creating modifier combinations with the control Key

[damla]

Hello,

Does anyone know how to create a modifier combination like Control-
Shift, or Control-Option (which would be different from the usual
Control modifier) ?
I absolutely need these combinations. I have been using them since OS9
with a keyboard configuration as a resource (edited with the old
ResEdit !). I never had any conflict with system control Key
combinations. So I need to create these within Ukelele.Thanks,
Alain

[Geke]

> Does anyone know how to create a modifier combination like Control-
> Shift, or Control-Option (which would be different from the usual
> Control modifier) ?

This is described on page 26 of the manual. You’ll have to create new
separate "states" for the different modifier combinations.

> I have been using them since OS9
> with a keyboard configuration as a resource (edited with the old
> ResEdit !). I never had any conflict with system control Key
> combinations.

Unfortunately, in OS X you can’t use Control by itself anymore.
I mean, you can, but it’s asking for problems, as described in the
manual.

So you’d probably want (some of) these separate states, kind of in
order of preference:
- Control-Option
- Control-Option-Command
- Shift-Control-Option
- Shift-Control-Option-Comman
- CapsLock + Control-Option
- CapsLock + Control-Option-Command
- CapsLock + Shift-Control-Option
- CapsLock + Shift-Control-Option-Command (!)

[John Brownie]

As has been said, control key combinations are a pain in Mac OS X, but
can be done, by defining a new set of modifiers.

That said, if you've got a working resource-based keyboard layout, you
can convert that to an XML keyboard layout. The simplest way is to open
Ukelele, make your resource-based keyboard layout the current input
source, and then choose New From Current Input Source. That will create
a new keyboard layout that you can edit in Ukelele and save wherever you
want.

If the old keyboard layout doesn't work on your system, then it's
possible to do it with the command line, using one of the tools that is
bundled with Ukelele. If you need to go down this route, ask, as it's a
little complicated to explain.

John
--
John Brownie, john_b...@sil.org or j.br...@sil.org.pg
Summer Institute of Linguistics | Mussau-Emira language, Mussau Is.
Ukarumpa, Eastern Highlands Province | New Ireland Province
Papua New Guinea | Papua New Guinea

[damla]

Hello John,

Thank you for your help. Unfortunately, my resource based layout has
stopped working with Leopard (or Snow Leopard, I just tested it), so
this is not a solution, unless you help me with the command line
tools.

The problem I have been having with Ukelele is that when I create the
various modifiers Control, Control-Shift, Control-Option and Control-
Shift-Option, every time I create a new key in one of them, it changes
the same key in at least one of the others. I have tried several times
and have the same problem. I could understand this behavior if I had
not created ALL of the modifier combinations (because things would
then be duplicated in some way in the not created ones), but it seems
to happen even when they are all created.

Alain

On Dec 17, 2:17 am, John Brownie <john_brow...@sil.org> wrote:
> On Wed Dec 15 2010 00:11:46 GMT+1000 (PGT) damla wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know how to create a modifier combination like Control-
> > Shift, or Control-Option (which would be different from the usual
> > Control modifier) ?
> > I absolutely need these combinations. I have been using them since OS9
> > with a keyboard configuration as a resource (edited with the old
> > ResEdit !). I never had any conflict with system control Key
> > combinations. So I need to create these within Ukelele.Thanks,
>
> As has been said, control key combinations are a pain in Mac OS X, but
> can be done, by defining a new set of modifiers.
>
> That said, if you've got a working resource-based keyboard layout, you
> can convert that to an XML keyboard layout. The simplest way is to open
> Ukelele, make your resource-based keyboard layout the current input
> source, and then choose New From Current Input Source. That will create
> a new keyboard layout that you can edit in Ukelele and save wherever you
> want.
>
> If the old keyboard layout doesn't work on your system, then it's
> possible to do it with the command line, using one of the tools that is
> bundled with Ukelele. If you need to go down this route, ask, as it's a
> little complicated to explain.
>
> John
> --

> John Brownie, john_brow...@sil.org or j.brow...@sil.org.pg

[Sorin Paliga]

Alain

Why do you insist in using ctrl key as modifier key when working with keylayouts? What is the clue? (sorry, perhaps you explained it, but I do not remember). In my view, you uselessly complicate your life. This would make sense if you are very happy after that hard work.
Best

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>

[damla]

Hello, this is to answer the question of Sorin.

Back in the antiquity of the Mac (my first Mac was a Mac 128!), I
started with a querty keyboard. But as I am French, I had to deal with
accented letters, then with dead keys. Two years or so later, my
second Mac had a new keyboard with a control key. Back then, I used
successive utilities (including Quickeys) to create faster
combinations for the usual accented letters in French. That is when I
used Control for acute accent, Control-Shift for grave accent and
Control-Option for circumflex accent. Later on, I modified the
keyboard layout file with ResEdit and did not need Quickeys for that
purpose anymore. I never, never had any conflict due to these choices.
And now, more than 20 years laters, I am very much used to this set
up.
Since OS X, I have used my Resource layout until it stopped working.
At present, I use Keyboard Maestro to generate these accented letters,
but I would much rather have a solution with a keyboard layout file
which works under Snow Leopard, because Keyboard Maestro very often
introduces delays so that I have to wait after each accented letter
before going on typing (not that I am a speed typist!)

At my age, I am not ready to change combinations I have been using for
20 years or more.

So, now you know the full disclosure!

Alain

[Sorin Paliga]

Alain

This sound reasonable, just that it seems to me you complicated your life. As a keyalyout creator for very complicated instances, like for the use of linguists and dialectologists, who virtually need all possible combinations, I think there are simple ways to achieve your goal, especially when such a simple task like French is in view! Imagine languages like Polish, Czech or Lithuanian, which have a lot more diacriticals. In order to achieve your goal, one modifier key is indeed sufficient.

The only argument for you, is that you have got accustomed to a certain key combination, and you want to keep it. Habitus secunda natura. I for one would try to abruptly switch to another simple way by using one key for such a purpose, e.g. like using a keylayout of the ‘Programmers’ family: option / alt key + another key = a new char, like opt+a = á, opt-shift-a = à. As these are required only for small letters, not for capital letters, I think you can find such a simple way out.

You may also wish to have these chars at level zero, and push less frequent chars at superior levels, as you will rarely use them. But, of course, these are only suggestions. You know better what you need.

At

http://www.unibuc.ro/ro/cd_sorpaliga_ro [the English page has been under re-construction these days, may not work]

you may find some inspiring solutions.

Good luck

Sorin Paliga

sorin....@gmail.com

sorin....@seznam.cz

kabinetcz....@gmail.com

mobil 0761 681 055

Sorin Paliga

Universitatea din București

University of Bucharest

Facultatea de limbi străine

Catedra de Limbi slave

Faculty of Foreign Languages

Department of Slavic Languages

http://www.unibuc.ro/ro/cd_sorpaliga_ro

http://www.unibuc.ro/en/cd_sorpaliga_en

[damla]

Dear Sorin,

Thank you for your suggestions, but as you said, it has become a
second nature for me. My original first choice was Control-e for é
because option-e was used as a dead acute accent on the Qwerty
keyboard layout on the original Mac. Had it been easy to replace at
the time by option-', then it would have been easy to use option-e....
Now, I use Keyboard Maestro which works pretty well, but often
exhibits a time lag so that my next letter may show in between the
modifier dead key KM generates and the following key, therefore
messing up my typing (which is not so good already). I would expect a
Keyboard configuration file not to have such problems (letters appear
then always in the order they have been entered).

In other words, I need Control, Control-Option, Control-Shift and
Control-Shift-Option modifiers which are all different.

Any help?

Alain

On Dec 19, 9:26 am, Sorin Paliga <sorin.pal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alain
>

> This sound reasonable, just that it seems to me you complicated your life. As a keyalyout creator for very complicated instances, like for the use of linguists and dialectologists, who virtually need all possible combinations, I think there are simple ways to achieve your goal, especially when such a simple task like French is in view! Imagine languages like Polish, Czech or Lithuanian, which have a lot more diacriticals. In order to achieve your goal, one modifier key is indeed sufficient.
> The only argument for you, is that you have got accustomed to a certain key combination, and you want to keep it. Habitus secunda natura. I for one would try to abruptly switch to another simple way by using one key for such a purpose, e.g. like using a keylayout of the ‘Programmers’ family: option / alt key + another key = a new char, like opt+a = á, opt-shift-a = à. As these are required only for small letters, not for capital letters, I think you can find such a simple way out.
> You may also wish to have these chars at level zero, and push less frequent chars at superior levels, as you will rarely use them. But, of course, these are only suggestions. You know better what you need.

> Athttp://www.unibuc.ro/ro/cd_sorpaliga_ro[the English page has been under re-construction these days, may not work]

> sorin.pal...@gmail.com
> sorin.pal...@seznam.cz
> kabinetcz.buk.pal...@gmail.com

[Sorin Paliga]

If this is the whole problem, you may have option-e for é, and option-shift-e for è; option-a for â and, of course, you may invent something simple for ê, e.g. option-d or option-w etc. something around letter e.

[John Brownie]

On Sat Dec 18 2010 20:22:38 GMT+1000 (PGT) damla wrote:

> Thank you for your help. Unfortunately, my resource based layout has
> stopped working with Leopard (or Snow Leopard, I just tested it), so
> this is not a solution, unless you help me with the command line
> tools.

OK, that's a possibility, but it might be possible to do it with
Ukelele, as I describe below.

> The problem I have been having with Ukelele is that when I create the
> various modifiers Control, Control-Shift, Control-Option and Control-
> Shift-Option, every time I create a new key in one of them, it changes
> the same key in at least one of the others. I have tried several times
> and have the same problem. I could understand this behavior if I had
> not created ALL of the modifier combinations (because things would
> then be duplicated in some way in the not created ones), but it seems
> to happen even when they are all created.

It looks as though what is happening is that the new key maps are linked
to the old ones. There are a number of ways this can happen, but you
don't need to know about that.

One way to fix this is that, when you create a new modifier combination,
choose "Copy of an existing key map" and check the "Unlinked" check box.
That will give you an independent set there, though you would have to
then change any existing outputs to what you want.

A second is to create the new modifier combination, and then explicitly
unlink it with the "Unlink Modifier Set" command, which unlinks all keys
with that modifier combination.

It's a puzzling thing when it happens, but it's not that hard to get
around when you know what has caused the strange behaviour.

Hope that helps!

John
--
John Brownie, john_b...@sil.org or j.br...@sil.org.pg

[damla]

Hello John.

Indeed, it seems you were correct. I recreated the set Control-Option,
Control-Shift and Control-Option-Shift and made sure they appeared
with different numbers, and now almost everything works (I tried first
to use the Unlink Modifier set... command, but got nothing).
ow, I still have a small problem. It seems that with Control-Option,
the characters I entered for the 4th row of the keyboard (such as c,
v,n) do appear in Ukelele but do not appear subsequently in the
Keyboard Viewer window and do not work. The corresponding combination
with the keys for e, u, i, or a work well. This is a strange behavior,
which, like a lot of things pertaining to Keyboard layouts, I do not
understand. But perhaps you can. These modified keys are not very
important for me, so I can do without them, but I wondered if there
was something not normal there.

By the way, following the instructions of the Ukelele manual, I had
tried to use the Keybinding Editor and change the keybindings of my
account, but that would not work at all.

Thanks for your help.

Alain

> John Brownie, john_brow...@sil.org or j.brow...@sil.org.pg