How to separate left and right modifier key?

[101001101]

I've already separated left and right shift into different keymaps, but it doesn't work. Anybody knows how to figure it out? Thanks so much!

[John Brownie]

The simple answer is that it cannot be done. As far as I am aware, no current Apple system provides separate left and right modifier keys to the keyboard system. It was possible a couple of decades ago, but not currently.

John 

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 at 12:04, 101001101 <galaxyz...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've already separated left and right shift into different keymaps, but it doesn't work. Anybody knows how to figure it out? Thanks so much!

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John Brownie, john_b...@sil.org

Mussau-Emira language, New Ireland Province, Papua New Guinea

Kouvola, Finland

[Gé van Gasteren]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 5:04 AM 101001101 <galaxyz...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've already separated left and right shift into different keymaps, but it doesn't work. Anybody knows how to figure it out? Thanks so much!

 

Help menu > Ukelele Manual (PDF) 

[101001101]

Thank you for your recommendation. I've just read the related part of it:

".....The only keyboards that actually generate separate left and right modifier key combinations are very old, being ADB keyboards, which means that they cannot be used with Mac OS X 10.3 or later. No USB Apple keyboard (which is every current keyboard, including Bluetooth keyboards, confusingly) will actually produce separate right and left modifier key codes. It is possible that a third-party keyboard could produce such codes, but that’s not clear or predictable, and you probably wouldn’t be able to use a keyboard layout that depended on that with any other keyboard.
So, the best advice is to just assume that you can only use the five different modifier keys in their various combinations. In theory, that gives you up to 32 different modifier key combinations, which should be sufficient."

Unfortunately, the answer's still there is no solution for my case.

[Gé van Gasteren]

I know, life is hard sometimes!

But wait, let’s get a wider view here, if you like:

What was the thing you were trying to achieve by separating the modifier keys?

Maybe there are other ways to get there…

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[101001101]

Hi there,

I'd like to have more combinations of modifier keys, because I was setting up a lot of different layouts^^ I know it sounds crazy, because 5 modifier keys could already create quite a few combinations. But I need more.

After doing some google searchs, maybe I should give a try to this application https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/

Looks like it could help me separate those left and right modifier keys.

Anyway, thank you for spending time on my question.

[Gé van Gasteren]

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 5:55 AM 101001101 <galaxyz...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi there,

I'd like to have more combinations of modifier keys, because I was setting up a lot of different layouts^^ I know it sounds crazy, because 5 modifier keys could already create quite a few combinations. But I need more.

Maybe I’ve got some ideas for you…

* Have you considered using CapsLock to double the number of layouts?

That would mean first pressing CapsLock, then typing whatever keystrokes are needed, and then pressing CapsLock again to return to the "standard" layout set. This is only practical if you have two more or less separate uses, of course.

You may also need a little app that puts an icon into the menu bar indicating whether CapsLock is currently up or down.

* A similar thing can be done by making one key a so-called dead key. Pressing that key switches to a second set of layouts, where you then type a second keystroke (with any number of modifier keys pressed, of course) to generate the character. The difference with CapsLock is that after that second keypress, the keyboard returns to the first layout set automatically.

I have done that: I made the key to the left of the Z key (which gives a second \ on some keyboards) into a dead key.

Typing that key followed by a "g" outputs my first name "Gé"; typing it followed by itself (in other words, typing it twice) produces äö (a diphthong used in Limburgish).

After doing some google searchs, maybe I should give a try to this application https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/

Looks like it could help me separate those left and right modifier keys.

Yes, Karabiner is different from Ukelele in that it installs an app that constantly monitors your keystrokes and if it finds a match in one of its tables, it replaces that keystroke. This way, it lets you influence the functions of modifier keys, cursor keys, etc., which is not possible through customizing a keyboard layout table.

[101001101]

Awesome advice!

In case of CapsLock, I think I've already tried every possible combinations related to it.

And using dead key sounds like a little bit slow, if one just wants switch to a totally new set of layouts to type normally.

Thank you for trying to help, Gé!

[Sorin Paliga]

One may maximize the number of available chars by using option, option-shift and option-capslock. I have created one such keylayout, it includes the level option-capslock. Of course, capslock must be pressed twice: before the action and after the action. I included this level for rarely used chars. Of course, “rare” is something relative. For some users some chars may be frequent. 

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[Gé van Gasteren]

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 8:54 PM 101001101 <galaxyz...@gmail.com> wrote:

Awesome advice!

In case of CapsLock, I think I've already tried every possible combinations related to it.

And using dead key sounds like a little bit slow, if one just wants switch to a totally new set of layouts to type normally.

Thank you for trying to help, Gé!

No problem, that’s what the group is for!

CL already used: I have a question: with so many characters in one keyboard layout, how are you going to remember all the keystrokes?

And: might it be easier to divide them over two layouts?

After all, you could use a shortcut (Ctrl-Space, as default) to switch between them.

Dead key: Personally, I don’t like the combinations with Option etc., because with those, I have to get my hands out of the normal position for typing.

I much prefer to have one key in the normal keyset (all modifier keys up) reserved for accessing another set of characters.

But then, everyone has their own preferences…

[Sorin Paliga]

On 12 Nov 2022, at 22:20, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a question: with so many characters in one keyboard layout, how are you going to remember all the keystrokes?

This is a good question, and this is why I created my own Extended keylayout for linguistic purposes. The reason: Apple’s solution (now labelled ABC-Extended) has a series of non-mnemotechnic combinations, therefore difficult to remeber. So, my solution:

option-. = dot below, e.g. ṇ

option-shift . = dob above, e.g. ṅ 

option- o = o below, e.g. ḁ

option-shift o = å etc.

Of course, some conventions must be admitted, e.g. the ones already “traditional” in macOS‥ 

option-e = acute, e.g. é

option-u = umlaut, e.g. ü (because that’s the most frequent in German)

option-a = long vowel, e.g. ā

option-c = cedilla, e.g. ç etc.. 

In a linguistic text, one may admit that not all of such possible combinations are used, but just several, depending on the needs/language/dialect involved. With a reasonable number of such combinations, it is relatively easy for any user to learn the combinations frequently used. If rare, well, that is why the Keyboard Viewer is there. 

If another script is involved, e.g. Cyrillic or Korean, well, there is a reasonable mnemotechnical layout. For Cyrillic, the so-called Cyrillic QWERTY, which approximates as far as possible the Cyrillic letters for a Latin keylayout.

[101001101]

𝕳𝖆𝖍𝖆, 𝖋𝖆𝖎𝖗 𝖊𝖓𝖔𝖚𝖌𝖍 𝕼𝖚𝖊𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓!

𝚈𝚘𝚞 𝚔𝚗𝚘𝚠 𝚠𝚑𝚊𝚝, 𝚒 𝚝𝚑𝚒𝚗𝚔 𝚒 𝚍𝚒𝚍𝚗'𝚝 𝚞𝚜𝚎 𝚗𝚎𝚠 𝚔𝚎𝚢𝚋𝚘𝚊𝚛𝚍 𝚕𝚊𝚢𝚘𝚞𝚝𝚜 𝚒𝚗 𝚝𝚑𝚎 𝚠𝚊𝚢 𝚢𝚘𝚞 𝚝𝚑𝚘𝚞𝚐𝚑𝚝 𝚒𝚝 𝚠𝚊𝚜.

𝕀'𝕞 𝕦𝕤𝕚𝕟𝕘 𝕦𝕜𝕖𝕝𝕖𝕝𝕖 𝕥𝕠 𝕔𝕣𝕖𝕒𝕥𝕖 𝕕𝕚𝕗𝕗𝕖𝕣𝕖𝕟𝕥 𝕜𝕚𝕟𝕕𝕤 𝕠𝕗 𝕝𝕒𝕪𝕠𝕦𝕥𝕤 𝕨𝕚𝕥𝕙 𝕕𝕚𝕗𝕗𝕖𝕣𝕖𝕟𝕥 𝕒𝕝𝕡𝕙𝕒𝕓𝕖𝕥 𝕤𝕥𝕪𝕝𝕖𝕤 𝕒𝕤 𝕒 𝕗𝕒𝕟𝕔𝕪 𝕨𝕒𝕪 𝕥𝕠 𝕔𝕙𝕒𝕥 𝕨𝕚𝕥𝕙 𝕞𝕪 𝕗𝕣𝕚𝕖𝕟𝕕𝕤.

𝕀𝕋 𝕊𝕆𝕌ℕ𝔻𝕊 ℝ𝕀𝔻𝕀ℂ𝕌𝕃𝕆𝕌𝕊, ℝ𝕀𝔾ℍ𝕋?^^

𝙰𝚗𝚢𝚠𝚊𝚢, 𝚢𝚘𝚞𝚛 𝚊𝚍𝚟𝚒𝚌𝚎 𝚝𝚘 𝚌𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚝𝚎 𝚘𝚗𝚎 𝚖𝚘𝚛𝚎 𝚜𝚎𝚙𝚊𝚛𝚊𝚝𝚎 𝚒𝚗𝚙𝚞𝚝 𝚜𝚘𝚞𝚗𝚍𝚜 𝚏𝚊𝚒𝚛 𝚎𝚗𝚘𝚞𝚐𝚑 𝚝𝚘 𝚖𝚎, 𝚒𝚝'𝚜 𝚊𝚋𝚜𝚘𝚕𝚞𝚝𝚎𝚕𝚢 𝚊 𝚐𝚘𝚘𝚍 𝚜𝚘𝚕𝚞𝚝𝚒𝚘𝚗 𝚏𝚘𝚛 𝚖𝚢 𝚌𝚊𝚜𝚎. But due to the reason: 𝙸'𝚟𝚎 𝚊𝚕𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚍𝚢 𝚋𝚎𝚎𝚗 𝚞𝚜𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚜𝚘 𝚖𝚊𝚗𝚢 𝚍𝚒𝚏𝚏𝚎𝚛𝚎𝚗𝚝 𝚕𝚊𝚗𝚐𝚞𝚊𝚐𝚎 𝚒𝚗𝚙𝚞𝚝𝚜 ( 𝚌𝚕𝚘𝚜𝚎 𝚝𝚘 10𝚜 )

𝚂𝚘 𝙸 𝚓𝚞𝚜𝚝 𝚠𝚊𝚗𝚝𝚎𝚍 𝚝𝚘 𝚏𝚒𝚗𝚍 𝚊 𝚜𝚘𝚕𝚞𝚝𝚒𝚘𝚗 𝚝𝚘 𝚙𝚊𝚌𝚔 𝚊𝚜 𝚖𝚘𝚛𝚎 𝚊𝚜 𝚙𝚘𝚜𝚜𝚒𝚋𝚕𝚎 𝚍𝚒𝚏𝚏𝚎𝚛𝚎𝚗𝚝 𝚕𝚊𝚢𝚘𝚞𝚝𝚜 𝚠𝚒𝚝𝚑 𝚍𝚒𝚏𝚏𝚎𝚛𝚎𝚗𝚝 𝚜𝚝𝚢𝚕𝚎𝚜 𝚒𝚗𝚝𝚘 𝚘𝚗𝚎 𝚒𝚗𝚙𝚞𝚝 𝚝𝚘 𝚘𝚙𝚎𝚛𝚊𝚝𝚎 𝚒𝚝 𝚎𝚊𝚜𝚒𝚕𝚢 ( 𝙸 𝚝𝚑𝚒𝚗𝚔 𝙸 𝚙𝚛𝚎𝚏𝚎𝚛 𝚝𝚑𝚎 𝚠𝚊𝚢 𝙸 𝚊𝚜𝚜𝚘𝚌𝚒𝚊𝚝𝚎 𝚝𝚑𝚎 𝚕𝚊𝚢𝚘𝚞𝚝𝚜 𝚠𝚒𝚝𝚑 𝚜𝚙𝚎𝚌𝚒𝚏𝚒𝚌 𝚖𝚘𝚍𝚒𝚏𝚒𝚎𝚛 𝚔𝚎𝚢𝚜 𝚛𝚊𝚝𝚑𝚎𝚛 𝚝𝚑𝚊𝚗 𝚜𝚎𝚝𝚝𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚘𝚗𝚎 𝚖𝚘𝚛𝚎 𝚒𝚗𝚙𝚞𝚝 𝚠𝚒𝚝𝚑 𝚝𝚑𝚎 𝚜𝚊𝚖𝚎 𝚙𝚊𝚝𝚝𝚎𝚛𝚗 𝚘𝚏 𝚖𝚘𝚍𝚒𝚏𝚒𝚎𝚛 𝚌𝚘𝚖𝚋𝚒𝚗𝚊𝚝𝚒𝚘𝚗𝚜 )

[Gé van Gasteren]

Haha, you’re right, I hadn’t thought of such use!

Then just one last thing that comes to mind:

MacOS has a feature called "sticky keys", which is under "Accessibility" in the System Preferences.

It’s designed for people who have difficulty holding down one (modifier) key while typing another key, but for your purpose it might come in handy, too:

Image this: You press the Option key and it sticks, i.e. all subsequent keystrokes (say, a b c) are suddenly Option-keystrokes (å∫ç on the standard US keyboard layout).

With sticky keys turned on, the Shift key works like CapsLock, but because the two can have separate keysets associated with them, they are still really separate modifier keys in that regard.

So in this way, you could have easy access to quite a number of alphabets:

• all modifier keys Up

• Shift down

• Option down

• CapsLock down

• Shift+Option down

• Shift+CapsLock down

• Option+CapsLock down

• Shift+Option+CapsLock down

In principle, you could even throw in the Control key as a modifier key and double the number of available keysets, but that doesn't work well in all applications.

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[101001101]

yeah, "stick keys" feature has been really useful for me to type those special alphabets.

here are the combinations already occupied by my fancy alphabet:

𝟙.𝖆𝖑𝖑 𝖒𝖔𝖉𝖎𝖋𝖎𝖊𝖗 𝖐𝖊𝖞𝖘 𝖚𝖕

𝟚.𝕾𝕳𝕴𝕱𝕿 𝕯𝕺𝖂𝕹

𝟛.𝕠𝕡𝕥𝕚𝕠𝕟 𝕕𝕠𝕨𝕟

𝟜.𝕊ℍ𝕀𝔽𝕋+𝕆ℙ𝕋𝕀𝕆ℕ 𝔻𝕆𝕎ℕ

𝟝.𝚌𝚊𝚙𝚜𝚕𝚘𝚌𝚔 𝚍𝚘𝚠𝚗

𝟞.𝚂𝙷𝙸𝙵𝚃+𝙲𝙰𝙿𝚂𝙻𝙾𝙲𝙺 𝙳𝙾𝚆𝙽

𝟟.ᵒᵖᵗⁱᵒⁿ+ᶜᵃᵖˢᴸᵒᶜᵏ ᵈᵒʷⁿ

𝟠.ˢᴴᴵᶠᵀ+ᴼᴾᵀᴵᴼᴺ+ᶜᴬᴾˢᴸᴼᶜᴷ ᴰᴼᵂᴺ

𝟡.𝓬𝓸𝓷𝓽𝓻𝓸𝓵+𝓸𝓹𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷+𝓬𝓪𝓹𝓼𝓵𝓸𝓬𝓴 𝓭𝓸𝔀𝓷

𝟙𝟘.𝓢𝓗𝓘𝓕𝓣+𝓒𝓞𝓝𝓣𝓡𝓞𝓛+𝓞𝓟𝓣𝓘𝓞𝓝+𝓒𝓐𝓟𝓢𝓛𝓞𝓒𝓚 𝓓𝓞𝓦𝓝

𝟙𝟙. shift+control+option occupied by my another secret cryptic alphabet^^ 

That's all combinations that I can use smoothly ( And you are absolutely right about control key, it has some trouble because many applications use it as a shortcut key feature. I only figured it out 3 combinations including it could be used well, other cases cause conflicts with shortcut key feature. Command key is the worst, I can't find out even 1 useful. )

I think you already understood why I so much wanted to separate left and right option keys, that could give me 7 more combinations to set up my other layouts. 𝚑𝚊𝚑𝚊 𝚜𝚘𝚞𝚗𝚍𝚜 𝚕𝚒𝚔𝚎 𝚝𝚘𝚘 𝚐𝚛𝚎𝚎𝚍𝚢, 𝚛𝚒𝚐𝚑𝚝? :𝙿

𝚙𝚜: 𝚝𝚋𝚑, 𝚒 𝚜𝚝𝚒𝚕𝚕 𝚑𝚊𝚟𝚎𝚗'𝚝 𝚐𝚒𝚟𝚎𝚗 𝚔𝚊𝚛𝚊𝚋𝚒𝚗𝚎𝚛-𝚎𝚕𝚎𝚖𝚎𝚗𝚝 𝚊𝚙𝚙 𝚊 𝚝𝚛𝚢, 𝚜𝚝𝚒𝚕𝚕 𝚕𝚘𝚘𝚔𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚏𝚘𝚛 𝚊 𝚜𝚘𝚕𝚞𝚝𝚒𝚘𝚗 𝚠𝚒𝚝𝚑𝚘𝚞𝚝 𝚒𝚗𝚜𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚕𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚖𝚘𝚛𝚎 𝚗𝚎𝚠 𝚊𝚙𝚙. 𝚠𝚒𝚜𝚑 𝚖𝚎 𝚐𝚘𝚘𝚍 𝚕𝚞𝚌𝚔 𝚋𝚛𝚘 ~^^~

[Gé van Gasteren]

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 4:21 AM 101001101 <galaxyz...@gmail.com> wrote:

yeah, "stick keys" feature has been really useful for me to type those special alphabets.

here are the combinations already occupied by my fancy alphabet:

𝟙.𝖆𝖑𝖑 𝖒𝖔𝖉𝖎𝖋𝖎𝖊𝖗 𝖐𝖊𝖞𝖘 𝖚𝖕

𝟚.𝕾𝕳𝕴𝕱𝕿 𝕯𝕺𝖂𝕹

𝟛.𝕠𝕡𝕥𝕚𝕠𝕟 𝕕𝕠𝕨𝕟

𝟜.𝕊ℍ𝕀𝔽𝕋+𝕆ℙ𝕋𝕀𝕆ℕ 𝔻𝕆𝕎ℕ

𝟝.𝚌𝚊𝚙𝚜𝚕𝚘𝚌𝚔 𝚍𝚘𝚠𝚗

𝟞.𝚂𝙷𝙸𝙵𝚃+𝙲𝙰𝙿𝚂𝙻𝙾𝙲𝙺 𝙳𝙾𝚆𝙽

𝟟.ᵒᵖᵗⁱᵒⁿ+ᶜᵃᵖˢᴸᵒᶜᵏ ᵈᵒʷⁿ

𝟠.ˢᴴᴵᶠᵀ+ᴼᴾᵀᴵᴼᴺ+ᶜᴬᴾˢᴸᴼᶜᴷ ᴰᴼᵂᴺ

𝟡.𝓬𝓸𝓷𝓽𝓻𝓸𝓵+𝓸𝓹𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷+𝓬𝓪𝓹𝓼𝓵𝓸𝓬𝓴 𝓭𝓸𝔀𝓷

𝟙𝟘.𝓢𝓗𝓘𝓕𝓣+𝓒𝓞𝓝𝓣𝓡𝓞𝓛+𝓞𝓟𝓣𝓘𝓞𝓝+𝓒𝓐𝓟𝓢𝓛𝓞𝓒𝓚 𝓓𝓞𝓦𝓝

𝟙𝟙. shift+control+option occupied by my another secret cryptic alphabet^^ 

All right! :-D

Then maybe you’ll find these websites useful:

https://www.cool-letters.com/

https://www.fancytextconverter.com/

 

[101001101]

𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖊𝖊𝖊𝖊

𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓷𝓴 𝔂𝓸𝓾!