A new question (a few questions, really)
Sandra Dodd
plaidpa...@yahoo.com
> you conquer constant complaining in your kids?
By shifting my perspective and expectations.
"Conquer constant complaining" makes for some fun alliteration, but its
not a particularly helpful viewpoint to have of someone who shares your
life. Try looking at all the same situations from the kids'
perspectives - really from their side, not just from an idealized adult
image of what a perfect child should think. How would you feel if
someone you loved described you as "constantly complaining"? How would
it feel to learn that someone wanted to "conquer" you? Ouch.
> Anytime I ask them to do anything around the house, like clean
> up their own messes, or take their clothing (that I have washed and
> folded) to their rooms, or help with the dishes or sweeping, or just
> straightening up in general, I see a transformation in them. They go
> from happy and energetic to suddenly woeful, and so tired that they
> can't possible do something I've asked them to without telling me how
> tired they are, or worse, just constant complaining. Or just
> stopping in the middle of a job, and having to be told to complete it.
Here is some thing to consider - can they say No, or Not right now? If
you were in the middle of raking the yard and your husband asked you to
wash the car (just as an example) would you instantly drop the rake and
say "Why, sure, sweetie! No problem!" More likely you would sigh or
roll your eyes and say "I'm kinda busy, here."
Part of unschooling is seeing what our kids choose to do as important -
respecting their activities and interests as being as valuble as our
own. If my 5yr old is in the middle of stacking throw pillows to make
The Mountain of Doom on the sofa and I ask her to please pick up her
legos, she's going to be annoyed with me - can't I see she's in the
middle of an Important Project? If my 13yr old stepson is on Myspace
and I ask him to do the dishes, he's going to grumble - can't I see
he's busy catching up on his correspondence? I try to be sensitive to
what the kids are up to and *not* ask them to do something Right Now if
they are obviously in the middle of something else.
If they aren't obviously in the middle of something, I still find it
more helpful to let them know I could use a hand than to tell them what
to do. The 13yr old, especially, is extremely sweet and helpful -
unless he feels like he's being pressured into doing something. He
volunteered to do the dishes today. He's done that before, in addition
to bringing in firewood, helping with dinner and doing his own laundry.
If he feels like he *has* to do it, he gets very sullen and resistant,
though. We don't see that very often, b/c we rarely make him feel like
he's required to do something.
My partner and I are both divorced. One of the things our Exes had in
common is that they "required" us to say "I love you" under certain
conditions. We both learned to hate those words! How ironic. I see the
housework issue as similar. I want my kids to help around the house b/c
they choose to do something helpful, not b/c they've been required to
live up to my expectations. And I find that when I've been helpful to
them and respectful of their time and interests and needs, they are
happy to help out, in their own ways and on their own terms.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Schuyler Waynforth
My question to you, as an experienced unschooler, is, how do you conquer constant complaining in your kids?
Is it actually constant complaining? Constant is 24 hours 7 days a week. You say they are happy and energetic until you "ask" them to do anything around the house. It seems a pretty clear message to me that they are happy and energetic until they see you passing out the chores. How are you approaching them to ask for help? Simon and Linnaea, who've been unschooled since they were school age, so for Simon 4 years and Linnaea 2 (because when Linnaea was 4 we were in Britain where school age is 4, but Simon was in the U.S. at 4, so he got screwed in total number of years in unschooling), can be reticent to help if I come to them tired and crabby and talking about "their messes". And sometimes they just don't want to help. But they both like vacuuming, so if I ask them to vacuum they'll often do that. And if they say no, I do the vacuuming. It isn't a big deal for me to vacuum. I don't do it that often, and if the floor is cleared already its only a 10 minute job.
Anytime I ask them to do anything around the house, like clean up their own messes, or take their clothing (that I have washed and folded) to their rooms, or help with the dishes or sweeping, or just straightening up in general, I see a transformation in them. They go from happy and energetic to suddenly woeful, and so tired that they can't possible do something I've asked them to without telling me how tired they are, or worse, just constant complaining. Or just stopping in the middle of a job, and having to be told to complete it.
The real problem lies in trying to modify someone else's behavior. Asking for help is good, expecting a yes every time isn't going to come for a while, if ever. And if you aren't asking for help, but are saying "you need to do this and that and the other" and "you make the mess, you need to clean it up" you aren't likely to get willing participants. I don't always like to clean up. But, if I am enjoying the process of transforming something messy into something ordered and clean than Simon and Linnaea are more likely to want to be a part of that. Linnaea enjoys cleaning. When she showers she will often scrub down the shower stall because she enjoys it. But if I told her she needed to clean the shower out, that it was one of her chores, it would change the dynamic pretty intensely.
I mean, I totally expect this kind of thing out of my now almost 5 year old, and even my almost 7 year old.... but the almost 9, and 10 and a half year old? They have such EASY lives! They play all day long. They have nothing to complain about doing the occasional chore.
What happens between 7 and 9 that makes you think that a child should be more likely to embrace chores? I got worse as I got older. The star charts were appealing when I was 6, but they didn't hold my attention when I was 10. And then my parents took the stick instead of the carrot approach.
If you are seeing them as chores than they can't be gifts. A chore is an assigned task that they are required to do. So, if you do it for them it can be a gift, but if they do it for you it can never be a gift. Do you see what I mean? My least favorite job is putting clothes away. I think largely because I have to go away into the bedrooms to do it and I like to live in the public spaces of the house. But one day of feeling mean and small and Cinderella-like about being in the back bedroom putting away Simon's and Linnaea's clothes brought me the joy of seeing Linnaea dancing in clothes she'd forgotten she had the next morning. So she gave me a gift of joy that I hadn't seen before in relation to putting clothes away. She made it possible for folding and putting away clothes to be me storing away joyful dances for her. And that makes a huge difference in how I see that job and how I approach it. But your children can never give you the gift of a clean room or of bringing their clothes from the folding space to their room or whatever because those are assigned tasks. If they do those jobs, they are only doing as they are told.
My husband and I totally love the unschooling way academically. But is living such an unstructured life allowing them to think that life is all play and no work? My husband's first thought is to send them off to school, and then they'll understand how easy they have it compared to other kids, and maybe they won't complain at a few household chores... But I can think of a LARGE number of things that would totally defeat the good that might come of them learning some responsibility to a wake up time, and homework.... I do NOT want to send them to school. I told him I was thinking of having them get some kind of part time job or something. We have family that are farmers and carpenters, who could help with some kind of apprentice thing to teach them some responsibility, and let them hear someone else tell them that their work ethic could use some working on....
What a wonderful thing if they can have a life that is all play and no work. My life is largely playful with very little toil. I love chopping wood and cutting down hedges and gardening and knitting and baking bread and making dinner and, while I am not always fond of the laundry and of doing dishes, I can find ways to get my head around those tasks too so that they don't seem such burdens. Life is good if it is playful. And it seems to me that if your husband is so quick to turn to school to "educate" your children that he may have more problems than just their reluctance to do chores. Maybe you need to figure out ways to help him to see how valuable their lives at home are so that he doesn't think of school as the way out.
I did read through some of your blog and you're pregnant aren't you? Are you tired? Are you attributing a lack of responsibility to your children when you just don't have the energy to deal with 5 children and another one on the way? Maybe if you look at how you are right now you won't feel that what is overwhelming you is the 5 children you have, but the one that is at the height of parasitism inside of you? I was mean to our animals when I was pregnant with Linnaea, I'm not proud of it. Oh, and I spanked Simon, little 2 year old Simon, once when I was pregnant with Linnaea. I just wasn't seeing clearly enough that I didn't have the energy I needed to deal with everything. I wasn't giving myself space to cool down instead of pushing myself to run at normal levels and then blowing up at what I felt were external annoyances, things that wouldn't have annoyed me if I hadn't been pregnant.
Read here: http://sandradodd.com/chores
and http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ (on the righthand side is a link to a chore specific section, but stay for a while, wander through and let all of the ideas percolate through you).
I would write more, but I've deleted about 5 different paragraphs 'cause its 12:30 am and I am just too tired. So, maybe I'll see if there is something I want to add tomorrow.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
Betsy Hill
It took me awhile to wrap my brain around this in my own life. But
eventually I realized that if I wouldn't take "No" or "No, thank you" as
an answer, then I wasn't really *asking* for help, I was *demanding*
help, but phrasing it like a question.
Betsy
Amy Carpenter-Leugs
==
> Anytime I ask them to do anything around the house, like clean up their
> own messes, or take their clothing (that I have washed and folded) to their
> rooms, or help with the dishes or sweeping, or just straightening up in
> general, I see a transformation in them. They go from happy and energetic
> to suddenly woeful, and so tired that they can't possible do something I've
> asked them to without telling me how tired they are, or worse, just constant
> complaining. Or just stopping in the middle of a job, and having to be told
There are ways to invite kids to help without it feeling like
*chores.* Fisher (9) and I had a really nice time cleaning his room
the other day. He sat on his bed and helped me figure out where to
put things for the most part. <G> But we had a nice time chatting,
and we had a nice glow going as the room went from very messy to
somewhat organized. It felt like we did it together, even though an
outside observer would have seen me doing most of the moving around.
It took us a while to get to the point of cleaning, even when I
offered to do it for him. It had been hard to figure out what to do
with his many Lego spaceship creations, until we cleared a low shelf
on his closet for them -- that way he didn't have to break them down
or put them away yet (as he wasn't ready), but we could still clear
the floor space.
Many times with cleaning jobs, there are problems like that to be
solved, and it's a little overwhelming to try to tackle them yourself.
True for kids and adults.
At this developmental stage, kids really don't see messes the same way
that we do. But when they grow up and they *do* see them, and they
*want* to do something about them (and that will happen) -- these are
the associations I want my kids to have with cleaning and taking care
of their living space -- fun, talking, companionship, problem-solving,
a sense of accomplishment, freedom to try doing it a different way,
seeing things a new way.
So whenever I ask for help (and that is actually very, *very* rarely
at this point, as I realize that cleaning is *my* priority and not my
kids'), I try to break it down into doable things, and I try to make
it a fun invitation ("I'll be with you" -- even it's just nearby,
cleaning up something else), and I try to smile ... and most of all, I
let them know that "no" is an acceptable answer. Again -- cleaning is
my priority, not theirs. I'm asking for help with something that is
important to me -- that's important to remember.
Joyce Fetteroll has a whole section of her website devoted to
questions about chores. Here's a start -- then you can click the
other links under the Chores heading on the right side of the screen:
== But is living such an unstructured life allowing them to think that
life is all play and no work? <snip> I told him I was thinking of
having them get some kind of part time job or something. We have
family that are farmers and carpenters, who could help with some kind
of apprentice thing to teach them some responsibility ==
Your thinking here really isn't working well for unschooling, in quite
a few different ways.
1. It sounds like you are worried that they won't learn
"responsibility" by adulthood. It also sounds like you are separating
what they are learning "academically" from the rest of life. But the
premise behind unschooling is that all of life is learning, and that
when kids are developmentally ready, they will learn what they need,
in a way that is meaningful to them.
2. You are separating play and work, when in reality, they can be one
and the same a lot of the time -- if we keep our attitudes playful and
have the freedom to choose what work is important to us.
3. You are looking to "teach" them something, when unschooling is all
about the *learning* -- what goes on in the person experiencing the
learning. If you send them to work, they may learn many things --
that others think they are lazy, that you don't want them around, that
you see lack in them, that the work they do is more important than who
they are and their own interests -- but they probably won't learn the
"responsibility" that you are trying to "teach" them.
4. Unschooling is a relationship-based learning. Our kids learn best
with us because they trust us, and feel good about themselves around
us, and feel creative and joyful and free when they feel so good about
themselves. Given all of that, think about this -- will your ideas
about teaching responsibility work towards building a good
relationship with your kids?
Peace,
Amy
--
Fresh From the Universe
www.geocities.com/freshfromtheuniverse
Astrology, Tarot Cards, and Dream Work
Specializing in Children and Families
"It is not a slight thing when they, who are so fresh from God, love us."
-- Charles Dickens
Opal Dreaming
> Anytime I ask them to do anything around the
house, like clean
> up their own messes, or take their clothing (that I
have washed and
> folded) to their rooms, or help with the dishes or
sweeping, or just
> straightening up in general, I see a transformation
in them. They go
> from happy and energetic to suddenly woeful, and so
tired that they
> can't possible do something I've asked them to
without telling me how
> tired they are, or worse, just constant complaining.
Or just
> stopping in the middle of a job, and having to be
told to complete it.
My daughter is 15. We came late to unschooling but
embraced it fully when we
did. For 18 months or so I've had a physical
disability which prevents me doing
most of the household chores. Since my partner [dh]
works full time & I don't
work at all, it feels somehow wrong to expect him to
do *everything*. It has
therefore been tempting to insist my daughter does at
least some of the things I
can no longer do. I've read and thought long and hard
on this issue as a
result.
What I've discovered is this: When my feeling is that
she *should* do [whatever
it is] then she resists and complains. The chores are
done less than
half-heartedly and everyone ends up unhappy. When my
feeling is that she's
giving me a gift by helping do [whatever it is] then
she cheerfully helps.
Maybe not immediately - maybe not even that day - but
it always gets done -
peacefully and cheerfully. I have had to examine my
priorities very carefully -
peaceful messy house vs unhappy clean house. People
vs possessions.
I've found Sandras page on chores
[http://sandradodd.com/chores] invaluable in
this regard.
Peace,
Col
P.S. It pays off in the long term. Dd isn't *that*
into cooking but, while I
was writing this, she came to ask if 'please please'
could she help with food
preparation for tomorrow. She also began cooking us
pancakes for brunch <g>.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Sandra Dodd
about teaching responsibility work towards building a good
relationship with your kids?
Anyone who's still looking to teach, looking for teaching, and trying
to teach, hasn't yet relaxed into unschooling.
If you think kids have to "be taught responsibility" than are you
also teaching them reading and writing and math?
Marty worked six hours today. That makes, I think, 52 hours this
week. He'll make overtime for those twelve or so over. He works at
a grocery store. He's shepherding/training several new courtesy
clerks (those who pack the groceries and carry them out--this is a
very full-service store, where if you ask where something is they
walk you over there, and they put the groceries in the car). Because
it's nearly Christmas, they asked him to work as much as he could.
We didn't tell Marty he should get a job. His first job was offered
to him and the second one he applied for. He's not yet 18 (but is
nearly so).
Marty's room isn't clean at the moment. The couch is covered in
clean clothes and there are dirty socks on the floor, but the clothes
he needs for work are put by the washing machine as soon as he takes
them off, and I wash them for him. I could "make" him clean his
room, and I could refuse to do his laundry, but I don't.
I went nearly two weeks without folding clothes. I kept piling the
clean clothes on the couch, and people would mine for what they
needed. This is unusual but I had a super busy couple of weeks, and
while I usually sort and fold during Desperate Housewives or Boston
Legal, they didn't have new shows so I didn't watch them.
Yesterday I sorted and folded for two hours, while Holly and I
watched Ice Age 2. Each basket went to a room, with the clothes
folded in there. I could have demanded that the person put clothes
in drawers, but why? Neither Kirby nor Marty was home when I was
done. I could've put their clothes away (I put Keith's away, mostly,
and left some on the bed for him to do, but they were folded). When
and if I really do need the baskets, I'll ask one of them to empty
the basket because I need it.
That's not a big deal. It's my gift to them, and I see them do nice
things for other people all the time, and for me, too. When Marty
was going with me to buy a phone charger for Kirby for a surprise
(he's been having to use a car charger because his wall-plug charger
broke), he told me that Kirby had helped a friend pay his rent,
nearly $200, because Kirby had been hanging out there a lot and the
guy was having financial problems. Kirby didn't come home and brag
about that.
Many children (and adults) were raised to be selfish and to not do
anything they didn't "have to" do. The result is the culture we see
all around us, the suspicion and resentment. My kids aren't like
all the other kids around them, and I'm glad of that.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Katy
Michelle Schooling
----- Original Message -----From: Sandra DoddSent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 9:50 PMSubject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: A new question (a few questions, really)-=- My question to you, as an experienced unschooler, is, how do you conquer constant complaining in your kids?-=-I'm glad lots of people have already responded.What jumped out at me about that question was "conquer."It's an adversarial word.One thing that made unschooling easy for us was that from the time Kirby was a baby and we went to La Leche League, I had been given the gift of the idea that parent and child should be partners, and not adversaries.
Thanks for replying all of you! I appreciate it. As in all writing, some feelings do not come across as they are felt. Some of the things that you are writing are the way things are, and some are not. I think you are right, I have not relaxed into unschooling as a complete lifestyle, I have just been enjoying the academic part. My kids have no structured learning time, just fun learning through games they choose to play and writing and reading that they choose to do. I smile as I write this because this is so far from my previous philosophies (before being fully introduced to unschooling).I know that my "asking" the children to help me is more like a demand phrased as a question. So far, for me, that was as far as I was willing to go with it. It was better than "telling them what they had to do", as I have been raised, and am still encouraged to do through my church and close family ties.
If you can start dismantling all the adversarial parts of your relationships, there won't be things to complain about. Neither you nor your children will be complaining.
I would love to start dismantling all the adversarial parts of the relationship with my kids. There really aren't that many, actually. Someone else asked me if "constant" complaining was an accurate term as it implies 24/7 complaining.She's right, it's not 24/7. It can just feel that way when my priority is to get the house clean, and I am 8 months pregnant and too tired to do it all myself.
The post that seemed on the surface to be about kids who complain was, overall, a mom complaining about her kids.I hope it's not constant. :-)
I don't complain to them persay, but I suppose that some people could look at it that way. I try to relay to them that if they are going go through life with an "I don't like/want to work" attitude, then they will not accomplish much. I do try to tell them that work is just part of life and can be fun.My one son responds with, "How can work be fun?" I don't know how to explain it, I just say that it can be if you make it that way.
-=- Anytime I ask them to do anything around the house, like clean up their own messes, or take their clothing (that I have washed and folded) to their rooms, or help with the dishes or sweeping, or just straightening up in general, I see a transformation in them. They go from happy and energetic to suddenly woeful, and so tired that they can't possible do something I've asked them to without telling me how tired they are, or worse, just constant complaining-=-I'm guessing that's how they used to be about structured lessons when you used a curriculum. Do you see similarities, if so?
Yes, absolutely that's how it was with the structured curriculum. The difference was/is that I do not see value in doing repetitive work that they can learn with much more fun somewhere else. With housework, it is something that I know that they will be doing in the future. It has value. It is real life.
-=-Or just stopping in the middle of a job, and having to be told to complete it.-=-Something jumps out at me there, too: "having to"You don't HAVE TO tell them they HAVE TO."Have to" is a fallacy. Choice is where you'll find your joy.
I would like to believe that my kids would choose to do their work.... but I haven't seen it anywhere in other kids... I know logically that you all consider it the same concept as the academic learning... but I can't wrap my head around that one yet.If I just let them choose to clean when they wanted to, it would drive me crazy! I would feel like I was the only one who cared to keep the house clean... I know that they would do some things, but not all up to MY standards... Yes... I know I said MY standards. I can't quite wrap my head around the thought that I shouldn't expect my kids to help when I ask them. That I should accept them telling me "No, mom, I don't really want to do that." It would feel like they don't respect me, and don't care that I do all this other work for them."Yes, I do the housework with the thought in mind that I am doing it for them, but maybe not completely without "making" myself do it... I have always been a person with a "should list" in all areas of my life.This is getting really long, so I'll post it, and then read some more of your replies.Thanks so much for your help, and please keep writing me!Michelle
Michelle Schooling
From: Sandra DoddSent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 9:50 PMSubject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: A new question (a few questions, really)
Michelle Schooling
----- Original Message -----From: KatySent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 5:55 AMSubject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: A new question (a few questions, really)
Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe it would be helpful to talk to the kids and find out if
they do have complaints, and take them seriously. -=-
Good point, Katy.
My mother was big on telling me I had nothing to complain about, that
I was spoiled growing up post-war instead of in the Depression, and
her biggest and surest interpretation of my words was to tell me
(MANY times) "You're not hungry."
I would say "I'm hungry."
She would say "You're not hungry."
When she was particularly cranky or drunk, she would add "You've
never been hungry a day in your life."
Even if all she was doing was comparing her own Depression-era
family, who picked cotton to buy potatoes and flour, etc., to our
family where my dad (unlike hers, EVER, depression or no) had a
steady job, there were times when she herself had spent all the
grocery money on cigarettes and beer and we really didn't have food.
So part of her "You're not hungry" was denial of the fact that she
wasn't always buying or preparing food.
That makes me really sensitive, though, to parents deciding on their
children's feelings for them. I've seen some pretty unreasonable and
irritating parents tell their kids "You have nothing to complain about."
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
Please be careful using stock phrases instead of really choosing all
of your own words.
I also remember "You can't be bored. You have a thousand dollars
worth of toys." Yeah, maybe all the toys the four of us had ever
had, including those long gone, would have equalled a thousand
dollars after twelve or thirteen years, but my mom also tended to
throw things away instead of put them away, so there was never any
thousand dollars worth of toys.
Some kids will remember for life what parents say now, so be careful
what you say. <bwg>
Sandra
who remembers too much
Sandra Dodd
clean, and I am 8 months pregnant and too tired to do it all myself. -=-
Then let it not be done at all.
If this was your first baby and the house was a mess, who would you
tell to clean it?
Yes, kids make messes.
You do have lots of choices, and one of them is to drop all this
unschooling and put your kids in school.
If you choose not to do that, then you have also chosen not to have
some of their time and mess and activity be elsewhere.
You could choose to make them clean. It takes a LOT of energy, and
it can destroy joy, but you could choose that.
If you choose not to do that, then you will also choose to settle for
a messier house.
-=-I don't complain to them persay, but I suppose that some people
could look at it that way. -=-
It hardly matters how other people could look at it.
How do your children look at it?
Kids know when you're angry with them even if you never say a word.
-=-I do try to tell them that work is just part of life and can be
fun.-=-
Are you lying, or do you believe it? Can't you SHOW them work is and
can be fun by cleaning up after them? By putting their clothes in
their drawers? If you can't, then they'll not only not believe you,
they'll think you're dishonest with them. (They'll not just think
it, it will be so.)
-=-My one son responds with, "How can work be fun?" I don't know how
to explain it, I just say that it can be if you make it that way.-=-
If you can't make it fun and show him, there's no sense in trying to
explain it. If work can be fun, figure out how to have fun doing
what you need to do as a mom, and when they see it they'll believe
it. HELP them, don't just tell them (or ask them) to do something,
do it together. That helps make things fun. And pleasant
conversation about other things makes work fun, not a stream of
bitching about how they couldve done it sooner and better and more
happily and you shouldn't have to be helping them because they're 9,
or 12 or whatever.
You might not do that, but I've seen moms do it, and there are lots
of people reading this list, so don't take the examples inward and
personally. We end up taking ideas from any posts and laying them
out in the middle and discussing them as ideas without particulars.
Me:-=-=-I'm guessing that's how they used to be about structured
lessons when you used a curriculum. Do you see similarities, if so?-
=-=-=-
Michelle: -=-Yes, absolutely that's how it was with the structured
curriculum. The difference was/is that I do not see value in doing
repetitive work that they can learn with much more fun somewhere
else. With housework, it is something that I know that they will be
doing in the future. It has value. It is real life.-=-
The same principles apply everywhere. If repetitive requirements to
write teach school kids to hate writing, they're less likely to write
for fun.
If repetitive work requirements cause kids to hate housework and seek
to avoid it in the future, maybe they'll be meaner to their own kids,
thinking "YES! This is only for kids, so I will do it now, but NOT
when I'm grown. I will have six kids and make THEM do it."
There are people with that attitude. Some of them grow up VERY
resentful if they so much as put a child's socks away, because their
mom wouldn't do it for them, and it's not fair for them to have had
to work as kids AND then have kids who don't "have to work." And so
it becomes a cycle of meanness, and relationships are built on
resentment and avoidance and messages of laziness.
-=-I would like to believe that my kids would choose to do their
work.... but I haven't seen it anywhere in other kids...-=--
They will never choose to read your mind and do everything you
imagine they would do if they were clones of you who could read your
mind.
But if you tell them what to do, they can never EVER choose to to
work, because they have no choice.
Without choice, they cannot choose.
And it's not "their work" unless you assign it to them and MAKE it
theirs, giving them no choice.
-=-I would like to believe that my kids would choose to do their work-=-
The way you've worded it gives you no leeway to see another angle.
You think there is work that is "their work."
What if one of your children was disabled and couldn't put his own
clothes away. Would that be "your work"?
What if one of your children is simply three years old and can't put
his own clothes away? Is that your work?
You chose to have children, and so the choice was yours, and taking
care of them is your work. If you're in the U.S. you have the right
to spank them to try to make them do it. You probably have the right
to withhold food. Somewhere in the range of what you can legally do
and what you could possibly do to live a different way is where you
will settle. Every bit of it will be a decision on your part.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Sandra Dodd
Sandra Dodd
Sandra Dodd
Sandra Dodd
Schuyler Waynforth
Thanks for replying all of you! I appreciate it. As in all writing, some feelings do not come across as they are felt. Some of the things that you are writing are the way things are, and some are not.
All we know of you is your writing. On a list like this it is all we have to go from. If you want to be clearly understood, write as clearly about how you feel as you can. It is also interesting to look at what you've written. You said they are constantly complaining. And while that is obviously hyperbole, it is also important to see how you are skewing what is going on, how your presentation of your children to strangers is one where you see them as whining and lazy and irresponsibility and needing to be shown by strangers how good they've got it with you. So, when someone here takes the words you've chosen to express yourself and your feelings and shows them to you, it is so you can see what you are saying and maybe have a clearer vision of why things aren't working for you and your family.
I know that my "asking" the children to help me is more like a demand phrased as a question. So far, for me, that was as far as I was willing to go with it. It was better than "telling them what they had to do", as I have been raised, and am still encouraged to do through my church and close family ties.
I think being straight out told to do something is better than being pretend asked. I think it helps both parties be clearer about their roles in this dance you are doing. So, if you tell your kids to take their folded laundry to their rooms and put it away it is clearer that you see yourself as the head of the house and that you expect them to do as they are told. If you ask and they say no and you start lecturing them about how good they've got it, well, surely that is more of a palaver than you ever wanted to be involved with. I ask Simon and Linnaea if they will help do something if I am willing to accept no as an answer. I've told them to do things on occasion, things like putting their empty chips packets in the trash or something, but largely if I am looking for help, I ask, completely prepared to work alone.
It can just feel that way when my priority is to get the house clean, and I am 8 months pregnant and too tired to do it all myself.
Make room for being pregnant. Decide that your should list, your standards are too high for a happy and joyous life and that your growing parasite deserves a relaxed and happy home that comes from less adversity. And recognize that it was a choice to be pregnant. And it wasn't one that your 5 other children were a party to, I'm guessing.
I don't complain to them persay, but I suppose that some people could look at it that way. I try to relay to them that if they are going go through life with an "I don't like/want to work" attitude, then they will not accomplish much. I do try to tell them that work is just part of life and can be fun.My one son responds with, "How can work be fun?" I don't know how to explain it, I just say that it can be if you make it that way.
And I think that is what happens when you tell someone what to do. If you say to your one son do this and this and that, spit spot, work is fun and this is fun and do it now, you've taken all of his power to opt to do something away from him. You've taken away any fun that it might have been if he'd been allowed to freely choose to do it. And you've made it your job.
-=- Anytime I ask them to do anything around the house, like clean up their own messes, or take their clothing (that I have washed and folded) to their rooms, or help with the dishes or sweeping, or just straightening up in general, I see a transformation in them. They go from happy and energetic to suddenly woeful, and so tired that they can't possible do something I've asked them to without telling me how tired they are, or worse, just constant complaining-=-
I'm guessing that's how they used to be about structured lessons when you used a curriculum. Do you see similarities, if so?Yes, absolutely that's how it was with the structured curriculum. The difference was/is that I do not see value in doing repetitive work that they can learn with much more fun somewhere else. With housework, it is something that I know that they will be doing in the future. It has value. It is real life.
How many times do you have to use a vacuum to know how to do it? How many times do you have to wash the dishes to be competent? Once they are competent are you going to stop making them do it?
I would like to believe that my kids would choose to do their work.... but I haven't seen it anywhere in other kids... I know logically that you all consider it the same concept as the academic learning... but I can't wrap my head around that one yet.
If I just let them choose to clean when they wanted to, it would drive me crazy! I would feel like I was the only one who cared to keep the house clean... I know that they would do some things, but not all up to MY standards... Yes... I know I said MY standards. I can't quite wrap my head around the thought that I shouldn't expect my kids to help when I ask them. That I should accept them telling me "No, mom, I don't really want to do that." It would feel like they don't respect me, and don't care that I do all this other work for them."
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
michellem...@hotmail.com
tell my daughter is not a scare tactic. She actually has had those
problems, and I'm using them as reasons. I'm honestly being honest
with her. Those are things she has had problems with from NOT taking
showers and combing her hair..... yes, I suppose I could just let her
go and not take a shower or comb her hair for as long as she wants, but
then I know the end result for her WILL be soreness and tangles.... and
I'm trying to head her pain off before it begins.
You have a point about the ugly thoughts about my kids. I
don't want to think them.
And yes, the should list certainly came from my mom, and believe me, I
have WAYYYYY relaxed over what she STILL puts herself through... and I
have to currently tell her not to worry that her room isn't clean
before she invites the kids over to spend the night. I have to tell
her that it's the time with her that they will remember, not the clean
house.....
Yes, I see where I am contradicting myself by telling her these
things, and not applying them myself.
Someone wrote that my option could be to send them to school and
then they wouldn't be here to make the mess.... My husband has said
that to me before in the context of "You can't expect the house to be
clean all the time. You have 6 people being in it constantly!" He has
also said to me, "You chose this lifestyle!" And please don't take it
that he is opposed to it, he fully enjoys it, but is telling me just
like you all are, that this is my choice... I can't have my unschooling
life and a clean house (to my standards) too....
I will read more on Joyce's and Sandra's lists..... I've read
some, but not all....
Sandra Dodd
Now THERE is a word with a bad connotation: parasite.
As it's part of a woman's natural function to reproduce, I'm not sure
it applies to pregnancy.
In the case of an entirely unwanted pregnancy caused by stranger
violence, maybe. But in marriage?
I don't think so.
Sandra
Schuyler Waynforth
You are right though: her growing fetus deserves a relaxed and happy home that comes from less adversity.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
Deb Lewis
Clean hair can tangle too. A detangler can be used on unwashed hair just as
easily as it can be used on freshly washed hair.
Dylan has worn his hair long for many years. Braiding it at night reduced
tangles. Hair can go days (weeks even) without brushing and then when
she's in the mood you could plug in a movie, get some detangler and a fat
comb and visit with her and watch a movie while *you* untangle her hair.
If she never, ever brushed her hair again she wouldn't die. She'd have
interesting hair,<g> but she wouldn't even get sick from it.
Are you worried what people will think of you if her hair is wacky?
Deb Lewis
meredith
Michelle Schooling wrote:
>>>>> I'll say, when you are done, honey, you need to take a shower. She'll ask why she needs to, and I'll explain that if you don't stay clean you might get sores in certain areas, or if you don't brush your hair that it will be soooo knotted the next time you try to brush it that it will hurt a lot worse.>>>>
Can she get clean in other ways than taking a shower? You said "sores
in certain areas" - can she just wash those parts? Does it have to be
right away or could she do it later? Or would she like to consider some
alternative therapies for whatever is causing those sores? Would she
like to try some different hairstyles or products?
A big part of unschooling is trying to find and create more options for
our kids, and that extends to everything. So when our kids ask "why do
I have to do that?" we have a wonderful opportunity to step back and
really think about that very question - why, indeed? rather than
imediately coming up with the most convenient rationale and presenting
that as The Right Answer.
You asked about deschooling and this is part of that - questioning our
own answers. Even if that means stopping halfway through a sentence and
saying "You know, I'm not sure this is such a good reason. I'm
*worried* that xyz might happen, but that could be just me worrying.
Maybe we could try something different." That's really challenging at
first. Part of the school-in-your-head is the assumption that adults
have the answers. Traditional parenting is based on the same idea - do
what I say b/c I'm the adult, I have The Answers. Hogwash.
Imagine having that whole conversation differently: "would you like to
take a shower after breakfast?"
"not really"
"okay, I'm kind of worried about your skin condition, though, do you
want to just have a sponge bath or try something different today?"
"I want to do something different."
"Okay, lets think about that. Is there something about the shower you
dislike?"
And so on.
By telling her she Must shower you are preventing her from taking
responsibility for her own health and well being. Invite her into the
process. I'm not saying to just shrug your shoulders and dump the
matter in her lap! But you can learn to listen to her wants and wishes
and concerns and help her figure out how to balance them against other
issues.
Sandra Dodd
own answers. Even if that means stopping halfway through a sentence and
Excellent point.
That's how Keith and I learned to be the kinds of parents we wanted
to be, when Kirby was a baby and we were hanging around several La
Leche League families. My kids are still friends with some of those
other "babies" from those days (who are teens and older now). Two of
them came up in conversation just this morning while we were opening
gifts. One works at Hot Topic and gave Marty a discount on Kirby's
gift. One has moved in to Albuquerque from 30 miles away, and Holly
was complaining that no one had told her.
So long term improvements and relationships came from our willingness
and desire to change. When we would start to say "No" to Kirby we
would think first, and if we could say yes we would.
One day Kirby and Keith were waiting for me an a parking lot. Kirby
was between a year old and two. Keith was holding his hand while
Kirby walked along those little concrete parking bumpers some parking
lots have, and helping him jump (holding his hands) from one to the
next one when he got to the end. A grandma-looking lady said to
Keith in a very critical voice, "He's too young to do that." Keith
just looked at her and she walked on, but he said later he had been
tempted to say, "But he's doing it."
Keith could've said no. The older woman seems to have indicated that
she would have said no, and that Keith should have said no. There is
a world of pressure to say no.
http://sandradodd.com/yes
There are several people's joyful suggestions about how to say "Yes"
more.
It helped us that we were already letting our kids make lots of
choices before Kirby was old enough to not go to school. They were
learning so much so happily without being controlled minute to minute
that we were pretty confident unschooling would work. It was
basically just extending attachment parenting into school age, and
not sending them away just because five years had passed.
Sandra
Angela Shaw
> tell my daughter is not a scare tactic. She actually has had those
> problems, and I'm using them as reasons. I'm honestly being honest
> with her. Those are things she has had problems with from NOT taking
> showers and combing her hair..... yes, I suppose I could just let her
> go and not take a shower or comb her hair for as long as she wants, but
> then I know the end result for her WILL be soreness and tangles.... and
> I'm trying to head her pain off before it begins.
If the sores and tangles were things that happened to your daughter from not
washing enough and not combing her hair, one might think that she would be
internally motivated to avoid having them happen again, if they bothered her
enough. (and maybe they didn't bother her that much)
My girls (ages 10 and 12) only bathe once a week and they've never had
sores. We do keep a box of baby wipes next to the toilet to be used after a
bowel movement because it makes it easier for them to clean themselves.
They do like to keep on top of the tangles so they don't get too bad. But
we can do that by brushing every other day, for the most part...at least the
first few days after their hair has been washed. It seems to get tangled
more easily when it's dirtier.
Angela Shaw
game-en...@adelphia.net
Life is Good!
Sally
While my own unschooling experience swerved similarly to the way yours
is now concerning children helping out with housework a few years ago,
that is the only similarity. We unschool two teenage girls, one might
say in this day and age, who are fully capable of cleaning maybe two
houses a day by some folks standards, BUT they don't. Don't even come
close(old me, old standard). I wasn't even pregnant like you, at the
time I wrote to the same people on a different board about this topic.
I was given the same advice, although, there is loads more on their
sites to read through now (I don't believe Joyce even had her site up
at the time). There were many great bits of advice, but some things
that have helped me is to ask the child for help. If they don't want
to do that particular "job", but would do something else, I ask them if
they would do a load of laundry, or vacuum the floor, etc. Basically,
no one likes doing dishes in our house, but obviously it's a chore that
has to be done often. I get that one 98% of the time, but I think
because I do that the girls don't mind helping out with other chores.
I've learned they have favorites! Also, that roaster you broiled
supper on can tolerate sitting in a good hot soapy soak until you feel
like dealing with it (Sandra shared that with me). I know you're
probably thinking, "The more time I spend doing the housework, the less
time I have to spend with the kids." Well, I did. It does seem to
work out somehow. Because I've shown them more respect, they show more
respect back.
I shared with one of my coworkers that my 14yo dd understood why I had
to come to work, but didn't like me being away from her so much. The
coworker asked if I knew how lucky I was to have a teenager that WANTED
to be around her mom. I looked her in the eye and said, "Believe me, I
know." She then invited my dd to come to work with me. The 14yo loves
it. She's been to work with me 3 times this week! Today all day! I
work part time in a licensing office that sees hundreds of people come
through, with it being the end of the month and the end of the year.
My youngest loves visiting with some of the people and when things get
a little too dry, she skips next door to the Sip and Surf to play
online and download more music to her MP3. Tonight before we left, my
office manager gave her a hug and told her to come back anytime.
Your children are all still quite young. You must have a very strong
backbone! Much luck if you choose to continue in this unschooling path.
michellem...@hotmail.com
health. I just couldn't get my head around the fact that she would
even care about her health at age 7. I am going to try to start giving
more options. This is such a new way of thinking for me. I have
always been the type of parent who believes in a hierarchy of authority
in a family. But I have always tried to make it more of a friendly
authority... I don't know if an unschooler can get that or not.. I have
never wanted to be a dictator or tyrant to my kids.
It wasn't until this morning that I even considered that they might be
able to be trusted with their diets, their desire to help clean, their
showers, etc....
Through a totally different subject that my husband and I had been
discussing I was thinking, and suddenly I just had that paradigm
shift.... Maybe I CAN trust them in those areas, just like I do other
areas like learning....
I don't know how it works that one minute you just cannot get an idea,
and the next you just SEE it.
I am coming along I think to the idea of fully unschooling. It is
still scary for me as it is a radical departure from my old beliefs.
But recently I have been doing a lot of skin shedding in a lot of
areas. I wrote all about it in my computer journal, but being personal
and very long, I'm not ready yet to post it here on the discussion
board.
Suffice it to say that I am beginning to see how I can actually trust
my kids in more areas than just the learning part.
michellem...@hotmail.com
greatly.
I will certainly take your advice. I have already put a hold on the
book "How to talk so that Kids will Listen" on CD at my local library,
and plan to download it to my ipod and listen to it at night.
Hopefully, I will find more advice like yours on that.
Lisa Bentley
> health. I just couldn't get my head around the fact that she would
> even care about her health at age 7.
The way that I like to think about this is:
Remember when your child was a newborn baby. My babies cried or made it
otherwise clear that they needed food when they were hungry. I
fulfilled their hunger. So long as children are never forced to not
listen to their bodies, they will always know what their body needs.
If you have forced your child to eat on a schedule or eat specific foods
(or not eat specific foods), it'll take some "de-fooding/conscious
eating" time in order for her to get back to listening to her body
again. However, it is much better to do this at age 7, then it is at
age 30+ when I started doing this for myself. It is amazing how
My daughters, ages 10 and 6, have always listened to their bodies
regarding food and are in tip top healthy shape. It definitely IS possible!
-Lisa in AZ
Linda Clement
Sandra Dodd <San...@SandraDodd.com> wrote:
I received this by e-mail and have brought it here (and the writer too; added her to the list) so that others can help. I think Holly and I are going to a movie soon, so please, if anyone comes by here and can help, do! I'll respond later.Thanks.--------------------------------------------------------------------
My question to you, as an experienced unschooler, is, how do you conquer constant complaining in your kids?
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Sandra Dodd
The net result of this tactic is that no one complains to me.
Words have their limitations. I don't mind when friends complain to
me. Very often it's their way of learning other ways to deal with
their problems. I COULD employ a "tactic" to keep them from
complaining to me, but I welcome that interaction from friends who
need a place to discuss their frustrations.
When the complaints are about me or the home situation and are things
I can change, it's very often easier to change those things, when the
complaints and requests are legitimate, than to justify bad decisions
on my part, and harsh conditions.
Maybe I could keep them from complaining without changing
conditions. Generations before us have done so. The net result of
that tactic is often that kids leave as soon as they can (or run
away) to get away from the situation.
Sandra
Amy Carpenter-Leugs
==
> The net result of this tactic is that no one complains to me.
I wouldn't be comfortable doing this with my kids because I would
rather have all avenues of communication -- even complaining -- open
to us as one of the many roads that will enhance our relationship.
If my kids felt they couldn't complain to me because they wouldn't get
a sympathetic ear -- I might have missed a lot. I might have missed
boredom, and as an unschooling parent I *need* to know when boredom is
going on, because that's often a cue to step it up, to look for
something new, or to offer the old familiars but with a different
twist.
I might have missed sadness, or anger, or frustration, or lots of
other important messengers, if nobody complained to me. I might have
missed the opportunity to listen, and to help my kids sort through
what they were feeling.
Sometimes I can get frustrated by some complaining -- it's a normal
response, to want to be around a positive attitude rather than someone
who is complaining, even when that person is my child.
But that's my cue to *myself* to shift and listen and validate, to
remember that what my child is feeling is real and big to him, and
that if we can shed some awareness on it now, he will have those tools
later, as he matures and his emotions become even more complex and
affect more people (like co-workers and girlfriends and peers and
maybe his own children someday).
Peace,
Amy
--
Fresh From the Universe
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Specializing in Children and Families
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Linda Clement
-=-
The net result of this tactic is that no one complains to me.
-=-
Words have their limitations. I don't mind when friends complain to
me. Very often it's their way of learning other ways to deal with
their problems. I COULD employ a "tactic" to keep them from
complaining to me, but I welcome that interaction from friends who
need a place to discuss their frustrations.
I'm not interested in people complaining at me. Part of this stems from an impatience with people using 'helplessness' as a tool for living. Complaining, in my opinion, is about feeling powerless and whinging about something one has thusfar done nothing at all about, intends to do nothing at all about, and is primarily done with the desire to get someone else to fix it. However much fun venting might be, there is a time to stop it and move on to accepting reality as it is (mature) or putting it aside for a while (mature) doing something about it (mature)... not wallowing in how bad it is, how unfair it is, how wrong it is (immature).Discussing frustrations is not on the same page as complaining. 'This is boring' isn't the same as 'I don't know what I'm going to do about this.' One is a complaint, the other is a description. Complaints come, in my vocabulary at least, with a pile of judgement -- this is wrong, it's bad, it's someone's fault. Not so, discussing difficulties or challenges. There is an absense of awareness of choice in complaints that I find grating at the best of time, and as a result, I always, always 'go for the choice point' -- and direct the conversation in that way on purpose.
When the complaints are about me or the home situation and are things
I can change, it's very often easier to change those things, when the
complaints and requests are legitimate, than to justify bad decisions
on my part, and harsh conditions.
Complaints often come with the implication that someone 'should' fix it... someone else that is... not the complainer. If I do not have a problem with where the couch is, I certainly don't have energy to listen to a complaint about where the couch is, nor try to 'guess' what the desired solution might be.
This is why I often ask 'is this a request?' I happily entertain descriptions and requests... as in 'I find the couch there makes it hard to see the TV, and the sunlight is too bright, can we move it?' That is different from 'the couch is in the wrong place' or, more typical of something that would qualify as an actual complaint, 'the living room layout is stupid.'Because I know this is the preference of this list, the above draws from real conversations in my actual living room, with my real children. Need I say that the description/request was not the *first* approach taken?
Maybe I could keep them from complaining without changing
conditions. Generations before us have done so. The net result of
that tactic is often that kids leave as soon as they can (or run
away) to get away from the situation.
Sandra
Complaints imply that the problem is mine and the fix is my job. The problem is not mine -- the problem is someone else's. If I had a problem, I'd fix it (If men are from Mars, I'm a man in that way). If someone described a problem they were having and requested assistance, I'd help.Complaints fall leaden to the floor, partly because they're poor communication, in my opinion. There is too much guesswork necessary to 'get' whatever's being hinted at (e.g., vis a vis the couch scenario above... the real complaint doesn't describe what the 'actual' problem is, so the 'smart' way to rearrange the living room is a mystery.'Threatening the run-away of children as a 'net result' of being firm about using higher-skilled communication is, in my opinion, a bit dramatic.Thatwoman in Canada
Sandra Dodd
If you have a particular personal definition for "complaining" you'll
need to use it only in conversations with yourself. In a
discussion, it means what it means to the people in the discussion.
Voicing frustration can be called complaining.
-=-
Complaints often come with the implication that someone 'should' fix
it... someone else that is... not the complainer. If I do not have a
problem with where the couch is, I certainly don't have energy to
listen to a complaint about where the couch is, nor try to 'guess'
what the desired solution might be.
This is why I often ask 'is this a request?' -=-
A four year old can't move a couch, or a car, or food from the
freezer to the table. When a child is hungry or uncomfortable or
bored or would prefer to be elsewhere, he doesn't need to be asked
"is this a request"? If a mom is aware of what the child wants or
needs, if she wants to be generous and compassionate, she can act
without a specific request to act.
When my husband says people have left the garage door open and the
light on again, I don't say "Is this a request?" I remind the kids,
I'm more careful, I DO something, without someone having to say "I
have a request to make."
-=- Complaints fall leaden to the floor, partly because they're poor
communication, in my opinion. There is too much guesswork necessary
to 'get' whatever's being hinted at...-=-
Conversational English is PERFECT for helping people get nearer to
what they intended to say. When you used "net result" originally it
was to assure us that people do not complain to you. ("The net
result of this tactic is that no one complains to me.")
I've had children complain to me that they couldn't complain to their
parents, because their parents didn't want to hear it. I've had
children ask me questions about things their parents were unwilling
to discuss. It happened this morning, as a matter of fact, with my
20 year old nephew, who mentioned in the conversation that he still
felt like a child more than an adult, so I don't mind mentioning it
as example of a child complaining. We were discussing his parents'
divorce. It wasn't a couch I could move, but it was a piece of his
history on which I could shed a fair amount of light.
-=-Threatening the run-away of children as a 'net result' of being
firm about using higher-skilled communication is, in my opinion, a
bit dramatic.-=-
If no children had ever run away because of compassionless parents, I
wouldn't have mentioned it.
Sandra
Robyn L Coburn
<<<Complaints imply that the problem is mine and the fix is my job. The problem is not mine -- the problem is someone else's. >>>
If Jayn has a problem, she trusts her father and I to help her fix it. We think of her problems as our problems.
She is 7. She, like many children, often communicates in code either behavioral or verbally. If I choose to hear her as “complaining” instead of “expressing her need in the best way she is capable of”, chances are I wouldn’t want to fix her problem either.
It is interesting that you mention about the couch being problematic. We are currently trying to resolve differences about the best (newest best) placement of our sofa, and some of the related furniture. I choose to hear Jayn as expressing her preferences, rather than complaining. I don’t know how old and mature she will be when she becomes ready and able to practice higher orders of communication, but in the mean time, I guess I am trying to practice higher orders of listening.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Pamela Sorooshian
Complaints fall leaden to the floor, partly because they're poor communication, in my opinion.
Sandra Dodd
Well, even that, as I think more, I'm pretty often willing to be the
person someone can vent to - someone close to me - like my kids and
husband and closest friends/sisters. Many times people need to
complain and feel heard before they can turn their attention to
Sometimes I've vented to Pam myself.
I was vented to by a couple of people just this week. It's okay with
me. Sometimes they want to have me play devil's advocate, so they
can wrestle the other side of the question without actually wrestling
the other person. They want to try their ideas out or their possible
solutions without confronting the other entity yet or ever.
When I cut expensive cloth, I like to have a witness. I speak out
loud what I think I'm doing and the other person (someone who also
sews) spots me on what I might be forgetting.
Sometimes a social situation is like expensive cloth. There's only
one opportunity to act, and it can be helpful to have thought through
possible responses or problems before approaching the moment.
Sometimes a physical situation is like expensive cloth. One *could*
buy this car or that, or a new house, or take a job, or enroll in (or
drop out of) an expensive college, but first they need to recite
their reasons to someone who can spot fallacies in the logic, or
point out what they've forgotten.
What some people might see as complaining others can see as
processing ideas or emotions.
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
What some people might see as complaining others can see as processing ideas or emotions.
haha...@sio.midco.net
> but in the mean time, I guess I am trying to
> practice higher orders of listening.
>
Oh these words are golden! 99% of my "issues" with Hayden do not lie with him,
but in the filters of my *own* mind... it's in my "listening" NOT in his
"message"... as I listen better, by exercising my far-more-experienced listening
skills, he will communicate more effectively-- no, WE will communicate more
effectively :)
~diana :^)