3G switch off

[Tweed]

I have an old Android phone that I recently purchased for a few quid, to
run some software that isn’t available on my iPhone. Today I got a text
from Vodafone warning that they intend to turn off 3G in 2023, and that my
phone can’t handle voice calls on 4G although it can use 4G for data. There
then followed a bit about it still being able to use 2G for voice, but for
better reception it might be an idea to upgrade.

[notya...@gmail.com]

Odd technical problem. Probably Voda trying to upsell.

2G for voice is fine, what do you think we all used before 3G?

VoLTE might be available by update for your Android phone, plus Voda need to enable it on your account (some MNO's were a PITA about this).

Alternatively swap SIM and get the phone unlocked if it is.

[notya...@gmail.com]

aka 4G calling

[Andy Burns]

notya...@gmail.com wrote:

> Tweed wrote:
>
>> There then followed a bit about it still being able to use 2G for voice,
>> but for better reception it might be an idea to upgrade.
>
> Odd technical problem. Probably Voda trying to upsell.
> 2G for voice is fine, what do you think we all used before 3G?

Likely they're going to [continue?] taking spectrum away from 2G to give it to 4G/5G

[notya...@gmail.com]

Yes, but there are many legacy devices on 2G - alarms, cars, non 3G phones etc.

[Andy Burns]

notya...@gmail.com wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Likely they're going to [continue?] taking spectrum away from 2G to give it to 4G/5G
>
> Yes, but there are many legacy devices on 2G - alarms, cars, non 3G phones etc.

Sure, they're not turning 2G off yet* because they know that, but the coverage
will get worse.

According to this article, 12% of connections still used 2G at the start of this
year.

<https://www.cambridgewireless.co.uk/news/cw-journal/why-2g-wants-live-forever>


* Nobody has set specific sunset dates yet, just a vague "by 2033"

[Mark Carver]

On 20/12/2022 11:07, Andy Burns wrote:
> notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Likely they're going to [continue?] taking spectrum away from 2G to
>>> give it to 4G/5G
>>
>> Yes, but there are many legacy devices on 2G - alarms, cars, non 3G
>> phones etc.
>
> Sure, they're not turning 2G off yet* because they know that, but the
> coverage will get worse.
>
> According to this article, 12% of connections still used 2G at the
> start of this year.
>

Wasn't it not so long ago, that 50% of 02's customer (or was it the
platform, so count in GiffGaff etc) base were still using 2G only 'dumb
phones' ?

[Scott]

When you get that H+ symbol, is this a form of 3G? If 3G is turned
off, would my phone (also Vodafone) then try 2G? I thought - maybe
entirely wrongly - that 2G had been turned off in many areas.

Is it true (simplistically) that 5G has the best 'DX' coverage because
it is the lowest frequency?

[Tweed]

The other problem with 2G is that is not available on all frequency bands
that the operator has licensed, whereas 4G is (apart from some very nice
spectrum to be used for 5G only)m and I suspect that not all base stations
will carry 2G, especially the smaller infill ones. So 2G coverage is likely
to be poorer. TLDR: it’s only going to get worse for 4G VOLTE refuseniks.

[Scott]

Does this include so-called smart meters?

[Tweed]

The lowest frequency (ex-TV) bands are being used for both 4G and 5G. See
here

https://pedroc.co.uk/content/uk-commercial-mobile-spectrum

3G gets switched off first. There’s a lot of legacy devices, including
alarms, data loggers etc, that still use 2G. So 2G will hang around for a
bit longer yet. H+ is 3G.

[Andy Burns]

Scott wrote:

> <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> there are many legacy devices on 2G - alarms, cars, non 3G phones etc.
>
> Does this include so-called smart meters?

yes.

[Andy Burns]

Scott wrote:

> Is it true (simplistically) that 5G has the best 'DX' coverage because
> it is the lowest frequency?

It does have some of the lowest frequency spectrum (down to 703MHz) but it also
has some of the highest (up to 3.8GHz)

[Tweed]

Yes and no :)

See https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

If you live in the northern half of the UK the cellular network isn’t used
for smart meters. In the southern half the O2 network is used, mainly 2G.
There are plans to upgrade meters to 4/5G.

[Scott]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 11:39:03 -0000 (UTC), Tweed

<usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 10:46:19 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have an old Android phone that I recently purchased for a few quid, to

>>> run some software that isn?t available on my iPhone. Today I got a text

>>> from Vodafone warning that they intend to turn off 3G in 2023, and that my

>>> phone can?t handle voice calls on 4G although it can use 4G for data. There

>>> then followed a bit about it still being able to use 2G for voice, but for
>>> better reception it might be an idea to upgrade.
>>
>> When you get that H+ symbol, is this a form of 3G? If 3G is turned
>> off, would my phone (also Vodafone) then try 2G? I thought - maybe
>> entirely wrongly - that 2G had been turned off in many areas.
>>
>> Is it true (simplistically) that 5G has the best 'DX' coverage because
>> it is the lowest frequency?
>>
>
>The lowest frequency (ex-TV) bands are being used for both 4G and 5G. See
>here
>
>https://pedroc.co.uk/content/uk-commercial-mobile-spectrum
>
>3G gets switched off first. There’s a lot of legacy devices, including
>alarms, data loggers etc, that still use 2G. So 2G will hang around for a
>bit longer yet. H+ is 3G.

Thanks. How does 2G show on a phone? Indeed, can you tell if it is
operating on 2G or 3G?

[Andy Burns]

Scott wrote:

> How does 2G show on a phone? Indeed, can you tell if it is
> operating on 2G or 3G?

G for GPRS, or E for EDGE, both of which are data services which run on 2G
netwoks (sometimes called 2.5G or 2.75G).

[Tweed]

I’m not sure if a phone indicates how it is carrying an active voice call.
The indicated service on the display tends to be for the data service. At
the end of the day you need a phone that can cope with VoLTE. I’ll not
bother with the phone I mentioned at the start of the thread, as I don’t
intend to use it outside of my WiFi LAN. I only needed a short term
Vodafone subscription to persuade it to look for updates. But it is
interesting that Vodafone are identifying handsets that will be impacted by
the 3G switch off and are sending out warnings.

[Mark Carver]

On 20/12/2022 11:31, Tweed wrote:
> TLDR: it’s only going to get worse for 4G VOLTE refuseniks.

It's impossible (unless you are a mobile network operator) to be 4G
VoLTE refusenik ?

[Andy Burns]

Tweed wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> How does 2G show on a phone? Indeed, can you tell if it is
>>> operating on 2G or 3G?

assuming android, dial *#*#4636#*#* and pick "phone info" from the menu,
look for "voice network type"
be careful not to change any settings.

>> G for GPRS, or E for EDGE, both of which are data services which run on 2G
>> netwoks (sometimes called 2.5G or 2.75G).
>
> I’m not sure if a phone indicates how it is carrying an active voice call.
> The indicated service on the display tends to be for the data service.

Well yes, but if it's not got 3G/4G/5G, and it does have some 2G, it'll display
G or E, so its a reasonable proxy indicator.

2G is more or less unusable for data nowadays (which I know from visits to parts
of Lincolnshire)

[Tweed]

Not if you don’t have VoLTE capable phone. I’m expecting lots of complaints
from the “I’ve got an old phone in my car glove box that I only want to use
for emergencies and only want to pay the operator £1 a year and how dare
they disable my hardly used SIM and why should I buy a new phone and I
think they should give me a new one for nothing” brigade.

[Tweed]

Until recently, and possibly in some places still, parts of the network
couldn’t handle 4G VoLTE voice. So your phone showed 4G but you got dropped
to 3G or 2G to conduct a voice call. That sometimes led to occasional
situation where you could move data because you had 4G coverage but
couldn’t do voice by dint of being out of coverage for 2/3G. For reasons I
don’t fully understand, the networks found VoLTE harder to implement than
they first thought. Handover from a 3G to a 4G cell being particularly
problematic. (Circuit switched to packet switched).

[notya...@gmail.com]

Maybe not, but for O2 and Voda the 2G bands are 900MHz, which generally gives greater range and better coverage into buildings.

EE didn't used to have any 900MHz bands, but did gain some 7/800MHz band, using it for 4G.

3 only ever provided 2G coverage by roaming on other networks, and 2G only phones can't use their network.

[notya...@gmail.com]

IIRC only 1G was ever circuit switched. OTOH you are probably correct that hand off between bands is more difficult than within band.

[Tweed]

The following seems to indicate circuit switching for voice up to and
including 3G

https://commsbrief.com/circuit-switching-vs-packet-switching-in-2g-3g-4g-and-5g/

Circuit And Packet-Switching In 2G And 3G Mobile Networks

The voice calling and SMS (Short Message Service) services in GSM (2G) and
UMTS (3G) networks are based on the circuit-switched technique, whereas the
mobile data (internet) services are based on packet-switching. In
second-generation (2G) mobile networks, packet-switched technology was
introduced in the latter half of the second generation to enable efficient
mobile data (internet) services.

Before that, GSM networks had a circuit-switched data capability (CSD),
which could offer limited mobile internet services to customers over the
cellular network. An enhancement to CSD, High-Speed Circuit Switched Data
(HSCSD), was introduced in GSM before the introduction of GPRS to improve
circuit-switched data speeds.

In 2G GSM networks, packet-switching was added as part of the General
Packet Radio Service (GPRS) enhancement, whereas in cdmaOne (IS-95)
networks, packet-switching was added as part of the IS-95 B enhancement.
GPRS enhancement in GSM networks took place in the early 2000 and led to
the introduction of two new core network nodes, GGSN and SGSN.

These new nodes (Gateway GPRS Support Node) and Serving GPRS Support Node)
were the packet-switched extension in the GSM networks and co-existed
alongside the MSC that continued to provide the circuit-switching
capability for voice calls and SMS. The 3G UMTS (Universal Mobile
Telecommunication System) and 3G CDMA2000 (Code Division Multiple Access –
Year 2000) networks followed the same approach and used both
circuit-switched (CS) and packet-switched (PS) capabilities.

4G LTE And 5G NR Networks Only Use Packet-Switching

4G LTE and 5G NR networks do not have any circuit-switched nodes;
therefore, they are data-only networks. They use packet-switching for
providing voice, text and data services. 4G LTE networks use a technology
called Voice over LTE (VoLTE) that utilises the packet-switched part of the
network to deliver voice calls and SMS.

LTE networks have a 2G/3G circuit-switched fallback (CSFB) that allows them
to place any voice calls on 2G/3G networks if the mobile network or user
devices do not support the VoLTE capability. 5G networks also have an
equivalent technology, Voice over New Radio (VoNR), that follows the same
principle as VoLTE to offer voice and text services over the
packet-switched part of the network.

Whether a mobile network uses VoLTE or VoNR depends on the 5G network
deployment type, i.e. non-standalone or standalone. VoLTE and VoNR
technologies depend on whether a mobile network uses an LTE core network
(EPC) or a 5G core network. I have a dedicated post on standalone and
non-standalone 5G networks that can help you understand how these 5G
deployments differ and work together.

[Ed Batalha]

All mobile phones can make emergency calls even without a SIM card.
They will connect to whatever network is the strongest in the area.
You may need to dial 112.

[Ed Batalha]

Tweed wrote:
But it is
> interesting that Vodafone are identifying handsets that will be impacted by
> the 3G switch off and are sending out warnings.
>

It's either a legal requirement or imposed by OFCOM.

[Tweed]

That’s not correct in the UK. A phone must have a valid sim to make
emergency calls. The phone can attach to any available network to make an
emergency call. The number you dial is irrelevant. It can be 999, 112 and
possibly a range of other numbers. A handset doesn’t actually dial that
number, but issues a special emergency call. It is the handset that
translates between user familiar emergency numbers and the initiation of
the emergency call.

[Chris]

In the case of 3G cut off, I would assume it wouldn't work either if you
only had a 3G capable phone.

[Andy Burns]

Ed Batalha wrote:

> Tweed wrote:
>
>> Not if you don’t have VoLTE capable phone.

My previous phone (Pixel3 from 2018) stopped getting regular updates in
2021,but unexpectedly in 2022 got an update which enabled VoLTE.

>> I’m expecting lots of complaints from the “I’ve got an old phone in
>> my car glove box that I only want to use for emergencies and only
>> want to pay the operator £1 a year and how dare they disable my
>> hardly used SIM and why should I buy a new phone and I think they
>> should give me a new one for nothing” brigade.
>
> All mobile phones can make emergency calls even without a SIM card.
> They will connect to whatever network is the strongest in the area.
> You may need to dial 112.

But I suspect the glovebox brigade will class things that don't involve
999-calls as sufficient emergency to need to make a call to e.g. the AA.

[Tweed]

I don’t think there are any 3G phones that can’t switch to 2G. 2G will be
around for a while yet.

[Woody]

If you had an early 3 phone they were 3G only. As 3 do not have any
reciprocal arrangements any more with other SPs, the phone will simply
stop working if 3G is switched off - with the exception of emergency
calls which would revert to 2G provided your old and valid 3 SIM is
still in place.

[notya...@gmail.com]

Probably true, but there are 3G SIM's that used to, but no longer will: -
Welcome to Three
Roaming to other MNO 2G out of area - switched off.
EU Roaming - very public promise broken
https://www.threemediacentre.co.uk/content/go-roam-after-brexit/
bus https://thedrum-media.imgix.net/thedrum-prod/s3/news/tmp/77017/three-4.jpg
now £2 per day
321 price plan reneged (even for purchased air time)
https://www.three.co.uk/termspdf/PAYG_PriceGuide_310316.pdf -->
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/jun/08/three-mobile-pay-as-you-go-prices-rise-inflation-calls-data-text-messages
35p 15p 10p - ten times the price, devaluing already bought SIM balances by 90%

[Tweed]

Oh I agree, there is little reason to defend Three. Even their owners want
rid of them.

[AnthonyL]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 04:14:20 -0800 (PST), "notya...@gmail.com"
<notya...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, 11 February 2023 at 16:16:04 UTC, Tweed wrote:

>> Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:=20
>> > Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:=20
>> >> Ed Batalha <edba...@yahoo.com> wrote:=20
>> >>> Tweed wrote:=20
>> >>>> Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:=20
>> >>>>> On 20/12/2022 11:31, Tweed wrote:=20
>> >>>>>> TLDR: it=E2=80=99s only going to get worse for 4G VOLTE refuseniks=
>.=20
>> >>>>> It's impossible (unless you are a mobile network operator) to be 4G=
>=20
>> >>>>> VoLTE refusenik ?=20
>> >>>>>=20
>> >>>>>=20
>> >>>>=20
>> >>>> Not if you don=E2=80=99t have VoLTE capable phone. I=E2=80=99m expec=
>ting lots of complaints=20
>> >>>> from the =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve got an old phone in my car glove box =
>that I only want to use=20
>> >>>> for emergencies and only want to pay the operator =C2=A31 a year and=
> how dare=20
>> >>>> they disable my hardly used SIM and why should I buy a new phone and=
> I=20
>> >>>> think they should give me a new one for nothing=E2=80=9D brigade.=20
>> >>>>=20
>> >>>=20
>> >>> All mobile phones can make emergency calls even without a SIM card.=
>=20
>> >>> They will connect to whatever network is the strongest in the area.=
>=20
>> >>> You may need to dial 112.=20
>> >>>=20
>> >>=20
>> >> That=E2=80=99s not correct in the UK. A phone must have a valid sim to=
> make=20
>> >> emergency calls. The phone can attach to any available network to make=
> an=20
>> >> emergency call. The number you dial is irrelevant. It can be 999, 112 =
>and=20
>> >> possibly a range of other numbers. A handset doesn=E2=80=99t actually =
>dial that=20
>> >> number, but issues a special emergency call. It is the handset that=20
>> >> translates between user familiar emergency numbers and the initiation =
>of=20
>> >> the emergency call.=20
>> >=20
>> > In the case of 3G cut off, I would assume it wouldn't work either if yo=
>u=20
>> > only had a 3G capable phone.=20
>> >=20
>> >
>> I don=E2=80=99t think there are any 3G phones that can=E2=80=99t switch t=
>o 2G. 2G will be=20

>> around for a while yet.
>
>Probably true, but there are 3G SIM's that used to, but no longer will: -
>Welcome to Three
>Roaming to other MNO 2G out of area - switched off.

>EU Roaming - very public promise broken=20
> https://www.threemediacentre.co.uk/content/go-roam-after-brexit/
> bus https://thedrum-media.imgix.net/thedrum-prod/s3/news/tmp/77017/=
>three-4.jpg
> now =C2=A32 per day

>321 price plan reneged (even for purchased air time)
> https://www.three.co.uk/termspdf/PAYG_PriceGuide_310316.pdf -->

> https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/jun/08/three-mobile-pay-as-y=
>ou-go-prices-rise-inflation-calls-data-text-messages
> 35p 15p 10p - ten times the price, devaluing already bought SIM bal=
>ances by 90%

Sounds as if our Data Reward Sims are going to become useless :(

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

[Marco Moock]

Am 20.12.2022 um 02:52:47 Uhr schrieb notya...@gmail.com:

> On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:46:22 UTC, Tweed wrote:
> > I have an old Android phone that I recently purchased for a few

> > quid, to run some software that isn’t available on my iPhone. Today

> > I got a text from Vodafone warning that they intend to turn off 3G

> > in 2023, and that my phone can’t handle voice calls on 4G although

> > it can use 4G for data. There then followed a bit about it still
> > being able to use 2G for voice, but for better reception it might
> > be an idea to upgrade.
>

> Odd technical problem. Probably Voda trying to upsell.
>
> 2G for voice is fine, what do you think we all used before 3G?

How long will Vodafone continue 2G service?
Some countries like Switzerland already switched it off.

[Tweed]

2G switch off in the UK is “by 2033” but I guess that means networks can
switch off earlier. There are a lot of embedded machine to machine devices
that are 2G only and will be slow to get replaced.

It looks like O2 will have to maintain 3G until 2033 as they, if I have my
facts straight, are contracted to offer 3G smart meter connectivity until
then.

https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/news-events/2g-sunset-looking-into-the-future-of-connectivity/

I suspect they will move handset users off 3G before that though and reuse
the capacity for 4/5G.

[Chris Green]

Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Marco Moock <mo...@posteo.de> wrote:
> > Am 20.12.2022 um 02:52:47 Uhr schrieb notya...@gmail.com:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:46:22 UTC, Tweed wrote:
> >>> I have an old Android phone that I recently purchased for a few
> >>> quid, to run some software that isn’t available on my iPhone. Today
> >>> I got a text from Vodafone warning that they intend to turn off 3G
> >>> in 2023, and that my phone can’t handle voice calls on 4G although
> >>> it can use 4G for data. There then followed a bit about it still
> >>> being able to use 2G for voice, but for better reception it might
> >>> be an idea to upgrade.
> >>
> >> Odd technical problem. Probably Voda trying to upsell.
> >>
> >> 2G for voice is fine, what do you think we all used before 3G?
> >
> > How long will Vodafone continue 2G service?
> > Some countries like Switzerland already switched it off.
> >
> >
>
> 2G switch off in the UK is “by 2033” but I guess that means networks can
> switch off earlier. There are a lot of embedded machine to machine devices
> that are 2G only and will be slow to get replaced.
>

I thought that many smart meters use the 2G network, but see below.

> It looks like O2 will have to maintain 3G until 2033 as they, if I have my
> facts straight, are contracted to offer 3G smart meter connectivity until
> then.
>
> https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/news-events/2g-sunset-looking-into-the-future-of-connectivity/
>
> I suspect they will move handset users off 3G before that though and reuse
> the capacity for 4/5G.

I thought (as I say above) that smart meters (in the South of the UK)
use 2G not 3G.

... and anyway how can the network be reduced to re-use frequencies,
surely coverage for smart meters needs to be pretty complete.

--
Chris Green
·

[Andy Burns]

Chris Green wrote:

> I thought (as I say above) that smart meters (in the South of the UK)
> use 2G not 3G.

I knew SMETS1 used 2G, hadn't seen anything to suggest SMETS2 used 3G,
but comments from the DCC chap are that they use 3G and moving to 4G,
but it's too early for 5G.

> ... and anyway how can the network be reduced to re-use frequencies,
> surely coverage for smart meters needs to be pretty complete.

smart meters do need the coverage, but not huge bandwidth, so some 3G
spectrum can be re-farmed e.g to 5G while leaving a smaller amount of 3G
bandwidth available for a shrinking user base ...

[BrightsideS9]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 09:42:27 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

SMETS2 in the "north and Scotland" use long range radio. It is all
explained here:- https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

--
brightyside s9

[Woody]

Most sites have more than one channel so it would be possible to leave
one channel on 2G and change the other to 4G. A 2G mobile (or whatever)
would not recognise 4G plus the smart meter could possibly be programmed
(how I know not) to use a 2G frequency with a particular header.
Otherwise all metering would have to be done overnight when the system
is quiet.

[Andy Burns]

BrightsideS9 wrote:

> SMETS2 in the "north and Scotland" use long range radio. It is all
> explained here:- https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

including the alternate frequency required for use near Fylingdales.

[Theo]

Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Most sites have more than one channel so it would be possible to leave
> one channel on 2G and change the other to 4G. A 2G mobile (or whatever)
> would not recognise 4G plus the smart meter could possibly be programmed
> (how I know not) to use a 2G frequency with a particular header.
> Otherwise all metering would have to be done overnight when the system
> is quiet.

I suspect it's enough to advertise the single channel with the minimum
channel bandwidth. Enough to keep things working but not capable of heavy
voice traffic.

Once that's done, I would expect that certain users of 2G can be recognised
when the device tries to register on the network. At that point, phones'
registration can be denied but M2M data connections like for smart metering
allowed. That would reduce the bandwidth requirements of the 2G remnant.

I'd guess that the smart metering equipment or connection can be identified
in some way, but perhaps it's less clear for more ad-hoc M2M connections,
which might just use regular contract/PAYG SIMs which weren't provisioned
specifically on an M2M contract, and might not use an identifiable M2M
modem. I suspect they might stop working sooner.

Theo

[Chris Green]

Yes, but not in the South, and that's where I live! :-)

The link to smartme gives lots of useful information, thank you.

--
Chris Green
·

[Chris Green]

Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris Green wrote:
>

> > ... and anyway how can the network be reduced to re-use frequencies,
> > surely coverage for smart meters needs to be pretty complete.
>
> smart meters do need the coverage, but not huge bandwidth, so some 3G
> spectrum can be re-farmed e.g to 5G while leaving a smaller amount of 3G
> bandwidth available for a shrinking user base ...
>

How can that work? Surely 3G from a particualar tower can only be on
or off can't it?

--
Chris Green
·

[Andy Burns]

Chris Green wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> smart meters do need the coverage, but not huge bandwidth, so some 3G
>> spectrum can be re-farmed e.g to 5G while leaving a smaller amount of 3G
>> bandwidth available for a shrinking user base ...
>
> How can that work? Surely 3G from a particualar tower can only be on
> or off can't it?

No, it can have a narrower slice of spectrum allocated.