Bendy bus driving licenses

[spud-u-d...@potato.field]

Just curioue - can bendy buses be driven on a 'D' license or because they're
articulated do they require a D+E?

--
Spud

[PJK]

It may vary in some European countries but in the UK a D license is
sufficient.

Peter.

[Adrian]

On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 12:24:00 +0100, PJK wrote:

>> Just curioue - can bendy buses be driven on a 'D' license or because
>> they're articulated do they require a D+E?

> It may vary in some European countries but in the UK a D license is
> sufficient.

Page 7 of this - http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/
dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_10013774.pdf

seems to be fairly authoritative that it's D rather than D+E.

At a guess, that'd be because the bendy is one vehicle, rather than a
vehicle and separate trailer? The rear portion isn't removable at all.

[Adrian]

On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 12:24:00 +0100, PJK wrote:

>> Just curioue - can bendy buses be driven on a 'D' license or because
>> they're articulated do they require a D+E?

> It may vary in some European countries but in the UK a D license is
> sufficient.

[Adrian]

On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 12:24:00 +0100, PJK wrote:

>> Just curioue - can bendy buses be driven on a 'D' license or because
>> they're articulated do they require a D+E?

> It may vary in some European countries but in the UK a D license is
> sufficient.

[John Williamson]

And in the majority of those that I've seen, that's where the power unit
is, so is the front part the "trailer"?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[NY]

"Adrian" <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ksj5vs$5nf$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

It's weird that a licence for driving a fixed 4-wheel bus is sufficient to
drive a much longer six-wheeled and articulated vehicle. Whether it's
permanently coupled or where the engine/drivewheels are seems to be
irrelevant compared with the one overriding factor: that it's articulated
with all the extra problems that this causes with reversing and with judging
where the extra back axle will go when turning tight corners. I'm always
amazed at the drivers of the York Park and Ride bus from Rawcliffe Bar to
National Railway Museum which goes through very narrow Victorian
terrace-housed streets with 90 degree turns and parked cars.

But then it's amazing that on a normal car driving licence you can tow a
caravan or trailer (or could when my parents had a caravan in the
1960s/70s - things may have changed since then) without even the requirement
to have any extra training (even if not officially certified/tested) on how
to reverse and manoeuvre an articulated vehicle. I wouldn't want to try it
without a lot of tuition and practice before being unleashed on the road.

[Clive George]

On 22/07/2013 13:27, NY wrote:

> But then it's amazing that on a normal car driving licence you can tow a
> caravan or trailer (or could when my parents had a caravan in the
> 1960s/70s - things may have changed since then) without even the
> requirement to have any extra training (even if not officially
> certified/tested) on how to reverse and manoeuvre an articulated
> vehicle. I wouldn't want to try it without a lot of tuition and practice
> before being unleashed on the road.

Do I guess right that you've not tried it?

Like normal driving, some people can do it fairly easily, some people
struggle. I played with a trailer for a few minutes as a kid on my
parents drive, and watched my father driving with one. When I got one in
a hurry for a drive to Austria, I hooked it up and drove off. I knew the
theory, and that worked. I'd probably practice a bit more with a
caravan, but wouldn't seek tuition - it's not _that_ hard.

[ne...@the.shed]

Any idiot can drive forwards with a trailer. Its the reversing that sorts the
wheat from the chaff especially around a corner.

NJR

[ne...@the.shed]

I sawa lithuanian registered 3 axle double deck coach on the M25 yesterday
towing a huge - as in the same height as the bus - 2 axle trailer. God knows
how long the whole thing was but it was certainly the length of an HGV.

NJR

[PJK]

And for that you would need a D + E licence.

peter.

[NY]

"Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Kd-dnQL1i461rHDM...@brightview.co.uk...

I certainly have tried it. I went on a training course organised by the IAM
which included skid pan, towing (especially reversing) and a few other
things. I had no problem on the skid pan - steering into the skid and
gradually reducing power came naturally.

But I simply could not get the hang of reversing with a trailer - I couldn't
even manage to reverse in a straight line and succeeded in jacknifing the
trailer to one side or the other with monotonous regularity. I know the
theory very well: steer in the wrong direction until the trailer is pointing
where you want it to go, then straighten up and/or steer in the correct
direction and "the trailer will do what you want" - oh no it won't when I'm
at the wheel :-( Half the battle is not being able to see what you are
doing once the trailer has started to turn, because one side is hidden
because it's turned away from the door mirror and the other side is
invisible once the back of the trailer has disappeared out of the mirror and
all you can see is the side wall of the caravan in that mirror.

It was getting a bit embarrassing: I was monopolising all the tutor's time
as he tried to tech me the basics, preventing him teaching everyone else the
more advanced stuff. Maybe if I'd persisted for a *lot* longer and practised
a lot more times, I would have eventually got the hang of it.

If only cars had another hitch on the front for reversing the caravan while
you are looking forwards out of the front windscreen and have a
near-180-degree view, rather than having to do everything in a mirror and
with a very restricted view. :-)

[Tim+]

I would say that reversing a short trailer using mirrors is very tricky
unless the trailer is wide enough to see in the mirrors. Even then not
easy. Longer trailers (like caravans) are much much easier.

Tim

[Nightjar]

On 22/07/2013 18:01, NY wrote:
...

> If only cars had another hitch on the front for reversing the caravan
> while you are looking forwards out of the front windscreen and have a
> near-180-degree view, rather than having to do everything in a mirror
> and with a very restricted view. :-)

http://www.watling-towbars.co.uk/front_towbars.html
http://www.westerntowing.co.uk/acatalog/Front_Push_Towbars.html

Colin Bignell

[Nick Finnigan]

On 22/07/2013 18:01, NY wrote:
>

> "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Kd-dnQL1i461rHDM...@brightview.co.uk...
>> On 22/07/2013 13:27, NY wrote:
>>
>>> But then it's amazing that on a normal car driving licence you can tow a
>>> caravan or trailer (or could when my parents had a caravan in the
>>> 1960s/70s - things may have changed since then) without even the
>>> requirement to have any extra training (even if not officially
>>> certified/tested) on how to reverse and manoeuvre an articulated
>>> vehicle. I wouldn't want to try it without a lot of tuition and practice
>>> before being unleashed on the road.

Some people can do it fairly easily; there is no benefit in making them
have a lot of tuition.

>> Like normal driving, some people can do it fairly easily, some people
>> struggle.

> But I simply could not get the hang of reversing with a trailer - I

Some people struggle, and almost all of the strugglers realize they could
do with some tuition.

> If only cars had another hitch on the front for reversing the caravan while
> you are looking forwards out of the front windscreen and have a
> near-180-degree view, rather than having to do everything in a mirror and
> with a very restricted view. :-)

Do you have restricted neck movement?

[John Williamson]

David Hough wrote:

> John Williamson wrote:
>> And in the majority of those that I've seen, that's where the power unit
>> is, so is the front part the "trailer"?
>>

> Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?
>
Yup. I'm told it makes the handling on motorways "interesting", as
you've got a few tonnes of metal hanging off the back of the rear
section behind the rear axle.

[ne...@the.shed]

On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:27:19 +0100
Tim+ <timdow...@nospampleaseyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>I would say that reversing a short trailer using mirrors is very tricky
>unless the trailer is wide enough to see in the mirrors. Even then not
>easy. Longer trailers (like caravans) are much much easier.

Agreed. Reversing a short narrow trailer is virtually impossible for any
reasonable distance since you just can't see what the damn thing is doing until
its way out of line.

NJR

[ne...@the.shed]

I imagine there must be some sort of anti oscillation mechanism built into
the linkage between the 2 sections otherwise I could imagine it rapidly
going out of control at high speed on a bumpy road.

NJR

[John Williamson]

It's not a simple linkage, as it has to cope with twisting as well as
rotary and bending forces, and they are damped in all three planes. It
also has to carry air and elactrical linkages without trapping them.

[ne...@the.shed]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:35:33 +0100

The only difference between that and what happens on an HGV I presume is the
damping. I wonder if its active or passive? If its active and fails the driver
could be in for a fun time.

NJR

[John Williamson]

The damping is passive, as it is in the suspension. They do, in fact,
use some of the same components.

On an articulated lorry, the force is applied from the front portion as
a pull, a hint is that the front bit of an articulated lorry is called
the "tractor" (From the latin for "to pull"). They are inherently a lot
more stable than the bendybus situation, where the motive force is
applied by pushing.

[ne...@the.shed]

Thanks for the heads up , I always thought there were little men at the back
of the trailer pushing it Fred Flintstone style through the floor and the
"driver" was just the lookout. Glad thats been cleared up.

>more stable than the bendybus situation, where the motive force is
>applied by pushing.

No shit. Perhaps thats why I mentioned anti oscillation mechanisms in the
first place.

NJR

[stephen]

On Tuesday, 23 July 2013 11:19:39 UTC+1, John Williamson wrote:

They are inherently a lot more stable than the bendybus situation, where the motive force is applied by pushing. -- Tciao for Now! John.

Most but not all, Stagecoach still un a few of the earlier style mid-engined artic coaches.

[John Williamson]

Could've sworn I wrote earlier that most (Implying not all) of the ones
that I've seen had rear engines.

Hey, ho....

[John Williamson]

ne...@the.shed wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:19:39 +0100
> John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On an articulated lorry, the force is applied from the front portion as
>> a pull, a hint is that the front bit of an articulated lorry is called
>> the "tractor" (From the latin for "to pull"). They are inherently a lot
>
> Thanks for the heads up , I always thought there were little men at the back
> of the trailer pushing it Fred Flintstone style through the floor and the
> "driver" was just the lookout. Glad thats been cleared up.
>

Well, that's why I explained that HGVs pull, while most buses push. You
seemed to be unclear about the differences.

I'm glad that you are now aware that artic tractor units pull and that
bendybuses with the engine at the back are being pushed along.

[Tim+]

Like this perhaps?

http://youtu.be/G283c3DAC3c

Tim

[John Williamson]

Not a vehicle failure, there was a patch of black ice inside the tunnel
just before the vehicle passed the camera. The driver did a good job not
to crash it.There are other videos from the same camera on Youtube
showing accidents at that spot.

[Adrian]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:34:04 +0100, John Williamson wrote:

>> Like this perhaps?
>>
>> http://youtu.be/G283c3DAC3c

> Not a vehicle failure, there was a patch of black ice inside the tunnel
> just before the vehicle passed the camera. The driver did a good job not
> to crash it.There are other videos from the same camera on Youtube
> showing accidents at that spot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefortovo_Tunnel

But I rather suspect the driver was lucky, rather than good. The
amplitude seemed to be increasing until the rear corner bounced off the
wall, which just happened to knock it straight.

Either way, I don't think I'd have wanted to be in it...

[ne...@the.shed]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 19:19:17 +0100

Don't be a fucking dick all your life.

NJR

[ne...@the.shed]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:34:04 +0100
John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Tim+ wrote:
>> http://youtu.be/G283c3DAC3c
>>
>Not a vehicle failure, there was a patch of black ice inside the tunnel
>just before the vehicle passed the camera. The driver did a good job not
>to crash it.There are other videos from the same camera on Youtube
>showing accidents at that spot.

So thats not an uncontrolled oscillation then? Pray tell us mortals whats
going on in that case.

Oh FYI (because you've obviously a bit clueless) east european bendy buses
tend to have the engine at the front so this tail wagging is *without* a
1 ton engine helping it along.

NJR

[John Williamson]

You obviously didn't notice the cooling louvres surrounding the engine
bay at the rear of this particular bus, then. Specsavers do a good deal
on glasses, or so I'm told.

Just pause the video slightly after the bus enters the picture, and they
are clearly visible to those that use their eyes.

[John Williamson]

<Adds irony to the long list of things that ne...@the.shed doesn't get>

[ne...@the.shed]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:44:18 +0100

John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>ne...@the.shed wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:34:04 +0100
>> John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> Tim+ wrote:
>>>> http://youtu.be/G283c3DAC3c
>>>>
>>> Not a vehicle failure, there was a patch of black ice inside the tunnel
>>> just before the vehicle passed the camera. The driver did a good job not
>>> to crash it.There are other videos from the same camera on Youtube
>>> showing accidents at that spot.
>>
>> So thats not an uncontrolled oscillation then? Pray tell us mortals whats
>> going on in that case.
>>
>> Oh FYI (because you've obviously a bit clueless) east european bendy buses
>> tend to have the engine at the front so this tail wagging is *without* a
>> 1 ton engine helping it along.
>>
>You obviously didn't notice the cooling louvres surrounding the engine
>bay at the rear of this particular bus, then. Specsavers do a good deal
>on glasses, or so I'm told.

Maybe, its hard to tell TBH. So is it an uncontrolled oscillation or not? A
yes or no will suffice.

NJR

[ne...@the.shed]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:45:28 +0100

Like I said, don't be a fucking dick all your life though it seems that
obviously isn't going to apply today is it. But then you've been caught out
with a video clearly demonstrating something you implied wouldn't happen so
I guess you're having to desperately save face in whichever way possible.

NJR

[Scion]

neil put finger to keyboard:

I'd say it was. On a more important issue, I would hope that the designers
will in future make bendy buses that oscillate like that make some sort of
accordion music at the same time.

[ne...@the.shed]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:05:50 +0000 (UTC)
Scion <a...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>neil put finger to keyboard:

>> Maybe, its hard to tell TBH. So is it an uncontrolled oscillation or
>> not? A yes or no will suffice.
>>
>> NJR
>
>I'd say it was. On a more important issue, I would hope that the designers
>will in future make bendy buses that oscillate like that make some sort of
>accordion music at the same time.

LOL :o)

NJR

[John Williamson]

ne...@the.shed wrote:
> Like I said, don't be a fucking dick all your life though it seems that
> obviously isn't going to apply today is it. But then you've been caught out
> with a video clearly demonstrating something you implied wouldn't happen so
> I guess you're having to desperately save face in whichever way possible.
>

And where did I imply that bendybuses don't bend in the middle, and
where did I say that under no circumstances can they suffer such
inconceivable road conditions?

I have not been "caught out" by the video, as under conditions outside
those envisaged by the designers all sorts of strange things happen.
I've seen this particular video a few times when people link to it, and
it's known that the bus driver has been caught out by black ice on the
tunnel floor. If there's insufficient friction between the tyres and the
road, then no amount of damping fitted to the vehicle is going to stop
the behaviour shown by the bus in the video. It would have been a very
similar result with a rigid bus, except for the bending in the middle.

The tunnel, incidentally, is known by the locals at "The tunnel of
death" for a good resaon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x_qXAsjMoI

Two minutes of cars, lorries and buses crashing in the same tunnel,
including the bendy bus. The footage is allegedly all from the same day.

I see your knowledge of this subject is almost as comprehensive as your
knowledge of the rules relating to showmen's vehicles and the reasons
for them.

[ne...@the.shed]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:06:37 +0100
John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>ne...@the.shed wrote:
>> Like I said, don't be a fucking dick all your life though it seems that
>> obviously isn't going to apply today is it. But then you've been caught out
>> with a video clearly demonstrating something you implied wouldn't happen so
>> I guess you're having to desperately save face in whichever way possible.
>>
>And where did I imply that bendybuses don't bend in the middle, and

Could that straw man be any more obvious if it was 30 foot high in a field
being burnt by locals with Christopher Lee nearby?

>where did I say that under no circumstances can they suffer such
>inconceivable road conditions?

You implied it with your desperately feeble sarcasm when I mentioned it.

>the behaviour shown by the bus in the video. It would have been a very
>similar result with a rigid bus, except for the bending in the middle.

Thats a bit like saying a dumper truck could jacknife - if it bent in the
middle. You muppet.

>Two minutes of cars, lorries and buses crashing in the same tunnel,
>including the bendy bus. The footage is allegedly all from the same day.

Its in russia - they can't drive for shit anyway.

>I see your knowledge of this subject is almost as comprehensive as your
>knowledge of the rules relating to showmen's vehicles and the reasons
>for them.

You'll have to excuse me for not being up on those particular rules. I'm afraid
its been a while since I ran a circus. Conversely you seem to be starring in
one right now as Knobend the Clown.

NJR

[John Williamson]

ne...@the.shed wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:06:37 +0100
> John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> where did I say that under no circumstances can they suffer such
>> inconceivable road conditions?
>
> You implied it with your desperately feeble sarcasm when I mentioned it.
>

So I didn't say it, and you're making stuff up. Thank you for admitting it.

>> the behaviour shown by the bus in the video. It would have been a very
>> similar result with a rigid bus, except for the bending in the middle.
>
> Thats a bit like saying a dumper truck could jacknife - if it bent in the
> middle. You muppet.
>

Some of them do. It's how they steer.

>> Two minutes of cars, lorries and buses crashing in the same tunnel,
>> including the bendy bus. The footage is allegedly all from the same day.
>
> Its in russia - they can't drive for shit anyway.
>

I daresay the average is about as good as the UK or Belgium.

>> I see your knowledge of this subject is almost as comprehensive as your
>> knowledge of the rules relating to showmen's vehicles and the reasons
>> for them.
>
> You'll have to excuse me for not being up on those particular rules. I'm afraid
> its been a while since I ran a circus. Conversely you seem to be starring in
> one right now as Knobend the Clown.
>

Even after they were explained to you in great detail you still don't
know anything about them.

[ne...@the.shed]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:04:40 +0100

John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>ne...@the.shed wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 13:06:37 +0100
>> John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> where did I say that under no circumstances can they suffer such
>>> inconceivable road conditions?
>>
>> You implied it with your desperately feeble sarcasm when I mentioned it.
>>
>So I didn't say it, and you're making stuff up. Thank you for admitting it.

Sorry, I was obviously assuming too much intelligence on your part. So your
sarcasm was apropos of what then? Just vacuous nothing like the inside of your
head?

>Some of them do. It's how they steer.

Not the ones on public roads you imbecile and those linkages are powered and
wouldn't oscillate anyway unless there'd been a major hydraulic or control
failure.

Though I suspect you might need a dumper truck soon to cart away all the
soil from that huge hole you're currently digging for yourself.

>> Its in russia - they can't drive for shit anyway.
>>
>I daresay the average is about as good as the UK or Belgium.

You daresay wrong - i've been there and the standard of driving is appalling.
Probably only the indians are worse.

>> its been a while since I ran a circus. Conversely you seem to be starring in
>> one right now as Knobend the Clown.
>>
>Even after they were explained to you in great detail you still don't
>know anything about them.

Clowns? Why not fills us in you being an obvious expert.

NJR

[John Williamson]

ne...@the.shed wrote:
Nothing worth reading.

[ne...@the.shed]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:24:00 +0100
John Williamson <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>ne...@the.shed wrote:
>Nothing worth reading.

Oh dear. Can't argue your way out of a paper bag? Shame. Keep trying.

NJR

[Adrian]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:34:50 +0000, neil wrote:

>>> Oh FYI (because you've obviously a bit clueless) east european bendy
>>> buses tend to have the engine at the front so this tail wagging is
>>> *without* a 1 ton engine helping it along.

>>You obviously didn't notice the cooling louvres surrounding the engine
>>bay at the rear of this particular bus, then. Specsavers do a good deal
>>on glasses, or so I'm told.

> Maybe, its hard to tell TBH.

No, it's really quite straightforward. The engine cover even flaps open
at one point in the video.

> So is it an uncontrolled oscillation or not? A yes or no will suffice.

It's difficult to tell. Given the conditions, it's eminently possible
that that IS controlled. Just have a look at some of the other vids of
that tunnel.

[John Williamson]

And don't forget that damping is to reduce and control oscillation, not
eliminate it. The second swing is smaller than the first, and so on.
This is also visible in the video.

Then again, Neil has the same attitude as the poster formerly known as
Lootenant Scott. Digs himself a hole and keeps going.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Tim+ wrote on 22/07/2013 :
> "NY" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:Kd-dnQL1i461rHDM...@brightview.co.uk...
>>> On 22/07/2013 13:27, NY wrote:
>>>
>>>> But then it's amazing that on a normal car driving licence you can tow a
>>>> caravan or trailer (or could when my parents had a caravan in the
>>>> 1960s/70s - things may have changed since then) without even the
>>>> requirement to have any extra training (even if not officially
>>>> certified/tested) on how to reverse and manoeuvre an articulated
>>>> vehicle. I wouldn't want to try it without a lot of tuition and practice
>>>> before being unleashed on the road.
>>>
>>> Do I guess right that you've not tried it?
>>>
>>> Like normal driving, some people can do it fairly easily, some people >
>>> struggle. I played with a trailer for a few minutes as a kid on my
>>> parents > drive, and watched my father driving with one. When I got one
>>> in a hurry > for a drive to Austria, I hooked it up and drove off. I
>>> knew the theory, > and that worked. I'd probably practice a bit more
>>> with a caravan, but > wouldn't seek tuition - it's not _that_ hard.
>>
>> I certainly have tried it. I went on a training course organised by the
>> IAM which included skid pan, towing (especially reversing) and a few
>> other things. I had no problem on the skid pan - steering into the skid
>> and gradually reducing power came naturally.
>>
>> But I simply could not get the hang of reversing with a trailer - I
>> couldn't even manage to reverse in a straight line and succeeded in
>> jacknifing the trailer to one side or the other with monotonous
>> regularity. I know the theory very well: steer in the wrong direction
>> until the trailer is pointing where you want it to go, then straighten up
>> and/or steer in the correct direction and "the trailer will do what you
>> want" - oh no it won't when I'm at the wheel :-( Half the battle is not
>> being able to see what you are doing once the trailer has started to
>> turn, because one side is hidden because it's turned away from the door
>> mirror and the other side is invisible once the back of the trailer has
>> disappeared out of the mirror and all you can see is the side wall of the
>> caravan in that mirror.
>>
>> It was getting a bit embarrassing: I was monopolising all the tutor's
>> time as he tried to tech me the basics, preventing him teaching everyone
>> else the more advanced stuff. Maybe if I'd persisted for a *lot* longer
>> and practised a lot more times, I would have eventually got the hang of it.
>>
>> If only cars had another hitch on the front for reversing the caravan
>> while you are looking forwards out of the front windscreen and have a
>> near-180-degree view, rather than having to do everything in a mirror and
>> with a very restricted view. :-)
>
> I would say that reversing a short trailer using mirrors is very tricky
> unless the trailer is wide enough to see in the mirrors. Even then not
> easy. Longer trailers (like caravans) are much much easier.
>
> Tim

The longer the trailer is in proprtion to the tug, the easier it is to
reverse them because they react much more slowly. Ignoring the size, a
caravan is much harder to reverse, than an artic.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[Tarcap]

"Tim+" wrote in message
news:1414449422396217541.406149timdo...@news.eternal-september.org...

Spot on. In fact, generally speaking the further away the trailer's axle is
from the tow hitch, the easier it is to reverse. With these small Halfords
type garden rubbish trailers, it is very easy to cock reversing up, with
only very small movements of the steering wheel needed.

[Roger Mills]

On 15/10/2013 17:34, Tarcap wrote:
>
>
> "Tim+" wrote in message
> news:1414449422396217541.406149timdo...@news.eternal-september.org...
>

>

> I would say that reversing a short trailer using mirrors is very tricky
> unless the trailer is wide enough to see in the mirrors. Even then not
> easy. Longer trailers (like caravans) are much much easier.
>
> Tim
>
> Spot on. In fact, generally speaking the further away the trailer's axle
> is from the tow hitch, the easier it is to reverse. With these small
> Halfords type garden rubbish trailers, it is very easy to cock reversing
> up, with only very small movements of the steering wheel needed.

Absolutely right! A few years ago I attempted to explain this
mathematically. See http://www.mills37.plus.com/Jack-knife.pdf if you're
interested.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[boris hillz]

buy drivers license now using the info below

Email : wanji.nicolas @ yandex . com
WhatsApp +55 4797006749
Telegram... channel https://t.me/authenticbanknotesonly
TELEGRAM : @FASTHOOKUP102

[Jacob banks]

Email : wanji.nicolas @ yandex . com
WhatsApp + 55 4797006749

Telegram channel : https://t.me/+Fn4_mpaQDC40N2Zh
Telegram username : @localplug2
TEXT : + 1 818 650 0309

[boris hillz]

Contact us for more information using the information below:

Email : wanji.nicolas @ yandex . com
WhatsApp + 55 4797006749
Telegram channel : https://t.me/+Fn4_mpaQDC40N2Zh

Telegram username : @localplug2 OR + 1 818 650 0309

TEXT : + 1 818 650 0309

buy fake bills
fake bills amazon
fake dollar bills for sale
where can i buy fake 100 dollar bills
where can i buy fake dollar bills
what happens if you get a fake bill
can change machines detect fake bills
fake bills vs real bills
buy fake and real passport id cards drivers license with fake Counterfeit

Buy IELTS, IDP TOEFL, GMAT, ESOL, DEGREE, DIPLOMAT

Buy Registered Passports,Drivers license,IELTS & TOEFL, ESOL Certificates Without Attending The Exam

BUY PASSPORTS,DRIVERS LICENSES,ID CARDS,BIRTH CERTIFICATES,VISAS,SSN,MARRIA=
GE CERTIFICATES,DIVORCE PAPERS,US GREEN CARD

BUY PASSPORTS,DRIVERS LICENSES,ID CARDS,BIRTH CERTIFICATES,VISAS,SSN,MARRIA=
GE CERTIFICATES,DIVORCE PAPERS,US GREEN CARD

Buy IELTS, IDP TOEFL, GMAT, ESOL, DEGREE, DIPLOMAS
We deal and specialize in helping you to get registered TOEFL, IELTS, IDP, = ESOL, GMAT CELTA/DELTA, DEGREE, DIPLOMAS & other English Language Certifica= tes. We produce TOEFL & IELTS, ESOL, and CELTA/DELTA, DEGREE, DIPLOMAS Engl= ish Language for you with ease.

Email : wanji.nicolas @ yandex . com

WhatsApp +55 4797006749
Telegram channel : https://t.me/+Fn4_mpaQDC40N2Zh
Telegram username : @localplug2 OR + 1 818 650 0309

TEXT : + 1 818 650 0309

where to buy fake 100 dollar bills
With over a billion of our products circulating around the world. We offer only original high-quality counterfeit currency NOTES. We ship worldwide. We also print and sell Grade A banknotes of over 52 currencies in the world. Here is your chance to be a millionaire. Our money is perfectly reproduced, Indistinguishable to the eye and to the touch. We are sending in various sizes, packed and hidden. All our notes carry all the holograms and water marks and pass the light detector test. We will deliver the money directly to your home without the interference of customs.



We have a Huge quantity ready in stock. EUROS, DOLLARS, POUNDS, AND NOVELTY DOCUMENTS LIKE PASSPORTS, ID CARDS, GREEN CARDS, AND DRIVER'S LICENSES.

Contact us for more information using the information below:

Email : wanji.nicolas @ yandex . com

WhatsApp +55 4797006749
Telegram channel : https://t.me/+Fn4_mpaQDC40N2Zh
Telegram username : @localplug2 OR + 1 818 650 0309

TEXT : + 1 818 650 0309

keywords:
victorian p-plate licence
where to buy fake ids
where to buy fake documents
where to buy fake passports
where to buy fake drivers licence
fake USA(United States) passports,
fake Australian passports,
fake Belgium passports,
fake Brazilian(Brazil) passports,
fake Canadian(Canada) passports,
fake Finnish(Finland) passports,
fake French(France) passports,
fake German(Germany) passports,
fake Dutch(Netherland/Holland) passports,
fake Israel passports,
fake UK(United Kingdom) passports,
fake Spanish(Spain) passports,
fake Mexican(Mexico) passports,
fake South African passports.
fake Australian driver licenses,
fake Canadian driver licenses,
fake French(France) driver licenses,
fake Dutch(Netherland/Holland) driving licenses,
fake German(Germany) driving licenses,

[Jacob banks]

Valid Market Update Fresh cc

HOT 2021 Sell info fullz SSN + Dob + DL - Info Fullz Company
Sell CVV, Info fullz SSN + Dob + DL Fresh New 100%
CLONE CARD , BANK LOGIN
_________Contact Us_________

TELEGRAM / Signal : +1 818 650 - 0309
WHATSAPP : +1 918 383 - 2450
TELEGRAM CHANNEL : https://t.me/+Fn4_mpaQDC40N2Zh

Email : wanji.nicolas @ yandex . com

TEXT : +1 818 650 - 0309

Sell Pros + Driving license Info Fullz Any State : New York , California, Alabama, Arizona , California , Colorado , Florida , Georgia , Hawaii, Illinois , Indiana, Kansas, Massachusetts, Michigan ..... Any state in USA

Sell Info Fullz Company USA Uk Ca Fresh 2021

* Items for sale :

1. USA Fullz ( DOB + SSN) + DL

2. US CC Random

3. EU Random , EU DOB

4. Other Countries (WorldWide)

5. Cash App (Account or Transfer) FLIP

6. Paypals (Verified, Unverified)

7. Dumps Track 1/2

Dumps with pin quickest way to get rich. Atm withdrawals In Store purchases. All you need is reader writer. I can supply you work no matter where you are.

Usa, Uk, Canada, China, AU , EU

Clone card rates

LOW BALANCE
£200 for balance £3k
£300 for balance £4.5k
£400 for balance £6k
£500for balance £8k

HIGH BALANCE

£2k for balance £20k
£4k for balance £40k
£5k for balance £60k

Text me now and make your orders right away…



❗We have a %100 money back policy . You can opt-out for a refund when you have problems with our cards 💳…. Your feedback is always needed for us to improve upon our services

_________Contact Us_________

TELEGRAM / Signal : +1 818 650 - 0309
WHATSAPP : +1 918 383 - 2450
TELEGRAM CHANNEL : https://t.me/+Fn4_mpaQDC40N2Zh

Email : wanji.nicolas @ yandex . com

TEXT : +1 818 650 - 0309

[Martin Lawrece]

We have a Huge quantity ready in stock. EUROS, DOLLARS, POUNDS, AND NOVELTY DOCUMENTS LIKE PASSPORTS, ID CARDS, GREEN CARDS, AND DRIVER'S LICENSES.

Contact us for more information using the information below:

TELEGRAM / Signal : +1 818 650 - 0309
WHATSAPP : +1 918 383 - 2450
TELEGRAM CHANNEL : https://t.me/+Fn4_mpaQDC40N2Zh
Email : wanji.nicolas @ yandex . com
TEXT : +1 818 650 - 0309

fake UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses,
fake Diplomatic passports,
false USA(United States) passports,
false Australian passports,
false Belgium passports,
false Brazilian(Brazil) passports,
false Canadian(Canada) passports,
false Finnish(Finland) passports,
false French(France) passports,
false German(Germany) passports,
false Dutch(Netherland/Holland) passports,
false Israel passports,
false UK(United Kingdom) passports,
false Spanish(Spain) passports,
false Mexican(Mexico) passports,
false South African passports.
false Australian driver licenses,
false Canadian driver licenses,
false French(France) driver licenses,
false Dutch(Netherland/Holland) driving licenses,
false German(Germany) driving licenses,
false UK(United Kingdom) driving licenses,
false Diplomatic passports,
Camouflage passports,
passport Duplicates,
fake USA(united States) passports for sale,
fake Australian passports for sell,
fake Belgium passports for sell,
fake Brazilian(Brazil) passports for sell,
fake Canadian(Canada) passports for sell,
fake Finnish(Finland) passports for sell,
fake French(France) passports for sell,
fake German(Germany) passports for sell,
fake Dutch(Netherland/Holland) passports for sell,
fake Israel passports for sell,
fake UK(United Kingdom) passports for sell,
fake Spanish(Spain) passports for sell,
fake Mexican(Mexico) passports for sell,
fake South African passports for sell,
fake Australian driver licenses for sell,
fake Canadian driver licenses for sell,
fake Diplomatic passports for sell,
Camouflage passports for sale,
passport Duplicates for sale.
order fake passports,
order false passports,
order novelty passports,
order fake driver license,
order false driver license,
order novelty driver license,
order Diplomatic passports,
obtain fake passports,
obtain false passports,
obtain novelty passports,
obtain fake driving licence,
obtain false driver license,
obtain novelty driver license,
obtain Diplomatic passports,
purchase fake passports,
purchase false passports,
purchase novelty passports,
purchase fake driver license,
purchase false driver license,
purchase novelty driver license,
purchase Diplomatic passports,
sell fake passports,
sell false passports,