rules tips

[Darrin]

I am an organizer of a league in St Louis, which has a mix of
beginners, experienced league players, and experienced club players.
I have been encouraged to send out a "rules tip" to the league each
week to try to help the league with understanding the rules better.
My problem is that, even though I have read the rules many times, and
I have been reading this list as a non-member for some time, I still
am not 100% confident in what I send out.

So, would you guys mind if I post a copy of my "rules tip" here for
comments before I send it to the league? I think that would greatly
improve the tips I am able to send out. Some of the specifics of the
tip relate to specific questions that have come up in the league I
organize.

Anyway, I am hoping you will not mind. Here is a tip that I would
very much like comments on for improvements.


Traveling occurs way, way more often than it is called in fall
league. Defensive players who call travel should be prepared to
explain (calmly) what they saw and why they called a travel if asked.
Offensive players should realize that even if they don't think they
traveled, they probably did. A few basics:

1) You are usually required to have a pivot. This is a part of your
body that is in continuous contact with the ground after you have come
to a stop and until the disc leaves your hand. This is usually the
left foot for righties and the right foot for lefties.

2) You may not drag your pivot before throwing. Jump passes are also
travels.

3) Players who are on the ground can stand up and re-establish a pivot
at the same spot on the ground. This is not a travel.

4) Players can throw from the ground. Or fake from the ground, stand
up and then throw.

5) Once you catch a disc, you are required to come to a stop as
quickly as possible, without changing direction. Failure to do so is
a travel. UNLESS you release the disc before your third ground
contact (still without speeding up or changing direction). This "give
and go" is OK, and not a travel. This is also the rule that makes the
greatest a legal play, and an exception to having to have a pivot.

6) In general, you are required to tap the disc to the ground before
putting the disc in play at any place on the field other than where
you pick it up. Failure to do so is a travel.

[gimp]

On Oct 25, 1:10 am, Darrin <speeg...@slu.edu> wrote:
> 4) Players can throw from the ground.  Or fake from the ground, stand
> up and then throw.

The second sentence of this one is NOT true in general. To be able to
fake while on the ground and then stand up without traveling pretty
much requires that your to be pivot was already in contact with the
ground and continuously maintains that contact while standing up.
That's not the easiest thing in the world to do. Generally, if you are
on the ground face down your feet are not in position to maintain
continuous contact as the most you could expect would be that the tips
of your toes MIGHT be touching and that when you stand, the tips
wouldn't be in contact anymore.

[Josh Drury]

Gimp, your comment was true for the 10th edition, but note the 11th
adds:

"XVI.J.2. Exceptions:
a) If a non-standing player loses contact with the pivot spot in order
to stand up, it is not a travel, provided the new pivot is established
at the same location."

So for point 4 in the original post I would just add that
clarification (OK to stand but must establish pivot at the same
spot). This is covered in point 3 but may be worth reiterating.

Also in point 1 where you say "usually required to have a pivot", it
may be useful to add something like "(see the exception in point 5)".
This clarifies what you mean by "usually".

[gimp]

My previous statement is still true in the 11th.
You didn't take into account the definition of the term pivot.
M. Pivot: The particular part of the body in continuous contact with a
single spot on the field during a
thrower’s possession once the thrower has come to a stop or has
attempted a throw or fake. When there is a
definitive spot for putting the disc into play, the part of the body
in contact with that spot is the pivot.

[Darrin]

Thank you for your comments. This question is exactly one of the
places I was not 100% sure of my "rule tip". It seemed to me that
the exception XVI.J.2 could apply even after the pivot has been set by
attempting a throw or a fake. I do not see why it would apply after
coming to a stop, but not apply after attempting a fake. And I
thought it would have to apply to at least one instance where a pivot
had been set, or else it isn't really an exception.

Thanks again,
Darrin

[Patrick Malka]

This is fine though, as far as I know.

A 'stopped' person who is lying on the ground, or otherwise not fully standing up, does have one or more pivots (chest, knee, etc...), and therefore can fake a throw legally. Then XVI.J.2.a can be invoked to correct the position without it being a travel.

So point 4 without any modification is completely true I think.

[Craig Temple]

No, that's not correct Gimp. I'm not sure how you think II.M
interferes with XVI.J.2, but they are consistent.

As quoted by Josh, you can break contact with the pivot spot, so long
as a "new pivot is established at the same location".

Are you suggesting that you can only stand so long as you keep the
same pivot at the same spot on the field? That isn't correct. The rule
is pretty clear that you can establish a "new pivot". I think you're
reading into XVI.J.2 that you are allowed to only 'reestablish the
same pivot'. That's not the case.

You're right that II.M says the pivot is the part of the body in
contact with the single spot on the field through the whole
possession, but XVI.J.2 is an exception which is more specific.

Craig

[gimp]

That's very interesting
(Keyboard batteries died)
Not going to argue further since what you say makes sense given the
word new in there.
I haven't heard anyone discuss it in play as a new (new as in 11th)
interpretation but as old as I am, haven't played a lot of club
lately.