Chinese copy Ultimaker & Ulticontroller on eBay!

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Scott Mayson

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:04:59 AM7/6/12
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Well it's happened if you have not seen it yet. Copy of the Ultimaker & Ulticontroller for $1,199.00 USD

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BlueBot-3D-printer-Assembled-and-ready-use-RepRap-software-based-/150848570944?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231f468640#ht_8978wt_1202

Scott

Daid

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:28:56 AM7/6/12
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Atleast it's not advertised as an Ultimaker. So Ultimaker support won't get any questions about problems with it.

I'm surprised that it's advertised at "fully assembled" with that price.

As for EBay Ultimaker clones. Your millage my vary. See this "great" extruder bolt for example: http://forum.ultimaker.com/viewtopic.php?p=6220#p6220

Joergen Geerds

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:29:31 AM7/6/12
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it's going to be a bit more than just ebay: http://bluebot3d.com/

selling a kit/copy on ebay is one thing, pulling a complete copy of the UM is another.

Scott Mayson

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:48:54 AM7/6/12
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They do link to the Ultimaker RepRap page for the RAMPS shield though!

Scott

Jelte

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:52:08 AM7/6/12
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Indeed. Looking at those videos I only notice one tiny difference;
something appears to be added on top of the extruder to keep the
bowden tube in place.

Jelte
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Dave Head

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:54:59 AM7/6/12
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ah yer beat me to it was just about to say that 

the stepper motor shafts dont seem to stick out as much on the sides. tho it i think there different motors





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Jelle Boomstra

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Jul 6, 2012, 9:26:11 AM7/6/12
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Ultimaking could end this rather quickly: file a complaint on ebay for licence violation. The drawings are licensed cc-sa-nc, of which the last part means non-commercial. This is a clear violation of that licence, ebay will deal with it swiftly. Ebay also removes fake rolex or other brand copies, so this should be no problem at all. The rightsholders are UM and they should make the complaint.
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Jelle Boomstra

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Jul 6, 2012, 9:30:44 AM7/6/12
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and how to file that complaint is explained here: http://pages.ebay.nl/help/confidence/programs-vero.html (dutch) or http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/programs-vero-ov.html (english)

ddurant

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Jul 6, 2012, 9:35:27 AM7/6/12
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> it's going to be a bit more than just ebay: http://bluebot3d.com/
 
Is that screal/Paul??

Scott Mayson

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Jul 6, 2012, 9:41:32 AM7/6/12
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And unfortunately as we know, your patent and ip are protected by deep pockets of cash :(
Their eBay feedback shows they were selling it as a "Ultimaker clone"!!!!

Scott

Joergen Geerds

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Jul 6, 2012, 10:06:28 AM7/6/12
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On Friday, July 6, 2012 8:54:59 AM UTC-4, kibble wrote:
the stepper motor shafts dont seem to stick out as much on the sides. tho it i think there different motors
They seem to have been working on the copy quite some time, since the motors are the specs from summer 2011, before UM switched to larger/stronger steppers for XY. 

Joergen Geerds

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Jul 6, 2012, 10:09:12 AM7/6/12
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On Friday, July 6, 2012 9:26:11 AM UTC-4, Jelle Boomstra wrote:
Ultimaking could end this rather quickly: file a complaint on ebay for licence violation. The drawings are licensed cc-sa-nc, of which the last part means non-commercial. This is a clear violation of that licence, ebay will deal with it swiftly. Ebay also removes fake rolex or other brand copies, so this should be no problem at all. The rightsholders are UM and they should make the complaint.

that will only help for the ebay sales, and it would be easy to wiggle around it by opening a new ebay store every 4 weeks (it's china after all). the main problem will be the main site. 

Daid

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Jul 6, 2012, 10:34:41 AM7/6/12
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And Ultimaking will keep updating their kit with improvements. Like the new V3 bolt, and maybe in the future a heated bed, or a newer hotend. So these kinds of copies will always be behind them.

BlueBot

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Jul 6, 2012, 10:39:45 AM7/6/12
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Hi Dave

No it's not me!!! Can't say I'm please that they nicked my name :D

Paul

Dave Head

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Jul 6, 2012, 10:41:07 AM7/6/12
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in some ways it could push UM to push upgrades out faster.

ddurant

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Jul 6, 2012, 10:43:58 AM7/6/12
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Ohh.. Ok.. Just checking.. :)

Florian Horsch

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Jul 6, 2012, 11:24:07 AM7/6/12
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On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 3:35 PM, ddurant <ddur...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is that screal/Paul??

Hahaha - @Paul: They even ripped your color man! YOU should file a complain.

What a mess...

Cheers
Flo

Daid

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Jul 6, 2012, 11:32:19 AM7/6/12
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Any chance they are trying to use his reputation? My first reaction was "Paul wouldn't do something like this", but I can immagine that other people think "BlueBot, that's a respected RepRap member"

Gijs de Zwart

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Jul 6, 2012, 11:33:34 AM7/6/12
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I'm pretty sure that even THAT is true...



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Florian Horsch

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Jul 6, 2012, 11:57:22 AM7/6/12
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@Paul: Just admit it. It's you ;)

I filed a complain at Vimeo. He's not only advertising a clone product there, but also doesn't have a Plus or Pro account.

It's just wrong.
Flo

Mr. Seeker

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Jul 6, 2012, 12:50:03 PM7/6/12
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Those guys did it before...

Its exactly the same guys who "cloned" the UM couple of weeks ago...

Chinese cant learn, can they? At least nobody can complain its an Ultimaker ;)

On Friday, July 6, 2012 2:04:59 PM UTC+2, Scott Mayson wrote:

Bradley

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Jul 6, 2012, 1:12:15 PM7/6/12
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This is the "other edge" of the double edge of open source designs.

Jelle Boomstra

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Jul 6, 2012, 1:16:25 PM7/6/12
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It would be nice if UM acknowledged the problem, but otherwise our talk will amount to little effect. Stamping them out every 4 weeks is better than never, after the first time it will not take much effort to copy/paste. Ebay is a global marketplace and it will give them exposure, something they lack with their own website.

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Gijs de Zwart

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Jul 6, 2012, 1:56:45 PM7/6/12
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fwiw: the site is hosted from Toronto Canada...

Nils Vogels

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Jul 6, 2012, 2:19:50 PM7/6/12
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Try again, it's Poland:

bluebot3d.com has address 79.96.185.180
bluebot3d.com mail is handled by 10 bluebot3d.com.

# whois -r 79.96.185.180
% This is the RIPE Database query service.
% The objects are in RPSL format.
%
% The RIPE Database is subject to Terms and Conditions.

% Note: this output has been filtered.
%       To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag.

% Information related to '79.96.128.0 - 79.96.255.255'

inetnum:        79.96.128.0 - 79.96.255.255
netname:        HOMEPL
descr:          home.pl webhosting farm - static allocation
country:        PL
admin-c:        hNA8-RIPE
tech-c:         hNA8-RIPE
status:         ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by:         HOMENET-MNT
source:         RIPE # Filtered

% Information related to '79.96.0.0/16AS12824'

route:          79.96.0.0/16
descr:          home.pl network
origin:         AS12824
mnt-by:         HOMENET-MNT
source:         RIPE # Filtered

% This query was served by the RIPE Database Query Service version 1.15 (WHOIS3)
Simple guidelines to happiness:
Work like you don't need the money,
Love like your heart has never been broken and
Dance like no one can see you.

Florian Horsch

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Jul 6, 2012, 2:36:42 PM7/6/12
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Poland, this is also what the vimeo profile says. Nevertheless there's not too much to it...


I really hope that not too much people get scammed by it. I've had contact with three different guys buying the unassembled kit from him - every single one of them regretted the shopping and had major issues with part quality as well as completness of the kit.

Cheers
Flo

Laurence Laycock

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Jul 6, 2012, 2:44:33 PM7/6/12
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Suprised noone found this  http://gadgets3d.com/ 

To be distributed from poland...

Pretty Cheap..but it saddens me

Rencio out

Jelle Boomstra

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Jul 6, 2012, 3:07:21 PM7/6/12
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I would not be surprised if it wasn't hard to have their paypal and ebay accounts shut down. gadgets3d.com order process leads to a paypal payment page...

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Dave Head

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Jul 6, 2012, 3:11:08 PM7/6/12
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Ooo 1 min to go till the site is up

Dave Head

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Jul 6, 2012, 3:15:13 PM7/6/12
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Hmm I think its taking the pi55 abit

Gijs de Zwart

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Jul 6, 2012, 4:25:07 PM7/6/12
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yep.. you're right, I hadn't scrolled down enough on this site:  http://whois.domaintools.com/bluebot3d.com 


On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Nils Vogels <bacar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Taylor Alexander

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Jul 6, 2012, 4:34:59 PM7/6/12
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Wow, thats really really shitty.

They even use "Ultimaker" in the image paths.



Taylor Alexander

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Jul 6, 2012, 5:27:06 PM7/6/12
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Also the bluebot ebay page says 3 have been sold already. It would be nice to get the auction pulled before they get their money.

ddurant

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Jul 6, 2012, 5:39:33 PM7/6/12
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I'm probably gonna sound like a jerk here but aside from using Pauls nickname as a product name, which may not be kosher but is probably legal, are they breaking any laws?
 
Isn't this sorta EXACTLY the idea behind open source hardware?
 
On Friday, July 6, 2012 5:27:06 PM UTC-4, Taylor wrote:
Also the bluebot ebay page says 3 have been sold already. It would be nice to get the auction pulled before they get their money.

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Taylor Alexander wrote:
Wow, thats really really shitty.

They even use "Ultimaker" in the image paths.
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Gijs de Zwart  wrote:
yep.. you're right, I hadn't scrolled down enough on this site:  http://whois.domaintools.com/bluebot3d.com 


On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Nils Vogels wrote:
Try again, it's Poland:


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Taylor Alexander

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Jul 6, 2012, 5:41:53 PM7/6/12
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The Ultimaker is only licensed for non-commercial re-use. There's been plenty of discussion about whether or not that makes sense, but as things stand now, what these companies are doing is illegal.

And actually, the wood is licensed for non-commercial use. I don't think they've ever said what license the rest of the machine falls under. Thats one of the things I've been trying to get clarified.

Taylor Alexander

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Jul 6, 2012, 5:42:43 PM7/6/12
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And their license requires attribution.

ddurant

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Jul 6, 2012, 7:03:19 PM7/6/12
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> The Ultimaker is only licensed for non-commercial re-use
 
Ok.. That bit I did not know..
 
Not to derail this thread too much, and certainly nothing against the Ultimaker folks, but I'm not sure I get the point. If people-A make an open source design without a non-commercial clause and people- B-Z derive it but include a non-commercial clause, doesn't the whole open source thing sorta stall at the first generation? I thought the idea was to keep improving an idea. If this has already been discussed to death somewhere that I TL;DR'd, please feel free to say so..
  
On Friday, July 6, 2012 5:42:43 PM UTC-4, Taylor wrote:
And their license requires attribution.

Taylor Alexander

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Jul 6, 2012, 7:11:04 PM7/6/12
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Hah, yes, I am a proponent of this all allowing commercial re-use, as you are right, I think it defeats the purpose if other people can't derive works from it to sell and allow the community to benefit from everyone's work. I fully believe in the OSHW license described here: http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW 

But haven't you seen my giant thread about open sourcing the Ultimaker? I thought it was hard to miss. Anyway we talked about whether or not it should be non-commercial only. No one seems to agree, but it at least has come up. I agree with you that for the community to benefit, other people need to be able to iterate on these designs. I do think the Ultimaker is kind of a development stub until they properly open source it.

That said, they can have their product be a stub if that's what they want, I'd be satisfied with at least just some real documentation (as discussed in the other thread, no need to go more into it here).

I can link you to the thread if you're not familiar with it.

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ddurant

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Jul 6, 2012, 7:25:46 PM7/6/12
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> But haven't you seen my giant thread about open sourcing the Ultimaker?
 
Yep. Seen it. Haven't read it. And, to be totally honest (and truely not meaning to be offensive), don't care. Never really bought into the whole open source thing myself, though have no problems with it if people can make it work..
 
I was mostly just asking for information.. There seemed to be pieces missing which you've filled in nicely.. TY. :)
 
On Friday, July 6, 2012 7:11:04 PM UTC-4, Taylor wrote:
Hah, yes, I am a proponent of this all allowing commercial re-use, as you are right, I think it defeats the purpose if other people can't derive works from it to sell and allow the community to benefit from everyone's work. I fully believe in the OSHW license described here: http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW 

But haven't you seen my giant thread about open sourcing the Ultimaker? I thought it was hard to miss. Anyway we talked about whether or not it should be non-commercial only. No one seems to agree, but it at least has come up. I agree with you that for the community to benefit, other people need to be able to iterate on these designs. I do think the Ultimaker is kind of a development stub until they properly open source it.

That said, they can have their product be a stub if that's what they want, I'd be satisfied with at least just some real documentation (as discussed in the other thread, no need to go more into it here).

I can link you to the thread if you're not familiar with it.

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:03 PM, ddurant wrote:
> The Ultimaker is only licensed for non-commercial re-use
 
Ok.. That bit I did not know..
 
Not to derail this thread too much, and certainly nothing against the Ultimaker folks, but I'm not sure I get the point. If people-A make an open source design without a non-commercial clause and people- B-Z derive it but include a non-commercial clause, doesn't the whole open source thing sorta stall at the first generation? I thought the idea was to keep improving an idea. If this has already been discussed to death somewhere that I TL;DR'd, please feel free to say so..
  
On Friday, July 6, 2012 5:42:43 PM UTC-4, Taylor wrote:
And their license requires attribution.

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Taylor Alexander wrote:
The Ultimaker is only licensed for non-commercial re-use. There's been plenty of discussion about whether or not that makes sense, but as things stand now, what these companies are doing is illegal.

And actually, the wood is licensed for non-commercial use. I don't think they've ever said what license the rest of the machine falls under. Thats one of the things I've been trying to get clarified.


On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 2:39 PM, ddurant wrote:
I'm probably gonna sound like a jerk here but aside from using Pauls nickname as a product name, which may not be kosher but is probably legal, are they breaking any laws?
 
Isn't this sorta EXACTLY the idea behind open source hardware?

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Taylor Alexander

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Jul 6, 2012, 7:50:11 PM7/6/12
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On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:25 PM, ddurant <ddur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But haven't you seen my giant thread about open sourcing the Ultimaker?
 
Yep. Seen it. Haven't read it. And, to be totally honest (and truely not meaning to be offensive), don't care. Never really bought into the whole open source thing myself, though have no problems with it if people can make it work.

Uh, well if you don't care, what's the point in commenting? Anyway, I seem to recall you and I had this discussion back when I first joined the mailing list. Plenty of people make open source work. But um, congratulations for not caring? Not sure what the point in saying that was.
 

ddurant

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Jul 6, 2012, 7:59:58 PM7/6/12
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Like I said, I was asking for information because there seemed to be bits I didn't understand.
 
> Uh, well if you don't care, what's the point in commenting?
 
What, I can't be uninterested in reading 20,000 words of discussion but be curious about the short version anyway?
 
> Anyway, I seem to recall you and I had this discussion back when I first joined the mailing list
 
I don't think that was me..
 
On Friday, July 6, 2012 7:50:11 PM UTC-4, Taylor wrote:

Taylor Alexander

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:05:32 PM7/6/12
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> Anyway, I seem to recall you and I had this discussion back when I first joined the mailing list
 
I don't think that was me..

Ah yeah, nevermind. Looked it up and it was Bradley.

 

Bradley

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:15:12 PM7/6/12
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Dave's right.  It was me.   

I vaguely recall predicting this sort of thing would likely happen back then...and here we are today.   Not everyone believes in honesty, integrity and respect  (I'm talking about the folks who are the subject of this thread).

Taylor Alexander

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:18:20 PM7/6/12
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Yeah, and I don't think it would have mattered if it was open source or not. People will steal either way. None of the other parts have been open sourced but they seem to have figured those out. They even have the ulticontroller laser wood and I don't think that was released.

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Scott Mayson

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Jul 6, 2012, 8:22:06 PM7/6/12
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I contacted Erik on google+ and they know and said at least their not using their brand name any more!

Scott

Coofer Cat

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Jul 7, 2012, 3:57:37 AM7/7/12
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It seems a shame someone thinks they can make 'easy money' from what is actually a pretty small and niche community, and at the expense of others too. However, open source does come with this as a potential outcome.

I suspect the Ultimaker guys could get the auctions pulled for use of the Ultimaker name, but not much more than that.FWIW, I hope they do manage it, if not now then in the future.

However, we, the loyal community, can do something too. For those of us with websites, blogs, twitter, Facebook and even Thingiverse:- get online and write something about the (genuine) Ultimaker, and throw the official sites a couple of links. Don't link to the fakes, and avoid mentioning them by name. That'll help get hundreds of genuine articles and links onto the 'net so that anyone new to the field isn't fooled, and can see lots of happy people talking enthusiastically about the genuine Ultimaker.

I was wondering what to do this afternoon... now I know ;-)

http://www.ultimaker.com

Florian Horsch

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Jul 7, 2012, 5:33:27 AM7/7/12
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@Coofer Cat: That's the spirit!

Ultimaking will handle the rest.

@Taylor: It's really a shame this stuff is coming up now. I had the feeling that something could be adjusted on the copamny's strategy after your thread (still need to read the rest up... it really got lenghty at time - totally understand Dave therefore. You can't possibly care about everything, or you get lost.)). Now this whole shit isn't to bring anybody to throw out more recent plans at UM I guess.

But still, there might be a good compromise. 

Flo

Daid

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Jul 7, 2012, 5:58:52 AM7/7/12
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As far I as understood from Erik, the biggest problem they had with these Chinese copies is that it would put an extra burden on their support staff. Instead of just helping people, now they first had to verify if you are a real customer, which isn't fun for support and for real customers.

So that they are no longer using the Ultimaker brand is good. That they use Pauls nickname is a huge shame.

Jensa

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Jul 7, 2012, 6:21:28 AM7/7/12
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Shit. No wonder Ultimaking is getting the extra support burden. Just look at what they write on their sales page:

"we cannot give any special technical support we can only help you with run your first simple print. "

However - they are very much still selling the Ultimaker clone - just not on ebay any more:

J

Dave Head

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Jul 7, 2012, 9:25:47 AM7/7/12
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Sorry for going completely off topic here my laptop has stopped work and I can make a new topic on this phone

Daid can I get a link for cura4

Once again sorry for the off topic

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Daid

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Jul 7, 2012, 10:07:19 AM7/7/12
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ultimaker+cura+rc4


On Saturday, July 7, 2012 3:25:47 PM UTC+2, kibble wrote:

Sorry for going completely off topic here my laptop has stopped work and I can make a new topic on this phone

Daid can I get a link for cura4

Once again sorry for the off topic

On Jul 7, 2012 11:21 AM, "Jensa" <jen...@gmail.com> wrote:
Shit. No wonder Ultimaking is getting the extra support burden. Just look at what they write on their sales page:

"we cannot give any special technical support we can only help you with run your first simple print. "

However - they are very much still selling the Ultimaker clone - just not on ebay any more:

J

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Dave Head

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Jul 7, 2012, 10:09:21 AM7/7/12
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Brill cheers Daid

dzhu630

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Jul 9, 2012, 12:30:27 AM7/9/12
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I bought the BlueBot recently from eBay, parts are not the same quality, even the wood is cheaper.

dzhu630

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Jul 9, 2012, 12:37:07 AM7/9/12
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I think you get what you pay for, it is a cheaper quality UM.


BlueBot.jpg

Dave Head

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Jul 9, 2012, 4:47:39 AM7/9/12
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looking at there lest you get wider tape which is handy 

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 5:37 AM, dzhu630 <dzh...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think you get what you pay for, it is a cheaper quality UM.

Willem Bogaerts

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Jul 9, 2012, 5:44:38 AM7/9/12
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> Also the bluebot ebay page says 3 have been sold already.

But that did not stop them from getting a lot more positive reviews for
the quality of their shipping and support. VERY trustworthy company,
that is...

Regards,
--
Willem Bogaerts

Applicatiesmid
Kratz B.V.
http://www.kratz.nl/

Daid

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Jul 9, 2012, 6:17:17 AM7/9/12
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If it's the correct type of tape. I have tape from the Gamma, which is about 50% wider, so it takes less strips. PLA sticks on it just as well, however, it's not as sticky, so it has a tendency to let lose from the printer bed.


On Monday, July 9, 2012 10:47:39 AM UTC+2, kibble wrote:
looking at there lest you get wider tape which is handy 

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 5:37 AM, dzhu630 <dzh...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think you get what you pay for, it is a cheaper quality UM.


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Dave Head

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Jul 9, 2012, 6:19:39 AM7/9/12
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yer u got some from B&Q own brand dose the job tho need to give a quick wipe down with acetone dose the job



Jensa

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Jul 9, 2012, 8:49:12 AM7/9/12