Re: BT dropping PSTN in 2025 - really??

[Scott]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 16:42:21 +0100, Postman Pat
<a...@the-post-office-not.com> wrote:

>Just got another daft email from BT trying to sell BT Internet etc.
>
>It states
>
>>Secondly, I'm sure you're aware that shortly we're going to be turning off all PSTN lines in 2025 - the first step of the digital switchover is next year, we'll no longer to be able to re-activate PSTN lines that go down - so if you're not ready yet, we really need to look at this for you to ensure you won't lose your numbers. Have you already migrated to a cloud platform?
>
>I am not sure whether this is just an illiterate email, but what
>happens when the POTS subscriber
>
>- has no ADSL
>- has no idea what ADSL or VOIP is
>- is on the end of a copper pair which BT fix *for voice* but won't
>fix *for data* for weeks and weeks (the standard BT practice for non
>huge customers)
>- gets regular power cuts *and* has no GSM signal (and probably has no
>mobile phone)
>
>I went to VOIP (from ISDN2 which worked 100% for 20 years) when I got
>FTTP but would not have done so earlier due to poor *data* service
>levels on copper. I would advise anyone to *not* go to VOIP unless
>they have FTTP, and FTTP will take much longer than 2025. At home (N
>of Brighton) there is no FTTP in most of the villages. And no GSM;)
>
>What does this bloke mean by "re-activate PSTN lines that go down"?
>
>And what does "cloud" got to do with VOIP? This is BS, surely :)

I think they are expected to piss off, along with anyone wishing to
interact with central or local government who does not have internet
access.

I saw an advert by National Savings & Investments saying that the
preferred method of selling their 'products' was online. It went on
to say that customers without Internet access could still purchase
from 'participating' post offices, and a full list of participating
post offices could be found on the website.

[Tweed]

Postman Pat <a...@the-post-office-not.com> wrote:
> Just got another daft email from BT trying to sell BT Internet etc.
>
> It states
>
>> Secondly, I'm sure you're aware that shortly we're going to be turning
>> off all PSTN lines in 2025 - the first step of the digital switchover is
>> next year, we'll no longer to be able to re-activate PSTN lines that go
>> down - so if you're not ready yet, we really need to look at this for
>> you to ensure you won't lose your numbers. Have you already migrated to a cloud platform?
>
> I am not sure whether this is just an illiterate email, but what
> happens when the POTS subscriber
>
> - has no ADSL
> - has no idea what ADSL or VOIP is
> - is on the end of a copper pair which BT fix *for voice* but won't
> fix *for data* for weeks and weeks (the standard BT practice for non
> huge customers)
> - gets regular power cuts *and* has no GSM signal (and probably has no
> mobile phone)
>
> I went to VOIP (from ISDN2 which worked 100% for 20 years) when I got
> FTTP but would not have done so earlier due to poor *data* service
> levels on copper. I would advise anyone to *not* go to VOIP unless
> they have FTTP, and FTTP will take much longer than 2025. At home (N
> of Brighton) there is no FTTP in most of the villages. And no GSM;)
>
> What does this bloke mean by "re-activate PSTN lines that go down"?
>
> And what does "cloud" got to do with VOIP? This is BS, surely :)
>

Basically they lose service. There’s no obligation to provide analogue
voice service over a copper pair.

[Scott]

Any additional considerations if the person is vulnerable or has a
disability?

[Wilf]

On 23/08/2022 at 16:42, Postman Pat wrote:
> Just got another daft email from BT trying to sell BT Internet etc.
>
> It states
>
>> Secondly, I'm sure you're aware that shortly we're going to be turning off all PSTN lines in 2025 - the first step of the digital switchover is next year, we'll no longer to be able to re-activate PSTN lines that go down - so if you're not ready yet, we really need to look at this for you to ensure you won't lose your numbers. Have you already migrated to a cloud platform?
>
> I am not sure whether this is just an illiterate email, but what
> happens when the POTS subscriber
>
> - has no ADSL
> - has no idea what ADSL or VOIP is
> - is on the end of a copper pair which BT fix *for voice* but won't
> fix *for data* for weeks and weeks (the standard BT practice for non
> huge customers)
> - gets regular power cuts *and* has no GSM signal (and probably has no
> mobile phone)
>
> I went to VOIP (from ISDN2 which worked 100% for 20 years) when I got
> FTTP but would not have done so earlier due to poor *data* service
> levels on copper. I would advise anyone to *not* go to VOIP unless
> they have FTTP, and FTTP will take much longer than 2025. At home (N
> of Brighton) there is no FTTP in most of the villages. And no GSM;)
>
> What does this bloke mean by "re-activate PSTN lines that go down"?
>
> And what does "cloud" got to do with VOIP? This is BS, surely :)

As far as I'm aware, OFCOM has mandated the demise of PSTN lines by
2025. So it will not be just BT. But someone here may know more and I
could be wrong.

--
Wilf

[Tweed]

Considerations yes, obligations to provide a copper based analogue
telephony service no.

See
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf

See also
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0025/227680/consultation-review-of-telephony-USO.pdf

and

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1904/pdfs/uksi_20031904_en.pdf

[David Woolley]

On 23/08/2022 16:42, Postman Pat wrote:
> Just got another daft email from BT trying to sell BT Internet etc.

Not daft, and sale of POTS has already stopped in parts of the country
and will for all of the country by September 2025.

This topic has been done to death, recently, on <news:uk.telecom> and as
off-topic posts on <news:uk.tech.digital-tv> although that thread has
now drifted to global warming and nuclear power.

This is something that has been brewing for years and already caused an
uproar a year or two ago.

[David Woolley]

On 23/08/2022 16:42, Postman Pat wrote:

> What does this bloke mean by "re-activate PSTN lines that go down"?

It means that if you cease POTS service on a line, including as the
result of moving your account to a new subscriber, you will never be
able to get POTS service back on that line. This is already the case
for a large number of exchanges.

[David Woolley]

On 23/08/2022 19:42, David Woolley wrote:
> Not daft, and sale of POTS has already stopped in parts of the country
> and will for all of the country by September 2025.

I meant September 2023, i.e. just over one year from now.

[David Woolley]

On 23/08/2022 16:42, Postman Pat wrote:

> what
> happens when the POTS subscriber
>
> - has no ADSL
> - has no idea what ADSL or VOIP is

The baseline offering is that they will get a box that plugs into the
mains and a phone socket, together with two DECT handsets, paired with
the box. In some cases, they may get a second box that plugs into the
main, and the first box, and a fibre plugged into that second box.

The first box has a socket into which a single phone can be connected,
and, as alternatives to the two DECT phones they can request either a
wall wart, paired to the first box, and with a phone socket on it (I'm
not sure if this is DECT or WiFi). There is also an option of a single
DECT + Alexa handset, but that is probably only for people who already
have ADSL.

They aren't expected to know that is ADSL or fttp, or that is VoIP,
although different standard features, increased, latency, that it fails
in power cuts, etc., may give away the fact that it isn't POTS. I don't
think they even need to know it is DECT.

In practice, the non-fttp option is fttc/ADSL at 0.5Mbps.

These are BT retail options. I'm not sure if anyone else offers POTS
only over Openreach local loops.

[Andy Burns]

David Woolley wrote:

> In practice, the non-fttp option is fttc/ADSL at 0.5Mbps

They're doing this to let them close the exchange buildings, surely they won't
migrate a pure POTS customer to VoIP over ADSL, only to have to move them again
in a few years? If fttp is available they'll supply that, if VDSL is available
they'll fit that, ADSL must be their least preferred option?

[Theo]

Postman Pat <a...@the-post-office-not.com> wrote:
> Just got another daft email from BT trying to sell BT Internet etc.
>

> It states
>
> >Secondly, I'm sure you're aware that shortly we're going to be turning
> > off all PSTN lines in 2025 - the first step of the digital switchover is
> > next year, we'll no longer to be able to re-activate PSTN lines that go
> > down - so if you're not ready yet, we really need to look at this for
> > you to ensure you won't lose your numbers. Have you already migrated to
> > a cloud platform?

That is a strange email. What part of BT was emailing you about that? BT
Business perhaps (who expect their customers to know what 'PSTN' and 'cloud
platform' mean)? Sounds rather chatty - did it come from an account manager
or similar at BT?

> I am not sure whether this is just an illiterate email, but what

> happens when the POTS subscriber
>
> - has no ADSL
> - has no idea what ADSL or VOIP is

> - is on the end of a copper pair which BT fix *for voice* but won't
> fix *for data* for weeks and weeks (the standard BT practice for non
> huge customers)
> - gets regular power cuts *and* has no GSM signal (and probably has no
> mobile phone)

I don't think those people will have migrated their PSTN to a cloud
platform, not having a clue what those things are.

I think they are currently migrating VDSL customers over to SOGEA (ie with
no analogue voice). I'm not sure what the plan is for voice-only customers
at the moment - they can provision those capable of VDSL or decent ADSL with
a DSL service and a router to plug in their phone.

I'm not sure what happens to those on marginal lines not really capable of
ADSL, but those people are few.

> I went to VOIP (from ISDN2 which worked 100% for 20 years) when I got
> FTTP but would not have done so earlier due to poor *data* service
> levels on copper. I would advise anyone to *not* go to VOIP unless
> they have FTTP, and FTTP will take much longer than 2025. At home (N
> of Brighton) there is no FTTP in most of the villages. And no GSM;)

What's your definition of 'poor data service'? Can you get 512Kbps up and
down? That's what a 'voice only' FTTP line gives you. Obviously FTTP is
more reliable than copper, but VOIP generally works fine in that kind of
bandwidth.

If your line is so bad that you can't get that, I assume they will either
not turn off your PSTN or put you top of the list for FTTP. I think those
are relatively rare.

There is the power cut issue, which has rightly been highlighted by many
others. That is mostly solved with batteries, but Openreach have
cheapskated out of that one, and I think the solution is just providing a
suitable battery pack to those in that position. That should have been part
of the design from the outset, but it seems like they're hastily trying to
paper over their omissions.

> What does this bloke mean by "re-activate PSTN lines that go down"?

Not sure, but I suspect it means you can't order PSTN service on an existing
line that is still in place but has previously been cancelled.

> And what does "cloud" got to do with VOIP? This is BS, surely :)

Many businesses have migrated their voice calls from the telco who provides
their wires to a third party VOIP operation over the internet. The 'cloud
providers' offer lots of fancy business features like virtual telephone
exchanges, online voicemail, call routing services and load balancing, menu
trees, call recording for compliance, etc etc - as well as way cheaper
calls. Businesses still using old fashioned copper voice lines are
dwindling, mostly small businesses that don't use the phone very much.

(Some of the smaller scale cloud VOIP operators are fine to use as a
domestic phone provider over your broadband, paying £0-2 per month for a
number)

Theo

[David Woolley]

On 23/08/2022 21:37, Andy Burns wrote:
> if VDSL is available they'll fit that, ADSL must be their least
> preferred option?

I think I really meant VDSL, although I think ADSL and VDSL are
basically the same technology (COFDM) with different parameters, and
0.5Mb/s isn't going to use many sub-carriers.

[Bob Eager]

VDSL does, of course, eliminate the need for copper from the cabinet to
the exchange (given that there is no POTS provision).

[Scott]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 17:58:58 -0000 (UTC), Tweed

>>> Basically they lose service. There?s no obligation to provide analogue

>>> voice service over a copper pair.
>>
>> Any additional considerations if the person is vulnerable or has a
>> disability?
>>
>
>Considerations yes, obligations to provide a copper based analogue
>telephony service no.
>
>See
>https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf
>
>See also
>https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0025/227680/consultation-review-of-telephony-USO.pdf
>
>and
>
>https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1904/pdfs/uksi_20031904_en.pdf

Thanks. I'll read all this with interest later.

[Scott]

Can this be given battery back-up or alternatively uninterruptible
power supply at 230 volts? Will the phone work independent of the
router?

[Mark Carver]

And that's the thing. I can easily 'picture' the copper trunks between
the exchange and cabinet going by 2025,
but FTTC/VDSL is still going to be with us well into the 2030s. (i.e
copper from cabinet to home)

[David Woolley]

On 24/08/2022 09:55, Bob Eager wrote:

> VDSL does, of course, eliminate the need for copper from the cabinet to
> the exchange (given that there is no POTS provision).

That's actually FTTC that does that. There's no technical reason why a
cabinet couldn't generate an ADSL interface (I'd rather suspect VDSL
chip sets have that as standard). The reason that VDSL isn't used from
exchanges is that the full speed distance is limited.

VDSL tends to force the use of FTTC, rather than enabling it.

[David Woolley]

On 24/08/2022 10:14, Scott wrote:
> Can this be given battery back-up or alternatively uninterruptible
> power supply at 230 volts? Will the phone work independent of the
> router?

Given that it is mains powered, you can use a UPS. Assuming phone only
users get the same hardware as BT retail xDSL customers (Smart Hub 2),
which seems likely, from an inventory point of view, it is their
standard current offering, it is wall wart powered, but there is no
information whether it is AC or DC. Many early routers were AC powered.

The router is the DECT base station, so the supplied phone, obviously
won't work without it. The alternatives involved plugging the phone
into the router or using a device paired with the router.

You may well be able to pair the phones with a different DECT base
station, but I don't see how that helps.

[Bob Eager]

And of course, there's no guarantee that the fibre even goes to the same
exchange. Smaller exchanges can be closed.

[David Woolley]

On 24/08/2022 10:14, Scott wrote:

> Can this be given battery back-up or alternatively uninterruptible
> power supply at 230 volts? Will the phone work independent of the
> router?

This was my primary source <https://www.bt.com/broadband/digital-voice>

[Bob Eager]

I didn't put that very well. What I mean is that FTTC/VDSL can exist
without the copper to the exchange, if there is some other phone
provision (i.e. VoIP). In fact, that's effectively what I have (I have no
POTS on my copper connection).

There is no need for the fibre to go to the same exchange, so a few
bigger places to terminate fibre will suffice.

Then the smaller exchanges can be closed and the copper removed, apart
from that still going from the cabinet to the premises.

In the fullness of time, even that copper will go, or that is the stated
intention.

[Martin Brown]

On 24/08/2022 10:31, David Woolley wrote:
> On 24/08/2022 09:55, Bob Eager wrote:
>> VDSL does, of course, eliminate the need for copper from the cabinet to
>> the exchange (given that there is no POTS provision).
>
> That's actually FTTC that does that.  There's no technical reason why a
> cabinet couldn't generate an ADSL interface (I'd rather suspect VDSL
> chip sets have that as standard).  The reason that VDSL isn't used from
> exchanges is that the full speed distance is limited.

The other reason is that VDSL generates enough interference that they
don't want it in the Exchange. They install a new FTTC cabinet near the
exchange but external for people on Exchange Only lines to get VDSL.

> VDSL tends to force the use of FTTC, rather than enabling it.

It sort of does both. ADSL signals are just about slow enough that it
can go back to the exchange without causing too much trouble.

They do seem to be rolling out FTTP fairly aggressively in places where
the copper circuits are overstretched and on their last legs. My village
they were breaking one working ADSL line for every two they tried to
repair. Something had to give and FTTP seems to be their fix for it.

There are several internet refuseniks in the village so I will know soon
enough what happens when they are upgraded to FTTP. One has care on call
over POTS so that could be very interesting indeed. Apparently the
supposed battery backup option is as rare as hens teeth and not always
correctly installed when it is provided. :(

https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-phone-including-Digital/Digital-Voice-Backup-Battery/td-p/2215888

I thought they had halted rollout to vulnerable customers because of
these various SNAFUs. I'm now on BT's digital voice service.

FWIW I think the 2025 date is fantasy land invented by some desk jockey
who has no clue about the state of the UK telecoms network.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[David Woolley]

On 24/08/2022 19:18, Martin Brown wrote:
> One has care on call over POTS so that could be very interesting indeed.

I believe the social alarm people had a lot of advance warning, and I
believe they are generally moving to mobile network based solutions.

[Martin Brown]

How exactly is that supposed to work in remote rural areas with no
reliable indoor mobile phone coverage? Like my village for example.

I can see it would probably be OK in cities. Even then I know people who
live in localised not spots in otherwise well covered areas - usually
close up against a steep cliff with the masts at the top of it...

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[MB]

On 24/08/2022 20:28, Martin Brown wrote:
> How exactly is that supposed to work in remote rural areas with no
> reliable indoor mobile phone coverage? Like my village for example.

Not just "remote rural areas", often if I am in soemwhere like a cafe
with no public WiFi then I will try 4G, more often than not I cannot get
a connection inside.

Some years ago my employer decided we did not need a landline phone at
work so we had use mobile phones all the time, we quite often had to
stand outside the front door to make a call.

[Mark Carver]

On 24/08/2022 20:28, Martin Brown wrote:

> On 24/08/2022 20:12, David Woolley wrote:
>> On 24/08/2022 19:18, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> One has care on call over POTS so that could be very interesting
>>> indeed.
>>
>> I believe the social alarm  people had a lot of advance warning, and
>> I believe they are generally moving to mobile network based solutions.
>
> How exactly is that supposed to work in remote rural areas with no
> reliable indoor mobile phone coverage? Like my village for example.
>

It won't work, as we've discussed ad-infinitum. If a particular person
is that vulnerable, you may need to review the wisdom of living in such
an isolated location

[Woody]

Maybe they were not vulnerable when they moved there say 40+ years ago
(we've been here 32 years come the end of November) and the upheaval of
moving in your 60's or more is probably not viable, apart from the
stress involved, your friends living locally, and the effort in finding
somewhere else to live.

No, in my book this is typical metrocentric Civil Service thinking
supported by ministers who in reality haven't a clue.

[MB]

On 25/08/2022 09:04, Mark Carver wrote:
> It won't work, as we've discussed ad-infinitum. If a particular person
> is that vulnerable, you may need to review the wisdom of living in such
> an isolated location

So someone who might have lived in a village (or even the same house)
all their life with neighbours to support them, should moved to a
strange area or the dreaded old people's home?

[Mark Carver]

On 25/08/2022 10:00, Woody wrote:
> On Thu 25/08/2022 09:04, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 24/08/2022 20:28, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> On 24/08/2022 20:12, David Woolley wrote:
>>>> On 24/08/2022 19:18, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>> One has care on call over POTS so that could be very interesting
>>>>> indeed.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the social alarm  people had a lot of advance warning,
>>>> and I believe they are generally moving to mobile network based
>>>> solutions.
>>>
>>> How exactly is that supposed to work in remote rural areas with no
>>> reliable indoor mobile phone coverage? Like my village for example.
>>>
>> It won't work, as we've discussed ad-infinitum. If a particular
>> person is that vulnerable, you may need to review the wisdom of
>> living in such an isolated location
>
>
> Maybe they were not vulnerable when they moved there say 40+ years ago
> (we've been here 32 years come the end of November) and the upheaval
> of moving in your 60's or more is probably not viable, apart from the
> stress involved, your friends living locally, and the effort in
> finding somewhere else to live.

The best thing my aunt and uncle did just before they both hit 70 was
downsize, and move into manageable retirement accommodation. All their
neighbours and local friends had either died or moved away.
My parents were horrified, and even more horrified when I suggested they
did the same. I wish now (23 years later) I'd pushed them harder to do it.
Fortunately my mother lives 100 metres from a VF/O2 cell site, and has
80/20 VDSL, only 6 miles from a major hospital, and 10 miles from me
(her only remaining family member) in a suburban environment. Despite
all of that, it's still really 'difficult' to deal with her, (despite a
daily carer who goes in, mostly for my own peace of mind).
It would be impossible if she was in a remote rural situation, and I
doubt (for starters) I could find any care company willing to visit.

> No, in my book this is typical metrocentric Civil Service thinking
> supported by ministers who in reality haven't a clue.
>

They certainly don't, but I'm afraid we are all going to have to work
around that.

[Mark Carver]

See my other post. If they still have neighbours alive and with marbles,
still  supporting them, then that's possibly the 'route' for on going
'emergency' support

[Martin Brown]

On 25/08/2022 09:04, Mark Carver wrote:

Elderly living alone is enough if you should fall and be immobilised by
breaking a leg. More common than you might think osteoporosis sneaks up.

They have lived in the village all their life and have all their friends
and a support network there. Why should *they* be forced to move into
town because BT CBA to provide a reliable working rural phone service?

It has to be made robust against power failure for those who depend on
it for their safety. Safety critical systems should not be compromised.

Offcom CBA to regulate the telecoms industry. Not fit for purpose!

There is no way that "improvements" to speed for the few like me should
be allowed to result in total loss of a critical facility like care on
call for the elderly residents. Even BT seem to have tacitly accepted
that and have AFAICT stopped the rollout to elderly no internet users.

It doesn't have to be POTS but it *does* have to work in a powercut!
Falls are much more likely during a powercut and in the dark.

Some elderly residents still tend their allotments at 90+ years of age
here so they only need the care on call as an insurance policy for
living alone in case they should fall whilst alone in their home.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Mark Carver]

On 25/08/2022 10:19, Martin Brown wrote:
>
> Elderly living alone is enough if you should fall and be immobilised
> by breaking a leg. More common than you might think osteoporosis
> sneaks up.

Yes, I know thank you. My mother broke her hip, and thanks to her fall
alarm help arrived within the hour (and in the middle of lockdown).
However, she lives in a suburban environment, that played a big part.

> They have lived in the village all their life and have all their
> friends and a support network there. Why should *they* be forced to
> move into town because BT CBA to provide a reliable working rural
> phone service?

See above, it's not just phone services that are crap in rural
environments, you need to assess things at a much broader level.

> It doesn't have to be POTS but it *does* have to work in a powercut!
> Falls are much more likely during a powercut and in the dark.

I agree. So the solution is a UPS then ? Get on a buy one, don't bother
waiting for 'the state' to supply it.

[David Woolley]

On 25/08/2022 10:19, Martin Brown wrote:

> Offcom CBA to regulate the telecoms industry. Not fit for purpose!

Ofcom implements government policy. Current policy is pro-business
(Rishi was reported, today, as regretting being swayed too far against
this by the scientists during Covid, and the likely successful candidate
is further to the right), pro-personal responsibility, small government
(little regulation), and anti public expenditure.

We've just been dragged out of the EU basically because the EU liked
regulating for social, rather than profit, reasons, for the government's
liking.

The alarm companies are are effectively outsourced public expenditure,
although what the government may be forgetting is that care in the
community is cheaper, for the public purse, than paying for care homes.

It's an interesting thought that the electorate for the Tory leadership
may be biassed towards the generation that is affected by such issues,
but even the less right wing of the candidates, is still very much into
business knows best, and personal responsibility. I guess many of them
can afford a high mast for the mobile terminal.

Incidentally, I wouldn't consider being in ones 60's as that old.

I looked at AgeUK on this and they seem to be making surprisingly little
fuss about it.

One side point is that smart meters also require a good mobile
connection, although I think they can hop from meter to meter to find
one with such a connection. Maybe social alarm companies will need to
relay between installations.

[David Woolley]

On 25/08/2022 10:19, Martin Brown wrote:

> It doesn't have to be POTS but it *does* have to work in a powercut!
> Falls are much more likely during a powercut and in the dark.

A telecare industry body does seem to have a guidance document, but you
almost have to give your life history before they will let you look at
it, so I haven't done that:

<https://www.tsa-voice.org.uk/campaigns/digital-shift/mobile-communication/>

This is from one of the alarm companies:
<https://taking.care/blogs/resources-advice/will-personal-alarm-work-after-digital-telephone-switchover>

They point out that the battery backup offering is likely to only cover
you for one hour.

They offer a range of, what appear to be mobile network based, options,
and looking at the brochure, they say they use a multi-network SIM,
presumably to improve the coverage.

I've also found a document,
<https://www.local.gov.uk/our-support/sector-support-offer/supporting-financial-resilience-and-economic-recovery/digital/switchover/digital-switchover-toolkit-commissioners>
from central government to councils, about this, although it doesn't
seem to mention the power and network outage issues.

Note that this isn't just about speed, it is also that the copper is
becoming a maintenance liability, and also they have a lot of real
estate in exchanges, that can be sold off.

[Mark Carver]

On 25/08/2022 14:09, David Woolley wrote:
> On 25/08/2022 10:19, Martin Brown wrote:
>> It doesn't have to be POTS but it *does* have to work in a powercut!
>> Falls are much more likely during a powercut and in the dark.
>
> A telecare industry body does seem to have a guidance document, but
> you almost have to give your life history before they will let you
> look at it, so I haven't done that:
>
> <https://www.tsa-voice.org.uk/campaigns/digital-shift/mobile-communication/>
>
>
> This is from one of the alarm companies:
> <https://taking.care/blogs/resources-advice/will-personal-alarm-work-after-digital-telephone-switchover>
>
> They point out that the battery backup offering is likely to only
> cover you for one hour.

I don't understand that. You only need to be using 'serious' power in
the event of the device making a call. Surely the quiescent power draw
for the device to be listening out for the pendant signal should be tiny
? If the battery of a modern 'dumb mobile phone' can keep that powered
in standby for a few weeks then.......

[MB]

On 25/08/2022 10:19, Martin Brown wrote:

> Offcom CBA to regulate the telecoms industry. Not fit for purpose!

The trouble is that it will left to BT provide the service whilst as
usual other telecom companies cherry-pick and won't provide service.

[Scott]

I believe there is also a risk of the cabinet being cut off in a power
cut. However, with fibre to the premises does this mean no
electricity is required except at the home (UPS) and whatever replaces
the exchange (which will be some sort of data centre with full
back-up)?

[MB]

On 25/08/2022 09:04, Mark Carver wrote:

> It won't work, as we've discussed ad-infinitum. If a particular person
> is that vulnerable, you may need to review the wisdom of living in such
> an isolated location

A friend lived in the outskirts of Glasgow and also had a cottage
several miles down a track (including crossing a mainline railway line!)
with no electricity, water or sewers.

He researched where he would retire to and had a list of services he
wanted including bus service, library van visits ...

The only thing he did not think of of was that when he had a fire at his
house, the fire engine could not get through his gate so must have been
delayed slightly so increasing the damage from the fire.

[Mark Carver]

On 25/08/2022 14:37, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 10:34:29 +0100, Mark Carver
> <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 25/08/2022 10:19, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> Elderly living alone is enough if you should fall and be immobilised
>>> by breaking a leg. More common than you might think osteoporosis
>>> sneaks up.
>> Yes, I know thank you. My mother broke her hip, and thanks to her fall
>> alarm help arrived within the hour (and in the middle of lockdown).
>> However, she lives in a suburban environment, that played a big part.
>>
>>> They have lived in the village all their life and have all their
>>> friends and a support network there. Why should *they* be forced to
>>> move into town because BT CBA to provide a reliable working rural
>>> phone service?
>> See above, it's not just phone services that are crap in rural
>> environments, you need to assess things at a much broader level.
>>
>>> It doesn't have to be POTS but it *does* have to work in a powercut!
>>> Falls are much more likely during a powercut and in the dark.
>> I agree. So the solution is a UPS then ? Get on a buy one, don't bother
>> waiting for 'the state' to supply it.
>>
> I believe there is also a risk of the cabinet being cut off in a power
> cut.

The local street cabinet plays no part in FTTP, the fibre goes directly
back to the head end (which is not necessarily located at your local
exchange either)

[Mark Carver]

On 25/08/2022 14:42, MB wrote:
>
> The only thing he did not think of of was that when he had a fire at
> his house, the fire engine could not get through his gate so must have
> been delayed slightly so increasing the damage from the fire.

Actually with the modern trend of streets full of badly parked cars,
this is more of an issue in urban, rather than rural areas !

[David Woolley]

On 25/08/2022 14:18, Mark Carver wrote:
>
> I don't understand that. You only need to be using 'serious' power in
> the event of the device making a call. Surely the quiescent power draw
> for the device to be listening out for the pendant signal should be tiny
> ? If the battery of a modern 'dumb mobile phone' can keep that powered
> in standby for a few weeks then.......
>

This relates to using Digital Voice, not the mobile network, and is the
power to drive the BT (Openreach) router, and possibly the optical
network termination, and the offering is the BT offering, not the alarm
company one.

[Mark Carver]

I pushed sent too early !  The head end will require a UPS/Genny, but
that's standard stuff for such a place. No guarantee any of it will work
when actually required though !

[David Woolley]

On 25/08/2022 14:48, Mark Carver wrote:

> The local street cabinet plays no part in FTTP, the fibre goes directly
> back to the head end (which is not necessarily located at your local
> exchange either)

There are passive splitters and combiners, which only make sense when
very close to the consumer, although it might be that they on top of the
pole rather than in the cabinet.

[Mark Carver]

 Well, BT clearly have lost the ability to engineer something fit for
purpose.

I suspect the alarm industry will step in with a proper UPS based system
that they can install (for a price of course)

[Mark Carver]

They usually are located alongside the copper Drop Points, so either up
a pole, or down a manhole. BT will be keen to eventually get rid of
street cabinets (as will some councils, judging by the comments I've
seen on my local council planning portal regarding FTTC cabinets)

[David Woolley]

On 25/08/2022 14:58, Mark Carver wrote:
> Well, BT clearly have lost the ability to engineer something fit for
> purpose.
>
> I suspect the alarm industry will step in with a proper UPS based system
> that they can install (for a price of course)

On some of the other newsgroups, running this, there have been reports
of a UPS being provided, but basically special cases are expected to
call BT to discuss them, so there is no public statement of the full set
of options, and policy is probably fluid across time and location.

Also, traditionally, UPS' are most commonly used to give you enough time
to shut a system down cleanly, or switch to a diesel generator, not to
cover major storm damage.

[David Woolley]

On 25/08/2022 15:06, Mark Carver wrote:
> judging by the comments I've seen on my local council planning portal
> regarding FTTC cabinets

Are you sure those aren't the Virgin Media ones? They are the ones with
the trade mark open doors, or are crumpled by a minor graze by vehicle.

[Martin Brown]

On 25/08/2022 14:37, Scott wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 10:34:29 +0100, Mark Carver
> <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 25/08/2022 10:19, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> It doesn't have to be POTS but it *does* have to work in a powercut!
>>> Falls are much more likely during a powercut and in the dark.
>>
>> I agree. So the solution is a UPS then ? Get on a buy one, don't bother
>> waiting for 'the state' to supply it.

I have a UPS and know how to configure it. The people I am concerned
about are my elderly technophobic neighbours who have been able to live
an independent life in their community with the help of care on call who
are now through no fault of theirs being summarily dumped by BT.

> I believe there is also a risk of the cabinet being cut off in a power
> cut. However, with fibre to the premises does this mean no
> electricity is required except at the home (UPS) and whatever replaces
> the exchange (which will be some sort of data centre with full
> back-up)?

The fibres run back to a main exchange ~10-20km away which should be
reasonably well provisioned with batteries and/or backup generator
supply. The local exchanges will be redundant once rollout is complete.

I suspect realising the real estate value of some of these exchanges is
one reason why they are in such a hurry to roll it out ready or not.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Mark Carver]

 Nope. Openreach applied to add a second FTTC cabinet in 2014 at the
end of our road.There were some ridiculous comments from the Parish
Council, such as 'Why can't they just swap the present cabinet for a
larger one ?'

[Mark Carver]

Well, that provokes  a wider question whether it is appropriate for a
vulnerable person to be left alone in a house with no electricity for an
extended period (i.e >12 to 24hrs)

[Mark Carver]

On 25/08/2022 15:21, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 25/08/2022 14:37, Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 10:34:29 +0100, Mark Carver
>> <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/08/2022 10:19, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> It doesn't have to be POTS but it *does* have to work in a powercut!
>>>> Falls are much more likely during a powercut and in the dark.
>>>
>>> I agree. So the solution is a UPS then ? Get on a buy one, don't bother
>>> waiting for 'the state' to supply it.
>
> I have a UPS and know how to configure it. The people I am concerned
> about are my elderly technophobic neighbours who have been able to
> live an independent life in their community with the help of care on
> call who are now through no fault of theirs being summarily dumped by BT.

Indeed. But at least they have you as a neighbour......

How do they deal with more trivial matters such as retuning the telly,
or resetting the microwave clock ?

[Andy Burns]

David Woolley wrote:

> On some of the other newsgroups, running this, there have been reports of a UPS
> being provided

When FTTP was first supplied, they provided a 12V UPS, but it only had 4xAA NiMH
rechargeables, and the end user was expected to replace them when they died,
suppose it might take normal AAs during a power cut providing you didn't let it
try to charge them once power was restored?

<https://youtu.be/1-6LKAPlEyk?t=338>

[Mark Carver]

 Of course, on that particular version of FTTP install, the phone port
is on the ONT unit, so you don't have to power the router as well to
maintain the phone service.

My son has that in his 2017 flat. The phone port died when he migrated
the service from BT Retail to Sky in 2020. His phone port is now on the
Sky router. (not that he cares of course)

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> I suspect realising the real estate value of some of these exchanges is one
> reason why they are in such a hurry to roll it out ready or not.

BT sold them off (and rented them back) 20+ years ago, I think they might get a
slice when they're actually closed down as exchanges.

[David Wade]

On 25/08/2022 14:58, Mark Carver wrote:

I feel every one involved, so OFCOM, OpenReach, Government designed the
system whilst wearing rose tinted specs, and assumed power cuts would be
of short durations.

The official guidance (is this the latest?):-

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf

1.9 This statement confirms the Principles we set out in our
consultation. In summary:

1. Providers should have at least one solution available that enables
access to emergency organisations for a minimum of one hour in the event
of a power outage in the premises;

2. The solution should be suitable for customers’ needs and should be
offered free of charge to those who are at risk as they are dependent on
their landline;

3. Providers should

i) take steps to identify at risk customers and
ii) engage in effective communications to ensure all customers
understand the risk and eligibility criteria and can request the
protection solution; and

4. Providers should have a process to ensure that customers who move to
a new house or whose circumstances change in some other way are aware of
the risk and protection solution available
--------------------------------------------------------------

1.11 The obligations in GCA3.2(b) are extensive, and the guidance is not
intended to be the definitive guide on how providers can comply with
this Condition. Instead, the guidance sets out Ofcom’s expectations in
relation to what providers should do to maintain access to
emergency organisations in the event of a power cut at the customer’s
home or premises.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

So, basically , they need 1 hour, and it does not matter what tech they
include. Apparently Virgin are only offering Mobile.

Dave

[Scott]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 15:19:31 +0100, David Woolley
<da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:

>On 25/08/2022 14:58, Mark Carver wrote:
>> Well, BT clearly have lost the ability to engineer something fit for
>> purpose.
>>
>> I suspect the alarm industry will step in with a proper UPS based system
>> that they can install (for a price of course)
>
>On some of the other newsgroups, running this, there have been reports
>of a UPS being provided, but basically special cases are expected to
>call BT to discuss them, so there is no public statement of the full set
>of options, and policy is probably fluid across time and location.

Does BT have a special responsibility? I assumed they were all
subject to the same licence conditions.

[Woody]

As I said yesterday these are decisions made by London-based
metrocentric Civil Servants- many of whom do not have a clue- driven by
politicians who have even less!

[Martin Brown]

On 25/08/2022 15:39, Mark Carver wrote:

They can generally manage appliance clocks OK and more surprisingly a
VHS recorder too. DVD is player only and practically foolproof.

I do retune one TV regularly for the 90 year old every time they
randomise the DAB MUX (even during lockdown). It is a Polaroid model
from the era when default tuner was analogue and it has a habit of
occasionally resetting itself into that default state with snow on the
screen and nothing apparently working. I last did it a couple of weeks
ago. Only happens every 6 months or so when a channel they watch is
affected or the stupid thing does a hard reset to factory defaults.

It is well past its use by date but they like it and know how to use it
(at least when it is in a normally working state).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Tweed]

In a figure I read in an, I think, ofcom report, 68% of users who relied on
a landline only had mains powered cordless phones. So all this talk of what
to do in the event of the fabled power cut comes to nothing for them.

[MikeS]

On 26/08/2022 15:19, Postman Pat wrote:
> Interesting input - thank you all!
>
> Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> That is a strange email. What part of BT was emailing you about that? BT
>> Business perhaps (who expect their customers to know what 'PSTN' and 'cloud
>> platform' mean)? Sounds rather chatty - did it come from an account manager
>> or similar at BT?
>
> This is the email I got:
>
>> Subject: Your BT account review
>> From: Mark Holman <mark.2...@btlocalbusiness.co.uk>
>> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 14:54:00 +0000
>>
>> Dear xxxxx,
>>
>> I hope you're well. I'm sure you're aware that I'm your BT Account Manager - I'm getting in touch to find out if I can help with a few key areas.
>>
>> I can see that we've have had a lot of customers in your postcode area contacting us for our dedicated internet connection product - BT Net. It may be that the standard internet in your area isn't giving enough upload and download speeds for the applications that are being used in their businesses, and need a more robust and reliable solution. BT net is the most reliable solution for businesses who are internet reliant, and it has a 78% market share in the UK now. Take a look at the video if you'd like a bit more info BT Net - the UK's most reliable internet connection.<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvimeo.com%2F272727803&data=05%7C01%7Cjessica.2.davies%40bt.com%7Cab00e9ba19d641dcb48a08da64e5c717%7Ca7f356889c004d5eba4129f146377ab0%7C0%7C0%7C637933235424731212%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kfqxz2%2FS0U2WUpfqIgKmp7c%2FzcxBZqGVR4ygKjkVZgY%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Secondly, I'm sure you're aware that shortly we're going to be turning off all PSTN lines in 2025 - the first step of the digital switchover is next year, we'll no longer to be able to re-activate PSTN lines that go down - so if you're not ready yet, we really need to look at this for you to ensure you won't lose your numbers. Have you already migrated to a cloud platform?
>>
>> Lastly, I'm sure you're aware we've bought EE - do let me know when your mobile contract is due, not only are we able to provide preferential pricing as a BT customer but we're now the only provider to link mobiles natively into your telephone system, as well as abolishing data overage charges.
>>
>> Do let me know when a good time to catch up is.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>> Mark Holman
>>
>> Senior Account Manager
>>
>> Telephone: 01293 603789 op5
>>
>> Mobile: 07918 699539

And ??
So BT is selling their other services to existing customers. All
companies do it all the time. Most of us just delete the email or bin
the letter if not interested.

[David Wade]

On 26/08/2022 15:19, Postman Pat wrote:
> Interesting input - thank you all!
>
> Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> That is a strange email. What part of BT was emailing you about that? BT
>> Business perhaps (who expect their customers to know what 'PSTN' and 'cloud
>> platform' mean)? Sounds rather chatty - did it come from an account manager
>> or similar at BT?
>
> This is the email I got:
>
>> Subject: Your BT account review
>> From: Mark Holman <mark.2...@btlocalbusiness.co.uk>
>> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 14:54:00 +0000

So not BT at all. From their web site:-


What is BT Local Business?

We are an extensive network of independent telecoms businesses, who know
everything there is to know about BT Business’ products and services. We
have each been carefully selected by BT, and have the full backing of
the entire organisation. This means we can support small to 'medium
sized' businesses with the regional knowledge only local businesses
could have, but with the technology, infrastructure, resources and wider
expertise only the UK’s leading communications provider has.

[David Woolley]

On 26/08/2022 16:57, David Wade wrote:
> So not BT at all. From their web site:-
>
>
> What is BT Local Business?
>
> We are an extensive network of independent telecoms businesses, who know
> everything there is to know about BT Business’ products and services. We
> have each been carefully selected by BT, and have the

It looks like it is closer to BT than the average McDonalds restaurant
is to McDonalds. Its a BT franchise with the added benefit of exclusive
access to a geographic area.

[grinch]

On 24/08/2022 10:49, David Woolley wrote:
> On 24/08/2022 10:14, Scott wrote:
>> Can this be given battery back-up or alternatively uninterruptible
>> power supply at 230 volts?  Will the phone work independent of the
>> router?
>
> This was my primary source <https://www.bt.com/broadband/digital-voice>

All of this presumes that the next link in the chain has working battery
backup.

UPS or not, if the BTOR kit is down no digital voice. Also perhaps no
mobile phones either depends on the duration of the power outage.

When was the last time your saw cell tower batteries being changed?

[David Woolley]

On 26/08/2022 20:13, grinch wrote:
> UPS or not, if the BTOR kit is down no digital voice. Also perhaps no
> mobile phones either depends on the duration of the power outage.

With FTTP, the BT Openreach equipment shouldn't require power. As I
understand it, Openreach only cover the local connections not the
exchanges, and no power is needed at any point mid-fibre.

Mobile networks do require relatively local power, and backup generator
fuel tends to get stolen, so I'd expect them to go down relatively quickly.

[MB]

On 26/08/2022 20:13, grinch wrote:

> When was the last time your saw cell tower batteries being changed?

Several times we found the old batteries dumped in our building (used by
mobile phone site-sharers) and they denied it was them even though
plenty of evidence on labels etc.

Unfortunately our company just paid for collection and disposal rather
than take action against them.

[Martin Brown]

On 26/08/2022 10:17, Tweed wrote:

> In a figure I read in an, I think, ofcom report, 68% of users who relied on
> a landline only had mains powered cordless phones. So all this talk of what
> to do in the event of the fabled power cut comes to nothing for them.

That is quite believable.

Only the cognoscenti still have a plain old POTS phone that doesn't
require mains to work even if all the rest are DECT handsets.
I generally report mains outages for my village because I can!

I'd be less sanguine about it if I thought that powercuts would be
infrequent and of short duration. My UPS only lasts a hour or so and was
already dead before we woke up the morning after storm Arwen.

We were off grid for 2 days and many people close by were off for over a
week in mid-winter. Many of them were on borehole pumped water supply
too so had no water either.

Northern Powergrid couldn't run a piss up in a brewery.
But they are very good at skimping on preventative maintenance so that
their poles all fall down like dominoes when the wind blows hard.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 25/08/2022 15:35, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 25/08/2022 15:19, David Woolley wrote:
>> On 25/08/2022 14:58, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> Well, BT clearly have lost the ability to engineer something fit for
>>> purpose.
>>>
>>> I suspect the alarm industry will step in with a proper UPS based
>>> system that they can install (for a price of course)

No- they are angling to sell new mobile network based devices (but that
only delays the problem). Powercuts are now plenty long enough to run
the batteries on base stations down so that to get a mobile signal on
day two you have to drive to outside of the affected area.

North Yorkshire had a rough deal after storm Arwen. Not as rough as
Northumberland where there were people off supply for a fortnight.

>> On some of the other newsgroups, running this, there have been reports
>> of a UPS being provided, but basically special cases are expected to
>> call BT to discuss them, so there is no public statement of the full
>> set of options, and policy is probably fluid across time and location.
>>
>> Also, traditionally, UPS' are most commonly used to give you enough
>> time to shut a system down cleanly, or switch to a diesel generator,
>> not to cover major storm damage.
>
> Well, that provokes  a wider question whether it is appropriate for a
> vulnerable person to be left alone in a house with no electricity for an
> extended period (i.e >12 to 24hrs)

In general no - most moved to a friend or relatives house on the first
day since they couldn't do things like light a fire safely on their own.
No central heating is pretty disastrous for the elderly and infirm.

Families who were ultra green and on air source heat pumps didn't do too
well either - they had to be put up in hotels.

My dual fuel boiler can keep living room and master bedroom warm and the
hot water tank boiling hot without power for running the pump. Have to
be a bit careful not to run it too hard though. It can provide heat for
the entire CH system if the pump is running and at maximum output.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[David Woolley]

On 27/08/2022 14:24, Martin Brown wrote:
> My dual fuel boiler can keep living room and master bedroom warm and the
> hot water tank boiling hot without power for running the pump. Have to
> be a bit careful not to run it too hard though. It can provide heat for
>  the entire CH system if the pump is running and at maximum output.

Normal gas boilers, even oldish ones, are dead in the water without
electricity, as one of my neighbours was surprised to discover. (Mine's
old enough that the pilot continues to keep the boiler itself slightly
warm.)

[Woody]

Like it or not it is also a good reason to keep an Aga* if you have one.
Hot water, all cooking, and it keeps the house temperate. *Gas

[Woody]

We too have a gas coal-effect enclosed stove in the lounge and the pilot
light keeps the body (particularly the hood) tepid enough to take the
chill off the 18x12ft room.

[BrightsideS9]

On Sat, 27 Aug 2022 19:51:54 +0100, Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

I look after a property, for an aged relative, which now has smart
meters. The gas consumption is obtainable, on line, (Octopus) by
hour, day, etc. On these summer days when for a couple of weeks the
property is empty, the smart meter data shows the CH pilot light
consumes between 0.4 and 0.41 m^3 in a 24 hr period, or
~ 4.53 kWh ~ 30p a day, (at current capped prices).

--
brightside s9

[Martin Brown]

On 27/08/2022 19:50, Woody wrote:

>
> Like it or not it is also a good reason to keep an Aga* if you have one.
> Hot water, all cooking, and it keeps the house temperate. *Gas

My tame 90 year old has an oil fired aga which kept her nice and warm in
her kitchen during the long power cuts. She is old enough to remember
life before there was electricity in the village so wasn't too bothered.
She is very independently minded and well prepared.

The other elderly neighbour moved to a friends as they really couldn't
cope with the bitter cold once their CH went off.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[MikeS]

Smart meters but an old system. Modern CH boilers do not use a pilot light.

[BrightsideS9]

Err, yes, on mine not since 1992..

--
brightside S9

[Bob Eager]

Our old boiler (installed in 1987) didn't have a pilot light either.

[tony sayer]

In article <te7eqa$tk0$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> scribeth thus
>On 25/08/2022 09:04, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 24/08/2022 20:28, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> On 24/08/2022 20:12, David Woolley wrote:
>>>> On 24/08/2022 19:18, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>>>>> One has care on call over POTS so that could be very interesting
>>>>> indeed.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the social alarm  people had a lot of advance warning, and
>>>> I believe they are generally moving to mobile network based solutions.
>>>
>>> How exactly is that supposed to work in remote rural areas with no
>>> reliable indoor mobile phone coverage? Like my village for example.
>>>
>> It won't work, as we've discussed ad-infinitum. If a particular person
>> is that vulnerable, you may need to review the wisdom of living in such
>> an isolated location
>
>Elderly living alone is enough if you should fall and be immobilised by
>breaking a leg. More common than you might think osteoporosis sneaks up.
>
>They have lived in the village all their life and have all their friends
>and a support network there. Why should *they* be forced to move into
>town because BT CBA to provide a reliable working rural phone service?
>
>It has to be made robust against power failure for those who depend on
>it for their safety. Safety critical systems should not be compromised.
>
>Offcom CBA to regulate the telecoms industry. Not fit for purpose!
>
>There is no way that "improvements" to speed for the few like me should
>be allowed to result in total loss of a critical facility like care on
>call for the elderly residents. Even BT seem to have tacitly accepted
>that and have AFAICT stopped the rollout to elderly no internet users.

>
>It doesn't have to be POTS but it *does* have to work in a powercut!
>Falls are much more likely during a powercut and in the dark.
>

>Some elderly residents still tend their allotments at 90+ years of age
>here so they only need the care on call as an insurance policy for
>living alone in case they should fall whilst alone in their home.
>

Martin over time you've complained a lot re the poor mobile coverage
where you live and it seems to Telcos aren't doing anything about that
so like sometimes self help systems are installed for TV reception where
Arqivva can't be arsed to put in relays is it possible to have a
community phone base system?...


--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

[tony sayer]

In article <te7e37$3k3u8$1...@dont-email.me>, MB <M...@nospam.net> scribeth

thus
>On 25/08/2022 09:04, Mark Carver wrote:
>> It won't work, as we've discussed ad-infinitum. If a particular person
>> is that vulnerable, you may need to review the wisdom of living in such
>> an isolated location
>

>So someone who might have lived in a village (or even the same house)
>all their life with neighbours to support them, should moved to a
>strange area or the dreaded old people's home?


I've told my offspring that if their dad gets a bit beyond the pale then
to get me a skydiving course:-)

[tony sayer]

In article <te7uvq$3lk16$2...@dont-email.me>, David Woolley <da...@ex.djwho
me.demon.invalid> scribeth thus
>On 25/08/2022 14:48, Mark Carver wrote:
>> The local street cabinet plays no part in FTTP, the fibre goes directly
>> back to the head end (which is not necessarily located at your local
>> exchange either)
>
>There are passive splitters and combiners, which only make sense when
>very close to the consumer, although it might be that they on top of the
>pole rather than in the cabinet.

An Openreach tech was installing fibre, FTTP style, to a transmitter
site some years ago seemed very clued up but he did day it was all optic
to the exchange nothing in the way on the way to alter that and it
seemed nothing powered to amplify it around 5 miles from nearest
exchange..

[tony sayer]

In article <ted59q$bm4$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> scribeth thus

Dunno, UK Powernotworks around here have a line of them near the village
of Sawston their 45 deg and one at 40 deg its a bloody wonder no one can
touch the lines from where you could access it from!..

So i suppose come the next wind then they might have to put some new
ones in, but in the meantime the funds stay in the bank!

Customers?, well act of good innit;!..

[Scott]

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 14:24:52 +0100, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>In article <te7uvq$3lk16$2...@dont-email.me>, David Woolley <da...@ex.djwho
>me.demon.invalid> scribeth thus
>>On 25/08/2022 14:48, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> The local street cabinet plays no part in FTTP, the fibre goes directly
>>> back to the head end (which is not necessarily located at your local
>>> exchange either)
>>
>>There are passive splitters and combiners, which only make sense when
>>very close to the consumer, although it might be that they on top of the
>>pole rather than in the cabinet.
>
>An Openreach tech was installing fibre, FTTP style, to a transmitter
>site some years ago seemed very clued up but he did day it was all optic
>to the exchange nothing in the way on the way to alter that and it
>seemed nothing powered to amplify it around 5 miles from nearest
>exchange..

I didn't think fibre optic cable required amplification?

[tony sayer]

In article <jmpd2j...@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark....@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>On 25/08/2022 14:42, MB wrote:
>>
>> The only thing he did not think of of was that when he had a fire at
>> his house, the fire engine could not get through his gate so must have
>> been delayed slightly so increasing the damage from the fire.
>
>Actually with the modern trend of streets full of badly parked cars,
>this is more of an issue in urban, rather than rural areas !
>

Bloody right!, some streets in Cambridge you can hardly get cars down
let alone fire engines or Waitrose delivery vans either!...

[Andy Burns]

tony sayer wrote:

> An Openreach tech was installing fibre, FTTP style, to a transmitter
> site some years ago seemed very clued up but he did day it was all optic
> to the exchange nothing in the way on the way to alter that and it
> seemed nothing powered to amplify it around 5 miles from nearest
> exchange..

But when a business orders point to point fibre circuits, they don't get GPON
like FTTP, it's premise->exchange->premise and a maximum range of about 35km, or
an national offering with multiple exchanges chained in the middle.

[Woody]

On long runs about every 200Km or so. VM have fibre across the bed of
the Irish Sea from the Lancs coast to near Dublin - IMSC 243Km - and
that is not amplified. Mind you it does use a 50W (or was it 100W?) laser!

[David Woolley]

On 29/08/2022 14:37, Scott wrote:

> I didn't think fibre optic cable required amplification?

It does at transatlantic distances, but not at the distances at which
the new exchanges are being placed.

[Mark Carver]

On 29/08/2022 14:40, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <jmpd2j...@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
> <mark....@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>> On 25/08/2022 14:42, MB wrote:
>>> The only thing he did not think of of was that when he had a fire at
>>> his house, the fire engine could not get through his gate so must have
>>> been delayed slightly so increasing the damage from the fire.
>> Actually with the modern trend of streets full of badly parked cars,
>> this is more of an issue in urban, rather than rural areas !
>>
> Bloody right!, some streets in Cambridge you can hardly get cars down
> let alone fire engines or Waitrose delivery vans either!...
>
>

I remember dropping one of our lads off at his friend's student digs in
Bristol. To my horror it was a terraced street, with cars parked nose to
tail on both sides, and virtually my wing mirrors touched those on the
parked cars each side. I wasn't sure quite where it would lead me if I
carried on down there, so before anybody appeared behind me, I reversed
out of the street, and told our lad that was going to have to be close
enough for him!

[T i m]

On 26/08/2022 10:17, Tweed wrote:

<snip>

> In a figure I read in an, I think, ofcom report, 68% of users who relied on
> a landline only had mains powered cordless phones. So all this talk of what
> to do in the event of the fabled power cut comes to nothing for them.
>

But isn't that exactly why we were advised to keep a wired phone online,
for 'emergencies'?

In the same way were were advised to keep a torch or two on hand in case
of a power cut, carry jump leads, a tow rope and foot-pump in our car
and water and some sort of waterproof when out walking?

I do all the above and more and have been able to offer first aid in the
form of plasters and antiseptic wipes to people who have hurt
themselves, carry cable ties to fix fences or gates or fix a broken dog
lead and a keep a phone charger battery, universal charger lead, a small
torch and even some tape and string in my daysack.

I mean when did we stop listening to the news and *not* put our keyless
car keys (?) in a Farady cage *before* we got our very expensive but
left out in the road cars stolen?

I suppose if we can walk blindly into our own global self destruction
whilst ignoring the science I guess we wouldn't bother about looking
after ourselves in any other way? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Scott]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 17:41:58 +0100, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk>
wrote:

Reminds me of when I was at school, the family went to a hotel for a
weekend. We were sitting in the guest lounge when I asked my mum if
she had a screwdriver in her handbag. 'Of course', she replied,
sarcastically, 'I always carry a screwdrive'. The guy in the next
seat said, 'Are you looking for a screwdriver? I have one here',
which he produced from his pocket. .

[T i m]

On 31/08/2022 17:49, Scott wrote:
<snip>

> Reminds me of when I was at school, the family went to a hotel for a
> weekend. We were sitting in the guest lounge when I asked my mum if
> she had a screwdriver in her handbag. 'Of course', she replied,
> sarcastically, 'I always carry a screwdrive'. The guy in the next
> seat said, 'Are you looking for a screwdriver? I have one here',
> which he produced from his pocket. .

Nothing strange about that. ;-)

My 'everyday carry' is a Leatherman Multitool, knife, scissors, file,
bottle / tin opener, X head driver (that seems to fit *everything* large
or small), 3 flat blade drivers, pliers and a rule and I'd say I use it
at least once a day.

Even sitting in a hospital room waiting to be taken down for a procedure
I fully tightened some screws holding a shelf up and straightened some
bent Venetian blinds. ;-)

My 'Leatherman' is a sort of thing in the family in that if I am with
any of them and something needs a screwdriver or knife it's just assumed
that 1) I will have it with me and 2) it will do whatever needs doing. ;-)

I generally do and it generally does. ;-)

But it's all about trying to 'be prepared' (and yes, I was in the Scouts
but not for long as it was so far behind what I was already doing). ;-)

When daughter was due to spend a week in the Lake District with her
partner I gave her a pair of Motorola walkie talkies, knowing how patchy
mobile phone coverage was up there and that such could come in handy if
they got separated up a mountain or somesuch.

It turned out they had car trouble, neither had any mobile phone signal
and she had to walk some distance (it was her car) to a cafe and make
use of their phone to call the Recovery Services and me. Of course it
was raining and she had to walk back and forth between the cafe and car
(till the cafe closed) to keep up to date and to make sure she didn't
miss them at the car. Now, if only she'd had some walkie talkies ...

(To be fair to her she had been helping me clear Mums house out up to
the day she went away so forgot to pack them in her rush to get going).

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 25/08/2022 15:20, David Woolley wrote:
> On 25/08/2022 15:06, Mark Carver wrote:
>> judging by the comments I've seen on my local council planning portal
>> regarding FTTC cabinets
>
> Are you sure those aren't the Virgin Media ones?  They are the ones with
> the trade mark open doors, or are crumpled by a minor graze by vehicle.

Where they aren't obviously crumpled I often at least hook the covers
back in place on the smaller ones but they never seem to want to sit
down properly (sticking out at the bottom) like they have been distorted
or there is something in the way (like the retaining catch)?

I'd like to get a key and practice on the one outside of here (one of
the few that is on properly) and then I might be able to close any
others I pass when out walking the dog. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Mark Carver]

On 01/09/2022 02:20, T i m wrote:
> On 25/08/2022 15:20, David Woolley wrote:
>> On 25/08/2022 15:06, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> judging by the comments I've seen on my local council planning
>>> portal regarding FTTC cabinets
>>
>> Are you sure those aren't the Virgin Media ones?  They are the ones
>> with the trade mark open doors, or are crumpled by a minor graze by
>> vehicle.
>
> Where they aren't obviously crumpled I often at least hook the covers
> back in place on the smaller ones but they never seem to want to sit
> down properly (sticking out at the bottom) like they have been
> distorted or there is something in the way (like the retaining catch)?

Their pathetic boxes tell you all you ever need to know about Virgin
Media, they are actually a disgrace to engineering.   I would never ever
use Virgin for any sort of service provision

[Tweed]

Our VM cabinets are pretty good, but our infrastructure was put in as the
last hurrah by the local cable incumbent before being absorbed into NTL/VM.
The incumbent was good at engineering, but it didn’t save them from going
bust. Brand new VM installations seem to be of a high standard. The new
estate at the back of us (huge) has both VM and OR full fibre, with every
house seeming to get both fibres, all fed from underground plant. There’s
barely a cabinet to be seen. There must be some sort of too good to be true
offers on in respect of TV via these fibres as I’ve only spotted one Sky
dish and not a single DTT aerial. It’s not the area to survive on internal
DTT antennas. This estate is probably a good indicator of the future - all
fibre and no over the air TV.

[V]

The best way to find Your answer is to ask god.



On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 6:59:22 PM UTC+3, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 16:42:21 +0100, Postman Pat
> <a...@the-post-office-not.com> wrote:
>
> >Just got another daft email from BT trying to sell BT Internet etc.
> >
> >It states
> >
> >>Secondly, I'm sure you're aware that shortly we're going to be turning off all PSTN lines in 2025 - the first step of the digital switchover is next year, we'll no longer to be able to re-activate PSTN lines that go down - so if you're not ready yet, we really need to look at this for you to ensure you won't lose your numbers. Have you already migrated to a cloud platform?
> >
> >I am not sure whether this is just an illiterate email, but what
> >happens when the POTS subscriber
> >
> >- has no ADSL
> >- has no idea what ADSL or VOIP is
> >- is on the end of a copper pair which BT fix *for voice* but won't
> >fix *for data* for weeks and weeks (the standard BT practice for non
> >huge customers)
> >- gets regular power cuts *and* has no GSM signal (and probably has no
> >mobile phone)
> >
> >I went to VOIP (from ISDN2 which worked 100% for 20 years) when I got
> >FTTP but would not have done so earlier due to poor *data* service
> >levels on copper. I would advise anyone to *not* go to VOIP unless
> >they have FTTP, and FTTP will take much longer than 2025. At home (N
> >of Brighton) there is no FTTP in most of the villages. And no GSM;)
> >
> >What does this bloke mean by "re-activate PSTN lines that go down"?
> >
> >And what does "cloud" got to do with VOIP? This is BS, surely :)
>
> I think they are expected to piss off, along with anyone wishing to
> interact with central or local government who does not have internet
> access.
>
> I saw an advert by National Savings & Investments saying that the
> preferred method of selling their 'products' was online. It went on
> to say that customers without Internet access could still purchase
> from 'participating' post offices, and a full list of participating
> post offices could be found on the website.