Analogue telephone ringing

[Malcolm Loades]

I've always had 1952 bakelite telephone in my hall plugged into a
extension of the BT landline. Just love hearing that bell ring!

Now I have FTTP when this phone is plugged into the analogue socket on
my FrtizBox! (I assume that an ATA socket would not be any different?)
it doesn't ring. I guess it needs a higher voltage if anything at all
is provided by the analogue socket?

Is there a way to get my antique telephone ringing again?

Malcolm

[Mike Humphrey]

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 12:22:15 +0100, Malcolm Loades wrote:
> I've always had 1952 bakelite telephone in my hall plugged into a
> extension of the BT landline. Just love hearing that bell ring!
>
> Now I have FTTP when this phone is plugged into the analogue socket on
> my FrtizBox! (I assume that an ATA socket would not be any different?)
> it doesn't ring. I guess it needs a higher voltage if anything at all
> is provided by the analogue socket?

My first thought would be that, depending how it's been converted to BT
wiring, it might need a bell wire. The easiest way to generate a bell wire
signal is with an ADSL filter (even though the filtering function is not
required) - plug the phone into the filter, and the filter into the router
analogue port.

If it is the voltage or power of the ring signal that's insufficient, a
REN booster would be the answer. I've found a manual here -
https://store.ee.co.uk/content/uni2/documentation/4kqv/bt-ren-booster.pdf
but no-one seems to have one for sale. The other suggestion is to feed it
via a PBX, though that seems a bit overkill if you're just trying to make
the bell work.

Mike

[Marco Moock]

Am 09.09.2023 um 12:22:15 Uhr schrieb Malcolm Loades:

> Now I have FTTP when this phone is plugged into the analogue socket
> on my FrtizBox!

You have to use the FON sockets. These are analog sockets, RJ11 or TAE
(German telephone plug).
You have to connect your phone to the middle pins of the RJ11 socket OR
pin 1+2 of the TAE socket if that exists.
Please specify which FritzBox you have.

I have a 7490 and a German rotary phone with a bell (FeTAp 791) rings.

[Malcolm Loades]

Yes, mine is a 7490 too.

[Marco Moock]

Then check the pinout.

What phone do you have (exact type, so we can google schematics)?

[Malcolm Loades]

It's a GPO 332L.

But you'll have to explain to me how to check the pinout please.

Malcolm

[Marco Moock]

Am 10.09.2023 um 19:47:29 Uhr schrieb Malcolm Loades:

> It's a GPO 332L.

https://www.britishtelephones.com/t332.htm
This should be the schematics:
https://www.britishtelephones.com/gpo/pictures/t322paster.jpg

It only has 2 pins, that makes it easy.
Which plug does the phone have?
If you don't know the name, take a photo and upload it and set a link
here.

[Malcolm Loades]

https://afoodiediary.com/btplug.jpg

Malcolm

[Marco Moock]

Am 11.09.2023 um 11:38:28 Uhr schrieb Malcolm Loades:

> https://afoodiediary.com/btplug.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_telephone_socket

What socket does the FritzBox have?

[David Wade]

It has an RJ style plug and an adaptor to a BT plug. I suspect the
FritzBox does not supply sufficient current to ring the bells in an old
dial phone.

[Marco Moock]

Am 11.09.2023 um 17:12:28 Uhr schrieb David Wade:

> It has an RJ style plug and an adaptor to a BT plug.

The question is how the adapter connects to the BT socket and how the
phone is connected to the BT plug.

The 2 wires in the middle of the RJ11 socket must be connected to the 2
wires of the phone.
The OT should use a multimeter to verify that.

> I suspect the FritzBox does not supply sufficient current to ring the
> bells in an old dial phone.

I have the 7490 and it rings the bell of a Siemens FeTAp 791 clear and
loud.

[Malcolm Loades]

On 11/09/2023 14:08, Marco Moock wrote:

The 7490 has an RJ11 socket. This adapter is used to accept the BT plug
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rhinocables%C2%AE-Socket-Telephone-Adaptor-White/dp/B00EVS5UZ2
It works fine with a cordless phone plugged into it, just not the
antique phone.

Malcolm

[Marco Moock]

Am 11.09.2023 um 19:14:15 Uhr schrieb Malcolm Loades:

> It works fine with a cordless phone plugged into it, just not the
> antique phone.

The use a multimeter to check if the 2 wires from the phone BT plug go
to the pins 3+4 of the RJ11.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_connector#6P2C

If that is the case, pick the phone up. Can you hear the
proceed-to-dial tone?
if so, the wiring is correct.
If not, something is wrong.

Then test if it rings.

[David Wade]

Modern phones don't use the seperate bell wire. They only need two wires.

Dave

[Theo]

Malcolm Loades <dev...@loades.net> wrote:
> The 7490 has an RJ11 socket. This adapter is used to accept the BT plug
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rhinocables%C2%AE-Socket-Telephone-Adaptor-White/dp/B00EVS5UZ2
> It works fine with a cordless phone plugged into it, just not the
> antique phone.

Does it work other than the bell? Can you go off-hook, hear dialtone, dial
a number, etc? If you ring its number, can you pick up the phone and be
connected to the caller? (even if there's no ringing sound) Does the call
end when you put the phone down?

Theo

[Marco Moock]

Am 11.09.2023 um 21:48:35 Uhr schrieb David Wade:

> Modern phones don't use the seperate bell wire. They only need two
> wires.

According to the schematics, the phone only has 2 wires.
https://www.britishtelephones.com/gpo/pictures/t322paster.jpg

German telephones also use these 2 wires for ringing the bell.
Although, some older ones have an additional contact for an additional
bell that is being disconnected when the phone is hooked off.

I can confirm that the RJ11 of the German 7490 supports the bell and
the normal phone line on 2 wires.

[notya...@gmail.com]

These have a separate bell connection and most ATA type devices and modern phones do not use it, however it is present in the BT phone plug / socket.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_telephone_socket#Plugs

Three are technically reserved, but some sources give

Green Power.
Blue Bell wire.
Orange Call Wire.
White/Orange Receiving Call Wire.
White/Blue Dialing Wire.
White/Green Broadband Wire.

Back in the old days if you had two phones you had to connect one A to B and the other B to A and connect their bell connections together.

[David Wade]

On 12/09/2023 06:21, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 11.09.2023 um 21:48:35 Uhr schrieb David Wade:
>
>> Modern phones don't use the seperate bell wire. They only need two
>> wires.
>
> According to the schematics, the phone only has 2 wires.
> https://www.britishtelephones.com/gpo/pictures/t322paster.jpg
>

That is for use on the old BT wiring plans which were 2-wire with no
sockets. They need rewiring to work on a modern system which converts
them to 3-wire ringing to avoid bell tinkle. Its almost certainly been
converted to 3-wire possibly as per, but I don't know if there are
alternative schemes.

https://www.britishtelephones.com/pstconv1.htm


GPO Telephone No. 330, 332 & 333
================================

Telephone is wired as follows. The standard diagrams are N430, N432 & N433.

1. Remove strap T10 - T11.
2. Remove strap T11 - T12.
3. Insert strap T8 - T9.
4. Insert strap T1 - T2.
5. Insert a 3.3K ohm resistor between T11 and T12.
6. Rectifier No. 205 (if needed) inserted between T6 & T5.
7. Red wire of line cord to T9.
8. White wire of line cord to T1.
9. Blue wire of line cord to T11.
10. Green wire of line cord to T3.

> German telephones also use these 2 wires for ringing the bell.
> Although, some older ones have an additional contact for an additional
> bell that is being disconnected when the phone is hooked off.
>
> I can confirm that the RJ11 of the German 7490 supports the bell and
> the normal phone line on 2 wires.
>

Dave

[Mike Humphrey]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 03:19:45 -0700 (PDT), notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> Three are technically reserved, but some sources give
>
> Green Power.
> Blue Bell wire.
> Orange Call Wire.
> White/Orange Receiving Call Wire.
> White/Blue Dialing Wire.
> White/Green Broadband Wire.
>

Not sure where that's come from as it doesn't resemble anything that BT
have ever used. Blue and White/Blue are the line pair. Orange is the bell
wire. White/Orange is earth, if it's used at all - no modern phone needs
it, but it was used for some PBX lines and payphones. The green pair has
never been used for PSTN lines, but on hybrid PBX systems the digital
signals are carried on Green and Green/White - this allows a regular
analogue phone to connect to the blue and orange pairs, while the system
phones use the blue and green pairs.

Mike

[Marco Moock]

Am 11.09.2023 um 19:14:15 Uhr schrieb Malcolm Loades:

> It works fine with a cordless phone plugged into it, just not the
> antique phone.

Do you have any new information?

[Mike Humphrey]

On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 19:14:15 +0100, Malcolm Loades wrote:
> The 7490 has an RJ11 socket. This adapter is used to accept the BT plug
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rhinocables%C2%AE-Socket-Telephone-Adaptor-
White/dp/B00EVS5UZ2
> It works fine with a cordless phone plugged into it, just not the
> antique phone.

That adaptor doesn't look big enough to have a ring capacitor in it (and
one of the reviews specifically says it doesn't). Did you try my
suggestion of using a spare ADSL filter? Plug the ADSL filter into your
adaptor, and the phone into the filter. This should give you a working
bell wire.

Mike

[notya...@gmail.com]

Neat!

Except the BT routers ave BT sockets, not RJ11.

[David Wade]

So one of these :-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262671846092

or cheaper

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394745258996

Dave

[Mike Humphrey]

On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 18:21:46 +0100, David Wade wrote:
> On 15/09/2023 16:06, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 19:10:17 UTC+1, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 19:14:15 +0100, Malcolm Loades wrote:
>>>> The 7490 has an RJ11 socket. This adapter is used to accept the BT
>>>> plug
>>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rhinocables%C2%AE-Socket-Telephone-Adaptor-
>>> White/dp/B00EVS5UZ2
>>>> It works fine with a cordless phone plugged into it, just not the
>>>> antique phone.
>>> That adaptor doesn't look big enough to have a ring capacitor in it
>>> (and one of the reviews specifically says it doesn't). Did you try my
>>> suggestion of using a spare ADSL filter? Plug the ADSL filter into
>>> your adaptor, and the phone into the filter. This should give you a
>>> working bell wire.

> So one of these :-
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262671846092
>
> or cheaper
>
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394745258996

Yes, that would do the job in one unit. I suggested the ADSL filter as
most people with broadband have one lying around, which would save buying
anything more or waiting for it to arrive. The ADSL-filtering part is
unnecessary as there's nothing to filter on the router port, but ADSL
filters incidentally contain the ring capacitor of a master socket.

Mike

[David Wade]

So if you cascade the supplied converter, then an ADSL filter the ring
should work...

>
> Mike

Dave

[Roger Mills]

Well no! As stated by a previous poster, in order to plug into the
router the filter would need a BT plug *not* an RJ11 at the input end.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[David Wade]

So you can use an ADSL filter because that has a BT plug and a BT socket....

Dave

[Graham.]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:57:32 -0000 (UTC), Mike Humphrey
<ma...@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:

>On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 03:19:45 -0700 (PDT), notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Three are technically reserved, but some sources give
>>
>> Green Power.
>> Blue Bell wire.
>> Orange Call Wire.
>> White/Orange Receiving Call Wire.
>> White/Blue Dialing Wire.
>> White/Green Broadband Wire.
>>
>
>Not sure where that's come from as it doesn't resemble anything that BT
>have ever used.

It came from a comment at the foot of this page:-
https://tinyurl.com/23wtp3e7

Ian Whatton is simply asking if the various phone wiring colours might
have a particular fixed functions like mains wiring and gives some
random examples that seem plausible to him.

Ian Whatton on 13th February 2021 at 07:16
Do Telephone Wires have names like Electrical Wires Live, Earth, and
Neutral if so which Telephone Wire Colours have names of what they do?
Like for example
1) Green Power.
2) Blue Bell wire.
3) Orange Call Wire.
4) White/Orange Recieving Call Wire.
5) White/Blue Dialing Wire.
6) White/Green Broadband Wire.

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[David Woolley]

On 17/09/2023 17:18, Graham. wrote:
> Ian Whatton is simply asking if the various phone wiring colours might
> have a particular fixed functions like mains wiring and gives some
> random examples that seem plausible to him.

These look like wild guesses, as most of these functions don't exist as
distinct wires in telephone wiring.

In practice the only real requirement is that the A and B wire be on the
same twisted pair, which will mean they have the same colour, other than
white.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_telephone_socket> suggests some
additional conventions, but I'm not sure how well they are followed, and
office wiring may share a single Cat 5 between multiple phones.

[Roger Mills]

Yes - but not one of the Ebay items cited above.
--
Cheers,
Roger