move and create lock keys

[darr...@gmail.com]

Hello, beginner with Ukelele, I want to do a custom keyboard layout where:
what is known on mac american qwerty as 'caps lock' prints in normal level the ASCII apostroph '   , and in shift level a locker for digits
what is known on mac american qwerty as 'tab' prints in normal level the ASCII quote "   , and in shift level a locker for CAPITAL LETTERS
what is known on a mac american qwerty as '@ #' prints; instead of @ and #, in normal and shift level, a tabulation

I've tried to move tab, and it works, but not on all applications. However, moving software such as Karabiner doesn't seems to allow to move tab to a key different from "system" key, and so no '@ #'.

I've read the documentation of Ukulele but didn't find way neither to split modifiers in different levels nor create one who act as a lock, different of pre-existing keys.

I've have already, I'm new, so excuse for any mistakes on this group.

Darrljun

[Gé van Gasteren]

Hi Darrljun,

This is just to confirm what you have already found out: What you want to do is not possible with the use of keyboard layouts.
To do such things, you really need to have an application running that constantly monitors keystrokes on a "low level" – Karabiner is one such application.

In Ukelele’s manual, which you can access through the Help menu, there’s this paragraph in the section about "What Ukelele can’t do":
Other software, such as Better Touch Tool (https:// www.boastr.net/), Karabiner (formerly KeyRemap4MacBook) (https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/) or DoubleCommand (http://doublecommand.sourceforge.net/), can do this and more.

So I suggest you have a look at those. Or maybe someone in this group knows which application could do something like you want.

Just some doubt: I’m not sure why you want to make these changes. What is the general purpose or the idea behind it?

I ask this because oftentimes, one has a certain goal in mind which it turns out to be very hard to achieve, but something close to it can be accomplished easily, just in a different way than you had been thinking/exploring.

Good luck!

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[darr...@gmail.com]

Thank you for your answer.

I was arranging my keyboard to have more programming symbols like |\{}$&[]<>@ in direct access, with also other linguistic parameters.
And so, I was wanting to more space, and so use the caps lock key as a normal key. But, because caps lock are useful to me, I was wanting to keep it, and to not take too much place, just place caps in one level, shift; and not levels, as this key usually functions. This possible in Xorg, (mostly linux), caps lock is activated by shift + touch and desactivate by the same way.
Just do this thing with just Karabiner and not Ukelele seems to be difficult, because it's to definite the keys to be CAPITALIZED. I will see if it's possible with the softwares you indicated.
Another difficuly: create a new locker key for digits. If I was quasi-sure that it will be impossible with Karabiner, it's seems to be also the case with Karabiner, because Karabiner doesn't ask to precise the effect of the key.

Anyway I will see the docs.

[Sorin Paliga]

You may use capslock in combination with option/alt in order to get an additional level.

You may NOT force the keylayout to behave outside the rules, which guide the system, for this you may get further change via an app like Karabiner. 

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[Gé van Gasteren]

Hi Darrljun,

Do you really find it too complicated to use the Shift key to type { }@<> etc.?

And for the numbers, maybe you could use the numeric keypad?

One way to access more symbols than at present is using a so-called Dead Key: You type that key first, then one other key to produce the resulting symbol.

Would that be something you’d like? That can easily be done with Ukelele by adapting the keyboard layout you are using till now.

Best,

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[darr...@gmail.com]

"You may use capslock in combination with option/alt in order to get an additional level."

If I need to held shift or alt, it loses all the benefits: I can more simply tap digits with only shift or alt hold.
Anyway, the idea is very good to put more symbols, I have'nt imagine caps like this.

"You may NOT force the keylayout to behave outside the rules, which guide the system, for this you may get further change via an app like Karabiner. '"
Badly, it had to be expected.

Thanks.

[darr...@gmail.com]

It is not really more complicated, but for what I can possibly do, it would be useful if I can do both.

I haven't numeric keypad.

Dead keys? was one of the first idea I've tested, Ukelele is very good at this game, much more than Xorg and MKLC.
However, as shift/alt + caps lock, it's not relevant because it makes one touch more, or a touch which acts very similarly to shift/alt. Maybe it can be good, but I have to see, as Karabiner.

Is it possible to define new modifiers keys other than cmd, ctrl, alt, shift, caps, fn?

Thank you for the answers, if I'd expected Ukelele has this limits, I had not thought that its community was reactive (custom keyboard seems to be a subject having more few interests than language constructions).

[John Brownie]

darr...@gmail.com wrote:
> Is it possible to define new modifiers keys other than cmd, ctrl, alt,
> shift, caps, fn?

No. That set is built into the keyboard system, and can't be extended by
a keyboard layout.

My memory is hazy about it, but there was some system that allowed key
chording at one point, that is, holding down more than a single key at a
time to produce distinct outputs. That might be what you want.

John
--
John Brownie
In Finland on furlough from SIL Papua New Guinea

[Gé van Gasteren]

I’m not sure if that was clear, but you can also assign a dead key to an "unshifted" key, like the  ̀ top left key on the keyboard, or the quote key '. That would make it very easy to access.

But maybe the best idea for you would be to do something like the French keyboard layout: have all your symbols on the top row where the digits are now, and have the digits assigned to Shift + <those keys> and also on CapsLock + <those keys>.

Combinations of modifier keys, like Shift+Option, or Shift-Command, count as separate modifier keys and can have their own states. Just in case...

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[darr...@gmail.com]

I was planning to do like the french azerty indeed. I will now see if a deadkey brings interesting things.

For the others modifiers, shift+options and shift+command, can it be bad if, e.g. when I put ! on command+a   (the qwerty touch where a is), because the system will cannot do the command+a  , in other words, if I put other symbols than letter on command+key level, will I be able to do system command like copy, paste...?

[Sorin Paliga]

Command+letter is for system commands, not for getting new chars.

On 7 Dec 2016, at 20:44, darr...@gmail.com wrote:

I was planning to do like the french azerty indeed. I will now see if a deadkey brings interesting things.

For the others modifiers, shift+options and shift+command, can it be bad if, e.g. when I put ! on command+a   (the qwerty touch where a is), because the system will cannot do the command+a  , in other words, if I put other symbols than letter on command+key level, will I be able to do system command like copy, paste...?

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[Gé van Gasteren]

Sorin is right, Darrljun,

It may be possible to use Command+<something>=<a symbol> in some applications/cases, but in general it’s much better to avoid these combinations. The Control key is a better choice already. The most common two states for extra symbols are Option and Shift-Option, but it should be possible to add CapsLock, Shift-Capslock, Option-CapsLock, and Shift-Option-CapsLock.

And even with that, it seems one can’t be sure: In my own keyboard layout, Option-2 produces the standard € sign in all applications, except in MS Word, where I get some other symbol.
(Sometimes character definitions are linked through such levels, which means that when you change one combination’s output, the output for another combination may change "by itself". If that happens, you have to "unlink" the keys.

One thought that pops up in this context: There are two standard Dvorak layouts on the Mac, one which has the most common combinations like Command-C on the Qwerty keys for C etc, and one which has them on the Dvorak keys for C etc. Depending on the behavior you prefer, you could create your custom layout using either of those two layouts as your starting point.

On 7 December 2016 at 19:48, Sorin Paliga <sorin....@gmail.com> wrote:

Command+letter is for system commands, not for getting new chars.

On 7 Dec 2016, at 20:44, darr...@gmail.com wrote:

I was planning to do like the french azerty indeed. I will now see if a deadkey brings interesting things.

For the others modifiers, shift+options and shift+command, can it be bad if, e.g. when I put ! on command+a   (the qwerty touch where a is), because the system will cannot do the command+a  , in other words, if I put other symbols than letter on command+key level, will I be able to do system command like copy, paste...?

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