list of languages

[Sorin Paliga]

John

I am beginning to play more seriously with UKELELE 3.x 

Is it possible to change the list of languages in alphabetical order? It took some time until I got to Romanian. They seem to be grouped in a strange manner, European languages alternating with all other languages.

The lirtst list, as in attachment.

Sorin Paliga

sorin....@lls.unibuc.ro
sorin_...@icloud.com
sorin....@gmail.com

http://www.unibuc.ro/prof/paliga_v_s/
+40 721 066 182

[Geke]

Dear Sorin,

I’m sitting here at my computer, smiling at your professor’s mind :)
Type the letters "ro" into the search box to find Romanian right away...
(The list in your picture is sorted by language code; maybe clicking on the Language column heading will sort by the language’s name?)

Greetings

[Sorin Paliga]

Oh, so simple? Is there a Find window? 

Anyway, I have just updated the bundle for Romanian, the basic set (3 key layouts). Now am going to update the other ones. I still do not know how to solve issues like Old Church Slavonic, Glagolitic and Etruscan, but will see. 

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[Geke]

Yes, there are 4 find windows, one just above your red arrow in the picture!

As a good student, I’ve looked up the codes you might be able to use in the various sections of this dialog box:

Old Church Slavonic: cu / chu / chur1257 / 53-AAA-a (language family: Slavic, South)

Glagolitic: language codes are the same as for OCS, but script code: Glag, 225

Etruscan: ett / etru1241 (language family: Tyrsenian)

[Sorin Paliga]

Many thanks, let me see how I solve this. 

[Sorin Paliga]

So,  may I put OCS and Glago under the same cover? the same bundle, I mean? This would be logical, OCS with OCS Cyrillic and OCS Glagolitic. 

On 15 Sep 2015, at 17:14, Geke <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Geke]

I wouldn’t know; I don’t even have this thing in my old OS!

But if I may make a guess, I think there’s no rule or law which layouts may or may not be combined in a bundle.
The main advantage of a bundle containing several layouts – as far as I can see – seems that (de)installation of related layouts is simpler.

Off-topic: Could you give me a hint who or what Cattus Thraex is, or why you chose that name? I’ve been wondering for some time now...

Op dinsdag 15 september 2015 20:06:24 UTC+2 schreef Cattus Thraex:

[Sorin Paliga]

So: 

On 15 Sep 2015, at 22:28, Geke <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wouldn’t know; I don’t even have this thing in my old OS!

But if I may make a guess, I think there’s no rule or law which layouts may or may not be combined in a bundle.
The main advantage of a bundle containing several layouts – as far as I can see – seems that (de)installation of related layouts is simpler.

Obviously yes, for example the Romanian bundle contains 3 key layouts, the basic ones. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ijvmlhny2t5ncjg/Romanian.bundle.zip?dl=0

Off-topic: Could you give me a hint who or what Cattus Thraex is, or why you chose that name? I’ve been wondering for some time now…

Lit. it means ‘The Thracian (tom)cat’. I have a peculiar bias for analysing the substratum, i.e. Thracian, heritage of Romanian, some studies are a free download from my webpages and from academia.edu:

https://unibuc.academia.edu/SPaliga

While (very) young, I even had a visit card with this name! It was a little bit snobbish, so I abandoned it soon. I use this name in various sites, usually those dealing with IT issues. Well, of course, I like cats, my daughter and my wife too. We have a large courtyard in the country, and there are some 15 cats and 2 shepherd dogs.

I will have a look at the OCS-Glago issue these days. The bundle has also the advantage that it instructs the system to automatically activate spelling and hyphenation when a given key layout is chosen, if it has a language assigned to it. 

Best

Op dinsdag 15 september 2015 20:06:24 UTC+2 schreef Cattus Thraex:

So,  may I put OCS and Glago under the same cover? the same bundle, I mean? This would be logical, OCS with OCS Cyrillic and OCS Glagolitic. 

[Geke]

Thank you for that explanation, purrrfect :)

Re.

The bundle has also the advantage that it instructs the system to automatically activate spelling and hyphenation when a given key layout is chosen, if it has a language assigned to it. 

That’s good integration! Then it’ll be important to put something in the Script field for the Glagolitic layout, otherwise wrong spelling dictionaries will be loaded by the System. The same may be true to some extent for language variants.

[Sorin Paliga]

Unfortunately, as I can see, if sys settings are ‘automatic by language’, the speller has the tendency to anglify and correct inappropriately from time to time, even if it works in general. This makes me choose language manually, as the automatic switch of the speller cannot be trusted in all the cases. 

So said, the only advantage of a bundle is that it behaves like a folder, containing both the keylayouts and the icons, which is, of course, more comfortable. 

[Geke]

Hi Sorin,

Again, this is out of my reach to test, but my feeling is that associating a language with a keyboard layout is just the ticket to fix the behavior you describe.

As far as I know, TextEdit (and maybe other programs) try to detect the language you are typing in from the actual text you type. Obviously, this doesn’t succeed always, especially if your text contains words from several languages.

But now, with this language and script info connected with the current keyboard layout, a program has a much better chance of choosing the right spelling dictionary.

I expect all System keyboard layouts to include the language and script info inside keyboard layouts nowadays, and TextEdit to read that info, so it should work better in the newer OSes, no?
Or maybe you have to change that System Preferences setting from "automatic by language" to "by keyboard layout"?

Op woensdag 16 september 2015 09:59:57 UTC+2 schreef Cattus Thraex:

[Sorin Paliga]

It seems the only reliable solution is to manually choose the language for spelling, ’automatic by language’ does not work always, do not understand why, seemingly when similar spelling is common to both/more language(s). It would be very comfortable for the system to switch spelling to the language associated to the keylayout, but it does not work. Spelling abruptly switched to English US even if the keylayout was for Romanian and even if it had been working until that moment. 

[Geke]

Which other options are available besides that "Automatic by language"?

Op woensdag 16 september 2015 16:44:52 UTC+2 schreef Cattus Thraex:

[Sorin Paliga]

To choose a default language then change them manually. I created my shortcut, command-G, replacing another one. This is available in any app under Edit/Spelling and Grammar/Show Spelling and Grammar. 

[Geke]

OK, then I guess an option like "Connect with current keyboard layout" is still in the works. But there may be other settings.

I think this is a question for John, finally:
How is the language and script info inside keyboard layouts (to be) used?

Op woensdag 16 september 2015 17:01:35 UTC+2 schreef Cattus Thraex:

[Sorin Paliga]

OK, then I guess an option like "Connect with current keyboard layout" is still in the works.

I also thought the same many years ago, and thus tested with the system keylayouts, those created by Apple. When these were used, ‘automatic by language’ worked in the described way; if custom, did not work at all. So it seems El Capitán does not bring anything new here, the bahaviour is the same as before.

[…]

How is the language and script info inside keyboard layouts (to be) used?

This would be a solution, even if I use the same keylayout for more languages, as long as I have to manually switch spelling. For French, for example, I also use my keylayout, I cannot adapt to the French AZERTY mapping, which is so eerie to me.

Op woensdag 16 september 2015 17:01:35 UTC+2 schreef Cattus Thraex:

To choose a default language then change them manually. I created my shortcut, command-G, replacing another one. This is available in any app under Edit/Spelling and Grammar/Show Spelling and Grammar. 

[John Brownie]

On 17/09/2015 1:10, Geke wrote:
> I think this is a question for John, finally:
> How is the language and script info inside keyboard layouts (to be) used?

The reason I even heard of this was the "press and hold" functionality,
and that's what I was thinking about. I don't know Apple's other plans
for using that information. I rarely use another language that has any
support from Apple, and what I do use has doesn't require another
keyboard layout, so don't have much personal experience of it.

John
--
John Brownie, john_b...@sil.org or j.br...@sil.org.pg
Summer Institute of Linguistics | Mussau-Emira language, Mussau Is.
Ukarumpa, Eastern Highlands Province | New Ireland Province
Papua New Guinea | Papua New Guinea

[Geke]

Aha, I hadn’t thought of that.
So the language (& script?) info determines which accented and other special characters appear on "press and  hold".

Still, Sorin’s statement about checking the spelling is interesting, even though it may have nothing to do with these settings: "When system layouts were used, ‘automatic by language’ worked in the described way; if custom layouts, did not work at all."

Apple’s wondrous ways...

[Sorin Paliga]

It seems so… I have not read any theory on this, Apple does not seem to offer one (why?) or I do not know where to look for it. See the question of Luciano Couto. I am going to create a fr-fr wqerty keylayout using the language assignment, am also curious whether this works.