How far can you run a Vizsla?

[BenAS]

So this is a bit of an odd (and may be stupid) question but we weren't
sure who else to ask and we were hoping you could help!

Hi, we're getting a Vizsla in a few weeks ( can wait!) but we were
wondering once they're full grown (18mnths+ at least) how far can you
run them? My wife and I are both ultramarathon runners, and we were
wondering if they could run with us on our long runs (all cross
country)? Obviously, he would need lots of food and water through out
the day, but any thoughts on whether they could cope with 40-60miles,
or multi day runs. We are thinking of doing a multi day route in which
would be about 25-35miles a day for 6 days?? We obviously do not want
to push the dog too hard, or cause problems or pain in any way, but
just wondering does anyone have any experience of this sort of thing,
we would look to build up his distance if he was happy to run with us
- but is it realistic to think he could do it, as it would be great to
run with him?

I guess one thing that concerns us would be wear on his pads, but as
the terrain we run on is mainly soft trail or grass, this should be
fine, but we can keep an eye on this as we build up the miles.

thank in advance! ( and don't worry we do realise this is an odd hobby
and people think we're a little odd, but each to their own I guess!)

Ben

[jas]

I'm no expert but that does sound a bit excessive to me, especially
for 6 days!! I'm sure if you run 25 miles your dog will do at least
50 so that's a lot of mileage.

[Pam Joyce]

Hi Ben

I'm no expert on this, but if you think of a wolf or wild dog pack they run
when they are hunting for food and spend the rest of the time lazing around.
Whilst a pack may have to run for many miles on one day to get their food,
it would take a particularly lean period to cause them to run approx 30
miles for 6 days.

Pam

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[Chrissie Diron]

Hi Ben

I think the answer is that it probably is possible for a Vizsla to run this far on consecutive days, but only as an adult dog and then with much training and preparation. 

These dogs can run great distances, but they don't usually run all the time. A natural rhythm would be a variety of speeds and plenty of stops along the way. Would a Vizsla accompanying you be able to do that, or would he have to stay by your side, matching your pace the whole way? And just as most humans would injure pretty quickly if they weren't properly trained for this sort of exercise, your dog will also have to build up gradually and develop stamina and strength so as not to injure. 

A pup will have seemingly boundless energy, but there is a huge amount of damage that can be done if you don't wait until he is fully developed before you engage in such strenuous exercise. I read today "healthy old age starts with healthy young age" and that is so true! My oldest Vizsla, Pash, did not have a good start. I did many things wrong with him through ignorance and impatience, one of them was far too much exercise too young and on unsuitable terrain (miles and miles of road work and excessive jumping over high, hard objects) - he was pretty wild, he seemed indestructible and we have been dealing with the damage it caused for many years. Please don't make that mistake. 

Another thing to bear in mind is your dog's conformation. That won't be apparent until he has grown quite a bit. Many dogs have conformation defects and if he has, that can lead to undue strain and a higher likelihood of injury and problems later in life. I hope you are getting your pup from a really good breeder, who has done health checks and who has very sound stock. There are no guarantees in life, but getting the right dog to start with helps and then rearing him right from the start is essential too. A very safe and very good strengthening tool whilst he's growing is swimming. Use that as much as you can. Keep him lean, grow him slowly and be very conservative about the early stresses his body is subjected to. If you start with a good plan and he enters adulthood with good conformation and well muscled, nicely trained too, you can probably train him bit by bit to cope with the long distances. 

I know there is an endurance test in Australia that some Vizslas compete in. Perhaps Ros can tell us more about that. And Vizslas in America are often hunted across vast prairies with the handlers on horseback, so they have to be able to cover huge areas and not tire or injure. Admittedly these dogs tend to be bred smaller and lighter in build, much like long distance runners are also wirey and lighter in build. Perhaps a consideration for your choice of pup? 

Finally, there are some very good boots available for dogs to protect their feet. The ones I often recommend are Neopaws www.neopaws.com This is a Canadian company, but they ship internationally and their boots are used for everything you can think of. They would certainly work for running on hard, rocky or hot surfaces. They stay on in water too (my boy has swum with them on), so if the paws are likely to suffer from the constant pounding, then there is something to address that. 

You should also learn how to massage your dog, as warming up and down is as important for a canine athlete as any human and often overlooked. Go here www.caninetherapy.co.uk and get the great DVD which shows you how this is done. Get to one of their courses if you can - they even offer puppy massage! 

From Chrissie and the Vitali Vizslas

DON'T SWEAT THE PETTY THINGS AND DON'T PET THE SWEATY THINGS!

www.vitalk9.ca
www.canine-health-concern.org.uk
www.aunaturelk9s.org

[helenr]

Hi Ben

I am training to go to the Arctic in March 2010 raising money for The
Prince's Trust charity.

I have been obviously doing a lot of running and endurance walks (25 -
50 miles)

My vizzie boys are aged 4 and 3 and I have been including them in my
training - I wouldn't be doing it if I couldn't!

The older boy has loved the increase in exercise which has been
steadily increased over the last 6 months but even with the steady
increase, it can be too much for my younger boy who gets too over
excited early on!

I would agree with Chrissie - doggy boots have been very important,
(their paws get sore really easily especially in cold weather), along
with adequate rest periods and "fun" times. Even on a run - I will try
to vary what I am doing to keep it exciting and interesting (taking a
tennis ball to stop and do some retrieving which my boy loves - is an
easy example)

I would certainly think you should be waiting until your vizzie is at
least 2 years old before building into heavy exercise (as my younger
one is three and it is still too much) and I would guess it also
depends on your specific vizzie - my older boy loves it and it has
really helped him with his working - as he really can work ALL day
now!

I am a big advocat of patience when a youngster is developing - give
them the time they need to develop fully, damage done young has such a
big impact later on!

I would also recommend a very gentle build up but whether they will
manage the amounts you are talking about - I actually couldnt say.
Sorry but I would guess it was excessive.

The vizzie's capacity for exercise is vast but beware of the vizsla
nature of "going to they drop" - as some vizzie personalilties will
just not stop until you do, but they will do untold damage without
showing it!

I now have a full training programme and I work my vizzie boys into
some of it - knowing what they can manage and what they will find the
most fun. Also if I need a pick up, I bring my younger boy as he is
soooo funny and always cheers me up! (Invaluable on a cold wet
morning!)

I hope this helps you

Helen

[Suzie]

My goodness! I am terribly impressed with you all! I could just about
run to the end of the road!!

My small tuppenceworth - we have used Neopaws doggy boots (as
mentioned by Chrissie) with enormous success. Our little vizzie bitch
has a poorly paw (missing two of her toes which were ripped off in an
accident before we got her) and used to do a lot of overcompensating
which, in the longer term, caused her problems with her hips and back
(because she wasn't running 'straight'). The neopaw doggy boot has
worked wonders for her because it protected her little foot enough so
that gradually she has built up her confidence to use it properly
again. She can do literally ANYTHING with her boot on including fast
turns, twirls, very physical playing and charging about viszla style
in the garden, woods, roadwork etc etc. They have never come off (even
in puddles) or slipped and they are BRILLIANT. Also the people at
Neopaws are incredibly helpful, genuinely interested in your dog and
get the boots to you in the UK only a few days after you've ordered
them.

I agree with Helen that it will depend very much on the dog whether or
not yours is interested in going running with you. Our dog (in his
prime) would have enjoyed at least a bit of this (though your
distances might have been too much for him) and would happily go
running with my military brother in law (usually no more than 10 miles
though) whereas our girl would NEVER have been able to do longer term
running. Just not her style and though she would probably have given
it a go (they've very eager to please) she would have been miserable
and, now we have had experience of her problems, I realise we would
probably have damaged her joints too.

I guess if you do decide to give this a go, you should make yourself
very aware of the signs of heat-stroke in dogs and how to treat it (as
I'm sure you know, they don't sweat like humans and it's therefore
harder for them to regulate their body heat) particularly if you take
the dog running on warmer days. I've heard various horror stories of
dogs who go regularly running with their humans who have succumbed to
this (usually in the summer) and it's not at all nice for anyone
concerned - but if you know what to look for and what to do, that
would be a step in the right direction (sorry - no pun intended! - but
it is quite serious).

The only other thing I would say is that, as far as I know, dogs would
naturally choose to relax after eating rather than carry on running
for another chunk of time, so it might be worth checking with a vet
that you're not going to upset digestion or health by running your dog
on if you've just fed him. Obviously I don't 'know' about this, but it
won't hurt to check.

How exciting to be getting your new puppy!! Do let us know how you get
on.

Kind regards

Suzie

[BenAS]

Thank you everyone for your responses. It sounds like – a “maybe”
depending on so many factors. But that’s fine we’ve got a couple of
years before we would even consider it, so I guess by then we’ll know
whether he’s a runner or not.

I guess the multi day events may not fit in with a dog’s natural
pattern of life, but I hope to have some good single day runs with him
at least once he’s stopped growing – but we’ll wait and see. We
organise a running club every week with a bunch of friends who want to
improve their running style and distance, so we can enrol him in that
and build his miles up slowly along with the rest of the group!..
Although I’m not sure we can help with his style, and I have a feeling
he may beat me on the sprints!

Thanks for the advice on heat stroke, I’ll certainly read up on that,
as I guess it could happen even without the long runs. As for the dog
massage that sounds great, my wife is a physio, so perhaps she can add
it to her arsenal of medical knowledge!

Then again, having said all that I do have moments on a run when I
wonder “why I’m doing this” perhaps he can teach me a thing or two
about stopping to play and not worry about the finish line!

Only four weeks to go!

(here are some pictures of him and his litter mates, I'm sure you've
all seen pic like this before - but I'm just very excited! -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/diggers )

thanks again - you have all been really helpful and patient in helping
me with all my questions, I'm sure there will be more!

Ben.

[Zaika]

Just a small addition to this thread because I found it rather
interesting. I used to take my two for mountain bike rides when I
lived in the tropics. These would typically 2-3 hours at a time and
probably around 20km in length.

My experience, for what it's worth, was that the dogs loved this type
of exercise but I think it's very important to break it up. We would
stop whenever there was water (and I would plan routes around this) so
that they could swim, drink and rest for a bit. I'd take some biscuits
with me to give them a bit of an energy boost and I'd pretty much let
the dogs set the pace. We'd stop after long climbs etc and more often
than not I'd get an impatient bark after a couple of minutes to tell
me to get on with it. But I think the variety of tempo that came with
the outing suited the dogs. I would be a little worried if it was a
steady marathon/ ultra marathon type of steady state over a long
period but I've no experience to base that view on.

I guess that, as per the advice already given, the trick is to ease
them in gently and see how they go. I found that you could tell when
the dogs were getting fatigued and keep an eye out for stiffness etc
after they've slept which suggests they may have overdone it. Good
luck with them - I think if you pay close attention to the dogs and
let them be your guide you won't go too far wrong.

[Strassenbahnhaltestelle]

hi Ben,

In my opinion if a person with two legs can do it a dog with four may
well do, too. As Chrissie says, and i see often when i am in the
states, is many people take their dogs hunting along with the horses.
furthermore, there was a woman in australia a few years ago that run
her dog, i think some sort of labrador mix] alongside her camel all
through the desert [near the 3 month finishing line it died eating
dingo bait, so sad], running every day many miles. once the dog is old
enough to start training and he has the shape to run i'd say he
probably will love it. Vigo surely would, and we are now slowly
starting to train her to do longer distances, which include cycling.
the pads also get harder with practice, and good boots over rocks are
good. if you run in nature, i.e. grassland, hills, then there should
be no problem. If you run on the road, which is hard, and the dog has
to run next to you at your pace that's harder for the bones [baring in
mind that marathon runners temporarily shrink in size as the spine
compresses...dogs get an equal beating]. i tend to only let her run on
pavement for 15-20 minutes, the rest on grassy surface. she is 21
months old, and has been on 8 hour mountain hikes [no running], and
still chases a ball upon returning.

i think if a dog enjoys it and is fit and well looked after during
long spells of running, then there should be no problem, especially as
you will build him up to run fully for one day first, then maybe two
days, then three....and get a sense what stretches him, you will know
how to read your dog by the time he is old enough. food wise don't
feed during excersise as it may cause bloat, which can be fatal.

I don't think all dogs are suited - someone mentioned the confirmation
- all of Vigo's parents and most siblings are hiscored [Vigo is next
in line] and they have great confirmation. she is very lean and bendy.
i think Hamish would be too heavy and he is not a 'bouncy' runner as
Vigo is, or Radio was.

gosh, you must be so fit!!!!

Andrea

[Londonfieldsboys]

Ok, at the risk of being the odd one out. I'm worried the balance of
this thread is in mostly in favour and I've got to come clean and say
I'm absolutely and totally HORRIFIED at the idea of asking a dog to
run 25-35 miles for six days in a row. I honestly think this would be
animal cruelty in the extreme.

I don't have the time to research internet sources to back up my
argument but my attitude to canine exercise was drastically challenged
by a 5 day course I did with dog behaviourist Sheila Harper, she took
task with the idea that 'a tired dog is a good dog' and reported that
she had had to deal with many, many instances of stress in dogs who
were being over exercised by their owners who were regularly taking
their dogs for long jogs or cycle rides. In her opinion dogs wouldn't
cover much distance in a days hunting and then after eating well would
rest in a den for days on end until hunger would motivate them to move
on. I too have found that even on a long days walk for say 8 or 9 hrs
my poor pooch starts really dragging his heels and is literally
sleeping on his feet.

Just my tuppenceworth and a different perspective to consider.

Ross

[Susie Zarpanely]

I am afraid I would tend to agree with Ross, in that I have just come back from a week in Scotland with one of my dogs. We shot Monday Wednesday and Friday and the idea was to do a mornings corrective/ reinforcement training on the Tuesday and Thursday ( to put right any problems that had shown up the day before). My dogs have already done a months shooting, trialing, picking up,dogging in and  beating and I keep them pretty fit. 6 dogs ran in rotation and we had a half hour break for lunch. It was not just the hunting but the concentration watching the others that made them shattered the next day. My little dog loves her training sessions but she was obviously tired on the 'off' days and needed to rest . Another 2 pence worth
 
Susie
 
> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:28:30 -0800
> Subject: Re: How far can you run a Vizsla?
> From: ROS...@sky.com
> To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com

[Pam Joyce]

Ben

I thought that I was in a minority of one when I made my original response
on Sunday. I kept it low key but hoped that it would lead you to look into
it in more detail. The concensus on the group up until now has been positive
but I am pleased to see that Ross & Susie have their reservations too.

I am not convinced that ultra marathon running is good for human joints.
However it is your choice and I respect that, but your dog will not have
that choice. As a human you have access to shoes designed specifically for
the purpose to minimise joint injuries, but your dog will not. If you feel
an ache that you know could become an injury you can rest and/or put a
support on the affected area, your dog will not be able to tell you that he
has an ache so the first you will know of it is when he is lame. It is a
survival instinct for a dog to try to hide the fact that it is injured so
your dog could be in pain long before you see it.

You must also take into consideration how you will feel if after months of
training and planning and the expense of getting to your running trip, your
dog goes lame on the second or third day and you have to abort your trip.
Also once you have trained your dog to expect exercise for several hours a
day that is what he will come to expect and need. Imagine how unbearable
your dog will be to live with if you cannot give him that exercise because
you are ill or the vet has said the dog must rest.

If taking your dog on ultra marathon runs is a must you might find a breed
that was originally bred to cover long distances over several days more
appropriate. Dalmations were originally bred for running alongside horse
drawn carriages. Huskys and Malamutes are still used for dragging sledges
although their heavy coats could be an issue. Their breed clubs could advise
you of their suitability.

Sorry to be a pessimist but I hope you take this in the spirit it is
intended which is to help and I wish you the best of luck whatever decision
you make.

Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2505 - Release Date: 11/15/09
19:50:00

[BenAS]

Many thanks for the responses there is a lot to think about, and to
reassure you all, I have no intention of forcing the dog to do
anything he does not want to do, and will build up exercise slowly
until we find a balance both he an I are happy with, be that 4-5 miles
or more.

But I do have to pick up one point, that ultra marathon running is bad
for you joints, there has been little research in the the effects of
distance running (over marathon distance), but the evidence that has
be gained suggests that the effect is positive, the strengthening of
joints, tendons and muscle that occurs over time has a huge impact
that enables runner to remain more substantially more active as they
age than non runners . The benefit of aerobic exercise and far
outweighs the possible issues that can occur. Most injuries are as a
result of people trying to do to much to soon, i.e couch potato to
marathon in a short period.

I love running and always love getting out but it has taken me a
number of years to build up my endurance to feel comfortable to run
the distances I do, and I would take the same approach with a dog. I
believe everyone has distance at which they are comfortable, for some
this is 100m for other it is several hundreds of miles. I always say
the goal is not to gain the most distance but to gain the most
enjoyment from your running, if this is true for humans it should be
true for dogs. But I have to question weather it is really worth
getting all dressed up in the kit and trainers if you're only going to
run for 100m.... I really don't get sprinting!!

Also, much as I would love to run multi day events on a regular basis,
I do about one a year, they are hard work and you need plenty of rest
pre and post event, most weeks the longest run I would do would be for
about 5hours max with 2 or 3 other runs of 1 - 1.5 hours, so I would
guess a full grown Viz would be able to cope with shorter runs, but we
would have to see about the longer runs.

The multi day events are usually supported, with supporter and water
stops every 7-10 miles, so I am thinking that one option cold be for
Digby to join me at the last check point and to run the last
7-10miless with me, to give me the boost and distraction i often need
at that point of a race

My intention with the post was to see if what the advice was, and many
thanks to you all for responding. If you had all come back with - yes
run the dog will out run you for weeks - then great no issue, but I
was not convinced this would be the response, hence the reason for
asking, it seems that my initial suspicions were correct that the
answer is maybe, but probably not multi day events, or certainly not
without proper preparation and careful planning/opt outs etc... At the
end of the day I want a happy dog not a miserable dog.

thanks again for all your input.

Ben




On Nov 19, 10:43 am, "Pam Joyce" <csi...@pamjoyce.freeserve.co.uk>
wrote:

[Anna Nussey]

Hi Ben,

Sounds like you are very sensible. You have obviously built your own endurance up slowly and know the importance of this. It is good to hear you are not someone who thinks dogs come fit! And that each individual has their own ability. The only thing I would say is that you need to remember that some dogs don't know how to limit themselves and are also a lot more stoical than humans so your dog may not give good indications that they are tired or in pain. A good indicator can be their behaviour - if you start to see any sort of change (e.g. more grumpy in certain situations) then I think you need to take that as an indicator of doing too much rather than only looking at the physical signs (you probably have thought of this already but always good to put it out their for others to read) 

I look forward to hearing about the antics of your new dog.

Best of luck
Anna

[rosle...@bigpond.com]

Hi Ben,
One of the things that I haven't seen addressed in any of the posts is the general structure/health potential of the puppy you are or have purchased?
(Sorry, I'm on webmail at the moment so am missing some of the posts)

I would be very very concerned about researching the health history of your puppy's parents, siblings, grandparents, etc WRT hip scoring in particular. I would be seeking a puppy from lines of below average hip scrores for such extensive exercise...

Not sure if you have worked through this or not?


I also found Pam's response excellent, in particular with consideration of the fact that the working pace/gait of this breed is not IMO a sustained trot... it's an easy ground covering quartering 'canter' - not what I've seen a dog doing when accompanying a runner... it's not the jogging as an adult taht bothers me, it's the sustained pace...

Just a couple of more thoughts...
Regards
Ros
--..............

> without proper preparation and careful planning/opt outs etc... At the
> end of the day I want a happy dog not a miserable dog.
>
> thanks again for all your input.
>
> Ben
>
>
>
>
>

[Chrissie Diron]

I did briefly touch on the conformation and health history aspect in my earlier post Ros. As I compete in dog sports with my dogs and ran a hydrotherapy pool for dogs for 5 years I have become particularly interested in this. Recently read that "healthy old age starts with healthy young age" and that is so true! There's no doubt that genetic predisposition is an important factor in a dog's health and a dog that comes from structurally unsound parents is far more likely to have compounded structural problems himself. Having said that epigenetics and nutrogenomics have both proven that we can affect the DNA changes and expression of things and can often improve on weaknesses (we are not necessarily victims of our genes, we are far more masters of our destiny). Now, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to only breed from the best and favour soundness, but it does mean that the way we rear our animals plays a very important role. I know of people who have done heaps of homework before getting their next "agility dog", only to discover that at the age of 2 years their animals are dysplastic - all best laid plans down the drain. What happened? Was it nature, was it nurture? And yet others get seemingly poorly put-together mutts from rescue and those dogs never have a lame day. Personally, I think you *should* absolutely put in the homework and pick the right dog for the task you have in mind, but the job doesn't stop there - you then have to spend heaps of time and effort making sure that your dog really is as sound, as well prepared, as healthy and vibrant as it should be. I think it's interesting to note that the American hunting Vizslas are mostly pretty small and whippety. This is not the Vizsla that the Europeans know and love. I have a problem with it, but the reason it has developed is because of the American hunting style, i.e. across vast land and accompanying a horse! This is no longer the foot hunters pointer. I guess they should really use lurchers ;-) And therein lies my beef - they have adapted the breed to suit their needs (why didn't they just use a dog that is better suited in the first place?) - so now many European and American Vizslas look VERY different and could not perform each other's jobs. I think it's wrong, as I like to think that we are trying to preserve history and there are so many different breeds for different purposes, so there's no need to tinker in this way, but that's my opinion. How does this all affect Ben's running partner? Well, I think there are some Vizslas that can match him very well - those would be the ones bred like the American field dogs, which great stamina, vast range, lightweight structure. If the dog he has chosen is not of this build and mentality, then he won't have success in training it to accompany him, nor will the dog's health and soundness benefit from the exercise. I think he has a very good understanding of how to approach the whole thing now, but his new pup will have the final say. I have seen so many unfit dogs over the years, Vizslas included, that I tend to like the idea of people doing things with their dogs, active pursuits and getting their family members involved, but it has to have a plan and be done so very carefully, totally with the dog in mind (as opposed to the dog being moulded into what the human thinks it should be) and there must be much flexibility along the way. I have to say that I too have seen some awful things done in the name of "exercise". One popular one in the US is treadmilling the dog! I know of people whose dogs will run for hours, indoors, on a darned treadmill! A useful tool maybe every once in a while for rehab or in addition to other training, but as the main exercise? Unsupervised? For hours at the same speed? That is cruel and yet their dogs accept it and the humans think they are doing the animal good. Others job for miles with an overweight heavily coated breed dragging along behind - oh, I've even seen people driving along IN THEIR CARS with the dog running alongside!! I know these are extreme examples, but it shows how easily we can be blinded by the illusion we are doing something good for the dog and nothing could be further from the truth. Not a day goes by when we don't pay for the damage we did (unintentionally) to our dear old Pash. The fact that he's still doing so well is purely down to exceptional rehab and care for many years, since the problems began to show. He definitely came with a predisposition to structural problems (I've just dug out pictures of him at 8 weeks - 2 years of age), but the early diet, the excessive and inappropriate exercise and a few other mishaps along the way sealed his fate as a pretty crippled adult. 

[Susie Zarpanely]

Ben just a quick one, having just read this post more carefully, I am sure you must be right from a male perspective. From a female perspective running or jogging long distances is a major cause of female prolapse in later years. So major distances are to be very wary of or at least make sure that the core and pelvic floor are well protected.
 
Susie
 
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:02:27 -0800

> Subject: Re: How far can you run a Vizsla?

> From: akin...@googlemail.com
> To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com

[Strassenbahnhaltestelle]

hi Chrissie,

when i was in new york last there were gyms for people and dogs....!!!
treadmills!

i agree with Ross and all in that dogs actually need less excersise
but more mental stimulous. this is what tires them the most. but
still, you know, sometimes i think that we can't always go for the
standard, as there are many variations. if i wasn't careful, radio
would swim for HOURS, far too long, but there was no way in getting
him out of water once he was in [everyone who knew him knows what i am
talking about], i mean, he would swim MILES. noone thought a dog could
swim that much in one go [not to mention dodging boats on the thames,
yep, to my horror he swum across it and back]. he did it because he
loved it, and he had so much joy, and it was evident to all who saw
him. that was his nack - he was so well trained and could do anything,
so long as it did not involve the temptation of water....i am not even
sure if it was my fault or not, as neither hamish or vigo have that
obsession, and radio taught hamish to swim. i tried channeling this
obsession by starting S&R and wanted to do water rescue, but V's are
no leonbergers and can't pull boats...or survive extreme cold...

he could have done a cross channel swim alongside me, no problem. and
probably everyone on here would have said i am mad for allowing it.

Andrea

[Ros Leighton]

I think that there are some dogs who do have an absolute passion for
swimming.
My Scully was the same - she'd swim for as long as she could - we never
really found out how long. We called her 'Scully Moroney' after the
Australian long distance swimmer, Susie Moroney. :-)

I understand the concern of the dangers of swimming - my husband used to be
very panicked when the seas were not too calm - he kept telling her she
hadn't packed her passport. <bg>

In beautiful places like Jervis Bay, Scully would swim parallel to the beach
while we walked for miles. I got great pleasure from watching her complete
delight in swimming.. and that was obvious from the moment she realised
where she was headed.. :-)

But I'm not sure that you train that in Andrea, I think it's just the dog...
freaks, like Susie Moroney, who just love to do that particular thing..

Some images of Jervis Bay... one of the most beautiful places on earth I
think...
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jervisbaytourism.asn.au/pa
ges/images/e_moona-ck-aerial-lo-res.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.jervisbaytouris
m.asn.au/&usg=__xJGjsyoY4LDKAnSckaH_J0BhQgY=&h=287&w=430&sz=24&hl=en&start=1
1&um=1&tbnid=th1o-OTJuSmCBM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djervis%2Bba
y%2Bimages%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-au:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GGL
R_en%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

(sorry, tiny URL won't change it)

Cheers
Ros

-----Original Message-----
From: ukvi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ukvi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Strassenbahnhaltestelle
Subject: Re: How far can you run a Vizsla?

i agree with Ross and all in that dogs actually need less excersise
but more mental stimulous. this is what tires them the most. but

..........i am not even

sure if it was my fault or not, as neither hamish or vigo have that

obsession, .....

[Craig P]

Hi Ben,

We waited until our Vizzy was 11 months old before we started running
him 4 weeks ago. We keep the pace very steady (about an 8 minute
mile) so he can canter along and started with 4 miles, now doing 5,
but can't really see him being happy with more than 10 in the future,
just because of the style of zig-zag, nose down ground coverage this
breed prefers rather than being tethered to a human doing road
running.

However, since we started running his behaviour has improved and he's
often flaked out at the end of the night whereas two walks of up to an
hour each don't have the same intensity (or effect)!

Good luck,

Craig

[Susie Zarpanely]

Craig This is going to be very blunt and probably taken as rude! Look forward to a crippled dog in 10 years time.
 
Susie
 
> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 06:35:22 -0800

> Subject: Re: How far can you run a Vizsla?

> From: cjpol...@mac.com
> To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com

[Helga Root]

Hi Craig

Well that certainly was blunt Susie! And whilst I agree that running an 11 month old like that is VERY wrong and likely to cause terrible damage for the future, I think we should warn Craig in a more ‘gentle and polite’ way that his dog is still growing and simply too young to take that sort of exercise, and that distance, for at least another year.  See all the previous posts for minute detail and very well informed advice Craig.  Sorry Susie but think we shouldn’t scare people off this forum by being too harsh and maybe then we can help new owners and stop this sort of mistake.  I am getting ready for you all to shout at me now, but I can take it!! Ouch, be nice!

Helgs

 

 

---

> </html

[Suzie]

Craig - I'm going to be less blunt but nonetheless 100% agree with Susie. If you keep running your dog so young you will literally guarantee that he will be crippled with joint problems later on in life. This kind of thing is, I'm sorry to say, HUGELY irresponsible in an owner of a breed like this one. Ben, who hasn't even got a viszla yet, has had the sense (sorry if rude - not intended) to look into this training by asking experienced viszla owners and you would do well to follow his lead on this.

I'm going to assume that you are well intentioned but inexperienced in viszla owning yourself (again - not trying to be patronising or rude and I'm probably sounding that way, so sorry for that) but if you look through this site you will see that many many people have posted with regards to this kind of thing. Our member Chrissie is particularly knowledgeable about this kind of thing, having done all the wrong things with one of her vizzies when he was young, before she learnt otherwise. She is (in my opinion) now one of our most experienced & helpful posters - Her posts are very well explained and very worth you checking out in case you think we are all barmy and over-sensitive. Practically every breeder we have on this site both in the UK and outside of it are agreed about how you exercise young viszlas - and since we all agree on very little else, it really is worth your while taking this advice seriously. I'm not a breeder but have owned vizsla's for nearly 40 years and I 100% agree with them.

Please please STOP running your very young viszla immediately - this is far too much exercise for him and you will seriously damage his growing joints if you carry on with this (lots of pain getting up, walking and existing for your dog and lots of expensive vets bills for treatment and medication as well as heaps and heaps of guilt for you in the future). As for his behaviour - this is one area where we do not all agree, but my experience is that viszla's are often 'badly' (inquisitive, over enthusiastic, hugely energetic) behaved for the first three years of their lives till they reach maturity, after which they calm down. Whilst I understand the logic behind you thinking that this energy just needs to be burned off by excessive exercise, it's not the right way. Owning a young vizsla just 'aint that easy I'm afraid. 

I really hope you take this advice in the spirit in which it is intended - I appreciate that both Susie and I (Suzie) sound rather abrasive here, but it is only because it is quite shocking to hear about anyone doing SUCH a wrong thing to such a young, vulnerable dog.

Best

Suzie

[Susie Zarpanely]

Hi Helgs I know I was blunt but as you pointed out all the advice has been on the forum for months (and more) and it looks as if he either hasn't taken it in or it has gone right over his head and there he is giving dangerous advice to some one who is asking for sensible help. Lost my rag I know, it is something we hear over and over again "I have to tire him out ,he needs to run or he is a nightmare in the house,"Then of course there is "why can't I get my dog back?" or how can I get my dog back? It really is quite simple the adrenaline is flowing, the hunting instinct is rushing through his head and the more excersise you give, the more he will take, therefore the more he will need. Slow it all down and stimulate the brain, it matters not what with, gundog, obedience, agility or tricks, Clicker, whistle, treats, or games The dog will be shattered and more importantly sound.Yes maybe I should have been gentler and more polite but sometimes a short sharp shock works to get a message through Sorry Helgs, now I am going to turn off the computer till you have all come flying back at me  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Susie

---

[Helga Root]

Hi Susie

I totally agree with all you and Suzie have said but I just think that the ‘pill’ is sometimes better delivered with a little sugar, then it goes down and doesn’t get spat out!!  I have no idea who Craig is or how long he has followed the group discussion but imagine what he would think if today was his first visit.  We now have a chance to stop his youngster from further damage but only if he listens to us and perhaps he will now.  I am sure that he loves his dog and had no idea how damaging this exercise is, but hopefully, all the wonderful and caring advice that has been delivered on this subject over the last two weeks (and many more times before that as well) will help Craig realize and then he will be able to share this and help educate other Vizsla owning friends too.  

 

This group has a wealth of knowledge and I have learned so much in the last four years and then, in turn, been able to help others because of that.  And long may it continue, lets keep on caring and sharing!!

Helgs  

 

 

 

 

---

From: ukvi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ukvi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Susie Zarpanely
Sent: 23 November 2009 18:40
To: vizsla discussion group
Subject: RE: How far can you run a Vizsla?

 

Hi Helgs I know I was blunt but as you pointed out all the advice has been on the forum for months (and more) and it looks as if he either hasn't taken it in or it has gone right over his head and there he is giving dangerous advice to some one who is asking for sensible help. Lost my rag I know, it is something we hear over and over again "I have to tire him out ,he needs to run or he is a nightmare in the house,"Then of course there is "why can't I get my dog back?" or how can I get my dog back? It really is quite simple the adrenaline is flowing, the hunting instinct is rushing through his head and the more excersise you give, the more he will take, therefore the more he will need. Slow it all down and stimulate the brain, it matters not what with, gundog, obedience, agility or tricks, Clicker, whistle, treats, or games The dog will be shattered and more importantly sound.Yes maybe I should have been gentler and more polite but sometimes a short sharp shock works to get a message through Sorry Helgs, now I am going to turn off the computer till you have all come flying back at me  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Susie

---

From: he...@root7.freeserve.co.uk
To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: How far can you run a Vizsla?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:15:43 +0000

---

[Recuer...@aol.com]

Hi Craig,

 

when my pups left home I gave their new families the standard advice, give 5 MINS exercise for every MONTH of the pup's life until it is at least 18 months of age. I wouldn't count cantering & galloping as safe for those 5 mins per month. Once your baby is fully developed (remember that happens at 26.5 months of  age.) Whilst I agree with Susie's concern I also agree with Helg's comments.

 

Best wishes,

Vicky

 

Vicky Martin
Recuerdo Magyar Vizslak
A Dog is for LIFE - NOT for Puppy Farming!
www.home-boarding4dogs.co.uk

[Ros Leighton]

Hi Craig, I know you've already had some responses about this, but I do want
to add that I think it's a generally accepted principle that running with
puppies under a minimum age of 14 months is detrimental to their potential
skeletal health. The article indicates that what you consider to be the
'safe' controlled exercise could be quite the opposite. It's not at all what
a Vizsla * can* do, but what he should be doing.

I've found a good article that you might like to read
http://www.marithymegoldens.com/dogs_and_exercise.pdf

It includes a couple of valuable points. -
"World renown expert on canine fitness, Chris Zink, VMD, PhD states in
her book
Peak Performance: Coaching the Canine Athlete: “Puppies have an
increased risk of injury due to their relative lack of coordination,
because their bones are immature and softer than those of adult dogs,
and because their muscles are not yet fully developed...... Even after
a year of age, young dogs should not be worked strenuously until their
muscles have been developed by a program of increasing exercise of a
period of several months.” She also recommends that there be no
forced exercise before six months. In other words, pups can run and
play but not be taken on long walks and hikes. Dogs between six and
fourteen months can safely do strength training exercise but not
endurance."

And -
"Encouraging serious endurance
exercise is not in the anatomical best interests of a dog under 14
months of age."

I think that the other very helpful thing to keep in mind is that though a
tired puppy is much more 'convenient' it is not necessarily a good thing for
the dog...
Hope the article is helpful
Cheers
Ros

-----Original Message-----
From: ukvi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ukvi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf

[Chrissie Diron]

Ros, you beat me to it! I have Chris Zink's books and as a vet and avid promoter of canine athleticism she certainly has much good stuff to say. Here's another link that people might find useful. It goes to one of her short articles on Canine Fitness  www.caninesports.com/fitness.html

I think it's very important to remember that puppyhood is not a race to the finish - it takes time to grow and the seeds we sow in that time will bring our future harvest. Vizslas really are not physically mature before 24 months, some (especially the boys) continue to fill out until they are 3 years old (this has been my personal experience). In this time we are laying foundations for future health and it's arguably the most important phase of a dog's life. 

It's been mentioned here again and is a much visited topic with our eager, energetic breed, but mental stimulation is paramount to a pup's development and goes far further in tiring a pup than ever increasing exercise. It's really true! The brain is growing, as well as the body, but most people focus on wearing out the physical body, when the reason for the dog's limitless energy reserves is an overactive brain that is just desperate to be stretched and yet so calm and content when satisfied. Stimulate the mind, go easy on the body. Your dog is looking to you to get this mix right, so take heed. Practise safe exercise! 

[Chrissie Diron]

In case anyone on this list is in need of a canine physiotherapist you may be interested to know about this guy: www.caninephysio.co.uk  He's based in Middlesex, but will visit and work with dogs in London and all surrounding counties. Lots of useful information on this topic on his site, so even if you have no need now, this is good info to have on hand!

[Craig P]

Whoa!

Ok, well, point noted loud and clear folks. I'm broad shouldered
enough to take the pill as it comes, though not ignorant or thick
skinned. So long as you don't mind that directness cuts both ways
presumably?

So, working on the rule of thumb of 5 minutes per month of age WHICH I
HAVE ALWAYS ADHERED TO RIGOROUSLY = 55 minutes exercise @ 11 months.
In 55 minutes in the park I guarantee he would run much further than 4
miles (although I have not put my GPS watch on him to confirm). My
vet advised that, approaching one year, it would be fine for light
running and he also noted that an energetic 11 month old Viz would run
at least 4 miles in a regular 30 minute walk in the park with all the
zig-zagging, back-and-forthing.

But, I guess you know better than a vet or is the logic flawed? Is 5
mins/month of life too much? Do you take notice of how far your
Vizsla can run around a field in 5 minutes or do you lack
comprehension of distance?

I do not mind honest, well meaning feedback - critical or otherwise -
so long as it is well considered. What I will not tolerate, ever, is
the suggestion that I do not have my dogs welfare first and foremost
in mind. With a healthy 7 year old and almost 1 year old (on Friday)
Vizsla they are at the centre of my world and and their health,
wellbeing and care is of paramount importance.

Also, I will seek today an alternative opinion from a qualified
veterinary surgeon to contrast against my regular vets advice but
equally I respect the specific, collective experience of breed owners.

Regards to you all,

Craig.

[Craig P]

Hi Ros,

Thanks for the link and suggesting reading, I will review do so right
away.

Regards,

Craig

[Suzie]

Fairpoint Craig - and yes, directness should definitely cut both ways
as it very often does on this site!! I'm backing off now. Apologies (I
think I already did, but I'm doing it again) for any offence caused
from moi. Honestly none intended, but five miles of concentrated,
paced running of a dog of 11months is not, in my opinion, the same as
the kind of stop/start/race about/have a wee/stop for a sniff/jump
around for a bit madness that I've experienced from any of our dogs at
that age and it's the concentrated, repetitive nature of running over
distance at your pace that (I think) we're suggesting isn't good for
growing joints. Of course you're free to disagree and tell me to stick
my opinions where the sun don't shine!

At the risk of sticking my neck out and getting a battering myself
(and I say this with no knowledge at all of your vet - even who they
are - don't tell me!!!) I would VERY VERY POLITELY suggest that all
vets are not right by default. For example, met a young vizsla in the
park two weeks ago who had, at the suggestion of the vet, been spayed
at five months old (to calm her down). Many many complications (and
another operation) later she's still not OK. There are many people on
this site who know the breed far better than many vets who would throw
their hands up in horror at the very suggestion of spaying a dog prior
to (at the very least) her first season and would tell us that doing
so risks all sorts of health problems - and yet 'THE VET' not only
advised it but carried out the procedure (and all subsequent
procedures). Nothing to do with your running thing of course, but just
one recent example of what a vet says not necessarily being right by
default. I tell this tale with some bitterness because we were
advised similarly (though with dire tales of breast cancer etc etc
rather than a behaviour issue) when our little bitch was young. Being
our first ever girl dog, we took the advice very seriously and spayed
she was, just after her first season. Cue many many directly related
health problems ever since, none of which we were warned about.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that whilst many vets are hugely
knowledgeable and generally great, unless they own vizslas themselves,
there are some occasions where, in my humble opinion, some of the
folks on this site (and I'm not necessarily counting myself as one of
them) may have a different perspective through experience that is
worth taking into account.

Anyway -

Best of luck with it all.

Suzie

[Recuer...@aol.com]

Hi Craig,

 

My little one doesn't get all her allotted time as off lead free running exercise. If she goes to her obedience class, I would not take her out at all that day. My reasons for being so cautious......her grandmother had very limited free running (I was really ill when she was a baby) & she grew up to be a lovely calm girl. Sasha's daughter had way too much free running (this caused her to go up on the leg wayyy too much & changed her shape, something I later had confirmed by someone with 15-20yrs longer in the breed than me, who also owned those bloodlines, at that time.)

 

Someone told one of my GSP puppy owners (they are 7yrs old now) that the more free running you give a youngster, the more they want, like an Olympic athlete who trains more & more & more, becoming superfit) now I personally don't want dogs that are whining to go out all day long, no amount of exercise satisfying them, I like less racey dogs at home but who have stamina to work all day on the shoot. That's just me though.

 

I've also had various other things drummed into me by friends who have 30-40yrs in my 2 breeds. They have given advice on more than one occasion that my own vet didn't know & did actually re-check & confirm!!! There are lots of breed specific  issues(& bloodline specific sometimes) that a vet may only know if they have been involved with that breed for many years. But this is just my own experience over the short time (10yrs) within Vizslas & GSPs, so just my personal observations.

[Craig P]

@ Suzie, thanks for the note and I agree with you. Like all things in
life there are good and bad be it people, doctors, vets, children,
dogs, owners but particularly true within 'the professions'. A title
is a guarantee of nothing.

@ Vicky, sensible argument about 'the more they get the more they
want' - I know I'm the same with good food :-)

Ultimately we all want our gingers to be happy, healthy and fit; to be
our velcro-companions for a very long time. Points noted.

[Susie Zarpanely]

Hi Craig
 
My turn to apologise for the bluntness that blew up this debate. Nice to meet you..... my name is Susie and I have to admit that although I have a lot to do with Viz, I don't actually own one now.
 
I have just lost a dog who came to me already damaged. Over the years I have spent a fortune on arthritis prevention through both conventional and homeopathic means, acupuncture over the last year, chiropractic treatment on his spine for the curvature caused by saving his front. He had his hearing his sight and full cognition but his bone structure crumbled round him. He made it to 11.9 years although I had thought he would be lucky to make 10. Last year he came out for the easy drives picking up.  This year all he managed was collecting pheasants at lunch time on the training days. His mind was all there and that made it soooooo hard to do.
 
 Vets...... great for medical problems but in matters of upbringing, behaviour and breed specific traits most are pretty useless (No disrespect to all you vets out there) I took on a 6 month Viz puppy for training a short while ago, he was being walked for an hour and a half in the morning and a further 3/4 in the afternoon. The Vet had said that was fine and to give him more if he needed it. The head nurse owns Vizslas and I am afraid I phoned in a complaint about his irresponsibility. The message has got through. Puppy is now using his brain and no-where near as hyper as he was.
 
If you are ill you go to a Doctor, to a teacher if you need knowledge, to Granny for matters of upbringing!! No-one can know it all and it is up to us to research and take out from the results, that which applies to our specific situation.
 
I live in an area with a high concentration of dogs of all breeds, frankly many are ill behaved and some downright dangerous, it is always the 'don't worry he is fine' ones who's owners do not admit that the dog is not fine and has bombed into a group with all the body signals which say come on then who is up for it.
 
What makes me really sad though is the number of dogs who no longer look like or behave like, the breed they are supposed to be. As Vicki said, over exercised =long legged fine boned, roached backed parodies of a beautiful breed. Almost worse they do not behave like a Vizsla they do not know how to hunt nor how to use their brains as the owners have not taken the trouble to discover what the breed is supposed to do. One owner of a 3 year old did not even know that her dog was a gundog she had bought it because it was pretty and the 'in' breed.
 
Here endeth my rant I am afraid I do feel very strongly about over exercise, not just because of my beautiful boy but because like Chrissie I pick up the pieces.
 
Apologies again for any disrespect
 
Susie
 
 
> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:10:55 -0800

> Subject: Re: How far can you run a Vizsla?

> From: cjpol...@mac.com
> To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com

[Ros Leighton]

You're welcome Craig- hope it was informative.

I note that others have already commented on the potential for veterinary
opinion being limited in its application to our breed. Actually, I think our
breed is little different to many other active, energetic breeds with regard
to their physical needs.

I would echo those that have said that the range of veterinary
knowledge/training/diversity varies enormously. And I don't think it's just
limited by their own professional skills/ability.

For instance, i don't have just one vet practice I go to... I have my
'usual' group, of whom I choose to use only two vets, and I have another for
'structural' stuff - a person whose practice is well patronised by greyhound
owners. They (and I) use Linda because of her experience/knowledge of
injuries, movement, etc.

I think it's also worth considering the 'dog years' of a vet vs 'dog years'
many owners have. Some vets don't even own dogs... (YIKES!, what are they
thinking?? <bg>) They are 'cat people' - but their generalist training means
that they are required to learn the basics about treating several species,
and their basic training is just that - general. And depending on the vet,
it can be 'dated' by the era of their training... things change..

I have to say that like all other list members I'm sure, I filter what I
hear based on my own experience/prejudice/etc. I've worked in an area of
human medicine for ...oh, too many years, and so that also adds to my own
filter. But I'm grateful to those who do pass on information, experience,
and share their concerns/stories.

Those who have dogs in 'performance' arenas - agility, hunting, etc - often
have their own network of particularly experienced 'informants' on
health/structure. Again, needing filters but adding to the 'dog years' of
information.

I know that the 'waiting' for a few months to pass is well worth the time
for peace of mind in the future... structure/arthritis, etc is
multi-factorial as we all know - genetic/environmental. Best to minimise
the potential for future impact.

Cheers
Ros

-----Original Message-----
From: ukvi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ukvi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf

Of Craig P
Subject: Re: How far can you run a Vizsla?

Hi Ros,

Thanks for the link and suggesting reading, .....

[Pam Joyce]

My vets work and breed HPRs. One of the great things about this is that they
have experienced whelping which many vets these days have not. Many vets
knowledge of whelping comes from "The Book of the Bitch". This is my
whelping bible and so if I need advice, a vet knows as little as I do is
useless.

My vets have two surgeries. One is ten minutes away and run by the wife who
works Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I always book appointments for these
days as the other vet is very young and condescending. I suspect that as Ros
has described she is a vet who has never owned a dog and is really a cat
person who has to put up with dogs as part of her job.

If I have an emergency on Tuesday or Thursday I go to the other practice run
by the husband which is thirty minutes away but staffed entirely by dog
friendly people. There are two other vets at the practice, one shows and
breeds Golden Retrievers and the other writes for a monthly dog magazine.
All three are very approachable, slightly older (therefore more experienced)
and do something that a lot of young vets don't do - discuss treatment with
you and involve you in the decision making.

Being a vet used to be a vocation for people who loved animals but I think a
lot of people train to be vets now because it can be a lucrative career.
Before all you young, keen, dog loving vets berate me I know that this is a
generalisation but sadly it seems that you are now in the minority. Sadly
the days of James Herriot are gone.

Pam

----- Original Message -----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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07:46:00

[Knoesen Corinne]

I just wonder if I could ask a question about spaying?  I have a 10 month bitch who had her first season at 8 months.  We intend to spay her & having read as much as I can find I am thinking that after 14 months is the earliest recommended time?  Given the date of her first season, I imagine she will probably come into season at about 14 months - so if I add about 3 months to this (to arrive at a point between 2 seasons), we would likely spay her when she is about 17 months.  I would be really greatful for any advice as whilst we don't want puppies (& can/do supervise her very closely during her season) - we really really don't want to spay her too soon.  I am sure it is all a compromise (and I would consider just having her tubes tied - but I think she would still come into season w/ all the disruptive effect that would have on the male dogs) - but all advice very much welcomed.

Cheers

C o r i n n e (& Fettle - who has a bank account where she is saving up to be spayed - except she doesn't know it yet . . .)

+44 (0)7734 052 089

corinne...@fusemail.com

[Strassenbahnhaltestelle]

hi, i am in with Helgs,

11 months is way too young to run, but people need to be told a few
times, and in a few ways, why it is bad. we can;t simply assume that
people take in all the subtle information on this forum. I noticed it
when Ross posted after me, as he was in absolute horror at what i'd
said. i felt completely innocent as i assumed that Ben would
understand from my post that his dog may never run with him all the
days....a 1.5 hour run is possible in my view, even on subsequent
days, if the dog has no issues whatever, no stretching etc, and the
running is on soft ground and off lead. not all dogs are made for
this, some are.

the most important lesson for new Viz owners [and i was also there
once] is to learn to train the dogs to be calm without giving exercise
[Vizslas don't really tire, they get fitter is the saying...another
misleading one i note]. i know Vigo is the easiest dog in the world,
but she was 7 months old when i got her, which is a really bouncy
time, and in the beginning i only encouraged calm behaviour, and did
tons of training sessions spread throughout the day. Craig, i don't
know if you do gundog training at all, but in the beginning you teach
lots of self control exercises, a bit like obedience, but gentle, and
memory exercises that really tire out a bouncy youngster. three
sessions a day and a bit of nose work at home [hiding things] will
help probably more than running. also encourage calmness a lot, even
when out, for instance when in a park, dog should lie down, at first
on a lead, and only is released when he is relaxed [truly relaxed, a
difference between alert and near snoozing], two or three times when
in park, then reward is play. soon he'll learn to be more relaxed in
and outdoors. anohter good tip i learnt from a great trainer is to
have a day off - a day per week where the dog gets no walk [but a
training session at home, however small home is, just do sits and
downs, work to half hour mark down relax over a few months, will be
wonderful], not simply in order to recover from previous days, but to
encourage relaxation without too much anticipation of walkies.

i think that having a new first pup one is too excited to think with
an experienced head on - and a forum like this can help educate
people. i do think different opinions are really important and this is
the way in which one can make up ones own mind, and i also heard many
such things as "after 6 months it's fine to run" .... which is
nonsense of course, like taking a child running.

xxAndrea

On Nov 23, 6:59 pm, "Helga Root" <h...@root7.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi Susie
>
> I totally agree with all you and Suzie have said but I just think that the
> 'pill' is sometimes better delivered with a little sugar, then it goes down
> and doesn't get spat out!!  I have no idea who Craig is or how long he has
> followed the group discussion but imagine what he would think if today was
> his first visit.  We now have a chance to stop his youngster from further
> damage but only if he listens to us and perhaps he will now.  I am sure that
> he loves his dog and had no idea how damaging this exercise is, but
> hopefully, all the wonderful and caring advice that has been delivered on
> this subject over the last two weeks (and many more times before that as
> well) will help Craig realize and then he will be able to share this and
> help educate other Vizsla owning friends too.  
>
> This group has a wealth of knowledge and I have learned so much in the last
> four years and then, in turn, been able to help others because of that.  And
> long may it continue, lets keep on caring and sharing!!
>
> Helgs  
>
>   _____  
>

> From: ukvi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ukvi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Susie Zarpanely
> Sent: 23 November 2009 18:40
> To: vizsla discussion group
> Subject: RE: How far can you run a Vizsla?
>
> Hi Helgs I know I was blunt but as you pointed out all the advice has been
> on the forum for months (and more) and it looks as if he either hasn't taken
> it in or it has gone right over his head and there he is giving dangerous
> advice to some one who is asking for sensible help. Lost my rag I know, it
> is something we hear over and over again "I have to tire him out ,he needs
> to run or he is a nightmare in the house,"Then of course there is "why can't
> I get my dog back?" or how can I get my dog back? It really is quite simple
> the adrenaline is flowing, the hunting instinct is rushing through his head
> and the more excersise you give, the more he will take, therefore the more
> he will need. Slow it all down and stimulate the brain, it matters not what
> with, gundog, obedience, agility or tricks, Clicker, whistle, treats, or
> games The dog will be shattered and more importantly sound.Yes maybe I
> should have been gentler and more polite but sometimes a short sharp shock
> works to get a message through Sorry Helgs, now I am going to turn off the
> computer till you have all come flying back at me  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Susie
>
>   _____  
>

[Elaine Bradley]

Hi Corinne

 

I would always recommend for a bitch to have had at least 1 season and be at least over 12 months of age before spaying, so sounds to me that you're planning the right time for Fettle (love that name).  I don't believe you can just have tubes tied so it would have to be a full spay.

 

For castration of dogs I would always recommend they are at least over 12 months of age before the have the op, but it would also depend to some extent on the maturity in body and mind of the individual as some dogs (unlike most bitches) of 12 months really are still babies.

 

Personally I've never spayed or castrated any of my dogs at a young age but in my experience of my lines and of the breed these timeframes have been about right.

 

JMHO

Elaine

Highforce Hungarian Vizslak, UK

www.freewebs.com/highforce

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Knoesen Corinne

To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com

[Chrissie Gone West]

This one for Pam (and I agree that it can be hard to find a good vet
these days ... I am greatly disillusioned by them overall, although
mine is lovely and I rarely need her, so that's even better still!)

Published 17 November 2009, doi:10.1136/ bmj.b4883
Cite this as: BMJ 2009;339:b4883

Views & Reviews

From the Frontline

It shouldn't happen to a vet
Des Spence, general practitioner, Glasgow

des...@yahoo.co.uk

Vets used to be drawn from farming stock - they usually had too many
teeth, too few teeth, too much hair, too little hair, no eyebrows,
only a monobrow or were too tall, too short, too fat, too thin - all
in the uniform of check shirt and waxed jacket. These were the
academic elite, when getting three As at A-levels was the result not
of private tutors, parental appeals, or fanatical swotting but
something called brains. A macho profession to every man and woman,
they were academic boars not bores. They would have a pint between
exam papers, sing crude vet school songs, be barred from the student
union, and break limbs during drunken nights out. But despite their
wanton nerdiness, elephant cords, and lack of social niceties (or
perhaps because of), I liked them a lot.

After qualification, for vets there were no "training grades" and no
safety blanket of the NHS; instead of CVs there were job interviews
held at a pub lunch. The job was general "mixed" practice for all:
cows, snakes, horses, chinchillas, dogs, and cats. Isolated in small
practices, with weekends, evenings, overnights, and one in three rotas
- it was just hard work. Treatments were dispensed in brown envelopes
with felt tip pen instructions. Sometimes bills couldn't be paid, so
owners paid what they could. No real profit but a real vocation.
Decisions had to be made with limited investigation and referral, but
vets shared GPs' faith in the holy trinity of communication,
experience, and continuity. Small town vets and GPs were comrades in
arms and, rightfully, were equally respected.

However, times change. Large animal vet practice has all but perished,
along with many farming communities.

But it is veterinary care insurance for small animals that has
fundamentally changed practice - in a way all too familiar to us GPs.
Costs have spiralled, and investigations, referrals, bogus conditions,
and chemotherapy are now all standard. Dogs now lick their emotional
wounds on the chewed couch of the pet psychologists, who peddle the
obvious to the oblivious. Vets deal not with animals' ill health but
with dependent health seeking behaviour from owners with distorted
health beliefs.

And specialisation is undermining the status of the "generalist."
Expensive branded drugs are being peddled by big pharma
representatives. Corporations are moving in, buying up practices; and
big business dictates "total billing," with the flogging of
"scientific" diets, dog collars, and toothbrushes. Vets have even been
seduced into brushing (even straightening) hair. But, dearest old
friends, don't lose faith in the old ways - for we doctors know that
progress is not all that it seems.

Cite this as: BMJ 2009;339:b4883

Chrissie

[Pam Joyce]

Corinne

 

Chrissie posted this link earlier this month http://www.gpmcf.org:80/respectovaries.html

I think you will find it interesting reading.

 

You don't have to spay her because you don't want puppies. The "disruptive effect" is used to scare people into spaying bitches. Those of us who show or work bitches deal with seasons, some even have entire males in the same household.

 

Think carefully and do what is right for you and Fettle, not what is right for other people.

 

regards

Pam

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Knoesen Corinne

To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 4:35 PM

[Pam Joyce]

Chrissie

It made me laugh but sadly is so true. I'm a great believer that the more
you visit the vet the more "sick" your animal becomes! (and the same for
humans & GPs!)

Pam

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chrissie Gone West" <vit...@gmail.com>
To: "ukvizsla" <ukvi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: How far can you run a Vizsla?


>
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.81/2524 - Release Date: 11/24/09
19:37:00

[Knoesen Corinne]

Many thanks for the replies I received (& for not pointing out that I had pressed send before correcting the Subject 'How far can you run a Vizsla?')

It certainly gave me food for thought re. not having her spayed (even though we don't intend to have puppies).  I mentioned having her tubes tied in a previous post & have now done a bit of research.  Apparently it is possible in dogs (obviously I suppose since they can do it in humans - albeit somewhat fiddly!!).  And of course it might be a challenge finding a vet.  I wonder if anyone has any thoughts or even better, has had any experience of it.  It seems to me it would remove the possibility of puppies, but without some of the negatives of spaying (which most vets don't seem to mention).  With this option, we would still have her coming into season with all the inconvenience that brings (although without risk of puppies).

I suppose another option is a hysterectomy.  I believe this would preserve the hormones from the ovaries, but she wouldn't properly come into season.  Well - I suppose she might smell like it, but there wouldn't be any mess.

As you can see - am thinking about this quite a lot.  Many thanks for any input.

On the subject of caring for your pet - ou know those anxiety dreams you have where all your teeth crumble & fall out?  Well last night I had an anxiety dream about Fettle's teeth - somehow she had broken all 4 of her canines.  I was pretty much as upset as if it had been my own teeth!!!

Cheers

C o r i n n e

+44 (0)7734 052 089

corinne...@fusemail.com

[Susie Zarpanely]

Hi Chrissie  How on earth did you come across this? It is brillient but the scary thing is I can remember........
Like the GP the Vet came to the house but we saw him outside because he had come from the cattle down the road! The GP wore striped trousers and black waistcoat under a black jacket and drank his whiskey neat, The vet and the doctor smelled the same ...of whiskey. There was a lot of laughter, a lot of common sense and more often than not they both forgot to leave the medication!!!!
Like you  I rarely need the vet and mine is also lovely. I popped in today to say thank you for her message about Codey (his casket came back today) and we spent half an hour talking Viz. On the other hand I had asked to collect the xrays that were taken the day he died, only, to be told by an officious chief nurse()from the main surgery) that they belonged to the practice and they had to be kept there for 7 years for legal reasons. We will see...............Either they let me have them or just maybe they find I don't pay for them? Anyone any ideas on this one?
 
Susie 
> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:49:20 -0800

> Subject: Re: How far can you run a Vizsla?

> From: vit...@gmail.com
> To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com

[Chrissie Diron]

That happens a lot Pam. My husband used to say "buy a puppy, get a membership to the vet's office", but it doesn't have to be that way. I do call on my vet if I really have something perplexing to contend with and for diagnostics, but mostly I handle things myself and my vet knows I can and doesn't hassle me over it (I am totally self taught, so anyone can do this). I'm hugely into promoting good health and wellness, as opposed to reacting to bad health and illness. My efforts go into avoiding problems in the first place. So far this has served me well. My dogs are doing great since my change of approach - the one who has problems stemming from his early years (when I did jump to the vet for every little thing and regret many of those moves) is also coping well thanks to gentle and holistic support. We're having a big party here Sunday for his 13th birthday :-) My husband and I also look after ourselves and haven't seen a doctor in all the time we've been in Canada (6.5 years now - we have no GP). Prior to that we only visited the doc in England once for essential tests/medicals related to our immigration visa (so that was in a span of 6 years too). Interestingly I went to the doc frequently prior to that when I lived in Germany and that was the sickest period of my life. Stress played a part, but it was also the only time in my life that I relied on doctors to sort me out and took medication. Since I made my health my affair and responsibility, things have been great. We no longer live in the age of James Herriot and I really feel that we must educate ourselves to be able to assume responsibility for our health (and that of our animals), because the buck stops here. Our knowledge and actions dictate how it will be in the future.

[Strassenbahnhaltestelle]

hi Craig,

sometimes when one posts none of the other posts are yet up, which was
the case with mine. i can see that you are the victim of interwebbing
- i.e. that one has to be very careful how one phrases posts, else
they get chewed up. you seem to think about what you are doing.
running can just sound 'wrong' if you know what i mean...even when you
mean run a lap round the park in a circle, or just playing race me
etc. sorry of i sounded presumptive, really didn't meant to.

Andrea

[Radar Red Dog]

Hi Corinne

I'm afraid I can't help you with your "anxiety dreams" but I know what
you mean...I frequently have them re Radar...I guess that means I love
him loads!!!?

Re spaying - I have to admit that I'm very anti spaying/neutering
unless there's a medical reason...so far I've never had to resort to
it with any of my dogs (before Radar I've just had bitches). I've got
pretty good recall with Radar (you'll see a previous post re this) so
bitches in season haven't been a particular issue with him so far.
Bitch wise, I've always just been careful when exercising them when
they're in season i.e. late night/early morning walks, using "nappies"
etc. Obviously you've got to do what's right in your circumstances but
please remember that once Fettle's spayed there's no going back...just
be really really sure that's it's the right thing to do for you both.

Juliet

On Nov 25, 11:00 am, Knoesen Corinne <corinneknoe...@fusemail.com>
wrote:

> corinneknoe...@fusemail.com

>
> On 25 Nov 2009, at 09:13, Pam Joyce wrote:
>
>
>
> > Corinne
>

> > Chrissie posted this link earlier this monthhttp://www.gpmcf.org:80/respectovaries.html

> > corinneknoe...@fusemail.com

> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
> > Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.80/2523 - Release Date:  

> > 11/24/09 07:46:00- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Radar Red Dog]

Oh Susie

I'm so sorry to hear about Codey...just keep thinking about all those
good times & how he's now able to run free with all his friends over
the rainbow bridge.

Officious nurses & vets...gruuuggghhhh...they make me so mad...they're
just so insensitive...gruuugghhh. When Radar had to go for a check-up
after his heartworm problems my usual vet was away & we had to see a
locum - Radar, being a normal friendly viz, went up to her
immediately...her response..."keep your dog away, he'll get hairs all
over my trousers". I won't repeat MY response...


Juliet x

On Nov 25, 10:57 pm, Susie Zarpanely <susiez...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Chrissie  How on earth did you come across this? It is brillient but the scary thing is I can remember........
>
> Like the GP the Vet came to the house but we saw him outside because he had come from the cattle down the road! The GP wore striped trousers and black waistcoat under a black jacket and drank his whiskey neat, The vet and the doctor smelled the same ...of whiskey. There was a lot of laughter, a lot of common sense and more often than not they both forgot to leave the medication!!!!
> Like you  I rarely need the vet and mine is also lovely. I popped in today to say thank you for her message about Codey (his casket came back today) and we spent half an hour talking Viz. On the other hand I had asked to collect the xrays that were taken the day he died, only, to be told by an officious chief nurse()from the main surgery) that they belonged to the practice and they had to be kept there for 7 years for legal reasons. We will see...............Either they let me have them or just maybe they find I don't pay for them? Anyone any ideas on this one?
>
> Susie
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:49:20 -0800
> > Subject: Re: How far can you run a Vizsla?

> > From: vita...@gmail.com

> > Chrissie- Hide quoted text -

[Chrissie Diron]

Are you serious Juliet - a vet worried about hair on her trousers?! That just about takes the biscuit. How can you NOT get some sort of hair on you, handling animals all day?! She really should have chosen a different career. I'm gobsmacked. 

[Chantal Fisher]

Hi Corrine

On the other side of the coin - we had to have Hassle spayed at 2 1/2 after her 2nd season due to a pyometra (infected uterus) - we had no choice. We did discuss it all with the vet who was frank about the possibility of incontinence, but she was firmly convinced that if tied off high enough that shouldn't happen.  Well Hassle is 9 now and does - very occasionally have a little problem, most probably caused by not being bothered to go out when she has to because it is raining, or she is very deeply asleep (early evening)  After all, you can't teach a dog to do pelvic floor exercises can you????  We did have to cut her food down by 50% to keep her sylph like figure, but apart from that - she's great - alive and unlikely to have mammary tumours.  I also have to say that she was a very clean and tidy girl during her seasons, but a friend on mine had a bitch who's seasons were reminiscent of the Texas Chainsaw Murders - blood everywhere!  She had to keep her in the washable dog room for her entire season (pants etc were removed by her - so no use).  I, would preferably wait until maturity though, even if the Guide Dogs are spayed at 6 months.  JMHO

Chantal x

 

[Radar Red Dog]

Hi Chrissie

Unfortunately I was deadly serious &, guess what, I complained to the
senior partner...haven't seen that locum in the practice since!!

Juliet

[Recuer...@aol.com]

Glad you complained Juliet!

That is just ridiculous!!!! It would be funny if it wasn't true.

 

Vicky x