318's vs 350's

[Suzy-Q]

I have a 28' Sports Sedan with twin 318's. Engines were most likely
overhauled in mid-90's. The boat sat for many years, ran rough for a
while and it was not until late this summer that I got the engines
working well and could cruise at 2800-3000 rpm. (19 - 22 mph speedver
land at that rpm). After a few hours of cruising the starboard engine
started smoking when I returned from a fishing trip. The compression
was 120psi+ for all cylinders except #4 which was low at 60 psi. I
pulled the heads and found that the head gasket had failed. No water
in the oil just oil in cylinder #4.

I was planning on replacing the exhaust manifolds/elbows and risers on
both engines this winter which is not going to be cheap. Now I'm
faced with the decision to repair/replace the stbd engine as well. My
mechanic recommends repowering with new 350's and reusing the
transmissions (approx $22k). To install a rebuilt 318 would cost $8k -
$9k, including exhaust parts.

Anyone with experience in this area? Will the 350's be more
economical, provide more speed or be easier to maintain over the life
of the boat. I'm trying to talk myself into spending the money to
repower the boat and enjoy expensive but some hassle free fishing.

[Nick Latina]

I have rebuilt several engines over the years.  Both are good engines and I am a Mopar guy so I would stick with the 318's.  They are great engines, reliable and fairly economical.  Is the $9k to rebuild both or just one?  That being said, if you want to lay out the cash the 350 is a great reliable powerplant with tons of aftermarket goodies and a few more HP.    But $22k seems very spendy for such a common engine in stock form.  These can be found around my area for about $1500 each off of a fresh rebuild with a warranty, manifolds, etc..  For that much they should be supercharged and really make that Uni scream.  Those prices seem way high for what you are getting.  I would shop around.  I have rebuilt a few small block and big block mopars with aftermarket goodies for about $1000 bucks in parts.  Install shouldn't be much more than that either as long as it is on a trailer and you can get the engines out with an overhead hoist.   --- On Sun, 12/5/10, Suzy-Q <crawford....@navy.mil> wrote:

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[Kerry Lebel]

I agree on the pricing.  That is insane.  A 4 bolt main 350 reman engine can be had for under $1500 per side.  $22k is just highway robbery.  Have you used this mechanic before?  Before you drop that kind of dough I would get at least two other estimates.  It is worth your time.  Personal, I love the 350.  It is the Swiss Army knife of engines.  Nick is right, their is a whole heap of aftermarket toys for those engines.  That being said though, if you are happy with your current power output and you know the 318 engines well, save yourself some cash just do another 318.  Now...if you feel that the other 318 might be close to rebuild state, you can save yourself some man hours and do both at once.  How many hours are on those engines?  If they were rebuilt in the mid 90's they have to be close...

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[john hamilton]

$11k for an engine sounds about right for a NEW, not rebuilt, engine and transmission setup, installed.  There will be some work changing over from older carbureted Chryslers to new Crusaders (the best inboards, see David Pasco's articles).  Different throttle linkage, wiring, motor mounts, possibly transmission linkage, raw water intake location, possibly gauges, etc. will have to be thought out and dealt with @ $100 per hour or whatever he's charging you.  Not difficult, but time consuming.  I've also rebuilt and hopped up my own Chrysler small block in my 27 Express Cruiser.  It's cheaper, but it takes a lot of time and that has it's own cost.  I had to deal with all of the above issues, among many other things, in my rebuild.  I love the result, but a big part of my enjoyment was the process of figuring things out and handling them successfully on my own.  Not everybody wants to do that.   The difference in performance between a stock 350 and a stock 318 in a big cruiser is not by itself worth the cost.  Big cruisers need torque, not horsepower.  Difference in hassle between an older carbureted engine and a new fuel injected one might be worth it to you.    If you are interested in performance, there are indeed a lot of outlets for perfrmance parts for Chevy marine engines.  Chrysler marine engines have fewer outlets, but it is quite possible to get serious horsepower and torque out of one even though Chrysler Marine quit making new products around 1986.  I'm getting 410 hp @ 5000 rpm and 500 lb-ft @2500 rpm out of a 360 block, according to my desktop dyno.   For myself, if the compression on your engines is good, I'd fix the old one until you spin a bearing or throw a rod (maybe not for quite a while), THEN put in new ones.  Spend the difference on gas. John

--- On Sun, 12/5/10, Suzy-Q <crawford....@navy.mil> wrote:

From: Suzy-Q <crawford....@navy.mil> Subject: [UnifliteWorld] 318's vs 350's To: "UnifliteWorld" <unifli...@googlegroups.com>

[Suzy-Q]

You guys are great! I'm a rookie at this and appreciate all of the
help. I will get a couple of other quotes and consider all of the
options including replacing the head gasket and hoping for the best.
I can save a lot of money for gas and tow rope.

[Marc Rovner]

The 318 is a good strong torque motor but old. If I went to 350 or big block even better I would want the roller rockers, modern vortec head and fuel

There are only two ways to live you're life One is as though nothing is a miracle, The other is as though everything is a miracle. I believe in the latter."
-- Albert Einstein

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[MV Ramblin - 32 SS]

IF you are starting over... consider new engines and transmissions to
start over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vwifTpXco4

Why not really enhance the value of the boat by making it better!

Back in 1999 the previous owner of my boat updated the boat with new
engines and new transmissions. Giving her a new lease on life. Then
I cleaned up the exterior and added a newer generator. She is good
for many more years of cruising and fishing.

If you are able to... I'd move up to Pod drives.

[ron hammill]

you will be happier in the long run with the 350s

> CC: unifli...@googlegroups.com
> From: marcr...@shaw.ca
> Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] Re: 318's vs 350's
> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 15:31:57 -0800
> To: unifli...@googlegroups.com

[Keith Washburn]

That's not a bad price if your talking about the crusader efi 350s I repowered my 32ss with the Crusader 8.1 efi I had 454s the efis are way more efficient and trouble free. My old engines gave me 13 to 15 knots sob at about 28 gph the new engines give me about 20 to 22 knots at the same fuel burn .

Sent from my iPad

[Suzy-Q]

Thanx Kenny,

The quote was for new carburated 350's. I don't know if they were
"Crusaders" or not. Is the "Cursader" an upgraded 350?

On Dec 6, 11:28 pm, Keith Washburn <overtime...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> That's not a bad price if your talking about the crusader efi 350s I repowered  my 32ss with the  Crusader 8.1 efi  I had 454s the efis are way more efficient and trouble free. My old engines gave me 13 to 15 knots sob at about 28 gph the new engines give me about 20 to 22 knots at the same fuel burn .
>
> Sent from my iPad
>

> On Dec 5, 2010, at 10:01 AM, Suzy-Q <crawford.hender...@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have a 28' Sports Sedan with twin 318's.  Engines were most likely
> > overhauled in mid-90's.  The boat sat for many years, ran rough for a
> > while and it was not until late this summer that I got the engines
> > working well and could cruise at 2800-3000 rpm. (19 - 22 mph speedver
> > land at that rpm).  After a few hours of cruising the starboard engine
> > started smoking when I returned from a fishing trip.  The compression
> > was 120psi+ for all cylinders except #4 which was low at 60 psi.  I
> > pulled the heads and found that the head gasket had failed.  No water
> > in the oil just oil in cylinder #4.
>
> > I was planning on replacing the exhaust manifolds/elbows and risers on
> > both engines this winter which is not going to be cheap.  Now I'm
> > faced with the decision to repair/replace the stbd engine as well.  My
> > mechanic recommends repowering with new 350's and reusing the
> > transmissions (approx $22k).  To install a rebuilt 318 would cost $8k -
> > $9k, including exhaust parts.
>
> > Anyone with experience in this area?  Will the 350's be more
> > economical, provide more speed or be easier to maintain over the life
> > of the boat.  I'm trying to talk myself into spending the money to
> > repower the boat and enjoy expensive but some hassle free fishing.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "UnifliteWorld" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to unifli...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to unifliteworl...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[John Strong]

Crusader is a marine engine company that uses GM cores.  Marine Power and Mercruiser use GM too.  I'm assuming you have Velvet Drive transmissions - they're simple and tough, and usually worth keeping.  I've got a Salty Dog with carbureted 350's and they will push the boat at 22 knots at around 3000.  Don't know the fuel burn.  Don't want to know! 

The new engines will come with new cooling systems, so be sure you get them with fresh-water-cooled exhaust manifolds.  The only raw water will be in the heat exchangers and the exhaust elbows.  You'll never need to replace the manifolds.  Bigger cooling systems may mean bigger thru-hulls, seacocks, strainers, etc.  Replace all the metal in the exhaust system with fiberglass, and replace all the hose too.

EFI will mean modifying the fuel tanks with return line fittings.  It may be time for new fuel tanks anyway.  You can get new tanks from Uniflite's original tank maker, Coastline Mfg. - they still have all the drawings.  As a portion of a repower, not all that expensive.

http://coastline-tanks.com/
http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/inboards/
http://www.marinepowerusa.com/replacement.php

Your Sport Sedan is *absolutely* worth repowering. What a great boat!  Replacing it with something new of equivalent quality would probably cost $200K.  You can do the repower for a tenth of that.  Go for it!

John Strong
stron...@yachtexpert.com

[Keith Washburn]

You can get efi without return lines but you may want to replace your tanks anyway.

Sent from my iPad

[john hamilton]

Most gas inboards are GM based.  That doesn't mean they're all the same.  Check this out. www.yachtsurvey.com\GasEngines.htm John --- On Wed, 12/8/10, John Strong <stron...@yachtexpert.com> wrote:

From: John Strong <stron...@yachtexpert.com> Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] Re: 318's vs 350's

[falcon...@wowway.com]

I have twin 318's in my 27', and this is my take on them. The 318 as
they are installed in Uniflite's is a really good marine conversion.
And, as you stated, they offer plenty of power without having to push
them very hard for these boats in the 27-28' range.

The 350 conversion is also a good engine, particularly if you get a
Crusader. With the Vortec heads and electronic ignition and fuel
injection, they would be much more powerful and efficient than the old
318, no doubt. A fresh, new pair of those would be a dream, but.....

You already listed the costs for the new 350"s, and just the engines
alone are substantial. Now you have to update everything else to
match: transmissions, wiring harnesses, gauges, fuel systems, shafts
and props, etc. This all adds up, not to mention the labor involved
with doing it correctly. It's gonna add up to a really big bill. And a
cost that, I hate to say it, you'll never recover. Not on resale
value; not on improved efficiency.

There are still plenty of parts available for the 318's. And finding
someone who could do a first-class rebuild on them shouldn't be too
hard either. Have them do you a top-notch job. Since they're the same
engines, they'll just slide in and out, everything will just bolt
right back up. Put the electronic ignition conversion's in and maybe
replace those Carter carb's with a slightly smaller set of Holley's.
Keep an eye on the cooling system and keep oil in them and they'll run
forever. I know of guy's with literally 3-4000 hours on their 318's.
Mine have 1500 hours on them and have never been cracked open, except
to change the exhaust manifolds. Do I run them hard? Hell, no--they're
forty years old, and I'm not going to ask for trouble!! But with the
install that you and I've got, you don't NEED to run them hard. I can
cruise at 27-2800 and get 18-19 knots, and, if I'm feeling sporty, I
kick her up to 31-3200 and make 22. Wide open is about 4200 and I'm
too scared to look at the speed!!

A pair on new 350EFI's are going to get you close to 300HP a piece (or
more). You just don't need all that power; you'll be paying for
capacity you really won't use. Will they be more fuel efficient? Yes,
somewhat, but you still need to feed 350 cubes, so it maybe 10-15%
better at best.

For the difference between the cost of the 318 rebuilds and the cost
of new 350's, fully installed, you can buy a WHOLE LOTTA gas!!!

Only you would know how much you use your boat. For me, it's a no-
brainer. Break-ever payback would be somewhere beyond 40 years. And by
then, I'm sure I'll have much more pressing concerns to worry about--
or maybe not a problem in the world!!

Good Luck!!

MAH

On Dec 8 2010, 12:15 pm, john hamilton <jahiv1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Most gas inboards are GM based.  That doesn't mean they're all the same.  Check this out.www.yachtsurvey.com\GasEngines.htm
>
> John
>
> --- On Wed, 12/8/10, John Strong <strongs...@yachtexpert.com> wrote:

>
> From: John Strong <strongs...@yachtexpert.com>
> Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] Re: 318's vs 350's
> To: unifli...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, December 8, 2010, 6:30 AM
>
> Crusader is a marine engine company that uses GM cores.  Marine Power and Mercruiser use GM too.  I'm assuming you have Velvet Drive transmissions - they're simple and tough, and usually worth keeping.  I've got a Salty Dog with carbureted 350's and they will push the boat at 22 knots at around 3000.  Don't know the fuel burn.  Don't want to know! 
>
> The new engines will come with new cooling systems, so be sure you get them with fresh-water-cooled exhaust manifolds.  The only raw water will be in the heat exchangers and the exhaust elbows.  You'll never need to replace the manifolds.  Bigger cooling systems may mean bigger thru-hulls, seacocks, strainers, etc.  Replace all the metal in the exhaust system with fiberglass, and replace all the hose too.
>
> EFI will mean modifying the fuel tanks with return line fittings.  It may be time for new fuel tanks anyway.  You can get new tanks from Uniflite's original tank maker, Coastline Mfg. - they still have all the drawings.  As a portion of a repower, not all that expensive.
>

> http://coastline-tanks.com/http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/inboards/http://www.marinepowerusa.com/replacement.php

>
> Your Sport Sedan is *absolutely* worth repowering. What a great boat!  Replacing it with something new of equivalent quality would probably cost $200K.  You can do the repower for a tenth of that.  Go for it!
>
> John Strong

> strongs...@yachtexpert.com

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[Suzy-Q]

Great stuff,

I really appreciate you taking the time to provide such a thorough
response, but where were you three weeks ago before I committed to the
350's? :). So far the plan is to keep the transmissions, shafts and
props. Egnines have carbs so no fuel tank mods. I'm going to keep my
318's and rebuild them. Ought to be a good project for my son who's
pursueing an engineering degree.


Thanx
again - Crawford


On Jan 5, 5:24 pm, "falcon50fl...@wowway.com"

> >http://coastline-tanks.com/http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/inboa...

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