Defective speedometer..?
Ivor Jones
[crossposted to uk.legal as someone there might know..!]
Hi All,
I'm a driver for a large bus company in the Midlands and I have on more
than one occasion been expected to drive a bus with a defective (i.e. not
working) speedometer. We operate to UK rules not EU rules and so do not
require tachographs, but I would have thought a speedometer was still a
legal requirement..?
Each time this has happened I have requested that the engineers change the
vehicle, and on most occasions they flatly refuse, saying that as long as
the defective speedo is logged on the vehicle's defect sheet then I am
covered and am ok to drive.
I find this very difficult to believe; surely if I am stopped for speeding
by the police (ok, so it's not all that likely in a large city centre in a
fully loaded double decker, but it *could* happen..!) they are hardly
likely to be impressed when I tell them the speedo is duff..!
I have repeatedly tried to convice my manager that it will be *my* licence
that gets the points, not his, but he remains unmoved and tells me that I
am ok to drive as long as I log the defect.
Surely this can't be true..?
Ivor
Bystander
"Ivor Jones" <this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote in message
news:brvdde$h3b$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
No. Do not drive the vehicle. Make sure that the Union rep is there with
you.
nightjar
"Ivor Jones" <this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote in message
news:brvdde$h3b$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm a driver for a large bus company in the Midlands and I have on more
> than one occasion been expected to drive a bus with a defective (i.e. not
> working) speedometer. We operate to UK rules not EU rules and so do not
> require tachographs, but I would have thought a speedometer was still a
> legal requirement..?
IIRC, it is required under the Road Vehicle (Construction and Use)
Regulations.
> Each time this has happened I have requested that the engineers change the
> vehicle, and on most occasions they flatly refuse, saying that as long as
> the defective speedo is logged on the vehicle's defect sheet then I am
> covered and am ok to drive.
The cab is your workplace within the meaning of the Health and Safety at
Work etc Act. Ask to see the risk assessment that they would have had to
carry out, by law, before coming to the decision that it is acceptable for
you to drive the vehicle without a functioning speedometer.
Colin Bignell
Cicero
"Ivor Jones" <this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote in message
news:brvdde$h3b$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
Go to the police and / or Chief Executive of Transport Authority and / or
local press.
If your manager says it's OK to drive with a defective speedo, somebody
ought to find out what other defects are acceptable in the opinion of your
manager. Bald tyres, worn steering, broken springs etc? One item of poor
maintenance is very likely indicative of other more dangerous shortcomings.
Cic.
Troy Tempest
VOSA, (formally the Vehicle Inspectorate), will allow the vehicle to be used
in service as long as the defect has been logged as such, that the time and
date of first failure have been recorded in the appropriate documents.
The engineers have then to repair/replace the defective speedo within a
"reasonable" time.
Reasonable being the time it takes to acquire or repair the part.
So if you first noted the defect on Monday and by the following Monday it
still wasn't working then you and the Rep could then ask the Engineering
Manager as to why it's not fixed.And take action accordingly.
It may be that the fault/part is difficult to rectify/obtain in which case
you must allow the department to do their job.
Some companies put a sticker on the speedo noting the date it was first
recorded defective and signed by the engineer-in-charge.This then puts a
little more emphasis on the engineers to get it fixed.
Perhaps your Rep could suggest this at the Health and Safety Meeting.
As always in this type of scenario, VOSA's answer is, "it depends."
Neil
"nightjar .uk.com>" <nightjar@<insert_my_surname_here> wrote in message
news:3fe354af$0$391$afc3...@news.easynet.co.uk...
Tigerheart
"Cicero" <shel...@hellfire.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e5JEb.1299$iz7.12...@news-text.cableinet.net...
confidence inspiring
smicker
<neil_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'm afraid the engineers are quite correct in this matter.
>
>VOSA, (formally the Vehicle Inspectorate), will allow the vehicle to be used
>in service as long as the defect has been logged as such, that the time and
>date of first failure have been recorded in the appropriate documents.
Surely the VOSA cannot make laws or change them. If the speedo is not
working then it is against the law to use it even if the VOSA do not
report the matter I cannot believe they have the power to over ride
the law.
smicker
Cdunn53
would not allow/expect anyone to use a bus like that,there is leeway with
atacho to allow u to continue a journey until practicable repair.I dont know if
it is a cause or permit for gafers to allow.
Bob Brenchley.
There is no law which says you have to have a working speedo - just
that you have a way of judging your speed.
However, that said, if they cannot maintain their vehicles well enough
to fix a faulty speedo then I for one would not be driving their
vehicles. As you point out - it would be you that carries the can.
--
Bob.
The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The
distinction is yours to draw...
Jimboindbq
In these days of "Speed Cameras" and "Radar," I would not drive a vehicle with
a defective speedo.
Consult your union rep on this one.
It's your pocket and licence which will take the hit on this one......not the
Chief Engineers or Traffic Managers.
Jim.
Benedict White
smicker wrote:
The problem here is that it is not against the law to drive without a speedo, but
it is against the law to speed.
Further more it would be negligent to drive to fast and cause an accident.
I would argue that in my car, I can tell how fast I am going by the sound of the
engine etc. but I do not drive a different one every day.
I can see the concern.
The risk here is that the driver is unaware of how fast he is going when it could
be critical.
It may well be that in the event of a problem it could be argued that the
employers are either fully or partially negligent. The issue is that argument
would be difficult and expensive.
Kind regards
--
Benedict White
Ivor Jones
"Troy Tempest" <neil_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:brvoio$88m9m$1...@ID-50470.news.uni-berlin.de...
> I'm afraid the engineers are quite correct in this matter.
>
> VOSA, (formally the Vehicle Inspectorate), will allow the vehicle to be
used
> in service as long as the defect has been logged as such, that the time
and
> date of first failure have been recorded in the appropriate documents.
>
> The engineers have then to repair/replace the defective speedo within a
> "reasonable" time.
>
> Reasonable being the time it takes to acquire or repair the part.
So the engineer will accept the penalty points on his licence and pay the
fine, will he..?
Somehow I don't think so.........
Ivor
Ivor Jones
"Jimboindbq" <jimbo...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20031219183444...@mb-m24.aol.com...
The problem is, where do I stand legally if I get stopped..? I for one do
not wish to be the subject of a test case..! Could I refuse to drive the
vehicle and what would be my comeback if I were disciplined/sacked for so
refusing..?
It may well be legal to have a duff speedo but as someone else pointed out
it's not legal to speed, so how do I tell whether I'm speeding or not..? I
thought that's what a speedo was for..!
Thanks for everyone's views, I will be consulting the union rep ASAP.
Ivor
Killie
Try putting a vehicle in for a MOT test with a defective speedo, it
will fail, therefor the driver is driving a vehicle unfit for the
road.
Up here in Scotland this issue has cropped up with the company I work
for, the same story from the bosses "as long as its logged its ok" .
A senior traffic policeman at police HQ was asked what the ruling is.
He said if the driver is driving the vehicle with a defective speedo
then HE is responsible and could be fined. Getting caught doing over
30 mph in a speed camera and saying my speedo was'nt working is not
going to save you a fine.
The employers excuse "its logged so its ok" is not true.
Killie
Drop in and say hello at www.killies.co.uk/forums/index.php
Always something going on at Killies Forums
New members always welcome .
Alex
Mmm. It's happened to me. I kept a copy of the defect sheet for the
bus in question, and I insisted that they change the bus at the
nearest available point (out of town route) If you were stopped a
defective speedo would not be a valid defence, you would have to go
and argue the case in court. You could drive the bus to the terminus,
and then back to the depot, as this would not be unreasonable, but to
continue all day, or take the bus out the next day would be
indefensible.
At the end of the day it's your licence, and you're entitled to
protect it.
Alex
Alex
>> If your manager says it's OK to drive with a defective speedo, somebody
>> ought to find out what other defects are acceptable in the opinion of your
>> manager. Bald tyres, worn steering, broken springs etc? One item of poor
>> maintenance is very likely indicative of other more dangerous
>shortcomings.
>>
>> Cic.
>>
>>
>And you dont use tachos?? So you could drive 24 hours nonstop??Not very
>confidence inspiring
>
No. On PCV services you may operate without a tacho, but you must
adhere to either EU or Domestic driving hours regulations, and if
operating without a tacho you MUST carry a duty board or duty
timetable detailing the running times/routes and driving/break time.
On a scheduled service the duty board is as good as a tacho record.
Alex
tarquinlinbin
<this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote:
>
>[crossposted to uk.legal as someone there might know..!]
>
>Hi All,
>
>I'm a driver for a large bus company in the Midlands and I have on more
>than one occasion been expected to drive a bus with a defective (i.e. not
>working) speedometer. We operate to UK rules not EU rules and so do not
>require tachographs, but I would have thought a speedometer was still a
>legal requirement..?
>
I work for a large global energy company. We used to have our own in
house fleet maintenance but that went years ago in a cost saving
measure. We often fine that vehicles have expired MOT's or the tax
doesnt turn up in time etc etc,i have had a defective speedo and been
asked to drive it.
The bottom line is it is an offence,the driver is guilty,end of story.
Refuse to drive it,the fleet operator is also guilty of an offence
under his fleet operators licence.
no one can absolve or absorb your responsibility.
nightjar
"Troy Tempest" <neil_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:brvoio$88m9m$1...@ID-50470.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> VOSA, (formally the Vehicle Inspectorate), will allow the vehicle to be
used
> in service as long as the defect has been logged as such, that the time
and
> date of first failure have been recorded in the appropriate documents.
That does not alter the fact that, to comply with Health and Safety
legislation, before allowing an employee to use a piece of work equipment
that has a known defect, the employer must have carried out a risk
assessment, to ensure that it is safe to do so. Also, if the speedo is not
working, the odometer probably isn't either. That would mean that it would
probably not be possible to mainatin an accurate log of vehicle mileage,
which is the normal basis for determining the periods between inspections
and services. The employer would, therefore, appear to be unable to prove
that the machinery is being properly maintained in accordance with the
requirements of the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998.
Colin Bignell
Leyland_Leopard
"Tigerheart" <lion_of_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TkKEb.3492204$Id.5...@news.easynews.com...
> >
> And you dont use tachos?? So you could drive 24 hours nonstop??Not very
> confidence inspiring
>
>
in local service on national rules (as the OP said he was), there is no need
to drive on tacho so
long as you are carrying the relevant paperwork (duty rosters for the
present, previous and subequent week, route details and timings, etc).
Ewan C McNab
<nightjar@?.uk.com.invalid> writes
>Also, if the speedo is not
>working, the odometer probably isn't either. That would mean that it would
>probably not be possible to mainatin an accurate log of vehicle mileage,
Most of the buses I've come across have a device on the rear offside
wheel for recording the vehicle mileage so the odo in the cab isn't
used. But of course this may not apply to all bus companies.
And I may be wrong (I'm sure will correct me if I am), but I think
servicing etc is based on a time period rather than mileage for local
service buses.
Ewan.
Pete Baggett
<lion_of_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
|
|<snip>
|> Go to the police and / or Chief Executive of Transport Authority and / or
|> local press.
|>
|> If your manager says it's OK to drive with a defective speedo, somebody
|> ought to find out what other defects are acceptable in the opinion of your
|> manager. Bald tyres, worn steering, broken springs etc? One item of poor
|> maintenance is very likely indicative of other more dangerous
|shortcomings.
|>
|> Cic.
|>
|>
|And you dont use tachos?? So you could drive 24 hours nonstop??Not very
|confidence inspiring
|
No we don't use tachos. We carry duty boards which have details of the
driving times on them. Our hours are controlled as are our breaks and
the duty has to comply with these regulations.
--
Pete Baggett <pe...@wulfrunian.net>
My Web Page:-
www.wulfrunian.net
(Trolleybus page www.under2wires.co.uk)
Benedict White
smicker wrote:
> I must be wrong or the law has changed but I can remember in people
> being charged with having a defective speedo. Perhaps my memory is
> going south.
> smicker
I am not saying my answer is definitive, but if you know of a reference that would be
useful to the OP as it would allow him to completely refuse to drive the vehicle.
I am, as you know, not a lawyer.
Alex
Indeed. A lot of the milometers on ours have gone round so many times
that they've worn out and packed up. Most PSV's have distance
recorders on a rear wheel. It's purely for reference and data
collection, most PSV's are serviced on a time interval basis.
Alex
Ivor Jones
Hmm, as an aside, quite a few of the odometers on our buses don't work,
even if the speedos do. More food for thought methinks..!
Ivor
BConno9983
>"reasonable" time.
>
>Reasonable being the time it takes to acquire or repair the part.
In Translink, the agreement is that the speedo will be repaired within 2 days,
(was 5).
As a matter of interest, if you were driving your car, and the speedo stopped
working, would you park up and not drive it again until you had it fixed. I
don't think so.
smicker
<bene...@NOmyrealboxSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>
>smicker wrote:
>
>> I must be wrong or the law has changed but I can remember in people
>> being charged with having a defective speedo. Perhaps my memory is
>> going south.
>> smicker
>
>I am not saying my answer is definitive, but if you know of a reference that would be
>useful to the OP as it would allow him to completely refuse to drive the vehicle.
The only reference I have is an apparently failing memory.
smicker
Ivor Jones
"BConno9983" <bconn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031220123139...@mb-m06.aol.com...
Well, I would if I had another car to drive..! I was actually right
outside the garage when I reported the defective speedo, it would have
taken an engineer all of 2 minutes to drive out with a replacement bus.
Ivor
Thomas Covenant
OBVIOUSkillies.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:29:25 -0000, "Ivor Jones"
><this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Jimboindbq" <jimbo...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
>>news:20031219183444...@mb-m24.aol.com...
>>> Ivor,
>>>
>>> In these days of "Speed Cameras" and "Radar," I would not drive a
>>> vehicle with a defective speedo.
>>>
>>> Consult your union rep on this one.
>>>
>>> It's your pocket and licence which will take the hit on this
>>> one......not the Chief Engineers or Traffic Managers.
>>
>>The problem is, where do I stand legally if I get stopped..? I for one do
>>not wish to be the subject of a test case..! Could I refuse to drive the
>>vehicle and what would be my comeback if I were disciplined/sacked for so
>>refusing..?
>>
>>It may well be legal to have a duff speedo but as someone else pointed out
>>it's not legal to speed, so how do I tell whether I'm speeding or not..? I
>>thought that's what a speedo was for..!
>>
>>Thanks for everyone's views, I will be consulting the union rep ASAP.
>>
>
>Try putting a vehicle in for a MOT test with a defective speedo, it
>will fail, therefor the driver is driving a vehicle unfit for the
>road.
>Up here in Scotland this issue has cropped up with the company I work
>for, the same story from the bosses "as long as its logged its ok" .
>A senior traffic policeman at police HQ was asked what the ruling is.
>He said if the driver is driving the vehicle with a defective speedo
>then HE is responsible and could be fined. Getting caught doing over
>30 mph in a speed camera and saying my speedo was'nt working is not
>going to save you a fine.
>The employers excuse "its logged so its ok" is not true.
>
<quote from Croners>
THE ROAD VEHICLES (CONSTRUCTION AND USE) REGULATIONS 1986 (SI 1986 No.
1078)
SPEEDOMETERS
These must be fitted to all motor vehicles registered from 1 October
1937.
<snip>
Speedometers must be maintained in good working order at all "material
times" ie when a vehicle is used on a journey unless:
(a) a defect occurs during a journey, or
(b) steps are taken to have the equipment repaired or replaced as
soon as possible. (Regulation 36 and EC Directive 75/443)
A vehicle may be rejected at its annual test if the speedometer is not
fitted, or is inoperative, is not illuminated, it has a missing or
broken dial glass, etc.
The requirement to fit speedometers does not extend to vehicles fitted
with EU approved recording equipment (see under "Tachographs" on page
235–239).
</quote from Croners>
Benedict White
smicker wrote:
> >I am not saying my answer is definitive, but if you know of a reference that would be
> >useful to the OP as it would allow him to completely refuse to drive the vehicle.
>
> The only reference I have is an apparently failing memory.
LOL!
I think we all have one of those. : - )
kind regards
--
Benedict White
nightjar
"Ivor Jones" <this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote in message
news:bs209n$4ks$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
...
> Hmm, as an aside, quite a few of the odometers on our buses don't work,
> even if the speedos do. More food for thought methinks..!
If, as Ewan suggests, time is the industry standard method of determining
when maintenance is required, then it would be irrelevant, although the risk
assessment would still be required. However, I would be concerned about the
quality of maintenance of the fleet if the frequency of failure is as high
as you say.
Colin Bignell
David Farrier
stopped
> working, would you park up and not drive it again until you had it fixed.
I
> don't think so.
That would be for Ivor to decide, and Ivor takes the rap if caught.
When his employer decides, Ivor takes the rap if caught.
Easy really.
I'm sure that it was safe for the "Herald of Free Enterprise" to sail with
its bow doors open.
Well, they did it many times and nothing happened.
Regards
Dave Farrier
BConno9983
>> even if the speedos do. More food for thought methinks..!
>
Of course, the bottom line is how to establish if the speedometer is accurately
registering the actual speed of the vehicle. I had one instance where I glanced
at the tachograph, and was surpised to see I was doing 60 kph. Not unusual,
perhaps, but stopped at traffic lights?
Where I have a problem with our agreement is that it also covers defective
indicators. Now, there is no way I would drive a bus without indicators..
period.
Leyland_Leopard
>
> Where I have a problem with our agreement is that it also covers defective
> indicators. Now, there is no way I would drive a bus without indicators..
> period.
I do remember driving a coach (Tiger with Duple 340 bodywork, if interested)
on which the indicators stopped working whenever you had used the hazards.
The route I was on at the time required two three-point turns (school run)
and I habitually used my hazards whilst carrying out these. Eventually, I
remembered not to do this in 040, but until I did, I ended up with a
fully-loaded coach at the far end of the route from the depot with no
indicators. Hand-signals are all very well, but in a 12 metre coach?
Does wonders for your observation, though!
Troy Tempest
"Leyland_Leopard" <leyland...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bjAFb.662$T21...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
Ah. No indicators are a definite no no.
Driving whilst having no means of clearly indicating your intentions would
incur an immediate prohibition (PG9) and many points on your licence.
Hand signals are NOT considered as clearly indicating.
BConno9983
>on which the indicators stopped working whenever you had used the hazards.
Some of our Tigers have the same problem. You can sometimes fix it by loosening
off the cover of the pull switch for the hazards. It seems that this can
prevent the switch resetting to allow the indicators, if it is screwed down too
tight. This is a well known fix in Citybus.The other one is switch everything
off, and start up again, which is the PSV equivalent of Lily's pink medicine.
mookie89
news:eab8uvchgnk8i41gf...@4ax.com...
I have been following this thread with some interest. I operate a fleet of
public school transport (yellow) buses in the USA. Mind-boggle does not
adequately describe my thoughts on ANY manager that would require a bus
driver to operate a vehicle with a defective speedometer, or any other
safety defect. This is plain craziness. Can you imagine the size of the
law suit when the bus driver crashes, then tells the police management knew
the speedo was out but ordered him/her to drive it anyway? Geesh! On the
contrary, I have had bus drivers who "failed" to inform management of
defective "anything" because they did not want the bus taken out of service
and assigned a spare bus. We promptly discipline the driver for an
infraction like that. Our drivers are ordered to refuse to drive ANY
vehicle that is not up to par. If one clearance light is out, that's one
thing. If a headlight is out, that's another story and they are to refuse
to drive it till the mechanics get it repaired.
Sorry for the rant. There is such a thing as technical compliance with the
law - then quite another for compliance with common sense! That manager
should be sacked. NOW.
Rich
Rich
Billy
Benedict White
mookie89 wrote:
And people criticize American Tort law.
For the record, I think you have it right.
I have not yet seen am American case backed by a legitimate reference to
established facts that I actually have a problem with. And, I regard the USA as
our errant colony!
Well said, it is craziness indeed, the question is however if it is legal or not
in the UK which I am unable to answer.
Kindest regards
--
Benedict White
mookie89
news:bs80mc$alp0s$1...@ID-167621.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Mookie.....You dont work for First Group by any chance...?????
No, I don't. I am a "public" employee.
Rich
krystnors
"Ivor Jones" <this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote in message
news:bs29l0$8en$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Phil
> There is no law which says you have to have a working speedo - just
> that you have a way of judging your speed.
>
> However, that said, if they cannot maintain their vehicles well enough
> to fix a faulty speedo then I for one would not be driving their
> vehicles. As you point out - it would be you that carries the can.
AS will be plain as day to anyone who considers the position a
foreigner here finds himself in with a car only calibrated in KPH (or
indeed me with an early LHD Citroen)
HTH Phil
DAWN TOMALIN
or highways with a defective Speedo, and the vehicle will stay in the
garage/depot until it is repeated. I know of one case where a driver was
stopped by the police and prosecuted for having a defective Speedo, when the
case went to court the driver lost PCV licence and was also fined
"Alex" <nospa...@cbmsys.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aer7uv8v5sflt6s6t...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> If your manager says it's OK to drive with a defective speedo, somebody
> >> ought to find out what other defects are acceptable in the opinion of
your
> >> manager. Bald tyres, worn steering, broken springs etc? One item of
poor
> >> maintenance is very likely indicative of other more dangerous
> >shortcomings.
> >>
> >> Cic.
> >>
> >>
> >And you dont use tachos?? So you could drive 24 hours nonstop??Not very
> >confidence inspiring
> >
>
> adhere to either EU or Domestic driving hours regulations, and if
> operating without a tacho you MUST carry a duty board or duty
> timetable detailing the running times/routes and driving/break time.
> On a scheduled service the duty board is as good as a tacho record.
>
> Alex
John Field
Read your bit about speedo's. L;oad of crap. You are entitled to refuse to
drive a bus with a defective speedo. The engieers can allow you tom drive
it for up to amx of 7 days, but, only provided the replacement is on order.
What about trhese new 20mph zones around schools etc. Tell em f - - k off.
Why not get yopur union involved , ? Or better still get in touch with the
Driving Standards Agency ( Inspectorate dept ) tell em what is goping on,
they WILL be interested/concerned & come down on the company like a ton of
hot s - - t. Do it mate, do not allow management to intimidate you
"Ivor Jones" <this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote in message
>
> [crossposted to uk.legal as someone there might know..!]
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm a driver for a large bus company in the Midlands and I have on more
> than one occasion been expected to drive a bus with a defective (i.e. not
> working) speedometer. We operate to UK rules not EU rules and so do not
> require tachographs, but I would have thought a speedometer was still a
> legal requirement..?
>
> vehicle, and on most occasions they flatly refuse, saying that as long as
> the defective speedo is logged on the vehicle's defect sheet then I am
> covered and am ok to drive.
>
> I find this very difficult to believe; surely if I am stopped for speeding
> by the police (ok, so it's not all that likely in a large city centre in a
> fully loaded double decker, but it *could* happen..!) they are hardly
> likely to be impressed when I tell them the speedo is duff..!
>
> I have repeatedly tried to convice my manager that it will be *my* licence
> that gets the points, not his, but he remains unmoved and tells me that I
> am ok to drive as long as I log the defect.
>
> Surely this can't be true..?
>
> Ivor
>
>
busman645
I work for a big bus company down south and we have exactly the same
problem.
The law as we have found out means as long as the defect is noted by
the engineering department then you can carry on using it.
The wording is "parts are on order" and that is how they can get away
with it. You have the same problem with defective destination blinds
and you can run around with incorrect destinations all day long say
long as they have "parts on order".
The law sucks and should be changed. If your car was defective it
would fail an MOT so why not a bus.
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:44:11 -0000, "Ivor Jones"
<this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote:
Ivor Jones
"busman645" <sea...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:rntc10t1erh7qn1gc...@4ax.com...
> Hi
>
> I work for a big bus company down south and we have exactly the same
> problem.
>
> The law as we have found out means as long as the defect is noted by
> the engineering department then you can carry on using it.
Can you specify exactly which law and where I can look it up, please..?
> The wording is "parts are on order" and that is how they can get away
> with it. You have the same problem with defective destination blinds
> and you can run around with incorrect destinations all day long say
> long as they have "parts on order".
>
> The law sucks and should be changed. If your car was defective it
> would fail an MOT so why not a bus.
Exactly. The problem I have getting over to management is if I *am*
stopped inadvertently speeding it's *my* licence that gets the points and
*me* that gets the fine. The police are hardly likely to be impressed with
"the parts are on order" so God knows what else they could do me for.
Destination blinds are slightly different I think. I may be wrong but
AFAIK there is no *legal* requirement to display a *destination* but a
route number on its own is certainly better than nothing..!
Ivor
Ivor Jones
"DAWN TOMALIN" <dawn.t...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:lh%Mb.6948$OA3.2...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> T&G advice that employees should not take any vehicle on to the public
road
> or highways with a defective Speedo, and the vehicle will stay in the
> garage/depot until it is repeated. I know of one case where a driver was
> stopped by the police and prosecuted for having a defective Speedo, when
the
> case went to court the driver lost PCV licence and was also fined
Any possibility you can give me some info on this please..? If I can find
documentation to back me up I can take it to my management and union.
Email me at ivor at despammed dot com (fill in the dots yourself..!) if
you don't want to post it here.
Ivor
mark sayers
problem should be resolve within 14 days. Regards Mark bus driver
"Ivor Jones" <this.a...@notvalid.inv> wrote in message
news:brvdde$h3b$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
Bystander
> > than one occasion been expected to drive a bus with a defective (i.e.
not
> > working) speedometer. We operate to UK rules not EU rules and so do not
> > require tachographs, but I would have thought a speedometer was still a
> > legal requirement..?
> >
> > Each time this has happened I have requested that the engineers change
the
> > vehicle, and on most occasions they flatly refuse, saying that as long
as
> > the defective speedo is logged on the vehicle's defect sheet then I am
> > covered and am ok to drive.
> >
> > I find this very difficult to believe; surely if I am stopped for
speeding
> > by the police (ok, so it's not all that likely in a large city centre in
a
> > fully loaded double decker, but it *could* happen..!) they are hardly
> > likely to be impressed when I tell them the speedo is duff..!
> >
> > I have repeatedly tried to convice my manager that it will be *my*
licence
> > that gets the points, not his, but he remains unmoved and tells me that
I
> > am ok to drive as long as I log the defect.
> >
> > Surely this can't be true..?
> >
Are you in a Union? If you are they will have legal people who will put you
right quickly and with no fee. I know that in my area the T & G is brilliant
at sorting out this sort of thing, and has a free helpline plus a retained
law firm to help.
Alex
>> > fully loaded double decker, but it *could* happen..!) they are hardly
>> > likely to be impressed when I tell them the speedo is duff..!
>> >
>> > I have repeatedly tried to convice my manager that it will be *my*
>licence
>> > that gets the points, not his, but he remains unmoved and tells me that
>I
>> > am ok to drive as long as I log the defect.
>> >
>> > Surely this can't be true..?
>> >
>
>Are you in a Union? If you are they will have legal people who will put you
>right quickly and with no fee. I know that in my area the T & G is brilliant
>at sorting out this sort of thing, and has a free helpline plus a retained
>law firm to help.
>
Oh, which area are you in? Our T&G representitive are bloody useless.
Alex
mark...@gmail.com
> [crossposted to uk.legal as someone there might know..!]
>
> Hi All,
>
> than one occasion been expected to drive a bus with a defective (i.e. not
> working) speedometer. We operate to UK rules not EU rules and so do not
> require tachographs, but I would have thought a speedometer was still a
> legal requirement..?
>
> Each time this has happened I have requested that the engineers change the
> vehicle, and on most occasions they flatly refuse, saying that as long as
> the defective speedo is logged on the vehicle's defect sheet then I am
> covered and am ok to drive.
>
> I find this very difficult to believe; surely if I am stopped for speeding
> by the police (ok, so it's not all that likely in a large city centre in a
> likely to be impressed when I tell them the speedo is duff..!
>
> I have repeatedly tried to convice my manager that it will be *my* licence
> that gets the points, not his, but he remains unmoved and tells me that I
> am ok to drive as long as I log the defect.
>
> Surely this can't be true..?
>
this is not true - here are VOSA's regulations. they state, as of 'Note 4', that there will only be 'not action' taken against you if the fault has occurred on the journey and you are finishing that journey. You are liable to action against you if you continue the journey. The journey is 'the act of travelling from one place to another' (OED), In our profession that is called a 'trip' from one destination to another. here is the regulation:
Part 1: Public Service, Heavy Goods
and Agricultural Vehicles
Categorisation of Defects April 08 63
1
Description of Defect Severity of Defect Action Notes
IM 26
Speedometer/Tachograph
Speedometer
Speedometer not fitted/ incomplete/
inoperative/ dial glass broken/ missing/
cannot be illuminated (See Notes 1, 2
and 3)
Tachograph
Where required, a tachograph is not
fitted/ sealed/ inoperative (See Notes 2,
3 and 4)
-
Tachograph defects to be dealt with under
the Transport Act (GVI70 /TE160)
IN
-
1. Vehicles first registered on or after 1
October 1937 must be fitted with a
speedometer unless the vehicle is
legally limited to a speed not
exceeding 25mph or is incapable by
reason of its construction of
exceeding 25mph.
2. A tachograph may be fitted in place of
a speedometer to a vehicle not
within the scope of EC regulations.
3. Tachograph/ Speedometer fitment
does not apply to Agricultural motor
vehicles driven at not more than
20mph.
4. Examiners should be aware that if
recording equipment is fitted there are
situations where no offence is being
committed and therefore no action
should be taken. A person is not
liable if it can be established that it
had not been reasonably practicable
for the equipment to be repaired by
an approved workshop e.g. it had
become defective during the journey.
Drivers in these circumstances are
required to keep manual records.
Graeme Wall
> On Friday, 19 December 2003 17:44:14 UTC, Ivor Jones wrote:
>> [crossposted to uk.legal as someone there might know..!]
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm a driver for a large bus company in the Midlands and I have on more
>> than one occasion been expected to drive a bus with a defective (i.e. not
>> working) speedometer. We operate to UK rules not EU rules and so do not
>> require tachographs, but I would have thought a speedometer was still a
>> legal requirement..?
>>
>> Each time this has happened I have requested that the engineers change the
>> vehicle, and on most occasions they flatly refuse, saying that as long as
>> the defective speedo is logged on the vehicle's defect sheet then I am
>> covered and am ok to drive.
>>
>> I find this very difficult to believe; surely if I am stopped for speeding
>> by the police (ok, so it's not all that likely in a large city centre in a
>> fully loaded double decker, but it *could* happen..!) they are hardly
>> likely to be impressed when I tell them the speedo is duff..!
>>
>> I have repeatedly tried to convice my manager that it will be *my* licence
>> that gets the points, not his, but he remains unmoved and tells me that I
>> am ok to drive as long as I log the defect.
>>
>> Surely this can't be true..?
>>
>> Ivor
>
> this is not true - here are VOSA's regulations. they state, as of 'Note 4', that there will only be 'not action' taken against you if the fault has occurred on the journey and you are finishing that journey. You are liable to action against you if you continue the journey. The journey is 'the act of travelling from one place to another' (OED), In our profession that is called a 'trip' from one destination to another. here is the regulation:
>
You do realise you are replying to a post from 11 years ago?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>