curriculum search
fxfireob
i'm new to this group. first i'll intro us then on to my question:)
there are 4 of us - 2 adults and 2 kids. rene, our ds, is 10 and tala,
our dd, is 4. we're old hats at unschooling, the only way our kids
have ever been learned:) and it's been great.
now rene has asked to use a curriculum, he decided he wants more
discipline and a more 'classical' education. we've been looking around,
mostly interested in programs with an online component. he seems to be
most interested in k12 independent (k12.com) but laurel spring and
calvert also have online curriculum.
we did some online assesssment/placement tests (first tests he's taken
and he had fun:) and he is high in reading and about at "grade" in
grammar & math. the programs i've mentioned are flexible and self paced
(i think:)
so my question we're coming at the curriculum after unschooling does
anyone here have any reccommendations? we are secular and most
interested in a more socratic appraoch but online testing is fine -
like i said he seems to like taking them:)
many thanks,
susan
Sandra Dodd
so my question we're coming at the curriculum after unschooling does
anyone here have any reccommendations? we are secular and most
interested in a more socratic appraoch but online testing is fine -
like i said he seems to like taking them:)
fxfireob
simply misunderstood and believe i'm the one wanting the curriculum.
the desire to use a curriculum is coming from our children, perhaps
because they have never been in a structured environment (no daycare,
no school, no church, no classes of any kind, no formal dinners or
weddings ... - we did go to a play once but it was a comedy/musical so
it was expected that the audience would respond exuberantly:) that they
are now curious what it would be like to have some guidelines to play
with. our core philosophy is always honor the child's drives and wishes
while surrounding them with a rich environment.*
so the idea to try a curriculum orginated with our 10 yo (11 in
september). he is completely self motivated (i didn't even "potty
train" him:). it seems the desire began because he's been wanting to
learn physics. he understand some advanced concepts like sting theory
but realized he didn't understand the math and when he looks at
calculus he wants to learn it but he knows he doesn't have the
foundation math down. he experienced the similar thing with english.
he reads very well and now is interested in writing so wants to learn
more about grammar and is now starting to teach himself to print and
write and read cursive.
from my reading of holt etc (i started reading unschooling writers over
20 years ago, well before i had children) all is fair game for an
unschooler - it's the system not the materials that is the problem. so
the reason i asked this question here was because i wanted
recommendations of resources that would allow my son to stay at the
helm of his own learning process.
i am sorry if i offended you with my question but looking to a
unschooling list is the only place i would go to look for advise in
resolving this seemly contradictory request. i understand that most
people move from a more structured approach to a less structured one
but in our case it is the reverse. in your response you seem to be in
judgement of my child's choice to unschool using a curriculum. you go
so far as to say we are not unschooling, but this assumption is wrong.
my children are unschooled learning all the time using anything that
they find interesting, and i am here to honor their choices. in doing
this we discuss with them ways to best meet those requests as well as
discuss the possible consequences to various choices so they can
achieve their long-term goals while allowing us to adjust things as
their goals change.
bottom-line: the choice to try a curriculum was and is rene's (right
now tala, our 4 yo, just likes to do whatever our 10 yo does so she
follows his choices at the moment:) and no rigid rule, no matter the
source, will convince me not to honor his way of learning.
i am simply a mother looking for a way for facilitate my child's
learning process in the manner he wishes if that pursuit offends you or
somehow distracts or detracts from this list feel free to unsub me.
my apologize for any offense,
susan
a life long unschooler
p.s if you would to read more about our educational philosophy we have
a bit on line at:
http://homepage.mac.com/thad_martin/learn/ed2philosophy.html
Robyn Coburn
september). he is completely self motivated (i didn't even "potty
train" him:). it seems the desire began because he's been wanting to
learn physics. he understand some advanced concepts like sting theory
but realized he didn't understand the math and when he looks at
calculus he wants to learn it but he knows he doesn't have the
foundation math down. he experienced the similar thing with english.
he reads very well and now is interested in writing so wants to learn
more about grammar and is now starting to teach himself to print and
write and read cursive. >>>>
Why don't you get him a selection of books and material about physics, math,
grammar and a cursive, or maybe better yet calligraphy, workbook and some
cool feeling pens?
There are so many high quality materials out there, starting with a
subscription to Scientific American www.sciam.com which regularly includes
great book reviews. I think the idea of limiting him to the dumbed down,
often error full, school textbook recommendations that come with packaged
curriculums might be part of what people are concerned about. One of the
problems of science education from textbooks is the static nature of them,
caused in part by the ponderous process for revision, let alone switching
publications. All realms of science are full of vibrant debate and delicious
uncertainty that is only captured by sources more ephemeral and contemporary
than a textbook.
This sounds like a situation recalling Kelly Lovejoy's "Stages of
Unschooling" article. Available to read here:
http://www.unschooling.info/articles/article6.htm
You seem to be up at Stage 3, but the usual curriculum requests tend to come
from people in Stage 1, who are more in need of reassurance and
encouragement to question. It really is the word "curriculum" that sends up
red sparks.
I like the Gnarly Math newsletter www.gnarlymath.com which in a lovely way
always connects all kinds of science and history with the math concepts
being illustrated.
That is the key maybe. Finding "resources" (as you now say) that make
connections, rather than looking for a "curriculum", that tends to
immediately embody a paradigm of separation and disconnection, of discrete
subjects, in people's minds - possibly even including the kids using it. One
concern is that the linear "progression" and disconnection, inherent in an
externally structured curriculum, are insidious or osmotic, and should be
guarded against by essentially creating one's own learning plan from the
buffet of choices instead.
Since many people on this list might be newly struggling to understand
Unschooling, a blanket endorsement of any curriculum, or the idea of using
one, without questioning further the assumptions behind the request, could
be confusing or counter productive to their journey.
Once again we are reminded of the importance of our word choices on line. My
usual caution is that while brevity is crucial in most writing, here it is
better to err on the side of more background information. Your description
here of your son's interests, and his process for arriving at his questions,
is extremely helpful.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Nance Confer
Nance
Lars Hedbor
science. I can generally skim it in 5 minutes or so, and can read it
cover-to-cover in 20-30 minutes.
The articles are short enough, and written at a level that my 7-year-old can
understand them pretty easily.
- Lars D. H. Hedbor
Author, Small Business Projects/INTERNET
Betsy Hill
That is the key maybe. Finding "resources" (as you now say) that make
connections, rather than looking for a "curriculum", that tends to
immediately embody a paradigm of separation and disconnection, of discrete
subjects, in people's minds - possibly even including the kids using it.**
When reading Robyn's post I did notice that I do have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "curriculum". (I'll own up to that.) When I hear "curriculum" I also hear whispers of "straight-jacket" and "treadmill". That may seem strange, but I think a curriculum is more than a book, it is a book with an intended speed. One is "supposed to" complete 5 lessons a week until the end of the book, or the end of the school year, which ever comes first. "Using" a curriculum can be a little more demanding than using a book. There is also a bit of an implication that curriculum is "complete" and that might sometimes discourage people from looking at additional resources. So I don't think curriculum has the power to hypnotize parents and take away free will <g> (at least I don' think it can overpower self-aware unschoolers), but I do think that there are values embedded in curriculum that we need to examine carefully and detatch from. Unschoolers are pretty well equiped to do this, but non-unschoolers might not even consider these factors.
Betsy
Sandra Dodd
I hadn't thought about Science News for years. I just went and
subscribed. We got it, long ago, until we had two kids, and it was
swept away in the confusion. <g>
We get Smithsonian and that has led to some good read-aloud when a
good part comes along. I hate to ever throw those away (kinda like
National Geographic).
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
susan/foxfire
educated within the traditional school system - went to an
experimental school and was always encourages to discover things
myself. so for me curriculum is simply a cohesive set of books and
other materials that cover a range of topics. i realize there is a
lot of indoctrination in the world (being of native american decent
and not being raised religious - particularly christian -
indoctrination is very much in my awareness) and the education system
has a great hand in it but i do my best to raise my children to know
and love who they are, think for themselves and question authority
while allowing others to do the same.
so for those new to unschooling i would not in anyway reccommend you
choosing to use a curriculum even if your child asks because both
parents and children need to "disorient" from the inculturation and
this takes not only time but very different experiences - ones you
can not find within a pre-packaged curriculum. if you do not allow
'deschooling' to happen fully there will not be the necessary
distance to not get sucked backed into that way of thinking, and it
is my guess that you will never experience what unschooling really is.
i have asked rene many times if he really wants a curriculum, showed
him the sample schedules - of course telling him he did not have to
stick to it:) but he is really excited about the idea and chose k12
because he had fun with the sample lessons and liked the core
subjects as well as the books and topics covered. k12 independence
does allow you to progress at your own pace and i think it's flexible
enough that if he wanted he could even do only one topic at a time.
neither my children nor i are good at "respecting the experts" but we
do respect individuals and recognize there is a lot to learn and lots
of resources (including pre-packaged curriculums:) diversity is key
for us so we will continue doing what we do to keep a good balance
and will always allow the kids to choose and change their minds. and
betsy as you pointed out there are dangers to using a curriculum,
even for those who are well experienced in alternative ways of
thinking and relating. the biggies being, as you said, not looking
beyond or questioning the curriculum, and i would add the pressure
due to the money spent.
we are planning to supplement for example rene wants to add latin &
greek and cartography while i want to add some socratic elements like
the touchstones discussion project books (touchstones.org) and some
philosophy books for children spearheaded by matthew lipman https://
cehs.montclair.edu/store/customer/home.php but this will be read
aloud & discuss material but only if they want to:)
plus i've found these links that look interesting but i haven't had
the time to really look through them:
http://www.handspeak.com/
- my hd is deaf so asl is important for them to be fluent in
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~feegi/carto.html
- for cartography
http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/
we're still looking for non religious latin & greek but thinking the
books at fun-books.com might satisfy him though it is regarding latin
& greek as the roots of english and not the languages themselves -
i'm not sure exactly why he wants to learn these languages, so i'm
not sure if he wants to learn the whole language or just wants to
understand english better - still exploring this:)
the idea of incorporating a curriculum into our lives is new for us
so i'm not going to "defend it" nor do i feel welcome to explore this
on this list. rene wants to move in this direction and i'm happy to
go along for the ride. i'm open to all that's out there because
learning is good and lots of fun and in my mind a curriculum is what
you make it. i'll let you know if we're being naive:)
thanks for your words, opinions and advise best wishes to all,
susan
Sandra Dodd
If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public examination, don't post it to the list.-
and
#5
Before you hit "send," consider whether your post will contribute positively to the unschooling discussion or help people understand unschooling better.
Seriously. If a curriculum search is important to you, find a good place to look for one. This is not that place.
Sandra
susan/foxfire
LJ Stewart
Sandra Dodd
time to doubt. but when one doubts the words of another without
asking more questions movement ceases and communication and learning
Learning happens inside an individual. It doesn't happen outside,
between people. It doesn't have to be agreed upon.
We can only go by what people write on this list, and what is written
WILL be discussed in the light of what makes unschooling work well.
That's the purpose of the list.
-=thinking you know better than another - be they 3 or 60 - how they
should learn is the antithesis of unschooling.-=-
It's not about how people SHOULD learn; it's about how unschooling
works. It's about how people DO learn.
-=-unschooling is warm, welcoming, loving, curious, open-minded,
mysterious and always in flux. -=-
It's not mysterious to me. It's simple and clear. Life is often in
fluid movement, but the way learning works doesn't fluctuate.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
but looking to a
unschooling list is the only place i would go to look for advise in
resolving this seemly contradictory request.
i understand that most
people move from a more structured approach to a less structured one
but in our case it is the reverse.
fxfireob
Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> Learning happens inside an individual. It doesn't happen outside,
> between people. It doesn't have to be agreed upon.
>
relating and relationships are very important because experiencing the
world around us is how we learn connection, coherence and harmony -
these can not happen without others or outside of a context. it is via
these externals that we can have inner peace in all that we do.
learning is not an either or situation it's full rich and complex yet
wonderfully easy and simple - one of those great paradoxes.
> We can only go by what people write on this list, and what is written
> WILL be discussed in the light of what makes unschooling work well.
> That's the purpose of the list.
yes the name of the list says it all:)
unschooling works because it encompasses everything - it took down
walls but not to put them up somewhere else. it shifted from
education/learning as something being done to people - children in
particular - to a natural way of life like breathing or heart beating.
what makes it work is that it is open minded and relaxed and does not
try to force conformity in any way. what makes it works is that it is
not only engaging but compassionate, curious and desiring of
understanding. unschooling is about allowing everything to teach us
something and does not try to impose itself on anyone but instead it
creates a support for self discovery and growth (which includes making
mistakes - one of the huge difference between unschooling and school
learning). it's like breathing it happens best when we are relaxed and
when we don't pay attention to it. it happens best when we allow
life/learning to reveal itself, that's where the trust comes in.
> It's not about how people SHOULD learn; it's about how unschooling
> works. It's about how people DO learn.
and 'how people do learn' is unique to each and no external source
should ever stand in the way of a child/persons unique learning style/
preference for any reason short of personal safety or the safety of
others. creating an environment that is rich and expansive is a
parent's role not reducing and promoting prejudice. so i can't see how
an unschooler could close the door to any way of learning as long and
the individual truly desires it, feels excited and engaged and feels
free and not coerced. the child inner voice is what is most important,
their discovery process honored and protected not molded by their
parents emotional response to a particular choice/desire (though these
responses imo need to be shared with the child but not in a way that
promotes guilt or any other coercive emotion but in a way that opens up
a dialog and strengthens the parent child relationship - check out
robin grille's book entitled "parenting for a peaceful world" i believe
he talks about emotional coercion under the socializing mode of
parenting - it a good read - intense but imo worth it)
>
> -=-unschooling is warm, welcoming, loving, curious, open-minded,
> mysterious and always in flux. -=-
>
> It's not mysterious to me. It's simple and clear. Life is often in
> fluid movement, but the way learning works doesn't fluctuate.
>
> Sandra
i don't know that learning doesn't fluctuate or isn't fluid, that idea
is very different from my experience of learning. the way i see it - a
huge part of life is a mystery and with every new moment brings some
piece of the unknown into our consciousness and so it is with
unschooling. we can never really know what our children will say, do,
want to explore/play with ... . and this is the amazing thing about
unschooling, it allows every moment to be a bit of a surprise and if we
embrace the uncertainty (by letting go of control & prejudice) and live
in these moments instead of holding firm to our pre-set belief
structure (our own personal 'knowingness') life unfolds in ways we
never imagined. and when we do this with our children we are
unschooling in it's 'purest' form. by following their lead, we let go
of our past and begin to see the world from our innocence and not as
jaded adults.
my best,
susan
fxfireob
Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> On Jun 1, 2006, at 1:59 PM, fxfireob wrote:
>
> > but looking to a
> > unschooling list is the only place i would go to look for advise in
> > resolving this seemly contradictory request.
>
> Rather than asking for a curriculum on an unschooling list -- for
> those who may end up in a similar situation -- give us the problem
> rather than the solution.
the "problem" was he wanted to use a curriculum.
> Asking what other unschoolers would do for
> a 10 yo interested in physics (and some background to know at what
> depth he's interested) might elicit some suggestions on how their
> kids explored an interest like that. (Bill Nye, The Way Things Work,
> Standard Deviants (they have DVDs of lots of subjects) ...)
we actually have all those books and dvd's the standard deviants is a
great resource but he felt he just wasn't getting it with the math and
wanted more.
the situation isn't just one topic he wants art, math, music, science,
language arts, latin, greek, cartography, history ... i think that's
the whole list:) we have books covering all these topics and written
for different ages and have found online resources for some, he's read
many of them and checked out some website but he has decided he wants a
schedule, he wants to have the experience of working within a
structure.
>
> A better resource for more formal study would be eclectics and
> relaxed homeschoolers. While the philosophies of unschooling and
> relaxed/eclectic don't overlap, the people reading on boards and
> lists do. Unlike most school at homers, relaxed and eclectics are
> concerned that their kids are enjoying what they're doing (within the
> confines of their fears about what's necessary.)
yes i'm familiar with this approach but this choice is not fear based
it is child driven.
>
> > i understand that most
> > people move from a more structured approach to a less structured one
> > but in our case it is the reverse.
>
> Unschoolers move from *parent imposed* structure to helping the child
> explore whatever interests them in whatever way the child is drawn
> to. (Assuming the child is naturally driven and isn't responding to
> outside messages about how he "should" learn.) Kathryn Baptista's son
> took a class at Harvard Extension School at 14 or 15. Pam
> Sorooshian's 3 daughters have taken many classes at the community
> college. My daughter Kathryn at 13&14 has taken the college math
> classes her father teaches because she thinks they're fun.
> Unschooling doesn't mean no structure or no formal learning. It means
> kids are doing what *they* find fun or meaningful, rather than what
> their parents think would be good for them to do.
>
> Joyce
from your examples it sounds like rene's request isn't any different,
he's just not narrowing his focus to one or 2 topics and he's asking to
work from home rather than go to a classroom. it's seems at this
moment of my son's life he feels using a curriculum and supplementing
it with a few other courses will be 'fun and meaningful' for him. he
has repeatedly expressed a desire to play with all these topics at the
same time and he felt using a curriculum would best help him to achieve
that goal. he is the driving force in not only looking for but choosing
the program he wanted. i have suggested he try one course and he says
no he wants a full 'load', i suggested other options so he had a good
picture of what was available and he stuck to his choice and that's
enough for me - he asked, we discussed, he expressed himself and so we
are moving ahead.
he is so thrilled by the idea that when i posted the question here i
had no idea that there would be any negative responses at all - i was
taken back by it (as was he - he's read most the email responses both
mine and others) it never occurred to me i would be told i was not
unschooling, or that there would be any negative response, but i am
prone to naiveté:)
anyway i did talked to rene about latin & greek and he wants to learn
the languages and not just what part they play in the english language.
so if anyone knows a way for him to learn these languages that would be
great.
susan
marg...@gmail.com
conference to look at the curriculum dispays and perhaps listen to some
talks. I'm in Washington and saw something about a conference in my
state that is, I think, coming up soon. It didn't appeal to me... but
your son might enjoy seeing and hearing about different curriculum
options that he could choose from.
Robyn Coburn
As this discussion has gone on, it seems clearer and clearer that you *had*
found a curriculum (K12 whatever that is) that Rene was interested in. It
has become very clear that your son is interested in a personal experiment
with structured learning and external direction.
It was starting to sound to me, and I could be wrong, that the "problem" was
that you wanted some kind of approval for either that particular program or
the idea of bringing it into your house.
We, as a group, just aren't the right people to give you information on the
relative merits, or any other kind of comparisons, of various curricula. And
this list isn't the right place for that even if some folks with past
experience may be able to offer some nuggets off list.
<<<< anyway i did talked to rene about latin & greek and he wants to learn
the languages and not just what part they play in the english language.
so if anyone knows a way for him to learn these languages that would be
great. >>>>
It occurs to me that these were studied extensively in schools in the past
for their own sake. What about looking for some old text books from before
WWII for example? I have a Latin/English dictionary that is ancient that I
found in a used book store.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
walls but not to put them up somewhere else. it shifted from
snip.....
what makes it works is that it is
not only engaging but compassionate, curious and desiring of
snip....
it creates a support for self discovery and growth
Unschooling is not an entity.
We the parents "took down walls".
We support our children's self discovery and growth.
Unschooling works because we make the choice to allow it to, to embrace,
actively, the ideas.
Betsy Hill
yes i'm familiar with this approach but this choice is not fear based
it is child driven.**
Is it for sure *intrinsic* to this child, or does he know schooled kids (or adults) that he admires and might be trying to emulate?
Betsy
Elissa Jill Cleaveland
> rather than the solution.
the "problem" was he wanted to use a curriculum.
**********
I would say that was his solution to a problem.
WHY does he want a curriculum? What is his goal in using a curriculum? Is he
looking for a diploma? Does he want to explore some topics that seem very
foreign and thinks that a classical curriculum in a box will provide that?
Is he feeling overwhelmed with the many choices he has in his life and would
like to go on discovery "autopilot"? What does he think a curriculum in a
box will provide that collecting the same information on his own will not?
You talked about schedules and"the experience of working within a structure"
I would think that most people use a schedule and structure when there is a
particular goal in mind. When we built our house, we had a construction
timetable, a book of what to do and how to do it, and also all the tools to
do it with. But we always had an end goal of a built home, so the structure
and timetable were important. Our goal was accomplished. Now we are still
working on our home but we have no bank to answer to, no inspections, no
real timetable to add the extras so we do it as we see fit. We may build a
book case or do some Landscaping and while we are still working we no longer
have to reach a goal, so we no longer worry about time, or banks or a
structured plan to finish.
So my question for both of you is What is the goal and why is self imposed
structure and scheduling not enough. Why do I need someone to tell me when
and how to do it?
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
fxfireob
Robyn Coburn wrote:
> <<< the "problem" was he wanted to use a curriculum. >>>
>
> As this discussion has gone on, it seems clearer and clearer that you *had*
> found a curriculum (K12 whatever that is) that Rene was interested in.
i had found it around the same day i found this group - i had spent a
number of days looking at options.
> It has become very clear that your son is interested in a personal experiment
> with structured learning and external direction.
sure, i guess that's right. the more i talk to him the better i'm
understanding what he is looking for. if seems he wants to learn
'everything' but is overwhelmed with just how much is out there to
learn. one of the big sources of overwhelms seems to be how to
'schedule'/manage his time - both his dad and i are visual artist and
he's leans more toward the sciences and writing - so he's thinking that
a curriculum will help by giving him a sort of ready made structure
(something his dad and i are not so good at:) to sample so he can
develop that skill himself. honestly i would be surprised if he wanted
to do it more than one yr but that's his choice not mine, i'm just
trying to facilitate.
>
> It was starting to sound to me, and I could be wrong, that the "problem" was
> that you wanted some kind of approval for either that particular program or
> the idea of bringing it into your house.
no i wanted to know what's available, i have no knowledge of curriculum
had been running searches when i came across this discussion list. i
thought i would find people who have had some knowledge or experience
with available programs (didn't know curriculum was a 'dirty word' and
for that i am sorry i had no mal-intent) and i thought someone
would/could share with us or point us in a direction where we might
find some help. since we never had a need for a curriculum i wasn't
sure what was out there, and since we unschool i was trying to find
something which was not too rigid and would not 'take' his choice from
him - didn't want it to an overwhelming amount of structure rather
something with some guidelines and not strict time contraints ... that
sort of thing.
i am trying to give him what he wants while maintain the integrity of
our unschool foundation.
>
> We, as a group, just aren't the right people to give you information on the
> relative merits, or any other kind of comparisons, of various curricula. And
> this list isn't the right place for that even if some folks with past
> experience may be able to offer some nuggets off list.
just here to discuss options since we unschool i thought is was a good
place to discuss this, and from another post it seems other do utilize
more 'traditional'/classroom ed. rene does not want to be part of a
class - doesn't want that much structure - he just wants some.
>
> <<<< anyway i did talked to rene about latin & greek and he wants to learn
> the languages and not just what part they play in the english language.
> so if anyone knows a way for him to learn these languages that would be
> great. >>>>
>
> It occurs to me that these were studied extensively in schools in the past
> for their own sake. What about looking for some old text books from before
> WWII for example? I have a Latin/English dictionary that is ancient that I
> found in a used book store.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
thanks, hoping to find non religious content - still not sure why he
wants to learn these languages (no one i know is:), but he does.
susan
fxfireob
we are pretty much surrounded by unschooler - all his/our friends are
long-time unschools (only one had their child in school then 'schooled
at home' and after 2 yrs came fully to unschooling). most of our
extended family is very accepting of our educational choices, plus they
all live about 2000 mile from us so have little direct contact.
but i did i put your question to him and he thought a moment and said:
"no, it's all my idea"
susan
fxfireob
Elissa Jill Cleaveland wrote:
> give us the problem
> > rather than the solution.
>
> the "problem" was he wanted to use a curriculum.
> **********
> I would say that was his solution to a problem.
yes
> WHY does he want a curriculum?
he says for structure
> What is his goal in using a curriculum?
he says he just wants to learn
> Is he looking for a diploma?
no but he does want to go to college.
> Does he want to explore some topics that seem very
> foreign and thinks that a classical curriculum in a box will provide that?
he says "yes - i just want to learn, period"
> Is he feeling overwhelmed with the many choices he has in his life and would
> like to go on discovery "autopilot"?
he says he's not overwhelmed by the choices nor does he want to go on
"autopilot" but he is finding structuring his own time challenging so
would like to experience a curriculum to see how they do it.
> What does he think a curriculum in a
> box will provide that collecting the same information on his own will not?
again he says structure
> You talked about schedules and"the experience of working within a structure"
> I would think that most people use a schedule and structure when there is a
> particular goal in mind. When we built our house, we had a construction
> timetable, a book of what to do and how to do it, and also all the tools to
> do it with. But we always had an end goal of a built home, so the structure
> and timetable were important. Our goal was accomplished. Now we are still
> working on our home but we have no bank to answer to, no inspections, no
> real timetable to add the extras so we do it as we see fit. We may build a
> book case or do some Landscaping and while we are still working we no longer
> have to reach a goal, so we no longer worry about time, or banks or a
> structured plan to finish.
> So my question for both of you is What is the goal and why is self imposed
> structure and scheduling not enough. Why do I need someone to tell me when
> and how to do it?
> Elissa Jill
> A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
> "A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
rene says: "structure doesn't seem to come natural to me... the reason
i want a curriculum, besides it giving me structure, is because i want
to go to college... i think a curriculum will give me more
confidence... i just wanting to learn"
susan
fxfireob
marg...@gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe he would enjoy going to a more mainstream homeschooling
> conference to look at the curriculum dispays and perhaps listen to some
> talks.
thanks but he wants to be able to learn to manage his time while
learning and not be forced to conform to the strict structure that
"school-at-home" offers. the best way i can explain it, or as i
understand his request, is he's more interested in experiencing
structure, he doesn't want to be treated with disrespect by having his
free will usurped.
since he has always been unschooled he has a very strong sense of self
and inner authority. he doesn't want to be bored, given busy work, or
held to "grade level". instead he wants the freedom to choose he
courses and learn the material that interests him, but he wants to do
this within a larger structure of a curriculum so he can learn that
too:)
the difference being an imposed or forced structure as opposed to an
implied structure, guidelines or suggestions he can try out. then he
can take this experience and come up with something that works for him.
we're looking for something that is flexible but can also show him a
way of managing or structuring his time.
susan
Sandra Dodd
quite repetitive. Rather than responding to each post separately,
please try to make a response that will cover several at once.
Also, MOST questions asked on the list are rhetorical questions,
hypothetical questions, asked to help people figure out what they
want to do. If the answers won't help people understand
unschooling, they might not be worth sending out to this whole list.
-=-What is his goal in using a curriculum?-=-
>
he says he just wants to learn
> -=-Is he looking for a diploma?-=-
>
no but he does want to go to college.
I think if a parent encourages a child to believe he needs a
curriculum to learn, or that a curriculum will help him get to
college (especially when the child is very young and has never been
to school), the parent is sabotaging any possibility of unschooling
really working.
-=-he is finding structuring his own time challenging so
would like to experience a curriculum to see how they do it.-=-
Programmed learning might structure learning, but a curriculum
doesn't do it; a teacher does.
Sometimes when a kid says he wants to school, it turns out that he
wants a lunch box, a bus ride, and to have a teacher. Sometimes an
art class or a photography workshop will do it (with the packed-at-
home lunch and a bus ride at some point).
If someone says he wants a schedule and some structure, parents could
help him develop that. A calendar, assignment book, desk area,
list of readings, etc., might satisfy the whole urge.
-=-"structure doesn't seem to come natural to me... the reason
i want a curriculum, besides it giving me structure, is because i want
to go to college... -=-
What doesn't come natural to people isn't a thing to encourage them
to pursue. Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence theory really
doesn't lend itself to saying "If your child lacks this natural
intelligence, drop all else and work on the one he does not have
naturally."
-=-i would be surprised if he wanted
to do it more than one yr but that's his choice not mine, i'm just
trying to facilitate.-=-
He might not last a week, so maybe don't spend much money on it.
There are many lists where curriculum use, unit studies and eclectic
homeschooling can be discussed. About the best this list can do is
remind people that a curriculum is a giant step AWAY from
unschooling, and that belief that a curriculum is helpful to learning
or college success is a big closed door between them and even seeing
unschooling, really.
Sandra
Betsy Hill
i was trying to find
something which was not too rigid and would not 'take' his choice from
him - didn't want it to an overwhelming amount of structure rather
something with some guidelines and not strict time contraints ... that
sort of thing.**
I think I get the idea of what he wants, but I have a hard time wrapping my brain about how it's going to work.
Wanting to look at the content in the book is different from wanting to be systematically made to sit down with the book so that the contents of the book are engraved into one's brain. (Which sounds a bit like what has been implied.) Skipping the dull parts, speeding up and slowing down all make sense to me as an unschooler. But, in this case I'm concerned that if "structure" is completely floppy and malleable, then it ceases to have any solidity at all. If he is completely empowered to do it, or not do it and he ends up mostly not doing it, will he be satisfied?
**
i am trying to give him what he wants while maintain the integrity of
our unschool foundation.**
I know it may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but it really seems like what he wants is to not unschool.
**
thanks but he wants to be able to learn to manage his time while
learning and not be forced to conform to the strict structure that
"school-at-home" offers.**
Stephen R. Covey's book, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People describes some interesting time management principles. Julie Morgenstern has written a book (and columns in O magazine) about organizing stuff. She has also written a book about organizing time, but it is aimed at working adults, I think, but it still might be worth a look. She's pretty savvy. Other than these type of books, I don't think curriculum teaches someone to be organized. That may have to be a task that the whole family works on -- child willing.
Do you and your son have a good understanding of his preferred learning style(s)? That's really fundamental in picking the most rewarding resources to use. If I wanted to learn something like Ancient Greek (which isn't spoken?), I think I'd prefer a computer program over a book. That would somehow feel livelier and more engaging. For Latin I'd probably (myself) prefer a class or a club, along with the book I've already got of funny Latin phrases. (Some curricula are so serious that humor is completely omitted. A mistake, in my book.)
Betsy
DJ Houston
had a lot of fun with those. They have interesting stuff in them, and
its kind of odd sometimes seeing what that person thinks every
whatevereth grader should know. There's all kinds of cool stuff in the
books, and if you don't like one, you can look at another one. They are
great spin off books. I really liked the "what every 4th grader" should
know book. I don't know any 4th grader that knows all that stuff. I'm
53 and I don't know it. It was kind of like experiencing a trivia game
in book form, checking out what I knew and what I didn't know in it.
Elissa Jill Cleaveland
I really feel that there is far more going on in Rene's head than might be
being addressed
For clarity, how old is he again?
There are some points I want to touch upon.
>>>WHY does he want a curriculum?
>>>>he says for structure
*****What does "structure"mean?
>>>> What is his goal in using a curriculum?
>>>> he says he just wants to learn
*************this sends up unschooling flags (incidentaly, these are rainbow
striped with an anarchy symbol, a buddha, an all knowing eye and a google
symbol)
Does he feel as if he is not learning? Why would a child who has freely
learned all his life suddenly want to go towards a very unnatural way of
learning? Is there an outside influence of relatives or schooled friends
that are influencing him?
>>>> Is he looking for a diploma?
>>>>no but he does want to go to college.
*********My children plan on college, there are loads of ways to go to
college without using a curriculum in a box.
> Does he want to explore some topics that seem very
> foreign and thinks that a classical curriculum in a box will provide that?
>>>he says "yes - i just want to learn, period"
**********It sounds to me that he may not understand much about natural
learning and thinks that he is currently not learning. Does he know any
other unschooled teens? Has he talked with them at all? The unschooling.info
boards has a great kid's board.
> Is he feeling overwhelmed with the many choices he has in his life and
> would
> like to go on discovery "autopilot"?
>>>>he says he's not overwhelmed by the choices nor does he want to go on
>>>>"autopilot" but he is finding structuring his own time challenging so
>>>>would like to experience a curriculum to see how they do it.
***********Have you thought about borrowing some syllibi (sp?) to read the
outlines? I know that some curriculum sites have samples online that he
could look at. It's much cheaper to explore that way first then to spend
loads of bucks on a curriculum he may not even wind up using.
> What does he think a curriculum in a
> box will provide that collecting the same information on his own will not?
>>>>again he says structure
**********What does "structure"mean to him?
>
>>>>rene says: "structure doesn't seem to come natural to me... the reason
>>>>i want a curriculum, besides it giving me structure, is because i want
>>>>to go to college... i think a curriculum will give me more
>>>>confidence... i just wanting to learn"
*********IMNSHO, I would deeply explore the WHYs. Why does he think that a
curriculum will give him more confidence. Why is he feeling insecure about
what he is doing now? What does he think that a curriculum will provide that
an interesting class or his own interest in a subject will not?
To me, a curriculum is the surest way to NOT learn.
"i just wanting to learn" He is learning, every day, every moment that his
eyes are open and the world is there, right in front of him, glittery and
swirly and REAL.
Rubypri...@aol.com
thanks, hoping to find non religious content - still not sure why he
wants to learn these languages (no one i know is:), but he does.
susan
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Books that Latin Students will Actually Enjoy
A list on Amazon, with links to lots of Asterix comics in Latin, but also translations of things like Winnie the Pooh, Cat in the Hat, Ferdinand...
fxfireob
Sandra Dodd wrote:
> I let several posts through from the same person, though they're
> quite repetitive. Rather than responding to each post separately,
> please try to make a response that will cover several at once.
i'm sorry i seem to be very out of synch or maybe you just don't like
me? i thought this was a list where we were invited to discuss
unschooling - didn't know i need to limit my expression, conform to
preconception or that i should ignore individual posts.
>
> Also, MOST questions asked on the list are rhetorical questions,
> hypothetical questions, asked to help people figure out what they
> want to do. If the answers won't help people understand
> unschooling, they might not be worth sending out to this whole list.
i'm not sure i know where this line is. how do i know what is helpful
or not helpful to another? personally i love other peoples stories and
situation - i learn a lot for others perspectives.
>
> -=-What is his goal in using a curriculum?-=-
> >
> he says he just wants to learn
>
> > -=-Is he looking for a diploma?-=-
> >
>
> no but he does want to go to college.
>
>
> I think if a parent encourages a child to believe he needs a
> curriculum to learn, or that a curriculum will help him get to
> college (especially when the child is very young and has never been
> to school), the parent is sabotaging any possibility of unschooling
> really working.
i have repeatedly told him there was no need for him to have any
structured education to be successful, that he didn't need college nor
did he need hs to get into college if that's what he wanted. and i told
him that right now he might want that but he could always change his
mind. i'm sorry you can't seem to believe he is telling the truth when
he says it's his idea.
>
> -=-he is finding structuring his own time challenging so
> would like to experience a curriculum to see how they do it.-=-
>
> Programmed learning might structure learning, but a curriculum
> doesn't do it; a teacher does.
>
> Sometimes when a kid says he wants to school, it turns out that he
> wants a lunch box, a bus ride, and to have a teacher. Sometimes an
> art class or a photography workshop will do it (with the packed-at-
> home lunch and a bus ride at some point).
>
> If someone says he wants a schedule and some structure, parents could
> help him develop that. A calendar, assignment book, desk area,
> list of readings, etc., might satisfy the whole urge.
we spent the last year doing that and he still wants what he wants.
>
> -=-"structure doesn't seem to come natural to me... the reason
> i want a curriculum, besides it giving me structure, is because i want
> to go to college... -=-
>
> What doesn't come natural to people isn't a thing to encourage them
> to pursue. Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence theory really
> doesn't lend itself to saying "If your child lacks this natural
> intelligence, drop all else and work on the one he does not have
> naturally."
again he is asking, these are his words, his desire.
>
> -=-i would be surprised if he wanted
> to do it more than one yr but that's his choice not mine, i'm just
> trying to facilitate.-=-
>
> He might not last a week, so maybe don't spend much money on it.
i've thought of that as liuck would have it the program he chose has a
30 day return policy
>
> There are many lists where curriculum use, unit studies and eclectic
> homeschooling can be discussed. About the best this list can do is
> remind people that a curriculum is a giant step AWAY from
> unschooling, and that belief that a curriculum is helpful to learning
> or college success is a big closed door between them and even seeing
> unschooling, really.
>
> Sandra
this is really not as big of a deal as it seems to have become. it's
just a request by a nearly 11yr boy to discovery something for himself
amd a mother asking for some reconmendation to help him have the best
possible experience he can give the confines of the request.
it seems you can't comprehend his process and wish to judge it instead
of asking him, respecting his way, his journey, but would rather not
consider the possiblity he might be doing exactly what he needs to do
but instead find a reason to imply there is a problem. i don't see my
son as having a problem and i will not be sharing this email with him
because he's happy with where he is and with the choices he's making
and if it is a mistake it is his to make and his to discover not for me
to save him from it.
i'm am sorry you are so bother by my posts and i will leave. it was
never my intent to disrupt or triggers other so they feel
uncomfortable. and i am also sorry i do not fit your notion of an
unschool but that doesn't mean we are not. since this email makes it
painfully clear that i am not welcome (as did your first and every
other email) out of respect i will not post anymore. since i will not
be check back if anyone wishes contact me please feel free to email me
private. i'm always open to discussion particularly unschooling in all
it's variation.
in closing i want to whole heartedly thank people for taking the time
to discuss this topic and appreciate the opinions and advise. i will
take what is helpful and leave the rest - i like editing myself so
appreciate everyone candor:)
my best always,
susan
foxfire observatory
fxfi...@mac.com
austin, tx
fxfireob
Betsy Hill wrote:
>
> I know it may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but it really seems like what he wants is to not unschool.
rene didn't appreciate this conclusion and completely disagrees. i
probably should not have shared this with him - my mistake - even
though he felt good about answering the questions in other posts i
think this put an end for him wanting to discuss his learning with this
group. he sees himself as an unschooler and your conclusion will not
sway him from that. it's interesting that taking classes is acceptable
and what he wants isn't. truth - these are judgement and constraints
are individually imposed and not true to unschool - unschooling
(dispite the un-) is not against it is for. i think rene is great and
that his exploring is great and that he's happily trying out new
experiences is great and that he is open to everything is great and a
testiment to unschooling.
like ken wilbur says "no one's stupid enough to be 100% wrong" . and
that's how we live our life we look for the useful part is everything
we encounter.
i appreciate the advise you have shared.
thanks,
susan
Nance Confer
friends --
>
> since he has always been unschooled he has a very strong sense of self
> and inner authority.
It just caught my eye and rang a bell -- talk about mixing metaphors! :)
One of the great benefits of unschooling!
Nance
Sandra Dodd
unschooling - didn't know i need to limit my expression, conform to
preconception or that i should ignore individual posts.
Read the posting guidelines. I'm pretty sure the link has been
provided for you twice.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
-=-didn't know i need to limit my expression, conform to
preconception or that i should ignore individual posts.-=-
No one is asking you to ignore individual posts. Expression needs to
be limited to the posting guidelines, which you will be reading
before you post again, I'm sure.
-=-this is really not as big of a deal as it seems to have become. it's
just a request by a nearly 11yr boy to discovery something for himself
amd a mother asking for some reconmendation to help him have the best
possible experience he can give the confines of the request.-=-
It's a mother asking repeatedly despite people saying this isn't a
curriculum-discussion list.
-=-out of respect i will not post anymore-=-
I notice there's another post right after this one.
-=- i
think this put an end for him wanting to discuss his learning with this
group. -=-
He never did discuss his learning with this group.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
Unschooling.
Not curriculum.
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
someone else is continuing to engage offlist, they can feel free to
forward it or in case someone else finds anything in it useful, but
if you've lost interest - don't read it - it is long and not likely
to be of use to most people on the list.
-pam
On Jun 2, 2006, at 5:46 PM, fxfireob wrote:
>
>
> Sandra Dodd wrote:
>> I let several posts through from the same person, though they're
>> quite repetitive. Rather than responding to each post separately,
>> please try to make a response that will cover several at once.
>
> i'm sorry i seem to be very out of synch or maybe you just don't like
> me? i thought this was a list where we were invited to discuss
> unschooling - didn't know i need to limit my expression, conform to
> preconception or that i should ignore individual posts.
You seem to think this is an appropriate list to ask for
recommendations on use of full curriculum such as k12. So, yes, that
is most definitely out of synch with the purpose of this list. As a
listowner, let me state unequivocally that this list is not an
appropriate place for a rundown of the pros and cons of various full
curriculum choices. There are thousands of lists where that is
available - your sig line says you are in Austin, Texas, which has
probably the largest homeschooling group in the country with
homeschoolers of all kinds; that would be a better place for you to
ask for curriculum help.
>>
>> Also, MOST questions asked on the list are rhetorical questions,
>> hypothetical questions, asked to help people figure out what they
>> want to do. If the answers won't help people understand
>> unschooling, they might not be worth sending out to this whole list.
>
> i'm not sure i know where this line is. how do i know what is helpful
> or not helpful to another? personally i love other peoples stories and
> situation - i learn a lot for others perspectives.
Because it has become apparent that don't know where the line is,
Sandra (one of the list owners) is offering you this information:
Many times when people ask a question as part of a discussion, it is
a question they are suggesting you think about, yourself, for your
own benefit. You don't have to answer every question like that, on
the list. Yes, this is a judgment call and sometimes it might be
useful or interesting to answer such questions. But you are answering
every single one of those and it appeared that you thought you ought
to do so. You do not need to do so and it can be irritating to others
when someone does it.
>>
>> -=-What is his goal in using a curriculum?-=-
>>>
>> he says he just wants to learn
He wants to learn what someone else has determined he should learn,
in the way someone else has determined he should learn it -- that is
what a full curriculum is all about. If that is what he wants, then
go for it. It is hard sometimes, for parents who really love the idea
of unschooling, when their kids want to go to school or do school at
home. As a firm believer in the deep benefits of unschooling, I know
that I'd try to help my child figure out ways to learn what he/she
wants to learn in other ways because I truly believe that there are
some serious negatives about use of a full curriculum. But, if my
child really wanted just exactly "that" - not the learning, but the
full curriculum schooling method, then we'd give up unschooling and
do it, as long as he/she was really adamant. I'd do the same with a
child who wanted to go to school.
>>
>>> -=-Is he looking for a diploma?-=-
>>>
>>
>> no but he does want to go to college.
>>
Are you under the impression that he needs to use a curriculum to go
to college? Is HE under that impression?
>>
>> I think if a parent encourages a child to believe he needs a
>> curriculum to learn, or that a curriculum will help him get to
>> college (especially when the child is very young and has never been
>> to school), the parent is sabotaging any possibility of unschooling
>> really working.
>
> i have repeatedly told him there was no need for him to have any
> structured education to be successful, that he didn't need college nor
> did he need hs to get into college if that's what he wanted. and i
> told
> him that right now he might want that but he could always change his
> mind. i'm sorry you can't seem to believe he is telling the truth
> when
> he says it's his idea.
>
Nobody is doubting that it is his idea. Is it your belief that
because something is his "idea," that that makes it unschooling? Does
he live in a vacuum? Is he not a young child with a parent whose role
is to help him understand the deeper implications of his choices? If
he wanted to go live away from home in a boarding school, would you
just say, "It is his idea so that makes it unschooling?" On a radical
unschooling list, the kind of advice you're going to get is going to
be all about how to help him understand unschooling better because
we, here on this list, are not supporters of the use of full
curriculum programs. You don't really sound open to discussion of the
reasons why we are negative about the use of a full curriculum, but
that would be a better discussion, for this list, than to spend time
discussing the pros and cons of different full curriculum packages.
>>
>> -=-he is finding structuring his own time challenging so
>> would like to experience a curriculum to see how they do it.-=-
>>
He is having trouble feeling comfortable unschooling - being in
charge of his OWN learning - so he wants to purchase a full
curriculum and turn his learning over to someone else. That is what
using a full curriculum is.
Another alternative is to help him find his own sense of self - to
help him feel more centered within himself, less unsettled and less
needy of someone else to organize his time/learning - maybe read the
Teenage Liberation Handbook, together. Read the "Book of Learning and
Forgetting" together. In the meantime, if he is wanting a full
curriculum, maybe that's what you need to do - just don't get cranky
with us when we don't want people to start discussing all the
different pros and cons of various curriculum programs here, on this
list.
>> Programmed learning might structure learning, but a curriculum
>> doesn't do it; a teacher does.
>>
>> Sometimes when a kid says he wants to school, it turns out that he
>> wants a lunch box, a bus ride, and to have a teacher. Sometimes an
>> art class or a photography workshop will do it (with the packed-at-
>> home lunch and a bus ride at some point).
>>
>> If someone says he wants a schedule and some structure, parents could
>> help him develop that. A calendar, assignment book, desk area,
>> list of readings, etc., might satisfy the whole urge.
>
> we spent the last year doing that and he still wants what he wants.
He doesn't want to unschool, then. That's always hard for a parent
who really truly believes unschooling is best.
If I had a situation with one of my children, like this, I'd honor
their wishes (as you are planning to do), but, at the same time, I'd
be very very observant and try to figure out what it is that is
making unschooling uncomfortable for my child.
I think one thing might be that a child has mixed feelings - a desire
to know certain material, but not quite enough interest to provide
the impetus for spending time learning it. He/she feels bad about
that - feels guilty, even, or at least uncomfortable. Feels like he/
she isn't doing what he/she "should" be doing. He feels like he
doesn't "structure his time" wisely. That's an odd concept for a 10
year old, in fact. A kid's sense of time should be far more "in the
present" and their life usually can flow from one "present moment" to
another. That's a GOOD thing - it is, in fact, one of the amazing
things about unschooling, that we can let that happen for our kids,
not structure it out of them at an early age. When people get older,
that sense of timelessness, being fully present in the moment, is
much harder to get to, and our unschooled kids are so much more able
to do it! It is that ability to "flow" which supports creativity in
our lives and leads to everything from artistic expression to
scientific discoveries. Following someone else's structured plan for
a child's learning is counterproductive.
>
>>
>> -=-"structure doesn't seem to come natural to me... the reason
>> i want a curriculum, besides it giving me structure, is because i
>> want
>> to go to college... -=-
>>
>> What doesn't come natural to people isn't a thing to encourage them
>> to pursue. Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence theory really
>> doesn't lend itself to saying "If your child lacks this natural
>> intelligence, drop all else and work on the one he does not have
>> naturally."
>
> again he is asking, these are his words, his desire.
Structure generally does NOT come naturally to a young child, if by
"structure," you mean organized, ongoing, scheduled times to learn
certain subjects. A young child's learning doesn't need to be
structured in that way - it can be far more spontaneous. Somehow this
child has gotten the idea that there are academic subjects that he
should be studying and that he's not organizing his time well to
learn them. That's really too bad, because the "test" of whether
something is worthwhile for him to be learning is whether he is
loving to learn it so much that it entices him, attracts him, he
hardly knows he IS learning because, from his perspective, he's just
having a good time. For example, my daughter loves musical theater
and she has read dozens of books about the history of musical theater
and biographies of lyricists and directors. She spends her money on
going to shows. She writes lengthy, detailed reviews of the shows she
sees. She engages in in-depth discussions about musical theater with
people in real life and online. She is rapidly becoming
extraordinarily well educated in the field, but not once, not one
single time, has she "scheduled her time" to learn what she wants to
learn. She just learned, she just did what she wanted to do at the
time. She never planned out that each day she would do a lesson. She
just read and talked and wrote when she felt like reading and talking
and writing.
Sometimes, when they are older and have a specific goal, there might
be a good reason to make themselves study something that they aren't
just "naturally" learning because of their enjoyment of it. When my
oldest daughter wanted to major in a certain field, in college, then
she did, at that time, have to take some coursework in fields that
didn't hold much natural interest for her. But that can wait until
the goal is clear - more like 19, rather than 10 years old.
>
>>
>> -=-i would be surprised if he wanted
>> to do it more than one yr but that's his choice not mine, i'm just
>> trying to facilitate.-=-
>>
>> He might not last a week, so maybe don't spend much money on it.
>
> i've thought of that as liuck would have it the program he chose has a
> 30 day return policy
>>
>> There are many lists where curriculum use, unit studies and eclectic
>> homeschooling can be discussed. About the best this list can do is
>> remind people that a curriculum is a giant step AWAY from
>> unschooling, and that belief that a curriculum is helpful to learning
>> or college success is a big closed door between them and even seeing
>> unschooling, really.
>>
>> Sandra
>
> this is really not as big of a deal as it seems to have become.
If my radically unschooled 10 year old had wanted me to purchase her
a full curriculum, such as k12, it would be a HUGE big deal. I find
it really surprising that you don't think it is.
> it's
> just a request by a nearly 11yr boy to discovery something for himself
> amd a mother asking for some reconmendation to help him have the best
> possible experience he can give the confines of the request.
It is a kid rejecting unschooling because it doesn't seem, to him,
that he organizes his own time well enough to study all that he, for
some reason, thinks he should be studying. And his mother asking a
radical unschooling list for curriculum recommendations and seems
surprised that the list owners have a problem with that.
I really think that you might benefit greatly from some more reading,
to deepen your understanding of unschooling. I understand that you've
been "doing it," but it doesn't sound like you have much
understanding of it. Suggestions: "The Teenage Liberation Handbook,"
"The Book of Learning and Forgetting," and "The Hurried Child" and
"Miseducation" both by David Elkind. Only the first book is about
unschooling - the others are to help you understand why we so deeply
believe in unschooling as the optimal learning lifestyle.
>
> it seems you can't comprehend his process and wish to judge it instead
> of asking him, respecting his way, his journey, but would rather not
> consider the possiblity he might be doing exactly what he needs to do
> but instead find a reason to imply there is a problem.
You asked here, on a radical unschooling list and got radical
unschooling answers. Hard to believe that you didn't expect that
radical unschoolers would try to help you (and him) find ways to meet
his needs other than the purchase and use of a full curriculum for a
10 year old.
And, yes, I would most definitely feel that there was a problem if my
unschooled child was so uncomfortable with unschooling that she
wanted to give up unschooling and, instead, utilize a full curriculum.
> i don't see my
> son as having a problem and i will not be sharing this email with him
> because he's happy with where he is and with the choices he's making
> and if it is a mistake it is his to make and his to discover not
> for me
> to save him from it.
It might well be that the best thing you can do is to honor his
wishes and that he needs to figure this out - discover for himself
what using a full curriculum is like. But it also just might be that
you could help him understand that, at ten, he doesn't need to learn
things that he isn't interested enough in learning to learn them
without outside imposition of a schedule and assignments, etc. So -
to just wash your hands of responsibility - to say it is his mistake
to make and his to discover, not for you to save him from it --- that
is a very hands-off attitude, unexpected on a list like this.
>
> i'm am sorry you are so bother by my posts and i will leave. it was
> never my intent to disrupt or triggers other so they feel
> uncomfortable. and i am also sorry i do not fit your notion of an
> unschool but that doesn't mean we are not. since this email makes it
> painfully clear that i am not welcome (as did your first and every
> other email) out of respect i will not post anymore. since i will not
> be check back if anyone wishes contact me please feel free to email me
> private. i'm always open to discussion particularly unschooling in
> all
> it's variation.
Use of a full curriculum is not a variation of unschooling. It is
school-at-home.
Frank
>...snip... Books that Latin Students will Actually Enjoy...snip...
Well, once you're in your teens, IMO, you'll enjoy a number of classic
Roman writers immensely. Horace covers a lot of interesting subjects in
interesting ways; many of his phrases are still in use today, e.g.
"purple patch" (pannus purpureus) to describe florid writing. Catullus
is ironic and cynical. Martial wrote the wicked "Non amo te, Sabidi..."
which student Tom Brown used to simultaneously mollify and skewer his
dean, Dr. Fell, with his translation "I do not like thee, Dr. Fell..."
Ovid uses language in innovative ways. And for a great adventure story,
there's Virgil's Aeneid.
But I confess *my* bias by virtue of my e-mail name - PVMaro is for
Publius Vergilius Maro (Virgil).
Frank
marg...@gmail.com
(or a day) at a homeschooling conference to look at the displays is
forcing him to "school at home", showign him disrespect and usurping
his free will.
Those are the people that do curriculum and they have a lot of it that
you can see. It's just a resource. It's an easy place to go flip
through the books all at once so he can see what he likes and doesn't
like. They also have talks about various curricula that he could attend
if he felt so inclined.
He would, of course, use any curriculum that he finds as he sees
fit.... going there to look at books doesn't mean he should use them
any differently than he would if he found out about the textbooks
online.
I don't know that this is the *best* way for him to explore his options
or one that would meet his needs or yours, but it is a way to find a
curriculum (which was what you said you were trying to do) and I'm a
little puzzled about the way you dismissed it.
Betsy Hill
at ten, he doesn't need to learn
things that he isn't interested enough in learning to learn them
without outside imposition of a schedule and assignments, etc.**
I believe the retention level from this type of learning is likely to be low.
Betsy
jud...@cox.net
fxfireob wrote:
> now rene has asked to use a curriculum, he decided he wants more
> discipline and a more 'classical' education. we've been looking around,
> mostly interested in programs with an online component. he seems to be
> most interested in k12 independent (k12.com) but laurel spring and
> calvert also have online curriculum.
>
> >
> so my question we're coming at the curriculum after unschooling does
> anyone here have any reccommendations? we are secular and most
> interested in a more socratic appraoch but online testing is fine -
> like i said he seems to like taking them:)
>
In May we put away The Well Trained Mind and opted for unschooling.
Right now we are pretty much deschooling.....although my boys have
never been to school, we have always used some bits of curriculum.
We chose bits and pieces that we wanted from The Well Trained Mind
rather than using the entire program.
I enjoyed using this approach for many reasons: she lays it all out for
you down to the very last detail which makes it very easy to use with a
child of any age, she organizes all the content and lays out the
structure so well that it makes your job much easier, I like the
comprehensive approach which put things in context for us and I really
enjoyed learning about history, grammar, math, etc. for the first time
in my life, it was all making so much sense to ME!.....my kids didn't
enjoy it though, they still saw the whole thing as pointless and
disjointed....so, I let it go and decided that If they ever want to try
it again we can and if I ever find the desire and time to be led
through the study of certain periods of time, I'll refer back to that
book for advice as part of my own learning journey.
I also discovered that I really enjoyed reading the classics, but my
kids didn't, (somehow I missed those in my 16 years of
institutionalized education!) and I plan to continue reading those...
I've tried the Well Educated Mind, but tossed the written work and all
the discussion after the first couple of books.....I don't follow the
list either, but pick what I want from it..... I had no desire to start
my journey with Don Quixote!
Any how, if you want a classical approach that lays it all out for you
down to how much time you should spend on each subject, what curriculum
to use, etc......it's all in S.W. Bauer's, The Well Trained MInd.
If you have further questions, etc. you can email me off list and I can
share our experience with you.
Judy in Tempe, AZ, very new at trying unschooling....not to be
confused with Judy in Tucson who is an experienced unschooler and
living a very cool life building her Strawbale house! :-)
Kelli Traaseth
Sandra Dodd
- Adeste fidelis, laeti triumphantes
Venite, venite in Bethlehem
Natum videte, regem angelorum
Venite adoremus, venite adoremus
Venite adoremus, dominum. - Cantet nunc io, chorus angelorum
Cantet nunc aula caelestium
Gloria, gloria in excelsis Deo
Venite adoremus, venite adoremus
Venite adoremus, dominum. - Ergo qui natus, die hodierna
Jesu, tibi sit gloria
Patris aeterni, verbum caro factus
Venite adoremus, venite adoremus
Venite adoremus, dominum.
The text to the Carol O Come All Ye Faithful was originally written in Latin (Adeste Fideles) and was intended to be a hymn, it is attributed to John Wade, an Englishman. The music to O Come All Ye Faithful was composed by fellow Englishman John Reading in the early 1700s. The tune was first published in a collection known as "Cantus Diversi" in 1751. In 1841 Rev. Frederick Oakley is reputed to have worked on the familiar translation of O Come All Ye Faithful which replaced the older Latin lyrics "Adeste Fideles".
Frank
music with lyrics in Latin, I love Carl Orff's _Carmina Burana_, which
contains one of my all-time favorites _Fortuna, Imperatrix Mundi_.
Frank
Betsy Hill
authors, websites?**
A fun hour can be spent fooling around with this book by Henry Beard:
Latin for All Occasions. (Subtitled Lingua Latina Occasionibus Omnibus.)
It's a slightly warped phrase book, with a pronunciation guide in the
beginning.
On p. 37 I found in "Things to say to your dentist"
-- Num mihi dolebit hoc? (This isn't going to hurt, is it?)
and on the same page, in "Things to say to your psychiatrist"
-- Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum.
(Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe.) <g>
Betsy
Lars Hedbor
IMHO, the best currently-published textbook out there). See
http://www.ravendays.org/latin/lists/listindex.html for details.
There's also a fascinating resource out there that I just cannot lay hands
on at this instant - it's a brief introduction to the basics of Latin,
created by a female sci-fi author whose name escapes me at the moment.
She's put this thing on her Web site, and it's exceptionally accessible and
easy to follow, even without any background in linguistics.
Anyone out there know what site I'm referring to here? It's frustrating me
now...
- Lars D. H. Hedbor
Author, Small Business Projects/INTERNET
Kelli Traaseth
Robyn Coburn
<<<< The text to the Carol O Come All Ye Faithful was originally written in Latin (Adeste Fideles) and was intended to be a hymn, it is attributed to John Wade, an Englishman. The music to O Come All Ye Faithful was composed by fellow Englishman John Reading in the early 1700s. The tune was first published in a collection known as "Cantus Diversi" in 1751. In 1841 Rev. Frederick Oakley is reputed to have worked on the familiar translation of O Come All Ye Faithful which replaced the older Latin lyrics "Adeste Fideles". >>>
Should we have a latin sing-along funshop at the conference?
Robyn
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Sandra Dodd
3. |
Original Release Date: 1973 |
Sandra Dodd
Kelli Traaseth
Lars Hedbor
I *love* Enigma, though for those who worry about such things, their albums definitely get a little bit on the PG-13/R side here & there – if your kids speak French, they’re particularly racy in parts.
The Chant albums are also a very nice break from the noise and craziness that we’re so often surrounded with. (I’ve got the first two, but not the third…)
From: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kelli Traaseth
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:13
PM
To:
Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Kelli Traaseth
Sandra Dodd
Frank
know she had a website for it. Her novel _Merchanter's Luck_ is one of
my favorites, although much of her other stuff is pretty pedestrian.
Frank
Robyn Coburn
<<< If many more funshops are planned, the conference wouldn't have needed to be in New Mexico at all. I'm afraid some families will never have a chance to see Old Town, which is just a block south of the hotel. Funshops are great when the conference is where there's not another single thing to do, but this isn't one of those situations! >>>
I thought it was in New Mexico, indeed any of the locations, to share the travel burden regionally. I don’t go to the conference for the local attractions – at least not during actual conference days. I go to meet up with and interact with other Unschoolers immersively. I started contemplating how torn people might feel if we held one in Los Angeles where there is just so much cool stuff to do, not unlike if it were held in Manhattan. Better to go to places with less to tempt people (eg me) away from either the presentations or funshops.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Kelli Traaseth
Sandra Dodd
Chris Sanders
But the conferences DO fill up every waking moment (and most that would ordinarily have been sleeping moments) so maybe the middles of corn fields are good places for them. Nothing distracting. <g>Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
Chris Sanders
I am needing information about kid-friendly software that enables users
to design and create their own computer video-games. I'd prefer
something
that works on Macs because that is all that we have but if nothing
exists like that,
I'd consider buying a non-Mac PC to try to make this happen. Zoe has
all kinds of
fantastic ideas that she wants to turn into a video-game and then put
it up
on her own website (which is another task I'll have to figure out)
and she
wants to do it RIGHT NOW! I'm having a hard time keeping from
discouraging her.
She keeps asking me if she'll be able to work on it on the computer
today!
Chris
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IAUnschoolers/
http://zamunzo.blogspot.com/
Sandra Dodd
all kinds of
fantastic ideas that she wants to turn into a video-game and then put
it up
on her own website (which is another task I'll have to figure out)
and she
wants to do it RIGHT NOW! I'm having a hard time keeping from
discouraging her.
If she wanted to build an airplane she cold fly across the ocean in
wouldn't you kind of discourage her?
I don't think it's unrealistic to let a child know when something is
a VERY big deal and beyond their abilities and resources.
Marty tried a game making program, years ago, and it drove him
crazy. He got a very few little movements to go, a few characters
in, and then gave it up. But there are lots of PARTS of game
programming kids can do. They can make moving GIFs (with mom-help)
or questionnaires that go from one point to another depending on the
answer (the kind of branching logic involved in programming), or
write up character descriptions and names and costumes and weapons
(all parts of game design, but also of role playing games and of
writing novels or games or anything.
Maybe just even making lists of the things that become part of a
video game would help, and she could list what she wants her game to
be able to do.
Has she seen games like Morrowwind and Final Fantasy? Recent Link
and Zelda games? Those would be worth a look, so she can hear some
really really good music, and see how it's used in the games.
Sandra
Chris Sanders
If she wanted to build an airplane she cold fly across the ocean in
wouldn't you kind of discourage her?
I don't think it's unrealistic to let a child know when something is
a VERY big deal and beyond their abilities and resources.
Maybe just even making lists of the things that become part of a
video game would help, and she could list what she wants her game to
be able to do.
Has she seen games like Morrowwind and Final Fantasy? Recent Link
and Zelda games? Those would be worth a look, so she can hear some
really really good music, and see how it's used in the games.
Lars Hedbor
> wouldn't you kind of discourage her?
Oh, honestly. Writing a computer game does not entail the same level of
risk as building and flying an airplane.
If my daughter fancied herself the next Amelia Earhart, I would encourage
her to study up on what it would take -- from aerodynamics to mechanical
engineering to aeronautics to liability law to survival preparation.
At some point along the line, she'd probably determine that it was beyond
her capabilities to make it happen -- but she'd have learned a LOT in the
meantime... and isn't that what we're trying to foster?
Kimberly Goza
--
Kimberly Goza
The ever-nomadic Goza Family is currently in
http://www.activated-storytellers.com
FOTR Gear http://www.cafepress.com/familiesroad
Sandra Dodd
her to study up on what it would take -- from aerodynamics to mechanical
OF COURSE!
But if she were eight years old I don't think you would START with
formal mechanical engineering.
And Amelia Earhart didn't BUILD her own plane. We can start with
more history for them—what the first airplanes were like and what
those people had to know to build those.
And with games, what did the FIRST video games look like?
The first electronic games (I SO wish I still had the one I ordered
from a cereal box of Rocky and Bullwinkle questions) were punch cards
with a circuit board behind them, and a battery, and a little light
bulb. If you put the pointer in the hole corresponding to the
correct answer, the light lit up. No video other than that light
bulb literally going on.
Those were a staple of science fairs in the late 1960's.
They're not much at all like Final Fantasy X, which took a heck of a
lot more than programming to create.
This: -=-Oh, honestly. -=- is unnecessarily antagonistic.
HONESTLY, writing a computer game that can fly across the ocean like
Link games (and all other modern, elaborate video games) takes MORE
knowledge and money than building an airplane. Holly has played Halo
2 with people in France and Australia, in England, Canada and places
she couldn't identify.
Planes haven't changed much in the past forty years (quite a scary
thought, but true). Video games didn't even exist forty years ago.
There are people still alive who were born before airplanes, yet the
growth curve of aeronautics levelled out quite a while back. Pong
won't be 40 years old until 2012 or so.
The risk to a child who WANTS to do something and whose parent goes
along as though it's possible is a psychological risk, not a physical
"in shark infested waters her plane went down that night" risk.
Liability law didn't save Amelia Earhart from quick oceanic or slow
islandic death, did it?
Encouragement can come in small packages.
DIScouragement can be the byproduct of unrealistic encouragement.
Just as a kid interested in planes could benefit from lots of history
of flight, maybe history of video games would be interesting to one
interested in game design.
http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/vidgame/
You can get lots more for $10 from that source.
http://sandradodd.com/videogames (the link was there, with lots of
other links)
But I think the main question (besides how, on a Mac, can a kid
design a game) was how to encourage, in an unschooling context,
something the mom doesn't know how to do. It doesn't go against
principles of learning for a mom to help a child discover how very
much goes into game design. It goes somewhat against the principles
of decent human interaction, I think, for a person to encourage
something that's nuts. If a homeless guy wants to become president
of the U.S. and wants me to help him design a petition to get into
the local primaries, it would be a heck of a lot nicer of me to
recommend something more realistic for him to do than for me to blow
ANY sunshine up him by saying "Ooooh, good iDEa." He might want to
run for city council first. And before that, he might want to get a
phone and a shower.
Sandra
GailB...@aol.com
Lars Hedbor
philosophically, I'd rather not place artificial boundaries around what my
kids can expect to accomplish -- the world has real boundaries enough!
If they state a goal which my experience tells me is out of their reach, I
would like to think that instead of scoffing at their ambitions, I'd help
them figure out what steps lie between here and there.
Either they'll work their way through each of the steps - and surprise us
both - or they'll figure out for themselves that the goal was unrealistic...
having *learned* a lot along the way. With encouragement and support and a
positive attitude, those are the lessons that stick.
A real life example: my life's goal was to go to Mars. It didn't take me a
whole lot of years to figure out that this was unrealistic, but along the
way, I learned the math necessary to predict Mars' orbit, enough programming
to perform the drudgery of the calculations, the biology to understand the
challenges of the Martian environment, the observational skills to find and
document Mars' appearance from my backyard, enough of an understanding of
rocketry and ballistics to comprehend what it would take to physically get
there... you get the idea.
And, like the best of unschooling results, much of this passionately-engaged
learning has stuck with me, far better than the garbage that was being
stuffed into my head in public school at the time.
If my parents had dismissed my interest with "can't do it, why don't you go
build a model spaceship instead," I might have missed out on all of that
learning, but become really good with plastic cement and paint.
Instead, they practiced "strewing," I suppose we'd call it today, with
books, magazines and other materials that I could explore at my own pace,
under my own power. They didn't guide me through this exploration, but
simply enabled it... again, isn't this what unschooling is all about? Not a
guided package tour, but freeform engagement with the world as it is?
Sandra Dodd
Sandra Dodd
If they state a goal which my experience tells me is out of their
reach, I
would like to think that instead of scoffing at their ambitions, I'd
help
Your statement implies that someone here recommended scoffing at a
child's ambitions.
Specifically, it seems to suggest you think that *I* recommended
scoffing at a child's ambitions, when what I DID recommend was
helping them figure out what steps lie between here and there.
-=Instead, they practiced "strewing," I suppose we'd call it today, -=-
Well, that's what I called it. Others have picked it up from me.
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
-= They didn't guide me through this exploration, but
simply enabled it... again, isn't this what unschooling is all
about? -=-
Yes.
-=-Not a guided package tour, but freeform engagement with the world
as it is?-=-
Of course.
-=-I apologize if my attitude came off as being antagonistic - but I
guess that
philosophically, I'd rather not place artificial boundaries around
what my
kids can expect to accomplish -- the world has real boundaries
enough!-=-
Before you assume in the future that anyone on this list is
recommending artificial boundaries, please maybe read back through
some of the archives. The world has real boundaries enough, and the
list has real problems enough without false assumptions being acted
upon.
Do you have kids? Let's talk about our own real experiences.
The list's philosophy and guidelines are outlined here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingdiscussion
Joyce wrote most of it. She's our best logician.
Sandra
Priscilla Sanstead
easy depending on what program you use. Gamemaker is a
really great program, but it's kinda hard to learn. I
recommend RPG Maker XP. It's very, very, very, easy to
understand. It takes minutes to learn, but it can take
years to master. I've been using it to make fun games
for years. You don't need to know any code to use it,
and that's what's great about it! If you buy it from
the official site, it costs $60, but you can get a
free, legal version of it on Limewire. It's what I've
been using. I hope she has fun with her game
developing!
Caroline (13)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
GailB...@aol.com
Is he glad now that he did?
Was he glad then?-=-
Sandra Dodd
Joyce Fetteroll
I am needing information about kid-friendly software that enables users
to design and create their own computer video-games. I'd prefer
something
that works on Macs
Deb Lewis
Nothing distracting. <g>***
Crop circles!
Deb L
Pamela Sorooshian
I apologize if my attitude came off as being antagonistic - but I guess that
philosophically, I'd rather not place artificial boundaries around what my
kids can expect to accomplish -- the world has real boundaries enough!
If they state a goal which my experience tells me is out of their reach, I
would like to think that instead of scoffing at their ambitions, I'd help
them figure out what steps lie between here and there.
Nance Confer
My kids played around with Stagecast a while back. Maybe they'd like to
look at these other links too.
Nance