Upcoming Launch\RSGB\National Coding Week

[Mark Harper]

HI all

Some of you may have already seen this!

https://rsgb.org/main/coding-and-amateur-radio/lora-balloon-project/

We're running it in conjunction with the RSGB as part of their National
Coding Week activities.

There will be a video and (hopefully) a live stream of the launch, but
there won't be any pics beamed back.  We're just running the LoRA APRS
iGate on this one

Thanks

Mark

[Gavin Gill]

Hi Mark,

This looks very exciting!

Do you think there is any chance I could shadow the launch or volunteer in any way?

Kind Regards,

Gavin Gill
Ga...@me.com
+44 (0)750 1190 786

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Jul 2025, at 14:55, Mark Harper <mw1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> HI all

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[John Laidler]

I'm guessing other than the frequency an existing tracker coded as described on the SOTA forum will work?

It would be nice if the balloon could be tracked on amateur-sondehub although that would probably be need another payload added.

I'll be in northern France when the launch happens and will take a 70cm Yagi with me and wave it (with fingers crossed) towards Wales.  :-)

John

M0WIV 

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[Steve]

Reading through the document
(https://rsgb.services/public/events/RSGB_LoRA_ARPS_Balloon_Tracker_1.5_final.pdf):

I see the the down-link frequency that is going to be used is
433.850MHz.  The document correctly identifies that the UK amateur radio
license doesn't allow airborne operation on this band - but that license
exempt operation is allowed.

I don't believe that I've seen anything from Ofcom that allows amateur
radio use of license exempt operation airborne?   It seems very
questionable to me - its cross service operation - its like a radio
amateur talking cross band to a marine band user, or like amateurs
creating a cross band voice repeater that uses PMR446 as an output - I'm
pretty sure that would not be allowed?

In any event operation on 433.850MHz, at the mentioned +10mW ERP,
requires a less than 10% duty cycle (or 1mW operation) - see IR2030.

I would have though it safer to use 2m for the downlink.

    Steve G8KHW

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[Martin Perrett]

The RSGB details say it will be a hot air balloon but show the normal helium balloon. Do they understand what is happening?

Martin G8LCE

[Steve]

Yeah - I saw that - I'd just assumed the usual level of inaccuracy associated with a press release.  But one wonders.

    Steve

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[Mika Köching]

That seems interesting. Maybe I'll launch a balloon with a LoRa tracker here in Germany. That should easily reach the digipeater in the UK.

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[Steve]

Just about doable - about 1000Km from where they are launching to southern Germany.  A couple of balloons above 20,000m should see each other that far apart.

    Steve G8KHW

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[Nick McCloud]

On Sunday, 27 July 2025 at 20:45:18 UTC+1 Steve wrote:

 

 It seems very questionable to me - its cross service operation - ...  I'm

pretty sure that would not be allowed?

I guess it's a matter of perspective - it's passively listening on one frequency that only license holders can use and then passing that information on, on an unlicensed frequency. But given that it is a relay and all the regs around that it does strange.

 

In any event operation on 433.850MHz, at the mentioned +10mW ERP,
requires a less than 10% duty cycle (or 1mW operation) - see IR2030.

Hopefully they are bundling the received packets, rate limiting / dropping duplicates or multiple submissions from the same call sign before they transmit. Otherwise just a few peeps waving a Yagi at it could cause it to be overwhelmed.

I'm planning on "moving" to the Faroe Islands or at least that's what the GNSS module might report ;-)

 

In the meanwhile, and I'll post more details shortly, I'm using one of the balloons you gave me to fly a 2m CW beacon for Bolton Wireless Club at the end of the month.

[Nick McCloud]

Gavin,

Where, approximately, do you live so pointers can be given on seeing / participating in a launch?

Are you hoping to do a launch of your own and if so, who with?

[Steve]

Yes it does seem strange - nothing in the ham license changes enables
this operation - so it's something that could have been done anytime
over the last 15+ years that we have been doing HAB - yet I'm sure it
would have been considered illegal and royally criticized.  I remember
someone using their ham radio callsign for a 70cms balloon payload once ...

    Steve G8KHW

On 07/08/2025 23:28, Nick McCloud wrote:
>
> I guess it's a matter of perspective - it's passively listening on one
> frequency that only license holders can use and then passing that
> information on, on an unlicensed frequency. But given that it is a
> relay and all the regs around that it does strange.

[M5AKA]

Steve,

Despite what some may think there is not a prohibition on amateurs using their callsign on frequencies or services other than amateur radio. Use of amateur callsigns for balloon ID's has always been permitted.

There is no prohibition on amateur transmissions on 2m being relayed by a licence exempt device on 70cm. 

If you look back the past 40 or 50 years you'll see UK amateurs carrying out 2-way split frequency contact with stations transmitting outside of bands in UK licence conditions.

Remember if the licence doesn't specifically forbid something then it's permitted.  I know some amateurs mistakenly expect Ofcom to list every single thing amateurs are permitted to do, it doesn't work that way.   If it's not explicitly banned then you can do it, this has been Ofcom's way of doing things ever since they were created, it gives us the freedom to experiment. 

Trevor

On Sunday, 27 July 2025 at 20:45:18 UTC+1 Steve wrote:

[Steve]

Comments below:

    Steve G8KHW

On 08/08/2025 11:43, 'M5AKA' via UKHAS wrote:

Steve,

Despite what some may think there is not a prohibition on amateurs using their callsign on frequencies or services other than amateur radio. Use of amateur callsigns for balloon ID's has always been permitted.

SR: that's my view too (after all there are no restrictions on licence exempt "callsign" or format). 

There is no prohibition on amateur transmissions on 2m being relayed by a licence exempt device on 70cm. 

If you look back the past 40 or 50 years you'll see UK amateurs carrying out 2-way split frequency contact with stations transmitting outside of bands in UK licence conditions.

SR:  There may be a history,  but The UK license says:   

    "Making transmissions  19. Unless the Radio Equipment is being used for the purposes of clause 5 (disaster situations), the Licensee must ensure that

        a) Transmissions are only addressed to one or more amateur radio station(s);"

Amateurs can only message amateurs - not other services (unless its a disaster situation). That's the way I've always understood it.

Remember if the licence doesn't specifically forbid something then it's permitted. 

SR: as above

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[M5AKA]

Steve, Two aspects to this: 

(1.) Amateur station to HAB

20. The Licensee may not make transmissions (either directly or for onward transmission by another station) for general reception other than:
c) Messages transmitted by a Beacon or via a Data Station for reception by Amateurs.

An amateur can operate a Beacon station.  The transmission can containing any data the amateur wishes subject to Section 127 Communications Act 2003 and other relevant legislation.

An HAB containing a licence-exempt 433 MHz transmitter, using a callsign of say G8KHW-08, can receive that beacon and retransmit the data in 433/4 MHz.  There are no restrictions in IR-2030 that prevent that.

(2.) HAB to Amateur station

There is no prohibition on individuals, whether amateurs or not, listening to transmissions from licence exempt devices that fall within the scope of IR-2030.

The amateur can then extract the data content of that signal and transmit that data in the 2m band.

My understanding is this has been the case ever since personal beacons were permitted which must over 30 years ago? 

Trevor

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ukhas/227a5caf-ddd5-4cf4-9785-d3701722c3bf%40randomaerospace.com

.

[M5AKA]

Steve, I got called away yesterday and wasn't able to post my follow up which is this scenario:

(3.) Amateur station on 2m (or indeed 70cm) transmitting a message directed specifically to a HAB 

Now this is an interesting one and I'd be interested in your thoughts, this is how I see it:

For many years now amateurs could operate Receive-only Gateways, these typically received 144.800 APRS and fed the information received via the Internet and it could be viewed on aprs.fi 

But it doesn't have to be a connection to the Internet, there is nothing preventing a Receive-only Gateway passing the information on to some other device, for instance passing it to a telephone connection or passing it to an IR-2030 licence-exempt device. 

Imagine this scenario, an amateur, M0ABC, sets up the following equipment in their home - a 2 metre transceiver in one room and a Receive-only Gateway in another.  The Gateway is configured to look for transmissions addressed to M0ABC-08 and to pass the contents of those transmissions to a licence-exempt IR-20230 device that transmits on 434 MHz. 

Now if M0ABC makes a transmission from one room to the Gateway in the other, which retransmits it on 434 and I'm sure we'd all agree that is permitted under both the Amateur licence and IR-2030.

M0ABC then takes their Gateway and licence-exempt device, sticks it on a balloon and launches it.  M0ABC then makes a transmission to M0ABC-08 at an altitude of 15,000 meters.   The IR-2030 licence-exempt device then transmits what the Receive-only Gateway passed to it on 434 MHz.

Now I'd content that no regulations have been breached by doing that.  Amateurs are permitted to make transmissions to a remote receive-only gateway. If you wished you could set up a remote receive-only gateway on a hill 25km from you and make transmission to it for say propagation tests or any other reason. There is nothing preventing you doing the same with a remote receive-only gateway floating at 15,000m.

The amateur licence only prohibits that Gateway from transmitting in the Amateur Service but by definition a receive-only gateway doesn't transmit in the Amateur Service.

The Gateway can now do whatever it likes with the data it receives addressed to M0ABC-08 - there are no licence restrictions on that, nothing stopping it passing that data to a licence-exempt device sitting next to it in the balloons payload.  As long as the that device conforms to IR-2030 requirements it can transmit that data which can then be received by anyone in the footprint of the balloon.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on it.

73 Trevor M5AKA

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.

[Steve]

In my mind the key thing is that the transmissions to the balloon are from a ground Amateur Radio station to something that is clearly outside the amateur radio service.  The balloon can't legally be inside the amateur radio service if its transmitting airborne on 70cms.

Your example with the 2 metre transceiver in one room and a Receive-only Gateway in another connected via a license exempt link is not the same - this is because the amateur radio service ends at the transceiver - the transceiver is communication with other transceivers within the amateur radio service (i.e via amateur radio).   With the balloon the intent is clearly to transmit between amateur radio stations inside the amateur radio service via something that is (and must be) outside the amateur radio service.

Consider a similar scenario but ground based - a hill-top voice repeater is set up to receive 2m transmissions and repeat them to PMR446 - amateurs transmit on 2m and listen to 446  - your saying that's allowed even though the repeater is clearly outside the amateur radio service?

    Steve G8KHW

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[M5AKA]

Steve G8KHW wrote "Consider a similar scenario but ground based - a hill-top voice repeater is set up to receive 2m transmissions and repeat them to PMR446 - amateurs transmit on 2m and listen to 446  - your saying that's allowed even though the repeater is clearly outside the amateur radio service?"

I didn't say that Steve, I purposely referred to IR-2030 licence-exempt devices.   PMR-446 is covered by IR-2009, it has different regulations.

However, let me suggest this ground-based scenario - a hill-top voice repeater is set up to receive 2m transmissions and repeat them to the 800 MHz LTE band (4G phone network).  That is also permitted. 

I can see what you are saying you see the balloons payload as being a single entity but in the HAB scenario I view it as two separate entities being carried by the balloon, the Amateur Receive-only Gateway M0ABC-08 operating in the Amateur Service and the licence-exempt device operating within IR-2030.

You can make use of multiple services in a balloon payload

73 Trevor M5AKA

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[Steve]

PMR 446 is also covered by IR2030 as a license exempt SRD (the last entry in section 3 in my copy):

So I think the hilltop 2m - PMR446 repeater example is valid (and 446MHz is covered by many ham radios too!).   I'm sure the PMR-446 users are going to enjoy the ham radio traffic (:  

I can see how you might consider the receive and transmit entities on the balloon as separate - that might be true except they are linked together with the explicit aim of carrying (re-broadcasting) amateur radio traffic. 

Maybe the RSGB should consider this before setting a precedent.

    Steve G8KHW

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[M5AKA]

Thanks for the correction Steve, PMR446 is indeed in IR-2030 as well as IR-2009 but of course not usable airborne.  I should have been more explicit and said an IR2030/1/10 licence-exempt device.

Amateur radio traffic has for many years been "re-broadcast" by connecting a transceiver to the Internet.   There is no prohibition on connecting a radio to other services such as the Internet or IR2030/1/10 devices and re-transmitting the data and of course web streaming a station is another form of broadcast of the audio as well as video of the operator.

I appreciate your point of view but I know RSGB will ensure all operation is within the terms of the Amateur licence and the terms of other services used in the payload such as IR2030/1/10 devices.

I look forward to the launch.

Trevor

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