Here's Sandra's page about Video Games http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
Tons of reading there to reassure and excite you about video games.
My daughter went from not reading to reading aloud all kinds of complicated
words from many sources over about two years. She is now 11 and there has
never been a moment of stress or worry over her reading except when Granny
wanted to keep asking her if she was reading yet whenever she called.
Result: Jayn refuses to converse with Granny, even though she is now
reading.
Here's a piece of writing that may help with your serenity over reading.
It's an older article, but I added it to my blog today.
http://robyncoburn.blogspot.com/2010/11/when-jayn-reads-vintage-article.html
Robyn L. Coburn
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
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Years' worth of the greatest hits of insight, experience and
suggestions, starting here:
http://sandradodd.com/videogames
http://sandradodd.com/tv
--
I sure I am forgeting some!
Video games are chuck full of learning. Embrace it.
My son has read 5 Zelda manga style books in one day!
My son also owns plush toys related to video games that he
spends hours playing with his 4 yr old sister.
Alex Polikowsky
Here's Sandra's page about Video Games http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
Tons of reading there to reassure and excite you about video games.
My daughter went from not reading to reading aloud all kinds of complicated
words from many sources over about two years. She is now 11 and there has
never been a moment of stress or worry over her reading except when Granny
wanted to keep asking her if she was reading yet whenever she called.
Result: Jayn refuses to converse with Granny, even though she is now
reading.
Here's a piece of writing that may help with your serenity over reading.
It's an older article, but I added it to my blog today.
http://robyncoburn.blogspot.com/2010/11/when-jayn-reads-vintage-article.html Robyn L. Coburn www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com www.iggyjingles.blogspot.comwww.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com>> Hi - My son is 7 1/2 years old. He got Wii for Christmas last year.>> Since then, that is all he wants to do. He plays it all day long.>> Now that Christmas is upon us again, we are getting nervous. A fellow>> homeschooler told us it may take a year to get it out of his system.>> He is not reading, yet, so this makes me more nervous. Any insight/>> experience/suggestions?>> Thank you>> Consie>
>>>>It sounds like you want to tell him no more video games. It sounds like that's what you want to justify.<<<<<
>>>> It was easy when Simon and Linnaea were younger to not see the cycle of winter versus summer activities, of any kind of cycle of activity. <<<<
>>>What would you do to make it all better?<<<
>>>> Because as soon as you start talking about how the games are taking over his life and how you wish he'd do more things with you or how you don't understand how he doesn't want to play with other people as much as he used to, you are changing how much he believes he's going to continue to be allowed to play on the Wii. <<<<
I don't mention my concerns to him. Thank you for reminding me of this, too!! It is just that he is so young, and a large percentage of his life now has been in front of a tv screen, and I don't see an end soon. I love to play with him, and the bonding we have that I know all the characters and the games. I just don't want to do damage to his brain. Those articles I have read don't seem to address this concern of long term, extended use.
If I could just relax in knowing that I am not doing any damage to his growing brain, I would enjoy it even more.
>>>Except it is not like vitamins or antibiotics<<
.>>your local unschooling group or list will be able to help you with strategies to do your reporting more painlessly. <<<
In unschooling everything is intertwined, all knowledge is connected, and everything counts.
What about when you discover your 10 year old playing a favorite game and crying because he has played so many games and not won a single one that session?
Jacquie
My son was encouraged to read by playing video games so he could read what the game had to say!Jacquie
-=-He is almost 8. In our state we have to do standardized test that
have to be given by the teacher. If he can not read, he can not take
a test. -=-
It's vital for you to connect with other unschoolers in your state--
not through this international discussion list, but directly, within
your state.
Be careful of any thought or use of "we have to".
http://sandradodd.com/haveto (" In our state we have to do
standardized test")
This list is to help people discuss and understand unschooling, it's
not for test preparation.
If your priority isn't unschooling that's fine too, but the legalities
and technicalities of regions or nations aren't the subject or purpose
of this list. There are others unschooling in your area, I'm sure,
and if you're not in contact with them, please establish that as soon
as you can.
http://sandradodd.com/world might have a link if you don't already
have one.
Sandra
-=-The analogy that I was making was that I am concerned "some are
good, more is not better". So, my concern should not be minimized by
saying that my concern does not exist. Some may be good and mor may
not be better, may be true about video games. The jury is still
out! I think everyone believes that it changes the brain. But, is
that for the good or for the worse when it is to the extreme?
-=-For my unschooled child, I have learned to validate his feelings
without promoting his fears. This is what I was hoping to find here. -
=-
Except it's not like vitamins or antibiotics. Your analogy did not
work.
Your "concern" and claim of being scientific and your insistence that
you are NOT wanting to limit your son (quote below) show confusion on
your part, which is fine. Insisting that we're wrong and you're
calmly examining an idea, though, shows even more confusion.
Confusion is fine, but it's good to realize you're confused and admit
it rather than thrash around at the people who are trying to point it
out.
---------------------------------------------
>>>>It sounds like you want to tell him no more video games. It
sounds like that's what you want to justify.<<<<<
Oh, my, my!! That could not be further from the truth. What I want
if your you all to tell me that everything is going to be OK!!! LOL
---------------------------------------------
When experienced unschoolers with older children are freelly
volunteering to read your questions and concerns and respond at length
with ideas they know could help you, if you would thoughtfully
consider them, "LOL" is not any part of a thoughtful or courteous
response.
-=-What I want ...-=-
-=- This is what I was hoping to find here. -=-
If you know what you want and what you're hoping to find, why do you
need this list at all?
You pictured the way you wanted the list to be, and you're arguing to
try to make us into your vision.
You pictured the way you wanted unschooling to be, and the way you
wanted your son to be, and you're trying to get us to agree that
unschooling, video gaming and your son should change.
We're trying to say that unschooling, video gaming and your son are
fine; YOU need to see the world (and unschooling, natural learning,
choices, enjoyment, time, energy, health, video games, your son and
this list) in a different way.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Until a mom changes, she can't begin to see unschooling clearly at all.
Until the parent changes, unschooling can't begin to work.
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
Had you read through the video game link that several people sent you
("through" meaning following the links and reading all those pages),
you would have felt better sooner. The questions you have are
discussed a couple of times a year (at least) and the best of many
years' worth of answers (since before your son was born) are collected
there.
The scientific thing to do would be to observe and test, not to trust
or have faith in any book or idea or philosophy, but to look
thoughtfully with all that you know from direct knowledge.
"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
Sandra
If that were your priority, you probably COULD do that every day,
couldn't you?
"Can't" might mean something particular that you didn't clarify.
But if you did it every day, it wouldn't continue to be "a blast"
forever.
http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics
http://sandradodd.com/choices
You chose to take him to a park one day.
Other days, you haven't chosen to do that.
If you see the choices you make, you'll see more clearly than if you
say "can't do."
Sandra
Would you feel afraid if all he wanted to do was read books?
Or play basketball?
Alex Polikowsky
-=-Would you feel afraid if all he wanted to do was read books?
Or play basketball?-=-
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
How do you "get your child" to be more musical or more active or more
cerebral or to be a better dancer?
Perhaps you don't try to do that at all.
Sandra
I'm sure you didn't read it all, because it seems you've been writing
and posting since you first asked, and the quality and direction of
your questions shows no indication that you read anything there, which
is why I wrote "Had you read through the video game link that several
people sent you ("through" meaning following the links and reading all
those pages), you would have felt better sooner. The questions you
have are discussed a couple of times a year (at least) and the best of
many years' worth of answers (since before your son was born) are
collected there."
-=-I thought I read that entire link on video games. I did not see
anywhere that a child was playing games all day every day for this
length of time. If I missed a link, please let me know. It did not
make me feel better. -=-
"That entire link" was a page with links to several articles and to
tons of stories by unschoolers and gamers themselves. If you scanned
it for a story of a child playing games all day every day, perhaps you
should have read what people suggested you read instead of attempting
to use it to prove you were right and we were wrong.
If you want to limit your child's video games, do it.
If you want to have the same good results unschoolers write about
every day, freely, generously and honestly, then you will need to stop
wanting to limit.
If you don't want to stop limiting, then don't.
If you don't want to stop limiting, you will not have the same good
results other families have had.
If you want people to re-write everything they know from scratch,
that's not a good use of their time or yours, as so much is linked
from this page. Do not "read the link." Follow all of the links on
that page, and read thoughtfully and openly. Then try some of those
ideas, wait a while, watch what happens. The read some more, try a
little more, and wait a while, and watch.
What you're missing is having the desire to learn.
Unschooling doesn't work without the desire to learn.
http://sandradodd.com/videogames
If you want to skip all the outside articles, that's fine. Here's
what's by unschoolers:
http://sandradodd.com/game/tales
http://sandradodd.com/game/gamecube
http://zajosa.blogspot.com/2008/04/problem-when-parents-think-childs.html
http://sandradodd.com/game/reading
http://sandradodd.com/game/cheats
http://sandradodd.com/game/nintendogold
http://www.lessontutor.com/kd3.html
Kathy Ward's dyslexia link isn't working; I'm waiting for her to send
me that article, and it will be up again someday. Her old site host
folded.
http://sandradodd.com/videogames
Sandra
So all the time people took off to answer and giv you links
and try to help you see it diferently equals public
humiliation???
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't understand why people that think this list is about
chewing up others would stay just to point out to other
posters that this is a bad place.
If you don't like it then leave. Why are they still here?
I have been on a list where some were proud to invited
people to leave Sandra's list and happy to spout how
horrible she is together with other posters that post in her
list.
I have learned so much from the discussions in Sandra's list
and this list.
I remember writing here years ago ( but not long ago) and
having it challenged.
I learned so much from it. Yes it was unconfortable for a
second or until I thought about what I wrote and what they
your pointing out to me.
It has made me a better mother, unschooler , spouse and
writer.
People here are trying to help you see different and they
know it is hard sometimes. They are takingtme out of their
families and life ( Sandra is traveling in India) to try to
help you see how unschooling and video games work.
Alex Polikowsky
----- Original Message -----From: Sandra DoddSent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 8:17 PMSubject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Video Games
I have absolutely no fear that anything that inspires this much passion, this much creativity and makes her laugh this much can be in any way harmful.
I really want some success stories. I don't want to be told that I am just overly fearful. ie."alcoholic.. it's a weird fear, it feels pulled out of a hat of fears" I was, by the way, just making another analogy of a different type of addition.
> If you do looking at him playing on the Wii with the eyes of someone
> watching an addict get their fix it will be very hard for you to
> reach out and enjoy what he's doing.
And no one here can prove without a doubt that video games aren't
addictive to some people.
What people here can do is report from their own personal experience
that they haven't seen any long term effects that resemble addiction.
They can describe how their kids have immersed themselves in games and
discuss the factors that are different from addiction and why. They
can tell stories of when and how their kids learned to read and what
effect that's had on their lives. They can tell stories of how their
kids preferred staying home and how they supported that while making
their kids lives rich and helped them when there were times trips out
were necessary.
People here can reassure other parents, based on experience and
similar stories, that they believe a poster's kids will be fine too.
But we can't know.
Yes, that's scary. This isn't school where there's one right way
leading to one right answer. It's real life where uncertainty is part
of every problem.
But, schools and conventional parenting can't offer guarantees either
-- though they make it sound like they do! No one can say anyone's
kids will be fine too. They can point at the successes. They can blame
the failures on other factors (eg, the kids or the parents are bad).
But not even conventional parents can guarantee that another's kids
will be fine.
What I can say is that I have yet to see someone who understands
unschooling (as it's discussed here) say that unschooling failed their
kids. Maybe they're afraid to speak up. How many people are willing to
have past failures they can't fix analyzed in public? Maybe they've
left to find something that will work for them and have no interest in
coming back to say why unschooling didn't work for their kids.
People should enter into unschooling with wide open eyes. They should
unschool because they want the benefits of unschooling and be willing
to work on themselves to make it work and work to get their fears out
of the way. But there are no guarantees. The success of unschooling is
all up to the parent who puts it into practice and how well she or he
taps the resources available to help them figure out ways to do better.
Parents who are questioning whether what they see in their child is
good or not can read the stories. They can listen to and then turn
over the discussion of the what and how and why people believe
unschooling works. They can observe their own children through the
lens of unschooling to see if their behavior looks different, eg, do
they now see the joy, engagement, the reaching out for more to feed an
interest rather than zombielike behaviors.
Then parents need to decide for themselves if the benefits of
unschooling are worth working through their fears for.
All we can do is provide the ideas and similar experiences in homes
where radical unschooling is being practiced. What a parent does with
those ideas, how they decide to change, what work they decide to do on
their fears, that's all up to them.
Joyce
Analogies don't make just one connection. Analogies suggest many
connections. And it's difficult to think clearly about one idea when
an analogy is suggesting more. If video games are likened to drugs and
playing to addiction because surface behavior looks similar then it
will be difficult to not see more ties to addiction and very very easy
to dismiss the aspects that point away and don't support the analogy.
Is a guitar like antibiotics where a little is good and too much is
bad? What infection would a guitar be a cure for? Is interest being
likened to an infection that needs cured? And if a a child isn't
infected with interest and chooses to play the guitar anyway what
would be the negative effect? That a future infection of guitar
interest would be immune to guitar playing?
Are books like heroin? If a child reads a lot would time be the only
factor that would suggest addiction or overdose?
So what factors *other than* time spent would suggest addiction? What
factors would point away from addiction?
Analogies can help someone make a big leap when trying to understand
something new. Analogies can also overlay images and feelings that
aren't part of the new thing and muddy the understanding.
Joyce
>>
>> If you do looking at him playing on the Wii with the eyes of
>> someone watching an addict get their fix it will be very hard for
>> you to reach out and enjoy what he's doing.
>
> And no one here can prove without a doubt that video games aren't
> addictive to some people.
Is going back through to clear out my inbox and I'd forgotten she'd
come out and directly said she wanted proof. This is the quote that
should lead into what I said!
> What I want if your you all to tell me that everything is going to
> be OK!!! LOL I want someone to come out and say they have a child
> who is now a successful <fill in blank> and that their child spent
> 14 hours a day watching video games for < blank.."alot of" > years.
> I am a scientist, so my brain needs solid evidence, not conjectures,
> if you know what I mean.
Joyce
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Suggestion: Try not to be angry.
LOTS of people have the right to try to grill a kid.
You have the right to attempt to prevent it.
You also have the power to learn to blow it off and not care, in those
few times you're not right at hand to divert the conversation.
Sandra
We kept all the sharp knives in a single drawer, when they were old
enough to reach drawers. Vegetable peelers, ice pick--anything sharp
went in that drawer, and that was the "sharp things" drawer.
When Kirby was grown and moved into an apartment with a roommate and
they were arranging the kitchen, he asked which drawer was going to be
for sharp things. That's when he discovered that not every home has a
drawer just for sharp things. :-)
For parking lots and streets, I would say "Hold on to something!" and
they would hold someone's hand or grab a strap on my backpack or
diaper bag, or the cart if there was a cart. It wasn't "a rule" to
hold my hand, but if my hands weren't already holding a baby, those
were available. They had a choice of what to hold on to, but not
whether to hold on to something. If someone had tried to opt out of
holding on to something, that's the thing (that child) I would have
chose to hold on to. ;-)
Sandra
Usha, a lovely book on a different approach to safety is "The Continuum Concept" by Jean Liedloff. Many La Leche leaders know about this book (that's where i heard about it). Instead of warning and causing fear, she advocates teaching safe procedure from a very early age. She bases this theory on various indigenous tribes and their approach to childhood.
Instead of buying baby gates, I taught my children to negotiate stairs as soon as they could crawl. I taught my children early to use sharp knives, and by the time they were three they were cutting the vegetables for meals and monkey platters. All three, now 17, 15, and 10, have all of their body parts (including fingers).
Of course, in addition to teaching skills, constant calm, loving supervision is key. The best kind of safety is awareness and competence.
Debi
On Nov 17, 2010, Usha T. <ush...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
That said, I appreciate what you said about choice and it brought up
some new questions for me. If not explicitly warning children about
things how do you help them stay safe and avoid dangers? Keeping in
mind that all of my children are very young (5, 3, and 1) how do you
deal with things like sharp knives, walking in parking lots/streets
etc. I have always felt that by avoiding arbitrary rules they are
more likely to respect rules when they are provided. My children
understand that certain things are "safety rules", like wearing seat
belts/helmets, staying out of the kitchen when there is something hot
being carried around, or not entering a street without an adult. How
do some of you deal with these things?
(snip)
You describe it as "not fully unschooling" then talk about school,. But it's
either unschooling or not. (Like pregnant or not - there might be only
recently pregnant, but you don't get to be pregnant part of the day then not
pregnant when it suits you because you want to go out for cocktails another
day). If you don't want to unschool, then don't. But please, don't call what
you are doing "unschooling". You are still wearing the school glasses - you
can't even begin to know the difference inside yourself and your kids and
family when school is gone.
Your son is going to school. So every day he is learning to follow rules
that are designed for numerous purposes including keeping the school
functioning, making it easier for the teacher to manage the classroom and in
some cases entirely for the purpose of teaching children that rules must be
followed.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is learning that the will and
judgment of other people should be more important than his own experiences
and will and judgment.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is learning that information being
presented by other people is more useful and important and correct than
information that he can discover through his own experiences.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is being molded into the mindset
that someone has the correct answers, that there should be only one correct
answer, that his interests and passions are less important than what someone
else wants to teach him.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is being indoctrinated with the
belief that school is necessary, he will learn best only if he is taught,
and that other people are responsible for his learning successes.
And you are bringing school home, aren't you?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Usha T." <ush...@gmail.com>
To: "UnschoolingDiscussion" <unschoolin...@googlegroups.com>
I almost feel like it doesn't matter what we would say to you here, because
it is all in the context of your school choices. Your child is in school
and
you do curriculum at home. I'm happy that you find what we say helpful to
your parenting, but eventually school will trump parenting. That's part of
the insidious nature of it. The very first time you son wants to do
something other than homework and you insist on homework first - school
just
trumped parenting.
You describe it as "not fully unschooling" then talk about school. But it's
either unschooling or not. (Like pregnant or not - there might be only
recently pregnant, but you don't get to be pregnant part of the day then
not
pregnant when it suits you because you want to go out for cocktails that
evening, then oh yeah pregnant again in the morning).
If you don't want to unschool, then don't. But please, don't call what
you are doing unschooling.
You are still wearing the school-colored glasses - you can't even begin to
know the difference inside yourself and your kids and
family until school is gone from your home and your life. There can be very
little deschooling while you are still schooling.
Your son is going to school. So every day he is learning to follow rules
(or get around rules)
that are designed for numerous purposes including keeping the school
functioning, making it easier for the teacher to manage the classroom and
in
some cases entirely for the purpose of teaching children that rules must be
followed.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is learning that information
being
presented by other people is more useful and important and correct than
information that he can discover through his own experiences.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is being molded into the mindset
that someone else has the correct answers, that there should be only one
There are lots of people reading each post, though, and everyone's at
a different point in their understanding. Even people who have been
unschooling a long time are still working out various bits and parts
of rough spots in their unschooling ideas. So it's good to let the
ideas go once you've put them on the table.
Just because I make the playdough and put it out doesn't mean I get to
tell everyone exactly what to make of it. :-)
It's a discussion, not a counselling session. So we WILL get off the
point, and look at "the wrong" details sometimes. The detail one
person thinks is most important might not be what another person
notices or wants to examine.
Sandra
**********************************
Your son is going to school. So every day he is learning to follow
rules that are designed for numerous purposes including keeping the
school functioning, making it easier for the teacher to manage the
classroom and in some cases entirely for the purpose of teaching
children that rules must be followed.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is learning that the will
and judgment of other people should be more important than his own
experiences and will and judgment.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is learning that information
being presented by other people is more useful and important and
correct than information that he can discover through his own
experiences.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is being molded into the
mindset that someone has the correct answers, that there should be
only one correct answer, that his interests and passions are less
important than what someone else wants to teach him.
Your son is going to school. Every day he is being indoctrinated with
the belief that school is necessary, he will learn best only if he is
taught, and that other people are responsible for his learning
successes.
***************************************
Holly seriously considered going to school when she was 9th and 10th
grade age. She didn't, but if she had gone, she wouldn't have learned
ANY of those things. She wouldn't have been molded or indoctrinated.
She would have known at every moment that she could go home and never
go to school again. Lots of unschoolers' kids have tried school and
come back. Some tried school and stayed, but they knew they were
there by choice, and that makes a huge difference.
I went to school (including college) from the late '50s to the early
'70s. I never once thought the information being presented was more
useful or important or correct than what I knew directly or had read
elsewhere. I knew there was not only one correct answer; I was nine
when I started pointing out mistakes in textbooks and worksheets.
It's true I thought others had taught me things that I could easily
have learned otherwise, but just as often, I knew they were "proud of
me" and taking credit for things I learned from TV and magazines and
kids' books and conversations on the playground.
And this thing, I learned at home and at church: "...that the will
and judgment of other people should be more important than his own
experiences and will and judgment."
But what does that have to do with video games?
Even "a school kid" might get to play all the video games he wants, if
his parents let him do that. If he plays video games all the time
he's not in school, that's still going to be more video games than a
lot of families allow who are unschooling or homeschooling or having
their kids home for the summer.
Sandra
Sandra
The thread was "Choice". That's what I was speaking to. I've spoken about
video games a lot in the past, and it looked like it was being well
canvassed this time by many posters.
The new thread was partly about rules. I noticed something in the posts I
thought worth challenging. Yes I expressed strongly held beliefs, strongly.
Here is a person who is using the jargon of unschooling (like "deschooling")
while still using curriculum at home, and having her child in school. In
school when he is tiny and young, not a teenager like Holly was, not even
nine.
How many times in the past have we talked about how this list doesn't exist
to support people in "unschooling" on the weekends and after school?
I know that unschooled kids sometimes choose school, and sometimes thrive
and sometimes leave swiftly. I didn't get the impression that this 5yo child
isn't making his choice to check out school for his own reasons, though.
(Maybe his is.) However his parent is doing curriculum at home as well as
sending him to charter school part time, and still wanting to call herself
"not a full" unschooler, but still an almost unschooler. I think it's going
in the opposite direction of her own ideals as she has expressed them. She
wants her husband to "deschool", but how can that truly happen with school
still in their lives? That kind of philosophical inconsistency can set up a
lot of emotional stress.
How many people have said in later years variations of "I wish I had
unschooled from the beginning"?
How many people have said, "I wish I had pulled him/her out sooner"? No-one
has ever said, "I wish I'd waited longer."
How many times have you said, Sandra, "Every day still in school is another
day from which he has to deschool"?
I wanted to express the idea that this mom is making choices, in having
school in her son's young life, in her whole family's life, that have
repercussions and negative effects that she may not be considering,
especially if her goal and desire and philosophical alignment is with
unschooling. I want to point out some possibly harsh truths about possible
school damage. These ideas I listed are all reasons many of us did not put
our 5 year old in school or do school at home with our 5 year olds - or
renounced school and school-at-home once we learned about unschooling.
School damage is a real phenomenon that this list has talked about often. I
had a lot of great experiences in school myself, definitely better than
home, but that doesn't mean I can't see the damage school did to me, and the
kinds of ways school can damage the very young. The definition we use on
this list of "deschool" is "heal from school damage". Folks here usually
encourage people to leave school and turn towards unschooling.
He's 5. IF you want the FULL benefits of unschooling, pull him out of school
and throw away your curriculum.
--
Lots.
http://sandradodd.com/ifonly
-=-How many people have said, "I wish I had pulled him/her out
sooner"? No-one has ever said, "I wish I'd waited longer."-=-
Everyone in the link before.
-=-How many times have you said, Sandra, "Every day still in school is
another day from which he has to deschool"?-=-
Lots of times, but that still doesn't make all of your strong comments
plain truth.
-=-I wanted to express the idea that this mom is making choices, in
having school in her son's young life, in her whole family's life,
that have repercussions and negative effects that she may not be
considering, especially if her goal and desire and philosophical
alignment is with unschooling. I want to point out some possibly harsh
truths about possible school damage. These ideas I listed are all
reasons many of us did not put our 5 year old in school or do school
at home with our 5 year olds - or renounced school and school-at-home
once we learned about unschooling.-=-
Sure, but you didn't list ideas. You made statements of seeming fact
that weren't factual.
-=-School damage is a real phenomenon that this list has talked about
often. I had a lot of great experiences in school myself, definitely
better than home, but that doesn't mean I can't see the damage school
did to me, and the kinds of ways school can damage the very young. The
definition we use on this list of "deschool" is "heal from school
damage". -=-
-=- The definition we use on this list of "deschool" is "heal from
school damage". -=-
I don't know if I can agree with that. It suggests that there is one
definition of deschooling that we all use. I think deschooling is
learning to see natural learning. Yes, when the school damages comes
to the surface (which will be at various times over the years, for
adults), deschooling and unschooling are excellent for healing it, but
it's more than just healing from school damage. It's seeing the world
in a non-schoolish way, in a different way.
-=-Folks here usually encourage people to leave school and turn
towards unschooling.-=--=-
Of course they do, but it seemed you hit the topic with a hammer and
then again, and again, and again, and again, and I wanted you to relax
a bit and not pound that same nail so hard.
-=-He's 5. IF you want the FULL benefits of unschooling, pull him out
of school and throw away your curriculum.-=-
This is true. Some of the statements you made about school, though,
were not necessarily true. If you had qualified the statements with
"might" or "could" or "can" I wouldn't have said a word.
Sandra
I see what you mean now. I think I got caught up in the rhythm of my own
writing, the sound of it rather than the content. I should have waited to
post and read it again later.
However there is an idea here:
====I think deschooling is learning to see natural learning. Yes, when the
school damages comes
to the surface (which will be at various times over the years, for adults),
deschooling and unschooling are excellent for healing it, but
it's more than just healing from school damage. It's seeing the world in a
non-schoolish way, in a different way.====
We are using the same word, "deschooling", for two slightly different
phenomena.
I think your description is perfectly apt for describing the process and
result adults/parents would be experiencing, especially observing someone
else learn (ie their own kids).
But I don't think it's what happens with kids in the same way. Sandra and I
share in common that our kids were never in school (at least so far in my
case). We have to rely on the reports of others. Most of the time I think
"heal from school damage" does accurately describe what the kids'
deschooling looks like, from these reports. Or at least that is the first
thing that has to happen before any of the other wonderful aspects can
occur.
Are most kids this self conscious that they pause to recognize what natural
learning looks like in themselves? Maybe, because the school damage might
have manifested as all those variations of "I must be stupid" that so many
children lament. But it also sounds a little like when people new to
unschooling talk about their expectation that their kid "will ask to learn
about xxxx today" - not what usually happens in practice when unschooling is
working.
Maybe the real moment that a child pulled from school has deschooled -
healed from the damage - is when they stop thinking about whether, if and
what they are *learning* and just go about their business, following their
interests and doing the things they love, and the learning is happening
automatically.
Meanwhile I never consider what Jayn is learning on a day to day basis. I
tend to notice particular leaps, or if a topic has come up on a list I will
realize she has acquired a skill in hindsight. I know she's learning, I know
she's breathing, I know she's growing taller. My Jayn-directed attention is
on what she is doing, if she needs anything, and how she is treating the
people around her (it's a barometer).
Letting go of a need to watch for her learning, wanting to categorize or
quantify her learning, has been part of my adult deschooling. And quite
honestly, spending less time amongst home schooling acquaintances (as
against unschoolers or closer friends) has actually helped with that. Most
of the playdates Jayn does these days are drop off type instead of me
staying. Most of the people with whom I am spending time, home schooling or
not, are artist friends.