New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20
steve
New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20
-------------------------------------
Speedcheck SVVD or SPECS went online last weekend on the M1, netting
4,300 offenders in a single day. The system does not use instantaneous
speed like the cameras we're all familiar with, instead measuring the
average speed of every vehicle over a distance of about a mile. How? By
reading your license plates and matching them up camera-to-camera. Kent
and Leicestershire police are so impressed with it that systems are
being erected in their enforcement areas too. This is a new system which
has now entered service after successful trials on the M1 and M20 in the
UK.
Speedcheck SVDD (Sureway Video Detection Device) is a system similar in
concept to the GATSO, but with a new twist. SVDD deploys cameras at
either end of a measured baseline (up to 500 metres) to monitor vehicles
24 hours a day. Using machine vision, vehicle number plates are read,
and the precise time of each observation recorded and as a vehicle
passes the second camera, the number plate records are matched, and an
average speed for the vehicle iscalculated. If this is above the trigger
speed, then the vehicle'sidentification is recorded along with it's
speed. It is also flashed up on a huge illuminated sign further down the
road to embarrass the driver into slowing down.
When triggered, the detection technology used in these cameras
automatically records the date, precise time, location and speed of the
offending vehicle, along with a full colour image of the front of the
vehicle, which clearly records the numberplate, make, model and colour
of vehicle.
There are four overriding reasons for the habitual speeder to be afraid
of this system:
It works 24 hours a day, needs no film, uses no flash, and uses no
radar....so bad luck all those of you who think that radar detectors
work.
It's been proven to be over 99% accurate in almost all weather
conditions.
It doesn't do spot-speed checking. A GATSO can only check the speed of a
vehicle within a certain range so the tactic most drivers use now is to
slow down for the camera and then speed up again once past it.
Speedcheck measures average speed over a known distance.
So if you do 60mph under each camera and then speed up to 80mph in
between, your average speed is likely to be near 70mph - 10 over the
limit imposed (technically) - you're nicked. SVDD say this means that
the system can impose a far smoother flow of traffic eliminating slow-
fast driving that GATSO cameras provoke. Because it's automated, the
system is entirely self-sufficient. It's hooked up to the DVLA
computers, and can automatically process the fines and send out notices
in the post.
It's Big Brother Time!!!
;) Rob....
---
Steve /|\ zaax
http://www.zaxxon.demon.co.uk
Please change 'nospam' to zaxxon before replying.
Martin Briscoe
from steve <St...@nospam.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> It doesn't do spot-speed checking. A GATSO can only check the speed of a
> vehicle within a certain range so the tactic most drivers use now is to
> slow down for the camera and then speed up again once past it.
> Speedcheck measures average speed over a known distance.
> So if you do 60mph under each camera and then speed up to 80mph in
> between, your average speed is likely to be near 70mph - 10 over the
> limit imposed (technically) - you're nicked. SVDD say this means that
> the system can impose a far smoother flow of traffic eliminating slow-
> fast driving that GATSO cameras provoke. Because it's automated, the
> system is entirely self-sufficient. It's hooked up to the DVLA
> computers, and can automatically process the fines and send out notices
> in the post.
Perhaps the one good thing about these is that the person using a bit
of extra speed to overtake will be safer. I noticed earlier this
year that the main roads through the Borders seemed to have a GATSO
on just about every good straight stretch of road. I was overtaken
several times on bends, presumably people knew they were safe from
GATSO's there even if the actually overtaking was more dangerous.
Martin
darsy
wrote:
>
>It's Big Brother Time!!!
But if it reads from the front, bikers are OK anyway.
And if not, it's fractal lettering time...
--
darsy TCP#0 GSF1200Nx SZR660 "The Voice of Reason"
http://www.ukrm.org.uk
Yarzie
steve wrote in message <$XFLzEAl...@zaxxon.keme.co.uk>...
>
>
>New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20
>-------------------------------------
>
>road to embarrass the driver into slowing down.
>>
them what road they're on or lane they need to be in so chances of them
being able to notice their own numberplate on a sign by the road is zilch
might have to fit an anti tank gun to the outfit and take out the gantries.
Mark Bentley
Yarzie wrote in message ...
darsy
<mark.b...@elyzium.co.uk> wrote:
>What's fractal lettering?
Lettering done with fractals. OCR won't read 'em.
Pawel Tetnowski
> >What's fractal lettering?
>
> Lettering done with fractals. OCR won't read 'em.
Where can I get fractal lettering numberplate? :)
If no one does them then it sounds like a good business opportunity ....
--
----------------------
Mr. Pawel Tetnowski <Pawel.T...@brunel.ac.uk>
newbie with YZF R6
tapas_kanungo
complex pattern, rather than a solid, is much harder for
OCR software to recognise.
Lettering filled with hyper-complex and ultra-complex
designs such as fractals will defeat the Hidden Markov
Models (HMM) used in OCR, including the Forward, Viterbi
and Baum-Welch algorithms.
--
Tapas Kanungo.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Nick Finnigan
> Speedcheck SVVD or SPECS went online last weekend on the M1, netting
> 4,300 offenders in a single day. The system does not use instantaneous
> speed like the cameras we're all familiar with, instead measuring the
> average speed of every vehicle over a distance of about a mile. How? By
> reading your license plates and matching them up camera-to-camera.
[snip]
> When triggered, the detection technology used in these cameras
> automatically records the date, precise time, location and speed of the
> offending vehicle, along with a full colour image of the front of the
> vehicle, which clearly records the numberplate, make, model and colour
> of vehicle.
I'd expect the courts to require 2 accurately timed pictures,
one from each camera, in order to prove the speeding offence.
Not a big problem though, it just means storing the image of
every car going past the first camera until it should have
reached the second one, if it were travelling at the limit.
They wouldn't even need to read the licence plate accurately,
just generate a signature of the plate or the whole vehicle.
> Because it's automated, the system is entirely self-sufficient.
What's that supposed to mean?
Steve Vereecke
theoretical possibilitty assumbed by some people ?
in other words , does it exist ?
tapas_kanungo <tapas_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9325535...@www.remarq.com...
Andy McClelland
[re: a query on 'fractal text']
> Text where the body of the lettering is composed with any
> complex pattern, rather than a solid, is much harder for
> OCR software to recognise.
>
> Lettering filled with hyper-complex and ultra-complex
> designs such as fractals will defeat the Hidden Markov
> Models (HMM) used in OCR, including the Forward, Viterbi
> and Baum-Welch algorithms.
Only if the video acquisition system has the resolution
to capture the complex image in the first place, and
there are no simple pre-processing filters applied.
Nick Leverton
>
> New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20
> -------------------------------------
This article has been going the rounds by email for a couple of weeks
now and I've been involved in a couple of discussions of it. Whilst the
technology may be possible, nobody can say beyond the apparent puffery
in the message where it is being rolled out. It sounds like a
manufacturer's release to me, possibly also confusing the filmless radar
GATSOs and the blue Trafficmaster time-between-cameras detectors. Does
anyone have any reliable information if this is actually a live sytem ?
Nick
darsy
Which is why, of course, I was bullshitting in the first place (and
didn't expect such luminaries as Dr.Kanungo to show up!). Of course,
one might suggest that this leaves the door open for contesting
convictions based on inadequate resolution of the device...
Pawel Tetnowski
> now and I've been involved in a couple of discussions of it. Whilst the
> technology may be possible, nobody can say beyond the apparent puffery
> in the message where it is being rolled out. It sounds like a
> manufacturer's release to me, possibly also confusing the filmless radar
> GATSOs and the blue Trafficmaster time-between-cameras detectors. Does
> anyone have any reliable information if this is actually a live sytem ?
>
> Nick
>
Just an idea ... does anyone know what the penalty for not displaying a
numberplate is [1] or having a bit of numberplate broken off, or some of the
letters smudged so that it is not traceable?
[1] might solve the GATSO problem ...
y
Pawel Tetnowski wrote:
>
> > This article has been going the rounds by email for a couple of weeks
> > now and I've been involved in a couple of discussions of it. Whilst the
> > technology may be possible, nobody can say beyond the apparent puffery
> > in the message where it is being rolled out. It sounds like a
> > manufacturer's release to me, possibly also confusing the filmless radar
> > GATSOs and the blue Trafficmaster time-between-cameras detectors. Does
> > anyone have any reliable information if this is actually a live sytem ?
> >
> > Nick
> >
>
> Just an idea ... does anyone know what the penalty for not displaying a
> numberplate is [1] or having a bit of numberplate broken off, or some of the
> letters smudged so that it is not traceable?
>
> [1] might solve the GATSO problem ...
Without number plate 20 pounds and NO points, NO ban.
With an incorrect number plate PRISON.
If you get caught multiple times with no number plate the DVLA can take
your VRO away from you and you have to re-register your vehicle.
Riding without number plate really is a valid anti-gatso measure.
--
Cheers,
Mark
Pawel Tetnowski
> > numberplate is [1] or having a bit of numberplate broken off, or some of
the
> > letters smudged so that it is not traceable?
> >
> > [1] might solve the GATSO problem ...
>
>
> Without number plate 20 pounds and NO points, NO ban.
>
> With an incorrect number plate PRISON.
>
> If you get caught multiple times with no number plate the DVLA can take
> your VRO away from you and you have to re-register your vehicle.
>
> Riding without number plate really is a valid anti-gatso measure.
>
If next time I go speeding [1][2] I'll cover my numberplate does this equate
to same as not having a numberplate? e.g. 20 pounds fine?
[1] hypothetically speaking since I have never exceeded the speed limit
before :)
[2] and the only offence is having covered the numberplate
Paul Smith
>Without number plate 20 pounds and NO points, NO ban.
[snip]
>Riding without number plate really is a valid anti-gatso measure.
So we need to work towards "National Throw Away The Back Number Plate
Day" Non-violent direct action I think it's called. The little fines
should clog the courts up nicely.
Now, who is going to publicise and organize it as a valid protest
againt a big-brother state ?
Cheers, Paul
Scotland, UK
------------
please remove "XYZ" to reply by email
dog
> Lettering filled with hyper-complex and ultra-complex
> designs such as fractals will defeat the Hidden Markov
> Models (HMM) used in OCR, including the Forward, Viterbi
> and Baum-Welch algorithms.
and make your eyes go wobbly.
dog
Richard Corfield
> [New type of speed camera]
Big brother indeed, but how well can it be said that there is never
any excuse for travelling that 0.001 mph over the machine's rigid
speed limit? I'd hope that the limit on the M1 machines is therefore
realisticly higher than 70mph to not catch a lot of drivers that go
over that speed yet do not seem to be causing any danger yet still
catch the stupidly fast ones.
- Richard
--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard Corfield <Ric...@Littondale.freeserve.co.uk>
_/ _/ _/ _/ Web Page: http://www.littondale.freeserve.co.uk
_/_/ _/ _/ Dance (Ballroom, RnR), Hiking, SJA, Linux, ... [ENfP]
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ PGP2.6 Key ID: 0x0FB084B1 PGP5 Key ID: 0xFA139DA7
Richard Smith
> Without number plate 20 pounds and NO points, NO ban.
>
> With an incorrect number plate PRISON.
>
> If you get caught multiple times with no number plate the DVLA can take
> your VRO away from you and you have to re-register your vehicle.
>
> Riding without number plate really is a valid anti-gatso measure.
With a really dirty plate? "Gosh, officer, I hadn't noticed it was that
dirty, I'll just clean it now..."
--
Richard Smith
GSX550ES R100/7/RT
"I knew 'twas I; for many do call me fool."
Steve Vereecke
speed and the wind would go up , perhaps helped y a small cord , is that an
offense :) ?
Pawel Tetnowski <pawel.t...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:7n4i6j$a20$1...@mimas.brunel.ac.uk...
> > > Just an idea ... does anyone know what the penalty for not displaying
a
> > > numberplate is [1] or having a bit of numberplate broken off, or some
of
> the
> > > letters smudged so that it is not traceable?
> > >
> > > [1] might solve the GATSO problem ...
> >
> >
> > Without number plate 20 pounds and NO points, NO ban.
> >
> > With an incorrect number plate PRISON.
> >
> > If you get caught multiple times with no number plate the DVLA can take
> > your VRO away from you and you have to re-register your vehicle.
> >
> > Riding without number plate really is a valid anti-gatso measure.
> >
>
Dan Nitschke
> and make your eyes go wobbly.
Too late for that.
--
/* dan: The Anti-Ged, BOF #26, GAGARPHOF (tm) #1, LCDB (tm) #1 */
Dan Nitschke * * peDA...@best.com * * d...@annuncio.com
*************************************************************
The trouble with you is the trouble with me: you got two good
eyes, but you still don't see. -- The Dead, "Casey Jones"
Nigel
Scenario:
Driving along a motorway in good road conditions. I notice a speed camera a
fair distance away.
Do I :
a) continue my merry journey knowing that I overtook a car a while back
which may have increased my average to 70.9 MPH. I'll just cross my fingers
and hope the average works out ok.
b) slow down to a conservative 65MPH in order to reduce my average and just
ignore the other cars flashing their lights. At least I won't get caught
speeding!!
Nigel
Richard Corfield wrote in message
<821ze2t...@localhost.littondale.freeserve.co.uk>...
msh...@dmu.ac.uk
> tapas_kanungo wrote:
>
> [re: a query on 'fractal text']
> >
> > designs such as fractals will defeat the Hidden Markov
> > Models (HMM) used in OCR, including the Forward, Viterbi
> > and Baum-Welch algorithms.
>
> to capture the complex image in the first place, and
> there are no simple pre-processing filters applied.
"'Ere, Sarge, that new camera has picked up another speeding bike
belonging to that Mandelbrot fella."
"Fukkit. Send the ticket to Mat "The Nose" Taberner. He owns most of the
bikes in the country and is obviously a villain."
Martin
UKMC
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Alien Kev
>steve wrote:
>>
>> New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20
>> -------------------------------------
>
>now and I've been involved in a couple of discussions of it. Whilst the
>technology may be possible, nobody can say beyond the apparent puffery
>in the message where it is being rolled out. It sounds like a
>manufacturer's release to me, possibly also confusing the filmless radar
>GATSOs and the blue Trafficmaster time-between-cameras detectors. Does
>anyone have any reliable information if this is actually a live sytem ?
YES. A police newsletter!
--
Kevin
XJ600N, WUSS#6
Felixstowe.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men - true nobility
is being superior to your former self
Uk-SpeedTraps
there any more, Autoexpesss had an article on it two weeks ago to confirm
this.
I found one system that seams to be in use on a fixed pole in the UK, Its on
my page under SPECS, however the picture on the page is infact not looking
for speeders, but protecting a low railway bridge from nutters in lorries
not remembering the hight. It is however the same system can be used for
speeders.
It is also in use in London, in the so called Ring of Steel, once again used
to monotor traffic, mainly during Terrorist actitivty.
However they do intend to start using it to get speeders, but they have one
very small problem 5% of readings taken don't come out. This is why they
don't want fancy numberplates..
It is mainly used to get speeders in road works as was the system on the M1
around Jun 24.
Hope this helps, Check out SPECS, SSVD & ANPR for mor info on how they work
and what they look like.
Author of "The UK SpeedTrap Guide"
@ http://jump.to/uk-speedtraps
or http://www.madasafish.com/uk-speedtraps
ICQ #: 43850753
Nick Leverton <lev...@warren.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3795B5BF...@warren.demon.co.uk...
> steve wrote:
> >
> > New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20
> > -------------------------------------
>
> This article has been going the rounds by email for a couple of weeks
> now and I've been involved in a couple of discussions of it. Whilst the
> technology may be possible, nobody can say beyond the apparent puffery
> in the message where it is being rolled out. It sounds like a
> manufacturer's release to me, possibly also confusing the filmless radar
> GATSOs and the blue Trafficmaster time-between-cameras detectors. Does
> anyone have any reliable information if this is actually a live sytem ?
>
> Nick
>
Peter Smithson
<Kevin.Dickerson[nospam]@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Nick Leverton wrote in message <3795B5BF...@warren.demon.co.uk>...
>>steve wrote:
>>>
>>> New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20
>>> -------------------------------------
>>
>>This article has been going the rounds by email for a couple of weeks
>>now and I've been involved in a couple of discussions of it. Whilst the
>>technology may be possible, nobody can say beyond the apparent puffery
>>in the message where it is being rolled out. It sounds like a
>>manufacturer's release to me, possibly also confusing the filmless radar
>>GATSOs and the blue Trafficmaster time-between-cameras detectors. Does
>>anyone have any reliable information if this is actually a live sytem ?
>
>YES. A police newsletter!
There was a discussion on the Ixion mailing list involving a police
officer but she could not confirm this story.
Any chance of a copy of the letter? Or is it too big to type in?
--
Windsor & District MAG - http://bigfoot.com/~wadmag
Grant Mason
news:821ze2t...@localhost.littondale.freeserve.co.uk...
> [snip]
> I'd hope that the limit on the M1 machines is therefore
> realisticly higher than 70mph to not catch a lot of drivers that go
> over that speed yet do not seem to be causing any danger yet still
> catch the stupidly fast ones.
What is stupidly fast then? 75? 90? 105?
I've always thought that most drivers define speed as:
Drives slower than me : a fool who shouldn't be allowed on the road.
Drives at the same speed as me : a careful, considerate driver
Drives faster than me : evil, homicidal maniac who should be locked up
Neil J. Smalley
<orbita...@hotmail.com> writes
>SPECS (SSVD) has been in use on the M1 but the system does not appear to be
>there any more, Autoexpesss had an article on it two weeks ago to confirm
>this.
>very small problem 5% of readings taken don't come out. This is why they
>don't want fancy numberplates..
That means that for every 1000 cars caught 50 will have the wrong
information taken down.
If photo's stored digitally is not admissible as evidence (because
there is no foolproof way of guaranteeing that the image hasn't
been tampered with) then how can they get any convictions with it?
The above being true how can they prove that the system didn't misread
the number plate?
OK, say for example you drive a blue vectra(why?) and the system reads
the number plate P632NOP. At the next bridge it reads the number plate
of another blue vectra P633MOP. It calculates that P632MOP was speeding
sends off the NIP, in reality the poor guy in P633MOP was innocent and
just happened to be passing the bridge. Of course P632NOP is laughing
from ear to ear.
If it is proven that the system can misread number plates and thus
mistake the identity of a vehicle how can evidence produced by it
be deemed valid? I can see how it would be useful in anti-terrorist
operations but speeding?
Even without taking into account potential bugs in the software it would
seem easy to pick this system to bits. Mind you this doesn't take into
account the 'the police are always right' attitude of most magistrates.
This technology seems to be even more flawed than laser.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
'Only six computers will ever be sold in the commercial market'
Howard Aiken (The designer of IBM first computer)
Neil J. Smalley
JP Davis
<ne...@basha.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <93258203...@news.remarQ.com>, Uk-SpeedTraps
><orbita...@hotmail.com> writes
>>SPECS (SSVD) has been in use on the M1 but the system does not appear to be
>>there any more, Autoexpesss had an article on it two weeks ago to confirm
>>this.
>>However they do intend to start using it to get speeders, but they have one
>>very small problem 5% of readings taken don't come out. This is why they
>>don't want fancy numberplates..
>Hang on a sec.
>That means that for every 1000 cars caught 50 will have the wrong
>information taken down.
>
>If photo's stored digitally is not admissible as evidence (because
>there is no foolproof way of guaranteeing that the image hasn't
>been tampered with) then how can they get any convictions with it?
Wrong -digital evidence can be admissable.
>
>The above being true how can they prove that the system didn't misread
>the number plate?
>
>OK, say for example you drive a blue vectra(why?) and the system reads
>the number plate P632NOP. At the next bridge it reads the number plate
>of another blue vectra P633MOP. It calculates that P632MOP was speeding
>sends off the NIP, in reality the poor guy in P633MOP was innocent and
>just happened to be passing the bridge. Of course P632NOP is laughing
>from ear to ear.
System will bin the process - it wont allow any form of misreads.
>
>If it is proven that the system can misread number plates and thus
>mistake the identity of a vehicle how can evidence produced by it
>be deemed valid? I can see how it would be useful in anti-terrorist
>operations but speeding?
As above - if there is any doubt of a misread, the system will not
allow further automatic reading. A manual read is then done.
>
>Even without taking into account potential bugs in the software it would
>seem easy to pick this system to bits. Mind you this doesn't take into
>account the 'the police are always right' attitude of most magistrates.
>
>This technology seems to be even more flawed than laser.
How do you reckon laser (or LiDAR) is flawed?
Kevin
> Text where the body of the lettering is composed with any
> complex pattern, rather than a solid, is much harder for
> OCR software to recognise.
>
> Lettering filled with hyper-complex and ultra-complex
> designs such as fractals will defeat the Hidden Markov
> Models (HMM) used in OCR, including the Forward, Viterbi
> and Baum-Welch algorithms.
That has to be the best follow up I have ever read! Brilliant! :-)
Seriously though, can you somehow introduce a morié pattern into your
number plate that will fool the OCR cameras???
--
Kevin Ward
As the Lighthouse keeper climbed the stairs, the keeper knew that
future generations would benefit from today's work.
Bob Cousins
>steve wrote:
>>
>> New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20
>> -------------------------------------
>
>This article has been going the rounds by email for a couple of weeks
>now and I've been involved in a couple of discussions of it. Whilst the
>technology may be possible, nobody can say beyond the apparent puffery
>in the message where it is being rolled out. It sounds like a
>manufacturer's release to me, possibly also confusing the filmless radar
>GATSOs and the blue Trafficmaster time-between-cameras detectors. Does
>anyone have any reliable information if this is actually a live sytem ?
I've seen this going the rounds on email too. My initial reaction was "hoax".
However, seeing it on a website, I though maybe it is genuine. On the other
hand, anyone can put anything on a website withiout checking it, and normally
do.
I have at least two major doubts:
1. It's been said that digitally stored images will not stand up in court
because there is a possibility they have been tampered with, which led to the
cancelling of a previous project. This sytstem seems to rely on digitial images.
What has changed?
2. Where did any Police force get several million to pay for this system?
Apparently they have trouble running Gatso's, which only cost 20,000, and can
only afford to have a fraction actually taking pictures. Knowing about the
technology required, there is a lot of expense in processing the stated volume
of traffic, in terms of computer and network costs. Maybe a third party
developed it, but it is not going to be cheap.
Given that other public sector projects end up late/buggy/over budget, I can't
quite see how or when this magic system was rustled up.
It all sounds very fishy.
--
Bob Cousins, Software Engineer.
http://www.lintilla.demon.co.uk/
"We demand that we may, or may not, be philosophers!"
Mark Abraham
>Text where the body of the lettering is composed with any
>complex pattern, rather than a solid, is much harder for
>OCR software to recognise.
>
>Lettering filled with hyper-complex and ultra-complex
>designs such as fractals will defeat the Hidden Markov
>Models (HMM) used in OCR, including the Forward, Viterbi
>and Baum-Welch algorithms.
indeed except that if visible to the human eye it will also
be an illegal plate and therefore you wont need to be
speeding to be pulled!
If invisible to the eye as some that can be used to defeat
gatsos (change with flash) it will not defeat the new camera
as it uses no flash.
Mark Abraham
>if the numberplate would be attached with hinges at the top , and due to
the
>speed and the wind would go up , perhaps helped y a small cord , is that an
>offense :) ?
Come on steve. the law specifies display of a plate.
It specifies where the plate should be. the letters used
and their height.
If you make it smaller, obscure it, tamper with it,
remove it, make it fully reflective, fit a solenoid activated
plate switcher, etc etc ......
if your caught your gonna get nicked
Mark Abraham
>Richard Corfield <Ric...@Littondale.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:821ze2t...@localhost.littondale.freeserve.co.uk...
>> [snip]
>I've always thought that most drivers define speed as:
>Drives slower than me : a fool who shouldn't be allowed on the road.
>Drives at the same speed as me : a careful, considerate driver
>Drives faster than me : evil, homicidal maniac who should be locked up
indeed Riders also!!
Neil J. Smalley
<jphl...@clara.co.uk> writes
>On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:40:11 +0100, "Neil J. Smalley"
><ne...@basha.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>If photo's stored digitally is not admissible as evidence (because
>>there is no foolproof way of guaranteeing that the image hasn't
>>been tampered with) then how can they get any convictions with it?
>Wrong -digital evidence can be admissable.
See several excellent responses to that answer
>>
>>The above being true how can they prove that the system didn't misread
>>the number plate?
>>
>>OK, say for example you drive a blue vectra(why?) and the system reads
>>the number plate P632NOP. At the next bridge it reads the number plate
>>of another blue vectra P633MOP. It calculates that P632MOP was speeding
>>sends off the NIP, in reality the poor guy in P633MOP was innocent and
>>just happened to be passing the bridge. Of course P632NOP is laughing
>>from ear to ear.
>System will bin the process - it wont allow any form of misreads.
But what if it *does'nt* detect a misread. It will think it's read the
correct number plate. Will it bin it?
>>
>>If it is proven that the system can misread number plates and thus
>>mistake the identity of a vehicle how can evidence produced by it
>>be deemed valid? I can see how it would be useful in anti-terrorist
>>operations but speeding?
>As above - if there is any doubt of a misread, the system will not
>allow further automatic reading. A manual read is then done.
How can a manual read be done? it doesn't take a photo unless the car
is speeding. How much work will this generate...
>>
>>Even without taking into account potential bugs in the software it would
>>seem easy to pick this system to bits. Mind you this doesn't take into
>>account the 'the police are always right' attitude of most magistrates.
>>
>>This technology seems to be even more flawed than laser.
>How do you reckon laser (or LiDAR) is flawed?
Look at Steve Warren's Excellent site at http://jump.to/uk-speedtraps
under laser guns. There's quite a lot on the limitations of such
systems.
Windy
Chateau...@btinternet.com (The Older
Gentleman) wrote:
>
>There's a point. Mat's been very quiet lately....
He's discovering the Meaning of Lif^H^H^HWork.
--
~*~*~*~* " W I N D Y" *~*~*~*~
NGG #13 - BOCW#1 - BOG#0 -ICQ#2215547
Zephyr 1100 (Mr Al), Z550 (Kevin)
FIND THE UKRM FAQ at
http://www.windfalls.u-net.com/ukrm/ukrmfaq1.html
Richard Corfield
> Which is why, of course, I was bullshitting in the first place (and
> didn't expect such luminaries as Dr.Kanungo to show up!). Of course,
> one might suggest that this leaves the door open for contesting
> convictions based on inadequate resolution of the device...
Or if they get one going 150mph down the M1 the possibility that
they'll just get a human to read it. Though in the case of the system
that reads your number plate at two places down the road in order to
tell your speed then the situation would not arise if you would not be
detected to have your photo taken in the first place.
Do these systems get confused by things like lorry drivers with their
CB "handles" on second number plates? Perhaps you could have a large
retroflective rectangle with a random pattern that will divert the
machine's attention from the real plate. This again relies on no
human intervention in the system, for example if the machine records
a car with number plate "George" doing 150mph and photographs it
and gives an error then a human may identify the real plate.
An interesting situation would be if two "George"s travel down the
motorway at a close enough distance for the system to pick them up,
take timings and get an impossibly high speed based on the second one
passing the first camera then the first one passing the second. If the
only photograph taken is at the end then there'd be no way to prove
that the two readings were off different plates.
``I hereby sentance you George with travelling in excess of 500mph
down the M1 in a 40 tonne lorry. How do you plead?"
- Richard. :-)
Richard Corfield
> Without number plate 20 pounds and NO points, NO ban.
>
> With an incorrect number plate PRISON.
Though its more likely to be detected unless you only take if off
whilst speeding. You'd need James Bond style revolving ones.
Perhaps ``Well officer that was a very muddy field I drove through.
It completely covered the front of the car''. Some roads are so muddy
with tractors coming out of fields and the mud being kicked up by
lorries that its reasonably feasable.
- Richard.
Mick Whittingham
@88honeylane.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>be an illegal plate and therefore you wont need to be
>speeding to be pulled!
>If invisible to the eye as some that can be used to defeat
>gatsos (change with flash) it will not defeat the new camera
>as it uses no flash.
>
>
you could have a pattern that is reflective to IR assuming they use an
IR illuminator and invisible to the visible wave length. Or if it is
low light, flood the number plate with IR which tends to upset low light
CCDs but is not visible to the eye.
OR
A honeycomb chrome mesh a quarter inch deep over the number plate, the
stuff that is put over fluorescent down lighting will enable the number
plate to be read directly behind the number plate at a distance of xx
meters (can't remember the exact distance with out finding my copy of
vehicles, construction and use) hence it is legal but cannot be read at
an angle by a camera.
OR
Make your own number plate up.
A layer of perspex.
A layer of yellow translucent plastic with the reg number cut out.
A layer of pyramid reflecting surface. The sort where the reflected path
returns along the incident path.
Normal lighting numbers look black, any direct illumination the numbers
'white out'.
OR
Slave flashes would still cover most of the IR spectrum and white out
the number plate.
--
Best regards
Mick Whittingham
John Kenyon
Grant Mason wrote:
>
> Richard Corfield <Ric...@Littondale.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:821ze2t...@localhost.littondale.freeserve.co.uk...
> > [snip]
> > I'd hope that the limit on the M1 machines is therefore
> > realisticly higher than 70mph to not catch a lot of drivers that go
> > over that speed yet do not seem to be causing any danger yet still
> > catch the stupidly fast ones.
>
> What is stupidly fast then? 75? 90? 105?
>
> I've always thought that most drivers define speed as:
>
> Drives slower than me : a fool who shouldn't be allowed on the road.
>
> Drives at the same speed as me : a careful, considerate driver
>
> Drives faster than me : evil, homicidal maniac who should be locked up
Bike faster than me : spawny git. (... must get my bike licence)
:)
/John
--
All views expressed are mine, not my employers.
Replies to the newsgroup please, setting follow-ups if reqd.
Change the .l to l for email
Nick Leverton
> Nick Leverton wrote in message
>
>
OK. What can you tell us to convince us it's reliable info - please, a
genuine request ?
Nick
Alien Kev
Nick Leverton wrote in message <37971550...@warren.demon.co.uk>...
The trials were performed by Kent at J8 of the M20 and by Leicester on the
M1. With display boards at the side of the road displaying speed and VRM.
Nick Leverton
> Nick Leverton wrote in message <37971550...@warren.demon.co.uk>...
> >Alien Kev wrote:
> >> Nick Leverton wrote in message
> >>
> >>anyone have any reliable information if this is actually a live sytem ?
> >>
> >> YES. A police newsletter!
> >
> >OK. What can you tell us to convince us it's reliable info - please, a
> >genuine request ?
>
> The trials were performed by Kent at J8 of the M20 and by Leicester on the
> M1. With display boards at the side of the road displaying speed and VRM.
Thanks for the start of the story :-) Yes, the display board trials
were fairly widely reported a while ago and have been mentioned in
uk.transport. But is this now part of a rolled-out and active system
with live detectors, prosecution of those detected, and appropriate
legislative backing as to the evidence acceptable ?
Nick
Alien Kev
>In uk.transport, Nick Leverton wrote:
>
>>steve wrote:
>>>
>
>1. It's been said that digitally stored images will not stand up in court
>because there is a possibility they have been tampered with, which led to
the
>cancelling of a previous project. This sytstem seems to rely on digitial
images.
>What has changed?
>
>2. Where did any Police force get several million to pay for this system?
>Apparently they have trouble running Gatso's, which only cost 20,000, and
can
>only afford to have a fraction actually taking pictures. Knowing about the
>technology required, there is a lot of expense in processing the stated
volume
>of traffic, in terms of computer and network costs. Maybe a third party
>developed it, but it is not going to be cheap.
It was developed by a company called "Speed Check" it is all part of a great
road management system. It also tracks stolen and missing vehicles.
--
Kevin
XJ600N, WUSS#6
Felixstowe.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men - true nobility
is being superior to your former self
>
Alien Kev
>On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:04:01 GMT, jphl...@clara.co.uk (JP Davis)
>wrote:
>
>>Wrong -digital evidence can be admissable.
>
1 April 1999 HO type approval was granted for the SVDD
--
Kevin
XJ600N
JP Davis
No - they are still at the trial stage. Kent and Leicester County
councils have expressed serious interest in the technology but as yet
there are no live systems for enforcing speed.
JP
>
>Nick
>
JP Davis
<Kevin.Dickerson[nospam]@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Bob Cousins wrote in message <37a35378...@news.supernews.co.uk>...
>>In uk.transport, Nick Leverton wrote:
>>
>>>steve wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>1. It's been said that digitally stored images will not stand up in court
>>because there is a possibility they have been tampered with, which led to
>the
>>cancelling of a previous project. This sytstem seems to rely on digitial
>images.
>>What has changed?
>>
>>2. Where did any Police force get several million to pay for this system?
They dont - the Police dont pay for it out of their budget. These
systems are implemented by councils, not the Police.
>>Apparently they have trouble running Gatso's, which only cost 20,000, and
>can
>>only afford to have a fraction actually taking pictures. Knowing about the
>>technology required, there is a lot of expense in processing the stated
>volume
>>of traffic, in terms of computer and network costs. Maybe a third party
>>developed it, but it is not going to be cheap.
Gatsos are paid for and sited by COUNCIL highways department, not the
Police. the only exception to this are some Met ones because of the
slightly different way their budget is worked out from other forces.
The processing of prosecutions is done by the Police on behalf of the
council and the budget for that is built into the force budget by the
Police authority which is itself funded by the council from both local
taxes and central government taxes.
>
>It was developed by a company called "Speed Check" it is all part of a great
>road management system. It also tracks stolen and missing vehicles.
Developed as part of the road target 2000 initiative started in the
last goverment
JP
>
>--
>
>Kevin
>XJ600N, WUSS#6
>Felixstowe.
>
>There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men - true nobility
>is being superior to your former self
>
>
>>
Peter Smithson
<ne...@basha.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>OK, say for example you drive a blue vectra(why?) and the system reads
>the number plate P632NOP. At the next bridge it reads the number plate
>of another blue vectra P633MOP. It calculates that P632MOP was speeding
>sends off the NIP, in reality the poor guy in P633MOP was innocent and
>just happened to be passing the bridge. Of course P632NOP is laughing
>from ear to ear.
What are the chances of that? There's 20 million people with licences
in this country - there must be a similar number of vehicles with
unique number plates. So the chances of 2 similar ones being within
the same strech of road is pretty small to start with - then you've
got the same car and colour? Must be near impossible! Won't the
system figure something is wrong when it get's 2 P633MOPS go past?
>If it is proven that the system can misread number plates and thus
>mistake the identity of a vehicle how can evidence produced by it
>be deemed valid? I can see how it would be useful in anti-terrorist
>operations but speeding?
You could say the same of GATSO cameras. They're read by humans but
mistakes still happen.
>Even without taking into account potential bugs in the software it would
>seem easy to pick this system to bits. Mind you this doesn't take into
>account the 'the police are always right' attitude of most magistrates.
I'd wouldn't like to think that they rely just on the OCR. They'd
have to give you some time stamped pictures - I know they'd be digital
but only lawyers think the police are going to sit around faking
pictures when they can get more speeders than they can cope with quite
easily! I suppose it's the principle of the thing though.
Graham Wilson
<pawel.t...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>> >What's fractal lettering?
>>
>> Lettering done with fractals. OCR won't read 'em.
>
>Where can I get fractal lettering numberplate? :)
>If no one does them then it sounds like a good business opportunity ....
See paragraph 5B Schedule 2 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and
Licensing) Regulations 1971. The regulations apply to the majority of
vehicles registered after 01st January 1973.
Paragraph (a) of the regulations states that : "...the registration
mark...shall be formed of black letters..."
Graham
Gra...@dirconabc.co.uk
(to reply remove abc from domain name)
Graham Wilson
<ne...@basha.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>If photo's stored digitally is not admissible as evidence (because
>there is no foolproof way of guaranteeing that the image hasn't
>been tampered with) then how can they get any convictions with it?
The law is changing to make digital images admissible in criminal
proceedings.
It would still be open to a defendant to argue that the image was
unreliable. Mere processing will not necessarily make the image
unreliable.
David Binderman
>
> Richard Corfield <Ric...@Littondale.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:821ze2t...@localhost.littondale.freeserve.co.uk...
> > [snip]
> > I'd hope that the limit on the M1 machines is therefore
> > realisticly higher than 70mph to not catch a lot of drivers that go
> > over that speed yet do not seem to be causing any danger yet still
> > catch the stupidly fast ones.
>
> What is stupidly fast then? 75? 90? 105?
Depends on the driver and the conditions.
Some folks don't seem able to manage 50 mph down a motorway
on a clear day.
A Formula 1 driver seems ok at 200 mph in the rain.
Stupidly fast is relative. Personally, I think this
forthcoming Euro integration could well mean the
end of the archaic 70 mph limit here.
> Drives slower than me : a fool who shouldn't be allowed on the road.
I'm happy for anyone to drive slower than me, provided they
drive left.
> Drives faster than me : evil, homicidal maniac who should be locked up
Let them go. That's their business, not mine.
Regards
dcb
Simon Atkinson
On 7/22/99, 9:26:25 PM, David Binderman <d...@pncl.co.uk> wrote regarding
Re: New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20:
What a marvellously well rounded individual you are. I wonder if we
could borrow you to show off to the neighbours?
--
Simes
Mark Abraham
>In article <7n5k2u$ajm$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>, Mark Abraham <markabraham
>@88honeylane.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>>tapas_kanungo wrote in message <9325535...@www.remarq.com>...
snip techie stealth blah blah......
shouldve been working on those US planes you should!!
heard about the topless page three girl in the Serbian paper
who was described as wearing a stealth bra :-)
JNugent
[inter alia]
>....... There's 20 million people with licences
>in this country - there must be a similar number of vehicles with
>unique number plates. So the chances of 2 similar ones being within
>the same strech of road is pretty small to start with - then you've
>got the same car and colour? Must be near impossible!
Actually, dealers "stock" registration numbers issued to them by their local
DVLC office and get plates made up ready so that they can register new
vehicles without a trip to the office - just telling the DVLC afterwards (by
post).
The numbers issued to them run sequentially (AAMOF they often ask the
customer to pick from a number of similar registration marks) and are VERY
FREQUENTLY issued sequentially to the same make/model of new car.
Dan Nitschke
> He's discovering the Meaning of Lif^H^H^HWork.
I thought work was the meaning of life.
[blink]
--
/* dan: The Anti-Ged -- Scary Git, IY (tm) #1, YJP #1, LCDB (tm) #1 */
Dan Nitschke -^- peDA...@best.com -^- dnit...@annuncio.com
\ | / | \ | / | \ | / | \ | / | \ | / | \ | / | \ | / | \ | /
We ain't too pretty, we ain't too proud. We might be laughing
a bit too loud, but that never hurt no one. -- Billy Joel
Windy
<$im...@raunds.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>What a marvellously well rounded individual you are. I wonder if we
>could borrow you to show off to the neighbours?
Simes, my darling. *You* are the most beautifully
rounded person *I* have ever met.
Mick Whittingham
<PSmi...@bigfoot.com> writes>What are the chances of that? There's 20 million people with licences
>in this country - there must be a similar number of vehicles with
>unique number plates. So the chances of 2 similar ones being within
>the same strech of road is pretty small to start with - then you've
>system figure something is wrong when it get's 2 P633MOPS go past?
>
Every time I've bought a new car or bike, I've got to chose the numbers
off of a list the dealer had. All sequential. The worrying bit was with
my now sold Toyota Supra, less than a mile away was an identical
model/colour with the number plate one digit different. It even had the
'GB' sticker in the same place. And I live in the middle of no-where.
--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.
Danny Halamish
>
> What are the chances of that? There's 20 million people with licences
> in this country - there must be a similar number of vehicles with
> unique number plates. So the chances of 2 similar ones being within
> the same strech of road is pretty small to start with - then you've
> got the same car and colour? Must be near impossible!
Far from it. If you drive a 1934 green and yellow somthingorother, than
maybe - but if you drive a white Escort? Which was bought from a local
large dealer? Which would have the same last three letters on many cars?
And might have licensed several similar Escorts one after the other?
Many companies also have fleets of cars with very similar numbers -
and I can certainly see two white vans from the same company going one
after the other on the same road.
> Won't the
> system figure something is wrong when it get's 2 P633MOPS go past?
Maybe. Maybe not. Especially not if one of them was close to a lorry and
it's plate could not be read at all, so the system doesn't even know
that two cars with similar plates drove past at once!
Danny
d...@pixelfusion.com
Peter Smithson
<d...@pixelfusion.com> wrote:
>Peter Smithson wrote:
>>
>> What are the chances of that? There's 20 million people with licences
>> in this country - there must be a similar number of vehicles with
>> unique number plates. So the chances of 2 similar ones being within
>> the same strech of road is pretty small to start with - then you've
>> got the same car and colour? Must be near impossible!
>
>Far from it. If you drive a 1934 green and yellow somthingorother, than
>maybe - but if you drive a white Escort? Which was bought from a local
>large dealer? Which would have the same last three letters on many cars?
>And might have licensed several similar Escorts one after the other?
>Many companies also have fleets of cars with very similar numbers -
>and I can certainly see two white vans from the same company going one
>after the other on the same road.
OK - point taken - the chances are higher than I thought.
They are not astronomically impossibly unlikely to happen. Just very
very unlikely to happen - is anyone actually worried about the
situation described?
David Binderman
> > Let them go. That's their business, not mine.
>
> could borrow you to show off to the neighbours?
Go on then.
Do you have any beer at these events or is it just national minimum wage
?
Unless Mr & Mrs Hitler live next door.
Regards
dcb
Mark Abraham
>1 April 1999 HO type approval was granted for the SVDD
I never believe anything that happens on that day !! :-]
Peter Smithson
Platypuss
Smithson) wrote:
>>OK, say for example you drive a blue vectra(why?) and the system reads
>>the number plate P632NOP. At the next bridge it reads the number plate
>>of another blue vectra P633MOP. It calculates that P632MOP was speeding
>>sends off the NIP, in reality the poor guy in P633MOP was innocent and
>>just happened to be passing the bridge. Of course P632NOP is laughing
>>from ear to ear.
>
>What are the chances of that? There's 20 million people with licences
>in this country - there must be a similar number of vehicles with
>unique number plates. So the chances of 2 similar ones being within
>the same strech of road is pretty small to start with - then you've
>got the same car and colour? Must be near impossible! Won't the
>system figure something is wrong when it get's 2 P633MOPS go past?
Our "pool" cars at work are all identical silver V40 Volvo estates
with VRMs numbered sequentially:
x 940 xxx to x 949 xxx
Therefore it is more likely than you think to have 2 or more very
similar cars on the same stretch of road.
--
Pete Langdale
At the moment, the net is mostly made up of educated
individuals. What will happen when anyone can login?
J.C. Herz 1994
Graham Wilson
<JNu...@AC30.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Actually, dealers "stock" registration numbers issued to them by their local
>DVLC office and get plates made up ready so that they can register new
>vehicles without a trip to the office - just telling the DVLC afterwards (by
>post).
When I purchased a new Daewoo the staff in the showroom gave me a list
of registration numbers and I decided on the one that I liked the
most.
They were issued with blocks of numbers. One block was something like
X880 XXX through to X998XXX.
Graham
Graham Wilson
>Higher than you might think. You're assuming that cars are randomly mixed,
>whereas it is not uncommon to see "convoys" of identical cars with successive
>number plates... I assume they are being delivered.
Some friends of mine who have more money than sense regularly change
their cars every six months. The Fiat dealer always makes sure that
the two new vehicles have consecutive number plates.
Simon Atkinson
On 7/23/99, 1:33:33 AM, s...@windfalls.u-net.com (Windy) wrote
regarding Re: New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20:
> On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:42:52 GMT, Simon Atkinson
> <$im...@raunds.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >What a marvellously well rounded individual you are. I wonder if we
> >could borrow you to show off to the neighbours?
> Simes, my darling. *You* are the most beautifully
> rounded person *I* have ever met.
You can feck /right/ off.
Simon Atkinson
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 7/23/99, 8:21:32 PM, David Binderman <d...@pncl.co.uk> wrote regarding
Re: New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20:
> Ich schriebe:
> > > Let them go. That's their business, not mine.
> >
> > What a marvellously well rounded individual you are. I wonder if we
> > could borrow you to show off to the neighbours?
> Go on then.
> Do you have any beer at these events or is it just national minimum
wage
Minimum wage only I'm afraid. Health & safety rules wont allow beer.
> Unless Mr & Mrs Hitler live next door.
Ruth and Philip Himler...
--
Simes the employer
Danny Halamish
>
> OK - point taken - the chances are higher than I thought.
>
> They are not astronomically impossibly unlikely to happen. Just very
> very unlikely to happen - is anyone actually worried about the
> situation described?
Yes: Me.
I am worried about two things:
First, the principle that you can be found guilty simply because of a
computer's say-so: I program computers for a living, and I know only
too well how far from true is the assumption that "computers never make
mistakes"...
Second, I don't know if the rumours of those cameras are true or not,
but I have little doubt that such devices will be used sooner or later.
To me this is a big concern: For the first time in history, technology
has advanced to the point where the government can spy on all the people
all the time. And I ask those of you that think that speed cameras are a
good thing to consider this: Today these cameras are used for something
you like; tomorrow similar cameras will be used for something you do not
like. What will you do then? The principle would have been established -
and personal freedom gone.
Danny
d...@pixelfusion.com
YumYumGimmeSome
Danny Halamish <d...@pixelfusion.com> wrote in message
news:379C5D6D...@pixelfusion.com...
> like. What will you do then? The principle would have been established -
> and personal freedom gone.
Already a-coming. - I live and work in London, and I can say that as soon as
I enter Westferry Circus every morning I'm recorded all the way to work and
in work.
Who asked ME if they could record my daily routine??
ISTR a slot on CNN a while back looking into an estate up North somewhere,
and basically there will be 1 camera for every 100 persons by the year 2000!
The CNN report was shocked that Britain was this far advanced so soon, and
they pointed the arguement that it's not to protect anyone but to keep the
residents under watch - a public prison if you like.
Well that's what happens when you have NO rights (speech (speakers corner
being changed), to gather, to party), a mere subject to a
Monarchy and Parliament wholly out of touch with the 20th and 21st Centrury.
Then again Brits are a spineless bunch of wankers at best and wouldn't know
how to fight for their rights, nor would most of 'em care really, the
minitory rule in the UK.
The French Truck drivers have said they don't
understand why the UK truckers have taken so long to start talking about
blockades, the French would have done this at the start, none of this
namby-pamby
crap in Park Lane. Oohh look we blocked ONE lane of traffic, woo-hoo, like
that's gonna scare anyone!
--
jas
Windy
<$im...@raunds.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>On 7/23/99, 1:33:33 AM, s...@windfalls.u-net.com (Windy) wrote
>regarding Re: New Type of Speed Cameras on M1 & M20:
>>
>> Simes, my darling. *You* are the most beautifully
>> rounded person *I* have ever met.
>
>You can feck /right/ off.
*happy smile*