Re: [ukelele-users] Modifier keys

[Sorin Paliga]

I will answer q. #2 and 3, as have not used function #1 for a long time, and have forgotten how this works.

2. Yes, you may change the modifiers but, if you start from an existing keylayout, mainly of one in the system, this would not be advisable. Essentially, keylayouts need option (alt) key, command and ctrl key must keep their basic function.

3. UKELELE creates a .keylayout file and, for good order, you may (but must not) add an .icns file associated to it, then put the 2 files in /Library/Keyboard Layouts (also at the user level, to be used by that user only). Log out and relog in, then activate it in sys prefs/language and text (was international)/input menu. If you do not add the .icns file, you will see a generic icon in the upper right menu bar.

This is valid for Mac OS X 10.2 through 10.8. If you wish to create an  installer, this may not work with older OSs, do not know that, cannot test with older systems. 

On 31.07.2012, at 23:02, David Harper-Jones <wdh...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’m probably the only person on this forum who doesn’t own a Mac :-) . But since my aim is to make available Central Asian keyboards for Win, Mac & Linux, I want to work with Ukelele … and … I’ve just managed to borrow a Mac for a few weeks.

I have a couple of questions.

• On the Keyboard menu, I’m a bit confused by Unlink Key … and Unlink Modifier Set … . The manual’s description of the latter implied that keys can be unlinked for a single modifier set – they don’t have to be unlinked for all. But the former command does not give you a choice of which modifier set to unlink. Also, is there a way to tell after the event whether a key has been unlinked?
  
• Can you change the Modifiers for a layout you’ve already designed?
  

• I’ve followed some of the previous discussions, an I’d like to know whether I can package my keyboard in one way and it be easy for users of all recent OS X versions to install, or do I have to package it differently – or maybe provide different instructions – for Mountain Lion users?

--

Regards, David
m: +992 918 665509
h: +992 37 233-6715
 UK prefix to call the above at 4·1p/min: 0844 428 2929
(From UK, replace "+" with "00". Prefix info correct at 22 Dec 2011.
 For up-to-date prefixes: msecallchecker.com .)
33 Vozeh St, Dushanbe, 734033 Tajikistan
TZ: UTC+5
s: rotw1997
(s = Skype ID)

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[John Brownie]

David Harper-Jones wrote:

• On the Keyboard menu, I’m a bit confused by Unlink Key … and Unlink Modifier Set … . The manual’s description of the latter implied that keys can be unlinked for a single modifier set – they don’t have to be unlinked for all. But the former command does not give you a choice of which modifier set to unlink. Also, is there a way to tell after the event whether a key has been unlinked?
  

I'm afraid I'm confused by your question. Unlink Key will unlink exactly one key's output with exactly one modifier combination. You specify the key and modifiers by pressing it after the dialog is dismissed. Unlink Modifier Set looks much the same when you do it, as you have to type a key, but it unlinks every key with the same modifiers. So the difference is between one key or all keys, while both operate with exactly one modifier set/combination. Is that clear yet?

The way to tell whether a key has been unlinked is to change its output and see whether the previously linked modifier combination changes the same key. For example, if shift and caps lock were linked (as is often the case), change the output for the key with shift and see that the output for the key with caps lock is unchanged. If it changed, the unlinking has not happened.

• Can you change the Modifiers for a layout you’ve already designed?
  

I'm again not sure what you mean. If you want to change the modifier combinations in the drawer, you can certainly do that. But be aware that deleting a modifier set will delete all the output associated with that modifier set. But ask again if I'm not answering the question.

• I’ve followed some of the previous discussions, an I’d like to know whether I can package my keyboard in one way and it be easy for users of all recent OS X versions to install, or do I have to package it differently – or maybe provide different instructions – for Mountain Lion users?
  

If you want to create a version for all current versions of OS X from 10.2 to 10.8, you can follow Sorin's advice. Or you can create a package (not an installer package, but a keyboard layout package) with the preference set to generate pre-10.5 packages. The additional features in Ukelele 2.2.x to support press and hold will have no effect on older systems, either good or bad.

Hope that is of some help.

John
--
John Brownie, john_b...@sil.org or j.br...@sil.org.pg
Summer Institute of Linguistics      | Mussau-Emira language, Mussau Is.
Ukarumpa, Eastern Highlands Province | New Ireland Province
Papua New Guinea                     | Papua New Guinea

[David Harper-Jones]

Sorry my questions were confusing � I was confused by some of the functionality, so I guess I wasn�t able to express my questions well. All of what you wrote is of some help � you�re scratching where I�m itching � thanks! At a practical level, I think I�ve got my keyboard to do what I want, but I�d still like to understand things more fully in order to understand all the possibilities with Ukelele.

The whole modifier thing is much more complicated than what I�m used to in MSKLC or Keyman. Maybe it�s just me, but I think this area could be explained more fully in the manual.

I�ll ask what I still don�t understand below, but, because of the difficulty I was having expressing things, I�m also wondering whether you would have time to spend a few minutes with audio-Skype. Are you brownie_png on Skype? Sounds like it should be you :-) ! Can you approve me as a contact?

On 2012-08-01 02:45, John Brownie wrote:

� Unlink Key will unlink exactly one key's output with exactly one modifier combination. � For example, if shift and caps lock were linked (as is often the case) �

This is part of my confusion, maybe: for modifiers to be linked, that means you�re linking at least two combinations � but you say it works �with exactly one � combination�. Maybe I�m being too pedantic, but does this mean that when the dialog box is dismissed, the combination that you click, and any combinations linked to it, are unlinked from one another?

And � just out of interest � if you you took an existing keylayout file, unlinked Shift and CapsLock for a key, but then manually set the same output anyway, would that result in different XML in the keylayout file?

• Can you change the Modifiers for a layout you�ve already designed?
  

I'm again not sure what you mean.

Well, I opened a keylayout that I designed a while ago, and then changed the modifiers list so that Shift-Down, CapsLock-up and Shift-Down, CapsLock-down were separate sets. But I was still unable to change the outputs separately for these modifiers. But when I did the same thing for a new keylayout, it worked as I wanted. Which made me think that you maybe can�t change the modifiers after you�ve started selecting outputs for the keys.

--

Regards, David

m: +992 918 665509
h: +992 37 233-6715

�UK prefix to call the above at 4�1p/min: 0844 428 2929

(From UK, replace "+" with "00". Prefix info correct at 22 Dec 2011.

�For up-to-date prefixes: msecallchecker.com .)

[David Harper-Jones]

On 2012-08-01 01:32, Sorin Paliga wrote:

3. UKELELE creates a .keylayout file and, for good order, you may (but must not) add an .icns file associated to it, then put the 2 files in /Library/Keyboard Layouts (also at the user level, to be used by that user only)

Is there any way to install a keyboard for all users?

Regards, David

[Sorin Paliga]

Of course, in /Library/Keyboard Layouts, the / level, not at the users level. This is, in fact, the recommended location, there is no sense to put such small files for each user.

Mine looks like this ( I attach a screenshot in the mail.app, I hope it will be displayed). some of these are created by me, some by others. some are currently used, e.g. Bohemica... (for Czech), Cyrillic Linguist, Romanian MacClub, US Academic etc.

Free download from my web pages at the Univ. of Bucharest, see below.

Sorin Paliga

http://www.unibuc.ro/prof/paliga_v_s/ [română]

http://www.unibuc.ro/e/prof/paliga_v_s/ [English]

[Tom Gewecke]

Everything in Library/ is for all users.  Everything in Home/Library/ is for that one user only.

[David Harper-Jones]

To make my Tajik keyboard layout, I’m starting with one of the sample keyboards in the “System Keyboards” folder, either the “Russian” or the “Russian - Phonetic”. It seems strange to me that these keyboards have different modifier sets – see attached screenshots. The table for “Russian” has about twice as many entries as the one for “Russian - Phonetic”. Which example should I base my modifier set on? Or shall I start from scratch? I tried this once, and came up with a table significantly shorter even than the “Russian - Phonetic” one!

If I understand correctly, these sample keyboards are Apple’s keyboards from OS X a few versions back. Given Apple’s reputation for good design and programming, I would expect more consistency in the modifier sets, and, for that matter, in the characters they choose to put on Option and Option=Shift – for the “Polish Pro” keyboard, some letters were included twice, which seems like the waste of a key!

Regards, David

[John Brownie]

David Harper-Jones wrote:

To make my Tajik keyboard layout, I�m starting with one of the sample keyboards in the �System Keyboards� folder, either the �Russian� or the �Russian - Phonetic�. It seems strange to me that these keyboards have different modifier sets � see attached screenshots. The table for �Russian� has about twice as many entries as the one for �Russian - Phonetic�. Which example should I base my modifier set on? Or shall I start from scratch? I tried this once, and came up with a table significantly shorter even than the �Russian - Phonetic� one!

If I understand correctly, these sample keyboards are Apple�s keyboards from OS X a few versions back. Given Apple�s reputation for good design and programming, I would expect more consistency in the modifier sets, and, for that matter, in the characters they choose to put on Option and Option=Shift � for the �Polish Pro� keyboard, some letters were included twice, which seems like the waste of a key!

Yes, these were the keyboard layouts from Tiger (10.4).

The modifier combinations are far more elaborate than currently useful, as they use separate left and right modifier keys, which no longer exist. With any USB keyboard, there is no right modifier key, so you will never be able to reach those combinations which require a right modifier key.

Which you use is up to you, or even if you decide to start from scratch. The only important factor is making something that you can remember how to use, and also your users (if it's not just for you).

Polish Pro isn't the only keyboard layout to have a character in more than one place. The Finnish keyboard had two ways of generating the � character. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but it's possibly dealing with earlier standards or de facto standards for keyboard layout.

John
--
John Brownie, john_b...@sil.org or j.br...@sil.org.pg

Summer Institute of Linguistics����� | Mussau-Emira language, Mussau Is.

Ukarumpa, Eastern Highlands Province | New Ireland Province

Papua New Guinea�������������������� | Papua New Guinea

[Sorin Paliga]

I have already created a Cyrillic keylayout, which should cover all characters used in non-Slavic languages of the former Soviet Union. It is labelled Cyrillic Linguist, and may be downloaded from my webpage at the Univ. of Bucharest:

http://www.unibuc.ro/e/prof/paliga_v_s/soft-reso/

You may also find other keylayouts, for Etruscan and Old Italic, U.S. Academic (for linguistic and dialectal texts) etc.

May this is useful to you.

S.P.

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<Modifiers for Russian.png><Modifiers for Russian - Phonetic.png>

[Sorin Paliga]

John

Indeed, some keylayouts have the same chars in more than one place. Sometimes, these seems indeed redundant, but the chars affected by the lack of the extra key left to Z (or Y on QWERTZ physical keyboards) must be put twice, otherwise they will not be accessible on a U.S. physical keyboard. Sometimes, Apple engineering forgot this detail, starting from the assumption that some keylayouts for certain European languages should be used with an ISO extended keyboard. A bad assumption, many people use U.S. physical keyboards (this is mainly valid for notebooks), the consequence being the impossibility to access those chars. Romanian had such a problem, solved meanwhile after my insistent feedback. Hungarian still has a problem with accessing zero if a U.S. physical keyboard and, perhaps, other keylayouts have the same problem.

Apple has not revised the location of the initial chars, some are redundantly put twice, some are useless, instead of putting something indeed useful etc. There are many instances to be corrected, beginning with the reference U.S. keylayout.

Hope this helps.

On 05.09.2012, at 04:29, John Brownie <john_b...@sil.org> wrote:

David Harper-Jones wrote:

To make my Tajik keyboard layout, I’m starting with one of the sample keyboards in the “System Keyboards” folder, either the “Russian” or the “Russian - Phonetic”. It seems strange to me that these keyboards have different modifier sets – see attached screenshots. The table for “Russian” has about twice as many entries as the one for “Russian - Phonetic”. Which example should I base my modifier set on? Or shall I start from scratch? I tried this once, and came up with a table significantly shorter even than the “Russian - Phonetic” one!

If I understand correctly, these sample keyboards are Apple’s keyboards from OS X a few versions back. Given Apple’s reputation for good design and programming, I would expect more consistency in the modifier sets, and, for that matter, in the characters they choose to put on Option and Option=Shift – for the “Polish Pro” keyboard, some letters were included twice, which seems like the waste of a key!

Yes, these were the keyboard layouts from Tiger (10.4).

The modifier combinations are far more elaborate than currently useful, as they use separate left and right modifier keys, which no longer exist. With any USB keyboard, there is no right modifier key, so you will never be able to reach those combinations which require a right modifier key.

Which you use is up to you, or even if you decide to start from scratch. The only important factor is making something that you can remember how to use, and also your users (if it's not just for you).

Polish Pro isn't the only keyboard layout to have a character in more than one place. The Finnish keyboard had two ways of generating the ” character. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but it's possibly dealing with earlier standards or de facto standards for keyboard layout.

John
--
John Brownie, john_b...@sil.org or j.br...@sil.org.pg

Summer Institute of Linguistics      | Mussau-Emira language, Mussau Is.

Ukarumpa, Eastern Highlands Province | New Ireland Province

Papua New Guinea                     | Papua New Guinea

[David Harper-Jones (g1)]

[Reposting the message that started this thread. Resason: Unicode characters were messed up in original.] I'm probably the only person on this forum who doesn't own a Mac :-) . But since my aim is to make available Central Asian keyboards for Win, Mac & Linux, I want to work with Ukelele ... and ... I've just managed to borrow a Mac for a few weeks.

I have a couple of questions.

On the Keyboard menu, I'm a bit confused by Unlink Key ... and Unlink Modifier Set ... . The manual's description of the latter implied that keys can be unlinked for a single modifier set – they don't have to be unlinked for all. But the former command does not give you a choice of which modifier set to unlink. Also, is there a way to tell after the event whether a key has been unlinked?

Can you change the Modifiers for a layout you've already designed?

I've followed some of the previous discussions, an I'd like to know whether I can package my keyboard in one way and it be easy for users of all recent OS X versions to install, or do I have to package it differently – or maybe provide different instructions – for Mountain Lion users? Regards, David