would deploy its 101st Airborne in direct support of its
valued ally. Again, if you think us not worthy, be sure to express that
clearly.
Until then, try to remember we are (I think) on the same side. The
Airborne, the Air Assault and the Marines are (in the US) different in force
projection, speed and versatility. Just as an F-16 and an F-14 are
different.
Coming together in Direct Support of Peace and Freedom,
Rocco Rosano
Reynoldsburg, Ohio
mailto:pro...@insight.rr.com
in article 20010929175902...@mb-mf.aol.com, Legionair6 at
legio...@aol.com wrote on 9/29/01 2:59 PM:
Sent
to military.
If an American says that they are the best in something you can't really
call it arrogance. Basically
every country is going says that about themselves...kids say they have the
best parents, adults say they have the best jobs...blah blah blah.
However, if you really want an area that America is BEST at.
I challenge you to point out any country in the world that has better
doctors and hospitals etc.
NO country comes close and thats not something that anyone who has ever
lived in America and other countries (i.e. England) can deny or claim to be
an arrogant statement.
Thats just one of many areas....but if you still need another area in which
America leads the world I have one word for you: Internet, guess where that
came from....you still want more!
the very shirt you have on your back and the car you drive...all made
possible as a result of American engenuity. Yeah they're probable Made in
China but guess who was first to invent the automated factory assembly line
that the entire world uses to manufacture goods.
the Light bulb and the Telephone
I could take you to school all day.
get your telescope and look up at the moon...there is only 1 flag that flys
in outerspace its red white and blue.
"Legionair6" <legio...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010929175902...@mb-mf.aol.com...
DeathBunny
For a much smaller unit that primarily executes missions the US typically
assigns to the similarly trained Rangers, the British Para's are better
trained.
As an entire infantry division that (except for some of the aviation assets)
that can be delivered by air, the 82nd is better trained than other
divisional equivalents. You also have to remember that the Airborne school
is merely the entry requirement and most Combat Arms NCO's and Officers (at
least) in those units typically have more rigorous training than that.
Even the truck drivers, admin types, and everyone else in the division have
to be airborne qualified...
> Finally, the 101st, once a fine
> WWII unit, cannot be considered anymore an elite unit. Their Air asault
school
> is a joke that in order to have a higher attrition rate than airborne
school,
> they can kick you out for forgetting a couple cof socks. What the fuck is
Air
> Assault school anyway? Do u need to go to school to learn how to exit a
fucking
> chopper? No other country, not even the US marines bother with such a
stupid
> school. It was probably created to give some consolatuion when the 101st
lost
> its parachute capacity.
Air Assault School also includes the hows and whens of rigging about
anything air-liftable to a helicopter...HMMWVS. Cargo, Artillery Pieces,
trucks, cargo, ammo... Something that requires a lot of attention to
detail...the reason for the socks and the gloves being servicable and the
correct link counts.
Again, the entire Division can be moved by helicopter...artillery, support
units, infantry...everything.
The 101st is also one of the only units in the world to be able to move
100's of miles rapidly by helicopter using only assets assigned to it.
> The rangers are not special forces, they are elite infantry, not bad but
by no
> means "the world's finest infantry". Most of them are 18-20 years old that
have
> only gone thru RIP (about 30% attrition rate, right Doug?)
>
And then they train 48 weeks of the year unless actually deployed...and
those that can't handle it get rotated out into other units...
Legionair6
>Air Assault School also includes the hows and whens of rigging about
>anything air-liftable to a helicopter...HMMWVS. Cargo, Artillery Pieces,
>trucks, cargo, ammo... Something that requires a lot of attention to
>detail...the reason for the socks and the gloves being servicable and the
>correct link counts.
the marines have also a need for those skills, and they don't have an air
assault school.
>Again, the entire Division can be moved by helicopter...artillery, support
>units, infantry...everything.
even the bigger trucks???? anyway, there is nothing special about the 101st,
they just have more helicopters than anybody else. Just transfer those
helicopters to another infantry division and "voila". Pretty pathetic that a
division finds its identity in its assets rather than in the quality of its
training.
>The 101st is also one of the only units in the world to be able to move
>100's of miles rapidly by helicopter using only assets assigned to it.
no shit, because they have more helicopters than most large countries.
Atila
The SoldierGrrrl
>>units, infantry...everything.
>
>even the bigger trucks????
The only thing that cannot be moved by helicopter is the HTT or Hett. The
Chinnok can move 1083, the five-ton truck, but it has to be flat bedded, and
the Chinook can't carry the fuel weight of fuel. Normally, we prefer to drive
our trucks though. <g>
The SoldierGrrrl
"STRIKE FORCE!"
"U.S. Army-We break more shit by 9 am than most people do all day!"
Replacement Tommel
>
>deathbuny wrote:
>
>>Air Assault School also includes the hows and whens of rigging about
>>anything air-liftable to a helicopter...HMMWVS. Cargo, Artillery Pieces,
>>trucks, cargo, ammo... Something that requires a lot of attention to
>>detail...the reason for the socks and the gloves being servicable and the
>>correct link counts.
>
>the marines have also a need for those skills, and they don't have an air
>assault school.
>
Certain Marines also need airborne training, yet they have no airborne school...
I wonder why? ;-P
(snip)
dvick
Certain soldiers in the Army also need dive training, yet the Army
doesn't have a diver school... hmmmm, I see a pattern emerging.
Richard Stevens
Take a look down at your nikes you nypocritical arsehole....
R
DeathBunny
> deathbuny wrote:
>
> >Air Assault School also includes the hows and whens of rigging about
> >anything air-liftable to a helicopter...HMMWVS. Cargo, Artillery Pieces,
> >trucks, cargo, ammo... Something that requires a lot of attention to
> >detail...the reason for the socks and the gloves being servicable and the
> >correct link counts.
>
> the marines have also a need for those skills, and they don't have an air
> assault school.
>
usually land said troops out of landed Helos versus assualt landings.
> >Again, the entire Division can be moved by helicopter...artillery,
support
> >units, infantry...everything.
>
> even the bigger trucks???? anyway, there is nothing special about the
101st,
> they just have more helicopters than anybody else. Just transfer those
> helicopters to another infantry division and "voila". Pretty pathetic that
a
> division finds its identity in its assets rather than in the quality of
its
> training.
The training is what allows them to use those assets...
Transferring those helicopters to other units would help them, considering
the number of Air Assault trained troops throughout the Army. However, the
time it would take them to get up to speed, along with the fact their
equipment issue isn't optimized for air assualt (many units with equipment
too heavy to lift, no training in planning and executing large unit moves,
lack of practical experience, lack of experience with the speed helicopters
allow the entire Division or Brigade can move...), would be prohibitive and
costly in lives, equipment, and money in combat.
>
> >The 101st is also one of the only units in the world to be able to move
> >100's of miles rapidly by helicopter using only assets assigned to it.
>
> no shit, because they have more helicopters than most large countries.
Exactly... and who else in the world (except maybe the Russians if they put
their effort into it) has a Division that can do that?
Legionair6
>Exactly... and who else in the world (except maybe the Russians if they put
>their effort into it) has a Division that can do that?
>
big deal, other countries have airmobile brigades, a division should be renown
by the quality of its fighters, not the numbers of its helicopters. As I said,
the only thing special about the 101st is its number of helos, take the
choppers away, and you are left with an ordinary infantry division, probably of
lower standard than other US divisions not considered "elite" such as 2 ID or
10th ID.
Atila
sweetestperfection
long. service time.
32 one weeks seems a little then....
Legionair6 <legio...@aol.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:20010929193316...@mb-mf.aol.com...
sweetestperfection
about 130 dollars a year for. The rest the goverment take care of. You have
free dentalcare until you are 19. You dont pay when you are giving birth.
You dont get asked if you are unsured right before they take you in, It
costs about 10 dollars to get to an doctor who gets x-rays of you, and if
you get sent along to a specialist, he charges you just another 10 dollars.
But im sure you have better research in some way.
Sent <s...@d.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:tRst7.8448$pN2.4...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
Legionair6
>well...better hospitals. In sweden all medication you use, you only pay
>about 130 dollars a year for. The rest the goverment take care of. You have
>free dentalcare until you are 19. You dont pay when you are giving birth.
>You dont get asked if you are unsured right before they take you in, It
>costs about 10 dollars to get to an doctor who gets x-rays of you, and if
>you get sent along to a specialist, he charges you just another 10 dollars.
>But im sure you have better research in some way.
>
ignorant moron: in Sweden you pay much more than that, you have some of the
highest tax rates in the world, you just don't see it. Your system is totally
unfair: the workers pay for the medical care of lazy unemployed (like I used to
be) and parasyte immigrants. BTW, can a foreigner from the European Union claim
unemployment benefits in Sweden even if he hasn't worked there? I did that in
the UK in the 90's until they canceled my benefits in 1995. I wonder if I can
pull the same scam there, the weather sucks, but there is no shortage of easy
fat women.
Atila
Robb D. Shimp
>Which US fighting force is better of these 2 kinds of troops ?....
It would be close, but I would say that the average Marine is slightly "better"
than the average 82nd/ 101st troop. I would put the average tabbed Ranger
slightly higher than a Marine.
Tankers, of course, are above all of 'em. :o)
"We're all here 'cause we ain't all there"
Robb D. Shimp
>Certain Marines also need airborne training, yet they have no airborne
>school...
>I wonder why? ;-P
I don't think he'll get the hint...
The USMC sends many of it's Marines to Army schools... Airborne and Air
Assualt, also MOS producing courses like Military Police and Armor Crewman.
dvick
wrote:
>>From: Richard Stevens richard....@btopenworld.com
>
>>Which US fighting force is better of these 2 kinds of troops ?....
>
>It would be close, but I would say that the average Marine is slightly "better"
>than the average 82nd/ 101st troop. I would put the average tabbed Ranger
>slightly higher than a Marine.
Well there you have it then. You just need to stick with Marines who
have been to Ranger School.
Robb D. Shimp
>The only thing that cannot be moved by helicopter is the HTT or Hett. The
>Chinnok can move 1083, the five-ton truck, but it has to be flat bedded, and
>the Chinook can't carry the fuel weight of fuel. Normally, we prefer to
>drive
>our trucks though. <g>
Read "The Lightning in the Storm" a book about the 101st's attack into Iraq.
The only equipment which can't be lifted by Divisional assets are (as SG
indicated) the heavier trucks. They drove these in.
The 101 is designed to operate over an area, like it did in Vietnam. These
trucks would operate in the central support area, which isn't designed to move
as much.
In DS/DS they had to move the entire Division, so they did... driving the
trucks.
Legionair6
>I don't think he'll get the hint...
>
>The USMC sends many of it's Marines to Army schools... Airborne and Air
>Assualt, also MOS producing courses like Military Police and Armor Crewman.
>
I wonder how all those foreign militaries can be so stupid as not having an
air assault school. Can't they see it is an ESSENTIAl school to learn how to
operate helos ? :)
Atila
Mark David
wrote:
>The 101 is designed to operate over an area, like it did in Vietnam. These
>trucks would operate in the central support area, which isn't designed to move
>as much.
Much is being made of the 101st helicopter reliance - but how else
will these guys deploy with sufficient firepower and the necessary
logistic train to support them? The Soviets had loads of air-droppable
IFVs, guns and artillery, but the US has failed to develop weapons and
vehicles for their airborne forces that can drop with them out of a
plane for some reason.
====
The Super Genius!
GU...@hotmail.com
The SoldierGrrrl
>Tankers, of course, are above all of 'em. :o)
Remind me to kick you in your shins. :P
redc1c4
>
> >From: tankm...@aol.comspam
>
> >Tankers, of course, are above all of 'em. :o)
>
> Remind me to kick you in your shins. :P
he's right, you know. hell, they're *almost* Cav! %-)
redc1c4,
"Scouts Out!"
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."
Army Officer's Guide
Replacement Tommel
From the top of my head, what I remember about the Air Assault course I took up
at Drum:
Zero Day:
Inspection of packing list.
Confidence course than a 2 mile run afterwards (18 minutes).
Processing into the school.
Phase 1 Combat Assault:
Learn about Helos, MEDEVAC, guiding copters with hand signals, establishing
PZs?LZs, ride around in a Black Hawk, tests ('Cause the Army LOVES tests...)
Phase 2 Slingload Ops:
Prepare & rig slingloads, play around with the A-22 cargo bag. More tests.
Phase 3 Rapelling:
Learn how to rapell from a Black Hawk. Do Combat Equipment Rappelling. More
tests.
Phase 4 Foot March:
14 mile Foot March with full Combat load (3 hours). Inspection of kit
afterwards.
..and that's about it. While Air Assault School isn't the most difficult
(MLCCCC is tougher... more fun too), it's more than just jumping off of a
helicopter...
Douglas Berry
legio...@aol.com (Legionair6) warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
Um, dear? Look at the question: "Which US fighting force is better."
Then look at the answer. Learn to read critically.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Douglas Berry
>The rangers are not special forces, they are elite infantry, not bad but by no
>means "the world's finest infantry". Most of them are 18-20 years old that have
>only gone thru RIP (about 30% attrition rate, right Doug?)
LOL! "Only gone through RIP." Right, and I "only" had Hodgkin's
Disease.
Rangers are considered special warfare troops. And from where I sit,
Rangers are the world's finest light infantry.
Det2
tankm...@aol.comspam (Robb D. Shimp) wrote:
>>From: Replacement Tommel tommel6@_SpamitySpam_hotmail.com
>
>>Certain Marines also need airborne training, yet they have no airborne
>>school...
>>I wonder why? ;-P
>
>I don't think he'll get the hint...
>
>The USMC sends many of it's Marines to Army schools... Airborne and Air
>Assualt, also MOS producing courses like Military Police and Armor Crewman.
>
>
Tech schools too. Arty/small arms/ turret at APG
Tank Fixer
Det2
(Legionair6) wrote:
How do you know they don't ?
Tank Fixer
Det2
Because we wern't going to try inserting multi
divsion airdrops ?
Tank Fixer
The SoldierGrrrl
>>
>> Remind me to kick you in your shins. :P
>
>he's right, you know. hell, they're *almost* Cav! %-)
>
>redc1c4,
>"Scouts Out!"
I'll kick you too, buster. :) And then take my truck and go the hell home.
<g>
Legionair6
>>>> Which US fighting force is better of these 2 kinds of troops ?....
>>>
>>>Hmmm... that's a tough one. I'd have to say the American ones are the
>>>best.
>>
>>ha ha ha .... typical american arrogance... they think they are the best in
>>everything. Think about it and tell me one area in which americans are best.
>>Apart from basketball, I can't think of anything.
>
>Um, dear? Look at the question: "Which US fighting force is better."
>Then look at the answer. Learn to read critically.
with the due respect, it is YOU the one that has to read carefully. I was
replying to the above statement: "I'd have to say the American ones are the
best". I was NOT replying to "Which US force is better of these 2 kinds of
troops?" Understood now?
Atila
Legionair6
>LOL! "Only gone through RIP." Right, and I "only" had Hodgkin's
>Disease.
I said that most rangers in a ranger bat have gone thru RIP only. The rest are
awaiting go to Ranger school or are in school. Please correct me and tell me
what percent of soldiers in a ranger bat wear the tab. 60%? 65%?
>Rangers are considered special warfare troops. And from where I sit,
>Rangers are the world's finest light infantry.
maybe, but rangers are not "special forces", just elite infantry. Be careful
about statements such as the "world's best", there are hundreds of military
units in the world, why your unit, of all those HUNDREDS, should be the best?
During your military career, they have told you that you belong to the finest
country, the finest army, the finest regiment, the finest battalion in the
75th, the finest company in your battalion, the finest platoon in your
company... If you think about it, your platoon is the FINEST in the world. Of
all the thousands of platoons in the world, yours is the finest. Did it not
occur to you, that perhaps, perhaps, what they told you WASN'T true? Why God
was so kind to you as to make you a member of the world's finest military unit?
Have you not thought that maybe yours isn't the finest unit in the WHOLE world?
As an unbiased observer, I think the Rangers are a fine infantry unit, but by
no means the world's finest infantry. On top of my head, I can think that the
Royal Marines, British Paras, and 2nd REP French Foreign Legion paratroopers
are much better. But of course, none of those units have an AC-130 or a flight
of F-117 at their disposition :)
Atila
Legionair6
>Learn about Helos, MEDEVAC, guiding copters with hand signals, establishing
>PZs?LZs, ride around in a Black Hawk, tests ('Cause the Army LOVES tests...)
>
useless
>Prepare & rig slingloads, play around with the A-22 cargo bag. More tests.
>
2 people per company should know that, no more.
>Learn how to rapell from a Black Hawk. Do Combat Equipment Rappelling. More
>tests.
everybody should know how to rappel, those techniques should be taught at
company level, once you can rappel from a wall you can rappel from a helo, no
difference.
>14 mile Foot March with full Combat load (3 hours). Inspection of kit
>afterwards.
useless, they are supposed to tell you about helos, not how to walk. BTW, the
foot march is 12 miles, not 14.
Atila
Legionair6
>How do you know they don't ?
>
OK, tell me a major nation except the US that has an air assault school. The
burden of proof is on you, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to try to prove a fact that
doesn't exist. You remind me of my former g/f: she thought I was married, but
it was impossible for me to prove her beyond doubt I was single.
Atila
billh
"Legionair6"
> OK, tell me a major nation except the US that has an air assault school.
Tell me a nation other than the US that has an air assault division.
Legionair6
another smart comment. many nations have air assault brigades: Russia,
Netherlands, the UK.... And none has an air assault school. I don't know why a
division would need such a school and not a brigade. The us has even air
assault training in the 25 th division: more waste of my tax money. If it was
up to me, I would send you all you lazy bastards to find a decent job.
Atila
Replacement Tommel
>
(snip)
>I don't know why a
>division would need such a school and not a brigade. The us has even air
>assault training in the 25 th division: more waste of my tax money.
10th Mountain too. ;-P
> If it was up to me, I would send you all you lazy bastards to find a decent >job.
Funny comment coming from you Atila...
billh
"Legionair6"
> >
> >> OK, tell me a major nation except the US that has an air assault
school.
> >
> >Tell me a nation other than the US that has an air assault division.
>
> another smart comment. many nations have air assault brigades:
An answer to a question not asked.
Russia,
> Netherlands, the UK.... And none has an air assault school. I don't know
why a
> division would need such a school and not a brigade. The us has even air
> assault training in the 25 th division: more waste of my tax money.
So what have you done about those wated tax $$$ other than complain.
If it was
> up to me, I would send you all you lazy bastards to find a decent job.
So what have you done, other than complain.
David Casey
>>Learn about Helos, MEDEVAC, guiding copters with hand signals,
>>establishing PZs?LZs, ride around in a Black Hawk, tests ('Cause the
>>Army LOVES tests...)
>
> useless
At least until you have wounded to get out.
>>Prepare & rig slingloads, play around with the A-22 cargo bag. More
>>tests.
>
> 2 people per company should know that, no more.
And of course, those two people will always be in the right place, at the
right time, and not wounded or killed since they'll have special shields
which deflect the bullets.
>>Learn how to rapell from a Black Hawk. Do Combat Equipment Rappelling.
>>More tests.
>
> everybody should know how to rappel, those techniques should be taught
> at company level, once you can rappel from a wall you can rappel from a
> helo, no difference.
Except the helicopter tends to create a bit of wind, noise, could be too
high off the ground, might be taking fire, etc. Your average wall tends to
be pretty stationary, goes all the way to the ground, doesn't take much
fire.
>>14 mile Foot March with full Combat load (3 hours). Inspection of kit
>>afterwards.
>
> useless, they are supposed to tell you about helos, not how to walk.
> BTW, the foot march is 12 miles, not 14.
So then why do the SAS go one a great big ruck march? They're supposed to
tell you about special operations, not how to walk. The troops should have
learned how to walk around age 3 or so.
Dave
--
You can talk about us, but you can't talk without us!
Signal Corps!!
www.geocities.com/davidcasey98
David Casey
us.military.army:
>>I don't know why a
>>division would need such a school and not a brigade. The us has even
>>air assault training in the 25 th division: more waste of my tax money.
>
> 10th Mountain too. ;-P
There is an Air Assault school at Fort Bliss, Texas as well. My National
Guard unit (a Patriot missile battery) gets a slot every now and then.
David Casey
> Much is being made of the 101st helicopter reliance - but how else
> will these guys deploy with sufficient firepower and the necessary
> logistic train to support them? The Soviets had loads of air-droppable
> IFVs, guns and artillery, but the US has failed to develop weapons and
> vehicles for their airborne forces that can drop with them out of a
> plane for some reason.
I've seen Signal equipment packed for an airdrop. If you can drop that
from a plane, you can drop just about anything.
David Casey
> dave casey wrote:
I didn't write that. You really do need to pay better attention when you
read. This does explain a lot, however.
[snip rest for the hell of it]
David Casey
> maybe, but rangers are not "special forces", just elite infantry. Be
> careful about statements such as the "world's best", there are hundreds
> of military units in the world, why your unit, of all those HUNDREDS,
> should be the best? During your military career, they have told you
> that you belong to the finest country, the finest army, the finest
> regiment, the finest battalion in the 75th, the finest company in your
> battalion, the finest platoon in your company... If you think about it,
> your platoon is the FINEST in the world. Of all the thousands of
> platoons in the world, yours is the finest. Did it not occur to you,
> that perhaps, perhaps, what they told you WASN'T true? Why God was so
> kind to you as to make you a member of the world's finest military
> unit? Have you not thought that maybe yours isn't the finest unit in
> the WHOLE world?
Funny, I've always thought it was 1st Platoon, Bravo Company, 121st Signal
Battalion, 1st Infantry Division that was the best in the world. Of
course, now that I've moved to a new unit, Fire Control Platoon, Charlie
Battery, 2/200 ADA (Patriot) is the best platoon in the entire world. Must
be something I'm doing right, eh? ;-)
Legionair6
>>>Learn about Helos, MEDEVAC, guiding copters with hand signals,
>>>establishing PZs?LZs, ride around in a Black Hawk, tests ('Cause the
>>>Army LOVES tests...)
>>
>> useless
>
>At least until you have wounded to get out.
are u saying that a helicopter pilot needs somebody to guide him how to
land??????? I bet they don't pay even attention to the 20 year old air asssault
graduate making the signals, they pay more attention to their eyes and what the
crew chief is saying.
>> 2 people per company should know that, no more.
>
>And of course, those two people will always be in the right place, at the
>right time, and not wounded or killed since they'll have special shields
>which deflect the bullets.
OK, make it 4, and any grandmother can prepare a slingload, it isn't rocket
science, you don't need to make it book-perfect.
>Except the helicopter tends to create a bit of wind, noise, could be too
>high off the ground, might be taking fire, etc. Your average wall tends to
>be pretty stationary, goes all the way to the ground, doesn't take much
>fire.
rappel is rappel, I have done it from a helo, no different than from the
ground.
>So then why do the SAS go one a great big ruck march? They're supposed to
>tell you about special operations, not how to walk. The troops should have
>learned how to walk around age 3 or so.
>
the main quality of a SAS trooper is physical and mental endurance. The rest
comes easy. Air assault school is about getting a boy scout badge, the US army
is very fond of giving away badges....look at the marines, there are almost no
badges except the USMC and the name tag. They have, I believe, only two badges
on their BDUs: parachute and another....they should get rid of both.
Atila
Det2
(Legionair6) wrote:
>tommel wrote:
>
>>Learn about Helos, MEDEVAC, guiding copters with hand signals, establishing
>>PZs?LZs, ride around in a Black Hawk, tests ('Cause the Army LOVES tests...)
>>
>
>useless
>
>>Prepare & rig slingloads, play around with the A-22 cargo bag. More tests.
>>
>
>2 people per company should know that, no more.
>
2 per company ?
What are you smoking ?
I'm part of a detachment of a 270 man company. We
operate seperate from the main body. I need
minimum two just for my det.
Tank Fixer
Det2
(Legionair6) wrote:
Why should i care if they do,
I would suspect that the UK adn Russia have some
sort.
and France
Tank Fixer
Det2
(Legionair6) wrote:
Nice words from welfare boy...
Tank Fixer
Legionair6
>The us has even air
>>assault training in the 25 th division: more waste of my tax money. If it
>was
>>up to me, I would send you all you lazy bastards to find a decent job.
>>
>
>Nice words from welfare boy...
>
first, i am not on welfare anymore, I give Uncle sam over $20,000 a year in
direct taxes and other contributions. And I am not counting indirect taxes
(sales taxes). If I had some dignity, I wouldn't pay those taxes that help to
enslave the world. I would be thrown into prison by the IRS but well.
second, I don't blame people on welfare, I blame the system that lets healthy,
productive people, be on welfare. Welfare is anti-natural, and contrary to
nature's first law: the survival of the fittest.
Atila
Legionair6
>air assault school. The
>>burden of proof is on you, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to try to prove a fact
>that
>>doesn't exist. You remind me of my former g/f: she thought I was married,
>but
>>it was impossible for me to prove her beyond doubt I was single.
>>
>Why should i care if they do,
>
>I would suspect that the UK adn Russia have some
>sort.
>and France
>
>
>Tank Fix
can I have something more solid than a suspicion???????
Atila
The SoldierGrrrl
>legio...@aol.com (Legionair6) wrote in us.military.army:
>> everybody should know how to rappel, those techniques should be taught
>> at company level, once you can rappel from a wall you can rappel from a
>> helo, no difference.
>
>Except the helicopter tends to create a bit of wind, noise, could be too
>high off the ground, might be taking fire, etc. Your average wall tends to
>be pretty stationary, goes all the way to the ground, doesn't take much
>fire.
I'm going to assume that Legionnaire hasn't ever actually tried to rappel out
of the Blackhawk with the combat load? I sure as hell can't do it, and most of
the folx that I know that have been through AASLT school had a hard time with
it.
The SoldierGrrrl
> I bet they don't pay even attention to the 20 year old air asssault
>graduate making the signals, they pay more attention to their eyes and what
>the
>crew chief is saying.
Who do you think the crew cheif is watching? The chief can see out of a small
window, about the size of a medium TV, and they are to some degree relying on
the person on the ground to tell them when they're good. Otherwise, people on
top of vehicles, either doing hooker training, or actual slingloads can be
crushed. Being squished by a Chinook is *not* the way I'd want to go.
The SoldierGrrrl
>OK, make it 4, and any grandmother can prepare a slingload, it isn't rocket
>science, you don't need to make it book-perfect.
Ever seen 1500 gallons of water or fuel hit the ground because someone didn't
make it book-perfect. I have. Hate to be the person responsible for those
blivets. They're only about $3000 each, not to mention the HazMat crew needed
to clean up JP8.
Legionair6
>ho do you think the crew cheif is watching? The chief can see out of a small
>window, about the size of a medium TV, and they are to some degree relying on
>the person on the ground to tell them when they're good.
maybe in your army, in mine the crew chief opens the door and sticks his head
out :)
Atila
David Casey
> are u saying that a helicopter pilot needs somebody to guide him how to
> land??????? I bet they don't pay even attention to the 20 year old air
> asssault graduate making the signals, they pay more attention to their
> eyes and what the crew chief is saying.
I guess you've never watched a helicopter try to land in a spot they
weren't able to see the ground due to the dust being kicked up and had to
rely on the troop waving his hands around on the ground for directions as
to when the truck was on the ground and when they could cut the hook loose.
> OK, make it 4, and any grandmother can prepare a slingload, it isn't
> rocket science, you don't need to make it book-perfect.
Explain that while watching your $1,000,000 satellite shelter crashing into
the ground.
Legionair6
>Explain that while watching your $1,000,000 satellite shelter crashing into
>the ground.
>
in my army we use our few helos to transport our fat generals.... we soldiers
are young and can walk :)
Atila
Robb D. Shimp
asssault
>>graduate making the signals, they pay more attention to their eyes and what
>>the
>>crew chief is saying.
>
So how does the crew of a CH-47 see what is happening directly beneith them
during sling load ops?
Idiot.
"We're all here 'cause we ain't all there"
Legionair6
>piggy back>> I bet they don't pay even attention to the 20 year old air
>asssault
>>>graduate making the signals, they pay more attention to their eyes and what
>>>the
>>>crew chief is saying.
>>
>
>So how does the crew of a CH-47 see what is happening directly beneith them
>during sling load ops?
>
how do you think they manage in the numerous militaries that have ch-47 and DO
NOT have air assault school??????????????????? Anybody can make some hand
signals, have u never helped a friend out of a tight spot in a parking
lot????????????? A helo is just a car that moves in 3 dimensions instead of 2.
Atila
Replacement Tommel
>
>Anybody can make some hand
>signals, have u never helped a friend out of a tight spot in a parking
>lot????????????? A helo is just a car that moves in 3 dimensions instead of 2.
>
It's that third demension that makes it so tricky Atila...
David Casey
>>Explain that while watching your $1,000,000 satellite shelter crashing
>>into the ground.
>
> in my army we use our few helos to transport our fat generals.... we
> soldiers are young and can walk :)
In my Army, we like our generals to be able to talk to all their troops and
then back to their headquarters across the globe. And most of our tac-sat
shelters tend not to be able to walk.
billh
"Legionair6"
> how do you think they manage in the numerous militaries that have ch-47
and DO
> NOT have air assault school???????????????????
None of these armies have as many birds as the 101st. Name any one other
army unit in the world that'll hot refuel and sling 450k-500k gallons of JP8
a day just to keep their birds flying.
billh
"Legionair6"
> I don't blame people on welfare, I blame the system that lets healthy,
> productive people, be on welfare. Welfare is anti-natural, and contrary to
> nature's first law: the survival of the fittest.
That's why our system no longer allows healthy productive people on welfare.
They'll survive or not on their own, just as you wish. Too bad your home
country doesn't do the same.
Douglas Berry
legio...@aol.com (Legionair6) warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
>dave casey wrote:
>>At least until you have wounded to get out.
>
>are u saying that a helicopter pilot needs somebody to guide him how to
>land??????? I bet they don't pay even attention to the 20 year old air asssault
>graduate making the signals, they pay more attention to their eyes and what the
>crew chief is saying.
No, they pay attention to the landing instructions they are getting
from the guy on the ground, since he may just know a little bit more
about where you are landing than the crew.
>>> 2 people per company should know that, no more.
>>
>>And of course, those two people will always be in the right place, at the
>>right time, and not wounded or killed since they'll have special shields
>>which deflect the bullets.
>
>OK, make it 4, and any grandmother can prepare a slingload, it isn't rocket
>science, you don't need to make it book-perfect.
Ah. So you can guarntee that these 4 won't get killed? Oddly enough,
if everybody is trained, you don't need to worry about the specialists
getting waxed.
You know, that "this isn't rocket science" attitude lasts until you
have to explain why the load you were in charge failed to reach its
destination. You do it right, every time.
>>Except the helicopter tends to create a bit of wind, noise, could be too
>>high off the ground, might be taking fire, etc. Your average wall tends to
>>be pretty stationary, goes all the way to the ground, doesn't take much
>>fire.
>
>rappel is rappel, I have done it from a helo, no different than from the
>ground.
Really? So, when you rappel from a chopper, you have a solid surface
to brake against? How about fast roping? No landing extractions?
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
The SoldierGrrrl
>maybe in your army, in mine the crew chief opens the door and sticks his head
>out :)
>
>Atila
Ah. With the Chinooks I've seen, the chief is watching through a little
window. But that could be different for everyone. :)
Ace
On Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:30:29 GMT, in us.military.army
Replacement Tommel put fingers to keyboard and tapped away writing...
Message ID:- <Friu7.12546$ev2....@www.newsranger.com>
> >In article <20011002072131...@mb-mr.aol.com>, Legionair6 says...
> >
> >Anybody can make some hand
> >signals, have u never helped a friend out of a tight spot in a parking
> >lot????????????? A helo is just a car that moves in 3 dimensions instead of 2.
> >
>
> It's that third demension that makes it so tricky Atila...
A train, essentially, just moves in one direction - but driving a
train is more complicated than driving a car. Therefore, flying a
helo should be even easier as you can move in any direction, and
you're not restricted to just one or two.
>
> -Tom
>
> "True heroism is remarkedly sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to
> surprass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever
> cost." - Arthur Ashe
Best wishes, Ace
====================
Winner of July's us.* thread of the month award.
http://groups.google.com/groups?th=bb666680100d7e1,1
David Casey
> Ah. With the Chinooks I've seen, the chief is watching through a
> little window. But that could be different for everyone. :)
Check out the sling loading pictures on my website if anyone is interested
(or hasn't seen them yet). We did a lot of sling load training (the 101st
troops were nice enough to give us the class and there were a lot of
helicopters around) in Kosovo. Pretty neat I thought.
Legionair6
>That's why our system no longer allows healthy productive people on welfare.
>They'll survive or not on their own, just as you wish. Too bad your home
>country doesn't do the same.
>
I have seen some potentially productive people paying with food stamps. But you
are right, Europe should reduce their welfare system before it collapses. I am
talking from experience, I milked the system in 3 countries without having
never worked. For awhile, I was claiming unemployment both in my country and in
the UK (my friend was signing in the british unemployment office for me). Sorry
Ace for that, but it isn't my fault, it is the system's, fortunately the
British tabloid press reacted and the UK government put some limits on us
"benefits tourists" :)
Atila
Legionair6
>None of these armies have as many birds as the 101st. Name any one other
>army unit in the world that'll hot refuel and sling 450k-500k gallons of JP8
>a day just to keep their birds flying.
>
the US had an airmobile division (1st cav) with CH-47s before the air assault
school was created. The AASLT school is just a candy thrown at the 101st when
they lost their airborne status. It is a VERY expensive (and useless) candy.
Especially when I pay a third of my paycheck in taxes.
Atila
The SoldierGrrrl
>the US had an airmobile division (1st cav) with CH-47s before the air assault
>school was created. The AASLT school is just a candy thrown at the 101st when
>they lost their airborne status. It is a VERY expensive (and useless) candy.
>Especially when I pay a third of my paycheck in taxes.
>
>Atila
The 101st *was* the airmobile division, IIRC. And the 101st hasn't lost our
Airborne status. We still have it.
Legionair6
>The 101st *was* the airmobile division, IIRC. And the 101st hasn't lost our
>Airborne status. We still have it.
the first US airmobile division was the 1st cav. Second, the 101st IS NOT an
airborne division, as most of its members are not on jump status.
Atila
dvick
Uh-oh, now Atila is on his favorite topic of discussion after
prostitutes and welfare. Watch out!
DeathBunny
Many, like the Russians, use conscription.
The Russian military cycles every 6 months as the newest set comes in and
the oldest leave which prompts "basic" training every 6 or 12 months before
the unit is effective again.
The US military is long-service and all-volunteer without regular "back to
basic" cycles and downtime to bring the training back up to functional
levels. The Air Assault School is used to ensure soldiers transferring into
the Division (or others in various units of the US Army) have the basic
skills and knowledge to function when they arrive. Further training is
provided at the unit for more advanced skills.
Another thing you may be missing about other countries is the existence of
"in-house" schools for replacements or recruits into the brigades...
DeathBunny
DeathBunny
"Legionair6" <legio...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011002192208...@mb-mw.aol.com...
Actually, it was the 11th Airmobile Division before becoming the 1st
Cavalry...and they were experimental units at first. Most of the troops
spent months learning what they needed to know, both tactically and
otherwise.
The current school is the basic knowledge needed to effectively employ
helicopters the way the 101st does.
DeathBunny
DeathBunny
> dave casey wrote:
>
> >>>Learn about Helos, MEDEVAC, guiding copters with hand signals,
> >>>establishing PZs?LZs, ride around in a Black Hawk, tests ('Cause the
> >>>Army LOVES tests...)
> >>
> >> useless
> >
> >At least until you have wounded to get out.
>
> are u saying that a helicopter pilot needs somebody to guide him how to
> land??????? I bet they don't pay even attention to the 20 year old air
asssault
> graduate making the signals, they pay more attention to their eyes and
what the
> crew chief is saying.
>
someone who knows if helicopter X even has the room to land is a useful
skill...
The SoldierGrrrl
>the first US airmobile division was the 1st cav. Second, the 101st IS NOT an
>airborne division, as most of its members are not on jump status.
>
>Atila
Ah. So I was wrong about the airmobile unit. Thanks for that information.
I'm going to check on the Airborne status of the 101st, since I'm relatively
sure that we're an Airborne Division, but I could be wrong.
Replacement Tommel
>
>>From: legio...@aol.com
>
>>the first US airmobile division was the 1st cav. Second, the 101st IS NOT an
>>airborne division, as most of its members are not on jump status.
>>
>>Atila
>
>Ah. So I was wrong about the airmobile unit. Thanks for that information.
>I'm going to check on the Airborne status of the 101st, since I'm relatively
>sure that we're an Airborne Division, but I could be wrong.
You're Air Assault SG, all that means is that you rely on yourselves to get
around, unlike the poor 82nd who has to count on the USAF to get 'em going...
;-P Of course, the Pukin' Buzzards used to be an Airborne (Para) unit in the old
days, but they grew out of it...
Legionair6
>>the first US airmobile division was the 1st cav. Second, the 101st IS NOT an
>>airborne division, as most of its members are not on jump status.
>>
>>Atila
>
>Uh-oh, now Atila is on his favorite topic of discussion after
>prostitutes and welfare. Watch out!
ha ha ha Actually, since I moved temporarily to the USA (where prostitution
is prosecuted and street walkers are nasty and dangerous), I have specialized
in fat girls I pick up on the internet. Since about half the US women are fat,
a knuckle-dragging Neaderthal like myself seems like Adonis to some of these
birds :) Hey, they don't seem to mind my broken English, my receeding hair, my
putrid breath and my yellow, broken teeth.
Atila
The SoldierGrrrl
>around, unlike the poor 82nd who has to count on the USAF to get 'em going...
>;-P Of course, the Pukin' Buzzards used to be an Airborne (Para) unit in the
>old
>days, but they grew out of it...
>
>-Tom
Okay, but I still admit to some confusion. Airborne units are the ones
authorized to blouse the Class A's, correct? Then why does the 101st do it?
billh
"Legionair6"
But you
> are right, Europe should reduce their welfare system before it collapses.
I am
> talking from experience, I milked the system in 3 countries without having
> never worked
"..without having never worked"? So you worked the entire time? The fact
that you "milked the system" comes as no surprise.
Legionair6
>Okay, but I still admit to some confusion. Airborne units are the ones
>authorized to blouse the Class A's, correct? Then why does the 101st do it?
ha ha ha.... you can't define airborne by the way they dress :) Women, always
worrying about clothing :) The 101st IS NOT an airborne division (although a
few SMALL units there are), as most of its members aren't in jump status.
Atila
billh
"Legionair6"
Until you've served in the 101st you ought to reserve your comments on what
training is or is not required.
BTW, that 1/3 of your paycheck you pay in taxes is simply payback for
"milking the system" as you've claimed to have done. You were part of the
problem.
billh
"Legionair6"
> >None of these armies have as many birds as the 101st. Name any one other
> >army unit in the world that'll hot refuel and sling 450k-500k gallons of
JP8
> >a day just to keep their birds flying.
> >
>
> the US had an airmobile division (1st cav) with CH-47s before the air
assault
> school was created. The AASLT school is just a candy thrown at the 101st
when
> they lost their airborne status.
So, does this mean you can not name any one other army unit in the world
that'll hot refuel and sling 450k-500k gallons of JP8
a day just to keep their birds flying. You claim that so many other armies
do it. Name one.
DeathBunny
Replacement Tommel
The 101st blouses its dress A's because their lineage dates back to when they
really were an Airborne unit (in WW2). In other words - it's tradition.
Douglas Berry
"DeathBunny" <todkan...@home.com> warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
>Tradition...
Cue the first act of "Fiddler on the Roof"
Douglas Berry
legio...@aol.com (Legionair6) warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
>ha ha ha.... you can't define airborne by the way they dress :) Women, always
>worrying about clothing :) The 101st IS NOT an airborne division (although a
>few SMALL units there are), as most of its members aren't in jump status.
The correct unit designation is:
101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)
According to the US Army, it is an Airborne division, if only out of
tradition.
The SoldierGrrrl
>101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)
>
>According to the US Army, it is an Airborne division, if only out of
>tradition.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry
See, I learn new things all the time. Thanks to you and Tom for the pointers.
:)
The SoldierGrrrl
>ha ha ha.... you can't define airborne by the way they dress :) Women, always
>worrying about clothing :)
Hey, I like to look good, what can I say?
>101st IS NOT an airborne division (although a
>few SMALL units there are), as most of its members aren't in jump status.
>
>Atila
So, why do we wear the Airborne tab above the eagle? Is it just a bow to the
past? (I'm not trying to be a bitch, just genuinely curious.)
Legionair6
>So, why do we wear the Airborne tab above the eagle? Is it just a bow to the
>past? (I'm not trying to be a bitch, just genuinely curious.)
exactly, tradition....
atila
dvick
SoldierGrrrl) wrote:
See para c.(1)(a) and the end of para c.(3) from AR 670-1:
"c. Airborne insignia.
(1) Description. A white parachute and glider on a blue disk,
with a red border, approximately 2 1/4 inches in diameter.
(2) By whom worn.
(a) All personnel assigned to the 101st Airborne (Air Assault)
Division.
(b) Qualified airborne personnel detailed as Army recruiters.
( c ) Qualified airborne personnel assigned duty at brigade or
lower level at IET.
(d) Qualified airborne personnel assigned to a designated TOE/
TDA airborne position in nonairborne units who are on jump status.
(3) How worn. There are two different designs of this insignia.
Officers will wear the airborne insignia designed with the glider
facing forward when the insignia is worn centered on the right
curtain of the garrison cap, 1 inch form the front crease. Enlisted
personnel will wear the airborne insignia designed with the glider
facing forward when the insignia is worn centered on the left curtain
of the garrison cap, 1 inch from the front crease. Soldiers authorized
to wear this insignia are also authorized to wear bloused trousers or
slacks with the black combat boots."
I guess you wear your boots with slacks cuz they say so. The best
Army reason in the world.