latest interpretation of a valid pick call
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Steve Rieck a.k.a.Leak
Oct 27, 2010, 10:46:19 AM10/27/10
to UPA 11th edition rules
Howdy Gentlemen, Leaker here. Sorry to give you the bad news,
but we're going to become quite familiar in the near future....LOL
I bring a unique perspective with me since, I was totally immersed
in ultimate during its infancy, but have been completely isolated
from it for the past 30 yrs. due to physical restrictions, so I may
ask some dumb ?'s, & have some archaic ideas of Spirit of the Game, &
the onus of personal responsibility. I'm now 55, & back at it again,
going airborne horizontal, and renewing my membership in the
Raspberry club again.
I admit I orchestrated the scenario below to get one particular
answer, but was shocked that it was the opposite of what my
common sense told me it should be. I need to know what actions by the
O would be needed, so that this could never be considered a valid
call, such as if they were 25 feet apart so that it was impossible for
the D's to reach each other to collide
while still within 10 ft of their mark, then explain how common sense
confirms that this is a reasonable expectation to have for the
O to be forced to perform to avoid a fundamentally flawed call that
the D can use to recover when they are burned by the O.
....................The fundamental flaw is a any rule which validates
any call of a pick between any 2 or more D
players....................
I recently watched the western regionals in Santa Barbara, & it
seemed there was a pick called on nearly half of the plays
which is not condusive (sp) to enjoyable, exciting, spectator
friendly Ultimate, very disappointing to be sure....Leak
Hi Jon, since we're on picks already, I'll mention that rule was one
of my startling moments! After reading the rule book several times
incl. the annotated version,
The observers manual/ handbook a couple times, & approx 250 of the
350
plus blog topics, I realized that it really was true that, a pick
could be called by 2 defenders
who interferred (sp) with each other while chasing their O, as long
as
they meet certain criteria. This is not in line with any other sport
that I'm aware of.
Along these lines, please explain the proper call for the following
scenario, if you would be so kind sir :)
.........................The O floods their left sideline with the
entire stack, with a marked handler pivoting comfortably slightly
closer to the long axis than the inner edge
of the stack. Next, 2 O cutters bust out of the head of the stack,
basically side by side, to the wide open, vacated side of the field,
followed by their markers in hot pursuit, also side by side, but
already burned, & 10 ft behind, then the 2 O, still shoulder to
shoulder, veer down-field approx 15 yards from the open side line and
continue parrallel (sp) to it down the field, the 2 D's still
pursueing as hard as they can, but still 10 ft behind. In fact
they're trying so hard that one or the other
stumbles a bit and they take each other out and go down in a heap. As
they jump up unhurt, they call a pick, stating they were with-in 10
ft, and it was cuz the O
players were running shoulder to shoulder that they had to run so
close to each other that they tangled up........Lets start with the
disc hasn't been thrown yet, then
move on to, the disc is in the air if their is a difference so
far?......................Is this a valid pick as per the 11th?
but we're going to become quite familiar in the near future....LOL
I bring a unique perspective with me since, I was totally immersed
in ultimate during its infancy, but have been completely isolated
from it for the past 30 yrs. due to physical restrictions, so I may
ask some dumb ?'s, & have some archaic ideas of Spirit of the Game, &
the onus of personal responsibility. I'm now 55, & back at it again,
going airborne horizontal, and renewing my membership in the
Raspberry club again.
I admit I orchestrated the scenario below to get one particular
answer, but was shocked that it was the opposite of what my
common sense told me it should be. I need to know what actions by the
O would be needed, so that this could never be considered a valid
call, such as if they were 25 feet apart so that it was impossible for
the D's to reach each other to collide
while still within 10 ft of their mark, then explain how common sense
confirms that this is a reasonable expectation to have for the
O to be forced to perform to avoid a fundamentally flawed call that
the D can use to recover when they are burned by the O.
....................The fundamental flaw is a any rule which validates
any call of a pick between any 2 or more D
players....................
I recently watched the western regionals in Santa Barbara, & it
seemed there was a pick called on nearly half of the plays
which is not condusive (sp) to enjoyable, exciting, spectator
friendly Ultimate, very disappointing to be sure....Leak
Hi Jon, since we're on picks already, I'll mention that rule was one
of my startling moments! After reading the rule book several times
incl. the annotated version,
The observers manual/ handbook a couple times, & approx 250 of the
350
plus blog topics, I realized that it really was true that, a pick
could be called by 2 defenders
who interferred (sp) with each other while chasing their O, as long
as
they meet certain criteria. This is not in line with any other sport
that I'm aware of.
Along these lines, please explain the proper call for the following
scenario, if you would be so kind sir :)
.........................The O floods their left sideline with the
entire stack, with a marked handler pivoting comfortably slightly
closer to the long axis than the inner edge
of the stack. Next, 2 O cutters bust out of the head of the stack,
basically side by side, to the wide open, vacated side of the field,
followed by their markers in hot pursuit, also side by side, but
already burned, & 10 ft behind, then the 2 O, still shoulder to
shoulder, veer down-field approx 15 yards from the open side line and
continue parrallel (sp) to it down the field, the 2 D's still
pursueing as hard as they can, but still 10 ft behind. In fact
they're trying so hard that one or the other
stumbles a bit and they take each other out and go down in a heap. As
they jump up unhurt, they call a pick, stating they were with-in 10
ft, and it was cuz the O
players were running shoulder to shoulder that they had to run so
close to each other that they tangled up........Lets start with the
disc hasn't been thrown yet, then
move on to, the disc is in the air if their is a difference so
far?......................Is this a valid pick as per the 11th?
Jon Bauman
Oct 27, 2010, 1:42:41 PM10/27/10
to upa_11th_ed...@googlegroups.com
I'm not sure why you started a new thread for this rather than following up to the original one.
In any case, if the defenders are more than 3m from the offensive players they are pursuing, it's not a valid pick call. And if they are within 3m, but they wouldn't have had a play even without the pick, completed passes stay complete. Only in the case that the offense's movement led to a situation that interfered with the defense's ability to safely make a play does in revert to thrower. This seems both fair and logical to me.
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Steve Rieck a.k.a.Leak
Oct 30, 2010, 2:33:46 PM10/30/10
to UPA 11th edition rules
Hi Jon, I'm new to the web, so not sure about protocol, sorry. I
didn't believe there was any additional cost to a separate thread, so
excuse me if I'm mistaken.
Since this is about a different issue than Toothe's totally valid
pick call, as opposed to this situation, I didn't want to hijack his
thread.
I'll admit that I believe this current connotation of the pick rule
is totally off kilter, & intend to develope strategies to render it
mute in all the games I coach.
At the western regionals, which I just took stats of many games
at, the pick calls were so disruptive, to the flow and the SPIRIT OF
THE GAME, with obvious
abuses occurring to bail defenders out when they burned, were so
aggregious (sp) that it is definitely bad for Ultimate in both the
short term and long term.
So, I need to get my understanding of the of all angles as
accurate as possible, so I can be sure to stay absolutely within the
letter of the Law
I firmly believe that SOTG is fundamental to Ultimate. Personal
integrity, courtesy, playing with honor, sportsmanship, are foremost
in my approach.
I beg you to indulge me a little, because this issue is critical
to Ultimate. I'm happy to discuss any questions etc. which you or
anyone might put forward,
in fact I invite them to broaden the spectrum of the
discussion...............................Thank You in
Advance.....SPREAD THE JAM.......Leaker
On Oct 27, 10:42 am, Jon Bauman <baum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure why you started a new thread for this rather than following up
> to the original one.
>
> In any case, if the defenders are more than 3m from the offensive players
> they are pursuing, it's not a valid pick call. And if they are within 3m,
> but they wouldn't have had a play even without the pick, completed passes
> stay complete. Only in the case that the offense's movement led to a
> situation that interfered with the defense's ability to safely make a play
> does in revert to thrower. This seems both fair and logical to me.
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Steve Rieck a.k.a.Leak
> <riec...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > upa_11th_edition_...@googlegroups.com<upa_11th_edition_rules% 2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
didn't believe there was any additional cost to a separate thread, so
excuse me if I'm mistaken.
Since this is about a different issue than Toothe's totally valid
pick call, as opposed to this situation, I didn't want to hijack his
thread.
I'll admit that I believe this current connotation of the pick rule
is totally off kilter, & intend to develope strategies to render it
mute in all the games I coach.
At the western regionals, which I just took stats of many games
at, the pick calls were so disruptive, to the flow and the SPIRIT OF
THE GAME, with obvious
abuses occurring to bail defenders out when they burned, were so
aggregious (sp) that it is definitely bad for Ultimate in both the
short term and long term.
So, I need to get my understanding of the of all angles as
accurate as possible, so I can be sure to stay absolutely within the
letter of the Law
I firmly believe that SOTG is fundamental to Ultimate. Personal
integrity, courtesy, playing with honor, sportsmanship, are foremost
in my approach.
I beg you to indulge me a little, because this issue is critical
to Ultimate. I'm happy to discuss any questions etc. which you or
anyone might put forward,
in fact I invite them to broaden the spectrum of the
discussion...............................Thank You in
Advance.....SPREAD THE JAM.......Leaker
On Oct 27, 10:42 am, Jon Bauman <baum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure why you started a new thread for this rather than following up
> to the original one.
>
> In any case, if the defenders are more than 3m from the offensive players
> they are pursuing, it's not a valid pick call. And if they are within 3m,
> but they wouldn't have had a play even without the pick, completed passes
> stay complete. Only in the case that the offense's movement led to a
> situation that interfered with the defense's ability to safely make a play
> does in revert to thrower. This seems both fair and logical to me.
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Steve Rieck a.k.a.Leak
> > .
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