Unschooling and University for academically rigorous disciplines
BigNut
At first I was unable to even think about unchooling, although the
concept was attractive to me. After the sky did not fall during the
first year, I have been able to relax a little, and think more about
unschooling.
My main concerns are in regard are related to university admission of
an unschooler who professess an interest in academically rigorous
disciplines, in this case veterinary science, but it could apply to
other subjects.
I have written about it on our blog http://www.cronje.ca/article/59 if
anyone is interested to read my rather long post there, titled "If
unschooling is like sourdough, will it be served by fast-food-eating
universities?"
What I am interested in finding is any research that addressess this
issue. Any pointers would be much appreciated.
Regards
BigNut
http://www.cronje.ca/
Sandra Dodd
issue. Any pointers would be much appreciated.
You probably won't find much research, but if you want real
information you can synthesize yourself, stick around!
Here are some things that might help you.
http://sandradodd.com/teens (there's a college link there, and one
about writing)
http://sandradodd.com/research
Sandra
BigNut
> You probably won't find much research, but if you want real
> information you can synthesize yourself, stick around!
I understand the "real information" you are alluding to, but
well-researched information is also real, and would be helpful in this
context.
>
> Here are some things that might help you.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/teens (there's a college link there, and one
> about writing)
>
> http://sandradodd.com/research
I already have several links in the article I mentioned to you and your
site.
BTW, this link:
>>www.homeschoolteenscollege.com<<
is defunct, leading to a "spamlink" site. (It is cited on the 2nd link
you sent)
My concerns address a very specific issue, one that is difficult to
answer with generalities, and those would also not be helpful when
approaching university application departments which tend not to deal
with anything other than hard facts.
Thank you for the input, though.
BigNut
http://cronje.ca
Sandra Dodd
>> www.homeschoolteenscollege.com<<
>>
is defunct, leading to a "spamlink" site. (It is cited on the 2nd link
you sent)
-=-
Bummer Cafi Cohen didn't keep her free page going as others have
generously done.
I'll remove the link. Thanks for letting me know.
I'll replace it with this one from the National Home Education
Network (NHEN):
http://www.nhen.org/teens/default.asp?id=2
That page would probably be a better resource for you than this list
if you're disdainful of what you have punctuated as "real
information." For years we have exchanged REAL information (not
"real" information), and if you're sure that won't help you, it
probably won't.
-=-I understand the "real information" you are alluding to-=-
I don't think you begin to understand it, but that doesn't harm the
rest of us.
-=-My concerns address a very specific issue, one that is difficult to
answer with generalities-=-
Real learning is about generalities.
REAL learning, not "real learning" and not rote school-style short-
term "learning."
Very often people come here thinking they know the exact answer they
need, without knowing they didn't even know what questions to ask.
-=-My concerns address a very specific issue, one that is difficult to
answer with generalities, and those would also not be helpful when
approaching university application departments which tend not to deal
with anything other than hard facts.-=-
Your assumption that admissions officers want hard facts has been
disproven by dozens of unschoolers who went to college without such
traditional facts. If two applicants both lived assembly-line lives
and they're nearly indistinguishable, maybe it will make a difference
that one got an A instead of a B in chemistry, or that one was the
captain of the field hockey team instead of just a player.
None of that applies to unschoolers, who often fall under a college's
quota of special/exceptional students. If a college promises
diversity and an interesting student body, they're less likely to get
it if they go just by "hard facts" and have 300 or 10,000
valedictorians who were cheerleaders (or football players) and play
piano.
Sandra
Betsy Hill
My concerns address a very specific issue, one that is difficult to
answer with generalities, and those would also not be helpful when
approaching university application departments which tend not to deal
with anything other than hard facts.**
They are the ones that can answer questions about admission requirements, not us.
Very little research has been done about unschooling. Most major research about homeschooling "results" is considered flawed because the children that were tested were not a random sample, but a (parentally) self-selected sample that chose to do testing.
Betsy
Sandra Dodd
As worthless as you seem to think it must be, but you're welcome.
I did look at your blog entry and have some clarifications you might
consider:
-=-Although one could be forgiven for thinking that school-at-home
and unschooling are mutually exclusive, this year we have learned
through our own experience, as well as those of others, that
unschooling is not all-or-nothing, that it is possible to blend in
some structured learning while retaining the benefits of unschooling.-=-
You could try to blend, but you will end up without the real benefits
of unschooling. I know that because others have tried and come back
and expressed regret, or gone one elsewhere to say that unschooling
didn't work.
-=-The term unschooling originated with John Holt more in the late
1970s. Originally, the meaning he attributed to it was equivalent to
what we call homeschooling today. Over time, the definitions evolved.
Today, unschooling has a narrower meaning..."
John Holt's beliefs about how learning work didn't include or support
what people call school at home today. He assumed that those
interested in homeschooling because of things he had written would
know NOT to use school's methods, which he had debunked in several
books by the late 70's. He wrote of knowing that some families would
start with school-style learning, but he was confident they would
abandon it when they saw that it didn't work. John Holt never
advocated anything but what you've referred to as the narrower
meaning, though he did provide a forum (Growing Without Schooling) in
which more schoolish homeschoolers also wrote. He hoped they would
recover, I believe, from things he himself wrote.
Did John Holt do research, y'think? He taught for many years and
observed and wrote. It was the same sort of real information you
could read if you had time and desire to learn about unschooling from
people who have actually done it, and many of them for more years
than the revered yet childless Mr. John Holt was in a classroom. He
had no personal experience with unschooling, and what he wrote was
mostly his imaginings about what could be better for those kids in
school with whom he was dealing.
-=-When it comes to unschooling, I am a coward.-=-
I'm not. Hundreds of families are as confident as can be.
I'm guessing from your blog that your daughter is very young, so even
if you knew at this moment by magic what every veterinary college in
the world wanted this year, the answer in ten years might be very,
very different.
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
well-researched information is also real, and would be helpful in this
context. >>>
Asking questions here is not your only source of information, fortunately.
There are a couple boards on the www.unschooling.info/forum that deal with
college as a topic.
You might also find Peter Kowalke's research and articles interesting -
www.grownwithoutschooling.com . His and his wife's sites are linked from
Sandra's site also. He is collecting and publishing "where are they now"
stories, including many college graduates.
Unschooling working looks unique in every family. Most of us tend to
consider careful observation of our own children and connection with them to
be the *best* research. If you want information about college admissions
requirements and statistics about home schoolers being admitted, maybe
asking the specific college of interest would be helpful.
We have one kind of information to offer here, anecdotal, experiential, yet
still a body of knowledge that is ever growing, with commonalities woven
into the experiences.
One of the commonalities is that Unschooled kids, upon discovering an
interest that genuinely fires them up, including vocational interests that
are well served by college enrollment, do what ever it takes to pursue those
interests, with their parent's encouragement and help. This sometimes
includes voluntarily embarking on rigorous academic studies to cover
enrollment pre-requisites or sitting examinations. Sometimes the college
entrance exam is the first formal examination the Unschoolers have sat for.
Sometimes the kids do "remedial" college level studies for a while to get
the feel of it. Sometimes kids do community college courses then transfer
"up" once they are confident in their choices.
For Unschooled kids, reportedly, repeatedly, "successful" college prep (by
which I mean they get accepted by the institution) takes not 12+ years of
schooled labor, but anything from a couple of months to a year or so
compatibly slotted in with other activities in their vigorously busy lives.
You say your kid is interested in veterinary science. So have many others
been. There are stories of kids volunteering with vets, zoos or animal
shelters, befriending vets or animal breeders, joining 4H programs, doing
all kinds of activities to find joy in pursuing that interest today, now, in
the present, and letting the college admissions concerns wait until the
interest solidifies into a mature intention. I suggest back issue of Live
Free, Learn Free ( www.livefreelearnfree.com ) and Life Learning (
www.lifelearningmagazine.com ) magazines for some real examples.
How old is your child? What is asked for by colleges today may not be what
is considered important in a few years. What is fascinating today may not
(or may) be their lifelong vocation.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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BigNut
> That page would probably be a better resource for you than this list
> if you're disdainful of what you have punctuated as "real
> information."
I am not sure what you mean by disdain. If you feel I was following a
dictionary definition of disdain, say:
regarded with contempt and aversion
>From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48
[gcide]
why would I bother to write here? You misread my writing.
For years we have exchanged REAL information (not
> "real" information), and if you're sure that won't help you, it
> probably won't.
Of course I am not sure ( I posted, didn't I? ), but I do know what
information would help, and hoped to find that. If there is other
information that could help, I would be glad to have it.
So, I ask:
Please define for me the difference between "REAL information (not
"real" information)". If you wonder, I was quoting you, hence the
quotes. Is REAL an acronym? If so, I did misread you, and I apologize.
> Real learning is about generalities.
> REAL learning, not "real learning" and not rote school-style short-
> term "learning."
Well, I hope the next time you fly in an airplane, your pilot has some
specific learning. Ditto for having your hip fixed when it breaks. Or
when your farm has a case of anthrax, and the vet arrives.
In order to prepare for life, some folks need simple factual knowledge
in order to perform their jobs.
> Very often people come here thinking they know the exact answer they
> need, without knowing they didn't even know what questions to ask.
Wow. Perhaps then you would help. What wrong questions did I ask? What
would be the right question to ask? Not to start a war here, but I have
real concerns, ones that I am trying to solve. Perhaps I did not ask
them in an appropriate way, or perhaps I did not use the correct
"unschool-speak", if there is such a thing. If so, I apologize. But I
will not apologize for asking specific questions, even if they do not
meet with your approval.
I am not interested in addressing the fact that unschooled folks are
much better prepared for life. My article very clearly articulates that
I already believe that. It also states very clearly that an unschooled
person should do better at university once they are accepted.
> Your assumption that admissions officers want hard facts has been
> disproven by dozens of unschoolers who went to college without such
> traditional facts.
Great. THAT is something that would help me very much. Could you point
me to any unschoolers who went to college who meet the criteria I am
currently researching?:
1. Someone who was not unschooled their whole life
2. Someone who took studies in what I termed as having rigorous
application criteria, such as veterinary science, medicine, dentistry,
etc.
I have tried to find such folks on the web, as yet to no avail. A lot
of folks go to what I can only refer to as "soft colleges". I have no
argument with that. I am simply not looking at that right now.
I ordered the book:
STRAIGHT TALK TO
PARENTS & TEENS
FROM HOMESCHOOL GRADS
Jim Erskine
Homeway Press
and found the information there pretty useless in researching this
issue, for that very reason.
> None of that applies to unschoolers, who often fall under a college's
> quota of special/exceptional students.
Special maybe, but not all of us are exceptional (extrememly gifted)
That is the problem with the Stanford article I alluded to. My daughter
is the most special child I know. That does not make her exceptional in
the eyes of the university.
> If a college promises
> diversity and an interesting student body, they're less likely to get
> it if they go just by "hard facts" and have 300 or 10,000
> valedictorians who were cheerleaders (or football players) and play
> piano.
Your assumption that hard facts have little relevance to success is
correct. However, all that is of no avail if my daughter needs some or
other hard fact in order to successfully apply to university. I have
never heard of "valedictorians who were cheerleaders" as being a
criterion for admission. Perhaps there are such universities.
Sincerely
BigNut
BigNut
Betsy Hill wrote:
> They are the ones that can answer questions about admission requirements, not us.
Yes. I have researched some, with mainly disappointing results. I was
looking for some other information.
> Very little research has been done about unschooling
It is a difficult thing to research. Also, there seems to be such an
anti-establishment feel in some circles, that it is difficult to bring
the two together.
I appreciate your remarks
BigNut
BigNut
> -=-Thank you for the input, though.-=-
>
> As worthless as you seem to think it must be, but you're welcome.
Please read my words for what they were. I simply said:
Thank you for your input, and I meant it.
> You could try to blend, but you will end up without the real benefits
> of unschooling. I know that because others have tried and come back
> and expressed regret, or gone one elsewhere to say that unschooling
> didn't work.
Sheesh. In that quote I reference YOUR article "Balancing in the Middle
Ground" (those darn quotes again). I read it to mean that it is
possible to have some structure in an unschooling environment. Is that
not what you meant?
> Did John Holt do research, y'think? He taught for many years and
> observed and wrote. It was the same sort of real information you
> could read if you had time and desire to learn about unschooling from
> people who have actually done it, and many of them for more years
> than the revered yet childless Mr. John Holt was in a classroom. He
> had no personal experience with unschooling, and what he wrote was
> mostly his imaginings about what could be better for those kids in
> school with whom he was dealing.
But you misunderstand my questions. I am not asking whether anybody has
determined whether or not unschooling is better that homeschooling or
public school. I am asking whether any specific research has been done
regarding acceptance at university regarding specific courses of study.
> I'm not. Hundreds of families are as confident as can be.
Yes, well, I'm less anxious about it than before. But those hundreds of
confident families do not help my anxieties if they do not have
experience of the issue that is causing me concern.
> I'm guessing from your blog that your daughter is very young, so even
> if you knew at this moment by magic what every veterinary college in
> the world wanted this year, the answer in ten years might be very,
> very different.
She is 10 going on 45. I am aware of how things might change. I am
simply trying to get a grip on how things are now.
Once again, thank you for the input. This discourse IS valuable to me.
Sincerely
BigNut
Elissa Jill Cleaveland
application criteria, such as veterinary science, medicine, dentistry,
etc.
All of the "rigorous application criteria" for the above programs are taken
at the Undergraduate level. All are masters or graduate level. One can major
in Biology and then apply to the upper level schools. Really, what one takes
at the high school level doesn't mean a whit.
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
Pamela Sorooshian
We have been homeschooling our daughter for the past year.
BigNut
> college as a topic.
I did not find anything there that addressed my topic directly when I
was researching the article I wrote. I chose this group because it
seemed to have more traffic, and I realized that my question was
probably relatively peripheral to the interests of a large proportion
of unschoolers.
>
> You might also find Peter Kowalke's research and articles interesting -
> www.grownwithoutschooling.com . His and his wife's sites are linked from
> Sandra's site also. He is collecting and publishing "where are they now"
> stories, including many college graduates.
I have already bought another book, which was not really useful. (See
my post a few above). The folks he references on the website have not
attempted the directions of study I am asking about. Have you seen the
video? Do you think it will help?
> We have one kind of information to offer here, anecdotal, experiential, yet
> still a body of knowledge that is ever growing, with commonalities woven
> into the experiences.
And anecdotal evidence can be useful too, especially if it is specific.
I was kinda hoping someone would pop up and say: "I'm a vet, and I was
unschooled, and this is what I experienced". Or somesuch.
> One of the commonalities is that Unschooled kids, upon discovering an
> interest that genuinely fires them up, including vocational interests that
> are well served by college enrollment, do what ever it takes to pursue those
> interests, with their parent's encouragement and help. This sometimes
> includes voluntarily embarking on rigorous academic studies to cover
> enrollment pre-requisites or sitting examinations. Sometimes the college
> entrance exam is the first formal examination the Unschoolers have sat for.
> Sometimes the kids do "remedial" college level studies for a while to get
> the feel of it. Sometimes kids do community college courses then transfer
> "up" once they are confident in their choices.
Yes. Of course, my style is to research things to death BEFORE they are
needed. I was also thinking that by being prepared one need not have to
go the remedial route.
> For Unschooled kids, reportedly, repeatedly, "successful" college prep (by
> which I mean they get accepted by the institution) takes not 12+ years of
> schooled labor, but anything from a couple of months to a year or so
> compatibly slotted in with other activities in their vigorously busy lives.
Yes, I have come up with that conclusion as well.
> You say your kid is interested in veterinary science. So have many others
> been. There are stories of kids volunteering with vets, zoos or animal
> shelters, befriending vets or animal breeders, joining 4H programs, doing
> all kinds of activities to find joy in pursuing that interest today, now, in
> the present, and letting the college admissions concerns wait until the
> interest solidifies into a mature intention.
Doing some of that already.
> How old is your child?
10
>What is asked for by colleges today may not be what
> is considered important in a few years.
I do understand that.
What is fascinating today may not
> (or may) be their lifelong vocation.
I understand that.
Thank you very much for your response, Robyn
BigNut
BigNut
> at the Undergraduate level. All are masters or graduate level. One can major
> in Biology and then apply to the upper level schools. Really, what one takes
> at the high school level doesn't mean a whit.
Oh, Wow!!!! You know, I missed that! I am not used to the North
American model, not having trained here. My training (medicine) implied
direct acceptance to a 6-year course. While I do know that the system
is different here, it somehow didn't connect in my brain.
[Jumps up and down]
Thank you!!
BigNut
Sandra Dodd
anti-establishment feel in some circles, that it is difficult to bring
the two together.
Researchers can't measure children who are at home because the
parents opted out of tests and measures.
Most research involves tests and measures, or longitudinal studies.
We have longitudinal data, but it's not all gathered up and charted
for you. You're welcome to read what's been collected by me, Joyce,
and others and to incorporate those ideas and points into your own
life and thinking, but it's not collated and completed because we're
not on university schedules with end-of-term, theses, dissertation,
matriculation, done moments. We're living with our kids. You won't
find better information on unschooling anywhere else, as far as I've
ever heard. If you do, let us know.
-=- Have you seen the
video? Do you think it will help?-=-
Peter Kowalke's video won't help you.
-=-But you misunderstand my questions.-=-
I'm pretty sure I didn't misunderstand the questions, nor the tone in
which they were asked. But that doesn't matter. We need to go
straight to discussing things in ways that will help others on the
list. It's not a help desk, it's a discussion group. http://
sandradodd.com/unschoolingdiscussion has the intent of the
listowners; I'm one of three.
-=-Sheesh. In that quote I reference YOUR article "Balancing in the
Middle
Ground" (those darn quotes again). -=-
Quoting the name of an article is fine. Discussing "fresh" fish or
"real information" seems to indicate a lack of faith in their
freshness or value.
-=- But those hundreds of confident families do not help my anxieties
if they do not have
experience of the issue that is causing me concern.-=-
Your concern and your issue are part of the fabric of the concerns of
all new unschoolers. You need to understand unschooling in its
essence, not in one or five or twelve chosen points. The answer to
your specific question is the answer to hundreds of other questions,
and if you understood the answer to some of those, you wouldn't need
to ask yours.
-=--=-Thank you for the input, though.-=-
>
> As worthless as you seem to think it must be, but you're welcome.
>
Please read my words for what they were. I simply said:
Thank you for your input, and I meant it.-=-
You wrote "Thank you for the input, though." with a "though" you
chose and wrote and posted, after saying something negative about my
response. Don't tell me it was nothing. We all need to mean what we
write and stand by it. It's important to any discussion like this
that people are honest and careful and open to input. None of this
writing is required or assigned. It's real-world writing for the
purpose of making children's lives better.
-=Of course, my style is to research things to death BEFORE they are
needed. I was also thinking that by being prepared one need not have to
go the remedial route.-=-
It's only remediation if she missed it the first time. If she waits
until she's 18 to learn to drive, it's not remedial driver's ed, it's
REAL, plain driver's ed. If she takes it at 14 or 15 against her
will and doesn't pay attention and doesn't pass the course, then
maybe the next time could be considered remediation.
Waiting until one has a need to know isn't the remedial route. It's
learning.
-=-, my style is to research things to death BEFORE they are
needed-=-
What's needed most with a ten year old is for you to be with her now,
doing things she's interested in now. If you research for the next
six years, you'll miss her being ten, and miss her being eleven, and
miss her being twelve... If you're here with her now in this moment,
fully present, discovering things about her interests and thoughts
that no teacher ever could have discovered, that most parents never
take time to discover, that will help her get into college and make
her a better person than anything else you could do. Other good
things will follow from it if you focus on the relationship with her
now.
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
And anecdotal evidence can be useful too, especially if it is specific.
I was kinda hoping someone would pop up and say: "I'm a vet, and I was
unschooled, and this is what I experienced". Or somesuch.
Sandra Dodd
would be the right question to ask? Not to start a war here, but I have
You're asking for something that doesn't exist, for purposes of a
situation that's way down the road.
You're worrying about things that haven't happened, might not happen,
about which worrying doesn't help a bit.
You might have asked how to gain confidence in unschooling. You
might've asked what kinds of things would help a ten year old move
more toward veterinary practice, but then we would ask what her
specific interests are—horses? Kittens? Goats? Wounded birds? Fish
and wildlife? Zoo animals? Pet rats? Injuries or diseases or
reproduction or what?
If her interest is really the name of a possible profession that she
has named to satisfy parents that she has a goal, we might have ideas
about that too that could help you both.
You're trying to solve a hypothetical concern about something that
might never happen. There are WAY more important things to do if
you're going to unschool.
Sandra
BigNut
> situation that's way down the road.
So what? I cannot ask a hypothetical question?
> You're worrying about things that haven't happened, might not happen,
> about which worrying doesn't help a bit.
How can you know what would help me or not? It might not help you, but
you are not the one asking the question.
> You might have asked how to gain confidence in unschooling.
You don't seem to get that is exactly what I am trying to do, about a
very specific concern I have. I have already told you about confidence
I do have.
> If her interest is really the name of a possible profession that she
> has named to satisfy parents that she has a goal, we might have ideas
> about that too that could help you both.
You know, Sandra, up until this statement, I truly believed you wished
to help, even if it was in an abrasive way. What do you know about me,
our specific circumstances. The world does not neatly fit into the bowl
you would like us all to swim in.
> You're trying to solve a hypothetical concern about something that
> might never happen. There are WAY more important things to do if
> you're going to unschool.
You arrogance is amazing.
BigNut
BigNut
You're probably right. After all, this is the only list I chose? ;-)
If I did though, would you recognize it?
> Peter Kowalke's video won't help you.
I'd be happy to learn your reasons.
> I'm pretty sure I didn't misunderstand the questions, nor the tone in
> which they were asked. But that doesn't matter. We need to go
> straight to discussing things in ways that will help others on the
> list. It's not a help desk, it's a discussion group. http://
> sandradodd.com/unschoolingdiscussion has the intent of the
> listowners; I'm one of three.
>
> -=-Sheesh. In that quote I reference YOUR article "Balancing in the
> Middle
> Ground" (those darn quotes again). -=-
>
> Quoting the name of an article is fine. Discussing "fresh" fish or
> "real information" seems to indicate a lack of faith in their
> freshness or value.
Well, perhaps that is how you lreference the words of others. I did it
the way I learned to. You impute sarcasm to me. I know I had none.
>You need to understand unschooling in its
> essence, not in one or five or twelve chosen points. The answer to
> your specific question is the answer to hundreds of other questions,
> and if you understood the answer to some of those, you wouldn't need
> to ask yours.
You know, that is simply a cop out. I have heard the same from snake
oil salesman type who suggest that I simply don't understand why some
or other thing is better than another.
> You wrote "Thank you for the input, though." with a "though" you
> chose and wrote and posted, after saying something negative about my
> response. Don't tell me it was nothing.
I'm not telling you it was nothing, I am telling you that I was
greatful. You do not know me, or know the turn of phrase I may use. I
know what I meant when I wrote it.
>It's important to any discussion like this
> that people are honest and careful and open to input.
So now you are suggesting that I am dishonest.
> It's only remediation if she missed it the first time. If she waits
> until she's 18 to learn to drive, it's not remedial driver's ed, it's
> REAL, plain driver's ed. If she takes it at 14 or 15 against her
> will and doesn't pay attention and doesn't pass the course, then
> maybe the next time could be considered remediation.
I was referring to the text of another poster who used those words. I
did not choose to give her the lecture, you can do that if you wish.
> If you research for the next
> six years, you'll miss her being ten, and miss her being eleven, and
> miss her being twelve... If you're here with her now in this moment,
> fully present, discovering things about her interests and thoughts
> that no teacher ever could have discovered, that most parents never
> take time to discover, that will help her get into college and make
> her a better person than anything else you could do. Other good
> things will follow from it if you focus on the relationship with her
> now.
>
Oh, what vaccillating poppycock!!!
Of course, the moment, the now is important. What, do you honestly
think that I will "research for the next six years" by sitting in a
room somewhere?
I am sorry I ever posted here.
If this is the tone that you as one of the 3 founders sets, I should
not be here.
To everyone else who replied, thank you for you input.
This will be my last post.
BigNut
Betsy Hill
I am asking whether any specific research has been done
regarding acceptance at university regarding specific courses of study.**
Aren't vet schools grad schools, where students get a DVM degree, with "D" being "doctorate"? I haven't researched this myself, but wouldn't only college performance be relevant for vet school admission, with high school grades being lost in the mists of time?
Shouldn't the question of whether unschooling can take one into vet school be broken down into the question of whether unschooling can get one into a suitable college and a second question of whether a suitable college can get one into vet school?
(OK, I see the above got answered already.)
**The folks he references on the website have not
attempted the directions of study I am asking about. **
I want to say that one or more unschooled kids getting into vet school doesn't predict whether another child will be admitted or not. That said, you might want to see if you can get books by the Colfaxes from your library. Some of their homeschooled kids went to Harvard and on to med school. And your daughter might enjoy the stories about goat-raising -- part of their very informal "curriculum".
**
And anecdotal evidence can be useful too, especially if it is specific.
I was kinda hoping someone would pop up and say: "I'm a vet, and I was
unschooled, and this is what I experienced".**
I went to a college that has a vet school (UC Davis) and had a next door neighbor who wanted to be a vet and all I can tell you is lots of kids aspire to be vets and the number of slots in the school is small.
If animals are her passion, and she choses to spend lots of time tending animals, then she'll likely retain facts about animals more readily than someone just looking at a textbook.
Betsy
mac...@xtra.co.nz
Alan Thomas have done some research on Informal Education which I
believe is how children learn in an unschooling philosophy. Have a look
at
http://www.infed.org/biblio/home-education.htm
He says
"What excites him is the discovery that children at home do not learn
in the same way as those in school. He says they learn in fast,
unpredictable bursts which are not amenable to conventional
timetabling; this, he says, could bring about "the most fundamental
change in our understanding of children's learning since the advent of
universal schooling in the 19th century". If the lessons and benefits
of home-education could be understood and taken on board by the system,
fewer people might want to do it and the system might benefit."
See
http://education.guardian.co.uk/egweekly/story/0,5500,856719,00.html
I would highly recommend you have a look at Educating Your Child at
Home by Jane Lowe, Alan Thomas. Here is a link
Cheers
Dalene
Another SA Expat (Thanks for the koeksister recipe on your blog)
Anna Finklestein
Hang in there. Deschooling can be a very scary and vulnerable place. You aren't alone. My father, in particular, had a lot of similar questions as you. He wanted to see statistics. How many unschoolers actually go onto college...? Where do they go...? etc. At first, I tried to answer those questions, concretely. I surfed the web and came to him with countless examples of unschoolers who went to college. It still wasn't enough. I didn't understand. What more could I give him?
It has only occurred to me, months later, that there was nothing I could give him to satisfy his thirst for something he could hold in his hand. You can't hold happiness, passion--unless you count a hug! Unschooling means trust. Therefore, in my opinion, to truly unschool, one needs to get beyond these questions, not fight for answers. Does that make sense?
If your daughter really wants to become a vet, whenever the time may be, she will--no matter how many textbooks and tests she has to suffer through. A true motivation will produce true commitment.
Good luck!
BigNut <goo...@cronje.ca> wrote:
Groups are talking. We’re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups.
mac...@xtra.co.nz
age of 20, which means they don't even ask what you've done before 20.
So, if my children want to go to University I don't think there will be
any harm in waiting until they're 20. You might have a similar policy?
Dalene
Robyn Coburn
> until she's 18 to learn to drive, it's not remedial driver's ed, it's
> REAL, plain driver's ed. If she takes it at 14 or 15 against her
> will and doesn't pay attention and doesn't pass the course, then
> maybe the next time could be considered remediation.
I was referring to the text of another poster who used those words. I
did not choose to give her the lecture, you can do that if you wish. >>>>
You know, *I* used the word "remedial" because I was trying to reference the
title that the colleges themselves might give to these courses that are
usually taken by schooled kids who *almost* fulfill whatever academic
requirements are expected, from their high school coursework. I couldn't
come up with a word that didn't sound worse.
I didn't really feel right about the word in reference to Unschooled kids,
like it shouldn't apply to us or imply a lack of any kind in us, but hadn't
thought about why until the above explanation - which was why I was using
the quotation marks around it.
I have had my share of "lectures", by which I mean helpful challenges, in
the past about poor writing, dumb notions, and blindness - not to mention
just being really pompous.
Analogy/fairy tale time:
A person comes to the scuba diving list, and says he wants to learn to scuba
dive, and which are the best boats to take him to the Marianas Trench?
Everyone offers a whole lot of suggestions about dive shops, certification,
scuba gear, masks, keeping safe and healthy, their experiences diving
recreationally in the Caribbean, Fiji, Bali, and the Great Barrier Reef.
Others can tell about their uncle who is a police or rescue diver, or their
cousin in the Navy. Some people go off on cool tangents about snorkeling,
cruising, NASA, reef biology and cool movies that feature scuba diving real
and nonsensical.
The original poster says that, yeah he's heard of all this "stuff", but what
about getting to the Marianas Trench?
A couple of people, including someone who has been to the Marianas Trench in
a submarine, suggest that maybe that is a pretty big thing to be aiming for
directly, that there are a lot of things that might need to be addressed
long before going there, but you know that information is readily available
from boating sources and travel agents.
"You so-and-so's won't answer my question. I want the best boat to the
Marianas Trench!!!!!"
Reply: Oh we thought you wanted to learn to scuba dive.
Betsy Hill
could give him to satisfy his thirst for something he could hold in his
hand. You can't hold happiness, passion--unless you count a hug!
Unschooling means trust. Therefore, in my opinion, to truly unschool,
one needs to get beyond these questions, not fight for answers. Does
Yes, it makes sense to me!. Unschooling doesn't let you control the
outcome -- unschooling is not about control.
(Reading _Parent Teen Breakthrough_ will amplify what I mean. The
belief that we can successfully control our children until age 18 is
fraught w. peril. <g>)
Betsy
mamaa...@yahoo.com
> He says they learn in fast,
> unpredictable bursts which are not amenable to conventional
> timetabling;
That is so key to deschooling ourselves and accepting what unschooled
kids will look like. Most of us have tons of expectations of learning
happening in small, repetative chunks. We believe that's still a good
way to learn, but it will be okaaayyy if our kids do it differently.
But no! It's not necessarily good. Someone posted not too long ago
about trying to resist the urge to get the kids to do one Sudoko puzzle
a day. Is that really a good way to learn? Some of us would do better
at partially doing a bunch of them at one time. Or doing half of one,
then moving on to another. Or watching somebody else do them, talking
about how to do it, etc.
--aj
mac...@xtra.co.nz
when a child makes new meaning of something in a 5 minute discussion,
compared to studying a topic for weeks in school situation.
What you're talking about I call hyperfocusing. I've done that all my
life and my children do too. Spend days on the computer to master a new
programme and then don't touch it for weeks. However, they still learn
in the way Alan Thomas suggested too.
Dalene
Betsy Hill
But no! It's not necessarily good. Someone posted not too long ago
about trying to resist the urge to get the kids to do one Sudoko puzzle
a day. Is that really a good way to learn? Some of us would do better
at partially doing a bunch of them at one time. Or doing half of one,
then moving on to another. Or watching somebody else do them, talking
about how to do it, etc. **
I do Sudoku puzzles from the newspaper, with the answer printed right next to them, but upside down. I usually only do "easy" puzzles and often when I'm feeling stuck or about to get frustrated, then I *cheat* and look at part of the answer. If I do these puzzles on the internet I can also cheat by making guesses and asking whether they are right.
My 12 year old son comes over and participates when my husband does a Sudoku puzzle. They work on it cooperatively.
Assigning one puzzle a day seems like a sure way to erode someone's interest and pleasure in doing puzzles.
Betsy
Robyn Coburn
next to them, but upside down. I usually only do "easy" puzzles and often
when I'm feeling stuck or about to get frustrated, then I *cheat* and look
at part of the answer. If I do these puzzles on the internet I can also
cheat by making guesses and asking whether they are right.>>>>
My dh bought me a little electronic Sudoku puzzle machine. It is great
because it has levels, and it has a feature on the easier levels where it
flashes if you have put the wrong number in.
lcha...@gmail.com
>
> I know lots of unschooled kids who have gone on to professional
> schools such as veterinary school, medical school, law school. They
> go to college first - do well there and then apply to grad/
> professional schools just like any other college graduate.
>
> Valerie Fitzenreiter wrote a book about her daughter's radical
> unschooling life - "The Unprocessed Child." Laurie, her daughter,
> went to Harvard at 18 and graduated summa cum laude.
Wow, I got an upgrade!
It was summa cum laude, but it was from McNeese State University, in my
hometown of Lake Charles, LA. Now I'm at Louisiana State University
working on my PhD.
-Laurie Chancey, the "unprocessed child"
Pamela Sorooshian
Valerie Fitzenreiter wrote a book about her daughter's radical
unschooling life - "The Unprocessed Child." Laurie, her daughter,
went to Harvard at 18 and graduated summa cum laude.
Wow, I got an upgrade!
It was summa cum laude, but it was from McNeese State University, in my
hometown of Lake Charles, LA. Now I'm at Louisiana State University
working on my PhD.
-Laurie Chancey, the "unprocessed child"
Jenny
Betsy Hill wrote:
> I went to a college that has a vet school (UC Davis) and had a next door neighbor who wanted to be a vet and all I can tell you is lots of kids aspire to be vets and the number of slots in the school is small.
>
> If animals are her passion, and she choses to spend lots of time tending animals, then she'll likely retain facts about animals more readily than someone just looking at a textbook.
>
> Betsy
This is true! You know I have a 12yo dd who has a passion for animals,
starting from when she was very little. She used to say she wanted to
train dophins when she was very little, then she wanted to be a marine
biologist, then she wanted to be a vet, now she's not sure, just knows
that she wants to work with animals.
Over the years the interest has stayed the same, I could have looked
into vet schools when she was 8 to see how to direct her there but that
would have been very presumptuous of me considering that she has since
decided that being a vet is not for her. She made an informed decision
based on animal surgery and the use of scapels on animals, knowing that
she could never stomach it no matter how much she would want to save
the life of an animal. Going to vet school is just one of a huge mass
of different types of careers one could have working with animals.
Kids change over the course of time, if given the freedom and trust
they will work through their likes and dislikes and passions and one
day find something that fits, or many things that fit. I have known
many people that have been many different things over the course of
their lives without ever defining themselves as one thing or another.
School doesn't make a person. I received a degree in dance and have
used that over the years, but it is not how I define myself. I have
used a number of different skills and passions througout the years.
Even if your child stuck with the idea of being a vet and went to vet
school, doesn't mean he/she would do that for the rest of their lives
or even find it fulfilling as a life's work. It's better to focus on
the here and now, enjoy the passion they have about animals and go
along with playing vet and watching vet shows on tv, and maybe one day
they will decide that being a vet is all there is to be and they WILL
set themselves to do that. A very determined person can do just about
anything they set their mind to.
There are many ways to love and experience animals in the mean time
that will directly relate to the goal of vet that your child has now
that have nothing to do with school, but it all counts towards the
young person developing and honing their passions and directing their
lives on that unknown path that leads to the future.
becca
I have read this with great interest, and would like to offer up my
personla experience with US higher education.
I can't say that I am a "real" (;->) unschooled person, actually I am
not one at all. I am from Sweden, and left junior high by choice as I
felt that I was not getting the grades I felt I deserved. I did not
want those teachers with their narrowmindedness and their grades to be
what prevented me from perhaps going to university later. I did not
wish their inability to deal with me on a personal level to become a
number on a transcript to follow me for the rest of my life.
SO I quit. I went travelling around the world, sailing, and ended up in
the States. Many moons later I decided I wanted to work with language
research, specifically with the link between language development and
psychosocial development. For doing this the way I wanted I found,
after having carefully reviewed the options, that I needed a degree. If
nothing else just to have access to existing bodies of knowledge,
funding etc.
So what could I do? In the US one could say that I was for all intents
and purposes unschooled, as I had NO schooling within the american
system, and no transcripts to convert/interpret from any other system.
The answer was very simple. First I finished high school in Sweden by
examinations, which took 4 months instead of 4 years. Then I went to
junior college for two years getting the prerequisite courses out of
the way. I then applied and got in to UCLA, NOT a sc "soft college" at
all. I graduated 2 years later in Psychology, Lingustics and a minor in
Neurology.
I now have available all resources I could dream of, and it took me 4
years. Nevermind that I have chosen to do something entirely
unrelated...
I am now unschooliong my first child, that is, we are unschooling
together. We are a happy family with very high degrees living on a
sailboat learning about life as we go. Dh and I have successfully
integrated our very high educations with life, and we are very content.
We laso know that our son can choose to do the same, when and if the
time comes.
BigNut, please don't worry. Higher education is easy to acquire if one
truly wants it. NO doors are closed to anyone, it is a matter of
knowing what you want, and then being able to go get it without being
hindered by preconceived notions of how things are supposed to be and
what peoples expectations are. Blow the expectiations! Your child will
know what to do, or find out, when he/she needs to. You are making
him/her able to do this by allowing him/her to grow without
schooling....trust me;DD
Rebecca
ps please forgive typo's and weird lingo, I am in a rush to feed the
family...