Help!!! Don't know what to do....
ggo...@cogeco.ca
I heed help. My name is Sue and I need help. I am new to this group
and fairly new to unschooling - pulled kids out of school Oct 2006.
My dd is thriving. She is 8 yrs old and is very bright and creative
and really hated school (except for recess) and now loves all the time
she gets to do her own things that interst her. My ds is almost 6 yrs
old. He has really become aggressive and mean. If something doesn't
go the way he wants it to go he flips out verbally and physically - to
me, his sister, his friends, etc... Now he has started to wreck
things around the house. Not even in anger. It seems to happen when
he is doing arts and crafts (cut/etch up the table) or play on
computer (scratch up the monitor) or play Playstation (chew up the
controller cord). I just do not know what to do except to keep a
constant eye on him every waking moment like a 2yr old. So I am
thinking thta maybe he needs to be more active. I have suggested all
sorts of thing to do but he wants to do nothing except stay home.
Which also is not fair to my daughter because she is very social and
needs to do things.
I have read all the books about unschooling and I agree with it. But
I am finding it hard to "live" it. All is great when there are no
conflicts. But it seems like he either yelling at me saying he HATES
me - or hitting me. I explain to him each and everytime that it hurts
and I do not want him to do that any more. I have tried to get him to
talk to me about what is bothering him. All he says is that
"everybody hates me!"- "you are always so mean to me." I can never
figure out what exactly it was that I did wrong other than telling him
that he cannot do something or have somthing at that particular time.
I can only be calm for so long and then I find myself getting angry
back at him. And now I am finding all these things aroung the house
that he is wrecking. My husband thinks maybe he need to go back into
school. I do not know. All I know is that I am doubting the "always
show respect type of response" in this case. It is so hard to be
respectful to him and of his needs and wants when he is soooooo
disrepectful to us and his surroundings. I realize that he is only 6
yrs old but it is getting so bad that I feel like running away.
If anyone has any input or suggestions they would be most welcome!
Thanks
Sue
Any
Sandra Dodd
and I do not want him to do that any more. -=-
Stop repeating yourself, especially if you're doing it in any sort of
sing-songy, condescending voice.
-=-. I have tried to get him to
talk to me about what is bothering him. All he says is that
"everybody hates me!"- "you are always so mean to me." -=-
Something else is going on then if he thinks you're mean to him.
I would think it was mean if someone kept reciting the same set of
words to me each and every time I did something, though.
-=-I can never
figure out what exactly it was that I did wrong other than telling him
that he cannot do something or have somthing at that particular time.-=-
See if reading that page will help. It might. There are ways to say
yes and no that aren't as irritating as others.
-= And now I am finding all these things aroung the house
that he is wrecking. My husband thinks maybe he need to go back into
school. -=-
Did your son want to be home, or did he want to go to school?
-=- All I know is that I am doubting the "always
show respect type of response" in this case. -=-
I'm doubting that you've been showing respect for what he really
wants and really likes and really needs. It's a hard place to get,
but if you want to get there I think people here can help you.
http://sandradodd.com/peacefulparenting
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulness
(but the "yes" link above is a better starting place)
Sandra
Jenny
anger. It seems to happen when he is doing arts and crafts (cut/etch
up the table) or play on computer (scratch up the monitor) or play
Playstation (chew up the controller cord)."
Do you ever just give him stuff to destroy? There is a certain kind
of fulfillment in destroying things.
My 5 yo dd likes to do that kind of stuff. It's more of a need of the
physical sensation and the cause and effect, than it is of being
intentionally mean or destructive. I try to find things that she can
have a go at.
For instance, one time I was putting a package together that had
pieces of styrofoam in it. I gave her the extra pieces and some
scissors and let her stab and cut to her heart's content until she'd
had enough, then I vacuumed them up. Or another example might be when
I pull out fabric to make something and she wants some to shred up.
It could be yarn or ribbon or just pieces of fabric. I just give her
some scissors and away she goes. Other fun stuff to destroy are old
balls, balloons, barbie hair, paper, crayons, chalk, old bread,
cardboard, plastic tubs or bottles.
He seems to have a need that is not being filled. Rather than letting
him go unfulfilled or fulfill it in a harmful way, help him fill it in
a safe way. Scissors ARE fun, stabbing things IS fun, chewing on
stuff IS fun. I personally chewed up barbie shoes until I was about 9
yrs old.
If you give him stuff in a safe and happy way, you won't have to get
mad at him for destroying the other stuff, because he probably won't.
And if he is still destroying stuff you don't want him to ask him not
to and swap it out with something he can destroy. I do this with my
daughter. Actually I do this with my dog too, and she is smart enough
to know what is okay to destroy and what is not, even if she still
sometimes destroys stuff she shouldn't. She just puts herself in her
crate afterward. Sometimes that's how I know that she's done
something "naughty". Okay that was a bit off topic, kind of.
Kids are smart, your son is smart enough to fulfill his needs when he
has a need to fulfill, now you just need to help him do it in a safer,
more respectful way.
Pamela Sorooshian
Do you ever just give him stuff to destroy? There is a certain kind
of fulfillment in destroying things.
My 5 yo dd likes to do that kind of stuff. It's more of a need of the
physical sensation and the cause and effect, than it is of being
intentionally mean or destructive. I try to find things that she can
have a go at.
Schuyler Waynforth
My dd is thriving. She is 8 yrs old and is very bright and creative
and really hated school (except for recess) and now loves all the time
she gets to do her own things that interst her.
That's great. But the fact that you lead from your daughter who is doing well out of school to your son who isn't suggests that you are comparing them. It doesn't feel good to be the one who isn't doing well. Maybe if you can think of them as separate people it will help you to respond to their individual needs .
My ds is almost 6 yrs
old. He has really become aggressive and mean. If something doesn't
go the way he wants it to go he flips out verbally and physically - to
me, his sister, his friends, etc...
Can you help more things go his way? Can you help him to get the things he wants? And when you can't that minute can you try and set it up so that he sees that you are trying to give him what he wants?
I am much better at helping Simon and Linnaea get what they want than I used to be, but tonight Simon got really frustrated because a sword belt he and David and I were making didn't work right quickly enough. He yelled and kicked the door and then went and hung out in another room for a little bit. He and I have talked about what works and at the minute he prefers time alone to cool off. Linnaea doesn't like time alone when she's angry. But neither of them want to talk about their anger. Certainly they don't want me to talk to them about it, if they want to talk about it they'll initiate the conversation. When Simon came back into the room he wasn't angry and we finished the belt and whatever had frustrated him didn't anymore.
Now he has started to wreck
things around the house. Not even in anger. It seems to happen when
he is doing arts and crafts (cut/etch up the table) or play on
computer (scratch up the monitor) or play Playstation (chew up the
controller cord).
This is a separate issue though, right? These are accidents or things that are happening because he doesn't think to put cardboard down on the table before using it or isn't careful with the computer or chews on things without thinking about it (Simon did that for ages, not cords though, usually his shirt). Maybe you could help him with those things. If he's going to cut up something at the table, put something down on it first. When he's playing on the playstation try and point out when he's chewing on the cord, or offer him a plate of yummy food that he could chew on instead or buy a bunch of licorice ropes to have on hand to exchange for the playstation cord.
By blurring his anger with these accidents you are making his "problems" loom larger in your mind than you might if you saw them as separate things.
I just do not know what to do except to keep a
constant eye on him every waking moment like a 2yr old.
Maybe not just like a 2 year old. Maybe you could be constantly aware of him like he were a 6 year old. Linnaea is 6 and I usually have a pretty good sense of where she is and what she's doing most of the day. Simon is 9 and I'm usually pretty aware of what he's doing most of the day. I like to know what they are doing. I like to be involved with a lot of what they are doing. Maybe if you saw spending time with him as something to enjoy and embrace instead of something to resent he wouldn't feel so much like everyone hated him.
So I am
thinking thta maybe he needs to be more active. I have suggested all
sorts of thing to do but he wants to do nothing except stay home.
Which also is not fair to my daughter because she is very social and
needs to do things.
Can you invite people over while your son is moving through this period of not wanting to go out? Can you try and make being at home as much fun as possible for your daughter? Can you play in the yard with him or get a couple of exercise balls to roll around on in the house. Linnaea found her hula hoop today so she and Simon have been hula hooping their way around the living room and kichen. Maybe you can see if there is a new movie out that he'd like to go and see. Wanting to stay home isn't a bad thing. And maybe if he feels like you are willing to help him stay home as much as possible he will be more willing to go out occasionally.
I have read all the books about unschooling and I agree with it. But
I am finding it hard to "live" it. All is great when there are no
conflicts.
Yes, in much of life that is true. And I am sure that was true when they were in school as well.
But it seems like he either yelling at me saying he HATES
me - or hitting me. I explain to him each and everytime that it hurts
and I do not want him to do that any more.
It didn't work the first few times, maybe its time to start looking for other things to do or say.
I have tried to get him to
talk to me about what is bothering him. All he says is that
"everybody hates me!"- "you are always so mean to me." I can never
figure out what exactly it was that I did wrong other than telling him
that he cannot do something or have somthing at that particular time.
Well, that's what you did. You said he couldn't do something or have something at that particular time. That can be a pretty big thing. If I don't get what I want when I want it sometimes I can feel pretty awful about it and I'm 38. Try and make those times when you tell him that he can't do something or have something as rare as possible, try to say yes as much as possible, and work to make saying yes possible most of the time. It makes a huge difference. Really!
I can only be calm for so long and then I find myself getting angry
back at him.
See it is easy to be angry when you don't get your way.
And now I am finding all these things aroung the house
that he is wrecking. My husband thinks maybe he need to go back into
school. I do not know. All I know is that I am doubting the "always
show respect type of response" in this case. It is so hard to be
respectful to him and of his needs and wants when he is soooooo
disrepectful to us and his surroundings. I realize that he is only 6
yrs old but it is getting so bad that I feel like running away.
You can run away. It is certainly one of many choices you have in front of you. Why did you choose to take him out of school? Why did you choose to unschool? You don't have to answer, but think about what brought you to those decisions and see if you can hold those goals and ideas in front of you.
Sometimes I find it really hard to be the parent I want to be. But it helps if I think about why I am doing this and how important my relationship with Simon and Linnaea is to me. So, when Simon wanted to play Yu-gi-oh last night just as I was climbing into bed I took the deck he offered and we played a game. And when Linnaea wanted to get ice cream after a really long day out David found a convenience store that was still open and we searched through the car for all of our change and she got ice cream. And I try to make sure that there is a fresh glass of water by the bed every night for Linnaea. For me being that parent, working on that relationship is made up of trying to say yes as much as possible and trying to make their lives filled with as many happy moments as I can help them achieve.
Schuyler
--
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
constant eye on him every waking moment like a 2yr old.
Schuyler wrote: "Maybe not just like a 2 year old. Maybe you could
be constantly aware of him like he were a 6 year old.-=-
I agree.
To say "like a 2 yr old" insults him. You might not have said it in
those words to him, but you wrote it on a list with over a thousand
members, so you did think it, and you must've meant it.
It's not a good attitude to have.
A six year old shouldn't be left by himself so long that he can
destroy something. Maybe he's frustrated that he's not getting
enough good, happy, peaceful attention, and is getting too much
explanation, complaint and dissatisfaction with his age and behavior
and all.
Sandra
ggo...@cogeco.ca
On Feb 3, 4:48 pm, Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:
> -=- I explain to him each and everytime that it hurts
> and I do not want him to do that any more. -=-
>
> Stop repeating yourself, especially if you're doing it in any sort of
> sing-songy, condescending voice.
>
What should I do??
> -=-. I have tried to get him to
> talk to me about what is bothering him. All he says is that
> "everybody hates me!"- "you are always so mean to me." -=-
>
> Something else is going on then if he thinks you're mean to him.
>
I know there is but how do I find out what is going on? How do I get
him to stop hurting his sister, myself or our stuff. What would you
do?
> I would think it was mean if someone kept reciting the same set of
> words to me each and every time I did something, though.
>
> -=-I can never
> figure out what exactly it was that I did wrong other than telling him
> that he cannot do something or have somthing at that particular time.-=-
>
> http://sandradodd.com/yes
>
> See if reading that page will help. It might. There are ways to say
> yes and no that aren't as irritating as others.
> -= And now I am finding all these things aroung the house
> that he is wrecking. My husband thinks maybe he need to go back into
> school. -=-
>
> Did your son want to be home, or did he want to go to school?
>
He wanted to be home with us.
> -=- All I know is that I am doubting the "always
> show respect type of response" in this case. -=-
>
> I'm doubting that you've been showing respect for what he really
> wants and really likes and really needs. It's a hard place to get,
> but if you want to get there I think people here can help you.
>
I will admit that I am not always showing respect but I am trying very
hard. I just wish I knew what is wrong.
> http://sandradodd.com/peacefulparentinghttp://sandradodd.com/mindfulness
> (but the "yes" link above is a better starting place)
I have read your website a couple of times and find it very helpful.
I find I sometimes have to read it many times a week as a reminder.>
> Sandra
ggo...@cogeco.ca
On Feb 3, 5:34 pm, "Jenny" <jensta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Now he has started to wreck things around the house. Not even in
> anger. It seems to happen when he is doing arts and crafts (cut/etch
> up the table) or play on computer (scratch up the monitor) or play
> Playstation (chew up the controller cord)."
>
> Do you ever just give him stuff to destroy? There is a certain kind
> of fulfillment in destroying things.
>
Good idea.
Thanks, we will try this.
Sue
ggo...@cogeco.ca
You are absolutely right. I guess I just need it spelled out for me
sometimes. But I just want to make I clear that my kids are never
left by themselves. Thay are usually in the same room as me. But
obviously I am not giving them enough quality attention. I will have
to change that.
Thanks
Sue
Sandra Dodd
very
hard. I just wish I knew what is wrong.-=-
I'm not the only one here who's suggesting that if you move toward
showing more respect, there might not be anything wrong.
I hope you did read those links.
-=-I have read your website a couple of times and find it very helpful.
I find I sometimes have to read it many times a week as a reminder.>-=-
It's a big website. I doubt anyone's read it all even once.
Instead of reading something many times a week, read part of
something once and change your behavior. Do differently with your son.
-=-Stop repeating yourself, especially if you're doing it in any sort of
> sing-songy, condescending voice.
>
>
What should I do??
Stop repeating yourself. Say things different ways. Don't talk too
much. Be with him more. Don't use an irritating false voice, but
speak to him as you would to a guest in your home, or to a friend
your own age.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
sometimes. But I just want to make I clear that my kids are never
It's possible to be in the same room with others and be alone.
It's possible to be in the same house and and not feel at all alone.
If he's destroying things and you're always in the room, how does he
act just prior to the beginning of a destructive moment?
-=- But I just want to make I clear that my kids are never
left by themselves. Thay are usually in the same room as me.-=-
It can't be never and usually both.
It can't be everything it once.
"By himself" I didn't mean you at the movies and him at home. I
meant him at the computer and nobody's there to know he's messing it up.
Sandra
Laura Endres
>>>thinking thta maybe he needs to be more active. I have suggested all
>>>sorts of thing to do but he wants to do nothing except stay home.
http://piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com/
*~*~*~*~*~*
"I can't actually see myself putting make-up on my face at the age of sixty. But I can see
myself going on a camel train to Samarakand." ~Glenda Jackson, British actress and politician
*~*~*~*~*~*
Pamela Sorooshian
It's not a good attitude to have.
A six year old shouldn't be left by himself so long that he can
destroy something.
Sandra Dodd
That's not destruction; that's improvement!
Sandra, in New Mexico, who grew up in an adobe house and now lives in
a frame house which is not NEARLY as comfy
Mar...@aol.com
-=-. I have tried to get him to
talk to me about what is bothering him. All he says is that
"everybody hates me!"- "you are always so mean to me." -=-
Heather Woodward
arcarpenter
On Feb 3, 3:34 pm, ggou...@cogeco.ca wrote:
==It seems to happen when
> he is doing arts and crafts (cut/etch up the table) or play on
> computer (scratch up the monitor) or play Playstation (chew up the
> controller cord). ==
It really sounds like he's just not realizing what effect his actions
will have on these things -- this is how kids learn things. The
chewing sounds like a habit that he's not thinking about -- many kids
his age have something like that, they're just not all expensive.
<G>
Instead of just being near, try relaxing, having fun, and doing these
activities with him. I think things will really improve overall when
he's having fun with you. You might try making messes together --
baking soda and vinegar with other cheap foods thrown in, all in a
bowl in the sink ... using bath paints in the bath tub ... making a
fort with the sofa cushions. It's kind of freeing. <G>
== But it seems like he either yelling at me saying he HATES
> me - or hitting me. ==
My son came home from school at about the same age, and he got a lot
more comfortable expressing his anger right around that age, too. I
was thankful, actually -- not every moment, of course, because it's
hard to be yelled at, but overall. I listened. If he was hitting me,
I just put myself out of reach -- though usually, if I stayed still
and didn't try to fix things too soon, he wasn't interested in hitting
me. He just really needed to vent, and I tried to learn what I could
from his venting.
I learned a lot about anger and conflict and I empathized with him and
tried to help him get what he wanted whenever I could. I made sure he
knew there was plenty of what he loved around -- my time, favorite
foods, toys and games, etc. I made sure to bring food and drinks so
that he wouldn't melt down from hunger or thirst. If I wasn't sure
how to afford something or how to help him get what he needed, I
explained the situation in simple terms and asked him for ideas. We
started learning to problem-solve together, instead of the top-down
parenting I had been doing before.
But yes, there was some yelling and raging on his part. It was a
release, it was healing for him, it was important that he be heard.
Because he was getting older, he was getting a sense of the bigger
world, and that was difficult for him -- he was a bit fearful of it
all. So the rages were also some of that fear coming out.
He also didn't want to leave the house very often, and still, at 9.5
years old, he prefers to be home, in his comfort zone. But he loves
having friends over. So we do. We just work with it and create
situations that work for everyone. We have a swing that attaches to a
doorway, a mini-tramp, a gym mat, a punching bag -- lots of things to
burn energy on and have fun with at home.
Sometimes he takes things with him when we go out -- his GameBoy, a
favorite toy, these little pieces of home that help him feel
comfortable. Sometimes he gets in the car in his pajamas and gets
dressed in the car once we get to wherever we're going. All of these
things can help with the transition of going somewhere, if he's
willing to go.
When we switched our focus onto we could do to help him, instead of
what was wrong with him, everything fell into place. It takes
creativity and being open to solutions that you might think others
would frown on if they knew. ("Pajamas in the car?!" <G>) Let them
frown. I truly believe that working with your son in these ways will
help him trust you and be at ease in the world as he grows up. That's
worth a lot, and it's been our experience that it's how unschooling
really works well.
Peace,
Amy
Betsy Hill
in Princess Bride) in the recent issue of Time.
(This post actually isn't about Princess Bride.)
She's talking about playing the mom of an autistic kid in her upcoming
movie. I think she's got a good insight here, but she's only going
halfway with it. (Same cultural obstacles many of us have tripped over.)
What she said is:
"As a mother, you give yourself licesnse to be impatient with your child
because they should know better. But in that situation [autistic kid]
you can't afford to because you break the trust you so desperately need."
So I like her getting that trust is desperately needed between parents
and their children. That's not said often enough, I think. And
parental behavior can certainly break that trust. Let me underline that
idea. But I don't like the part at the beginning where she seems to
excuse parental impatience and talks about the idea that kids "should
know better'. If we just dumped that part, then I'd think she expressed
a valuable insight.
Betsy
Pirate King
On 4 Feb, 05:34, Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:
> -=-She was making our house into anadobehouse.-=-
>
> That's not destruction; that's improvement!
>
> Sandra, in New Mexico, who grew up in anadobehouse and now lives in
> a frame house which is not NEARLY as comfy
Sandra, I knew there had to be a connection with earth building
somewhere in this group.
Why now convert your stick frame home into an earth house, like these
people did?
http://www.regenerativedesign.org/ptreyes
** pirate king **
who is right now building an earth house at the weekends...
Sandra Dodd
people did?-=-
I guess you mean "why not"
and the answer would be money, covenants, size of the yard after
adding to...
If we want an adobe house we need to move into one. They're
everywhere around here. <G>
Sandra
dragonfly
> more comfortable expressing his anger right around that age, too. I
> was thankful, actually -- not every moment, of course, because it's
> hard to be yelled at, but overall. I listened.
Yes. My daughter had a very unhappy time in first grade and got
depressed. As we started fixing the situation, her anger emerged. It
wasn't an easy time by any means, but I remember my relief and joy
when that first bit of rage burst out of her. Others around us saw her
"acting out" as a big problem; we saw it as recovery.
df
Ana Dulce
(almost 5) does similar things when he is very very tired. Sometimes
we continue doing things because we are having fun and we don't want
to stop, but actually his body needs to stop and sleep, and when I
don't pay attention to that need, lately we get that ugly and sad
effect sometimes. Whereas if we slide easily into bed when his body
needs to, it doesn not happen.
Ana Dulce
vanessa b
I am very, very new to unschooling (just a few
months!) and I don't know if I can make it work it
either (I have 2 boys, 8 & 6 yrs and a 5year old
girl). I am writing because I recently attended a
non-violent communication workshop held by a woman who
was very experienced with young children and she said
something that really clicked for me .....
She said something like, 'Conflict is an opportunity
to meet each other's needs'. While I can have greater
success identifying and being respectful of my
childrens' needs - I am, though intention, teaching
my children to have respect for the needs of others -
our family as a community and my needs as an
indiviual. This has had a really positive effect upon
my kids' relationships with each other.......The
ability to clearly identify facts, feelings, needs and
requests was very, VERY big for us, especially as I am
still in the early stages of coming out of a very
authoritarian framework. There are ultimate 'No's' -
like 'No, you may not destroy property, hit/hurt,
threaten people etc.... However, in that "no", we can
still say 'yes' to feelings..... and there is whole
heck of alot training that we are in the midst of that
helps with this.......
I can say that non-violent communication training (not
only reading - but actual practice with a certified
trainer) for both my children and me has been so
helpful! If this is something that speaks to you,
maybe you can find a NVC practice group in your area
or maybe you could find a trainer really tuned in to
the world of families with young children to run a
group for you .....
Best of all things to you,
:)
Ness
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
Sandra Dodd
only reading - but actual practice with a certified
trainer) for both my children and me has been so
It puts another overlay of rules between you and your child. New
rules, but still rules.
-=- There are ultimate 'No's' -
like 'No, you may not destroy property, hit/hurt,
threaten people etc.... However, in that "no", we can
still say 'yes' to feelings..... and there is whole
heck of alot training that we are in the midst of that
helps with this.......
-=-
This isn't a good direct road to understanding unschooling.
If a child wants to destroy something, you could find something he
can destroy and say yes. He probably didn't want to destroy
something at all, so you don't need to "say no to destruction," just
help learn to keep him from getting to the point that he wants to
destroy things.
Sandra
vanessa b
understanding
> unschooling.
I say,
Please don't assume that my "direct" road to
understanding unschooling will match your own or that
I am even looking for a "direct" road to the place
where you are.
I can absolutely see the point of what you are saying,
however......
I find that, for myself, as I try to climb out of an
authoritarian, traditional box, I need to use ladders
- the rungs may still be in the box, but they help me
on my way out. It works for me to actively learn
various new patterns of interacting and ways of
thinking about relationship that speak to me (rather
than unconsciously continue with my old motifs). I
need to do this as part of my personal journey .....
If I just jump into "unschooling says 'X', so I must
not do 'Y', than I feel I am just trading one box
for another.
I guess I don't really care if I end up fitting
anyone's label or any particular approach ....
But, I hope that needn't exclude from communities that
I feel an affinity for or sharing the experiences of
my journey........
(Who knows - perhaps someone can use my perspective as
a cautionary tale........ :)
:)
Ness
--- Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote
>
> -=-I can say that non-violent communication training
> (not
> only reading - but actual practice with a certified
> trainer) for both my children and me has been so
> helpful! -=-
>
> It puts another overlay of rules between you and
> your child. New
> rules, but still rules.
>
> -=- There are ultimate 'No's' -
> like 'No, you may not destroy property, hit/hurt,
> threaten people etc.... However, in that "no", we
> can
> still say 'yes' to feelings..... and there is whole
> heck of alot training that we are in the midst of
> that
> helps with this.......
> -=-
>
>
>
> If a child wants to destroy something, you could
> find something he
> can destroy and say yes. He probably didn't want to
> destroy
> something at all, so you don't need to "say no to
> destruction," just
> help learn to keep him from getting to the point
> that he wants to
> destroy things.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/yes
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Robyn L. Coburn
> old. He has really become aggressive and mean. If something doesn't
> go the way he wants it to go he flips out verbally and physically - to
> me, his sister, his friends, etc...>>>>
It is hard to have a child who seems to be angry much of time. Part of it is
being six - it is a developmental age where often these characteristics are
exacerbated. My first suggestion is not to take the attacks personally - he
is not engaging in the action "to show disrespect"; he is most likely just
not able developmentally or emotionally to just calmly say "wow this is
vexing" or "Gosh, I must be feeling thus-and-such emotions because that
happened earlier". I'm 45 and I can't always do this!
I want to suggest that you go and read at Danielle Conger's website
www.organiclearning.org, where she has a number of articles talking about
her boy Sam and her on going process for helping him and still preserving
the safety and serenity of his older sisters and herself. She writes so
clearly about energies meshing.
There are days when I too would love to know exactly when age wise my
respectful treatment of her will turn on the "respectful back switch" in my
kid. I guess my answer is that it doesn't happen all at once.
I once wrote that the development of empathy in a child is like the tide
coming in, gradually the waves get higher up the sand, but we can't consider
the process done and get disappointed when the occasional really big wave is
followed by an apparent retreat.
You will make yourself crazy getting involved in futile "why are you doing
this?" verbalizations in the moment. Often when they are this young, and
certainly when they are in the midst of their meltdown, they have no
capacity, no ability to verbalize the why's. Part of my job has been a
detective - looking at the clues including what I have been doing, well not
"wrongly" so much as not fully attentively. These include getting overly
focused on the computer (she's sleeping right now!), not noticing how long
it has been since I put out food, not realizing that she needs some running
and jumping time, forgeting how early she got up this morning, and recently
pushing her (7.5) to wean before she was truly ready to.
The best time to talk and discover what was bothering her has always been
later on in a quiet moment, especially if it is during some other quiet
activity so it is not confronting. One time we spent about 15 minutes
playing a balancing game jumping around on rocks while I was able to get an
understanding of some events earlier. Another time when I had a kind of
hunch about the weaning, I made sure to get down on the floor with her to
ask her about it. See http://sandradodd.com/truck for some facilitating
communication ideas.
Jayn isn't always able to logically process the emotional events that are
happening to her. She sometimes needs to express herself physically, in
order to become calm enough to speak rationally. Rather than let her destroy
things, I give her something else to push herself against. Often that is me.
I will hold her feet and give her some pressure to push against as she
kicks. When we start this process, often by me putting my hands up in front
of me, she will start very disorganized and wild, but then becomes
increasingly controlled. Then she will say things like "now hold my feet" or
want to sit on my lap and push against me. It works really well when dh
participates as well. We will all three be down on the floor together, and
it evolves into a great wrestle and hug session. Perhaps Sue's son would
benefit from more physical interaction with his dad?
Sometimes I have "allowed destruction". Jayn sometimes threatens to pour out
her drink. In the past I have jumped in to prevent it - but it was because I
didn't want the trouble of cleaning up. One day I decided to let her pour
and take that dumb threat out of the negotiation. She poured out the
milkshake I had made her, and when that happened her face crumpled up and
she cried. This changed the dynamic and we were able to talk about the
things that were bothering her including sympathize with the loss of the
shake. I cleaned up calmly (I have a great spot cleaning machine) and made
her a new shake and all was well. Since then she has done less pouring and I
have learnt that if I give her the chance to change her mind instead of
grabbing the cup in a panic, she will more often decide not to pour, once I
don't give the threat any power over my emotions or reactions. I mentally
characterize it as "I am choosing to be the rational being at this time
while she can't".
I would discourage anyone from putting an exuberant child in school just to
"make him" less rowdy. I would expect rather than expending his negative
energy at school, he will be more likely to come home with it all pent up
from a day of having to control himself, and be even more wild. Or it could
turn inward. Or the school could label him a discipline problem or want to
medicate him. Has the boy seriously asked to go back to school? Does he see
school as better than home? I would work on addressing that issue if it is
true in his eyes.
<<<<All he says is that
> "everybody hates me!"- "you are always so mean to me." I can never
> figure out what exactly it was that I did wrong other than telling him
> that he cannot do something or have something at that particular time.
> >>>>
One of the ideas that Unschooling can help you internalize is saying yes.
Minimize the "cannot" as much as you can. We try to make the default answer
"yes". Is it you saying "can't" or life saying "can't"? Is he so accustomed
to it being "Mom saying no" that he doesn't believe you when it really is
life saying it? (Egs: The sun has to go down; if you fall off the roof you
won't fly; you can only save your game at certain save points.)
Examine your reactions first - why do you want to say no? I still ask myself
that question every time I feel the urge to say no. The good news is that
the urge gets less over time! Go to www.sandradodd.com/yes and read Joyce's
seminal article on the topic.
Children speak in code. When he says these mean sounding things, he is not
really believing the literal truth of them - this is where "don't take it
personally" comes in. What he is expressing might be code for something like
"I have no power" or "I have a resentment" or "I'm lonely" or "I'm hungry"
or "I'm scared of my own strong feelings" or "I'm disappointed".
One of the most useful things I do is keep small posters of useful sayings
and strategies taped where I see them a lot. I guess I would be a visual
learner! These include quotes by the people I admire on these lists, and the
question "What loving action can I take?" which is to remind me to respond
lovingly to Jayn's angry outbursts. Often a hug is the first thing that she
needs, even though it is the last thing I feel like - yet it helps me too
(not all kids want to be hugged when mad, but Jayn often does). I have a
list that is taped to my computer of my/our current parenting growth
points - the things I need to work on at the moment. This is it:
*Get up at once and not say any version of "Wait a minute".
*Use only positive words - "When X then Y"....which ties in to:
*Start the sentence with "I will" NOT "I can't" (or "you can't").
*Agree to nurse immediately without complaint.
*Smile, or at least shrug, when something spills. [My face was expressing
more annoyance than I ever felt at accidents - betraying my good
intentions - so I got proactive instead.]
*Clean up with joy. [Again I would get distracted and my body language would
express impatience that I didn't know I was feeling].
*Play dolls.
*If Jayn hits or kicks, give her a hug.
That is my list, my personal scripts. I would encourage people to develop
their own scripts, focusing on the positive changes that they want to make
*in themselves* rather than trying to change the other person, in this case
their child.
A wonderful publication is Naomi Aldort's recent book "Raising Our Children,
Raising Ourselves". One of the themes is empowering children. She also has a
very helpful and specific strategy for helping kids in meltdown called
"Communication S.A.L.V.E." She is an Unschooler herself which helps a lot.
Most parenting books have school success as one of the major criteria of
happiness, so it is nice to have a book without that paradigm clouding the
scenery.
Finally many parents of energetic kids have found that a good martial arts
program has been really helpful and empowering for them. It seems ironic
that the best solution for a child who is using disruption as a tool for
gaining power is empowerment, but there it is. This is what works according
to the numerous stories here in the archives and on other lists - discerning
the true need and helping the child fulfil it positively.
Robyn L. Coburn
Sandra Dodd
Please don't assume that my "direct" road to
understanding unschooling will match your own or that
I am even looking for a "direct" road to the place
where you are.
It's fine for you to move toward unschooling indirectly, but it's not
fine for the recommendation to appear on this list that an indirect
route might be good.
-=-
But, I hope that needn't exclude from communities that
I feel an affinity for or sharing the experiences of
my journey........-=-
If you're not there yet, you can only share the experience of getting
to NVC. There are lists to discuss that.
Recommending that other new unschoolers go there instead of to
articles on deschooling is recommending a detour to them.
Lots of new unschooling moms might need other things. Some might
need al-Anon or recovery from fundamentalism. But that's not a
recommendation to make in a blanket way.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
fine for the recommendation to appear on this list that an indirect
route might be good.
-=-
I'm responding to my own self.
It IS fine for the recommendation to appear on this list
It's not find for it to appear uncommented on, uncontested.
Sandra
vanessa b
Thank you. I am happy to be one of many voices -
As for "good" vs "bad", I am also happy to leave those
judgements to those who prefer to think in those
terms.......
Best,
Vanessa
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Sandra Dodd
judgements to those who prefer to think in those
Better vs. worse, though, in terms of what moves a person closer to
unschooling, though, is the purpose of this list.
Sandra
arcarpenter
On Mar 14, 12:22 pm, vanessa b <nessa_at_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
==
> I find that, for myself, as I try to climb out of an
> authoritarian, traditional box, I need to use ladders
> - the rungs may still be in the box, but they help me
> on my way out.==
What Sandra's offering is a "get out of the box free" card. <grin> It
is worth considering, "Can I just say yes?" Many of us don't consider
that until someone else -- like someone on this list -- brings it to
our attention.
Finding something that a child *can* destroy is a good example -- it's
a way to get to the heart of the matter quickly. If the child really
wants the experience of destroying something, that can probably be
arranged with an old box or breaking eggs in the sink. But if the
child is being destructive because they are angry, then is there a way
you can help with that? Are they angry because nobody is helping them
get what they need?
I think the tools and principles that you are learning and thinking
about in NVC could be very helpful for getting to underlying needs. I
haven't taken the training -- I've just read about it and I have
incorporated some of the principles and techniques.
But for me the priority is, "How is the relationship with my kids?"
"Relationship" has a more fluid, flexible feel than "NVC techniques,"
so I try to keep in tune with "relationship" first.
If NVC principles are helping the relationship, then great. But if my
child doesn't want to use those techniques or hear me use them, I'm
going to defer to him, to his needs, to what he prefers, rather than
sticking to what the NVC guidebook said. And if it seems like NVC
is saying "validate the needs but still say no," then that really
doesn't help the relationship much at all.
What I've seen of NVC has been about problem-solving -- identify the
needs, listen carefully, *and* come up with a win/win solution. But
it does seem that sometimes people don't work to find the solution --
they think they've done enough if they are listening and validating.
And sometimes they do even that with expectations -- "I'm validating,
so you should be happy about that." <g> You can hear it in the tone of
their voice -- heck *I've* used that tone of voice, and I didn't like
it when I did.
So yes, for unschooling and for your relationship, finding your way to
yes and to empowered kids who can problem-solve *with* you is better.
If NVC is helping you get there, great. If not, you really can just
leave the box. <g>
Peace,
Amy
vanessa b
I know that following my heart and my own meandering
path is what brings me closer to unschooling.... it
it what I need and what works for me.
And, of course, you are right. If someone else tried
to follow my path rather their own, they could find
themselves completely lost.
Thank you for caring enough to clarify and having this
mini-discussion with me.
Amy wrote a response to the original post that I found
very helpful & I look forward to seeing what others
have say as I feel I am in a similar place with my
kids.
:)
Ness
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vanessa b
So yes, for unschooling and for your relationship,
finding your way to
yes and to empowered kids who can problem-solve *with*
you is better.
If NVC is helping you get there, great. If not, you
really can just
leave the box. <g>
I say:
Total agreement & I couldn't have said it better
myself.
The truth is, I felt very defensive about Sandra's
emails because I didn't feel that my point of view was
heard, or if heard, invalidated. I was triggered by
my choices being labeled as bad / worse, etc. Another
point in NVC awareness is to assume positive intent
when you feel "sparked" by someone else's comments.
Give yourself a moment with whatever comes up, then
really try to hear what the other person is saying. I
was able to chill out & learn from her. What I took
away from what she wrote was that I could choose to
just let go & that would be the most direct path
unschooling. What I tried to communicate was that I'm
not there yet & need to get there in my own way.
So, I don't plan to become an NVC robot, but that
perspective helps me to come from a healthier place,
with my kids, my friends, and Sandra, too. Another
rung on the ladder until I'm ready to hop out of the
box! :)
:)
Vanessa
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Hi,
I would also like to add that boy play with a 6 year old can be very
different from girl play with an 8 year old. Things my very easily
frustrated, now 10 year old son likes to do. (he is sandwiched by
sisters 12,and 7). All types of ball games, soccer, basketball,
baseball, catch. A favorite we play is tennis racket baseball, we use
a tennis ball and racket and play like baseball. The racket makes for
more success hitting. I avoid most crafts with my son still, they just
do not work for him most of the time. Legos with me on the floor,
build, destroy, build again, water balloons, again we hit them with
the tennis racket. FUN. Bathtub with food dye, playdough. We play tag,
hide and seek, chase all the time. All of these activities are sensory
stimulating, enjoyable, and things my son and I do together. Digging
holes in the yard, playing in mud with a shovel with trucks. I had 1
friend who left her yard totally open to her boys for construction,
they dug, and moved earth for 5 years, all over the place with an
extensive tonka collection.
Check out the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. It really helps
families see patterns and triggers. Avoid things that trigger the
meltdown experience as much as you can. And remember hugs and
lightheartedness go a very very long way with the little ones and the
not so little ones too. Some parents can get very serious and heavy
about the negative stuff, which can bring us down from the joyfulness
of being with young children.
Mary
Maximom
I am new to this board. However, I certainly know that I am in need of
help! We have been homeschooling a year and my daughter was takened
out of school January 2006. It has been a rewarding year and an
overwhelming year. My daughter is 8 years old and we are still trying
out new things.
I did not deschool her, but tried schooling at home because that is
what I thought she needed. I got frustrated with her and she with me.
I tried to back off a little and let her do her own thing, but I had a
problem of trusting her. I don't think I let her fully be in control.
This year I tried to unschool, but felt I had no control. However, my
daughter surprises me time after time. She taught herself sign
language because she wanted to and she learned quickly. She takes the
initiative to start what she calls "Welcome to the Speech", which she
is sort of a master of ceremonies. She asks each family member to make
a speech about something important or she brings up a topic.
She was trying to teach herself the guitar and she even wrote some
songs. Now, it seems as though she wants to watch so much tv which I
am trying to wean her and my son (16) from. I just think it takes up
too much of our time. I am doing the same for myself as well.
Now when I panic, I try to"teach" or ask her to do something that
resorts back to being schooled. I get bored somedays and right now I
am tired out. She has to have an annual exam in our state of North
Carolina. I try not to get her upset, but somedays I am tempted to put
her back in school. She on the other hand objects. I really don't
want to, but I wonder sometimes if I am damaging her or what.
My daughter is a sweet kid, but I don't know if it is enough with the
results I am getting and I am trying not to push her. I was so afraid
last year that I gave her a test only after 3 months of homeschooling.
I was suppose to wait until we had homeschooled a year.
So now this week and last week, I have tried to go back and deschool.
Am I too late or should I go ahead now? I know she and I need it!
Thanks,
Maximom
Sandra Dodd
http://sandradodd.com/tv
I recommend reading those and several links from them before doing or
deciding anything else at all.
Sandra
Gen...@aol.com
>
> Now when I panic, I try to"teach" or ask her to do something that
> resorts back to being schooled. I get bored somedays and right now I
> am tired out. She has to have an annual exam in our state of North
> Carolina. I try not to get her upset, but somedays I am tempted to put
> her back in school. <<<<<<<<<
Don't worry about the NC testing. In NC we have to test yearly and
keep the scores onhand at our homeschool. But the law does not say
what age to grade test a child must take, you can do it in your home,
administered by you. There is no threshold to meet, no pass or fail.
So RELAX, let the test go. Don't worry about it. Sometime this year
have her take a test that meets the state requirements, file it away
for a year. Don't look at the results, don't pressure her or
yourself. Make it just a game. A hoop you have to jump through to
keep homeschooling. But don't place any value on it. If you want
there is a yahoo group for NCunschoolers. We have a large active
group of unschoolers here in NC and we are happy to answer any of your
questions.
:-)
Pam G
Hm...@aol.com
<<She has to have an annual exam in our state of North
Carolina.>>
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Susan
> resorts back to being schooled. I get bored somedays and right now I
> am tired out. She has to have an annual exam in our state of North
> Carolina. I try not to get her upset, but somedays I am tempted to put
> her back in school. She on the other hand objects. I really don't
> want to, but I wonder sometimes if I am damaging her or what.
>
> My daughter is a sweet kid, but I don't know if it is enough with the
> results I am getting and I am trying not to push her. I was so afraid
> last year that I gave her a test only after 3 months of homeschooling.
> I was suppose to wait until we had homeschooled a year.
If there is one thing I've learned from this board and other great
resources it's this: unschooling is about trust. Sometimes it's easy
to trust that our kids will learn what they need when they need it but
it's very hard for us parents to trust ourselves or to give up the
traditional notions of what education is suppose to look like. Perhaps
you could use some deschooling yourself? Panicking is a sign that
you're still carrying around ideas that need to be examined and let
go.
I know that I've had to take unschooling in small steps. Not the
actual doing it part, but the internal understanding of it - the
letting go of all those ideas about what my children must be doing and
need to learn, etc. I wasn't forcing anything on them, but inside I
still questioned everything and worried too darn much. I read a lot of
John Holt and I started looking for other unschoolers I could learn
from.
Here in Virginia we have to provide annual "evidence of progress"
which can be a test or a portfolio. We use a test because it's the
fastest way to jump through the hoop and get on with our lives. I was
very nervous about my daughter's first test - and she was just in
Kindergarten! It strikes me now as ridiculous to have stressed out
about a kindergarten level test.
Some parents - even homeschoolers - love to trot out test scores as
proof of how great their kids are doing. I don't think tests are
substantial proof of anything - they don't show what my kids are
really learning. Tests are narrow and limited - they involve only the
specific topics covered in a specific grade and even then, it's just
the stuff that can be measured. However, we aren't limiting ourselves
to learning only those things that can be assessed with a multiple
choice question and we don't have grade levels in our house.
IMO, tests are generally a poor reflection of true intelligence and
skill. However, we spend a few hours on one day doing the test and
then we're done with it for another year. All I really care about is
whether their scores are enough to satisfy the state so that we can
keep homeschooling and so far it's been very easy to meet their
requirements. It sounds like NC is similar so I wouldn't waste time or
energy worrying about it!
-- Susan
Wanda Boyd
>
> Now when I panic, I try to"teach" or ask her to do something that
> resorts back to being schooled. I get bored somedays and right now I
> am tired out. She has to have an annual exam in our state of North
> Carolina. I try not to get her upset, but somedays I am tempted to put
> her back in school. �<<<<<<<<<
Don't worry about the NC testing. In NC we have to test yearly and
keep the scores onhand at our homeschool. But the law does not say
what age to grade test a child must take, you can do it in your home,
administered by you. There is no threshold to meet, no pass or fail.
So RELAX, let the test go. Don't worry about it. Sometime this year
have her take a test that meets the state requirements, file it away
for a year. Don't look at the results, don't pressure her or
yourself. Make it just a game. A hoop you have to jump through to
keep homeschooling. But don't place any value on it. If you want
there is a yahoo group for NCunschoolers. We have a large active
group of unschoolers here in NC and we are happy to answer any of your
questions.
:-)
Pam G
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