Another disgusting bit of racism from a bus-driver
Tristán White
in Edgware, whom I thought was being racist. I did write a letter but it got
me nowhere. Well, today I have witnessed another clear example of what I
think is racism. I would like to complain, but the last complaint got me
absolutely nowhere so I may not bother. Thank God for UTL and UTB on which I
vent my anger.
This morning, 09:50, 115 bus going westbound down the Barking Road. Two very
elderly gentlemen are sitting in those seats reserved for, and I quote, "the
elderly and the disabled, or people with children". I am not sure of their
exact ethnicity, but I believe they belong to some very venerable order of
Islam... they wear very long white shirts (not tucked in), a short brown
jacket (often wool or tweed, but normally some sort of polyester, but always
the same browny-grey colour), they always have a white beard but they never
have a moustache, and their head is covered by a white lace-like flannel
(square, I think). You often see them congregate in the Whitechapel area, I
have often wondered what religious sect they belong to.
Anyway, back to my story: these two guys were about 80 I would say, quite
unsteady on their feet, faces wrinkled like prunes. Lovely old gentlemen. We
get to the Abbey Arms on Barking Road and on comes a tough-looking
20-something (white) East End lass with a child (a good three or four yrs
old IMHO) in a pushchair. The bus driver stops, gets out of his seat-area,
runs down the aisle, stands over the two Islamic octogenarians and starts
shouting at them, ordering them to get up and sit at the back so that the
lady and pram can get up, as the area is reserved for women with pushchairs.
The old men obviously couldn't spring up and make way just like that, as I
said they were old and slow, but the driver (white, by the way) was having
none of it. He was screaming at the men to get up. The thing is, there would
have been room for the old men and the pushchair and the woman could have
stood holding the pushchair, but no, the driver was on a power-high and
wanted to make these doddery old men get up and make way for the white
mother. Of course, everyone turned around and watched this (must have been
hugely embarrassing for the two gents). I got up and gave them my seat at
the back, and a few of us shock our head in disbelief. One young lady told
them that the driver had no right in doing what he did and that the seat was
as much for the elderly and infirm as it is for those with children. They
shrugged their shoulders, either because they didn't understand English or
because they were used to such discrimination. The silly tough-looking
mother was only going one stop anyway (to the McDonalds near the Beckton
Arms IIRC), but she did not look at all embarrassed to be the cause of such
(IMO) racially-motivated discrimination.
Now, forgive me for being cynical, but I can bet you (you get a hunch with
this sort of thing) that had it been two white octogenarian East Enders, war
veterans etc., and a black mother with a pram got on, I BET YOU ANYTHING
that that driver would not have got off his arse to order the two white
war-veterans to get up and move to the back of the bus. No way. This driver
was on a power-trip. It was DISGUSTING.
I may complain. This time I DO have the bus's number-plate although I don't
have the registration number of the driver etc. I won't reveal it on these
groups, but if anyone wishes to contact me and take any action on my words,
I will give it to him/her gladly. Ever since the bus companies have been
desperate for drivers I think they have been slightly less selective in the
process and have been recruiting all types; I for one have noticed the
bonhomie/friendliness of bus-drivers in the capital decrease considerably
since their massive recruitment drive.
I just thought I'd let you guys know, to get this off my chest. Whether or
not I complain is another matter. It would help if I knew what religion/race
these two guys were, so if anyone knows from my description it would be
appreciated. The thing is, the bus companies are so starved of drivers that
my complaint will probably do nothing. All it will do, no doubt, is put my
own livelihood in danger, since my address would obviously need to be
attached to any correspondence. This is of course a small price to pay if it
helps stamp out racism, but if it probably would go no further than the
bus-driver getting a small verbal warning, then is it worth it? Do I really
want a brick through my window? Would you do it?
Any advice will be appreciated. Your advice last time (when I witnessed a
driver in Edgware overreact by calling the police when a young black
schoolkid wouldn't turn off his transistor radio straight away) was
excellent, although it didn't get me anywhere... am still awaiting a letter
other than the initial acknowledgement.
Thanks
TRISTÁN
--
uk.music.rave host PLUR, the biggest underground dance party ever to hit the
UK!
PLUR Party Homepage: http://www.dooza.co.uk/PLUR Tickets:
http://how.to/buy-umr-tickets
London Bridge "Drome", Sat 26 February 2000, 40 DJs, live acts, ends 8am
Sunday
Allan
news:87otl3$5al$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Its very admirable to see someone WANTING to take action!
U have my out most respect for that Tristan
Allan
Zobo Kolonie
news:87otl3$5al$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
driver
> in Edgware, whom I thought was being racist. I did write a letter but it
got
> me nowhere. Well, today I have witnessed another clear example of what I
> think is racism. I would like to complain, but the last complaint got me
> absolutely nowhere so I may not bother. Thank God for UTL and UTB on which
I
> vent my anger.
>
Whether racially motivated or not, the driver's behaviour was disgraceful
IMO.
It's a pity that you couldn't arrange a group of witnesses there and then on
the bus.
I'm amazed that the driver got out of his cab, my uncle drives buses and he
doesn't get out of his cab for anything other than getting out of the bus.
Anyway, I think you should complain... in writing, but I understand your
concern about getting your windows bricked.
Well, I've got a suggestion... I'll take it to email though...
ZK
Steve Pang
would not have happened if the two men had been white.
--
"It's a small world...but I wouldn't want to paint it." Steven Wright.
Sey
Kevin
The incident should not have happened regardless of the race of
those involved.
The incident
>would not have happened if the two men had been white.
>
You have absolutely no way of knowing this, of course.
Kevin
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Kevin
<Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
.. about an incedent on a bus....
I don't know if it actually was racist - it sounds like the bus
driver didn't have any sense at all. You should probably
complain though, but about what you actually saw, rather than
what you think was the cause.
Let us know if you get a reply
Tristán White
>>The incident
>>would not have happened if the two men had been white.
>You have absolutely no way of knowing this, of course.
There is no way he would have done it had the two men been old white
war-veterans and the woman with the pushchair been black. You can tell this
by the attitude the driver had towards the Islamic octogenarians. Because he
should never have done this in the first place (the men had as much right to
be there as the woman, there is no priority to women with pushchairs over
the elderly/disabled in the rulebooks) it can only be conceived as
racially-motivated. The way in which he addressed the elderly gentlemen was
rude and insulting, treating them worse than third class citizens. There is
no way on EARTH that the driver was doing this because he seriously thought
that a woman with a pram has more right to that area than a disabled
octogenarian (especially as there was room for all anyway). It was *clearly*
(and I can't stress this enough) racially motivated. Of course, one could
set him up quite easily: wait for the same bus next day, get your (white)
granddad to sit there, wait for the next black woman with a pram to come on
board, and see if the driver shouts at your granddad to get up! That would
prove it. But I think you'll appreciate that it is entirely unnecessary to
prove, as he should never have asked them to move anyway.
Tristán White
>Let us know if you get a reply
I will do. First of all, though, I'm going to find an address which has no
links to my home or work, to be used for correspondence. I'm not being
funny, but should the driver get a ticking off -- which would be at least
what I would hope he'd get... hopefully more than that -- since most East
End bus co's recruit local drivers (according to their local ads) then I'd
rather keep my windows intact. I'm not being a coward, I'm just taking
sensible precautions. You can never be sure.
Allan
news:newscache$ip9mpf$tob$1...@euston.vossnet.co.uk...
> yawn !!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
wow did U write that yourself or U had some help with that??
RedEye
thr...@my-deja.com
"Tristán White" <Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> I will do. First of all, though, I'm going to find an address which
has no
> links to my home or work, to be used for correspondence. I'm not being
> funny, but should the driver get a ticking off -- which would be at
least
> what I would hope he'd get... hopefully more than that -- since most
East
> End bus co's recruit local drivers (according to their local ads)
then I'd
> rather keep my windows intact. I'm not being a coward, I'm just taking
> sensible precautions. You can never be sure.
>
Tristan,
If you don't mind writing to LU from abroard, I'd be most happy to
offer you a choice of addresses abroard as a c/o for the complaint -
that should be far enough from Barking Road, I guess. -> personal mail,
please.
Isn't it sad that racial incidents has become a thing people are afraid
to report for fear of retaliation in _Britain_ (rather than Austria,
for that matter)?
--
Thomas Reich
thr...@my-dejanews.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Allan
> Kevin wrote in message <2186283c...@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com>...
> >Let us know if you get a reply
>
>
> links to my home or work, to be used for correspondence. I'm not being
> funny, but should the driver get a ticking off -- which would be at least
> what I would hope he'd get... hopefully more than that -- since most East
> End bus co's recruit local drivers (according to their local ads) then I'd
> rather keep my windows intact. I'm not being a coward, I'm just taking
> sensible precautions. You can never be sure.
>
>
>
didn't think nothing of having a go at two old people. I doubt if he would
care much for you nither if he find your address!
RedEye
Tristán White
>Hey U are not being a coward mate just taking care of yourself, that prat
>didn't think nothing of having a go at two old people. I doubt if he would
>care much for you nither if he find your address!
Thanks mate!
Oh, and if anyone knows exactly what race/religion I'm talking about, it
would strengthen my letter. I think my description is pretty accurate.
Rafah Hanna
Thanks for taking the time to write all of this. I have one criticism of
you though, I hope you take it constructively : If you are prepared to
write so much about one incident, a subject which you clearly feel strongly
about, rightly, then I would have thought you would have written a strong
letter not only to the relevant authorities, but also got the likes of the
Race Relations Council (correct name??) involved.
One thing is to condemn it, another is to do nothing about it, when you do
have the right, the ability and the moral courage to do so.
Kind regards.
Rafah.
Sue_R
Rafah Hanna <rha...@datastreamicv.com> wrote in message
news:01bf724b$89b1ae60$95e2689f@hannar...
I'm sure Tris will do his best.
Here's some stuff he may find useful:
Commission for Racial Equality
Elliot House
10/12 Allington St
London SW1E SEH
0171-828 7022
FAX- 0171-630 7605
--
Sue
www.benjames.co.uk
The Ben James Campaign
Read his story and sign the guestbook
Tristán White
>Thanks for taking the time to write all of this. I have one criticism of
>you though, I hope you take it constructively : If you are prepared to
>write so much about one incident, a subject which you clearly feel strongly
>about, rightly, then I would have thought you would have written a strong
>letter not only to the relevant authorities, but also got the likes of the
>Race Relations Council (correct name??) involved.
OK, thanks for your comments.
(1) Yes, I am going to send the complaint off, and I will CC it to the
Commission for Racial Equality (thanks Sue, you're a star).
(2) I feel much better this time... last time I had a similar complaint
about racism on buses (April 1999) I got a lot of positive and negative
feedback from the groups. This time I have only got positive, so I think
that this time I have a good point. The link for the previous thread is:
http://x42.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=464007200&CONTEXT=950033990.2107
703302&hitnum=11
(3) I'm going to wait until I've sorted a couple of things, namely:
(a) ascertained the religion/race of the guys in question, as it will
strengthen my point
(b) sorted out a good address to use, (thanks Zobo, Thomas, etc., for
your suggestions)
I may even skip the address and send the whole thing by e-mail. However, I
imagine that in order for my complaint to have any clout, I'll need an
address of some sort.
TRISTÁN
Tristán White
>If you don't mind writing to LU from abroard, I'd be most happy to
>offer you a choice of addresses abroard as a c/o for the complaint -
>that should be far enough from Barking Road, I guess. -> personal mail,
>please.
Thank you! I'll be in touch via e-mail.
>Isn't it sad that racial incidents has become a thing people are afraid
>to report for fear of retaliation in _Britain_ (rather than Austria,
>for that matter)?
Yes, it is.
Fortunately, we're no where near as bad as in Austria and this city has a
pretty harmonious interracial co-existance. Racial incidents are pretty
scarce, compared to some other cities/countries. Which is why the BNP
fortunately have no members in parliament etc. :-) However, when one
witnesses such an event, especially coming from a professional whom we
should trust (ie a bus-driver), it's a horrible thing.
Andrew P Smith
8859-1?q?Trist=E1n_White?= <Trista...@rocketmail.com> writes
>then is it worth it?
<much snipped for space>
Tristan.....
If you don't report this then the driver will do it again. And again.
And again.
Even if the driver just gets a verbal then at least it may well make him
think twice about doing it again. Don't worry about the possibility of
personal attack.
Make the complaint by phone if you want to.
Just make sure you make the complaint.
--
Andrew
E Mail can be altered electronically and therefore the integrity of this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this E Mail are those of the author and not associations or
companies I am involved with.
Sue_R
Andrew P Smith <and...@spamfree.co.uk> wrote in message
news:YGjoakAW...@tallguy.demon.co.uk...
> In article <87otl3$5al$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, =?iso-
> 8859-1?q?Trist=E1n_White?= <Trista...@rocketmail.com> writes
>
>
> Tristan.....
>
> If you don't report this then the driver will do it again. And again.
> And again.
>
> Even if the driver just gets a verbal then at least it may well make him
> think twice about doing it again. Don't worry about the possibility of
> personal attack.
>
> Make the complaint by phone if you want to.
>
> Just make sure you make the complaint.
Hear, hear. And make sure that the bus company concerned know you are
contacting the CRE. Companies don't like negative PR concerning
race-relations - look at Fords.
Good Luck.
Annabel Smyth
>I will do. First of all, though, I'm going to find an address which has no
>links to my home or work, to be used for correspondence. I'm not being
>funny, but should the driver get a ticking off -- which would be at least
>what I would hope he'd get... hopefully more than that -- since most East
>End bus co's recruit local drivers (according to their local ads) then I'd
>rather keep my windows intact. I'm not being a coward, I'm just taking
>sensible precautions. You can never be sure.
>
You could e-mail, the addresses to use are on the London buses
page. I don't think you have to give your address, and you could
explain your reasons for not giving more than London (first part of
post code).
--
Annabel Smyth mailto:Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 9 January 2000
David Farrier
Tristán White <Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:87pcht$nh$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> then I'd rather keep my windows intact. I'm not being a coward, I'm just
taking
> sensible precautions. You can never be sure.
Is that because ALL white East Enders are thugs?
Perhaps you should go to Saudi Arabia and watch how non-Islamic people are
treated, e.g. Indians, Phillipinos, Koreans, (what no Jewish people?).
What you witnessed was a disgrace, but don't read too much into the
incident.
It sounds syptomatic of life in London.
Next time, challenge the driver and rally support from fellow passengers.
I am on your side.
Dave Farrier (ex-Gulf Port Management Services, Saudi Arabia).
timi the tosspot
>Andrew P Smith
and <Trista...@rocketmail.com> writes
>> <much snipped for space>
[and lots of others with strong feelings about this]
>> Tristan.....
>> If you don't report this then the driver will do it again. And again.
>> And again.
>> Even if the driver just gets a verbal then at least it may well make him
>> think twice about doing it again. Don't worry about the possibility of
>> personal attack.
>> Make the complaint by phone if you want to.
>> Just make sure you make the complaint.
>Hear, hear. And make sure that the bus company concerned know you are
>contacting the CRE. Companies don't like negative PR concerning
>race-relations - look at Fords.
>Good Luck.
oh bugger. i've lost another job just when i was becoming settled.
no more buses then, i'll move to local invalid transports.
RELL6G
>Any advice will be appreciated. Your advice last time (when I witnessed a
>driver in Edgware overreact by calling the police when a young black
>schoolkid wouldn't turn off his transistor radio straight away) was
>excellent, although it didn't get me anywhere... am still awaiting a letter
>other than the initial acknowledgement.
Indeed, here you go again - from a scant reading of another article I
see you do not have any witnesses to this alleged incident I really have
to form the impression that the scenario is rather one sided, I really
do wonder if *you* had a gripe with the driver at all?
--
RELL6G
RELL6G
<Trista...@rocketmail.com> writes
>Kevin wrote in message <2186283c...@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com>...
>>Let us know if you get a reply
>
>
>links to my home or work, to be used for correspondence. I'm not being
>funny, but should the driver get a ticking off -- which would be at least
>End bus co's recruit local drivers (according to their local ads) then I'd
>rather keep my windows intact. I'm not being a coward, I'm just taking
>sensible precautions. You can never be sure.
Absolutely, to accuse an individual of being totally racist when this
may be dubious can result in unpleasant consequences for the
complainant, mind you if there is 100% proof of the accusation then I
wouldn't have thought any 'change of I.D. on your part would be an issue
really.
--
RELL6G
thr...@my-deja.com
"Tristán White" <Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> (3) I'm going to wait until I've sorted a couple of things, namely:
> (a) ascertained the religion/race of the guys in question, as it
> will strengthen my point
Not so sure there. The quicker the reaction, the better. Also, I don't
really see why the _exact_ religion / race of the victims should be of
any importance whatsoever. They should not have been treated the way
the were. Period. Let the Race Relations Committee do the rest, the
guys 'n' gals there surely have dealt with similar matters before?!
Allan
Well as far as I know I think Muslims which ones! I would say Sunni! (can't
spell it though).
RedEye
Zobo Kolonie
>
> witnesses such an event, especially coming from a professional whom we
> should trust (ie a bus-driver), it's a horrible thing.
>
Professional positions take years of training and examination followed by
something similar to an apprentiship to acquire.
So there.
ZK
timi the tosspot
couldn't agree more. i spent quite a large proportion
of my younger days studying and taking exams,
in order to finally have letters after my name.
but now i can call myself tosspot.
Zobo Kolonie
news:87rgfa$c80$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
ZK
Dave Root
>A bus driver can in no way be described as a professional.
You need to get a dictionary, then.
>Professional positions take years of training and examination followed
by
>something similar to an apprentiship to acquire.
Where do you get this idea from?
>So there.
Quite.
--
Dave Root
dave(a)quackduck.freeserve.co.uk (reply doesn't work)
http://www.quackduck.freeserve.co.uk/
Tristán White
>Is that because ALL white East Enders are thugs?
>It sounds syptomatic of life in London.
>Next time, challenge the driver and rally support from fellow passengers.
>I am on your side.
Thanks for the support. I would like to say, however, that what I witnessed
on the bus is not something I see regularly. I have lived in the East End
for a long time and, with the odd isolated incident, I have seen a lot of
harmony. Perhaps it is because I see it so rarely that I am so shocked when
I do see it happen. But, on behalf of any East Enders on this group, I have
to say that 99.9% of those I have met have been lovely people. On the other
hand, the 0.1% have been completely despicable. But I much prefer this to
eg. Edgware where pretty much 100% of the people I met were neither!
What I mean by this is, up in Edgware I didn't even meet the neighbours. On
the other hand, when we moved into the East End about five families from the
same street knocked on our door to welcome us to the neighbourhood. Within
two weeks, my neighbours on both sides had my house-keys and I had theirs!
Tristán White
>Not so sure there. The quicker the reaction, the better. Also, I don't
>really see why the _exact_ religion / race of the victims should be of
>any importance whatsoever. They should not have been treated the way
>the were. Period. Let the Race Relations Committee do the rest, the
>guys 'n' gals there surely have dealt with similar matters before?!
Only so that I can let their community association know of what happened.
Perhaps they may publish the incident in their own circulars. That is why.
Another reason is, I want to stress that these guys are religious men.
Peaceful men. They were not trouble-makers. They were men of the cloth.
Tristán White
I can promise you that I *will* be informing them all. And I will say, on
the bottom of each letter, something like:
This letter has been sent to: Mr xxxx xxxxxxx, C.R.E.; Mrs xxx xxxxxxx,
Stagecoach East London , etc. etc. :-)
Zobo Kolonie
news:87ricc$f8s$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Zobo Kolonie wrote
>
> >A bus driver can in no way be described as a professional.
>
> You need to get a dictionary, then.
>
> >Professional positions take years of training and examination followed
> by
> >something similar to an apprentiship to acquire.
>
> Where do you get this idea from?
>
From spending years in training and examination followed by something
similar to an apprentiship.
Oh, and my uncle's a bus driver, he wouldn't call his trade a "profession"
either (and yes, I just telephoned him and he agreed that it was a "trade"
rather than "profession").
> >So there.
>
> Quite.
>
So there again.
ZK
Dave Root
>Dave Root wrote
>> Zobo Kolonie wrote
>>
>> >A bus driver can in no way be described as a professional.
>>
>> You need to get a dictionary, then.
>>
>I've got one, it doesn't mention bus drivers.
What specific professions does it mention?
>> >Professional positions take years of training and examination
followed
>> by
>> >something similar to an apprentiship to acquire.
>>
>> Where do you get this idea from?
>>
>From spending years in training and examination followed by something
>similar to an apprentiship.
The fact that you have done it does not make it the definition of
"professional". It is merely a commonly-used narrower sense of the term,
for which I cannot think of a better specific word.
>Oh, and my uncle's a bus driver, he wouldn't call his trade a
"profession"
>either (and yes, I just telephoned him and he agreed that it was a
"trade"
>rather than "profession").
So you alone define "profession" and your uncle alone defines "trade". I
like this. I'll define "wrong" as "a characteristic displayed by Zobo
Kolonie".
Personally, I just call it a job. To me "trade" suggests a tradesperson
e.g. builder, plumber, electrician, etc. I wouldn't normally call bus
driving a profession either, but to do so is not incorrect.
If it is, how do you explain the term "professional driver"?
>> >So there.
>>
>> Quite.
>>
>So there again.
I take it this is your signature line?
London groups removed.
--
Tristán White
>Indeed, here you go again - from a scant reading of another article I
>see you do not have any witnesses to this alleged incident I really have
>to form the impression that the scenario is rather one sided, I really
>do wonder if *you* had a gripe with the driver at all?
I assure you I do not. I don't go around looking for trouble, I'm a very
peaceful person, never been in a fight before and I never ever look for
trouble. Anyone on uk.local.london (my usual group... we meet up every
month) can vouch for this.
I don't make a habit of complaining. I don't go out of my way looking for
racism. But when I see it in front of me, I feel very angry and I see the
need to do something about it.
With this recent incident, there were about 30 witnesses. Unfortunately, I
do not have their details... something I regret now.
I assure you I have no gripe with this driver or with any driver. I have the
utmost respect for any bus driver, as I know the pay isn't good, the hours
are long, and since conductors have all but disappeared their workload has
increased and become more stressful. They are also vulnerable to violent
behaviour from unruly passengers. Please believe me that I do not go around
looking for racist drivers to grass up. But when I see racist behaviour, I
will complain. Simple as that. And when I see a racist doing a job, and I
realise how many people of all races there are out there who don't have a
job, I feel indignant. Can you blame me?
TRISTÁN
Tristán White
RELL6G wrote in message ...
>may be dubious can result in unpleasant consequences for the
>complainant, mind you if there is 100% proof of the accusation then I
>wouldn't have thought any 'change of I.D. on your part would be an issue
>really.
Although you would agree with me, had you been there, that he was being
totally racist, I do appreciate how hard it will be to prove it. Unless of
course there have been suspicions of this behaviour from him in the past.
But fortunately, however you interpret it, the driver has -- if he has not
been racist -- been ageist. I *know* he was racist, but as far as the
complaints authority is concerned, if no one can prove he was racist that
the only other reason for him doing what he did was out of ageism. So
whatever happens, it will prove he acted in the wrong, and I would imagine
that he will get some sort of reprimand... particularly as my letter will be
CC'd to the C.R.E., the LUL customer service (as well as the local bus co.
customer service), and possibly even the local rag (a suggestion from
someone on uk.local.london, not a bad one).
So yes, I would have thought that revealing my address would not be a good
idea. If this is how he reacts to his elderly passengers, how will he react
to a guy who has got him into trouble?
Finally, and last but not least, the 115 is quite a modern bus, with CCTV. I
don't know how long the tapes last (one week?) but the faster I act (I will
be faxing the letters off tomorrow morning, and putting them in the
first-class post as well), the sooner they may be able to prove my points by
keeping the CCTV tape. I may of course be wrong, and possibly the CCTV
doesn't get recorded or gets erased nightly, I don't know. You will know
this better, since I take it you are a UTB regular (I only look at UTB when
I have an interest in a topic... I have posted stuff in here over the past
couple of years, mainly about Routemasters of which I am a great fan).
However, I do lurk occasionally on this group and this is in fact the first
time I am de-lurking, so to speak, ie. sending a message to UTB and to UTB
alone.
Also, please see my other answer to your UTB-only query, below.
All the best
TRISTÁN
Dave Root
>Finally, and last but not least, the 115 is quite a modern bus, with
CCTV. I
>don't know how long the tapes last (one week?) but the faster I act (I
will
>be faxing the letters off tomorrow morning, and putting them in the
>first-class post as well), the sooner they may be able to prove my
points by
>keeping the CCTV tape. I may of course be wrong, and possibly the CCTV
>doesn't get recorded or gets erased nightly, I don't know.
We had CCTV on Volvo B10B/Plaxton in Oxford, and I was told it was on a
24 hour cycle. So probably too late by now.
Ian Roberts
majority of bus drivers are proffessional although unfortunately you do get
the odd bad apple. In this particular case I would say you got the PCV
driving equivalent of a Grand Wizard, who unfortunately tends to get noticed
a lot more than the majority.
Ian Roberts, Pendleton, Salford.
I do not beleive in discrimination - anyone can be a pillock regardless of
race, gender, sexual orientation, societal class or occupation.
Adrian Hobbs
Now children, are you sitting comfortably.
I take offence at not being called a "professional driver" for the following
reasons.
1) It has taken me all my working life to gain the knowledge I have in
driving all sorts of commercial vehicles. Both goods and passenger
vehicles. We are talking over 20 years experience here. Is that a long
enough apprenticeship?? Although, having said that, this sort of
apprenticeship is never finished, you can always learn something new.
2) The driving job I have now has involved just over six months SPECIALISED
training, which is continuing as on work training. For those that do not
work in the bus industry, you cannot just walk in off the street and drive a
bus. Don't forget, you could have up to 70 people on one bus. There is a
lot of difference between a car that is about 10-15 feet long and weighs
about a ton/ and a half, and a bus that is 36 feet long and can weigh
anything up to 12 tons. I have been taught how to brake safely without
skidding. I have been taught how to reverse in a very confined space. Just
imagine driving off in a very large vehicle with no formal training
beforehand.
3) I wouldn't mind betting that many of you have never driven a vehicle
fitted with air brakes. Just try driving it the same as a car, I wonder how
long it would take you to realise that it takes practice to drive this sort
of vehicle.
4) Imagine the job you do, whatever it is. You could be a shop
assistant/administrator/builder/etc. all of which you have had to learn
skills to accomplish. Taken from Oxford Compact Dictionary: Professional -
1)connected to or belonging to a profession, 2) engaged in a specified
activity as paid occupation.
From a PROFESSIONAL DRIVER to all the drivers that only drive to or from
their profession.
Happy bussing
Ade
Dave Root <emai...@the.address.in.my.sig> wrote in message
news:87roaf$ief$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Andrew Harrison
> I will do. First of all, though, I'm going to find an address which has no
> links to my home or work, to be used for correspondence.
Go to your nearest Crown Post Office and ask about getting a PO Box. I
think the charge is £10 a month...
--
Andrew Harrison - PSN 0709 119 2108
andrewh...@XXmiltonabbeyXX.co.uk - Remove the Xs
'If the problem can't be sorted out with a clawhammer or a pint of beer
then I'm not interested'
critic
andrewh...@XXmiltonabbeyXX.co.uk (Andrew Harrison) wrote:
>In article <87pcht$nh$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, Tristán White
><Trista...@rocketmail.com> said...
>
>> I will do. First of all, though, I'm going to find an address which has no
>> links to my home or work, to be used for correspondence.
>
>Go to your nearest Crown Post Office and ask about getting a PO Box. I
>think the charge is £10 a month...
Sadly that won't work. To avoid PO Boxes being used for fraudulent
purposes, Royal Mail will give out your real address to anybody who
asks who owns the PO Box Number. That's anybody, not just Police,
C&E, DTI etc, anybody at all.
Clive D.W. Feather
>I may even skip the address and send the whole thing by e-mail. However, I
>imagine that in order for my complaint to have any clout, I'll need an
>address of some sort.
You could point out that it's government policy to do things
electronically.
You could also PGP sign the email, which would show you're serious and
not trying to be anonymous to them.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Internet Expert | Work: <cl...@demon.net>
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 | Demon Internet | Home: <cl...@davros.org>
Fax: +44 20 8371 1037 | Thus plc | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address
Darryl Chamberlain
Sue_R <Su...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:XZ%n4.20170$PG6.157592@news2-hme0...
Companies don't like negative PR concerning race-relations - look at Fords.
Ah, but this is Stagecoach, run by Brian "Backs to the wall, boys!" Souter,
the Section 28 bigot - you never can tell....
Good luck, Tristan. If you hear nothing from Stagecoach, I'm sure LTB would
be *very* pleased to hear of how their contractors deal with their
customers.
David Farrier
You must have agood job. Thats about eleven mails to this thread in working
hours.
Make sure there are no bus drivers scrutinising you at work :)
I work in the IT industry and have never read or sent external e-mails or
surfed the net while being paid to do my job.
Dave Farrier
Tristán White <Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:87rpa9$dao$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> RELL6G wrote in message ...
Ian Roberts
Darryl Chamberlain <darr...@SPAMSPAMSPAMlineone.net> wrote in message
news:87ssme$if3$1...@supernews.com...
>
> Sue_R <Su...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
> news:XZ%n4.20170$PG6.157592@news2-hme0...
> Companies don't like negative PR concerning race-relations - look at
Fords.
>
> Ah, but this is Stagecoach, run by Brian "Backs to the wall, boys!"
Souter,
> the Section 28 bigot - you never can tell....
>
respomding to their customers. If I thought for one moment that Stagecoach
were to sipport racism, then I would drop them like a ton of bricks. It may
also be worthwhile to include one your e-mail list for any complaint any
government organisation which displays advertising on the offending
operator. All government departments are equal opportunities irientated and
I hope to imagine that none would wish to be associated with this sort of
derogatory behaviour.
If you want /need more information contact me direct at
ianmr...@cwcom.net.
Tristán White
>You could also PGP sign the email, which would show you're serious and
>not trying to be anonymous to them.
Thank you. Good point.
RELL6G
<Trista...@rocketmail.com> writes
<snip>
Very fair comment Tristan, I'm sure we all realise what dreadful
undercurrents occur with such a deep issue as racism et al.
It'll be interesting to see what feedback you receive anyway :-)
--
RELL6G
4 emails change nospam 2 bcvr
Gary Lowndes
>A bus driver can in no way be described as a professional.
>Professional positions take years of training and examination followed by
>something similar to an apprentiship to acquire.
>So there.
The transport authorities here in New Zealand have recently moved away
from calling bus drivers "professional drivers", we are now
"vocational drivers".
Gary.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those who want to reply my adress is chairman at ihug dot co dot nz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darryl Chamberlain
Ian Roberts <ianmr...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:98oo4.16251$M47.170534@news1-hme0...
>
> Darryl Chamberlain <darr...@SPAMSPAMSPAMlineone.net> wrote in message
> news:87ssme$if3$1...@supernews.com...
> >
> > Sue_R <Su...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
> > news:XZ%n4.20170$PG6.157592@news2-hme0...
> > Companies don't like negative PR concerning race-relations - look at
> Fords.
> >
> > Ah, but this is Stagecoach, run by Brian "Backs to the wall, boys!"
> Souter,
> > the Section 28 bigot - you never can tell....
> >
> But Stagecoach and Brian Souter got where they are by listening to and
> respomding to their customers.
I write from London, where I sometimes have no choice but to travel by
Stagecoach bus, and put money into this bigot's pockets, and the advertising
is controlled by an outside agency.
Andrew Harrison
c...@SPAMSPAMSPAMlineone.net> said...
> I write from London, where I sometimes have no choice but to travel by
> Stagecoach bus, and put money into this bigot's pockets, and the advertising
> is controlled by an outside agency.
And of course in the south west, we have no optio but to travel on his
trains...
Gordon Brown
Harrison <andrewh...@XXmiltonabbeyXX.co.uk> writes
>In article <882ic8$ism$1...@supernews.com>, Darryl Chamberlain <darryl-
>c...@SPAMSPAMSPAMlineone.net> said...
>
>> I write from London, where I sometimes have no choice but to travel by
>> Stagecoach bus, and put money into this bigot's pockets, and the advertising
>> is controlled by an outside agency.
For your information, the money paid to operators in London goes to
London Transport, not the operating company.
>
>And of course in the south west, we have no optio but to travel on his
>trains...
>
--
Gordon Brown
Robert Woolley
into their keyboard:
>In article <MPG.1312296ae...@news.freeserve.net>, Andrew
>Harrison <andrewh...@XXmiltonabbeyXX.co.uk> writes
>>In article <882ic8$ism$1...@supernews.com>, Darryl Chamberlain <darryl-
>>c...@SPAMSPAMSPAMlineone.net> said...
>>
>>> I write from London, where I sometimes have no choice but to travel by
>>> Stagecoach bus, and put money into this bigot's pockets, and the advertising
>>> is controlled by an outside agency.
>
>For your information, the money paid to operators in London goes to
>London Transport, not the operating company.
Not quite true - depends if it is a net or gross cost contract.
Rob.
Rob @ robert dot woolley dot easynet dot co dot uk
My views, no-one else's (probably)
James Farrar
writes
>On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:24:36 +0000, Andrew P Smith <and...@spamfree.co.uk> --
>wrote:
>
>>In article <38bc8c7f...@news.fdn.com>, "T. K. Pasio" <tkpasio@my-
>>deja.com> writes
>>>"Jehad",
>>
>>Correctly spelt 'Jihad' or J'had..
>
>From a muslim web site...Argue with them, I really don't care:
>
>TO PARADISE - via THE JEHAD IN KASHMIR!. -
Oh, for fuck's sake, quit whinging about spelling.
Since it's transliterated, any reasonable phonetic spelling is
acceptable. cf Czar/Tsar.
Now fuck off.
thread *plonk*ed
--
James Farrar
Ian Roberts
>
> >...I want to stress that these guys are religious men. Peaceful men.
> >They were not trouble-makers. They were men of the cloth.
>
> Obviously you don't know the meaning of the word "Jehad", as used by Muslims.
>
> TK Pasio
Surely judging someone by their religion is racist in itself. To take
the
christian faith as an example, many examples of intolerance can be found
in the
name of religion. Remember Thomas de Torquemada (founder of the Spanish
Inquisition). Even within christianity subdivisions can be found.
Let us refrain from criticising people just because of there beliefs. If
people
have to be judged then judge them by their actions.
David Farrier
described as a long white shirt, possibly a "thobe" worn by most Arabs in
Saudi Arabia, with a brown shawl, possibly a "sheit" worn in the wiinter,
and they had beards but no moustache (rather like some Germans).
Where is the leap to the conclusion that they were "religious men"?
For the nit-pickers the phonetic words "thobe", "sheit", "Jehad", "Fatwah"
are arabic words, so how can they have a correct English spelling?
It was an avoidable show of racism but don;t you think it's been blown out
of all proportion.
Remember in Saudi Arabia ALL Christian services held in private compounds on
Sundays are strictly forbidden (and gatecrashed). The religious police whip
any shopkeeper that doesn't empty his shop within a couple of minutes of
prayer call (5 times a day). No Jewish or Sikh people are allowed into S.A.
In my day no ship (yes, ship) was allowed into our port in the Gulf if it
had EVER been to Israel regardless of previous owners/country of operation!
Condemn religious/racial conflict, but keep an open mind.
Let's get back to buses.
Rant over
Dave Farrier
> >On Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:27:14 -0000, in uk.local.london "Tristan White"
> ><Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >>...I want to stress that these guys are religious men. Peaceful men.
> >>They were not trouble-makers. They were men of the cloth.
> >
> >Obviously you don't know the meaning of the word "Jehad", as used by
Muslims.
>
> And don't forget "Fatwah", the death sentence imposed on people if they
happen
> to criticise the simplistic world view and beliefs of those "peaceful
> men of the cloth" over in Iran etc. Any racism that muslims get here is
> nothing compared to what some muslim nations dish out in their own
intolerant
> societies not only to other nationalities but to their own people
especially
> women, using religious teachings as an excuse for control.
>
Ivor D. Jones
<stev...@clara.co.uk> writes
>Yes it is racism and I applaud your intention to take action. The incident
>would not have happened if the two men had been white.
>
While I would not in ANY way condone what happened here, can any of us
be ABSOLUTELY sure about what would or would not have happened had the
two elderly gentlemen been white?
--
Regards
Ivor D. Jones
ivor....@europa1.demon.co.uk
Rosbif
timi the tosspot <tim....@rsole.btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:88mqr2$bm8$2...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
> David Farrier wrote in message <88mo3o$53$2...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> >In my day no ship (yes, ship) was allowed into our port in the Gulf
if it
> >had EVER been to Israel regardless of previous owners/country of
operation!
> >Condemn religious/racial conflict, but keep an open mind.
> >Let's get back to buses.
> >Rant over
> >Dave Farrier
> it is true that ships could not call at most gulf ports if
> they had israeli portcalls listed on the log.
> on the other hand, an open mind was kept by all,
> and business continued as usual.
> the difficulty is to differentiate between hypocrisy,
> commercialism, racialism, and truth.
> rather anyone else but me.
>
Hear hear. Truth: such a little word, with so much weight on its slender
shoulders.
Our observations, distorted by the fisheye lens of our prejudice,
transmogrified by our cognitive processes and passed through the
AutoComplete function of our cerebral cortex, plop out the back passage
named "opinion". Let's not confuse the raw material with the product.
Tristán White
>You may not be a coward as you point out but you certainly are something of
a
>liberal bigot. Your repetitive denigration of people based simply on the
>geography of their residence makes that quite clear. Where you a resident
of
>the US you would doubtless be one of those who believe that all people who
>live in the south are racist.
>You might consider first mending your own ways before you demand that
others
>mend theirs. One man's opinion, of course. Yours may differ.
Way hayy! this came out of nowhere! How dare you make assumptions on my
beliefs! Pray tell me sir where I have repetitively denigrated people based
on the geography of their residence, please!
Yes, I am a liberal. Bigoted though is one thing I am not IMNSHO. I am just
concerned when I see racism and no one does anything about it. Perhaps even
more worrying is when someone (like myself) tries to do something, they get
flamed by someone who calls me a bigot!
It just furthers the argument that these days people are too scared to come
out and speak up for others. However, I am strong enough to resist your
name-calling and anyone else for that matter. :-((
stephen tweed
aveandpat.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>It was an avoidable show of racism but don;t you think it's been blown out
>of all proportion.
>Remember in Saudi Arabia ALL Christian services held in private compounds on
>Sundays are strictly forbidden (and gatecrashed). The religious police whip
>any shopkeeper that doesn't empty his shop within a couple of minutes of
>prayer call (5 times a day). No Jewish or Sikh people are allowed into S.A.
>had EVER been to Israel regardless of previous owners/country of operation!
>
>Condemn religious/racial conflict, but keep an open mind.
>Let's get back to buses.
Bloody hell! I'm glad I'm a pagan bus driver.:->
--
The moving finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on:
nor all thy piety nor wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.
http://www.greenpen.demon.co.uk
fre...@ah.who.really.cares.eh
>Yes, I am a liberal. Bigoted though is one thing I am not IMNSHO. I am just
>concerned when I see racism and no one does anything about it. Perhaps even
>more worrying is when someone (like myself) tries to do something, they get
>flamed by someone who calls me a bigot!
>It just furthers the argument that these days people are too scared to come
>out and speak up for others. However, I am strong enough to resist your
>name-calling and anyone else for that matter. :-((
Yeah , I bet you like speaking out about certain racist events. 'Course the
problem with you fucking liberals is that when its the other way around
(ethnics having a go at or beating up white guys) you lot don't give a
bleeding toss. Its never rascism then oh no, either the whites did something
to deserve it or its just a straight forward barny. You lot make me fuckin
sick. If it had been an ethnic driver having a go at 2 old white men would you
have been writing off your Mr Outraged-Liberal-From-Islington letter then?
Bollocks would you!
John Sullivan
<ro...@indigo.ie> writes
>On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:33:35 GMT, fre...@ah.who.really.cares.eh wrote:
>
>
>>Yeah ,
><snip>
>
>BEEP BEEP! TROLL ALERT!
>(Boring)
Or is it, maybe, that you sense that the dialogue may just become a
little beyond you, intellectually?
--
John Sullivan
Zobo Kolonie
>
> out and speak up for others. However, I am strong enough to resist your
> name-calling and anyone else for that matter. :-((
>
Tristán, you're a big, fat, smelly, halitosis ridden bottom burp.
So there.
:-)
ZK
Tristán White
<38c104c6....@news.fdn.com>...
>If you wish to refer back to your post you might note two remarks; 1) the
>reference to the probable residence of the woman with child who you spoke
of
>in a rather colorful way and 2) a reference to the local from which you
>presumed some bus drivers are hired. Your language conveyed a bigoted
attitude
>based on an individuals residence in both instances. Not all persons who
live
>in less than desirable neighborhoods are themselves any less than desirable
in
>there behavior than the rest of us. If misinterpreted your remarks I'm
hopeful
>that you will accept my apology. If I didn't then the ball is in your court
>and you may need to make some small attitude adjustment.
No, I think it's you who misinterpreted my remarks -- no hard feelings.
Re-reading them, I can see they are open to misinterpretation. And since I
take it you are not from London (I gather that from your US spelling of
Neighbourbood and Behaviour... this is not meant to be a generalisation or a
criticism, just an observation... like we all make), then I understand that
you're not familiar with the East End. Which, as it happens, I love for the
most part. I'll explain.
I too am from this "less than desirable neighbourhood". I am an EastEnder. I
love it, I love the friendliness of most of the people. As soon as we moved
in our neighbours came over to meet us and welcome us to the Neighbourhood,
which is something very very unusual in other richer areas. I too am
relatively poor, working for a charity, but I enjoy the job which is why I'm
sticking to it, although maybe not for much longer as one day we want to
have kids and my wife would like to give up work. Anyway, that's irrelevant
in this e-mail.
Now, the East End is gifted with having one of the best mixes of different
cultures in Britain. It always has been a haven for minorities... ever since
the Jews made their mark here in the 1890s and built some beautiful
synagogues, cemeteries etc. At the moment, as well as the locals (known as
Cockneys who have been here forever), there are many Somalis, Ghanaians,
Nigerians, Afro-Caribbeans, Muslims, Arabs, Indians and Bangladeshis
(particularly the latter: one whole area called East Spitalfields has
recently been renamed Bangla Town, and all the sign posts are in
Gujarat/Urdu/Panjabi). It's a wonderful mish-mash of cultures, one I relish.
I like the fact that my local cinema (the Boleyn) only shows films in Hindi,
it makes the area more exciting, different to the rest of England. You see,
English/British culture is a bit of a nonentity these days. Yes, you have
the brilliant YBAs (Young British Artists) like Damien Hurst or Tracey Emin
who have caused a stir recently on both sides of the Atlantic, as well as a
superb music scene (indie, electronic, britpop, etc), and a great fashion
scene (London Fashion Week, on at the moment, is one of the highlights of
the world calendar). London's restaurants are getting praise left right and
centre and are no longer the laughing stock they used to be..... But this is
more thanks to the symbiosis of lots of different cultures than it is to one
single culture. British culture really doesn't exist any more, nor was it
ever up to much to be honest IMHO. This is going to piss some people off on
this list, those who feel strongly about Britain etc., but I don't really
care... I'm a European first, and an Englishman second.
Anyway, as you can imagine, some of those Cockneys who have been here for
donkeys' years are not altogether happy with the immigration, with the fact
that 10,000 Somalis recently got on the council housing list immediately
while their granny has still got rising damn and a leaking gasket. They
don't even stop to consider why those 10,000 Somalis urgently needed
housing, nor what they were running away from in their own countries.
Racists are narrow-minded idiots. There, that's a generalisation for ya, put
that in yer pipe and smoke it! ;-)
So the NF (National Front) and the BNP (British National Party)
unfortunately have a lot of support in the East End. These are Nazi
sympathisers who believe in Hitler and want to rid Britain of anyone who is
not a WASP. There was even a scare when a BNP guy was elected to a local
council in the Isle of Dogs (part of the East End). So, as you can see for
yourself, I am not generalising when I say that there really are some nasty
types out there. And more so than in the rest of the country, where there is
no one from these parties in the local councils, not even close.
As you can imagine, there was an uproar. The Anti Nazi League took to the
streets to protest, the skin-headed Nazis burnt down Bangladeshi shops and
restaurants in Brick Lane, it was absolutely horrible (at the time, I was
living on Whitechapel Road and saw everything.)
I now live in Plaistow, as I said. Gorgeous neighbours, a little old lady on
one side and a really nice Caribbean guy on the other. It's a lovely street,
none of the NF types you hear about. We have a good old laugh together, and
we are all very much against the British Nationalists -- naturally.
So, when I see a racist, I expose him/her. Is that such a big deal? Because
otherwise they won't learn, and their kids won't learn. Is it being a bigot,
to try and show racists that We Disapprove? If a racist loses a job because
of his racism, it will teach him a valuable lesson.
Recent current affairs in Austria will show you what can happen if people
stand back and do nothing. I will never stand back and do nothing, when
faced with racist behaviour. As I think you can guess.
Now, as it happens (and I know this because, as I said, I live in the area)
the local bus company has been recruiting willy-nilly. They are desperate
for bus-drivers. I know this from their ads in the local paper, from
chatting to the bus-conductors on the 15 when I go home, from people's
gossip down the pub. They need drivers, and they are not being as selective
as they used to. They are not checking their candidates' backgrounds to see
whether they have had any involvement with racist crime. They just need
drivers.
So it is up to the customers, people like myself, to tell the Customer
Services of the bus company that a particular driver has behaved in a
disgusting behaviour. Fair enough, isn't it? Wouldn't you? Is it really so
wrong to grass someone up who is being insulting to their darker-skinned
customers, thinking they can get away with it because the boss isn't
looking?
In the UK there is a lot of racism, a lot of British Bulldog mentality, and
it needs to be stamped out. This is a great country but it has its terrible
faults sometimes. The police force, like yours in some areas (cue San Fran)
is often very right-wing and, as it was termed a few years ago, suffers from
"institutionalised racism". See
http://www.oneworld.org/news/reports/stephen_lawrence.html for an
explanation. Now, I am not generalising, I know quite a few policemen who
are absolutely lovely people, and they'd be the first people I would call if
I were in trouble.
Something needs to be done about racism in this country and if we all do our
little bit, like I'm doing, then this world will be a better place. For all
of us.
So I take it you must have misunderstood me. No hard feelings. However, I've
just spotted a troll post from fre...@ah.who.really.cares.eh and I think
I'll give him a piece of my mind! He's in the UK and has no excuse for what
he says!
All the best
(And no, I don't think everyone in the Deep South is a racist. In the same
way that I know most people in the East End are lovely gorgeous people. But
the racist element always rears its ugly head and makes it seem larger than
it really is. Lets show the world that they are nothing, let's not let them
think that they can get away with their hatred, that it's OK to be racist.
Racism is WRONG. No buts.)
TRISTÁN WHITE
from the East End of London Town.... :-)
Tristán White
>problem with you fucking liberals is that when its the other way around
>(ethnics having a go at or beating up white guys) you lot don't give a
>bleeding toss. Its never rascism then oh no, either the whites did
something
>to deserve it or its just a straight forward barny. You lot make me fuckin
>sick. If it had been an ethnic driver having a go at 2 old white men would
you
>have been writing off your Mr Outraged-Liberal-From-Islington letter then?
>Bollocks would you!
OK, I can tell you're a troll immediately. But I'll answer you.
(a) yes, I might complain if it was the other way around, because it would
still be ageist. In the same way that I would complain if the driver had
been insulting to gay people, etc. I HATE DISCRIMINATION.
(b) read my reply to Delaware, beginning "My long Reply to Delaware about
the East End". It explains everything.
(c) you sound exactly like the sort of person I have been going on about. If
I'm wrong, deny it. And don't hide behind anonymity, coward.
TRISTÁN WHITE
Zobo Kolonie
> (a) yes, I might complain if it was the other way around, because it would
> still be ageist.
>
Or are you far to politically correct to accuse some raghead or other wog of
being racist?
ZK
Zobo Kolonie
> I too am from this "less than desirable neighbourhood". I am an EastEnder.
I
>
You told me you were Spanish the other night.
ZK
Zobo Kolonie
news:88tts6$jik$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> cultures in Britain. It always has been a haven for minorities... ever
since
>
> the Jews made their mark here in the 1890s and built some beautiful
> synagogues, cemeteries etc. At the moment, as well as the locals (known as
> Cockneys who have been here forever), there are many Somalis, Ghanaians,
> Nigerians, Afro-Caribbeans, Muslims, Arabs, Indians and Bangladeshis
>
That sounds like a curse.
> (particularly the latter: one whole area called East Spitalfields has
> recently been renamed Bangla Town, and all the sign posts are in
> Gujarat/Urdu/Panjabi). It's a wonderful mish-mash of cultures, one I
relish.
> I like the fact that my local cinema (the Boleyn) only shows films in
Hindi,
>
If I spoke Hindi I'd want a cinema that showed Hindi films... otherwise...
well what the fuck?
Load of crap. Only any good if you're a Hindi speaker.
> it makes the area more exciting, different to the rest of England. You
see,
> English/British culture is a bit of a nonentity these days. Yes, you have
> the brilliant YBAs (Young British Artists) like Damien Hurst or Tracey
Emin
>
That acronym is poncy.
There's nothing brilliant about either of those so called artists, they are
a cancer.
> who have caused a stir recently on both sides of the Atlantic, as well as
a
> superb music scene (indie, electronic, britpop, etc), and a great fashion
>
The London music scene is so far pretty crap IME, whatever happened to
chilled out rock clubs, not metal bars full of screaming teenagers but yer
actual pukka rock club. Sadly lacking in London as far as I can tell so
far.
> scene (London Fashion Week, on at the moment, is one of the highlights of
> the world calendar).
>
The only thing about the fashion week here that is a highlight is the amount
that the British media waffle on about it. It would seem that in reality it
is a non event.
Having said that, fashion shows should be burned down anyway.
> London's restaurants are getting praise left right and
> centre and are no longer the laughing stock they used to be
>
Get with the programme, London's restaurants have been on the up for nearly
20 years now.
> ..... But this is
> more thanks to the symbiosis of lots of different cultures than it is to
one
> single culture.
>
Yes, largely European cultures. This 'symbiosis' you speak of has fuck all
to do with eastern cultures, it's pretty much wholly European IMO.
Of course, we do get the wonderful eastern tradition of going for a curry
after 15 pints of lager these days.
> British culture really doesn't exist any more, nor was it
> ever up to much to be honest IMHO. This is going to piss some people off
on
> this list, those who feel strongly about Britain etc., but I don't really
> care... I'm a European first, and an Englishman second.
>
"British culture" wtf does that mean?
Bollox.
You'll be an Englishman first, second, third and fourth else you wont be an
Englishman at all when I have my way.
I'm not European and if you want to be European then you can fuck off to
Europe and stink of piss there instead.
> Anyway, as you can imagine, some of those Cockneys who have been here for
> donkeys' years are not altogether happy with the immigration, with the
fact
> that 10,000 Somalis recently got on the council housing list immediately
> while their granny has still got rising damn and a leaking gasket. They
> don't even stop to consider why those 10,000 Somalis urgently needed
> housing, nor what they were running away from in their own countries.
>
Said cock-a-knees had every right to be annoyed.
Who gives a fuck about the Somalis? I don't, not if it means pissing off
the incumbent population.
Bollox to them, let them rot, make sure the locals feel appreciated first,
then you can worry about the foreigners.
> Racists are narrow-minded idiots. There, that's a generalisation for ya,
put
> that in yer pipe and smoke it! ;-)
>
They're not narrow minded, you're just plain stupid.
> So the NF (National Front) and the BNP (British National Party)
> unfortunately have a lot of support in the East End.
>
Guess what... that makes limp wristed liberals like >you< wrong not the
local BNP voting population.
If nancy boys like you would stop and think for half a second and stop
trampling all over local populations to give hand outs to bunches of wogs
and setting up the worst perceptions possible then just maybe the WASP dudes
in the East End would stop voting BNP.
Of course, that would be far too simple wouldn't it? And you wouldn't have
anyway of putting on a good show of being "oh so caring" and feeling smug
about yourselves.
> These are Nazi
> sympathisers who believe in Hitler and want to rid Britain of anyone who
is
> not a WASP. There was even a scare when a BNP guy was elected to a local
> council in the Isle of Dogs (part of the East End). So, as you can see for
> yourself, I am not generalising when I say that there really are some
nasty
> types out there. And more so than in the rest of the country, where there
is
> no one from these parties in the local councils, not even close.
> As you can imagine, there was an uproar. The Anti Nazi League took to the
> streets to protest, the skin-headed Nazis burnt down Bangladeshi shops and
> restaurants in Brick Lane, it was absolutely horrible (at the time, I was
> living on Whitechapel Road and saw everything.)
>
Oh yes that's right, the evil BNP did all the bad things and the anti mob
never once put so much as a toe out of line.
It was that anti mob bunch that tore Plumstead and Welling to pieces. Not
the BNP.
> I now live in Plaistow, as I said. Gorgeous neighbours, a little old lady
on
> one side and a really nice Caribbean guy on the other. It's a lovely
street,
> none of the NF types you hear about. We have a good old laugh together,
and
> we are all very much against the British Nationalists -- naturally.
> So, when I see a racist, I expose him/her. Is that such a big deal?
Because
> otherwise they won't learn, and their kids won't learn. Is it being a
bigot,
> to try and show racists that We Disapprove? If a racist loses a job
because
> of his racism, it will teach him a valuable lesson.
>
And of course, some ponced up liberal like you is going to decide for us
what is racism and what is not, then you can go around persecuting your own
conscience by firing white people who might just have a problem with certain
members of "our coloured brethren".
> Recent current affairs in Austria will show you what can happen if people
> stand back and do nothing. I will never stand back and do nothing, when
> faced with racist behaviour. As I think you can guess.
>
Oh no, but it does mean that we can stand back and discriminate against a
duely elected politician.
Well that's alright then.
Pillock.
> Now, as it happens (and I know this because, as I said, I live in the
area)
> the local bus company has been recruiting willy-nilly. They are desperate
> for bus-drivers. I know this from their ads in the local paper, from
> chatting to the bus-conductors on the 15 when I go home, from people's
> gossip down the pub. They need drivers, and they are not being as
selective
> as they used to. They are not checking their candidates' backgrounds to
see
> whether they have had any involvement with racist crime. They just need
> drivers.
>
Oh so are we at that stage now? Checking peoples' background for racist
crimes?
No good just checking for a criminal background, got to be specific have we?
[Snip]
> Something needs to be done about racism in this country and if we all do
our
> little bit, like I'm doing, then this world will be a better place. For
all
> of us.
>
People like you only serve to make things worse. It's a self serving need
to have some issue to bang your drum about.
You trample all over the feelings of the rest of us and justify because
"racism must be stamped out!".
ZK - pissed off - Not a member of the BNP either thank you very much
Tristán White
>Oh but not because it would still be racist?
>Or are you far to politically correct to accuse some raghead or other wog
of
>being racist?
I like to think I would. I would have to be in that situation to know for
sure. As it happens, I never have been, because I have never seen it (it is
far far rarer, and hence a much smaller and less immediate problem).
Tristán White
It just goes to show how wonderfully multicultural the East End is!
I was born in Herts, my parents moved over to Spain to live as ex-pats when
I was a few months old. They are English themselves.
I was brought up in Spain until I was 18, then came over here. I've been
here now for 11 years. I still go back to Spain 2 or 3 times a year.
Because of my strange upbringing, and the fact that I speak Spanish and
Valencian as well as English, I feel above all European. When I was in
Spain, it was obvious from my fair skin and blonde hair (I had more of it
back then!) that I was a foreigner. And over here, with my laid-back
Mediterranean attitude and my weird eating hours, I was a foreigner. One
thing no one can take away from me is the fact I am, foremost, a EUROPEAN.
Hence my very pro-Euro stance which you know only too well (see ULL passim).
So yes, I'm often more in tune with Spain than I am with England/Britain.
But above all, I am in tune with Europe. Oh, and as you know, my wife is
Irish. And I am a pretty good French speaker as well. It's all made me much
more aware of being a little less jingoistic about other nations. And that
(jingoism/xenophobia) is one of the most unattractive traits of the
English/British.
I never call myself Spanish, but I often say I feel Spanish. Technically,
since my passport was British, and I was born in Herts, I am British.
Although I was very very happy when I could change it to a European
passport!
Anyway,
Cheerio, slán, adiós, au revoir, adéu .....and all that jazz
TRISTÁN
Zobo Kolonie
> Zobo Kolonie wrote in message ...
> >You told me you were Spanish the other night.
>
>
> It just goes to show how wonderfully multicultural the East End is!
>
In my area we've got Australians, New Zealanders, Italians, Lebanese, Irish,
Scottish, South Africans, Americans, Canadians, French, Norwegian, Danish,
Swedish, Dutch, Welsh, and others. That little lot represent the
nationalities of my friends and acquaintances alone! I am sure that if you
looked into Kew in more detail you would find far more than that.
Good mix, all gets along OK.
> thing no one can take away from me is the fact I am, foremost, a EUROPEAN.
>
Ick, we will have to agree to differ then.
> more aware of being a little less jingoistic about other nations. And that
> (jingoism/xenophobia) is one of the most unattractive traits of the
> English/British.
>
Actually, suitably presented, I think it's one of the most wonderful traits
of the English.
The bad side of it is when it's used to deliberately inflict hardship on
foreigners or when we take it abroad with us.
I was forever getting annoyed with Englishmen in Norway who would sidle up
and say 'what about these bloody Norwegians eh? They're really backward
aren't they? Not like us English eh pal?' I'd usually point out that some
of 'these bloody Norwegians' are my friends, now piss off and stop being so
rude about your host country.
> I never call myself Spanish, but I often say I feel Spanish. Technically,
> since my passport was British, and I was born in Herts, I am British.
> Although I was very very happy when I could change it to a European
> passport!
>
Yuck... give me an English passport any day.
> Anyway,
> Cheerio, slán, adiós, au revoir, adéu .....and all that jazz
>
Ha det bra... and all that punk.
ZK
Zobo Kolonie
> Zobo Kolonie wrote in message ...
skin colour of the driver and the passengers involved.
Simple.
So simple infact that I suspect you are being deliberately careful to avoid
admitting to yourself that your politically correct liberalism would not
permit you to criticise a coloured bloke for being racist.
Just a thought.
ZK
Tristán White
>If I spoke Hindi I'd want a cinema that showed Hindi films... otherwise...
>well what the fuck?
>Load of crap. Only any good if you're a Hindi speaker.
No. Wrong. There are two other English cinemas about 4 minutes drive away
(Stratford Picture House, Beckton Showcase) and other two about 10 minutes
(Stepney Green, Barking). But if you are ready to appreciate other cultures
*as well as* (nb. I did not say instead of) your own and that given us by
Hollywood (irony here intended), then you have the option. I have seen
"Darr!", I have seen "Ar Ham al Salwk!", I have seen "Salaam Bombay" and a
number of other Bollywood productions. Some of them are very good. Better
than a lot of blockbuster shite. If you refuse to see a film because of the
subtitles, then you are missing out of some great stuff.
>There's nothing brilliant about either of those so called artists, they are
>a cancer.
Matter of opinion. My wife would agree with you, so I'm not going to start
arguing with you! I like them though.
>The London music scene is so far pretty crap IME, whatever happened to
>chilled out rock clubs, not metal bars full of screaming teenagers but yer
>actual pukka rock club. Sadly lacking in London as far as I can tell so
>far.
Again, matter of opinion. The techno/electronica scene at the moment is damn
exciting in my opinion, but since you're more into rock I can see your
point.
>The only thing about the fashion week here that is a highlight is the
amount
>that the British media waffle on about it. It would seem that in reality
it
>is a non event.
>Having said that, fashion shows should be burned down anyway.
Bad hair day, right?.... ;-)
>Yes, largely European cultures. This 'symbiosis' you speak of has fuck all
>to do with eastern cultures, it's pretty much wholly European IMO.
>Of course, we do get the wonderful eastern tradition of going for a curry
>after 15 pints of lager these days.
LOL. Too true. But actually I do disagree. Were you at the Chinatown New
Years celebrations? What did you do for Diwali? This is all part of our
culture too now. And it's great. As for the food, well last week I ate Thai,
Malaysian, Chinese and Bangladeshi (as well as Italian and, last night,
Modern British) so I can't really agree with it being confined to Europe!!
<SNIP>
>I'm not European and if you want to be European then you can fuck off to
>Europe and stink of piss there instead.
So so different to your viewpoint a year ago. If I were really cruel I'd dig
them out from deja.com and post them here, but I don't want to start a war
and doing that sort of thing is far too brymoid anyway.
>Said cock-a-knees had every right to be annoyed.
>Who gives a fuck about the Somalis? I don't, not if it means pissing off
>the incumbent population.
>Bollox to them, let them rot, make sure the locals feel appreciated first,
>then you can worry about the foreigners.
Oh dear, oh deary me. I am sure you're taking the piss, you're good at that.
I hope you're taking the piss anyway. I don't think you're really that
extreme. Bad hair day, as I said.
>They're not narrow minded, you're just plain stupid.
Hmmm.
>Guess what... that makes limp wristed liberals like >you< wrong not the
>local BNP voting population.
How do you work that one out!!?!
>If nancy boys like you would stop and think for half a second and stop
>trampling all over local populations to give hand outs to bunches of wogs
>and setting up the worst perceptions possible then just maybe the WASP
dudes
>in the East End would stop voting BNP.
"Wog"? Perhaps you should go and join the lamebrains down at the Swan Pub in
Stratford. I know you have a problem with Romanians and gypsies, and I have
always made my feelings quite clear on this respect... I have always
disagreed with your obsession. But what you are writing today is quite
insulting. Especially to any black and asian people on the groups, of which
there are many more than you may think. Now Zobo I know you're not really
racist, but you're playing a dangerous game. Being devil's advocate is one
thing. Becoming a devil in you're own right is another. Careful Zobo you
could hurt a lot of people's feelings. I'm thick-skinned and can take it, so
can you, but not everyone is. Particularly Usenet newbies. I don't want to
see these groups or any others for that matter turn into reservoirs of race
hatred. Your reasons for being pissed off at gypsies, somalis, etc., or for
agreeing that the cockneys are right to be pissed off, is bordering on
racism in itself.
<SNIP>
>And of course, some ponced up liberal like you is going to decide for us
>what is racism and what is not, then you can go around persecuting your own
>conscience by firing white people who might just have a problem with
certain
>members of "our coloured brethren".
For fuck's sake Zobo, it is our duty, if we have any humanity/respect, to
look after those who are being discriminated against. Perhaps you like to
cross the street, close your eyes and pretend it doesn't happen. Well I
don't! And it's thanks to the millions like me that the BNP were not
re-elected. Being an ostrich all the time is not a way of life I cherish.
There may come a time when you are in trouble in the street, and you will
appreciate someone calling the police and catching whoever did you a
disservice. Being an ostrich is not an option in my books. I would help you
in the same way as I would help anyone.
>Oh no, but it does mean that we can stand back and discriminate against a
>duely elected politician.
>Well that's alright then.
>Pillock.
So you think Mr Haider's Austria should remain in the EU then? interesting!
I'm not saying it's our duty to remove an elected politician from power,
albeit one that only got in because the opponents were too apathetic
(exactly what happened in the Isle of Dogs). Haider got in because of his
charm, something that Hitler was known for in the early days. But even then,
I'm not saying it's our business to stop him from being Austria's premier.
But it sure is our business to stop Austria's membership of the EU.
Otherwise, what kind of message will that give the other countries? Do you
really want eg. Le Penn in power in France?
>Oh so are we at that stage now? Checking peoples' background for racist
>crimes?
>No good just checking for a criminal background, got to be specific have
we?
I think racist, violent and sexual crimes should be checked if you are a
public servant (I'm using this expression in the sense of serving the
public). Fair enough, isn't it?
>People like you only serve to make things worse. It's a self serving need
>to have some issue to bang your drum about.
>You trample all over the feelings of the rest of us and justify because
>"racism must be stamped out!".
Who is "us" in this case? And what is wrong in your eyes about standing up
against people who are positively horrible (ie racists). Are you excusing
racism? If so, and if you really mean it (ie. you're not taking the piss)
well I must say you've surprised me. But I'm sure you're just pissing
around.
>ZK - pissed off - Not a member of the BNP either thank you very much
TW pissed off too. And hoping you won't ever be tempted to join them. Some
of the crap you've come out with today, if you excuse my harsh tone, is very
nationalistic.
Zobo Kolonie
>
Gotcha!
Knew I could get you to bite (remember your comment from earlier).
I'll crank the tone back now :-)
> Hey heyy Zobo, this is most unfluffy of you. I'll comment....
>
See above.
> >If I spoke Hindi I'd want a cinema that showed Hindi films...
otherwise...
> >well what the fuck?
> >Load of crap. Only any good if you're a Hindi speaker.
>
>
> No. Wrong. There are two other English cinemas about 4 minutes drive away
> (Stratford Picture House, Beckton Showcase) and other two about 10 minutes
> (Stepney Green, Barking). But if you are ready to appreciate other
cultures
> *as well as* (nb. I did not say instead of) your own and that given us by
> Hollywood (irony here intended), then you have the option. I have seen
> "Darr!", I have seen "Ar Ham al Salwk!", I have seen "Salaam Bombay" and a
> number of other Bollywood productions. Some of them are very good. Better
> than a lot of blockbuster shite. If you refuse to see a film because of
the
> subtitles, then you are missing out of some great stuff.
>
I've seen a few Bollywood productions, not my scene and frankly I don't care
if your local cinemas show them or not, if I don't like them then I can
always vote with my feet (as indeed I do).
> >There's nothing brilliant about either of those so called artists, they
are
> >a cancer.
>
> Matter of opinion. My wife would agree with you, so I'm not going to start
> arguing with you! I like them though.
>
Takes all sorts.
> >The London music scene is so far pretty crap IME, whatever happened to
> >chilled out rock clubs, not metal bars full of screaming teenagers but
yer
> >actual pukka rock club. Sadly lacking in London as far as I can tell so
> >far.
>
> Again, matter of opinion. The techno/electronica scene at the moment is
damn
> exciting in my opinion, but since you're more into rock I can see your
> point.
>
Shame, I was half hoping you would come back to me with a list of examples
to prove me wrong :-(
> >The only thing about the fashion week here that is a highlight is the
> amount
> >that the British media waffle on about it. It would seem that in reality
> it
> >is a non event.
> >Having said that, fashion shows should be burned down anyway.
>
> Bad hair day, right?.... ;-)
>
Nope, very tired, but hair is doing OK today... being taken out for beers n
that by some 'can we please find you a new job' types later... having
nothing better to do tonight I'll freeload :-)
> >Yes, largely European cultures. This 'symbiosis' you speak of has fuck
all
> >to do with eastern cultures, it's pretty much wholly European IMO.
> >Of course, we do get the wonderful eastern tradition of going for a curry
> >after 15 pints of lager these days.
>
> LOL. Too true. But actually I do disagree. Were you at the Chinatown New
> Years celebrations? What did you do for Diwali? This is all part of our
> culture too now. And it's great. As for the food, well last week I ate
Thai,
> Malaysian, Chinese and Bangladeshi (as well as Italian and, last night,
> Modern British) so I can't really agree with it being confined to Europe!!
>
To me the various festivals that happen in London but originate from the far
east etc are a passing sideshow, I can take them or leave them, wouldn't
usually go out of my way to indulge in them, but don't object to them either
and have watched from the sidelines when I've happened to be in the right
place at the right time.
> <SNIP>
> >I'm not European and if you want to be European then you can fuck off to
> >Europe and stink of piss there instead.
>
> So so different to your viewpoint a year ago. If I were really cruel I'd
dig
> them out from deja.com and post them here, but I don't want to start a war
> and doing that sort of thing is far too brymoid anyway.
>
I've gone off Europe. Told you that already.
It's a shame, I'd like to see an integrated Europe and all that, but with
the way things stand (beef, financial markets, German corporate legislation
etc etc etc) I simply cannot subscribe to it any more, let them grow up and
become civilised then we can talk to them again, but in the meantime they
can fuck off.
> >Said cock-a-knees had every right to be annoyed.
> >Who gives a fuck about the Somalis? I don't, not if it means pissing off
> >the incumbent population.
> >Bollox to them, let them rot, make sure the locals feel appreciated
first,
> >then you can worry about the foreigners.
>
> Oh dear, oh deary me. I am sure you're taking the piss, you're good at
that.
> I hope you're taking the piss anyway. I don't think you're really that
> extreme. Bad hair day, as I said.
>
Not taking the piss actually, there's a perfectly valid point. It goes
something like this:
You have an existing population.
You promote a bunch of Somali refugees (for example) to the top of the
housing list.
Immediately you have made the existing population feel undervalued, second
class and rather miffed.
This means that you got it wrong.
I can't say I blame the denziens of East London being decidedly upset when
they see groups of foreigners whos' language they do not speak and whos'
culture they do not understand being moved into their area with scant regard
for the needs of the existing population.
The plight of the refugees is utterly irrelevant too. Does that shock you?
It shouldn't, the point is about the reality, the reality being that unless
you manage the situation properly you will get it wrong and disaffect the
existing population. That's the population that elected you and that you
are supposedly answerable to.
I don't have the perfect solution but I do know that better management is
the key.
> >They're not narrow minded, you're just plain stupid.
>
> Hmmm.
>
Ok, that was rough, but I do think you miss the point by a mile.
> >Guess what... that makes limp wristed liberals like >you< wrong not the
> >local BNP voting population.
>
> How do you work that one out!!?!
>
Simple, the people vote, it's called democracy, allegedly this is a good
thing. The people get pissed off (see above), along comes BNP with policies
that seem sympathetic to the insecure and undervalued feelings of the local
white populace, so what happens? Naturally they start voting BNP. That's
not wrong, how can it be wrong for someone to vote for a political party?
Whatever else the BNP is, it's a political party. Now I personally don't
have any time for the BNP but I will stand up and defend anyones right to
vote for them. If you don't like the fact that people are voting for them
then you really need to go and look at the root cause. There are far too
many people (yourself included I suspect) looking at the world through rose
tinted glasses and not making local populations in areas like Tower Hamlets
>feel< as if they count for anything, they are allowed to >feel< as if they
count for less than the incoming refugees and other foreign nationals. Now
the BNP are undoubtedly using propoganda to promote these feelings, but hard
luck, that's the price you pay for democracy, it's down to local authorities
to stop and take stock, instead of addressing the BNP just from the ethnic
minority point of view, try addressing the issues that are pissing off the
white people too.
> >If nancy boys like you would stop and think for half a second and stop
> >trampling all over local populations to give hand outs to bunches of wogs
> >and setting up the worst perceptions possible then just maybe the WASP
> dudes
> >in the East End would stop voting BNP.
>
> "Wog"? Perhaps you should go and join the lamebrains down at the Swan Pub
in
> Stratford.
>
No thanks.
> I know you have a problem with Romanians and gypsies, and I have
> always made my feelings quite clear on this respect... I have always
> disagreed with your obsession.
>
It's not because they are Romanian, it's because of what the do.
They could be Ruritanian for all I care, I'd still hate the fraudulent
vermin.
> But what you are writing today is quite
> insulting. Especially to any black and asian people on the groups, of
which
> there are many more than you may think.
>
It would be so much easier if we had one short word to describe 'black and
asian people'.
Sadly these days, 'wog' is a derogatory term.
Oh well.
> Now Zobo I know you're not really
> racist, but you're playing a dangerous game. Being devil's advocate is one
> thing. Becoming a devil in you're own right is another. Careful Zobo you
> could hurt a lot of people's feelings.
>
Actually, my feelings are already hurt. Lots. About plenty of issues
pertinent to the UK or London.
Not that any bleeding heart liberal gives a fuck about my feelings.
> I'm thick-skinned and can take it, so can you, but not everyone is.
>
You're obviously not as thick skinned as you said earlier :-)
> Particularly Usenet newbies. I don't want to
> see these groups or any others for that matter turn into reservoirs of
race
> hatred. Your reasons for being pissed off at gypsies, somalis, etc., or
for
> agreeing that the cockneys are right to be pissed off, is bordering on
> racism in itself.
>
Well if that's racism, dress me in lederhosen and call me Adolf.
Waving the racism card so easily will ensure that the BNP will get more and
more votes.
Don't you get it yet? There are real, genuine, enfranchised people out
there who are being completely sidelined by the sort of attitudes that you
display.
Perhaps they don't want to bang a drum, wear flowers and hand out
sweeties... ever thought of that? Perhaps they want a Sunday roast,
grandstand on the telly, and a few pints with their mates. Perhaps when
their 'dear aunt Lil' has water pissing down the walls of her council flat
they get rather pissed off when a bunch of Somalis move into the new places
over the road. Perhaps my comments are a gross exageration, but it doesn't
matter, if people perceive things in the same light that I have described
them then they will behave accordingly. It's no good saying 'oh well they
are wrong because...', you have to get them to buy into the ideas too, and
branding them as racists then seemingly (or actually) ignoring their
concerns is >never< going to get them to buy into the ideas. Oh, and the
ideas might have to change a bit too, evolution and all that.
> <SNIP>
> >And of course, some ponced up liberal like you is going to decide for us
> >what is racism and what is not, then you can go around persecuting your
own
> >conscience by firing white people who might just have a problem with
> certain
> >members of "our coloured brethren".
>
> For fuck's sake Zobo, it is our duty, if we have any humanity/respect, to
> look after those who are being discriminated against. Perhaps you like to
> cross the street, close your eyes and pretend it doesn't happen. Well I
> don't! And it's thanks to the millions like me that the BNP were not
> re-elected. Being an ostrich all the time is not a way of life I cherish.
> There may come a time when you are in trouble in the street, and you will
> appreciate someone calling the police and catching whoever did you a
> disservice. Being an ostrich is not an option in my books. I would help
you
> in the same way as I would help anyone.
>
Ahhh it's our duty is it?
Who told you that?
Or did you dream it up all by yourself?
Funny, because I don't remember voting for you to determine what my duties
were.
What you seem to be suggesting is that we arbitrarily dictate behaviour
patterns to people, and in doing so we give the minority groups a lovely big
stick with which they can beat us at will. Of course people being people
there will always be plenty around who will gladly use the big stick we hand
them... it might come as a shock to you, but it's not just white people who
do bad things. The phrase "education not legislation" springs to mind.
Legislate and be damned.
> >Oh no, but it does mean that we can stand back and discriminate against a
> >duely elected politician.
> >Well that's alright then.
> >Pillock.
>
> So you think Mr Haider's Austria should remain in the EU then?
interesting!
>
Yes they should.
There's nothing to stop individual countries from severing diplomatic links,
but since they are a paid up member of the EU and are not currently breaking
any EU rules due to Mr Haider's presence in their government then there
seems to be no reason why we should kick them out.
If Haider actually started persecuting minority groups etc then sure, bomb
him, kick them out of the EU on human rights grounds or whatever... but just
because he's in the government? That's very dictatorial. Or is it
'freedom, democracy and peace, but only when we say so' ?
> I'm not saying it's our duty to remove an elected politician from power,
> albeit one that only got in because the opponents were too apathetic
> (exactly what happened in the Isle of Dogs).
>
How he or the BNP got elected is irrelevant once the deed is done.
> Haider got in because of his
> charm, something that Hitler was known for in the early days. But even
then,
> I'm not saying it's our business to stop him from being Austria's premier.
>
It is if he starts indulging in ethnic cleansing (or genocide as we used to
call it).
> But it sure is our business to stop Austria's membership of the EU.
>
No it isn't.
> Otherwise, what kind of message will that give the other countries? Do you
> really want eg. Le Penn in power in France?
>
The message we send is "hey, we will respect democratic process" or would
you rather we sent the message "we will dictate your internal politics" ?
> >Oh so are we at that stage now? Checking peoples' background for racist
> >crimes?
> >No good just checking for a criminal background, got to be specific have
> we?
>
> I think racist, violent and sexual crimes should be checked if you are a
> public servant (I'm using this expression in the sense of serving the
> public). Fair enough, isn't it?
>
Fair enough I suppose.
> >People like you only serve to make things worse. It's a self serving
need
> >to have some issue to bang your drum about.
> >You trample all over the feelings of the rest of us and justify because
> >"racism must be stamped out!".
>
> Who is "us" in this case? And what is wrong in your eyes about standing up
> against people who are positively horrible (ie racists). Are you excusing
> racism?
>
No I am not excusing racism, surely you are deliberately misinterpreting my
comments.
Perhaps I will hence forth be branded a racist, it wouldn't surprise me...
But why is it that I can happily refer to someone as a fat bastard and
nobody gives a toss, but the second I use the word 'wog' I am a bad man?
I don't make a habit of using the word 'wog' or any of the other derogatory
racial terms, but it's an interesting question all the same.
As much as I am not excusing racism, I'm not excusing the kind of PC crap
that spews out of loony left town halls either. FWIW I lived in LB Greenwich
and helped to vote the loony left in there, something I came to regret.
> If so, and if you really mean it (ie. you're not taking the piss)
> well I must say you've surprised me. But I'm sure you're just pissing
> around.
>
A bit, but there's a serious point in there too.
> >ZK - pissed off - Not a member of the BNP either thank you very much
>
> TW pissed off too. And hoping you won't ever be tempted to join them. Some
> of the crap you've come out with today, if you excuse my harsh tone, is
very
> nationalistic.
>
No way would you ever get me to join the likes of the BNP.
I don't agree with their politics any more than I agree with the loony left
town hall mob.
I am a nationalist though I suppose, but perhaps I should check the
definition of that word rather than my interpretation of it first... hang
on...
1. Devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather
than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign
domination.
Ok, I mean point 1 when I say nationalist. Point 2 is rubbish and point 3
doesn't affect me.
Oh well...
HAND
ZK
Allan Hawdon
: Zobo Kolonie wrote in message ...
:>You told me you were Spanish the other night.
: It just goes to show how wonderfully multicultural the East End is!
: I was born in Herts, my parents moved over to Spain to live as ex-pats when
: I was a few months old. They are English themselves.
: I was brought up in Spain until I was 18, then came over here. I've been
: here now for 11 years. I still go back to Spain 2 or 3 times a year.
: Because of my strange upbringing, and the fact that I speak Spanish and
: Valencian as well as English, I feel above all European. When I was in
Valencian? Is that different fron Catalan? I've never heard of it.
Is it a dialect or a separate language?
: Spain, it was obvious from my fair skin and blonde hair (I had more of it
: back then!) that I was a foreigner. And over here, with my laid-back
: Mediterranean attitude and my weird eating hours, I was a foreigner. One
: thing no one can take away from me is the fact I am, foremost, a EUROPEAN.
: Hence my very pro-Euro stance which you know only too well (see ULL passim).
: So yes, I'm often more in tune with Spain than I am with England/Britain.
: But above all, I am in tune with Europe. Oh, and as you know, my wife is
: Irish. And I am a pretty good French speaker as well. It's all made me much
: more aware of being a little less jingoistic about other nations. And that
: (jingoism/xenophobia) is one of the most unattractive traits of the
: English/British.
If you know Spain & France so well, you'll know that jingoism/xenophobia
is not a peculiarity of the British. Just ask your average Jose Bloggs
en la calle who is the cause of all the woes in Spain. You know the answer
you'll get - Los Moros. Racism is a nasty feature of all human societies,
whatever the colour of their skin. If you want to expand your horizons, I'd
suggest you try getting out to a few non European countries - you could start
with a few Arab countries, Africa, or Latin America - for no paricular reason
than they'd be the easiest to get to from Europe. I can guarantee that,
unless you're walking around with your eyes wrapped in ideological blinkers
that you'll see racism that will make your toes curl.
The world is not a nice place.
Zobo Kolonie
news:88ufjs$6hu$1...@willow.cc.kcl.ac.uk...
>
> If you know Spain & France so well, you'll know that jingoism/xenophobia
> is not a peculiarity of the British. Just ask your average Jose Bloggs
> en la calle who is the cause of all the woes in Spain. You know the answer
> you'll get - Los Moros. Racism is a nasty feature of all human societies,
> whatever the colour of their skin. If you want to expand your horizons,
I'd
> suggest you try getting out to a few non European countries - you could
start
> with a few Arab countries, Africa, or Latin America - for no paricular
reason
> than they'd be the easiest to get to from Europe. I can guarantee that,
> unless you're walking around with your eyes wrapped in ideological
blinkers
> that you'll see racism that will make your toes curl.
> The world is not a nice place.
>
Very well put sir!
I might just grab a copy and keep it for a rainy day :-)
ZK
Allan Hawdon
: Allan Hawdon <uda...@axolotl.kcl.ac.uk> wrote in message
Er, hang on Zobo. I hope I didn't give the impression I was
coming over to your side of the fence. If anything my politics
tend more towards Tristan's; I just feel he can be a little naive,
if well meaning, at times (no offence intended Tristan).
Oh well, suppose I can look forward to the ToD now ...
Can I swap the banana for a last cigar?
And I'm still curious about Valencian.
Tristán White
and I may answer it another time, but I'll pick up on some of it now. Oh,
for the record, a lot of your answer made sense.
<SNIP>
>I can't say I blame the denziens of East London being decidedly upset when
>they see groups of foreigners whos' language they do not speak and whos'
>culture they do not understand being moved into their area with scant
regard
>for the needs of the existing population.
No, I guess not, but that's not my point, really. My point is that people
will not see these foreigners in this light in the first place if they have
a little more respect, a little less xenophobia. Which is where people like
me (anti-racists) step in. Complaining about people like that bus-driver. At
least gradually they get the message that being a racist is a stupid thing
to do.
<SNIP>
>count for less than the incoming refugees and other foreign nationals. Now
>the BNP are undoubtedly using propoganda to promote these feelings, but
hard
>luck, that's the price you pay for democracy, it's down to local
authorities
>to stop and take stock, instead of addressing the BNP just from the ethnic
>minority point of view, try addressing the issues that are pissing off the
>white people too.
I agree with all of this. But what can I do from the local level? I can't
singlehandedly make the local Council listen to both sides of the story? I'm
just an East End citizen. There are only two things I can do:
(a) vote against the BNP - which I do
(b) grass up racists - which I do
It's all I can possibly do, as a single voice in a big hostile world. It's
certainly got you all talking about it, and if there are any people on UTB
for example who were thinking of doing the same as the driver I saw (this is
a hypothesis: UTB people are a great laugh, I've lurked around a while) then
they might think again! Who knows, I might be on their bus! Or someone like
me! ;-)
>It would be so much easier if we had one short word to describe 'black and
>asian people'.
>Sadly these days, 'wog' is a derogatory term.
>Oh well.
Are you so impatient and is life so short that you need a short three letter
word to describe all of these? Why? Why the urge? Black and asian is fine!
Or Ethnic minorities. Or if it must be one word, Ethnics. I don't like
saying "Ethnics" in one word, but it's better than "wog", matey! Get a
modern dictionary, many now have little asterisks or exclamation marks by
the words that have now become pejorative.
>Well if that's racism, dress me in lederhosen and call me Adolf.
Funniest thing you've said all day. :-)
>Ahhh it's our duty is it?
>Who told you that?
>Or did you dream it up all by yourself?
>Funny, because I don't remember voting for you to determine what my duties
>were.
No one told me. It's instinct. Same as it's instinct to help someone who is
in pain. It's manners. It's the right thing to do, for the right reason.
If you see someone being discriminated, it is surely our duty to help that
person. Either that or you're an ostrich.
>There's nothing to stop individual countries from severing diplomatic
links,
>but since they are a paid up member of the EU and are not currently
breaking
>any EU rules due to Mr Haider's presence in their government then there
>seems to be no reason why we should kick them out.
>If Haider actually started persecuting minority groups etc then sure, bomb
>him, kick them out of the EU on human rights grounds or whatever... but
just
>because he's in the government? That's very dictatorial. Or is it
>'freedom, democracy and peace, but only when we say so' ?
Well, if you want to wait until Haider actually does persecute minority
groups then fine. I'm sure he will, it's a shame we have to wait until the
horse pushes the cart before the barndoor, or whatever the expression is
(I'm v.v.v.tired). His whole manifesto was built on ridding the country of
"overforeignisation" and it was all about race hatred etc. But we'll see
what happens.
>No I am not excusing racism, surely you are deliberately misinterpreting my
>comments.
No more than you do. Touché.
>Perhaps I will hence forth be branded a racist, it wouldn't surprise me...
>But why is it that I can happily refer to someone as a fat bastard and
>nobody gives a toss, but the second I use the word 'wog' I am a bad man?
Why do you feel the need to use it?
>I don't make a habit of using the word 'wog' or any of the other derogatory
>racial terms, but it's an interesting question all the same.
If it *can* insult people, why use it on a public forum read by people of
all ethnic backgrounds. Just say "ethnic minorities". Come on Zobo, it's not
that much. Tell you what, if you're so lazy that you can't type more than 3
letters then from now on whenever you say EM we'll know you mean "ethnic
minority". And that's only two letters. Happy?
>As much as I am not excusing racism, I'm not excusing the kind of PC crap
>that spews out of loony left town halls either. FWIW I lived in LB
Greenwich
>and helped to vote the loony left in there, something I came to regret.
PC or not PC, that is the question.....
There's a lot of great stuff about political correctness. Of course, when
you look at what happened re: Hackney council / that guy with Aids in
Islington / etc, there are bad examples.
But being PC isn't just about being a loonie-lefty-limp-wristed-liberal, as
you often put it. It's about respect for other people. You might want to buy
fags down at the local shop that is run by a Pakistani, you might even call
the shop *in your mind* the "local paki shop", but that doesn't mean you
should go up to someone else (whether Asian or otherwise) asking for
directions for the cashpoint and reply "Yeah, it's over there next to the
Paki shop". I'm not saying you'd say this. But I've heard others say it.
PC is about common sense, it's about manners, it's about respect. Taken to
extremes, tragedies can happen, like with that children's home. But if
you're not an extremist, it shouldn't bother you per se.
It certainly doesn't bother me that I can't say certain words.
TRISTÁN
Tristán White
>Valencian? Is that different fron Catalan? I've never heard of it.
>Is it a dialect or a separate language?
It's a dialect of Catalan, spoken in the provinces of Valencia, Alicante and
Castellón. I don't call it Catalan because some Valencians get really pissed
off. So I call it Valencian. An example of Spanish political correctness in
action. In fact, a few decades ago, long before PC was heard of anywhere in
the world, an eminent Spanish philologist tried to call Balearic "Bacaval"
but failed.
I understand Catalan perfectly (it's so similar to Valencian). Basically,
Valencian has a few hundred different words (many of which are Arabic in
origin) and the conjugation of verbs is quite different (eg. present tense
first person, the whole of the imperative and the subjunctive, etc.)
>If you know Spain & France so well, you'll know that jingoism/xenophobia
>is not a peculiarity of the British. Just ask your average Jose Bloggs
>en la calle who is the cause of all the woes in Spain. You know the answer
>you'll get - Los Moros. Racism is a nasty feature of all human societies,
<SNIP>
You're quite right there. I've fallen out with people over there!
Fortunately, none of my mates in Spain are like this, they're all woolly
limp-wristed liberals like me! But yes, it's bad over there.
However, I think that having Franco for so many years, until recently (well
1975, recent enough for anyone old enough) has meant that people in Spain
are much less likely to vote in a Falangista de las JONS person in their
council (equivalent of BNP) than in the UK.
This is partly thanks, I think, to Spain having it's own local nationalism
(ie. pro-Basque, pro-Catalan, etc.), there isn't a huge NF side in Spain.
It's still there, but it's very very small.
Just look at España playing football if you want an idea. Compare your
average crown to an average England international. Check on the problems.
See if anyone is shouting racist remarks at Rivaldo, Anglomá, Songo'o or any
other black players in the Spanish league....
Got to go
TRISTÁN
fre...@who.cares.anyway
>>Yeah , I bet you like speaking out about certain racist events. 'Course the
>>problem with you fucking liberals is that when its the other way around
>>(ethnics having a go at or beating up white guys) you lot don't give a
>>bleeding toss. Its never rascism then oh no, either the whites did
>something
>>to deserve it or its just a straight forward barny. You lot make me fuckin
>>sick. If it had been an ethnic driver having a go at 2 old white men would
>you
>>have been writing off your Mr Outraged-Liberal-From-Islington letter then?
>>Bollocks would you!
>
>
>OK, I can tell you're a troll immediately. But I'll answer you.
Wrong. I'm not trolling, these are my real opinions.
>(a) yes, I might complain if it was the other way around, because it would
>still be ageist. In the same way that I would complain if the driver had
Why only ageist, why not racist? See, you've proved my point already without
even realising it! Is it only us nasty whites who are racist then? Whats
your problem , you feeling some kind of inherited guilt about stuff our
ancestors did? Thats what a lot of you liberal tossers seem to suffer from.
Well tough, I don't and don't assume everyone else does because believe me
99% of the rest of the british population in this country don't either.
>(c) you sound exactly like the sort of person I have been going on about. If
>I'm wrong, deny it. And don't hide behind anonymity, coward.
Look at the NNTP-Posting-Host section of the header if you want to know
where this post came from (I'm assuming you know what the header is). The main
address is faked so I don't get spam email. Idiot.
>TRISTÁN WHITE
Whats with the poncy circumflex? Another affectation on your part to keep
up with your liberal chums at the next wine and cheese party where you
dicuss all the nasty things that happen to the poor little minorities on
the council estates (not that you probably have to bloody live in one mind).
Dave Root
>>TRISTÁN WHITE
>
>Whats with the poncy circumflex?
<pedant>
Isn't that an acute? Circumflex is the triangular hat-shaped one.
</pedant>
--
Dave Root
dave(a)quackduck.freeserve.co.uk (spamtrapped)
http://www.quackduck.freeserve.co.uk/
James Farrar
fre...@who.cares.anyway writes
>>TRISTÁN WHITE
>
>Whats with the poncy circumflex? Another affectation on your part to keep
>up with your liberal chums at the next wine and cheese party where you
>dicuss all the nasty things that happen to the poor little minorities on
>the council estates (not that you probably have to bloody live in one mind).
>
Or it could be the way his name is spelt, tosser.
Oh, and yes, you are a troll.
*plonk*
--
James Farrar
-delete-
You are working to afford it
Zobo Kolonie
>
> Just look at España playing football if you want an idea. Compare your
> average crown to an average England international. Check on the problems.
> See if anyone is shouting racist remarks at Rivaldo, Anglomá, Songo'o or
any
> other black players in the Spanish league....
>
anyway.
:-)
ZK
Zobo Kolonie
> Zobo, good answer IMNSHO and you've redeemed yourself a bit. It's a long
one
>
> and I may answer it another time, but I'll pick up on some of it now. Oh,
> for the record, a lot of your answer made sense.
>
> <SNIP>
> >I can't say I blame the denziens of East London being decidedly upset
when
> >they see groups of foreigners whos' language they do not speak and whos'
> >culture they do not understand being moved into their area with scant
> regard
> >for the needs of the existing population.
>
>
> No, I guess not, but that's not my point, really. My point is that people
> will not see these foreigners in this light in the first place if they
have
> a little more respect, a little less xenophobia. Which is where people
like
> me (anti-racists) step in. Complaining about people like that bus-driver.
At
> least gradually they get the message that being a racist is a stupid thing
> to do.
>
You still don't get it.
Oh well.
I give up, we're destined never to see the back of the likes of the BNP with
such blinkered attitudes as yours.
Infact, you're one of their best assets.
> <SNIP>
> >count for less than the incoming refugees and other foreign nationals.
Now
> >the BNP are undoubtedly using propoganda to promote these feelings, but
> hard
> >luck, that's the price you pay for democracy, it's down to local
> authorities
> >to stop and take stock, instead of addressing the BNP just from the
ethnic
> >minority point of view, try addressing the issues that are pissing off
the
> >white people too.
>
> I agree with all of this. But what can I do from the local level? I can't
> singlehandedly make the local Council listen to both sides of the story?
I'm
> just an East End citizen. There are only two things I can do:
> (a) vote against the BNP - which I do
> (b) grass up racists - which I do
>
True, you personally can't do too much... think 'you' in the collective
sense.
> It's all I can possibly do, as a single voice in a big hostile world. It's
> certainly got you all talking about it, and if there are any people on UTB
> for example who were thinking of doing the same as the driver I saw (this
is
> a hypothesis: UTB people are a great laugh, I've lurked around a while)
then
> they might think again! Who knows, I might be on their bus! Or someone
like
> me! ;-)
>
But you didn't do anything on the bus did you.
> >It would be so much easier if we had one short word to describe 'black
and
> >asian people'.
> >Sadly these days, 'wog' is a derogatory term.
> >Oh well.
>
> Are you so impatient and is life so short that you need a short three
letter
> word to describe all of these? Why? Why the urge? Black and asian is fine!
> Or Ethnic minorities. Or if it must be one word, Ethnics. I don't like
> saying "Ethnics" in one word, but it's better than "wog", matey! Get a
> modern dictionary, many now have little asterisks or exclamation marks by
> the words that have now become pejorative.
>
Actually, I think the word 'wog' is better, it's just a shame that we can't
use it anymore.
'Black and Asian' is not fine, it's thoroughly crap.
> >Well if that's racism, dress me in lederhosen and call me Adolf.
>
> Funniest thing you've said all day. :-)
>
:-)
> >Ahhh it's our duty is it?
> >Who told you that?
> >Or did you dream it up all by yourself?
> >Funny, because I don't remember voting for you to determine what my
duties
> >were.
>
> No one told me. It's instinct. Same as it's instinct to help someone who
is
>
It's not your instinct, you have to stop and think about it.
If you went purely on instinct you would say about foreigners, particularly
coloured ones 'they are different to me, therefor I must defend myself from
them and drive them off of my territory'.
That doesn't always make it right to do so, part of being civilised is the
ability to overcome instinct.
> in pain. It's manners. It's the right thing to do, for the right reason.
> If you see someone being discriminated, it is surely our duty to help that
> person. Either that or you're an ostrich.
>
Our first duty is to our existing population.
Either that or you're an idiot.
It's all about perception and feelings of worth.
As I said above, you really still don't get it.
> >There's nothing to stop individual countries from severing diplomatic
> links,
> >but since they are a paid up member of the EU and are not currently
> breaking
> >any EU rules due to Mr Haider's presence in their government then there
> >seems to be no reason why we should kick them out.
> >If Haider actually started persecuting minority groups etc then sure,
bomb
> >him, kick them out of the EU on human rights grounds or whatever... but
> just
> >because he's in the government? That's very dictatorial. Or is it
> >'freedom, democracy and peace, but only when we say so' ?
>
> Well, if you want to wait until Haider actually does persecute minority
> groups then fine.
>
To an extent, we don't really have much choice.
We can say 'Mr Haider, if you do XYZ we will respond by doing ABC' but apart
from that there's not a right lot we can do until he breaches some human
rights thingy or other.
> I'm sure he will, it's a shame we have to wait until the
> horse pushes the cart before the barndoor, or whatever the expression is
>
Tough.
It's either that or you sink to his level.
The law is like an electric fence... you can walk right up to it, to within
a hairs breadth of it and still be perfectly safe, but touch it and it
bites!
That's the way democratic, civilised people do things.
Unlike your lot who just want to dictate to everyone to make everything pink
and fluffy.
> (I'm v.v.v.tired). His whole manifesto was built on ridding the country of
> "overforeignisation" and it was all about race hatred etc. But we'll see
> what happens.
>
Indeed we will.
> >No I am not excusing racism, surely you are deliberately misinterpreting
my
> >comments.
>
> No more than you do. Touché.
>
I don't do anything of the sort.
> >Perhaps I will hence forth be branded a racist, it wouldn't surprise
me...
> >But why is it that I can happily refer to someone as a fat bastard and
> >nobody gives a toss, but the second I use the word 'wog' I am a bad man?
>
> Why do you feel the need to use it?
>
Because it's a good word, unfortunately it's got a bad name these days.
How about if I were to call them 'sooties'? I bet you would get all upset
by that too.
> >I don't make a habit of using the word 'wog' or any of the other
derogatory
> >racial terms, but it's an interesting question all the same.
>
> If it *can* insult people, why use it on a public forum read by people of
> all ethnic backgrounds. Just say "ethnic minorities". Come on Zobo, it's
not
> that much. Tell you what, if you're so lazy that you can't type more than
3
> letters then from now on whenever you say EM we'll know you mean "ethnic
> minority". And that's only two letters. Happy?
>
Not really, no. So what if it can insult some people?
Lots of things insult lots of people.
Who gives a fuck?
I'm damned well not living my life purely to avoid insulting anyone else.
What's so special about them that they can't be insulted?
I find that attitude insulting btw so you had better not hold it, else you
will be insulting me and that will make you a bad man... oh hang on, I'm not
black or asian, so of course you can insult me... sorry... do carry on.
> >As much as I am not excusing racism, I'm not excusing the kind of PC crap
> >that spews out of loony left town halls either. FWIW I lived in LB
> Greenwich
> >and helped to vote the loony left in there, something I came to regret.
>
>
> PC or not PC, that is the question.....
>
PC is a wanker's game.
> There's a lot of great stuff about political correctness. Of course, when
> you look at what happened re: Hackney council / that guy with Aids in
> Islington / etc, there are bad examples.
> But being PC isn't just about being a loonie-lefty-limp-wristed-liberal,
as
> you often put it. It's about respect for other people. You might want to
buy
>
Bullshit! It's about selective respect for people... it doesn't give a shit
encrusted middle finger about you or me mate...
Wake up and smell the coffee dude. PC is purely a way to supress people.
> fags down at the local shop that is run by a Pakistani, you might even
call
> the shop *in your mind* the "local paki shop", but that doesn't mean you
> should go up to someone else (whether Asian or otherwise) asking for
> directions for the cashpoint and reply "Yeah, it's over there next to the
> Paki shop". I'm not saying you'd say this. But I've heard others say it.
>
So what if they do?
What is the problem?
Do you mind that I openly refer to the local Chinese takeaway restaurants as
the 'Chinkies'?
Tough shit if you do. Bet you don't mind though... see... fucking
inconsistent... all put on for show. Pathetic.
So why can't I call it the 'paki shop' ?
As it happens, I don't, but I think I will start calling the local asian run
stores 'paki shops' from now on.
ZK
Allan
Zobo Kolonie <kol...@popmail.SPAMSUCKSdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:r9vs4.208$F3.170...@news.telia.no...> news:88tu5f$jn7$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > (a) yes, I might complain if it was the other way around, because it
would
> > still be ageist.
> >
>
> Or are you far to politically correct to accuse some raghead or other wog
of
> being racist?
>
>
>
Where do U get off calling my people Wogs? man I mean do U really think
like that? do U belive in what U R saying or is all just a front? will U
call me a wog or a nigger if I turned up in one of those ULL gatherings?
will U?
Allan
timi the tosspot
>John Rowland is spamtrapped
>You are working to afford it
Zobo Kolonie
news:38b3...@aston-server2.astondes.com...
Personally I don't care if you're black, white or sky blue pink, if you're a
decent bloke then so be it, if you're an arsehole then so be it too.
The point is made for effect.
But I think you missed the point.
ZK
Tristán White
<SNIP>
>Look at the NNTP-Posting-Host section of the header if you want to know
>where this post came from (I'm assuming you know what the header is). The
main
>address is faked so I don't get spam email. Idiot.
OK point taken.
>Whats with the poncy circumflex? Another affectation on your part to keep
>up with your liberal chums at the next wine and cheese party where you
>dicuss all the nasty things that happen to the poor little minorities on
>the council estates (not that you probably have to bloody live in one
mind).
It's an acute accent, actually. Not an affectation either; I was brought up
in Spain. Yes, I was brought up amongst Johnny Foreigner. I wonder how you'd
have coped....
Tristán White
>Or it could be the way his name is spelt, tosser.
>Oh, and yes, you are a troll.
>*plonk*
Thank you James. :-) nice to get some support for a change!!
timi the tosspot
of agreeing the amount you will pay me.
Tristán White
>Oh well.
<SNIP BITS WHERE WE'LL NEVER AGREE, and we're just going in a circle,
until...>
>Actually, I think the word 'wog' is better, it's just a shame that we can't
>use it anymore.
>'Black and Asian' is not fine, it's thoroughly crap.
Most Black and Asian people prefer to be called Black and Asian. That's good
enough for me. Wog, Sootie, Chinky (for both race and the restaurant) and
other terms are pejorative. Come on, you don't need to be Brain of bleeding
Britain to work that one out.
>Our first duty is to our existing population.
>Either that or you're an idiot.
>It's all about perception and feelings of worth.
>As I said above, you really still don't get it.
We're still going round in circles. No, it isn't our first duty. Our first
duty is to people worse-off than ourselves. Or at least that's my view.
Looking after yourself is a very Thatcherite stance. After all, as far as
she was concerned, society didn't even exist....
Not giving a fig about other people is what makes this country so insular
(in a mental rather than geographical sense, since the geography bit is
inevitable...)
<SNIP>
>I'm damned well not living my life purely to avoid insulting anyone else.
No. But you seem to be living your life going out of your way to insult
them? Why else use terms like "wog" on a public newsgroup. Why use them at
all?
>What's so special about them that they can't be insulted?
Discrimination. And years of it. It hurts. Perhaps you're too blinkered to
imagine what it must be like for people to call you names, for it to take
you longer to get served at the bar, for someone less qualified than you to
get the promotion, or for you to get your head kicked in by skinheads, to
live your life in fear whenever you walk past a dodgy-looking estate or pub
or football stadium. You can't imagine. You're big, you're over 6 ft., you
can probably throw a punch or two by the looks of things. So why insult
them, what thrill does that give you, what turns you on about it? Because
there's NO NEED to be rude about people's race, it's unnecessary. And as for
your Fat analogy a couple of e-mails back, if I were to call you a fat git
(which I would never do because *a* I am probably fatter; *b* being rude to
people unnecessarily does not turn me on; and *c* I value my face thank you
very much) then whilst that is insulting and discriminatory, one's size is
something they can do something about. If I call someone really stupid a
"stupid idiot" then that's insulting but their intelligence is something
they can do something about. These are insults that are OK. But if you call
someone with Down's a "stupid idiot", then the idiot is you, not them.
Geddit? People can't change their race. We are all the same. How about a
little respect for other people out there, and a little less me me me.
TRISTÁN
Allan
point with out the Neanderthal and offensive language!
As a matter of interest do you have any friends that are not Caucasian? if
so do they know that to make a point you call them wogs?
I assure you I have many non black friends and non of them has ever called
me a wog or a nigger to make a point or otherwise.
Allan
Zobo Kolonie
> Zobo Kolonie wrote in message ...
> >Oh well.
>
>
> until...>
>
can't
> >use it anymore.
> >'Black and Asian' is not fine, it's thoroughly crap.
>
good
> enough for me. Wog, Sootie, Chinky (for both race and the restaurant) and
> other terms are pejorative. Come on, you don't need to be Brain of
bleeding
> Britain to work that one out.
>
'Chinky'.
So far it is not pejorative, at least not until you and your mates stamp
your feet loud enough and get the Thought Police to work on that one.
> >Our first duty is to our existing population.
> >Either that or you're an idiot.
> >It's all about perception and feelings of worth.
> >As I said above, you really still don't get it.
>
> We're still going round in circles. No, it isn't our first duty.
>
Yes it is... if we get that wrong then we'll never get acceptance of
immigrants.
I find it incredible that you can't understand that point.
It's not "Britian first mate!" or "Fuck the wogs!" or anything like that...
it's plain and simple... the limp wristed liberal brigade don't give a fuck
about the existing population - as your comments demonstrate all too
clearly - hence the existing population get the hump and all your plans -
worthy or otherwise - fall to bits basically. You need the support of the
local communities to make assimilation work, therefor you must make the
existing population feel as if they come first, else you will (and are) fuck
up.
> Our first
> duty is to people worse-off than ourselves. Or at least that's my view.
>
Ok... let's try a different approach...
You, yes you personally, with your unusual background, presumably good
education, and somewhat liberal views, you take in the situation and see
that there's a bunch of very deprived people from <insert war torn country
here> so you would happily go rushing off, handing out public money, to help
them
Very laudable. Seriously, I applaud that. But...
Is it in the best interests of said migrants to live in an area where the
existing population perceive them as being treated as a higher priority, or
a special case thus devaluing the position of said local population?
Of course it is not, we can clearly see where that leads to (how else do you
think the BNP get elected?).
So... would it not be better to adopt a culture of prevention rather than
cure, and make sure that the existing population feel like they are priority
one, they are the ones who count? You don't even have to do too much to
make this happen... it's about peoples' perceptions... get local populations
to buy into the ideas >beforehand< instead of foisting a bunch of newcomers
on them and then trying to batter the locals into accepting them.
You can stand there and tell these people that 'they must remember that the
poor refugees have had it really tough' until you go blue in the face, it's
simply not going to work, they will still resent the newcomers all the while
they are made to feel like they are second class compared to the immigrants.
Perhaps I should start a nice and simple 'expectation and perception
management for dummies' school :-)
Basically, you can be morally right until the cows come home, if you screw
up peoples' perceptions and expectations then you got it wrong.
It failed. End of story.
> Looking after yourself is a very Thatcherite stance. After all, as far as
> she was concerned, society didn't even exist....
>
I'll treat that comment with the contempt it deserves.
> Not giving a fig about other people is what makes this country so insular
> (in a mental rather than geographical sense, since the geography bit is
> inevitable...)
>
Your not giving a fig about the existing populace is most annoying.
> <SNIP>
> >I'm damned well not living my life purely to avoid insulting anyone else.
>
> No. But you seem to be living your life going out of your way to insult
> them? Why else use terms like "wog" on a public newsgroup. Why use them at
> all?
>
Made a point though didn't it.
No, I don't normally use that term.
If anyone is thoroughly insulted that's their hard luck for being so stupid
that they can't see the point.
> >What's so special about them that they can't be insulted?
>
> Discrimination. And years of it. It hurts. Perhaps you're too blinkered to
>
Tough shit.
It happens all the bloody time.
I have been discriminated against for the following 'crimes':
Having long hair.
Being fat.
Being skinny (I was >extremely< thin for a few years).
Being white.
Being young (ok, that was some time ago).
Wearing a leather jacket.
Being male.
Riding a motorcycle.
Speaking with a middle class southern accent (well that's what 'they' told
me it was).
Using 'northern' slang in my speech.
Being English.
Being British.
Being a computer programmer / technical person (trust me, the discrimination
I suffered for that was very hurtful).
Being clever.
Being Jewish (bet that surprised you didn't it!).
So don't give me any bullshit about being blinkered and not having a clue
about what it's like.
> imagine what it must be like for people to call you names, for it to take
> you longer to get served at the bar, for someone less qualified than you
to
> get the promotion, or for you to get your head kicked in by skinheads, to
> live your life in fear whenever you walk past a dodgy-looking estate or
pub
> or football stadium.
>
Dude, >I< worry about walking through dodgy estates or pubs, or football
grounds at those certain times.
> You can't imagine. You're big, you're over 6 ft., you
> can probably throw a punch or two by the looks of things. So why insult
> them, what thrill does that give you, what turns you on about it?
>
There's no thrill, but it did serve wonderfully to draw you out and watch
your responses. Which were pretty much as I thought they would be.
> Because
> there's NO NEED to be rude about people's race, it's unnecessary. And as
for
> your Fat analogy a couple of e-mails back, if I were to call you a fat git
> (which I would never do because *a* I am probably fatter; *b* being rude
to
> people unnecessarily does not turn me on; and *c* I value my face thank
you
> very much) then whilst that is insulting and discriminatory, one's size is
> something they can do something about.
>
First off, I can no longer say that I haven't thumped anyone for x number of
years, I did actually thump one chap last year (with damned good reason) and
have already taken a pop at another chap this year (again with damned good
reason). You can call me a fat bastard until you go blue in the face, I'm
not going to thump you for it. I've stopped giving a toss about that one
(well, pretty much anyway).
Secondly, your comments suggest that you've no idea how hurtful comments
about size can be, how low one's self estime can sink, the horrid things
that does to your mind as a teenager for instance... I'm surprised that you
don't know this, given that we're neither of us slender, but whatever, it's
true. However, if you started a campaign to stop people taking the piss out
of fat bastards I'd slag you off something rotten... I don't want to be a
special case thank you very much, I don't want a creepy society in which
people were socially scared to say things for artificial imposed reasons. So
there.
> If I call someone really stupid a
> "stupid idiot" then that's insulting but their intelligence is something
> they can do something about. These are insults that are OK. But if you
call
> someone with Down's a "stupid idiot", then the idiot is you, not them.
> Geddit? People can't change their race. We are all the same. How about a
> little respect for other people out there, and a little less me me me.
>
I'll do you a swap, I'll display a little more respect for peoples' racial
feelings if you display any respect whatsoever for the feelings of an
existing population.
That wont actually change my feelings... I've got no more or less respect
for a black bloke that I've never met than I have for a white bloke that
I've never met... once again, it's all about perceptions... geddit?
ZK
Zobo Kolonie
news:38b3...@aston-server2.astondes.com...
>
> Zobo Kolonie <kol...@popmail.SPAMSUCKSdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:OdQs4.356$F3.170...@news.telia.no...
> > Allan <alla...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:38b3...@aston-server2.astondes.com...
> > >
> > > Zobo Kolonie <kol...@popmail.SPAMSUCKSdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:r9vs4.208$F3.170...@news.telia.no...
Why write a paragraph when a single word will do?
> As a matter of interest do you have any friends that are not Caucasian?
if
> so do they know that to make a point you call them wogs?
>
Yes I do, and indeed it wouldn't surprise them one bit, nor would it offend
them.
Though I'd never call an individual a wog (notice that I have not done so in
my posts).
Infact, one particular mate of mine (black chap) would concur almost wholly
with the things I have been saying.
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!
> I assure you I have many non black friends and non of them has ever called
> me a wog or a nigger to make a point or otherwise.
>
Good.
There should be no need to do so to an individual.
ZK
Allan
I would like to see this "dude" cus I tell you this I would not stand for
anyone calling me or my race by such names! yes as I have grown older I have
learned to tolorate ignorance, and I have learned that you can not fight
ignorance with violance.
I very much doubt that he would agree with you calling balck people wogs! I
DOUBT THAT VERY MUCH.
> Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!
What does that supposed to mean! what U think that proves me wrong?
> > I assure you I have many non black friends and non of them has ever
called
> > me a wog or a nigger to make a point or otherwise.
> >
> Good.
> There should be no need to do so to an individual.
>
nor should it be a need for it in the general turm either.
Zobo Kolonie
> In uk.local.london Zobo Kolonie <kol...@popmail.spamsucksdircon.co.uk>
wrote:
> : Allan Hawdon <uda...@axolotl.kcl.ac.uk> wrote in message
> : news:88ufjs$6hu$1...@willow.cc.kcl.ac.uk...
> :>
jingoism/xenophobia
> :> is not a peculiarity of the British. Just ask your average Jose Bloggs
> :> en la calle who is the cause of all the woes in Spain. You know the
answer
> :> you'll get - Los Moros. Racism is a nasty feature of all human
societies,
> : I'd
> :> suggest you try getting out to a few non European countries - you could
> : start
> :> with a few Arab countries, Africa, or Latin America - for no paricular
> : reason
> :> than they'd be the easiest to get to from Europe. I can guarantee that,
> :> unless you're walking around with your eyes wrapped in ideological
> : blinkers
> :> that you'll see racism that will make your toes curl.
> :> The world is not a nice place.
> :>
> : Allan, here, have a banana.
> : Very well put sir!
> : I might just grab a copy and keep it for a rainy day :-)
>
> Er, hang on Zobo. I hope I didn't give the impression I was
> coming over to your side of the fence. If anything my politics
> tend more towards Tristan's; I just feel he can be a little naive,
> if well meaning, at times (no offence intended Tristan).
>
England are not alone with our racism and xenophobia that I appreciated.
> Oh well, suppose I can look forward to the ToD now ...
>
Nope.
> Can I swap the banana for a last cigar?
>
Oi! The banana, or to give it it's official title the Nana, is very highly
prized award in the world of the Nana Brained Space Alien!
So there.
> And I'm still curious about Valencian.
>
I hear that it's similar to Klingon, but without the lilt.
ZK
Lanimal
fre...@who.cares.anyway wrote:
>
A load of shit. Again.
>
> Whats with the poncy circumflex? Another affectation on your part to keep
> up with your liberal chums at the next wine and cheese party where you
> dicuss all the nasty things that happen to the poor little minorities on
> the council estates (not that you probably have to bloody live in one mind).
Angry, Angry man. In _dire_ need of a blowjob (from whatever
gender/species he prefers)
L
Tristán White
I'm just going to agree to disagree. You'll never convince me that you're
right, and it looks like the feeling is mutual.
All you've done is succeeded in pissing off / insulting (more than?) one of
the non-white ULLers, an achievement of which I hope you feel proud in some
warped way.
It would have been so much simpler not to have been so bloody reactionary.
The problem is, you're quite a nice guy IRL, and I'll be the first to admit
it. But on ULL, in my not so humble opinion, *sometimes* you can be a bit of
an arse. ;-)
So can I, am am sure. But at least I don't insult people.
TRISTÁN
Allan Hawdon
: Zobo Kolonie <kol...@popmail.SPAMSUCKSdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
: news:CvRs4.375$F3.178...@news.telia.no...
:> Allan <alla...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
:> news:38b3...@aston-server2.astondes.com...
<big snip> <sorely needed>
: I would like to see this "dude" cus I tell you this I would not stand for
: anyone calling me or my race by such names! yes as I have grown older I have
: learned to tolorate ignorance, and I have learned that you can not fight
: ignorance with violance.
: I very much doubt that he would agree with you calling balck people wogs! I
: DOUBT THAT VERY MUCH.
Just as an aside, and I'm happy to be corrected by anyone more etymologially
literate than me, but as I understand it the term wog is a demeaning reference
to arabs (or possibly bedouin specifically) and not to blacks or asians as
such. If so, its use in such a context would be incorrect.
Dear me I'm starting to sound pompous.