curriculum search

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fxfireob

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May 24, 2006, 9:35:46 PM5/24/06
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hi,

i'm new to this group. first i'll intro us then on to my question:)

there are 4 of us - 2 adults and 2 kids. rene, our ds, is 10 and tala,
our dd, is 4. we're old hats at unschooling, the only way our kids
have ever been learned:) and it's been great.

now rene has asked to use a curriculum, he decided he wants more
discipline and a more 'classical' education. we've been looking around,
mostly interested in programs with an online component. he seems to be
most interested in k12 independent (k12.com) but laurel spring and
calvert also have online curriculum.

we did some online assesssment/placement tests (first tests he's taken
and he had fun:) and he is high in reading and about at "grade" in
grammar & math. the programs i've mentioned are flexible and self paced
(i think:)

so my question we're coming at the curriculum after unschooling does
anyone here have any reccommendations? we are secular and most
interested in a more socratic appraoch but online testing is fine -
like i said he seems to like taking them:)

many thanks,
susan

Sandra Dodd

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May 25, 2006, 12:28:30 AM5/25/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com

On May 24, 2006, at 7:35 PM, fxfireob wrote:

so my question we're coming at the curriculum after unschooling does

anyone here have any reccommendations?  we are secular and most

interested in a more socratic appraoch but online testing is fine -

like i said he seems to like taking them:)



This is an odd list for you to have chosen to ask for help NOT to unschool.

And to claim to be "old hats" with a child who doesn't want to unschool isn't the best recommendation to show to others who HAVE come here to find ways to make unschooling work.  

As one of the list owners, I would really like to maintain the purity and clarity of this list, and not move toward discussions of which curriculum might be best to use instead of unschooling.   Maybe ask at the sites of those who are using those curriculae.

Sandra

fxfireob

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Jun 1, 2006, 1:59:02 PM6/1/06
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wow, we have very different ideas about unschooling, or perhaps you
simply misunderstood and believe i'm the one wanting the curriculum.
the desire to use a curriculum is coming from our children, perhaps
because they have never been in a structured environment (no daycare,
no school, no church, no classes of any kind, no formal dinners or
weddings ... - we did go to a play once but it was a comedy/musical so
it was expected that the audience would respond exuberantly:) that they
are now curious what it would be like to have some guidelines to play
with. our core philosophy is always honor the child's drives and wishes
while surrounding them with a rich environment.*

so the idea to try a curriculum orginated with our 10 yo (11 in
september). he is completely self motivated (i didn't even "potty
train" him:). it seems the desire began because he's been wanting to
learn physics. he understand some advanced concepts like sting theory
but realized he didn't understand the math and when he looks at
calculus he wants to learn it but he knows he doesn't have the
foundation math down. he experienced the similar thing with english.
he reads very well and now is interested in writing so wants to learn
more about grammar and is now starting to teach himself to print and
write and read cursive.

from my reading of holt etc (i started reading unschooling writers over
20 years ago, well before i had children) all is fair game for an
unschooler - it's the system not the materials that is the problem. so
the reason i asked this question here was because i wanted
recommendations of resources that would allow my son to stay at the
helm of his own learning process.

i am sorry if i offended you with my question but looking to a
unschooling list is the only place i would go to look for advise in
resolving this seemly contradictory request. i understand that most
people move from a more structured approach to a less structured one
but in our case it is the reverse. in your response you seem to be in
judgement of my child's choice to unschool using a curriculum. you go
so far as to say we are not unschooling, but this assumption is wrong.
my children are unschooled learning all the time using anything that
they find interesting, and i am here to honor their choices. in doing
this we discuss with them ways to best meet those requests as well as
discuss the possible consequences to various choices so they can
achieve their long-term goals while allowing us to adjust things as
their goals change.

bottom-line: the choice to try a curriculum was and is rene's (right
now tala, our 4 yo, just likes to do whatever our 10 yo does so she
follows his choices at the moment:) and no rigid rule, no matter the
source, will convince me not to honor his way of learning.

i am simply a mother looking for a way for facilitate my child's
learning process in the manner he wishes if that pursuit offends you or
somehow distracts or detracts from this list feel free to unsub me.

my apologize for any offense,
susan
a life long unschooler

p.s if you would to read more about our educational philosophy we have
a bit on line at:
http://homepage.mac.com/thad_martin/learn/ed2philosophy.html

Robyn Coburn

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Jun 1, 2006, 3:26:28 PM6/1/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
<<<< so the idea to try a curriculum orginated with our 10 yo (11 in
september). he is completely self motivated (i didn't even "potty
train" him:). it seems the desire began because he's been wanting to
learn physics. he understand some advanced concepts like sting theory
but realized he didn't understand the math and when he looks at
calculus he wants to learn it but he knows he doesn't have the
foundation math down. he experienced the similar thing with english.
he reads very well and now is interested in writing so wants to learn
more about grammar and is now starting to teach himself to print and
write and read cursive. >>>>

Why don't you get him a selection of books and material about physics, math,
grammar and a cursive, or maybe better yet calligraphy, workbook and some
cool feeling pens?

There are so many high quality materials out there, starting with a
subscription to Scientific American www.sciam.com which regularly includes
great book reviews. I think the idea of limiting him to the dumbed down,
often error full, school textbook recommendations that come with packaged
curriculums might be part of what people are concerned about. One of the
problems of science education from textbooks is the static nature of them,
caused in part by the ponderous process for revision, let alone switching
publications. All realms of science are full of vibrant debate and delicious
uncertainty that is only captured by sources more ephemeral and contemporary
than a textbook.

This sounds like a situation recalling Kelly Lovejoy's "Stages of
Unschooling" article. Available to read here:
http://www.unschooling.info/articles/article6.htm

You seem to be up at Stage 3, but the usual curriculum requests tend to come
from people in Stage 1, who are more in need of reassurance and
encouragement to question. It really is the word "curriculum" that sends up
red sparks.

I like the Gnarly Math newsletter www.gnarlymath.com which in a lovely way
always connects all kinds of science and history with the math concepts
being illustrated.

That is the key maybe. Finding "resources" (as you now say) that make
connections, rather than looking for a "curriculum", that tends to
immediately embody a paradigm of separation and disconnection, of discrete
subjects, in people's minds - possibly even including the kids using it. One
concern is that the linear "progression" and disconnection, inherent in an
externally structured curriculum, are insidious or osmotic, and should be
guarded against by essentially creating one's own learning plan from the
buffet of choices instead.

Since many people on this list might be newly struggling to understand
Unschooling, a blanket endorsement of any curriculum, or the idea of using
one, without questioning further the assumptions behind the request, could
be confusing or counter productive to their journey.

Once again we are reminded of the importance of our word choices on line. My
usual caution is that while brevity is crucial in most writing, here it is
better to err on the side of more background information. Your description
here of your son's interests, and his process for arriving at his questions,
is extremely helpful.

Robyn L. Coburn


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Nance Confer

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Jun 1, 2006, 3:31:50 PM6/1/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
And we've been enjoying the Smithsonian magazine a lot lately!

Nance

Lars Hedbor

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Jun 1, 2006, 3:38:08 PM6/1/06
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I’m a huge fan of Science News – it’s a weekly, covering all disciplines of
science. I can generally skim it in 5 minutes or so, and can read it
cover-to-cover in 20-30 minutes.

The articles are short enough, and written at a level that my 7-year-old can
understand them pretty easily.

- Lars D. H. Hedbor
  Author, Small Business Projects/INTERNET

Betsy Hill

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Jun 1, 2006, 4:35:11 PM6/1/06
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**

That is the key maybe. Finding "resources" (as you now say) that make
connections, rather than looking for a "curriculum", that tends to
immediately embody a paradigm of separation and disconnection, of discrete

subjects, in people's minds - possibly even including the kids using it.**

When reading Robyn's post I did notice that I do have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "curriculum". (I'll own up to that.) When I hear "curriculum" I also hear whispers of "straight-jacket" and "treadmill". That may seem strange, but I think a curriculum is more than a book, it is a book with an intended speed. One is "supposed to" complete 5 lessons a week until the end of the book, or the end of the school year, which ever comes first. "Using" a curriculum can be a little more demanding than using a book. There is also a bit of an implication that curriculum is "complete" and that might sometimes discourage people from looking at additional resources. So I don't think curriculum has the power to hypnotize parents and take away free will <g> (at least I don' think it can overpower self-aware unschoolers), but I do think that there are values embedded in curriculum that we need to examine carefully and detatch from. Unschoolers are pretty well equiped to do this, but non-unschoolers might not even consider these factors.

Betsy


Sandra Dodd

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Jun 1, 2006, 5:02:21 PM6/1/06
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-=-I’m a huge fan of Science News –-=-

I hadn't thought about Science News for years. I just went and
subscribed. We got it, long ago, until we had two kids, and it was
swept away in the confusion. <g>

We get Smithsonian and that has led to some good read-aloud when a
good part comes along. I hate to ever throw those away (kinda like
National Geographic).

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

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Jun 1, 2006, 6:12:58 PM6/1/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
-==That may seem strange, but I think a curriculum is more than a book, it is a book with an intended speed.  ...  There is also a bit of an implication that curriculum is "complete"-=-

More than just an implication.

It denotes a course, like a circular race course.  And it has to do with steps and degrees, gradiants—altogether a schooling word.  "Used as a L. word since 1633 at Scottish universities."  


-=-Since many people on this list might be newly struggling to understand
Unschooling, a blanket endorsement of any curriculum, or the idea of using
one, without questioning further the assumptions behind the request, could
be confusing or counter productive to their journey.-=-

True.  And just because someone has said "I'm unschooling" for several years doesn't mean she's really relaxed into the flow of natural learning.  Frequently people will say "I THOUGHT I was unschooling, but I never really trusted that my kids could learn..."

Sandra

susan/foxfire

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Jun 1, 2006, 7:20:57 PM6/1/06
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thanks betsy, your response has help me understand a bit. i was not
educated within the traditional school system - went to an
experimental school and was always encourages to discover things
myself. so for me curriculum is simply a cohesive set of books and
other materials that cover a range of topics. i realize there is a
lot of indoctrination in the world (being of native american decent
and not being raised religious - particularly christian -
indoctrination is very much in my awareness) and the education system
has a great hand in it but i do my best to raise my children to know
and love who they are, think for themselves and question authority
while allowing others to do the same.

so for those new to unschooling i would not in anyway reccommend you
choosing to use a curriculum even if your child asks because both
parents and children need to "disorient" from the inculturation and
this takes not only time but very different experiences - ones you
can not find within a pre-packaged curriculum. if you do not allow
'deschooling' to happen fully there will not be the necessary
distance to not get sucked backed into that way of thinking, and it
is my guess that you will never experience what unschooling really is.

i have asked rene many times if he really wants a curriculum, showed
him the sample schedules - of course telling him he did not have to
stick to it:) but he is really excited about the idea and chose k12
because he had fun with the sample lessons and liked the core
subjects as well as the books and topics covered. k12 independence
does allow you to progress at your own pace and i think it's flexible
enough that if he wanted he could even do only one topic at a time.

neither my children nor i are good at "respecting the experts" but we
do respect individuals and recognize there is a lot to learn and lots
of resources (including pre-packaged curriculums:) diversity is key
for us so we will continue doing what we do to keep a good balance
and will always allow the kids to choose and change their minds. and
betsy as you pointed out there are dangers to using a curriculum,
even for those who are well experienced in alternative ways of
thinking and relating. the biggies being, as you said, not looking
beyond or questioning the curriculum, and i would add the pressure
due to the money spent.

we are planning to supplement for example rene wants to add latin &
greek and cartography while i want to add some socratic elements like
the touchstones discussion project books (touchstones.org) and some
philosophy books for children spearheaded by matthew lipman https://
cehs.montclair.edu/store/customer/home.php but this will be read
aloud & discuss material but only if they want to:)

plus i've found these links that look interesting but i haven't had
the time to really look through them:
http://www.handspeak.com/
- my hd is deaf so asl is important for them to be fluent in
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~feegi/carto.html
- for cartography
http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/

we're still looking for non religious latin & greek but thinking the
books at fun-books.com might satisfy him though it is regarding latin
& greek as the roots of english and not the languages themselves -
i'm not sure exactly why he wants to learn these languages, so i'm
not sure if he wants to learn the whole language or just wants to
understand english better - still exploring this:)

the idea of incorporating a curriculum into our lives is new for us
so i'm not going to "defend it" nor do i feel welcome to explore this
on this list. rene wants to move in this direction and i'm happy to
go along for the ride. i'm open to all that's out there because
learning is good and lots of fun and in my mind a curriculum is what
you make it. i'll let you know if we're being naive:)

thanks for your words, opinions and advise best wishes to all,
susan

Sandra Dodd

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Jun 1, 2006, 11:38:49 PM6/1/06
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-=-so for me curriculum is simply a cohesive set of books and
other materials that cover a range of topics.-=-

The "cohesion" is the problem with it and it's not "simply" anything.  It's complexly many things.

-=the idea of incorporating a curriculum into our lives is new for us
so i'm not going to "defend it" -=-

#4 from the posting policies:

 If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public examination, don't post it to the list.-

and

#5 

Before you hit "send," consider whether your post will contribute positively to the unschooling discussion or help people understand unschooling better.


Seriously.  If a curriculum search is important to you, find a good place to look for one.  This is not that place.


Sandra

susan/foxfire

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Jun 1, 2006, 7:36:58 PM6/1/06
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doubt is both good and bad.  doubting the opinion of another when they say they know better then you what is right for you is a good time to doubt. but when one doubts the words of another without asking more questions movement ceases and communication and learning dies.  the beauty of unschooling is there is no preset rules to follow, no right or wrong beyond trusting (or not trusting) your child will learn, will want to learn, will pursue learning throughout a lifetime. once we think we've learned all there is on a topic we loss the heart of unschooling. also hierarchical thinking, thinking you know better than another - be they 3 or 60 - how they should learn is the antithesis of unschooling. unschooling is warm, welcoming, loving, curious, open-minded, mysterious and always in flux.  it can never really be defined beyond it being a process of trusting and exploring ones life free from force and domination.

susan

LJ Stewart

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Jun 2, 2006, 2:06:36 AM6/2/06
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I was hoping for some input- I am designing an online "quiz" that for fun tells you what kind of homeschooler you are- or should be- it is meant to be fun- not serious al all- I wanted to come up with 5 different homeschool "types"  and seiries of questions (parameters) for them.. I am bt stumped!
So far I can think of radical unschooler, unschooler... hen well... I get bit stuck! I could add christian homeschooling, curriculum based, well-trained mind, Waldorf or ??? Any thoughts?
 When I get running later this week I will post so you can give a try.
 
Question I was thinking of asking were like
When your child ask to make a batch of cookies do you:
 
1) Have kids through recipe book agree on something they all like, have them  write shopping list  with pictures drive them to grocery store where they can go shop and spend money they made from them pumpkin growing business last Hallowe'en. them bake on their own
2) Spend 6  weeks at library researching how a mill works, take your kids to a farm and and show them an old mill, grind your own grain with mortar and pestle, then combine with homey from your backyard beehive, raisins from the dehydrator you and the co-op built last year and let bake in sun for 6 hours... drink with organic goatmilk.
3) Buy any kind of Keebler brand- made by ELVES
4) Tell them that they are too young to bake cookies with a real oven and haul out Easy Bake oven
5) Tell them great- they can watch you make them and link the spoon- they need to be perfect for company coming on the weekend.
 
Anyway- I am tired so not sure if above makes sense- but you get the idea :-)
Thanks!
Lisa
 

Sandra Dodd

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Jun 2, 2006, 2:44:01 AM6/2/06
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-=doubt is both good and bad. doubting the opinion of another when
they say they know better then you what is right for you is a good
time to doubt. but when one doubts the words of another without
asking more questions movement ceases and communication and learning
dies.-=-

Learning happens inside an individual. It doesn't happen outside,
between people. It doesn't have to be agreed upon.

We can only go by what people write on this list, and what is written
WILL be discussed in the light of what makes unschooling work well.
That's the purpose of the list.

-=thinking you know better than another - be they 3 or 60 - how they
should learn is the antithesis of unschooling.-=-

It's not about how people SHOULD learn; it's about how unschooling
works. It's about how people DO learn.

-=-unschooling is warm, welcoming, loving, curious, open-minded,
mysterious and always in flux. -=-

It's not mysterious to me. It's simple and clear. Life is often in
fluid movement, but the way learning works doesn't fluctuate.

Sandra


Joyce Fetteroll

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Jun 2, 2006, 6:53:07 AM6/2/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
On Jun 1, 2006, at 1:59 PM, fxfireob wrote:

but looking to a

unschooling list is the only place i would go to look for advise in

resolving this seemly contradictory request.


Rather than asking for a curriculum on an unschooling list -- for those who may end up in a similar situation -- give us the problem rather than the solution. Asking what other unschoolers would do for a 10 yo interested in physics (and some background to know at what depth he's interested) might elicit some suggestions on how their kids explored an interest like that. (Bill Nye, The Way Things Work, Standard Deviants (they have DVDs of lots of subjects) ...)

A better resource for more formal study would be eclectics and relaxed homeschoolers. While the philosophies of unschooling and relaxed/eclectic don't overlap, the people reading on boards and lists do. Unlike most school at homers, relaxed and eclectics are concerned that their kids are enjoying what they're doing (within the confines of their fears about what's necessary.)

i understand that most

people move from a more structured approach to a less structured one

but in our case it is the reverse.


Unschoolers move from *parent imposed* structure to helping the child explore whatever interests them in whatever way the child is drawn to. (Assuming the child is naturally driven and isn't responding to outside messages about how he "should" learn.) Kathryn Baptista's son took a class at Harvard Extension School at 14 or 15. Pam Sorooshian's 3 daughters have taken many classes at the community college. My daughter Kathryn at 13&14 has taken the college math classes her father teaches because she thinks they're fun. Unschooling doesn't mean no structure or no formal learning. It means kids are doing what *they* find fun or meaningful,  rather than what their parents think would be good for them to do.

Joyce

fxfireob

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Jun 2, 2006, 12:55:17 PM6/2/06
to UnschoolingDiscussion

Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> Learning happens inside an individual. It doesn't happen outside,
> between people. It doesn't have to be agreed upon.
>
it is personal and internal but it does not happen in a vacuum,
relating and relationships are very important because experiencing the
world around us is how we learn connection, coherence and harmony -
these can not happen without others or outside of a context. it is via
these externals that we can have inner peace in all that we do.
learning is not an either or situation it's full rich and complex yet
wonderfully easy and simple - one of those great paradoxes.

> We can only go by what people write on this list, and what is written
> WILL be discussed in the light of what makes unschooling work well.
> That's the purpose of the list.

yes the name of the list says it all:)

unschooling works because it encompasses everything - it took down
walls but not to put them up somewhere else. it shifted from
education/learning as something being done to people - children in
particular - to a natural way of life like breathing or heart beating.
what makes it work is that it is open minded and relaxed and does not
try to force conformity in any way. what makes it works is that it is
not only engaging but compassionate, curious and desiring of
understanding. unschooling is about allowing everything to teach us
something and does not try to impose itself on anyone but instead it
creates a support for self discovery and growth (which includes making
mistakes - one of the huge difference between unschooling and school
learning). it's like breathing it happens best when we are relaxed and
when we don't pay attention to it. it happens best when we allow
life/learning to reveal itself, that's where the trust comes in.

> It's not about how people SHOULD learn; it's about how unschooling
> works. It's about how people DO learn.

and 'how people do learn' is unique to each and no external source
should ever stand in the way of a child/persons unique learning style/
preference for any reason short of personal safety or the safety of
others. creating an environment that is rich and expansive is a
parent's role not reducing and promoting prejudice. so i can't see how
an unschooler could close the door to any way of learning as long and
the individual truly desires it, feels excited and engaged and feels
free and not coerced. the child inner voice is what is most important,
their discovery process honored and protected not molded by their
parents emotional response to a particular choice/desire (though these
responses imo need to be shared with the child but not in a way that
promotes guilt or any other coercive emotion but in a way that opens up
a dialog and strengthens the parent child relationship - check out
robin grille's book entitled "parenting for a peaceful world" i believe
he talks about emotional coercion under the socializing mode of
parenting - it a good read - intense but imo worth it)


>
> -=-unschooling is warm, welcoming, loving, curious, open-minded,
> mysterious and always in flux. -=-
>
> It's not mysterious to me. It's simple and clear. Life is often in
> fluid movement, but the way learning works doesn't fluctuate.
>
> Sandra

i don't know that learning doesn't fluctuate or isn't fluid, that idea
is very different from my experience of learning. the way i see it - a
huge part of life is a mystery and with every new moment brings some
piece of the unknown into our consciousness and so it is with
unschooling. we can never really know what our children will say, do,
want to explore/play with ... . and this is the amazing thing about
unschooling, it allows every moment to be a bit of a surprise and if we
embrace the uncertainty (by letting go of control & prejudice) and live
in these moments instead of holding firm to our pre-set belief
structure (our own personal 'knowingness') life unfolds in ways we
never imagined. and when we do this with our children we are
unschooling in it's 'purest' form. by following their lead, we let go
of our past and begin to see the world from our innocence and not as
jaded adults.

my best,
susan

fxfireob

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Jun 2, 2006, 1:53:10 PM6/2/06
to UnschoolingDiscussion

Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> On Jun 1, 2006, at 1:59 PM, fxfireob wrote:
>
> > but looking to a
> > unschooling list is the only place i would go to look for advise in
> > resolving this seemly contradictory request.
>
> Rather than asking for a curriculum on an unschooling list -- for
> those who may end up in a similar situation -- give us the problem
> rather than the solution.

the "problem" was he wanted to use a curriculum.

> Asking what other unschoolers would do for
> a 10 yo interested in physics (and some background to know at what
> depth he's interested) might elicit some suggestions on how their
> kids explored an interest like that. (Bill Nye, The Way Things Work,
> Standard Deviants (they have DVDs of lots of subjects) ...)

we actually have all those books and dvd's the standard deviants is a
great resource but he felt he just wasn't getting it with the math and
wanted more.

the situation isn't just one topic he wants art, math, music, science,
language arts, latin, greek, cartography, history ... i think that's
the whole list:) we have books covering all these topics and written
for different ages and have found online resources for some, he's read
many of them and checked out some website but he has decided he wants a
schedule, he wants to have the experience of working within a
structure.

>
> A better resource for more formal study would be eclectics and
> relaxed homeschoolers. While the philosophies of unschooling and
> relaxed/eclectic don't overlap, the people reading on boards and
> lists do. Unlike most school at homers, relaxed and eclectics are
> concerned that their kids are enjoying what they're doing (within the
> confines of their fears about what's necessary.)

yes i'm familiar with this approach but this choice is not fear based
it is child driven.


>
> > i understand that most
> > people move from a more structured approach to a less structured one
> > but in our case it is the reverse.
>
> Unschoolers move from *parent imposed* structure to helping the child
> explore whatever interests them in whatever way the child is drawn
> to. (Assuming the child is naturally driven and isn't responding to
> outside messages about how he "should" learn.) Kathryn Baptista's son
> took a class at Harvard Extension School at 14 or 15. Pam
> Sorooshian's 3 daughters have taken many classes at the community
> college. My daughter Kathryn at 13&14 has taken the college math
> classes her father teaches because she thinks they're fun.
> Unschooling doesn't mean no structure or no formal learning. It means
> kids are doing what *they* find fun or meaningful, rather than what
> their parents think would be good for them to do.
>
> Joyce

from your examples it sounds like rene's request isn't any different,
he's just not narrowing his focus to one or 2 topics and he's asking to
work from home rather than go to a classroom. it's seems at this
moment of my son's life he feels using a curriculum and supplementing
it with a few other courses will be 'fun and meaningful' for him. he
has repeatedly expressed a desire to play with all these topics at the
same time and he felt using a curriculum would best help him to achieve
that goal. he is the driving force in not only looking for but choosing
the program he wanted. i have suggested he try one course and he says
no he wants a full 'load', i suggested other options so he had a good
picture of what was available and he stuck to his choice and that's
enough for me - he asked, we discussed, he expressed himself and so we
are moving ahead.

he is so thrilled by the idea that when i posted the question here i
had no idea that there would be any negative responses at all - i was
taken back by it (as was he - he's read most the email responses both
mine and others) it never occurred to me i would be told i was not
unschooling, or that there would be any negative response, but i am
prone to naiveté:)

anyway i did talked to rene about latin & greek and he wants to learn
the languages and not just what part they play in the english language.
so if anyone knows a way for him to learn these languages that would be
great.

susan

marg...@gmail.com

unread,
Jun 2, 2006, 2:05:49 PM6/2/06
to UnschoolingDiscussion
Maybe he would enjoy going to a more mainstream homeschooling
conference to look at the curriculum dispays and perhaps listen to some
talks. I'm in Washington and saw something about a conference in my
state that is, I think, coming up soon. It didn't appeal to me... but
your son might enjoy seeing and hearing about different curriculum
options that he could choose from.

Robyn Coburn

unread,
Jun 2, 2006, 2:31:58 PM6/2/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
<<< the "problem" was he wanted to use a curriculum. >>>

As this discussion has gone on, it seems clearer and clearer that you *had*
found a curriculum (K12 whatever that is) that Rene was interested in. It
has become very clear that your son is interested in a personal experiment
with structured learning and external direction.

It was starting to sound to me, and I could be wrong, that the "problem" was
that you wanted some kind of approval for either that particular program or
the idea of bringing it into your house.

We, as a group, just aren't the right people to give you information on the
relative merits, or any other kind of comparisons, of various curricula. And
this list isn't the right place for that even if some folks with past
experience may be able to offer some nuggets off list.

<<<< anyway i did talked to rene about latin & greek and he wants to learn
the languages and not just what part they play in the english language.
so if anyone knows a way for him to learn these languages that would be
great. >>>>

It occurs to me that these were studied extensively in schools in the past
for their own sake. What about looking for some old text books from before
WWII for example? I have a Latin/English dictionary that is ancient that I
found in a used book store.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Robyn Coburn

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Jun 2, 2006, 2:39:07 PM6/2/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
<<< unschooling works because it encompasses everything - it took down
walls but not to put them up somewhere else. it shifted from
education/learning as something being done to people .....
snip.....

what makes it works is that it is
not only engaging but compassionate, curious and desiring of
understanding. ....
snip....

it creates a support for self discovery and growth

Unschooling is not an entity.

We the parents "took down walls".
We support our children's self discovery and growth.

Unschooling works because we make the choice to allow it to, to embrace,
actively, the ideas.

Betsy Hill

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Jun 2, 2006, 3:29:51 PM6/2/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
**

yes i'm familiar with this approach but this choice is not fear based

it is child driven.**

Is it for sure *intrinsic* to this child, or does he know schooled kids (or adults) that he admires and might be trying to emulate?

Betsy

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

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Jun 2, 2006, 3:38:43 PM6/2/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
give us the problem
> rather than the solution.

the "problem" was he wanted to use a curriculum.

**********
I would say that was his solution to a problem.
WHY does he want a curriculum? What is his goal in using a curriculum? Is he
looking for a diploma? Does he want to explore some topics that seem very
foreign and thinks that a classical curriculum in a box will provide that?
Is he feeling overwhelmed with the many choices he has in his life and would
like to go on discovery "autopilot"? What does he think a curriculum in a
box will provide that collecting the same information on his own will not?
You talked about schedules and"the experience of working within a structure"
I would think that most people use a schedule and structure when there is a
particular goal in mind. When we built our house, we had a construction
timetable, a book of what to do and how to do it, and also all the tools to
do it with. But we always had an end goal of a built home, so the structure
and timetable were important. Our goal was accomplished. Now we are still
working on our home but we have no bank to answer to, no inspections, no
real timetable to add the extras so we do it as we see fit. We may build a
book case or do some Landscaping and while we are still working we no longer
have to reach a goal, so we no longer worry about time, or banks or a
structured plan to finish.
So my question for both of you is What is the goal and why is self imposed
structure and scheduling not enough. Why do I need someone to tell me when
and how to do it?
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

fxfireob

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Jun 2, 2006, 5:40:47 PM6/2/06
to UnschoolingDiscussion

Robyn Coburn wrote:
> <<< the "problem" was he wanted to use a curriculum. >>>
>
> As this discussion has gone on, it seems clearer and clearer that you *had*
> found a curriculum (K12 whatever that is) that Rene was interested in.

i had found it around the same day i found this group - i had spent a
number of days looking at options.


> It has become very clear that your son is interested in a personal experiment
> with structured learning and external direction.

sure, i guess that's right. the more i talk to him the better i'm
understanding what he is looking for. if seems he wants to learn
'everything' but is overwhelmed with just how much is out there to
learn. one of the big sources of overwhelms seems to be how to
'schedule'/manage his time - both his dad and i are visual artist and
he's leans more toward the sciences and writing - so he's thinking that
a curriculum will help by giving him a sort of ready made structure
(something his dad and i are not so good at:) to sample so he can
develop that skill himself. honestly i would be surprised if he wanted
to do it more than one yr but that's his choice not mine, i'm just
trying to facilitate.

>
> It was starting to sound to me, and I could be wrong, that the "problem" was
> that you wanted some kind of approval for either that particular program or
> the idea of bringing it into your house.

no i wanted to know what's available, i have no knowledge of curriculum
had been running searches when i came across this discussion list. i
thought i would find people who have had some knowledge or experience
with available programs (didn't know curriculum was a 'dirty word' and
for that i am sorry i had no mal-intent) and i thought someone
would/could share with us or point us in a direction where we might
find some help. since we never had a need for a curriculum i wasn't
sure what was out there, and since we unschool i was trying to find
something which was not too rigid and would not 'take' his choice from
him - didn't want it to an overwhelming amount of structure rather
something with some guidelines and not strict time contraints ... that
sort of thing.

i am trying to give him what he wants while maintain the integrity of
our unschool foundation.

>
> We, as a group, just aren't the right people to give you information on the
> relative merits, or any other kind of comparisons, of various curricula. And
> this list isn't the right place for that even if some folks with past
> experience may be able to offer some nuggets off list.

just here to discuss options since we unschool i thought is was a good
place to discuss this, and from another post it seems other do utilize
more 'traditional'/classroom ed. rene does not want to be part of a
class - doesn't want that much structure - he just wants some.


>
> <<<< anyway i did talked to rene about latin & greek and he wants to learn
> the languages and not just what part they play in the english language.
> so if anyone knows a way for him to learn these languages that would be
> great. >>>>
>
> It occurs to me that these were studied extensively in schools in the past
> for their own sake. What about looking for some old text books from before
> WWII for example? I have a Latin/English dictionary that is ancient that I
> found in a used book store.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn

thanks, hoping to find non religious content - still not sure why he
wants to learn these languages (no one i know is:), but he does.

susan

fxfireob

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Jun 2, 2006, 5:47:48 PM6/2/06
to UnschoolingDiscussion

we are pretty much surrounded by unschooler - all his/our friends are
long-time unschools (only one had their child in school then 'schooled
at home' and after 2 yrs came fully to unschooling). most of our
extended family is very accepting of our educational choices, plus they
all live about 2000 mile from us so have little direct contact.

but i did i put your question to him and he thought a moment and said:
"no, it's all my idea"

susan

fxfireob

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Jun 2, 2006, 6:05:08 PM6/2/06
to UnschoolingDiscussion

Elissa Jill Cleaveland wrote:
> give us the problem
> > rather than the solution.
>
> the "problem" was he wanted to use a curriculum.
> **********
> I would say that was his solution to a problem.

yes

> WHY does he want a curriculum?

he says for structure

> What is his goal in using a curriculum?

he says he just wants to learn

> Is he looking for a diploma?

no but he does want to go to college.

> Does he want to explore some topics that seem very
> foreign and thinks that a classical curriculum in a box will provide that?

he says "yes - i just want to learn, period"

> Is he feeling overwhelmed with the many choices he has in his life and would
> like to go on discovery "autopilot"?

he says he's not overwhelmed by the choices nor does he want to go on
"autopilot" but he is finding structuring his own time challenging so
would like to experience a curriculum to see how they do it.

> What does he think a curriculum in a
> box will provide that collecting the same information on his own will not?

again he says structure

> You talked about schedules and"the experience of working within a structure"
> I would think that most people use a schedule and structure when there is a
> particular goal in mind. When we built our house, we had a construction
> timetable, a book of what to do and how to do it, and also all the tools to
> do it with. But we always had an end goal of a built home, so the structure
> and timetable were important. Our goal was accomplished. Now we are still
> working on our home but we have no bank to answer to, no inspections, no
> real timetable to add the extras so we do it as we see fit. We may build a
> book case or do some Landscaping and while we are still working we no longer
> have to reach a goal, so we no longer worry about time, or banks or a
> structured plan to finish.
> So my question for both of you is What is the goal and why is self imposed
> structure and scheduling not enough. Why do I need someone to tell me when
> and how to do it?
> Elissa Jill
> A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
> "A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

rene says: "structure doesn't seem to come natural to me... the reason
i want a curriculum, besides it giving me structure, is because i want
to go to college... i think a curriculum will give me more
confidence... i just wanting to learn"

susan

fxfireob

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Jun 2, 2006, 6:31:07 PM6/2/06
to UnschoolingDiscussion

marg...@gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe he would enjoy going to a more mainstream homeschooling
> conference to look at the curriculum dispays and perhaps listen to some
> talks.

thanks but he wants to be able to learn to manage his time while
learning and not be forced to conform to the strict structure that
"school-at-home" offers. the best way i can explain it, or as i
understand his request, is he's more interested in experiencing
structure, he doesn't want to be treated with disrespect by having his
free will usurped.

since he has always been unschooled he has a very strong sense of self
and inner authority. he doesn't want to be bored, given busy work, or
held to "grade level". instead he wants the freedom to choose he
courses and learn the material that interests him, but he wants to do
this within a larger structure of a curriculum so he can learn that
too:)

the difference being an imposed or forced structure as opposed to an
implied structure, guidelines or suggestions he can try out. then he
can take this experience and come up with something that works for him.
we're looking for something that is flexible but can also show him a
way of managing or structuring his time.

susan

Sandra Dodd

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Jun 2, 2006, 7:19:57 PM6/2/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
I let several posts through from the same person, though they're
quite repetitive. Rather than responding to each post separately,
please try to make a response that will cover several at once.

Also, MOST questions asked on the list are rhetorical questions,
hypothetical questions, asked to help people figure out what they
want to do. If the answers won't help people understand
unschooling, they might not be worth sending out to this whole list.

-=-What is his goal in using a curriculum?-=-


>
he says he just wants to learn

> -=-Is he looking for a diploma?-=-
>

no but he does want to go to college.


I think if a parent encourages a child to believe he needs a
curriculum to learn, or that a curriculum will help him get to
college (especially when the child is very young and has never been
to school), the parent is sabotaging any possibility of unschooling
really working.

-=-he is finding structuring his own time challenging so
would like to experience a curriculum to see how they do it.-=-

Programmed learning might structure learning, but a curriculum
doesn't do it; a teacher does.

Sometimes when a kid says he wants to school, it turns out that he
wants a lunch box, a bus ride, and to have a teacher. Sometimes an
art class or a photography workshop will do it (with the packed-at-
home lunch and a bus ride at some point).

If someone says he wants a schedule and some structure, parents could
help him develop that. A calendar, assignment book, desk area,
list of readings, etc., might satisfy the whole urge.

-=-"structure doesn't seem to come natural to me... the reason


i want a curriculum, besides it giving me structure, is because i want

to go to college... -=-

What doesn't come natural to people isn't a thing to encourage them
to pursue. Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence theory really
doesn't lend itself to saying "If your child lacks this natural
intelligence, drop all else and work on the one he does not have
naturally."

-=-i would be surprised if he wanted


to do it more than one yr but that's his choice not mine, i'm just

trying to facilitate.-=-

He might not last a week, so maybe don't spend much money on it.

There are many lists where curriculum use, unit studies and eclectic
homeschooling can be discussed. About the best this list can do is
remind people that a curriculum is a giant step AWAY from
unschooling, and that belief that a curriculum is helpful to learning
or college success is a big closed door between them and even seeing
unschooling, really.

Sandra

Betsy Hill

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Jun 2, 2006, 8:15:28 PM6/2/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
**

i was trying to find
something which was not too rigid and would not 'take' his choice from
him - didn't want it to an overwhelming amount of structure rather
something with some guidelines and not strict time contraints ... that

sort of thing.**


I think I get the idea of what he wants, but I have a hard time wrapping my brain about how it's going to work.

Wanting to look at the content in the book is different from wanting to be systematically made to sit down with the book so that the contents of the book are engraved into one's brain. (Which sounds a bit like what has been implied.) Skipping the dull parts, speeding up and slowing down all make sense to me as an unschooler. But, in this case I'm concerned that if "structure" is completely floppy and malleable, then it ceases to have any solidity at all. If he is completely empowered to do it, or not do it and he ends up mostly not doing it, will he be satisfied?

**


i am trying to give him what he wants while maintain the integrity of

our unschool foundation.**

I know it may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but it really seems like what he wants is to not unschool.

**


thanks but he wants to be able to learn to manage his time while
learning and not be forced to conform to the strict structure that

"school-at-home" offers.**

Stephen R. Covey's book, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People describes some interesting time management principles. Julie Morgenstern has written a book (and columns in O magazine) about organizing stuff. She has also written a book about organizing time, but it is aimed at working adults, I think, but it still might be worth a look. She's pretty savvy. Other than these type of books, I don't think curriculum teaches someone to be organized. That may have to be a task that the whole family works on -- child willing.

Do you and your son have a good understanding of his preferred learning style(s)? That's really fundamental in picking the most rewarding resources to use. If I wanted to learn something like Ancient Greek (which isn't spoken?), I think I'd prefer a computer program over a book. That would somehow feel livelier and more engaging. For Latin I'd probably (myself) prefer a class or a club, along with the book I've already got of funny Latin phrases. (Some curricula are so serious that humor is completely omitted. A mistake, in my book.)


Betsy

DJ Houston

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Jun 2, 2006, 10:03:02 PM6/2/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Maybe he'd like browsing those "what every ?th grader should know." We
had a lot of fun with those. They have interesting stuff in them, and
its kind of odd sometimes seeing what that person thinks every
whatevereth grader should know. There's all kinds of cool stuff in the
books, and if you don't like one, you can look at another one. They are
great spin off books. I really liked the "what every 4th grader" should
know book. I don't know any 4th grader that knows all that stuff. I'm
53 and I don't know it. It was kind of like experiencing a trivia game
in book form, checking out what I knew and what I didn't know in it.

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

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Jun 3, 2006, 9:01:38 AM6/3/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com

I really feel that there is far more going on in Rene's head than might be
being addressed
For clarity, how old is he again?
There are some points I want to touch upon.

>>>WHY does he want a curriculum?
>>>>he says for structure

*****What does "structure"mean?

>>>> What is his goal in using a curriculum?
>>>> he says he just wants to learn

*************this sends up unschooling flags (incidentaly, these are rainbow
striped with an anarchy symbol, a buddha, an all knowing eye and a google
symbol)
Does he feel as if he is not learning? Why would a child who has freely
learned all his life suddenly want to go towards a very unnatural way of
learning? Is there an outside influence of relatives or schooled friends
that are influencing him?

>>>> Is he looking for a diploma?
>>>>no but he does want to go to college.

*********My children plan on college, there are loads of ways to go to
college without using a curriculum in a box.

> Does he want to explore some topics that seem very
> foreign and thinks that a classical curriculum in a box will provide that?
>>>he says "yes - i just want to learn, period"

**********It sounds to me that he may not understand much about natural
learning and thinks that he is currently not learning. Does he know any
other unschooled teens? Has he talked with them at all? The unschooling.info
boards has a great kid's board.

> Is he feeling overwhelmed with the many choices he has in his life and
> would
> like to go on discovery "autopilot"?
>>>>he says he's not overwhelmed by the choices nor does he want to go on
>>>>"autopilot" but he is finding structuring his own time challenging so
>>>>would like to experience a curriculum to see how they do it.

***********Have you thought about borrowing some syllibi (sp?) to read the
outlines? I know that some curriculum sites have samples online that he
could look at. It's much cheaper to explore that way first then to spend
loads of bucks on a curriculum he may not even wind up using.

> What does he think a curriculum in a
> box will provide that collecting the same information on his own will not?
>>>>again he says structure

**********What does "structure"mean to him?

>
>>>>rene says: "structure doesn't seem to come natural to me... the reason
>>>>i want a curriculum, besides it giving me structure, is because i want
>>>>to go to college... i think a curriculum will give me more
>>>>confidence... i just wanting to learn"

*********IMNSHO, I would deeply explore the WHYs. Why does he think that a
curriculum will give him more confidence. Why is he feeling insecure about
what he is doing now? What does he think that a curriculum will provide that
an interesting class or his own interest in a subject will not?
To me, a curriculum is the surest way to NOT learn.
"i just wanting to learn" He is learning, every day, every moment that his
eyes are open and the world is there, right in front of him, glittery and
swirly and REAL.

Rubypri...@aol.com

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Jun 2, 2006, 11:20:01 PM6/2/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
In a message dated 6/2/2006 7:31:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fxfi...@mac.com writes:
thanks, hoping to find non religious content - still not sure why he
wants to learn these languages (no one i know is:), but he does.

susan
 
 
Three of my four at different times became enamored  with Latin.  I think the first two were interested because someone told them it wasn't a "spoken" language.  My 24 yr old son STILL finds interest in Latin and learning more words and using them whenever he can toss around something he thinks is a "cool saying".  My Oldest had a short interest in Latin that waned as time went on but she explored the language and got more interested in the history and other things that are more geographical about Latin than the language itself.
 
I think number three was just exploring to find out why the first two thought it time worthy to do.  He likes language and speaks SOME of many different languages but at 21 he is only fluent in English and Spanish.
 
Number four... she orders and reads books in German.  She's been teaching herself German for four, maybe five years.  Sometimes more interested than at other times.  Sometimes she will immerse herself in the German and do lots  of things she's learned about people and cultures in Germany (beer drinking and dissecting was once a thing explored among other things)  other times she's more ensconced in the literal learning of the language.  Then there are seasons when she doesn't even speak German nor mention anything about it.  Then I'll find she's order novels in German to read.  So comes and goes.
 
The resources they used were mostly online.  They did get some books from the library and Cait did have a specific program you load onto the computer that you follow along with and you use a microphone type thing with the computer so you learn to speak the words correctly with the right accent.
 
I think just checking the library and even online or software stores you can come up with lots of options besides just a cut and dry curriculum for learning the language your son is interested in.
 
I know there is a beginners online software that you can do online to help you pick up different languages that isn't very demanding and has no set timeline or anything, you just do it as you feel like it or have time.  I'll ask Cait when I see her for the name of the software or the website address and forward that along if you'd like.  They have several languages there, I remember trying a couple over the years for myself.
 
You might can just find it by googling "learn a language online" or something similar.
 
Good luck,
glena

Sandra Dodd

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Jun 3, 2006, 11:48:47 AM6/3/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
-=-

Three of my four at different times became enamored  with Latin.  I think the first two were interested because someone told them it wasn't a "spoken" language.  My 24 yr old son STILL finds interest in Latin and learning more words and using them whenever he can toss around something he thinks is a "cool saying".  My Oldest had a short interest in Latin that waned as time went on but she explored the language and got more interested in the history and other things that are more geographical about Latin than the language itself.

 -=-


Books that Latin Students will Actually Enjoy


A list on Amazon, with links to lots of Asterix comics in Latin, but also translations of things like Winnie the Pooh, Cat in the Hat, Ferdinand...


http://tinyurl.com/qhtdp

fxfireob

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Jun 2, 2006, 8:46:11 PM6/2/06
to UnschoolingDiscussion

Sandra Dodd wrote:
> I let several posts through from the same person, though they're
> quite repetitive. Rather than responding to each post separately,
> please try to make a response that will cover several at once.

i'm sorry i seem to be very out of synch or maybe you just don't like
me? i thought this was a list where we were invited to discuss
unschooling - didn't know i need to limit my expression, conform to
preconception or that i should ignore individual posts.


>
> Also, MOST questions asked on the list are rhetorical questions,
> hypothetical questions, asked to help people figure out what they
> want to do. If the answers won't help people understand
> unschooling, they might not be worth sending out to this whole list.

i'm not sure i know where this line is. how do i know what is helpful
or not helpful to another? personally i love other peoples stories and
situation - i learn a lot for others perspectives.


>
> -=-What is his goal in using a curriculum?-=-
> >
> he says he just wants to learn
>
> > -=-Is he looking for a diploma?-=-
> >
>
> no but he does want to go to college.
>
>
> I think if a parent encourages a child to believe he needs a
> curriculum to learn, or that a curriculum will help him get to
> college (especially when the child is very young and has never been
> to school), the parent is sabotaging any possibility of unschooling
> really working.

i have repeatedly told him there was no need for him to have any
structured education to be successful, that he didn't need college nor
did he need hs to get into college if that's what he wanted. and i told
him that right now he might want that but he could always change his
mind. i'm sorry you can't seem to believe he is telling the truth when
he says it's his idea.

>
> -=-he is finding structuring his own time challenging so
> would like to experience a curriculum to see how they do it.-=-
>
> Programmed learning might structure learning, but a curriculum
> doesn't do it; a teacher does.
>
> Sometimes when a kid says he wants to school, it turns out that he
> wants a lunch box, a bus ride, and to have a teacher. Sometimes an
> art class or a photography workshop will do it (with the packed-at-
> home lunch and a bus ride at some point).
>
> If someone says he wants a schedule and some structure, parents could
> help him develop that. A calendar, assignment book, desk area,
> list of readings, etc., might satisfy the whole urge.

we spent the last year doing that and he still wants what he wants.

>
> -=-"structure doesn't seem to come natural to me... the reason
> i want a curriculum, besides it giving me structure, is because i want
> to go to college... -=-
>
> What doesn't come natural to people isn't a thing to encourage them
> to pursue. Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence theory really
> doesn't lend itself to saying "If your child lacks this natural
> intelligence, drop all else and work on the one he does not have
> naturally."

again he is asking, these are his words, his desire.

>
> -=-i would be surprised if he wanted
> to do it more than one yr but that's his choice not mine, i'm just
> trying to facilitate.-=-
>
> He might not last a week, so maybe don't spend much money on it.

i've thought of that as liuck would have it the program he chose has a
30 day return policy


>
> There are many lists where curriculum use, unit studies and eclectic
> homeschooling can be discussed. About the best this list can do is
> remind people that a curriculum is a giant step AWAY from
> unschooling, and that belief that a curriculum is helpful to learning
> or college success is a big closed door between them and even seeing
> unschooling, really.
>
> Sandra

this is really not as big of a deal as it seems to have become. it's
just a request by a nearly 11yr boy to discovery something for himself
amd a mother asking for some reconmendation to help him have the best
possible experience he can give the confines of the request.

it seems you can't comprehend his process and wish to judge it instead
of asking him, respecting his way, his journey, but would rather not
consider the possiblity he might be doing exactly what he needs to do
but instead find a reason to imply there is a problem. i don't see my
son as having a problem and i will not be sharing this email with him
because he's happy with where he is and with the choices he's making
and if it is a mistake it is his to make and his to discover not for me
to save him from it.

i'm am sorry you are so bother by my posts and i will leave. it was
never my intent to disrupt or triggers other so they feel
uncomfortable. and i am also sorry i do not fit your notion of an
unschool but that doesn't mean we are not. since this email makes it
painfully clear that i am not welcome (as did your first and every
other email) out of respect i will not post anymore. since i will not
be check back if anyone wishes contact me please feel free to email me
private. i'm always open to discussion particularly unschooling in all
it's variation.

in closing i want to whole heartedly thank people for taking the time
to discuss this topic and appreciate the opinions and advise. i will
take what is helpful and leave the rest - i like editing myself so
appreciate everyone candor:)

my best always,
susan
foxfire observatory
fxfi...@mac.com
austin, tx

fxfireob

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Jun 2, 2006, 9:02:07 PM6/2/06
to UnschoolingDiscussion

Betsy Hill wrote:
>
> I know it may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but it really seems like what he wants is to not unschool.

rene didn't appreciate this conclusion and completely disagrees. i
probably should not have shared this with him - my mistake - even
though he felt good about answering the questions in other posts i
think this put an end for him wanting to discuss his learning with this
group. he sees himself as an unschooler and your conclusion will not
sway him from that. it's interesting that taking classes is acceptable
and what he wants isn't. truth - these are judgement and constraints
are individually imposed and not true to unschool - unschooling
(dispite the un-) is not against it is for. i think rene is great and
that his exploring is great and that he's happily trying out new
experiences is great and that he is open to everything is great and a
testiment to unschooling.

like ken wilbur says "no one's stupid enough to be 100% wrong" . and
that's how we live our life we look for the useful part is everything
we encounter.

i appreciate the advise you have shared.

thanks,
susan

Nance Confer

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Jun 3, 2006, 7:19:29 AM6/3/06
to Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
A quality we notice so often in our children and in our unschooling
friends --

>
> since he has always been unschooled he has a very strong sense of self
> and inner authority.

It just caught my eye and rang a bell -- talk about mixing metaphors! :)

One of the great benefits of unschooling!

Nance

Sandra Dodd

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Jun 3, 2006, 11:57:19 AM6/3/06