Eastern National & Westcliff.
David Clark
1. When did Eastern National loose the Grays local services to London
Transport, Country Services, & why did it happen?
2. Was Westcliff & District Motor Service purchased by Eastern
National or Southend Borough Transport, back in the 1950's?
2a. Did Westcliff actually own any AEC "Q" type d/deckers, if so did
they really run into Grays?
TIA David C.
(Relatively new resident in the Grays, Essex area.)
Hello!
Somebody will probably correct me but here's what I understand.
1 Not sure on this
2 I think EN purchased Westcliff in 1953 or 1954
I must say the sale of Westcliff to EN saw quite a reorganisation of
services in the Southend area. In 1955 the coordination agreement started
and certain routes were swapped/given away. ST went into areas they had
never been to as a result.
3 I asked an expert on this one and apparently they did have some AEC Q's.
Don't know about the Grays bit, although the route Southend to Grays did
exist. It did not go until some time in the 80's when the 2 was shortened
to be Southend - Basildon only.
Steven R
In article <3c3b99d...@news.cableinet.co.uk>,
Terry Harper
news:4af6102...@argonet.co.uk...
> 2 I think EN purchased Westcliff in 1953 or 1954
>
> I must say the sale of Westcliff to EN saw quite a reorganisation of
> services in the Southend area. In 1955 the coordination agreement started
> and certain routes were swapped/given away. ST went into areas they had
> never been to as a result.
I thought that Westcliff were part of the Tilling group back in the mid-40s.
Amalgamation with Eastern National would have been an administrative detail.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
E-mail: terry....@btinternet.com
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/
Steven Rowe
Terry Harper <Terry....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "Hello!" <he...@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4af6102...@argonet.co.uk...
> > 2 I think EN purchased Westcliff in 1953 or 1954
> >
> > I must say the sale of Westcliff to EN saw quite a reorganisation of
> > services in the Southend area. In 1955 the coordination agreement started
> > and certain routes were swapped/given away. ST went into areas they had
> > never been to as a result.
> I thought that Westcliff were part of the Tilling group back in the mid-40s.
> Amalgamation with Eastern National would have been an administrative detail.
> --
> Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
I was under the strong impression that Westcliff was an independent. Does
anybody on this group know 100% what the situation was?
Steven R
David Farrier
Steven Rowe <ste...@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4af69589...@argonet.co.uk...
(Westcliff) in December 1934".
"The final day for the old regime was fixed for 2nd January 1955. The
following day there was only Eastern National left....."
Extracts from "The Years Between, 1909-1969" ISBN 0-86093-287-7.
Regards
Dave Farrier (Oldham)
John Ryan
(David Clark) wrote:
>I have a couple of questions for the group:-
>
>1. When did Eastern National loose the Grays local services to London
>Transport, Country Services, & why did it happen?
Basically the exchange of Services in the Grays Area took a number of
stages over many years and much of this stems from the Road Traffic
Act of 1930 in which Traffic Areas were commissioned and sanctioned.
The London Special Area being one of these and the Outer Area
(incorporating the Grays Area).
The London Passenger Transport Board (LPTB) became the statutory
authority for the new London Area and thus was heavily represented by
London General Country Services Ltd whose interests were more than
met.
The formation of the LPTB was intended to consolidate services in the
London Area but in Grays the opposite became the case with the bizarre
scenario of passengers being made to depart a vehicle in the west of
the town to gain access to a vehicle in the east to continue their
journeys, local residents being the worst effected by this silly
decision.
Many small operators were swallowed up by the new regime and those
whow weren't refused operators licences found life very difficult
indeed, but managed to continue, the largest of these being F.R.Harris
(Harris' Coaches), still operating today in the area and for a time
operated a few London contracts in the last few years.
That is a brief history of the earlier period and sets the stage for
what became later and is summarised from a fine article on the subject
by Alan Osborne of the Essex Bus Enthusiast Group (EBEG) and somewhat
tinkererd with by me here. But I hope this sets the stage as I say.
Westcliff on Sea Motor Services Ltd operated a couple of routes into
the east of Grays, namely 2 and 2b after the Grays Area split, the 2b
was altered and curtailed at Grays instead of continuing to its prior
destination of East Ham.
After the General Election of 1945 a new Transport Act was introduced
in 1947, under this act the BTC (British Transport Commission) was
formed in 1948 and the LPTB thus became the London Transport Executive
and in the same year the BTC acquired the interests of Thomas Tilling
Ltd. As a result of a decisions taken by the Commission, the LTE and
BTC made an agreement on the co-ordination of Grays Area Local
Services. In 1951 a number of previously run Eastern National bus
services and vehicles were transferred to London Transport. Many EN
staff followed to their new employers
I hope this explains at least some of the story.
As for the reasoning, perhaps the good old chestnuts of power and
money might have had something to do with it ;-)
>
>2. Was Westcliff & District Motor Service purchased by Eastern
>National or Southend Borough Transport, back in the 1950's?
Answered by David Farrier and Terry Harper in this thread.
>
>2a. Did Westcliff actually own any AEC "Q" type d/deckers, if so did
>they really run into Grays?
Yes Westcliff did operate AEC Qs and as far as I am aware they did
indeed run into Grays on the former Route 2
(Southend-Hadleigh-Pitsea-Corringham-Grays)
HTH
John Ryan
http://www.bside90.freeserve.co.uk
(Essex Bus - Eastern National - Thamesway)
David Clark
Ryan) wrote:
>On Wed, 09 Jan 2002 01:27:02 GMT, david....@blueyonder.co.uk
>(David Clark) wrote:
>
>>I have a couple of questions for the group:-
>>
>>1. When did Eastern National loose the Grays local services to London
>>Transport, Country Services, & why did it happen?
Thanks to all of you who took the time to answer my questions.
What little reaeach that I've managed, (in Grays Library), confirms
that EN & Westcilff o S were indeed Tilling group companies, but I
could'nt find any exact date for the EN take-over.
It was always surpprising to look at a LT country services map, & note
that the ring of green buses surrounding the red services was broken
in the east of London.
ISTR seeing green LT buses at Rainham & around Aveley, in the '60's,
but I don't know how far east they went.
I'm pretty sure that LT never reached into Basildon, it was certainly
an EN enclave when I moved into Laindon in 1974.
EN even ran what might of been considered to be a natural Green Line
route, IE the 152 / 251 services from Wood Green to Romford & beyond
to Southend.
(I was born / bred in Walthamstow, therefore quite used to strange
green d/deckers mixing withe the trolley-buses & RTW's along the
Forest Road, stopping at lamp-posts & traction poles, rather than
using the LT stops!)
Was EN the only other bus company / operator to have a bus garage in a
London suburb?
David C.
mike walton
Southend Borough Transport.
--
Mike and Enid Walton
Worcester (UK)
Please reply to : mikewal(notthisbit)@mail.com
Home Page : Buses around Worcester (UK)
http://www.worcesterbus.co.uk
"David Clark" <david....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c3b99d...@news.cableinet.co.uk...
Alan Watkins
Westcliff in 1955 by Eastern National was really just the last stage
of the absorbtion of the company because with it the Westcliff name
disappeared (although out in the sticks at Great Wakering about three
years ago I was amazed to see a Westcliff red bus stop still in
situ!). Long before that Westcliff services had appeared in the
Eastern National timetable and the livery was changed to green (same
as Eastern National) with Westcliff on Sea on the side by about 1951.
I am not sure but I think the last separate and distinctive Westcliff
timetable was 1950.
I suppose that the garage at Wood Green must count as the only Tilling
stage service operator garage in London but that was originally the
garage of the City Coach Company taken over by "Westcliff" in 1952
complete with Leyland GNU's which were painted green and given the
Westcliff fleet name! Birch Bros operated stage services to Beds and
Northants down the M1 from their hideaway garage in Cathcart Street
and other operators outstationed without a garage: for example, Corona
Coaches kept one bus in London for their London-Stowmarket
express/stage service and for some years Premier Travel of Cambridge
outstationed two double deckers (for a long time ex LT STL's) at the
Pye works in Tottenham to do a morning, lunchtime and evening contract
service for Pye which operated Monday-Friday.
London Transport never operated to Basildon but the service from Grays
to Bulphan came pretty close to it - about five miles from the
original "village" Basildon which consisted of two farms, a few
houses, and a post office in Gardiners Lane. This was exclusively
served by Campbells of Pitsea every two hours using a Bedford OWB.
The 251 was originally New Empress Saloons (later City Coach Company)
from Kentish Town to Southend but was cut back to Wood Green during
the war. All pre war city single deck vehicles still had Kentish Town
on the indicator.
City were also interesting in that the 251 service (Service 1 to City)
required 19 buses during the day. On summer weekends it required
massive duplication with various categories of duplicate (all of them
on the blinds). Southend (Relief) stopped at all regular bus stops if
there was room, Southend (Extra Relief) stopped at main points only
i.e Romford, Brentwood, Billericay, Wickford if there was room and
Southend (Through Relief) was filled up and sent direct to Southend
non stop.
Grays had an independent local service into the 50s..Our Bus who (from
memory) operated a Guy Vixen.
Westcliff did operate the Q vehicles to Grays and they also operated
them on the service 2a from Southend to Romford up the Arterial Road
and coming in to Romford via Upminster. This service required
extensive duplication and I imagine was the most heavily trafficked
route Westcliff had. On Wednesday and Saturday afternoons (main
market days at Romford) virtually every afternoon departure was two
double deckers, sometimes three. I was frequently very late home from
school because of standing gawping at elderly K5G and KSW's which were
then still in Tilling red.
Eastern National did not reach Basildon until they took over both City
(using the Westcliff subsidiary) and also Campbells of Pitsea. As
soon as the New Town came along they launched service 244 from Laindon
Station to Pitsea via Fryerns which was the first road to be built
through what is now Basildon. It was always awash with liquid mud
several inches deep because of the construction work and a journey on
a Lodekka usually meant you could see nothing out of the windows
because of the grime accumulated winter and summer.
In my childhood Brentwood was a wonderful place for a bus
enthusiast...all the local routes operated by City as well as the
London-Southend "main line" (and you never knew which type of vehicle
would turn up on a particular service - a Leyland Gnu going to Hook
End via Doddinghurst was just as likely as an OWB), the 86 and 247a LT
red buses to the Romford/Stratford area, the RT339's from Warley
(Horse and Groom) to Epping, Eastern National going to Brentwood
Station and London Bow, to Grays via the Ockendons and to Dunmow (the
old 3a service which often used Bedford Beadles), the 721 Green Line
to Aldgate plus Rose Bros of Chelmsford with their attractive Primrose
Coaches limited stop express between Chelmsford and Kings Cross.
Corona's distinctive brown and tangerine livery came through twice a
day en route to Stowmarket including a Saturday night departure at
well gone midnight (!!) and in the summer those ranks were swelled by
Eastern Belle, United (with their most unattractive Army khaki
livery), Grey Green, Orange Luxury, Ardley, Fallowfield and Britten
and many, many London operators doing private hire or day trips to
Southend. At the height of the summer you would have elderly Eastern
Counties pre war L4G's complete with wooden indicators operating a
relief express to somewhere like Southwold. It certainly was then the
Golden Age of the bus and City were particularly efficient....if there
was a long queue on Saturday afternoon to go in the Southend direction
almost always the inspector whistled up a bus from the garage 200
yards away in Ongar Road just to clear the queue as far as Billericay
and Wickford.
Just a few memories.
Alan M. Watkins
David Clark
On 19 Jan 2002 17:22:32 -0800, alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins)
wrote:
Alan, thanks very much for all the aboe information!
David Clark.
John Ryan
(David Clark) wrote:
>I have a couple of questions for the group:-
>
>1. When did Eastern National loose the Grays local services to London
>Transport, Country Services, & why did it happen?
>
>2. Was Westcliff & District Motor Service purchased by Eastern
>National or Southend Borough Transport, back in the 1950's?
>
>2a. Did Westcliff actually own any AEC "Q" type d/deckers, if so did
>they really run into Grays?
As a coincidental footnote to this topic, an article has just appeared
in 'Buses' magazine on this very theme and Alan Osborne (a person I
mentioned previously for his more than useful piece some years ago),
has provided much help in the 'Buses' article.
HTH
John Ryan
http://www.bside90.freeserve.co.uk
(Essex Buses - Eastern National & Thamesway)
Lionel Wells
Greenline service via Barking, East Ham and Blackwall, the vehicles were
based at Upminster garage that also supplied the 722 service from Upminster
via Ilford and Stratford- this goes back to arounf the WWll era. I only
ever recall Eastern National operating the express service from Southend via
Brentwood, Romford and Gant Hill into north London. I understand all the
changes were made in the late 30's when Eastern National took over their
route from City of Brentwood.
Roger Smith
mike walton <mikew...@fish.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c48793b$0$8508$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
Nigel Utting
entertain and inform. Before you ask, I have no ties with them. :-)
"Lionel Wells" <pumpma...@virgin.net> wrote in message
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