I am puzzled (Vodafone signal)

[Scott]

I was in a tearoom at a farm yesterday and struggling with mobile
reception. Meantime, a woman at another table seemed to be having no
difficulty. I decided to ask and she said she was on Vodafone and
showed me a decent 4G signal on her screen. I omitted to ask what
type of phone she had.

My network is also Vodafone and my phone is a Google Pixel 5. I was
only seeing H+ and having to step outside for signal. Is there much
difference between different phones? Mine is only a few months old so
I expected to to be pretty capable.

[Woody]

Don't know about these two phones, but I used to have a Samsung S3 and
changed to a Huawei P8Lite and it was very noticeably more sensitive on
all bands.

[Mark]

A relative had the same issue with a ~5 year old Sony Experia. Terrible
received signal finally fixed by buying a new Samsung. The issue was
also shown to be present on other networks by SIM swapping.

[Chris Green]

Is it possibly to do with what frequencies the two phones can use?

I.e. your Pixel can't use all the same 4G frequencies that the other
person's could.

--
Chris Green
·

[Scott]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:30:01 +0100, Mark <codv...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

I can see that, except that my phone was bought only about three
months ago and was the newest model (replacing my previous phone when
it was stolen). .

[Brian Gregory]

On 27/07/2021 21:26, Chris Green wrote:
>
> Is it possibly to do with what frequencies the two phones can use?
>
> I.e. your Pixel can't use all the same 4G frequencies that the other
> person's could.
>

Shouldn't be:
<https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/7158570?hl=en-GB#zippy=%2Cpixel>

Anyway it'd be bad practice to sell a phone as compatible with a network
when it didn't cover all the frequencies the network uses because
sometimes they often don't use all the frequencies in every location.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

[Brian Gregory]

Oops please ignore the word "sometimes" :)

[Tweed]

See
https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/jcuk4b/pixel_5_cell_reception/

It may be that the Pixel 5 just isn’t very good at being a cell phone.

[Scott]

This is worrying and may explain certain difficulties in making and
receiving calls.

[notya...@gmail.com]

Or just your particular one.

[Scott]

Is there any testing or diagnostics I can carry out to check it is
receiving the correct frequency bands?

[Abandoned_Trolley]

>
> Is there any testing or diagnostics I can carry out to check it is
> receiving the correct frequency bands?
>

this might not be entirely relevant but...


If you have another phone to compare it with, you might try loading up
one of those WiFi sniffer / scanner programs, and using your own WiFi
you could compare the receive signal levels. Some of these programs will
have a displayed resolution down to +/- 1 dB

You might then get some idea of how good the antenna is at 2.4 GHZ - I
believe that some Pixel phones have "a bit of a reputation" in that area.

AT

--
random signature text inserted here

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 30 July 2021 at 18:08:29 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:33:07 -0700 (PDT), "notya...@gmail.com"
> <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, 30 July 2021 at 14:16:56 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> >> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:07:09 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> >> <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:30:01 +0100, Mark <codv...@yahoo.co.uk>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On 27/07/2021 18:15, Scott wrote:
> >> >>>> I was in a tearoom at a farm yesterday and struggling with mobile
> >> >>>> reception. Meantime, a woman at another table seemed to be having no
> >> >>>> difficulty. I decided to ask and she said she was on Vodafone and
> >> >>>> showed me a decent 4G signal on her screen. I omitted to ask what
> >> >>>> type of phone she had.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> My network is also Vodafone and my phone is a Google Pixel 5. I was
> >> >>>> only seeing H+ and having to step outside for signal. Is there much
> >> >>>> difference between different phones? Mine is only a few months old so
> >> >>>> I expected to to be pretty capable.

H+ is 3G, you need to enable 4G / LTE on your phone and your Voda account. You might need a new SIM.

That said 3G is fine for most purposes. Way back in 2009 my Nokia N79 would manage ~7Mbps down and support VoIP over 3G [and Wi-Fi].

> >> >>>>
> >> >>> A relative had the same issue with a ~5 year old Sony Experia. Terrible
> >> >>> received signal finally fixed by buying a new Samsung. The issue was
> >> >>> also shown to be present on other networks by SIM swapping.
> >> >>
> >> >> I can see that, except that my phone was bought only about three
> >> >> months ago and was the newest model (replacing my previous phone when
> >> >> it was stolen). .
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >See
> >> >https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/jcuk4b/pixel_5_cell_reception/
> >> >
> >> >It may be that the Pixel 5 just isn’t very good at being a cell phone.
> >> This is worrying and may explain certain difficulties in making and
> >> receiving calls.
> >
> >Or just your particular one.
> Is there any testing or diagnostics I can carry out to check it is
> receiving the correct frequency bands?

Not sure how much it will help but grab Network Cell Info Lite out of the Play store. This will tell you what bands and channels you are using, signal strength etc.

Also switch on Wi-Fi calling if your phone and network support it.

[Scott]

On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:25:31 -0700 (PDT), "notya...@gmail.com"

<notya...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 30 July 2021 at 18:08:29 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:33:07 -0700 (PDT), "notya...@gmail.com"
>> <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, 30 July 2021 at 14:16:56 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:07:09 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> >> <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:30:01 +0100, Mark <codv...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On 27/07/2021 18:15, Scott wrote:
>> >> >>>> I was in a tearoom at a farm yesterday and struggling with mobile
>> >> >>>> reception. Meantime, a woman at another table seemed to be having no
>> >> >>>> difficulty. I decided to ask and she said she was on Vodafone and
>> >> >>>> showed me a decent 4G signal on her screen. I omitted to ask what
>> >> >>>> type of phone she had.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> My network is also Vodafone and my phone is a Google Pixel 5. I was
>> >> >>>> only seeing H+ and having to step outside for signal. Is there much
>> >> >>>> difference between different phones? Mine is only a few months old so
>> >> >>>> I expected to to be pretty capable.
>
>H+ is 3G, you need to enable 4G / LTE on your phone and your Voda account. You might need a new SIM.

It's a 5G phone, with 5G enabled. I also happen to live in a 5G area,
though this is not were the problem occurred.

>
>That said 3G is fine for most purposes. Way back in 2009 my Nokia N79 would manage ~7Mbps down and support VoIP over 3G [and Wi-Fi].
>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> A relative had the same issue with a ~5 year old Sony Experia. Terrible
>> >> >>> received signal finally fixed by buying a new Samsung. The issue was
>> >> >>> also shown to be present on other networks by SIM swapping.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I can see that, except that my phone was bought only about three
>> >> >> months ago and was the newest model (replacing my previous phone when
>> >> >> it was stolen). .
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >See
>> >> >https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/jcuk4b/pixel_5_cell_reception/
>> >> >
>> >> >It may be that the Pixel 5 just isn’t very good at being a cell phone.
>> >> This is worrying and may explain certain difficulties in making and
>> >> receiving calls.
>> >
>> >Or just your particular one.
>> Is there any testing or diagnostics I can carry out to check it is
>> receiving the correct frequency bands?
>
>Not sure how much it will help but grab Network Cell Info Lite out of the Play store. This will tell you what bands and channels you are using, signal strength etc.

This I will try.

>
>Also switch on Wi-Fi calling if your phone and network support it.

It is on and I use it at home and on networks I trust. I don't think
there was Wi-Fi where I had the difficulty.

[Tweed]

You can use Wi-Fi calling on networks you don’t trust. The call is carried
over an encrypted tunnel to your cellular provider.

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 31 July 2021 at 14:06:31 UTC+1, Tweed wrote:
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 02:25:31 -0700 (PDT), "notya...@gmail.com"
> > <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >

SNIP

> >>
> >> Not sure how much it will help but grab Network Cell Info Lite out of
> >> the Play store. This will tell you what bands and channels you are
> >> using, signal strength etc.
> >
> > This I will try.
> >>
> >> Also switch on Wi-Fi calling if your phone and network support it.
> >
> > It is on and I use it at home and on networks I trust. I don't think
> > there was Wi-Fi where I had the difficulty.
> >
> You can use Wi-Fi calling on networks you don’t trust. The call is carried
> over an encrypted tunnel to your cellular provider.

This might explain the **** audio quality. Worse than mobile [on O2] and a lot worse than Voip in the same location

[Tweed]

My Vodafone Wi-Fi calling using an iPhone is very clear indeed. I really
can’t fault it.

[Scott]

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:02:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]

>
>My Vodafone Wi-Fi calling using an iPhone is very clear indeed. I really
>can’t fault it.

I received a call this morning and - yet again - the caller was
complaining about an echo on the line though I could hear him
perfectly okay. This was using Wi-Fi calling. How can a phone work
so well as a computer but not as well as a phone?

I have enabled the VOLTE setting (though I don't know what it is) and
tried disabling 5G. I know to hold the phone vertically.

I think my original Nokia mobile was more reliable in terms of sound
quality. Partly I keep my landline because I prefer the audio -
except that most of the incoming calls are from mobiles or VOIP.

[Tweed]

I know people love to hate Apple and the iPhone, but I (and the rest of the
family with various iPhone models) just don’t have these problems. I’m
sorry that this sounds a little smug, but I’m extremely happy with my
latest iPhoneSE and its call quality and cellular radio performance.

[Scott]

On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 10:54:48 -0000 (UTC), Tweed

<usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:02:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> My Vodafone Wi-Fi calling using an iPhone is very clear indeed. I really

>>> can?t fault it.

>>
>> I received a call this morning and - yet again - the caller was
>> complaining about an echo on the line though I could hear him
>> perfectly okay. This was using Wi-Fi calling. How can a phone work
>> so well as a computer but not as well as a phone?
>>
>> I have enabled the VOLTE setting (though I don't know what it is) and
>> tried disabling 5G. I know to hold the phone vertically.
>>
>> I think my original Nokia mobile was more reliable in terms of sound
>> quality. Partly I keep my landline because I prefer the audio -
>> except that most of the incoming calls are from mobiles or VOIP.
>>
>I know people love to hate Apple and the iPhone, but I (and the rest of the
>family with various iPhone models) just don’t have these problems. I’m
>sorry that this sounds a little smug, but I’m extremely happy with my
>latest iPhoneSE and its call quality and cellular radio performance.

Not at all. It's a valid comment to make. I may look at iPhone next
time round. Subjective I know, but how good is the sound quality? If
you put on headphones, would it match a landline?

As a digression, it will be interesting to see what happens when
Openreach supposedly end the traditional phone service in 2025. Will
there be as many problems with 'the line' as the BBC seem to have?

[Chris Green]

Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:02:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >My Vodafone Wi-Fi calling using an iPhone is very clear indeed. I really

> >can?t fault it.

>
> I received a call this morning and - yet again - the caller was
> complaining about an echo on the line though I could hear him
> perfectly okay. This was using Wi-Fi calling. How can a phone work
> so well as a computer but not as well as a phone?
>
> I have enabled the VOLTE setting (though I don't know what it is) and
> tried disabling 5G. I know to hold the phone vertically.
>
> I think my original Nokia mobile was more reliable in terms of sound
> quality. Partly I keep my landline because I prefer the audio -
> except that most of the incoming calls are from mobiles or VOIP.

Fundamentally people no longer expect their phones to work well as
phone IMHO. What people (seem to) look for is ridiculously high
resolution cameras and the ability to run WhatsApp (or whatever is the
latest messaging app), view videos, etc.

My general experience with modern mobile phones is that the audio
quality is pretty poor and that calls drop out more often than they
should.

Landlines are more reliable!

--
Chris Green
·

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 3 August 2021 at 11:42:20 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:02:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >My Vodafone Wi-Fi calling using an iPhone is very clear indeed. I really
> >can’t fault it.
> I received a call this morning and - yet again - the caller was
> complaining about an echo on the line though I could hear him
> perfectly okay. This was using Wi-Fi calling. How can a phone work
> so well as a computer but not as well as a phone?

IME this is a network problem NOT a phone problem - Voip on a mobile (native or in an app') is better than GSM, ISDN or POTS.

>
> I have enabled the VOLTE setting (though I don't know what it is) and
> tried disabling 5G. I know to hold the phone vertically.

Voice over 4G, which was data only.

>
> I think my original Nokia mobile was more reliable in terms of sound
> quality. Partly I keep my landline because I prefer the audio -
> except that most of the incoming calls are from mobiles or VOIP.

See above - analogue landline quality is generally poor.

[Tweed]

I’m not sure about putting headphones on, as this is something I don’t do,
especially not for making phone calls. If anything, I find the call quality
generally better than via my DECT landline phone. I never have an issue
with Wi-Fi calling, but this might be that in the locations where I
generally use the service the broadband connection is very good. I can
imagine that if you have a lowish speed service, and something else is also
trying to use the bandwidth you might see problems. I think Apple got burnt
with the iPhone 4 and its antenna problems, so they’ve probably paid more
attention to the cellular side of things since. I know they’ve been quite
cautious in their roll out of 5G whereas others have pushed it out even
before the standards were mature. I think only one vendor has a 5G chipset
in mass production, and it might not be as mature as we’d like. It’s a
really hard engineering problem to squeeze all of this into a handset,
especially the multi band antennas without lots of performance affecting
compromises. A phone, with computer, decent display, decent camera and a
well engineered radio is a miracle of modern engineering. It’s unfortunate
that phone reviews never seem to test the performance of the radio.
Probably because the reviewers know next to nothing about RF.

[Richmond]

"notya...@gmail.com" <notya...@gmail.com> writes:

> IME this is a network problem NOT a phone problem - Voip on a mobile
> (native or in an app') is better than GSM, ISDN or POTS.

When I worked in an office with VOIP, the phones had their own network,
seperate from the intranet. I am concerned that if they switch us at
home from POTS to VOIP we won't have a good enough network for it,
because it will be the same network as all the other stuff.

When using VOIP I have had echo with both iphone and android, but I
can't say that applies to WiFi calling as my iphone never supported it.

I guess the echo happens when the delay on the line is sufficient that
the phone cannot mask out sound going from the speaker to the
microphone, maybe.

Is it possible to force WiFi calling by wrapping foil around the phone
before making a call? Sometimes my phone will make a cellular call when
the reception isn't very good.

[Chris Green]

notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think my original Nokia mobile was more reliable in terms of sound
> > quality. Partly I keep my landline because I prefer the audio -
> > except that most of the incoming calls are from mobiles or VOIP.
>
> See above - analogue landline quality is generally poor.

What's "analogue landline"? Our DECT phones on a 'landline' (i.e.
copper pair to somewhere or other) provide excellent quality not
matched by any other service (telephone service that is) that I've
ever used.

--
Chris Green
·

[Woody]

Easier just to put your phone into aeroplane mode and then turn the wifi
on and it will force wi-fi.
Simples.

[David Higton]

In message <t27iggpvc769kg8hv...@4ax.com>

Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>I received a call this morning and - yet again - the caller was
>complaining about an echo on the line though I could hear him
>perfectly okay. This was using Wi-Fi calling. How can a phone work
>so well as a computer but not as well as a phone?

Were you using the phone in loudpeaking mode? If so, the far end
could probably hear reverberation from the room you were in.

Were the caller and you thousands of miles apart? It's possible
that an analogue leg of the call was not terminated correctly.
This can lead to an electronically generated echo. (Look up the
mathematics of transmission lines to understand why.)

I'm 100% certain that the phone itself is not to blame. It's a
network issue, of some kind, somewhere.

David

[Scott]

On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 18:45:37 +0100, David Higton
<da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

>In message <t27iggpvc769kg8hv...@4ax.com>
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I received a call this morning and - yet again - the caller was
>>complaining about an echo on the line though I could hear him
>>perfectly okay. This was using Wi-Fi calling. How can a phone work
>>so well as a computer but not as well as a phone?
>
>Were you using the phone in loudpeaking mode? If so, the far end
>could probably hear reverberation from the room you were in.

No.

>
>Were the caller and you thousands of miles apart? It's possible
>that an analogue leg of the call was not terminated correctly.
>This can lead to an electronically generated echo. (Look up the
>mathematics of transmission lines to understand why.)

No. Probably under 10 miles. Maybe Vodafone chose a different route?

>
>I'm 100% certain that the phone itself is not to blame. It's a
>network issue, of some kind, somewhere.
>

That's what I thought but it seems to keep happening, both on Wi-Fi
calling and on what I assume is 4G though it's a 5G phone.

[David Higton]

In message <vq4jggl6v9vn06o1u...@4ax.com>

Just with one particular other party, or with everybody?

With a given party, does it happen regardless of who initiated the call?

David

[Scott]

On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 21:40:28 +0100, David Higton

<da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

>In message <vq4jggl6v9vn06o1u...@4ax.com>
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 18:45:37 +0100, David Higton
>><da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <t27iggpvc769kg8hv...@4ax.com>
>>> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I received a call this morning and - yet again - the caller was
>>>>complaining about an echo on the line though I could hear him
>>>>perfectly okay. This was using Wi-Fi calling. How can a phone work
>>>>so well as a computer but not as well as a phone?
>>>
>>>Were you using the phone in loudpeaking mode? If so, the far end
>>>could probably hear reverberation from the room you were in.
>>
>>No.
>>>
>>>Were the caller and you thousands of miles apart? It's possible
>>>that an analogue leg of the call was not terminated correctly.
>>>This can lead to an electronically generated echo. (Look up the
>>>mathematics of transmission lines to understand why.)
>>
>>No. Probably under 10 miles. Maybe Vodafone chose a different route?
>>>
>>>I'm 100% certain that the phone itself is not to blame. It's a
>>>network issue, of some kind, somewhere.
>>>
>>That's what I thought but it seems to keep happening, both on Wi-Fi
>>calling and on what I assume is 4G though it's a 5G phone.
>
>Just with one particular other party, or with everybody?

Several people have said the same thing - not everybody.

>
>With a given party, does it happen regardless of who initiated the call?

I don't really know as I almost never initiate calls from home.

As I matter of interest, can 5G be used to make calls? My phone is 5G
capable and I live in a 5G area. I live in a top floor flat so radio
reception should be good.

In general terms would you recommend base station or Wi-Fi calling?

[Tweed]

I’ve no idea if Vodafone are running voice calls over 5G at the moment. I’m
not even 100% sure if all voice calls are routed over 4G everywhere. It
used to be that the networks couldn’t manage 4G voice so your phone would
be forced back to 3G or 2G. I believe that’s largely fixed now. I’d assume
the same fix would apply to their 5G deployment.

I can’t detect any difference between cellular and Wi-Fi calling calls - I
have to look at my phone’s indicator to see what it is doing.

[Roger]

On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 21:48:06 +0100, Scott
<newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>As I matter of interest, can 5G be used to make calls?

Maybe.

In the "good old days" of 2G and 3G you could take any phone
which wasn't locked to a network and use any network's SIM to
make and received calls.

This is not true for 4G or, as far as I know, 5G. Certain
combinations of phone and network SIM may work, otherwise the
phone has to drop down to 3G, or perhaps even 2G, for a voice
call.
--
Roger

[Abandoned_Trolley]

Are you suggesting that "unlocked" handsets are not as unlocked as we
might like to think ?

[Tweed]

Nope. It’s whether of not that both the handset and the network both
support voice over LTE. (VoLTE). The networks have been slow to roll it
out. I think it has been harder than first thought. My understanding, which
may be faulty, is that 2G and 3G voice calls are circuit switched. 4G only
carries IP and is thus packet switched. I believe the difficulties arise in
maintaining a call between cells of differing technologies. But I’m sure
someone more expert may be along soon.

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 4 August 2021 at 17:44:54 UTC+1, Tweed wrote:
> Abandoned_Trolley <fr...@fred-smith.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 04/08/2021 12:15, Roger wrote:
> >> On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 21:48:06 +0100, Scott
> >> <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>> As I matter of interest, can 5G be used to make calls?
> >>
> >> Maybe.
> >>
> >> In the "good old days" of 2G and 3G you could take any phone
> >> which wasn't locked to a network and use any network's SIM to
> >> make and received calls.
> >>
> >> This is not true for 4G or, as far as I know, 5G. Certain
> >> combinations of phone and network SIM may work, otherwise the
> >> phone has to drop down to 3G, or perhaps even 2G, for a voice
> >> call.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Are you suggesting that "unlocked" handsets are not as unlocked as we
> > might like to think ?

Not really, but you do need a SIM that knows where its network's 4G (and later 5G) frequency allocations are.

> >
> >
> Nope. It’s whether of not that both the handset and the network both
> support voice over LTE. (VoLTE). The networks have been slow to roll it
> out. I think it has been harder than first thought. My understanding, which
> may be faulty, is that 2G and 3G voice calls are circuit switched. 4G only
> carries IP and is thus packet switched. I believe the difficulties arise in
> maintaining a call between cells of differing technologies. But I’m sure
> someone more expert may be along soon.

Back in the dim and distant 1G and 2G calls were passed onto the PSTN network, certainly by BTC. This was essentially circuit switched with PCM (basically multiple 64kbps ISDN) connections between System X (& later Y) exchanges.

I don't work in ICT now, but I would expect that most 3G or higher voice calls would be carried over IP - i.e. statistically multiplexed.

I would not expect any difficulty maintaining calls between cells or systems of different technologies.

[Brian Gregory]

On 03/08/2021 14:39, Richmond wrote:
> "notya...@gmail.com" <notya...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> IME this is a network problem NOT a phone problem - Voip on a mobile
>> (native or in an app') is better than GSM, ISDN or POTS.
>
> When I worked in an office with VOIP, the phones had their own network,
> seperate from the intranet. I am concerned that if they switch us at
> home from POTS to VOIP we won't have a good enough network for it,
> because it will be the same network as all the other stuff.

Yes. If you just get a VOIP phone (or an ATA and a normal phone), and
connect it to your broadband exactly as if it was just another PC, you
are likely to have problems if you try and use VOIP while something is
doing a big upload or download that maxes out your connection.

You need some arrangement to make sure that a) non-VOIP bandwidth
grabbing things don't take all the bandwidth and some is left for VOIP
and b) VOIP has priority so that wherever possible it jumps to the front
of any queue of packets waiting to be sent.

Doing this will slow down your internet by anything up around 25%.
Though there are probably clever ways to make sure the slow down only
occurs while you use VOIP.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

[Scott]

Will there be a difference if OR remove the telephone component from
the line? Will this increase capacity available for broadband?

[Tweed]

Not really. The few kHz down at baseband won’t offer much. I’m not even
sure DSL can exploit 0 to 10kHz. I would hope that ISP supplied routers
with an analogue phone socket (eg as now used by Sky) would support Quality
of Service (QoS) that gives priority to voice packets. That’s how desktop
IP phones in an office environment work.

[Woody]

A single VoIP connection carrying speech takes somewhere around
80-100Kb/s. Ergo if the broadband circuit maxes out with that small
additional load the B/B is not very good.

The simple way around this is, if you need to do a big download do it in
the early hours or at 6-7am when there are few others around (and you
are unlikely to be involved in a VoIP call.) I am on VM nominal 100Mb
(actually more like 110-112Mb) and a multi gigabyte download at 6am
takes almost exactly what it calculates to take for 110Mb.

[Mark]

I have used VoIP with an ATA for over 15 years with four different
routers and I've never had a problem with other broadband usage at home
swamping the available bandwdith. That's starting with a 1Meg ntl service.

Even today I run MS Teams videocalls simultaneously with extensive
upload / download to MS OneDrive and there's no impact whatsoever on the
videocall. Same with VoIP.

It could just be that Virgin (and ntl before it) knows how to prioritise
realtime traffic.

[Mark]

I'm pretty sure the ADSL, VDSL and their derivatives cannot use the
baseband 'POTS' spectrum. Some symmetric DSL technologies do/did, but
were targeted at business broadband services.

[notya...@gmail.com]

Pretty much my experience over the same period too.

On download the Voip bandwidth is ~0.2% of the available bandwidth on a 10/50Mbps link and ~1% of the uplink.

In a busy office environment we had redundancy with a 50 [later 100] Mbps cable link and an 8Mbps [later more] BT back up. We configured the traffic so that with delightful irony all the Voip traffic prioritised the BT link and everything else the cable. Never had a problem even when there were 12 - 20 phones on a phone bank.

[Brian Gregory]

On 06/08/2021 19:14, Woody wrote:
> A single VoIP connection carrying speech takes somewhere around
> 80-100Kb/s. Ergo if the broadband circuit maxes out with that small
> additional load the B/B is not very good.

Normally when you doing a big download the sending website tends build
speed up until it's sending a little too fast and a) a queue forms
somewhere causing a time delay and/or b) packets start to get dropped
somewhere. Exactly what proportion of packets have to get dropped to
keep the sending speed from increasing varies quite a lot.

Typically since the queue and dropping occurs somewhere in, for
instance, Openreach's infrastructure it's more or less random which
packets get dropped so some VOIP packets get dropped too.

VOIP is fairly sensitive to dropped packets, too many and you will hear
dropouts. The same if there's sometimes a queue of a fraction of a
seconds worth of packets and perhaps sometimes not a queue.

Typically you don't need to leave as much as 25% extra download speed
available to get good results in most circumstances but you do need to
leave some extra.

[Brian Gregory]

On 06/08/2021 20:48, Mark wrote:
> I have used VoIP with an ATA for over 15 years with four different
> routers and I've never had a problem with other broadband usage at home
> swamping the available bandwdith. That's starting with a 1Meg ntl service.
>
> Even today I run MS Teams videocalls simultaneously with extensive
> upload / download to MS OneDrive and there's no impact whatsoever on the
> videocall. Same with VoIP.
>
> It could just be that Virgin (and ntl before it) knows how to prioritise
> realtime traffic.

Maybe it's better on cable than on VDSL2.

I guess with cable you're never really maxing out the modems and the
limit is artificially introduced somehow according to what bandwidth
you're paying for.

Or they could be doing some real QoS and separating the packets into
streams and making sure only packets from the highest bandwidth streams
get dropped.