anarchy begins at home
Pirate King
just to say hello and introduce myself, and offer many thanks for the
resource. What follows is not a question on a particular topic but if
anyone feels like responding with similar or different experiences or
ideas, please do.
Unschooling's been part of my life since, as a teenager from a very
academic background, I got involved in a utopian education experiment
for "gifted" children. Then I read Deschooling Society and Summerhill,
and started deschooling myself - a process that's still going on. And I
decided I would unschool my own children (as and when).
Now I am in that position for real and until recently, it hadn't been
going too well. My partner A and I have 2 daughters (S is 3, N is 8
months). We live in a city with no culture of unschooling - in fact
it's an intensely over-schooled culture. While school isn't
"obligatory" till 6, nearly everybody sends their kids full-time
(sometimes longer depending on the parents' schedule) the year they
turn 3 - and many kids are dumped on daycare at 4 months old.
We've had an intensely stressful year: aside from N's birth, we have
been building a house and coping with many other responsibilities
(mostly self-inflicted). A's maternity leave ended in October and she
wanted S to start public school at the same time, so she would have the
same experience as the kids her age in the neighbourhood, get exposure
to the local minority language (which is the language of instruction in
most public schools) and just give us time to do our own thing. This
also coincided with me having a lot of work piled up (I freelance from
home) and trying to fit this around caring for N and getting the roof
finished on weekends...
So, I acquiesced to S going to school, mornings only. The school were
very inflexible about it: noone has ever tried to send their child part
time before. We just ignored them and picked her up at lunchtime. After
a week or so of tears, she settled down, and it appears that they
didn't have too negative an experience, but would still say every
single morning, "I don't want to go to school." (I am proud of her
stubbornness.)
Aside from this, our home hadn't exactly been unschooled. Parenting S
as we were doing it then (fixed bedtimes, making her eat her meals,
controlling TV etc.) led to endless conflicts. There seemed to be no
time for anything, and we were constantly rushing her, so S dawdled
over breakfast and bedtime. A started calling her lazy and
disrespectful or something similar.
The last two weeks have been different. Finding this discussion group
and others, reading the advice and stories of people who are
unschooling, and realising that unschooling wasn't about "school"
learning at all (the name is rather misleading) but was really about
treating children as people first. Not setting yourself up in a
position of power over them, based on your superior size and knowledge,
but developing a relationship of mutual respect. Anarchy begins at
home.
Just the knowledge that hundreds or thousands of other people are
trying to follow the same path has given me the confidence to start
putting this into practice with S and with A: trying to gain the trust
of a rebellious child and a skeptical partner. Instead of being "firm"
and inflexible, finding ways to let everyone join in the game. Here's
how it went today.
- Breakfast time: S doesn't want to drink her orange juice. We both
want her to drink it. This could have degenerated into a row. Instead,
I tell her a story about the orange, what a long journey it has come on
specially to end up in her tummy and how disappointed the orange will
be. She drinks it and is praised - not ideal, but better than being
punished/shamed. Nobody shouts.
- School finished today (I think) but I for the last three days I
didn't bother to take her to the school bus. Instead we stayed home and
played.
- Morning: Playing music with S and N. S has a thing about taking toys
from N, which I'm worried about. She also alternates between being
affectionate and being rough with her sister, another concern. But
mostly she is happy to sing and play with her toys.
N goes for her nap and S wants to watch her Charlie and Lola dvd (sweet
animated stories). OK then. We watch it together then I check my email
(computer in the same room). She wants to watch more; I suggest
watching some of the Cave of the Yellow Dog instead (a fantastic film
about a Mongolian nomadic family.) We do that for a while till N wakes
up.
- Late morning: A stressful moment: N won't eat her puree (it's pretty
disguting). I give her a mashed banana instead. I start making cookies.
The phone rings when my hands are covered in dough. It's A saying she
will be late. I say I'm at my wits end and stressed out, which is true.
S is having chocolate milk and bread-and-honey, at her request, which
is hardly junk food.
- Lunchtime: A comes home and we have lunch. She is tired and skeptical
that these new permissive methods are going to work. Points to the
messy state of S's room as an example. While she goes to make a phone
call, I talk to S and suggest we tidy her room as a present for mummy.
She eventually agrees and helps me tidy up. A comes in and praises Sofi
and hugs her. A and N go for a nap.
- Afternoon: S doesn't want to have a nap (until recently we were
putting her down for one every day, regardless of need.) She wants to
play Go instead, which I taught her the rules of a few weeks ago. We
play, she has trouble concentrating, but manages to get mostly through
the game (half an hour) with much prompting from me.
- Evening: S and I go out to the playground. It's very cold and I
forgot her gloves. We eat an apple and play together, since there are
no other kids there. We have a lot of fun. S gets too involved in the
game and wets herself (has happened quite a bit lately). I get a bit
annoyed. We go home.
- Later: we get home again and have to go out to buy materials for
christmas cards. When we get back S has a bath, we sit down and have
dinner. I clean the kitchen while A puts S to bed with no struggle,
which is a first in a long while.
A day with hardly any anger, no shouting and no coercion. I think it
may have been our first real day of unschooling.
**pirate king**
PS: Crossposted to AlwaysUnschooling group.
Sandra Dodd
you seem eager to move toward unschooling, I'm going to show you some
things you showed us (probably without meaning to):
Unschooling isn't anarchy. When you get it, you'll all be working
together for the same goals in the same way all the time, day and night.
-=-...and just give us time to do our own thing-=-
It seems you're figuring this out, but when you have very young
children, your own thing IS being parents.
The time you withhold from them now will have to be made up later
with interest. It's easier when they're little, and more important
to them, too.
-=-Aside from this, our home hadn't exactly been unschooled. Parenting S
as we were doing it then (fixed bedtimes, making her eat her meals,
controlling TV etc.) led to endless conflicts. There seemed to be no
time for anything, and we were constantly rushing her, so S dawdled
over breakfast and bedtime. A started calling her lazy and
disrespectful or something similar.
-=-
But you said "dawdled."
If the only way she could have any power, and the only way to get her
own way was to NOT do what you were demanding, she wasn't
"dawdling." She was expressing herself pretty clearly (or trying
to). That was just not as blatant as saying "I don't want to go to
school."
-=- After a week or so of tears, she settled down-=-
She started giving up, but you called it "settled down."
I'm pointing these things out in hopes that you'll try to examine
your own word choices. When someone with a small vocabulary chooses
words it doesn't show as much subtlety or reveal as much about their
thinking as when someone with a large vocabulary chooses.
-=-N goes for her nap and S wants to watch her Charlie and Lola dvd
(sweet
animated stories). OK then. We watch it together then I check my email
(computer in the same room). She wants to watch more; I suggest
watching some of the Cave of the Yellow Dog instead (a fantastic film
about a Mongolian nomadic family.) -=-
Why?
Why couldn't she have her way?
Why can't she make a little choice like that?
-=-- Breakfast time: S doesn't want to drink her orange juice. We both
want her to drink it. This could have degenerated into a row. Instead,
I tell her a story about the orange, what a long journey it has come on
specially to end up in her tummy and how disappointed the orange will
be. She drinks it and is praised - not ideal, but better than being
punished/shamed. Nobody shouts.
-=-
"We both want her to drink it." Who's "we"? You and the mom, I think.
When what you want doesn't so quickly outweigh what your daughter
wants, you'll be getting there.
You lied about oranges to coerce her, so I question your summary
statement that there was no coercion.
It's not as bad as yelling or shaming. (You would have punished her
for not drinking orange juice? That hot shame in the belly has never
been good for anyone's digestion.)
-=-A comes home and we have lunch. She is tired and skeptical
that these new permissive methods are going to work. -=-
"Permissive" has a bad connotation.
If you look at it more in terms of choices and learning, I think
you'll have peace more quickly.
http://sandradodd.com/choice
http://sandradodd.com/nest
-=-She wants to
play Go instead, which I taught her the rules of a few weeks ago. We
play, she has trouble concentrating, but manages to get mostly through
the game (half an hour) with much prompting from me.-=-
Why didn't you let her quit the moment she was done?
-=-- Evening: S and I go out to the playground. It's very cold and I
forgot her gloves. We eat an apple and play together, since there are
no other kids there. We have a lot of fun. S gets too involved in the
game and wets herself (has happened quite a bit lately). I get a bit
annoyed. We go home.-=-
Was there a toilet at the playground?
Did you remind her to go before you left?
Was she really "too involved" in the game? Can one be "too involved"
in a game?
-=-A day with hardly any anger, no shouting and no coercion. I think it
may have been our first real day of unschooling.-=-
It was a pretty big one! A pretty good one. But you can get closer
to unschooling. Lots of people here can help.
Sandra
Betsy Hill
may have been our first real day of unschooling. **
I definitely encourage you to keep walking in the unschooling
direction. You can definitely have a life full of joy and love, and in
the long run your children will amaze you.
Right now I have a bit of an impression that you are enthusiastic about
being a freer parent because you don't like the conflict. Imagine how
much your older daughter doesn't like experiencing conflict w. someone
so large and so important to her. Please try to imagine her point of
view as much as you can throughout your day.
Best wishes,
Betsy
Sandra Dodd
personifying the orange. On one level it's just a cute story to tell
a little girl, but that's not a level that will lead to an
understanding of unschooling.
Unschooling, when it works wholly and fully and for a long time,
involves the relationship between the child and her parents. There
will be people who will hoot that statement down, but I challenge any
of them to show me over a dozen years of unschooling, uninterrupted
by school or fighting or shame. I've seen some of the people who say
"Unschooling is no more than not having your kids in school," and
before long they have their kids in school, or have started using
structure because, they say, unschooling doesn't work.
Unschooling worked at my house, and I think it's because I moved away
from compromise every time it came up, and went with the relationship
and the peace and choices.
In a case in which the child wants something and the two parents want
something else, there's a crux of trust. The child learns, in any
case. But will she learn that parents can't be trusted and don't
respect her?
Should the world be democratic to the point that what a majority
wants is to be imposed on the minority at every level? Yeah, about
building roads, maybe engineers get the biggest votes and lots of
people can request a different route. On financial decisions,
economists and business advisors made decisions others in the company
or the general public can't explain or understand. But let's talk
orange juice.
A little girl doesn't want to drink orange juice. Maybe it's
bitter. Maybe her stomach doesn't feel like having something acidic
right then. Maybe she doesn't want to drink anything . Maybe she
would've preferred water. First, she won't learn what she needs, and
learn to listen to her body if people keep telling her what she
should or must eat and drink and when and how much.
But in the example given, the parents AND the orange (against its
will) ganged up on the child to give her a choice:
orange juice or guilt
orange juice or be rude to the orange
orange juice or don't love parents
The result won't be the benefit of vitamin C. That could be gotten
other ways. The result will more likely be erosion of trust and a
delay of clear thinking about such things.
Maybe the story of the orange was told humorously and lightly so she
knew it was friendly fiction. If so, I withdraw my concern.
If it was told earnestly, with the intent to make her think oranges
have awareness of such things, the concern remains.
Sandra
Pirate King
>
Thanks for your comments Sandra and Betsy, let me clarify a few things.
Anyone else who has comments, please fire away...
> Your account of conscious changes is fun and exciting, and because you seem eager to move toward unschooling, I'm going to show you some things you showed us (probably without meaning to):
>
>
Well, I meant to show the group, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it
here )
> Unschooling isn't anarchy. When you get it, you'll all be working together for the same goals in the same way all the time, day and night.
>
I said "Not setting yourself up in a position of power over them, based
on your superior size and knowledge, but developing a relationship of
mutual respect. Anarchy begins at home." I was alluding to "anarchy" in
the sense of "a harmonious condition of society in which government is
abolished as unnecessary" and not in the sense of "utter lawlessness,
chaos, complete disorder" (my dictionary = Chambers.)
I think unschooling and anarchy in the former sense are pretty much
synonymous...
> -=-...and just give us time to do our own thing-=-
>
> It seems you're figuring this out, but when you have very young children, your own thing IS being parents.
>
>
Sorry, an ambiguous statement by me. I should have said "deal with the
many other things we have on our plate." ("coping with many other
responsibilities"). I don't want people to think that we are going out
to the movies or something. Illness, work, family, community
involvement... lots of stuff.
> -=-Aside from this, our home hadn't exactly been unschooled. Parenting S
> as we were doing it then (fixed bedtimes, making her eat her meals,
> controlling TV etc.) led to endless conflicts. There seemed to be no
> time for anything, and we were constantly rushing her, so S dawdled
> over breakfast and bedtime. A started calling her lazy and
> disrespectful or something similar.
> -=-
>
> But you said "dawdled."
>
>
dawdle: "to act or move slowly, to waste time by trifling." She was
dawdling. No moral judgement implied on my part. I understand the
motivation behind her dawdling.
> -=- After a week or so of tears, she settled down-=-
>
> She started giving up, but you called it "settled down."
>
>
Actually, like I say [... would still say every single morning, "I
don't want to go to school." (I am proud of her stubbornness.)], I was
proud (and encouraged) to see that she had NOT given up hope, because
she still told us that she would prefer not to go to school. Every day.
But I think she did start to adjust to the school routine and get to
know the people there. That is not to say it's a good thing, but she
_did_ start to settle down.
> I'm pointing these things out in hopes that you'll try to examine your own word choices.
>
Thanks.
> -=-N goes for her nap and S wants to watch her Charlie and Lola dvd (sweet
> animated stories). OK then. We watch it together then I check my email
> (computer in the same room). She wants to watch more; I suggest
> watching some of the Cave of the Yellow Dog instead (a fantastic film
> about a Mongolian nomadic family.) -=-
>
> Why?
> Why couldn't she have her way?
> Why can't she make a little choice like that?
>
>
Because we hadn't watched Yellow Dog in a long while, I thought she
might have forgotten about it, she might like a change from Charlie and
Lola. She agreed and we watched that one. I would have done the same
thing with an adult.
> -=-- Breakfast time: S doesn't want to drink her orange juice. We both
> want her to drink it. This could have degenerated into a row. Instead,
> I tell her a story about the orange, what a long journey it has come on
> specially to end up in her tummy and how disappointed the orange will
> be. She drinks it and is praised - not ideal, but better than being
> punished/shamed. Nobody shouts.
> -=-
>
> "We both want her to drink it." Who's "we"? You and the mom, I think.
>
>
Correct.
> When what you want doesn't so quickly outweigh what your daughter wants, you'll be getting there.
>
>
I agree. I think Vitamin C is very important, though. Maybe we should
get her some chewy tablets or something instead.
> You lied about oranges to coerce her, so I question your summary statement that there was no coercion.
>
>
coerce: "to restrain by force, to compel". There was no coercion.
I told her a story "about the orange, what a long journey it has come
on specially to end up in her tummy and how disappointed the orange
will be."
It _had_ come on a long journey, actually (we don't live in an orange
growing region - I was telling her how her food gets to the table), and
who knows what the orange's feelings may be in the matter? Do
unschoolers never tell their children things they do not know to be
literally and scientifically true?
However, the point in Sandra's second email about the tone is well
taken. And I have a feeling maybe the acidity disagrees with her - I
now remember she said she had a tummy ache after drinking half a glass
of the juice. Hmm!
> It's not as bad as yelling or shaming. (You would have punished her for not drinking orange juice? That hot shame in the belly has never been good for anyone's digestion.)
>
>
Punished, no, but before we might have told her she couldn't get down
from the table until she drank it. That is coercion.
> -=-A comes home and we have lunch. She is tired and skeptical
> that these new permissive methods are going to work. -=-
>
> "Permissive" has a bad connotation.
> If you look at it more in terms of choices and learning, I think you'll have peace more quickly.
>
>
I'm paraphrasing A, here. The word isn't my own judgement. I guess
"permissive" is how many parents would describe unschooling methods.
>
> -=-She wants to
> play Go instead, which I taught her the rules of a few weeks ago. We
> play, she has trouble concentrating, but manages to get mostly through
> the game (half an hour) with much prompting from me.-=-
>
> Why didn't you let her quit the moment she was done?
>
>
She didn't want to quit - I asked her several times, shall we put the
game away? - but her attention drifted and I brought it back. The
ritual of Go (an oriental game) is that you start the game with a bow
and finish with a bow. It wouldn't be in the spirit of the game to
start playing and then just wander off. At least that's the way I was
taught.
> -=-- Evening: S and I go out to the playground. It's very cold and I
> forgot her gloves. We eat an apple and play together, since there are
> no other kids there. We have a lot of fun. S gets too involved in the
> game and wets herself (has happened quite a bit lately). I get a bit
> annoyed. We go home.-=-
>
> Was there a toilet at the playground?
>
No, but she knows you can just take a pee in the bushes if need be
(it's accepted here).
> Did you remind her to go before you left?
>
No, I should have done.
> Was she really "too involved" in the game? Can one be "too involved" in a game?
>
Good point!
> -=-A day with hardly any anger, no shouting and no coercion. I think it
> may have been our first real day of unschooling.-=-
>
> It was a pretty big one! A pretty good one. But you can get closer to unschooling. Lots of people here can help.
>
>
I look forward to it.
**pirate king**
queenj...@yahoo.com
> here )
I think she was referring to issues that came to light from your post,
that you didnt purposely put there (like thinking you handled the OJ
situation well, avoiding conflict and using persuasion instead), but an
experienced unschooler might read that part and see a lot of coercion
and guilt.
> I was alluding to "anarchy" in
> the sense of "a harmonious condition of society in which government is
> abolished as unnecessary" and not in the sense of "utter lawlessness,
> chaos, complete disorder" (my dictionary = Chambers.)
> I think unschooling and anarchy in the former sense are pretty much
> synonymous...
Yes, i agree. It was clear to me after reading your post, that you
meant anarchy as in anarchism...the political philosophy. In which
everyone has a voice to be heard, and where we should try as much as
possible to find a way for all members of a group to get what they want
without hurting anyone else. Sandra mentioned something about
democracy, in which majority rules(and how thats not good for a happy
household.) I think anarchy (not in the chaos sense) is closer to what
unschooling is, if we had to pick a political/philosophical model for
describing our family. However, i think its better to just think in
terms of a happy family trying their best to all get along joyfully.
I have very positive connations to the word "anarchy" as i considered
myself an anarchist in college, read alot about it, about the prominent
anarchists in the early part of the 20th century and their struggles.
(The best book i read about anarchism when i was first learning about
it was a children's book! Very clearly and simply written and really
cut through all the dry Russian philosophy i was trying to absorb.) But
of course most people use the term "anarchy" to mean chaos, and
mainstream parents apply that esp. to unschoolers, so probably not the
best word to use in your intro post. Its kind of a hot button word.;o)
> dawdle: "to act or move slowly, to waste time by trifling." She was
> dawdling. No moral judgement implied on my part. I understand the
> motivation behind her dawdling.
Dawdling definitely has a negative connatation.I've never heard it used
positively, ever. People say "dawdled" when they mean the person was
taking an unusually long time to do something they should have
completed long ago. I have found choosing words carefully, and choosing
words that are more positive, help me a great deal in viewing my child
and his choices more positively. In the above definition it says "to
waste time" ...not "to spend time" or "to take time" but to waste.
Waste doesnt have a positive connatation either. In fact, i dont think
"trifling" is meant in a good way either. ("to pass time idly or
frivolously; waste time; idle" and Idly is defined as"not working or
active; unemployed; doing nothing: idle workers;not spent or filled
with activity: idle hours;of no real worth, importance, or
significance: idle talk. habitually doing nothing or avoiding work;
lazy. ;rivolous;meaningless;etc)
> coerce: "to restrain by force, to compel". There was no coercion.
Coerce:to compel by force, intimidation, *or authority,* esp. without
regard for *individual desire* or volition:
She didnt want to drink her juice, but because you are her parent, and
you felt she needed the Vit C, you convinced her to do it anyway. I
think the more you delve into the finer aspects of unschooling, you'll
see all the little coercive ways parents get their kids to comply. I
still do it myself. I have to stop myself from asking my son "Are you
SURE you dont want to do xyz???" Its easy to see coercion when its
obvious...like "If you don't do XYZ i will spank you" its harder to see
it when its more subtle, but when the parent is nonetheless invested in
the outcome, and trying to pressure their child to change their mind
about something. Not all coercion is bad. I'm not striving for a
coercion free household. But i try to be aware of it when it occurs.
> Punished, no, but before we might have told her she couldn't get down
> from the table until she drank it. That is coercion.
I would consider that punishment as well. Its not much different from
Time Out.
> She didn't want to quit - I asked her several times, shall we put the
> game away? - but her attention drifted and I brought it back. The
> ritual of Go (an oriental game) is that you start the game with a bow
> and finish with a bow. It wouldn't be in the spirit of the game to
> start playing and then just wander off. At least that's the way I was
> taught.
My son and i play Go on the computer sometimes. No bowing involved.
While its a nice tradition if you want it, i am not sure you should
hold a three yr old to it. Could you leave the game set up, and take a
break whenever she wanted, without being "Done" and putting it away.
What if she knew that you could play for ten minutes, go watch a video,
and the game would be there exactly as before when she was ready? She
might have been somewhere between "done" and "game finished."
Overall, it seems to me you're trying really hard, and your kids' lives
will be the better for it. Hopefully your partner will come around!!<g>
I really wish i would have found this list when my son was three yrs
old, our lives would have been so much better much sooner, and it
couldve prevented alot of damage. But, he was pulled out of school at
age 7, is now age 10, and is a very loving, empathetic, vibrant,
creative, responsible kid. I wouldnt have it any other way.
Katherine
Amy Carpenter-Leugs
==.the political philosophy. In which
> everyone has a voice to be heard, and where we should try as much as
> possible to find a way for all members of a group to get what they want
In a family setting, consensual living might be a good term for it.
There's a Yahoo! group that explores that very nicely:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/
Peace,
Amy
--
Fresh From the Universe
www.geocities.com/freshfromtheuniverse
Astrology, Tarot Cards, and Dream Work
Specializing in Children and Families
"It is not a slight thing when they, who are so fresh from God, love us."
-- Charles Dickens
Sandra Dodd
> dawdle: "to act or move slowly, to waste time by trifling." She was
> dawdling. No moral judgement implied on my part. I understand the
> motivation behind her dawdling.
>
Dawdling definitely has a negative connatation.I've never heard it used
positively, ever. -=-
Right. And "waste time by trifling" contains TWO words with negative
connotations.
-=-In the above definition it says "to
waste time" ...not "to spend time" or "to take time" but to waste.
Waste doesnt have a positive connatation either. In fact, i dont think
"trifling" is meant in a good way either. ("to pass time idly or
frivolously; waste time; idle" and Idly is defined as"not working or
active; unemployed; doing nothing: idle workers;not spent or filled
with activity: idle hours;of no real worth, importance, or
significance: idle talk. habitually doing nothing or avoiding work;
lazy. ;rivolous;meaningless;etc)-=-
Yes. <g> I'd written my comment above before reading the rest of
what Katherine wrote.
Sandra
Jennifer
--- Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:
> -=-- Evening: S and I go out to the playground. It's
> very cold and I
> forgot her gloves. We eat an apple and play
> together, since there are
> no other kids there. We have a lot of fun. S gets
> too involved in the
> game and wets herself (has happened quite a bit
> lately). I get a bit
> annoyed. We go home.-=-
>
> Was there a toilet at the playground?
> Did you remind her to go before you left?
> Was she really "too involved" in the game? Can one
> be "too involved"
> in a game?
This reminds me of something that happened a couple
weeks ago: Some playgroup acquaintances came over our
house one afternoon, a mom with a 6 yo and 4 yo. We
were all in my backyard together.
About 10 minutes after they arrived, the 4 yo said he
needed to go potty. His mom started to lead him inside
my house, but before they got there, he wet his pants.
The mom told me, "I don't have anything for him in the
car, so I guess we have to go home."
I said, "Oh, I'm sure we have something he can wear!"
She said, "Thanks, but I think we need to go." And I
think she said something about "he needs to learn"
although possibly I'm just putting my spin on what I
imagined she was thinking.
So anyway, after a 10-minute playdate, they got in
their car to go home. The 6 yo was crying that they
had to leave. As they were getting in the car, I heard
the mom say to her at least twice, "It's not my
fault!"
It was very sad. I wish there was something I could
have done. I think a sort of low-level fear drives
parents, me included, to do strange things. (ie, "If I
let him borrow someone's clothes after he wets
himself, he'll be fifteen and still wetting himself")
Jenny
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Sandra Dodd
their car to go home. The 6 yo was crying that they
had to leave. As they were getting in the car, I heard
the mom say to her at least twice, "It's not my
fault!"
I have said to several other parents (not lately, but when my kids
were very young) that it wasn't fair that Holly be punished for
something their child did at home (or Marty or whoever). When
another kid would "lose the privilege" of coming over to our house
when it it had been arranged for a day or longer, which some did for
some little infraction, then Kirby "lost the privilege" too. It was
awful and I hated it.
Sandra
Pirate King
I didn't really intend to get bogged down in a discussion about the
meanings of words. I pulled out the dictionary in order to make it
clear that I used those particular words (anarchy... dawdled...
permissive... settled down... coercion etc) knowing their meanings.
Rather than saying "dawdle isn't a nice word, you shouldn't use it" I
think it is more sensible to say "OK, she dawdled, but is that
necessarily bad?"
Actually I love the ambiguity of words like "anarchy". Unschooling
might look like "anarchy" (lawlessness, chaos), but if you do it right
then it becomes "anarchy" (harmonious absence of government.) Used with
very deliberate forethought!
But anyway, I came here to talk about unschooling, not words...
Go and ritual: For me one of the best things about Go and other
oriental arts is the creation of a special space in which the art is
practiced. I have played it on the internet, too. It's something not to
take too seriously with a 3-year old, I agree.
Orange juice: Turns out the acidity bothers her tummy. She is fine
drinking it on a full stomach. Thanks!
Gotta go and play with N now.
**pirate king**
Sandra Dodd
meanings of words.-=-
It's not a bog, it's a bouquet!
Words are all we have here, and each poster gets to choose words.
Sandra
Linda Clement
Pirate King <pirat...@lesspress.com> wrote:
Hi group,
just to say hello and introduce myself, and offer many thanks for the
resource. What follows is not a question on a particular topic but if
anyone feels like responding with similar or different experiences or
ideas, please do.
K...
<snip>, "I don't want to go to school." (I am proud of her
stubbornness.)
- Breakfast time: S doesn't want to drink her orange juice. We both
want her to drink it. This could have degenerated into a row. Instead,
I tell her a story about the orange, what a long journey it has come on
specially to end up in her tummy and how disappointed the orange will
be. She drinks it and is praised - not ideal, but better than being
punished/shamed. Nobody shouts.
<snip>
A day with hardly any anger, no shouting and no coercion. I think it
may have been our first real day of unschooling.
**pirate king**
Um...I would not have called a day that included these two things a day without coercion. No anger, certainly, but implying (or stating) emotional experience in processed fruit is a long way from the truth, and that fib is designed to coerce her into doing what you want her to do.The truth is something like 'I've decided your body needs oj' and the story that was told was designed to (and effective at) coercing her into acquiessing. That it was done sans tears means it wasn't brutal coercion, not that there was none.Praise is for control, it is coercion.The internal, intrinsic and only real rewards for eating healthy foods is having as healthy a body as possible. While I will agree that it is no place for an 8yo to decide for themselves (without a lot of information beforehand) what is healthy vs. unhealthy... but that's fundamentally different from offering a range of healthy choices and letting the child's body decide what it needs today.Now, I'm not going to pretend that I live my life coercion-free, that I never tell my (now teenage) daughters what to do or when... but when I'm controlling their choices, I know it is what I'm doing (usually because they resist it <G>). Sometimes I back off, sometimes I stand my ground -- depends on the topic as much as the day.Besides, in my opinion (and many nutritionists and biochemists) orange juice is junk food (as in 'too many empty calories for the nutrients available) and unless you're squeezing it yourself, there IS sugar in unsweetened oj... even the 'not reconstituted' kind.Thatwomanin Canada
Sandra Dodd
http://sandradodd.com/anarchy
I don't think that link was brought up before
#2, about orange juice:
-=-Besides, in my opinion (and many nutritionists and biochemists)
orange juice is junk food (as in 'too many empty calories for the
nutrients available) and unless you're squeezing it yourself, there
IS sugar in unsweetened oj... even the 'not reconstituted' kind.-=-
"Junk food" is never a useful term when giving children honest choices.
There is "sugar" in most fruit. If you mean added, foreign sugar
(like cane sugar), it's not true that there's added sugar in all
orange juice, so it's no good to say it.
Sandra
Pirate King
Linda Clement wrote:
> Hi, Pirate, et al,
>
> This is a late post... but just a couple of comments from the sidelines in Canada...
>
...
>
> Now, I'm not going to pretend that I live my life coercion-free, that I never tell my (now teenage) daughters what to do or when... but when I'm controlling their choices, I know it is what I'm doing (usually because they resist it <G>). Sometimes I back off, sometimes I stand my ground -- depends on the topic as much as the day.
>
> Besides, in my opinion (and many nutritionists and biochemists) orange juice is junk food (as in 'too many empty calories for the nutrients available) and unless you're squeezing it yourself, there IS sugar in unsweetened oj... even the 'not reconstituted' kind.
>
> Thatwoman
> in Canada
OK, OK, I give in. You can call it coercion. It's true, we were trying
to get her to do something she didn't want. FWIW, we do actually
squeeze our own orange juice (in the winter). But S likes the carton
kind better. Ungrateful mite. :)
**pirateking**
Linda Clement
Linda Clement
Thatwoman in Canada
Pirate King <pirat...@lesspress.com> wrote:
OK, OK, I give in. You can call it coercion. It's true, we were trying
to get her to do something she didn't want. FWIW, we do actually
squeeze our own orange juice (in the winter). But S likes the carton
kind better. Ungrateful mite. :)
**pirateking**
__________________________________________________
Sandra Dodd
This is how oj made it to 'junk' status in my diet.-=-
When things are defined junk or trash or worthless, especially by
parents, especially to their unschooled children, then freedom and
free choices aren't going to be available. How can children think
for themselves when things are pre-decided and pre-labelled good and
bad and junk and trash?
-=- So, orange oil in oj is a non-starter, and it doesn't taste that
way when it's sold, so something has occured in the interim.-=-
"It seems like so probably" is neither logic nor evidence.
I'm not defending orange juice, I'm defending careful thought,
compassion for children, and those things that help unschooling work
as well as it can.
Sandra