4/5G Mobile BB router recommendations

[T i m]

Hi all,

Following on from my previous question re the viability of using mobile
BB over cable / ADSL / Fibre (and thanks to all who contributed, loads
of things learned from that), a parallel question that I don't think
asked so answered was 'can anyone recommend a particular device',
ideally from personal experience please?

I don't think we are talking about a MiFi / portable unit here but more
of a home based type router and possibly supporting the following
features (in no order). This is all still part of the 'if I were to jump
the VM ship, what could I use instead' investigation.

-------
Supporting a reasonable number of simultaneous connected devices, not
that most are likely to be using the BB etc (home automation devices,
printers etc).

The option for external aerials.

The option of having it in a fall-back/forward roll so potentially at
least a couple of RJ45 connections.

If not able to support 5G (maybe staging support for that later as the
network rolls out more) that it can support 4G+ or the best of the 4G
additional modes (where such are likely to be available and effective in
use).

Not silly expensive.

Network unlocked.

At least one VOIP / telephone socket and would support Sipgate (as I
already have two localised Sipgate accounts). (It needn't be Sipgate if
there was a 'better' service out there that was much cheaper etc).

--------------

Now, it seems we are fortunate to be surrounded by cell masts (according
to Network Cell Info app) and I have seen the service switching between
the masts so that would suggest if I did have an external aerial, an
omnidirectional one / ones would be best. Taking that forward, I think
it's accepted that the stronger the signal the better the service and
given long aerial feeders are lossy, might it make sense to put the
aerial and some mast head unit on my R.A. mast (G7ICW) and just taking
the Ethernet over the greater distance?

Or given that I have what looks like reasonable coverage where cell
masts are concerned, just put the router in an upstairs window where I
could put an external aerial on an outside wall if required (say to get
5G better)?

I don't mind spending a reasonable sum on the right thing. Buy right buy
once sort of thing (as much as you can in these rapidly changing times).

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

If you do go for an external antenna you need one with 2, ideally, 4 feeder
cables. This is to exploit MIMO. Decent kit is expensive and you’ve still
got to factor in the cost of the mobile subscription. Do you have a mobile
phone that can act as a hotspot? I’d be tempted to try using that on a
short term basis to see if cellular suits your broadband needs.

[Martin Brown]

On 13/08/2022 10:08, T i m wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Following on from my previous question re the viability of using mobile
> BB over cable / ADSL / Fibre (and thanks to all who contributed, loads
> of things learned from that), a parallel question that I don't think
> asked so answered was 'can anyone recommend a particular device',
> ideally from personal experience please?
>
> I don't think we are talking about a MiFi / portable unit here but more
> of a home based type router and possibly supporting the following
> features (in no order). This is all still part of the 'if I were to jump
> the VM ship, what could I use instead' investigation.

Initially to test out whether or not it will work for you sufficiently
well to be acceptable longer term I think you would be better off
dipping a toe in the water by either tethering a mobile phone or if you
want to try external antennae something like Hauwei's e5577 or was it
e5775. I have lent it out and the numbers are all very confusing. ISTR
there are multiple versions of it with only some having external slots.

They all basically look like a bar of soap but the ones with external
antenna capability have extra sockets on. A brace of suitable yagi
antennas can be had from eBay for under £20 (from China).

>
> -------
> Supporting a reasonable number of simultaneous connected devices, not
> that most are likely to be using the BB etc (home automation devices,
> printers etc).

About 16 is the default for the Mifi pebbles. Not sure for phone
tethering but that is certainly the lowest cost way to try it out.

> The option for external aerials.
>
> The option of having it in a fall-back/forward roll so potentially at
> least a couple of RJ45 connections.
>
> If not able to support 5G (maybe staging support for that later as the
> network rolls out more) that it can support 4G+ or the best of the 4G
> additional modes (where such are likely to be available and effective in
> use).
>
> Not silly expensive.

To meet your specs it is silly expensive and possibly obsolete when they
(as they inevitably will) upgrade 5G onto other bands.

> Network unlocked.
>
> At least one VOIP / telephone socket and would support Sipgate (as I
> already have two localised Sipgate accounts). (It needn't be Sipgate if
> there was a 'better' service out there that was much cheaper etc).
>
> --------------
>
> Now, it seems we are fortunate to be surrounded by cell masts (according
> to Network Cell Info app) and I have seen the service switching between
> the masts so that would suggest if I did have an external aerial, an
> omnidirectional one / ones would be best. Taking that forward, I think
> it's accepted that the stronger the signal the better the service and
> given long aerial feeders are lossy, might it make sense to put the
> aerial and some mast head unit on my R.A. mast (G7ICW) and just taking
> the Ethernet over the greater distance?

Simpler to see if you can get away with just the Mifi an antenna in a
window first. No point in doing additional work unless it is necessary
to get performance. Mine worked fine on a tripod so stayed that way.

In inner cities I have seen a dongle work OK plugged into a modest
portable with no problems at all. My own portable is a bit too fast and
not as well screened so it blinds Mifi SIM dongles unless they are more
than 1m away from it on a USB extender cable.

> Or given that I have what looks like reasonable coverage where cell
> masts are concerned, just put the router in an upstairs window where I
> could put an external aerial on an outside wall if required (say to get
> 5G better)?
>
> I don't mind spending a reasonable sum on the right thing. Buy right buy
> once sort of thing (as much as you can in these rapidly changing times).

I'd find out if you can live with the solution that 4/5G would give you
before investing too much cash and time on exactly the right hardware.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 10:31, Tweed wrote:

<snip>

>> I don't mind spending a reasonable sum on the right thing. Buy right buy
>> once sort of thing (as much as you can in these rapidly changing times).
>>

> If you do go for an external antenna you need one with 2, ideally, 4 feeder
> cables.

Is there a way of using that with most BB routers that only have two
external connections? I understand how one 'unit' could have two aerials
(with different polarity etc) in the same enclosure but not how we could
easily accommodate 4 seperate antenna?

> This is to exploit MIMO. Decent kit is expensive and you’ve still
> got to factor in the cost of the mobile subscription.

Sure but it was more the actual kit I was interested in now.

> Do you have a mobile
> phone that can act as a hotspot?

I do. I have my SGS7 on EE with a reasonable data allowance but I
generally have that on me. I have an old SGS4 with a 2G/m Smarty SIM in
it that I have used as a hotspot but obviously have to limit that to
simple browsing and speed-tests because of the low allowance. The
unlimited Data SIM on Smarty and router is currently under evaluation in
the student house so not available to me ATM for testing. Getting QOS
stats from the students is like herding cats. ;-(

> I’d be tempted to try using that on a
> short term basis to see if cellular suits your broadband needs.
>

I sort of have Tweed but 1) most of the PC's on my network are wired so
I would need some sort of OTG Ethernet interface for the SGS4 as a
hotspot (if available) and 2) an unlimited data SIM so I could really do
what I need to do and 3) really feel that that role would be better
served by a 'real' appliance and so only such would give me the best
real-world experience?

Now, I've got one of those but it's in said student house so no readily
available to me to conduct any tests. Secondly, I appreciate it's only a
'basic' device as it only has one external aerial and was fairly cheap.

So I don't mind buying something known / tested to be 'good' as I can
*easily* use it as an alternative / backup to VM for the whole house
(just swap the output from my 16 port switch or the WAN port of my
router over to the LAN port of the mobile BB router). Plus I'm doing
these tests on behalf of 3 different locations / scenarios and so the
value of these tests is x3. It also means that the chances are at least
one location could be well served by a 'good' appliance solution if I
find one.

The point is there are *loads* of mobile broadband routers out there, I
have watched the reviews of many on the likes of Youtube and have a
leaning towards a few models but even when you find one that ticks all
the right boxes, you then see elsewhere that it's plagued with
reliability issues and lack of interest in any solution by the
manufacturer. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 11:54, Martin Brown wrote:
<snip>

>> I don't think we are talking about a MiFi / portable unit here but
>> more of a home based type router and possibly supporting the following
>> features (in no order). This is all still part of the 'if I were to
>> jump the VM ship, what could I use instead' investigation.
>
> Initially to test out whether or not it will work for you sufficiently
> well to be acceptable longer term I think you would be better off
> dipping a toe in the water by either tethering a mobile phone

I could do that Martin if there was an Ethernet OTG type interface
available for the SGS4 as most of my PC's are wired. This would also
assume that such interfaces also provide NAT and offer the same level of
security of a 'real' router etc? It wouldn't have to offer DHCP and in
fact would be better if it didn't as I could then just put it on my LAN
as a statically assigned device and set the default gateway on the test
PC's accordingly (like this one and the one I use to serve media to my
bedroom TV).

> or if you
> want to try external antennae something like Hauwei's e5577 or was it
> e5775. I have lent it out and the numbers are all very confusing. ISTR
> there are multiple versions of it with only some having external slots.

I think we are often back to lack of wired LAN port aren't we Martin?
Ironically I have a Zoom mobile BB router and a TP-Link one somewhere,
both have the option to offer a wired LAN connection but neither talk to
my ZTE 4G USB dongle. I might be able to buy a 'compatible' dongle but
I'm now getting close to 'real router' money?

>
> They all basically look like a bar of soap but the ones with external
> antenna capability have extra sockets on.

Yeah, I had a T-Mobile one for ages that I would use down Mums caravan
that looked like it might have been based on a mobile phone. It had the
option of non-expiring PAYG credit so was really good as a backup /
temporary MBB connection.

> A brace of suitable yagi
> antennas can be had from eBay for under £20 (from China).

Yeah, I have watched several reviews of such on Youtube and it seemed
that a couple of basic mag-mount 'sticks' gave the best bang-for-buck
than the things that looked more sophisticated.
>>

<snip>

>> If not able to support 5G (maybe staging support for that later as the
>> network rolls out more) that it can support 4G+ or the best of the 4G
>> additional modes (where such are likely to be available and effective
>> in use).
>>
>> Not silly expensive.
>
> To meet your specs it is silly expensive and possibly obsolete when they
> (as they inevitably will) upgrade 5G onto other bands.

That's a good point, not that 5G will be eventually outmoded but that it
may (is likely to) mutate and anything not able to be flexible enough to
look for 5G traffic on what was a 4G frequency could be compromised.
That said, as long as the *hardware* can support the frequencies
concerened the fix may be just firmware?
>

<snip>

>> Now, it seems we are fortunate to be surrounded by cell masts
>> (according to Network Cell Info app) and I have seen the service
>> switching between the masts so that would suggest if I did have an
>> external aerial, an omnidirectional one / ones would be best. Taking
>> that forward, I think it's accepted that the stronger the signal the
>> better the service and given long aerial feeders are lossy, might it
>> make sense to put the aerial and some mast head unit on my R.A. mast
>> (G7ICW) and just taking the Ethernet over the greater distance?
>
> Simpler to see if you can get away with just the Mifi an antenna in a
> window first. No point in doing additional work unless it is necessary
> to get performance. Mine worked fine on a tripod so stayed that way.

Agreed, 'as long' as we can overcome the LAN thing (and it may well be
included on some of these portable units, it wasn't on my T-Mobile one).

It doesn't appear the Huawei E5577-321 has a wired WAN port and again,
is about the same price as the Huawei B311-221 router that is currently
in the student house that does. That also has a Gb LAN port and supports
32 devices etc.

https://modem.co.uk/product/huawei-b311/

And I *know* that works in the 3 locations we are interrested in but not
how well it workls versus some other routers on the market today? The
point being if we are paying £20/m for unlimited data and potentially on
5G, if a basic router costs 60 pounds and a good / better performing
router £100, it wouldn't be long before that 'cost' would be consumed if
we got better (faster, more reliable) performance.

>
> In inner cities I have seen a dongle work OK plugged into a modest
> portable with no problems at all. My own portable is a bit too fast and
> not as well screened so it blinds Mifi SIM dongles unless they are more
> than 1m away from it on a USB extender cable.

I have considered plugging my ZTE 4G dongle into a small laptop, A RPi4B
that I have spare or even a passively cooled Shuttle micro PC (that has
two LAN ports) setup as a router, but I haven't found an 'easy' solution
re doing that via Windows or Linux etc (not with my limited skills etc).
OK, it might not be as energy efficient as an appliance solution but
wouldn't be terrible for a couple of months testing etc.

>
>> Or given that I have what looks like reasonable coverage where cell
>> masts are concerned, just put the router in an upstairs window where I
>> could put an external aerial on an outside wall if required (say to
>> get 5G better)?
>>
>> I don't mind spending a reasonable sum on the right thing. Buy right
>> buy once sort of thing (as much as you can in these rapidly changing
>> times).
>
> I'd find out if you can live with the solution that 4/5G would give you
> before investing too much cash and time on exactly the right hardware.
>

Agreed in principle Martin, it's just that I might have more money than
time / skill in this instance, given I would be testing for the 3 sites.
Also if a good solution allowed me to replace VM then the hardware would
pay for itself in 3 months! ;-)

That's not to say I want to piss my money away and why I was asking here
(and more directly on another post). ;-)

I'd rather sped £150 on something someone here has been using happily
for 6 months (assuming it fitted my needs (rather then likes etc)) than
£100 on a punt.

Cheers, T i m

[Java Jive]

On 13/08/2022 10:08, T i m wrote:
>

> [Big snip as I'm suggesting something slightly different]

From memory without checking back, when I asked a similar question some
4 or 5 years ago in uk.telecom.broadband, I'm pretty sure that it was
Andy Burns, who also contributes here, who suggested a BT Home Hub 5a
reflashed with an OpenWRT build and a USB 4G Dongle. So I tried it, and
it's been a pretty good solution for me, and is still in use.

I don't know if it's still possible to pick these routers up
ready-flashed on eBay, certainly it used to be, otherwise you can do it
yourself, although generally it's not a job for the technically
faint-hearted and particularly a soldering iron is required. I can
repost instructions if requested. Also, configuring it for the dongle
was not straightforward, and varies according to the type of dongle.

The USB dongle has no external aerials, although it has sockets for
them, but is on the end of a USB extension cable allowing it to be
mounted in a window with line-of-sight to the two nearest masts, about 3
and 6 miles away respectively. The particular dongle I'm using at the
moment is a ZTE MF-823 LTE 4G Modem. This one of the type that has its
own subnet, and you control it by logging onto a webpage at the
zero-address of that subnet, 192.168.x.0 where x varies according to the
make and model of dongle. Previously I'd used a Huawei E3372s, but it
started dropping out, and when I went to unplug it to reset it, it was
very hot to touch. Except for the glitches outlined below, which I
suspect are nothing to do with the dongle or the router, the BTHH5a/ZTE
dongle combination has been reliable, certainly far more reliable than
the now thankfully discontinued landline ever was.

However, note that both Huawei and ZTE are on the Western intelligence
services list of suspect Chinese firms, but at the time they seemed
almost the only affordable show in town, hopefully things have moved on
since. I take it you're not going to be in possession of state secrets
anyway.

As previously stated, download speeds vary from around 5Mbps to around
20Mbps depending on time of day and weather - really heavy rain slows
it down noticeably.

Occasionally, for no apparent reason, things slow to a crawl. I find
this can usually be cured by going to the dongle's control webpage,
disconnecting for a minute or so, and then reconnecting again, so I
think it's probably a case of Three throttling heavy usage rather than
something going wrong my end. Even more occasionally, perhaps once or
twice a year, I have actually to reboot the router to bring things back
to normal.

HTHs. Let me know by reply if more detailed advice on this would be useful.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[MikeS]

On 13/08/2022 10:08, T i m wrote:

Having read both your questions and subsequent posts it seems to me you
are over-thinking this by an order of magnitude.

I would:
1. Use one or more mobiles to check both indoors and out for adequate
4/5G signal and acceptable/consistent speeds throughout several days.
2. If OK search for 4/5G WiFi routers and look for reviews (preferably
not just by "users") of the most suitable one(s).
3. If OK buy the best one (plus antenna if outdoor needed) and test it
with the SIM you used in finding your preferred network.
4. If OK keep the router and get it a SIM of its own.
5. Quit current broadband service.

[Woody]

In respect of what you are trying to do Tim, have a look what Solwise
(in Hull) have to offer.

[MikeS]

A few years back I bought a 3G Solwise router and had to return it. I
found it to be unusable in one key location due to its Wifi suffering
interference (fine elsewhere). A cheaper TP Link unit worked perfectly
in the same location (and is still in use for something else after I
flashed it with OpenWRT).

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 15:36, Woody wrote:

<snip>

>> I'd rather sped £150 on something someone here has been using happily
>> for 6 months (assuming it fitted my needs (rather then likes etc))
>> than £100 on a punt.
>>
>
>>
>>
> In respect of what you are trying to do Tim, have a look what Solwise
> (in Hull) have to offer.
>

Once again Woody, thanks for the heads up.

I notice they reference the Teltonika RUT240

https://www.solwise.co.uk/4g-routers-rut240.html

On this video from Poynting

https://youtu.be/iOuy1mpH1vM?t=296

And that with an Xpol antenna on my A.R. mast could be a good be a good
combo. The only issue being I'm not sure how long it will be before 5G
is readily available here and if to consider 5G in any purchase now.
Like, if Xpol do a 4-5G antenna and if I go for an external solution to
go for that then I'm '5G ready' and even if I have to change the router,
I don't have to get back up the mast. ;-)

If 5G is a while away (we could all die in WW3 or melt / drown) then
sticking with 4G might be better (better VFM, better RW service) now?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Is it the same Solwise that have been about for years and if so I
think I've bought (computer related) stuff off them in the past?

[Woody]

The same. They were doing 28K and 56K modems when BT were insisting you
couldn't exceed 9600 on a normal phone line!!

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 13:32, Java Jive wrote:
> On 13/08/2022 10:08, T i m wrote:
>>
>> [Big snip as I'm suggesting something slightly different]

Hey, I'm open to anything, no matter how far outside the box if it
works. ;-)

>
> From memory without checking back, when I asked a similar question some
> 4 or 5 years ago in uk.telecom.broadband, I'm pretty sure that it was
> Andy Burns, who also contributes here,

Andy is a very knowledgable guy and someone I respected very much. Shame
(for me etc) we don't share the same morals on some things (things that
are now very obviously impacting all of us) and partly why I took a
break from uk.diy

> who suggested a BT Home Hub 5a
> reflashed with an OpenWRT build and a USB 4G Dongle.

Ah cool. I have looked at the likes of OpenWRT and other Open Source
type solutions, either to run on a Raspberry Pi or small computer and
was wondering if there was a firmware solution out there somewhere. The
good thing about re-flashing an old router is that you can (could if you
can find one etc) often get them cheap and have a small, quiet, low
energy appliance that you have more control over etc.

> So I tried it, and
> it's been a pretty good solution for me, and is still in use.

Excellent.

>
> I don't know if it's still possible to pick these routers up
> ready-flashed on eBay, certainly it used to be, otherwise you can do it
> yourself, although generally it's not a job for the technically
> faint-hearted and particularly a soldering iron is required.

I have reflashed quite a few things in my time (the last were 10 'smart'
mains plugs for my Home Automation solution) where I had to crack one
open and flash it directly etc. The others I was able to do OTA. ;-)

> I can
> repost instructions if requested.

That would be very kind mate, the email works etc.

> Also, configuring it for the dongle
> was not straightforward, and varies according to the type of dongle.

Understood. That is a position I have been in many times over the years
with such dongles and potential manufacturer support thereof (or not in
most cases). Eg, I just recently bought a ZTE 4G USB dongle that works
automagically on my PC/Laptop but isn't seen by my Zoom mobile BB
router. I could buy a dongle from their 'tested' list but it would be
twice the price and with the price of a router, getting close to the
price of a new router that would just take the SIM and work Out Of The Box.

> The USB dongle has no external aerials, although it has sockets for
> them, but is on the end of a USB extension cable allowing it to be
> mounted in a window with line-of-sight to the two nearest masts, about 3
> and 6 miles away respectively.

Yes, that is one advantage of that solution. You end up with an 'active
aerial' that you can position more favourably etc. At Mums caravan that
mean the WiFi router could be inside the caravan (= Faraday cage <g>)
and the dongle in a plastic bag outside. ;-)

> The particular dongle I'm using at the
> moment is a ZTE MF-823 LTE 4G Modem.

The one in my hand is also ZTE 4G (LTE Cat4) but an MF833U1. And the
frustrating thing is I believe the TP-Link mobile BB router (TL-MR3020
V1) I have somewhere (and are still cheap new) officially supports your
MF823 but not my 833 (doh). Not to say it doesn't actually support the
833 and if only I could find the TP-Link (that's NIB somewhere here) I
could try it. ;-)

> This one of the type that has its
> own subnet, and you control it by logging onto a webpage at the
> zero-address of that subnet, 192.168.x.0 where x varies according to the
> make and model of dongle.

I certainly logged into this ones own web page and you could do some
stuff (like setting the connection properties I think) but not sure what
else. Oh yes, send and recive texts?

> Previously I'd used a Huawei E3372s, but it
> started dropping out, and when I went to unplug it to reset it, it was
> very hot to touch.

Again, I've noticed that same thing with previous MBB dongles. Probably
the radio transmitter?

> Except for the glitches outlined below, which I
> suspect are nothing to do with the dongle or the router, the BTHH5a/ZTE
> dongle combination has been reliable, certainly far more reliable than
> the now thankfully discontinued landline ever was.

Hehe, and another endorsement for MBB over LL. ;-)

>
> However, note that both Huawei and ZTE are on the Western intelligence
> services list of suspect Chinese firms, but at the time they seemed
> almost the only affordable show in town,

And if you did want to do some skulduggery, good value for money would
probably be enough to convince most people to buy-in? ;-(

> hopefully things have moved on
> since.  I take it you're not going to be in possession of state secrets
> anyway.

Erm ... no. ;-) I did sign the Official Secrets Act whilst with BT
(possibly when visiting Martlesham Heath?) but that was a long time ago
now. ;-)

>
> As previously stated, download speeds vary from around 5Mbps to around
> 20Mbps depending on time of day and weather  -  really heavy rain slows
> it down noticeably.

I think I read you need 5-8Mbps D/L to stream HD but on all but one of
our TV's, SD is enough.

>
> Occasionally, for no apparent reason, things slow to a crawl.  I find
> this can usually be cured by going to the dongle's control webpage,
> disconnecting for a minute or so, and then reconnecting again, so I
> think it's probably a case of Three throttling heavy usage rather than
> something going wrong my end.

I think they say they don't throttle (or don't on the current plans) but
like most things I guess there could be some 'reasonable use' threshold
that might be mentioned in the small print. I think One2One tried to
limit the 'Unlimited free' Evenings and Weekend voice deals back in the
day but got their wrists slapped? Didn't those SIMs become quite
valuable for that reason?

> Even more occasionally, perhaps once or
> twice a year, I have actually to reboot the router to bring things back
> to normal.

Well that's not unreasonable considering eh.

>
> HTHs.  Let me know by reply if more detailed advice on this would be
> useful.

It may indeed, especially if I can get said router cheaply, the firmware
still available and the process / configuration reasonably
straightforward. Hmm, I'm pretty sure Mum still has a BT Hub of some
sort and is in the process of moving. ;-)

Thank you very much for all your time and detail.
>
Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 16:31, Woody wrote:
<snip>

>> p.s. Is it the same Solwise that have been about for years and if so I
>> think I've bought (computer related) stuff off them in the past?
>>
> The same.

Cool. Pretty rare these days I would think, especially in Tech field?

> They were doing 28K and 56K modems when BT were insisting you
> couldn't exceed 9600 on a normal phone line!!
>

Funny I was reminiscing with a geeky neighbour the other day how we
might abort a dial-up connection when we didn't hear the right training
tones. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 16:01, MikeS wrote:
<snip>

> A few years back I bought a 3G Solwise router and had to return it. I
> found it to be unusable in one key location due to its Wifi suffering
> interference (fine elsewhere). A cheaper TP Link unit worked perfectly
> in the same location (and is still in use for something else after I
> flashed it with OpenWRT).

I did Google to OpenWRT and even briefly watched a couple of Youtube
'How to' videos re setting a box up (an RPi in this case I think) to be
a 4g wired router but it looked to be a bit to complicated for me
(plently of Linux CLI stuff). If there was a walkthrough that
specifically covered my needs (like I wouldn't want WiFi via that or
even any fallback, just so I could use my 4G dongle and some additional
hardware running say OpenWRT and manually set key PC's to that as their
default gateway) that would be good for parallel testing alongside VM.

Cheers, T i m

[Theo]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

> On 13/08/2022 13:32, Java Jive wrote:
> > I don't know if it's still possible to pick these routers up
> > ready-flashed on eBay, certainly it used to be, otherwise you can do it
> > yourself, although generally it's not a job for the technically
> > faint-hearted and particularly a soldering iron is required.

They are still available:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353043141422

> I have reflashed quite a few things in my time (the last were 10 'smart'
> mains plugs for my Home Automation solution) where I had to crack one
> open and flash it directly etc. The others I was able to do OTA. ;-)
>
> > I can
> > repost instructions if requested.
>
> That would be very kind mate, the email works etc.

There is a popular very extensive PDF set of instructions floating around -
see the bold links under 'Downloads' here:
https://openwrt.org/toh/bt/homehub_v5a

> > Also, configuring it for the dongle
> > was not straightforward, and varies according to the type of dongle.
>
> Understood. That is a position I have been in many times over the years
> with such dongles and potential manufacturer support thereof (or not in
> most cases). Eg, I just recently bought a ZTE 4G USB dongle that works
> automagically on my PC/Laptop but isn't seen by my Zoom mobile BB
> router. I could buy a dongle from their 'tested' list but it would be
> twice the price and with the price of a router, getting close to the
> price of a new router that would just take the SIM and work Out Of The Box.

Many of these dongles are 'awkward' because they're designed for use with
their own Windows software and don't work in the expected way. Many of them
can be made to work with hacks, but it's faff (and in one case I failed: it
was a BT EE dongle sold as part of a 4G backup service for their broadband.
I think it had BT specific firmware or something).

If you buy an unlocked one from the known-good list, the experience will be
much better (probably plug and play, although you'll have to enter the
settings). I haven't used OpenWRT for 4G though, so can't comment on that
side of the configuration.

If you aren't super fussed on speeds and just want to try things out, 3G
dongles are available cheap on ebay. The classic Huawei E160 is fairly
reliable for example.

Theo

[Java Jive]

This is a straight repost of what I wrote before, so it still refers to
the Huawei instead of the ZTE. One thing I should've mentioned in my
first post, but forgot, is that I had to disable IP6 addressing within
the LAN, because many dongles don't seem to support it:

I thought I'd try and summarise in one, albeit long, post how to hack
successfully a BT Home Hub 5a (BTHH5a), put an OpenWRT image on it, get
a Huawei E3372s working with it, and add a public WiFi network.

A) Physical Stage

Requires:
USB to Serial 3.3V TTL cable
Small soldering iron to work at a level of fine detail
Solder
4 different coloured lengths of very thin insulated flex, say
whiTe Transmit
Red Receive
Blue Boot short
Green Ground

Optional:
Veroboard (or equivalent) - 70 x 32mm, 2.54mm pitch
4 x pins for above
Female 4-way SIL connector, 2.54mm pitch to connect to above
4 x 1mm dia x 2-3mm length self-tapping screws
Hand drill with approx 1mm drill bit
Means of safely making a hole around 12mm in diameter
Hacksaw to trim Veroboard
Smooth file, for example a warding file, to clean up edges
Hand lens to check your soldering work.

1) Remove the label from its holder at the middle top of the back,
and put it aside out of harm's way for now.

2) Remove the back of the clam-type casing with a pen-knife blade,
flat-bladed screw-driver, or similar. Noting that at the middle of the
top the join between the two halves is between the two grills - in
other words slightly back from the front rim - starting there, and
pushing the tool far enough in to separate the two halves well before
levering it over to push them apart - don't over force it or you'll
break the plastic clips - work out to each top-corner, then down each
side, finally each bottom corner, then it should just come apart. There
is a video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhE_QpLFvpM

If you aren't planning to mount permanent connections to the PCB, you
can skip the following and go to step 13.

3) Unscrew the two self-tapping screws holding the PCB to the back of
the casing, and remove the PCB. Put it aside out of harm's way for now.

4) Examine the inside of the back at the top, just behind the label
slot on the outside. Note that there are four convenient little
protruding cylinders roughly behind each corner of the label slot. You
are going to cut out a piece of Veroboard the same size as the removable
label and mount it on the inside using these cylinders as mounting
points. Also, you will drill or otherwise make in the middle of the
label slot a hole about 12mm in diameter to allow four pins to be
accessible without having to open up the casing again. Hopefully the
result will look something like this:
https://www.macfh.co.uk/Temp/BTHH5a%20Rear.jpg

5) Begin by getting a hand-drill with around a 1mm bit, or whatever
size will just fit snugly inside each of those four protruding
cylinders, and drill through to the outside. Later, these will each
take a self-tapping screw.

6) Prepare the Veroboard. Preferably, you want the copper strips
going horizontally, that is parallel to the longest edge. With hacksaw
and file, cut out and smooth the edges of a piece to cover these four
mounting points - the removable label makes a convenient template for
the size.

7) Being careful not to allow the new holes you are about to make to
be be pushed off centre by existing holes in the Veroboard, drill four
holes to match the positions of the above cylinders/mounting points.

8) From the coppered side of the Veroboard, insert four standard
Veroboard/Breadboard pins in a vertical line, one in each of four
successive copper-strip rows, so that as a whole they're as near to the
centre point of the four mounting holes as possible.

9) Mark out on the inside of the back casing where the four pins will
be - they should be as near as possible to the middle of the label
slot. Drill - if drilling work stepwise outwards with increasing
drill bit sizes, to avoid breaking the plastic - or otherwise cut a
hole that will be large enough to allow access to the pins when the
Veroboard is mounted inside the casing, preferably with no pin being
closer than about 2mm from the edge of the hole, so about 12mm diameter
should be adequate - a plug such as the following should be able to be
connected to the pins:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-Pin-Dupont-Housing-2-54mm-Pitch-Terminal-Connectors-UK/272536936185

10) Decide on the order for the pins - if you have existing kit
that your USB-Serial cable is sometimes used on, it obviously makes
sense to wire this header the same as that; apart from that, put Boot
next to GND. Feed the ends of the four corresponding coloured insulated
cables from the coppered side of the Veroboard, up to the uncoppered and
back down the next hole to the coppered side, so that the board will act
as a cable grip, and the end of each finally comes out one hole away
from its pin. Strip the ends, twist them, and solder them to the pins.
Gently feed any slack back through the 'cable-grip'.

11) With the self-tapping screws mount the Veroboard with the pins
sticking out through the large hole in the centre of the label holder,
and the cables hanging down inside. If the screws protrude beyond the
surface of the back into the label holder, level them off with a file.

12) Either now, or after the next step, replace and mount the PCB,
being careful to align the sockets with the holes in the casing, and
bringing out the cables around the edge of it for soldering to the back
of the PCB.

13) As per the instructions and annotated photos on this page ...
https://openwrt.org/toh/bt/homehub_v5a
... solder the ends of the cables to their corresponding attachment
points. As the scale of the work is very small, you are advised to
check the results with a hand lens or magnifier, if you have one.

14) Attach your USB-Serial cable (MUST be 3.3v TTL) to the pins or
the ends of the cables and plug it into your PC. Run Putty or other
such serial console program and open a connection window for the
connection via the USB-Serial lead to the HH5a. Connect a LAN port of
the HH5a to a PC, connect the router to the mains, and power it up. If
you see log output in the serial console program, then all should be
good. Power down the router.

15) Switch off the router, and leaving the other three serial
connections intact, with a bent paperclip or similar short Boot to GND
while switching on the router. If the boot log stops at UART, you're
good to go, otherwise you've erred and will have to revisit the steps
above to find your error.

B) Firmware Stage

You need to be running a TFTP server on the PC connected to the HH5a,
and have the chosen first boot image described on the above linked page
within the server's root directory.

16) Taking up the instructions on the OpenWRT BT Home Hub 5a page
linked above, at the 'UART' wait, load one of the specified *.asc files
into Notepad or equivalent, select all of it, copy this selection into
the clipboard, and then paste it into the Serial console window. You
should see a succession of stars as the data is read slowly into memory,
until eventually the code is run and finally a prompt appears.

17) Now follow the linked OpenWRT page to complete upgrading the
firware to OpenWRT. Once done, you should be able to do without the
serial cable and replace the front of the router.

C) Huawei E3372s USB 4G stick

!!!IMPORTANT!!! Note that the Huawei E3372s (serial) and Huawei E3372h
(hilink) models are *differently configured* versions of the *same*
hardware (in other words their firmware differs). The notes below refer
to the 's' (serial) models. Do not try to apply them to the 'h'
(hilink) models.

[2022: The hilink models are like the ZTE model in use now]

18) Using Putty or other equivalent serial console program, log in to
the router's serial console at ...
192.168.1.1
... and run the following command:

opkg update && opkg install chat comgt comgt-ncm kmod-usb-net
kmod-usb-net-cdc-ncm kmod-usb-net-huawei-cdc-ncm kmod-usb-serial
kmod-usb-serial-option kmod-usb-serial-wwan kmod-usb-wdm luci-proto-3g
luci-proto-ncm usb-modeswitch wwan && reboot; exit

The above is meant to be all on one line but will be broken up by most
newsgroup software, so you will likely have to reassemble it. For
clarity the commands given are:
opkg update
opkg install
chat
comgt
comgt-ncm
kmod-usb-net
kmod-usb-net-cdc-ncm
kmod-usb-net-huawei-cdc-ncm
kmod-usb-serial
kmod-usb-serial-option
kmod-usb-serial-wwan
kmod-usb-wdm luci-proto-3g
luci-proto-ncm
usb-modeswitch
wwan
reboot
exit

19) When the router comes back up, in a browser, enter as the address ...
192.168.1.1
... and via the ribbon menu at the top, navigate to Network, Interfaces.

20) Click 'Add new interface' and enter the following settings, any
others not mentioned can be left on their default setting ...

General Setup
Protocol: NCM
Modem device: /dev/cdc/wdm0 or /dev/ttyUSB0
APN: Mobile suppliers' recommendation
PIN: If there's one set on your SIM
Advanced Settings
Bring up on boot: Yes
Use built-in IPv6: Yes
Firewall Settings
Firewall Zone: Add this interface to 'wan'

... then click 'Save & Apply'. If the USB stick was not plugged in at
last boot, plug it in now and choose System, Reboot from the ribbon
menu. In fact you may have to reboot anyway.

Hopefully on reboot the new USB interface should come up working.

If not, here is the relevant section of my /etc/config/network file:

config interface 'WAN_USB'
option proto 'ncm'
option device '/dev/cdc-wdm0'
option pdptype 'IP'
option apn 'goto.virginmobile.uk'
option pincode 'xxxx'
option ipv6 'auto'

... and here is Andy Burns' from the recent long convoluted thread ...

config interface 'LTE'
option ifname 'wwan0'
option proto 'ncm'
option mode 'auto'
option apn '3internet'
option ipv6 'auto'
option delegate '0'
option skipinit '1'
option peerdns '0'
option device '/dev/ttyUSB0'
option pdptype 'IP'
option auto '0'

You may also find the following has some useful information:
https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/wan/wwan/ethernetoverusb_ncm

There are also other methods of using USB dongles linked from the top of
that page - ppp, qmi & mbim, rndis.

D) An extra public WiFi SSID to allow guests to access the internet
without being able to access your LAN. This is described here ...

https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/wifi/guestwifi/guest-wlan-webinterface

... but note that you may have to go round some steps twice to fill-in
cross-references to other sections, once they have been created.

Remaining Problems:

I never got multi-wan failover to work. Seemingly however I
configured it, if both the ADSL and the USB interfaces were enabled
together, I always ended up on the slow speeds of the ADSL interface.

Exactly as was happening with DHCP clients beyond a client-bridge
(now fixed), PCs being booted via a W9x DOS environment for imaging
using Ghost hang at the DHCP stage. Only a problem on the old Dell
Latitude D600 XP laptop, because for some reason or other it can't see
the D: partition to save images to, but now it can't be imaged via the
network either, so now it must be imaged to a large enough USB stick,
which flogs the stick and takes ages.

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 15:15, MikeS wrote:
<snip>

> Having read both your questions and subsequent posts it seems to me you
> are over-thinking this by an order of magnitude.

Quite possibly Mike but remember I'm also doing this for 3 locations and
where 2 are remote to me and with all 3 having different needs or focus. ;-)

>
> I would:
> 1. Use one or more mobiles to check both indoors and out for adequate
> 4/5G signal and acceptable/consistent speeds throughout several days.

None of us have 5G devices atm but I have requested such of the students
(I don't even know what the range of service providers they all use,
other than one being with 3/Smarty).

I suggested (subject to SP duplication and them having a good data plan
etc), running the download tests at say hourly intervals and logging
them on a bit of paper. This would exclude the times they were sleeping,
cooking, eating, shopping, clubbing or 'doing something more
interesting' of course. ;-(

> 2. If OK search for 4/5G WiFi routers and look for reviews (preferably
> not just by "users") of the most suitable one(s).

Check, in hand and assisted by the good / knowledgable folk here.

> 3. If OK buy the best one (plus antenna if outdoor needed) and test it
> with the SIM you used in finding your preferred network.

That is something that is already in hand and a few examples in my
Amazon basket. Again, I might like Voip here, neither of the other two
care for a 'landline'. ;-)

> 4. If OK keep the router and get it a SIM of its own.

Yup. I got a reminder from Amazon today re how long I had left to return
the first router I bought (currently in the Student House) but even if
it doesn't suit the 4 of them at that location, it might suit the two of
my daughter and partner at their location.

> 5. Quit current broadband service.

Indeed, something daughter is willing to do already from the couple of
days she had testing the aforementioned router, something I might be
willing to do if I can get a more logical MBB service here (currently
most of the tests show upload faster than download and / or VM can't
drop their price significantly) and for the Uni students, it's a matter
of going MBB or ordering a ADSL service ASAP as they are only in that
house for another 11.5 months.

And given I am trying to not cost the students a fortune they don't have
or burn my bridges here, I think it does need some level of thinking to
minimise those risks.

So options like 'can I use something I already have' (Rpi / 4G dongle as
a router / gateway) or maybe re-flash an old BT Router or whatabout FTTP
or getting VM to drop their price have come up that could sway at least
my scenario.

Cheers, T i m

[Andy Burns]

Java Jive wrote:

> C)    Huawei E3372s USB 4G stick
>
> !!!IMPORTANT!!! Note that the Huawei E3372s (serial) and Huawei E3372h (hilink)
> models are *differently configured* versions of the *same* hardware (in other
> words their firmware differs).  The notes below refer to the 's' (serial)
> models.  Do not try to apply them to the 'h' (hilink) models.

Like most things, they can also be re-flashed between modes, but despite being
pretty happy to do most "hardware hacks" this one was particularly difficult to
pull-off (software in chinese, sparse instructions) I managed it, because I
wanted the USB dongle to show up as a serial port for PPP usage, rather than a
fake NIC and router which is how PC's see them ... but I'd say think twice about
this one.

[Andy Burns]

T i m wrote:

> Andy is a very knowledgable guy and someone I respected very much.

<blush>

> Shame (for me etc) we don't share the same morals on some things (things that
> are now very obviously impacting all of us) and partly why I took a break
> from uk.diy

Well I won't mention it, if you don't ...

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 17:36, Theo wrote:
<snip>

>> Understood. That is a position I have been in many times over the years
>> with such dongles and potential manufacturer support thereof (or not in
>> most cases). Eg, I just recently bought a ZTE 4G USB dongle that works
>> automagically on my PC/Laptop but isn't seen by my Zoom mobile BB
>> router. I could buy a dongle from their 'tested' list but it would be
>> twice the price and with the price of a router, getting close to the
>> price of a new router that would just take the SIM and work Out Of The Box.
>
> Many of these dongles are 'awkward' because they're designed for use with
> their own Windows software and don't work in the expected way.

Ah, like 'Windows printers'? That might explain how my ATE MF833 was
£32 and something on the 'Should work' list seems to be around 60?

> Many of them
> can be made to work with hacks, but it's faff (and in one case I failed: it
> was a BT EE dongle sold as part of a 4G backup service for their broadband.
> I think it had BT specific firmware or something).

Ok.

>
> If you buy an unlocked one from the known-good list, the experience will be
> much better (probably plug and play, although you'll have to enter the
> settings).

Yeah, I should have gone about it the other way round (from Home
Automation experience), find what works and then see how well it might
fit, rather than the other way round. ;-(

> I haven't used OpenWRT for 4G though, so can't comment on that
> side of the configuration.

Well it seems it's possible to use as I might need so I'll look into
that further. I have a RPi4B 'spare' and a Micro PC (Shuttle) that even
has two LAN ports and WiFi that could be a good OpenWRT test platform?

>
> If you aren't super fussed on speeds and just want to try things out, 3G
> dongles are available cheap on ebay. The classic Huawei E160 is fairly
> reliable for example.

I'd not thought about that Theo and have just uncovered a Huawei E175
(that might be locked to EE as it's branded T-Mobile), A ZTE 120, also
T-Mobile, a Huawei E220 (branded Vodaphone) and an Option Globetrotter
PCMCIA card branded Vodaphone with a Voda SIM still in it. ;-0)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 17:42, Java Jive wrote:
<snip>

> This is a straight repost of what I wrote before, so it still refers to
> the Huawei instead of the ZTE.  One thing I should've mentioned in my
> first post, but forgot, is that I had to disable IP6 addressing within
> the LAN, because many dongles don't seem to support it:

I generally disable IPV6 anyway so ... ;-)

>
> I thought I'd try and summarise in one, albeit long, post how to hack
> successfully a BT Home Hub 5a (BTHH5a), put an OpenWRT image on it, get
> a Huawei E3372s working with it, and add a public WiFi network.

Thanks. Well, that's going to have to be something I do when it's
cooler. ;-)

>
> A)    Physical Stage
>
> Requires:
>     USB to Serial 3.3V TTL cable
>     Small soldering iron to work at a level of fine detail
>     Solder
>     4 different coloured lengths of very thin insulated flex, say
>         whiTe    Transmit
>         Red    Receive
>         Blue    Boot short
>         Green    Ground

Check. I have all that (in various forms) inc a PIC programmer etc.

>
> Optional:
>     Veroboard (or equivalent)  -  70 x 32mm, 2.54mm pitch
>     4 x pins for above
>     Female 4-way SIL connector, 2.54mm pitch to connect to above
>     4 x 1mm dia x 2-3mm length self-tapping screws
>     Hand drill with approx 1mm drill bit
>     Means of safely making a hole around 12mm in diameter
>     Hacksaw to trim Veroboard
>     Smooth file, for example a warding file, to clean up edges
>     Hand lens to check your soldering work.
>
> 1)    Remove the label from its holder at the middle top of the back,
> and put it aside out of harm's way for now.
>
> 2)    Remove the back of the clam-type casing with a pen-knife blade,
> flat-bladed screw-driver, or similar.  Noting that at the middle of the
> top the join between the two halves is between the two grills  -  in
> other words slightly back from the front rim  -  starting there, and
> pushing the tool far enough in to separate the two halves well before
> levering it over to push them apart  -  don't over force it or you'll
> break the plastic clips  -  work out to each top-corner, then down each
> side, finally each bottom corner, then it should just come apart.  There
> is a video here:
>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhE_QpLFvpM
>
> If you aren't planning to mount permanent connections to the PCB, you
> can skip the following and go to step 13.

I think I'd just tuck a flying lead somewhere. ;-)
>

<snip>

>
> 14)    Attach your USB-Serial cable (MUST be 3.3v TTL) to the pins or
> the ends of the cables and plug it into your PC.  Run Putty or other
> such serial console program and open a connection window for the
> connection via the USB-Serial lead to the HH5a.  Connect a LAN port of
> the HH5a to a PC, connect the router to the mains, and power it up.  If
> you see log output in the serial console program, then all should be
> good.  Power down the router.
>
> 15)    Switch off the router, and leaving the other three serial
> connections intact, with a bent paperclip or similar short Boot to GND
> while switching on the router.  If the boot log stops at UART, you're
> good to go, otherwise you've erred and will have to revisit the steps
> above to find your error.
>
> B)    Firmware Stage
>
> You need to be running a TFTP server on the PC connected to the HH5a,
> and have the chosen first boot image described on the above linked page
> within the server's root directory.
>
> 16)    Taking up the instructions on the OpenWRT BT Home Hub 5a page
> linked above, at the 'UART' wait, load one of the specified *.asc files
> into Notepad or equivalent, select all of it, copy this selection into
> the clipboard, and then paste it into the Serial console window.  You
> should see a succession of stars as the data is read slowly into memory,
> until eventually the code is run and finally a prompt appears.

That would be a nice moment. ;-)

That's where I'd be prepared for the equivalent of 'Bad command or
filename ...', even if I'd copied > pasted because *something* on my
system wasn't (or was) on the authors system.

> 19)    When the router comes back up, in a browser, enter as the address
> ...
>     192.168.1.1

Another 'yes' moment (if it works). ;-)

> ... and via the ribbon menu at the top, navigate to Network, Interfaces.
>
> 20)    Click 'Add new interface' and enter the following settings, any
> others not mentioned can be left on their default setting ...

Yeah, I saw some of this when watching a couple of OpenWRT videos.

>
>     General Setup
>         Protocol:        NCM
>         Modem device:        /dev/cdc/wdm0 or /dev/ttyUSB0
>         APN:            Mobile suppliers' recommendation
>         PIN:            If there's one set on your SIM
>     Advanced Settings
>         Bring up on boot:    Yes
>         Use built-in IPv6:    Yes
>     Firewall Settings
>         Firewall Zone:        Add this interface to 'wan'
>
> ... then click 'Save & Apply'.  If the USB stick was not plugged in at
> last boot, plug it in now and choose System, Reboot from the ribbon
> menu.  In fact you may have to reboot anyway.
>
> Hopefully on reboot the new USB interface should come up working.

lsusb and dmesg are CLI incantations I might use if on a Linux system?

>
> If not, here is the relevant section of my /etc/config/network file:
>
>     config interface 'WAN_USB'
>             option proto 'ncm'
>             option device '/dev/cdc-wdm0'
>             option pdptype 'IP'
>             option apn 'goto.virginmobile.uk'
>             option pincode 'xxxx'
>             option ipv6 'auto'
>
> ... and here is Andy Burns' from the recent long convoluted thread ...
>
>     config interface 'LTE'
>             option ifname 'wwan0'
>             option proto 'ncm'
>             option mode 'auto'
>             option apn '3internet'
>             option ipv6 'auto'
>             option delegate '0'
>             option skipinit '1'
>             option peerdns '0'
>             option device '/dev/ttyUSB0'
>             option pdptype 'IP'
>             option auto '0'

Ok.

>
> You may also find the following has some useful information:
> https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/wan/wwan/ethernetoverusb_ncm

(Bookmarked and skimmed). You can sometimes buy these routers pre
flashed with OpenWRT you say. ;-)

>
> There are also other methods of using USB dongles linked from the top of
> that page  -  ppp, qmi & mbim, rndis.
>
> D)    An extra public WiFi SSID to allow guests to access the internet
> without being able to access your LAN.  This is described here ...

I'd leave WiFi off that router as I have it elsewhere anayway.

>
> https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/wifi/guestwifi/guest-wlan-webinterface
>
> ... but note that you may have to go round some steps twice to fill-in
> cross-references to other sections, once they have been created.
>
> Remaining Problems:
>
>      I never got multi-wan failover to work.  Seemingly however I
> configured it, if both the ADSL and the USB interfaces were enabled
> together, I always ended up on the slow speeds of the ADSL interface.

Again, whilst it might be nice ... I would be happy to KISS if the basic
needs were met. eg, Just a 4G gateway.

>
>      Exactly as was happening with DHCP clients beyond a client-bridge
> (now fixed), PCs being booted via a W9x DOS environment for imaging
> using Ghost hang at the DHCP stage.

Brings back memories of 'Ghosting' 120 PC's on a Friday night in the
training centre ready for the courses the next week. ;-)

> Only a problem on the old Dell
> Latitude D600 XP laptop, because for some reason or other it can't see
> the D: partition to save images to, but now it can't be imaged via the
> network either, so now it must be imaged to a large enough USB stick,
> which flogs the stick and takes ages.
>

Understood. D: partition filesystem? NTFS / FAT32?

Thanks for this. I first need to see what the BT router is round Mums
(house now sold) a that might give me something tangible to start
playing with.

Cheers, T i m

[Theo]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

> On 13/08/2022 17:36, Theo wrote:
> <snip>
>
> >> Understood. That is a position I have been in many times over the years
> >> with such dongles and potential manufacturer support thereof (or not in
> >> most cases). Eg, I just recently bought a ZTE 4G USB dongle that works
> >> automagically on my PC/Laptop but isn't seen by my Zoom mobile BB
> >> router. I could buy a dongle from their 'tested' list but it would be
> >> twice the price and with the price of a router, getting close to the
> >> price of a new router that would just take the SIM and work Out Of The Box.
> >
> > Many of these dongles are 'awkward' because they're designed for use with
> > their own Windows software and don't work in the expected way.
>
> Ah, like 'Windows printers'? That might explain how my ATE MF833 was
> £32 and something on the 'Should work' list seems to be around 60?

Sorta. I haven't done anything since 3G days, but there they presented as a
USB CD drive with the driver software on it. When installed the software
gave the stick 'a tickle' and it switched USB devices to turn into a modem.
On Linux you needed extra software called usb_modeswitch to apply the
'tickle' (sending the proprietary USB packet needed). Sometimes the tickle
was just 'ejecting' the 'CD', so you didn't need extra software but the
script needed to know to do it.

I'm not really up to date with 4G stuff, except to note that there are
devices that show up as USB serial modems, and others as USB ethernet (the
Huawei E3372 comes in both versions), and whatever you plug them into has to
speak the right language. And there are probably wierdnesses like the BT
modem that has custom firmware (which is why they're cheap on ebay, because
you can't use them for anything).

> Yeah, I should have gone about it the other way round (from Home
> Automation experience), find what works and then see how well it might
> fit, rather than the other way round. ;-(

That is probably the best way. If that is too expensive, downgrade your
requirements until finding one that is.

> > I haven't used OpenWRT for 4G though, so can't comment on that
> > side of the configuration.
>
> Well it seems it's possible to use as I might need so I'll look into
> that further. I have a RPi4B 'spare' and a Micro PC (Shuttle) that even
> has two LAN ports and WiFi that could be a good OpenWRT test platform?

If you just want to play with it, not reason not to install on whatever
hardware you have lying around. Will obviously be subject to the
limitations of that hardware (power consumption, existence of drivers) but
worth trying before you buy.

> I'd not thought about that Theo and have just uncovered a Huawei E175
> (that might be locked to EE as it's branded T-Mobile), A ZTE 120, also
> T-Mobile, a Huawei E220 (branded Vodaphone) and an Option Globetrotter
> PCMCIA card branded Vodaphone with a Voda SIM still in it. ;-0)

The E220 might be worth a go. It is possibly SIM locked, but supposedly
there are free unlock tools around:
https://modemfiles.blogspot.com/2013/07/unlock-huawei-e220-hsdpa-modem.html
or just put in a Vodafone SIM to test. I think it's max 7.2Mbps HSPA (3G)
so don't expect wonders, but for the price of £0 as a test you can't go too
wrong.

Theo

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 20:57, Theo wrote:
<snip>

>>> Many of these dongles are 'awkward' because they're designed for use with
>>> their own Windows software and don't work in the expected way.
>>
>> Ah, like 'Windows printers'? That might explain how my ATE MF833 was
>> £32 and something on the 'Should work' list seems to be around 60?
>
> Sorta. I haven't done anything since 3G days, but there they presented as a
> USB CD drive with the driver software on it. When installed the software
> gave the stick 'a tickle' and it switched USB devices to turn into a modem.

That sounds pretty much what happened on Windows with this ZTE (not ATA
above) MF833.

> On Linux you needed extra software called usb_modeswitch to apply the
> 'tickle' (sending the proprietary USB packet needed). Sometimes the tickle
> was just 'ejecting' the 'CD', so you didn't need extra software but the
> script needed to know to do it.

Ok, I could try that later.

>
> I'm not really up to date with 4G stuff, except to note that there are
> devices that show up as USB serial modems, and others as USB ethernet (the
> Huawei E3372 comes in both versions), and whatever you plug them into has to
> speak the right language.

Yeah, I get that when using an 'appliance' (like router) where the
drivers might be in firmware and the system doesn't have access to a
repository of more.

> And there are probably wierdnesses like the BT
> modem that has custom firmware (which is why they're cheap on ebay, because
> you can't use them for anything).

Noted.

>
>> Yeah, I should have gone about it the other way round (from Home
>> Automation experience), find what works and then see how well it might
>> fit, rather than the other way round. ;-(
>
> That is probably the best way. If that is too expensive, downgrade your
> requirements until finding one that is.

;-)

>
>>> I haven't used OpenWRT for 4G though, so can't comment on that
>>> side of the configuration.
>>
>> Well it seems it's possible to use as I might need so I'll look into
>> that further. I have a RPi4B 'spare' and a Micro PC (Shuttle) that even
>> has two LAN ports and WiFi that could be a good OpenWRT test platform?
>
> If you just want to play with it, not reason not to install on whatever
> hardware you have lying around. Will obviously be subject to the
> limitations of that hardware (power consumption, existence of drivers) but
> worth trying before you buy.

I saw the various RPi based versions from their site.

>
>> I'd not thought about that Theo and have just uncovered a Huawei E175
>> (that might be locked to EE as it's branded T-Mobile), A ZTE 120, also
>> T-Mobile, a Huawei E220 (branded Vodaphone) and an Option Globetrotter
>> PCMCIA card branded Vodaphone with a Voda SIM still in it. ;-0)
>
> The E220 might be worth a go. It is possibly SIM locked, but supposedly
> there are free unlock tools around:
> https://modemfiles.blogspot.com/2013/07/unlock-huawei-e220-hsdpa-modem.html

Ah, looking at that image indicates that mine isn't an E220 but I was
going from a label I'd printed and stuck on there? Maybe it could be
treated like an E220? It actually says it's a K3565 and looks more like
a traditional slimline dongle than a puck (and it's made by Huawei).

> or just put in a Vodafone SIM to test. I think it's max 7.2Mbps HSPA (3G)
> so don't expect wonders, but for the price of £0 as a test you can't go too
> wrong.

Plugging that dongle into my laptop had it come up as a shared space and
invited me to install Vodafone Mobile Connect Lite that initially came
up with an error because there was no SIM. I took the SIM out of the
PCMCIA adaptor and it now comes up with 'Searching for network'. That
SIM must be *years* old and eventually came up saying the SIM has to be
activated. ;-)

Replacing the Voda SIM with the Smarty one caused the VMCL to say
something along the lines of 'Wrong settings for installed SIM, do you
want to change them' and I clicked yes but it's now saying 'Please
insert correct SIM'. I'll see if I can pick up a Voda SIM when out next.

If I go into the VMCL 'Manage devices' it suggests it's a E160X ;-)

I've tried a couple of generic unlockers from that site but they both
failed (to do anything of use).

Cheers, T i m

[MikeS]

On 13/08/2022 18:08, T i m wrote:
> Snip

> Quite possibly Mike but remember I'm also doing this for 3 locations and
> where 2 are remote to me and with all 3 having different needs or focus.
> ;-)

That makes it even worse: over-thinking while juggling!

With my KISS approach to technology I would sort out home first. After
that use my new knowledge/experience to tackle the others. If possible
with as much of the same kit as possible (KISS again).

Almost certainly a faster route to good solution(s) in the long run.

[MikeS]

Sorting out OpenWRT is VERY complicated. You would be making life even
more difficult (see my other reply just now!)

[T i m]

On 13/08/2022 23:21, MikeS wrote:
> On 13/08/2022 18:08, T i m wrote:
> > Snip
>> Quite possibly Mike but remember I'm also doing this for 3 locations
>> and where 2 are remote to me and with all 3 having different needs or
>> focus. ;-)
>
> That makes it even worse: over-thinking while juggling!

And in the case of the Uni students, blindfold. ;-)

>
> With my KISS approach to technology I would sort out home first.

Agreed.

> After
> that use my new knowledge/experience to tackle the others. If possible
> with as much of the same kit as possible (KISS again).

The only that way that's going to happen is if I get the first router
back from said students and return it to Amazon and we all go for
something 'better', whatever that turns out to be etc.

>
> Almost certainly a faster route to good solution(s) in the long run.

Agreed, certainly from the idea of me offering both the others support etc.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

I have to say I agree from the videos I've watched.

> You would be making life even
> more difficult (see my other reply just now!)

Not so much a problem for me if that's something I'm interested in
playing with for the S&G's but certainly not for the others.

Eg, If I end up with a more manageable and maintainable solution with
some DIY then that could be ok, especially while I still have VM etc.
It's the reason why I generally build my own PC's and servers, built the
kitcar, build boats, RC models, Home Automation solutions, renovate old
machines and motorbikes rather than buying new etc. I get pleasure doing
so, am better placed to maintain and upgrade and even more using them
afterwards. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Martin Brown]

On 13/08/2022 23:21, MikeS wrote:

> On 13/08/2022 18:08, T i m wrote:
> > Snip
>> Quite possibly Mike but remember I'm also doing this for 3 locations
>> and where 2 are remote to me and with all 3 having different needs or
>> focus. ;-)
>
> That makes it even worse: over-thinking while juggling!

+1

> With my KISS approach to technology I would sort out home first. After
> that use my new knowledge/experience to tackle the others. If possible
> with as much of the same kit as possible (KISS again).

Getting it to work and be stable in your home environment where you
control all the variables is the first step. Remote fault reports from
others can be incomplete, misleading or just downright wrong.

> Almost certainly a faster route to good solution(s) in the long run.

In many places phone tethering or a Mifi pebble and suitable data SIM
will probably do the job for most users in regions with decent coverage.
I use both when travelling (use up contract data first then Mifi). Free
hotel has rather decreased my dependence on Mifi these days.

No exotic antenna required unless you really are right out in the sticks
on 1 bar or no signal territory. On less than ideal signal the antenna
will get you higher throughput but again it is a tradeoff of more
complexity and physical bulk. Yagi's have high gain but tetchy pointing.

Omnidirectional "high gain" antennas tend to be much less impressive but
a fair bit better than the internal one (at least for a decent design).
I prefer flat plate phased array directional if space is a consideration
(Solwise did them and so do Amazon mostly for wifi). If getting an
antenna do your homework carefully on what bands/frequencies are used
near you!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Woody]

'Tetchy' aerials? Two issues where a directional aerial is concerned:
1 You have no idea which BTS you are pointing at and whether it is the
one you transceiver is using
2 The system can make you connection switch sites mid-stream to make
resources available on the site you were using

Ergo, get an omni-directional aerial?

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 13 August 2022 at 16:07:09 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
> On 13/08/2022 15:36, Woody wrote:
> <snip>
> >> I'd rather sped £150 on something someone here has been using happily
> >> for 6 months (assuming it fitted my needs (rather then likes etc))
> >> than £100 on a punt.
> >>
> >
> >>
> >>
> > In respect of what you are trying to do Tim, have a look what Solwise
> > (in Hull) have to offer.
> >
> Once again Woody, thanks for the heads up.
>
> I notice they reference the Teltonika RUT240
>
> https://www.solwise.co.uk/4g-routers-rut240.html
>
> On this video from Poynting
>
> https://youtu.be/iOuy1mpH1vM?t=296
>
> And that with an Xpol antenna on my A.R. mast could be a good be a good
> combo. The only issue being I'm not sure how long it will be before 5G
> is readily available here and if to consider 5G in any purchase now.
> Like, if Xpol do a 4-5G antenna and if I go for an external solution to
> go for that then I'm '5G ready' and even if I have to change the router,
> I don't have to get back up the mast. ;-)

Put the aerial up the mast, not the router.

For now 5G is very patchy, won't give you higher data rates, although it will give increased concurrency.

mmWave is not available in the UK and phone that do have it elsehwhere do not have it in the UK.

[notya...@gmail.com]

BT falsely insisted lots of things, in particular that you could NOT have ISDN and ADSL on the same phone line for technical reasons when DT were happily selling it in Germany.

33k4bps was the maximum possible on a 'normal' phone line (V34bis). 57k6bps (down only) was achieved by using ISDN to the customer local exchange and doing the analogue conversion there and obviously involved BT as main provider.

[T i m]

On 14/08/2022 11:15, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>

>> And that with an Xpol antenna on my A.R. mast could be a good be a good
>> combo. The only issue being I'm not sure how long it will be before 5G
>> is readily available here and if to consider 5G in any purchase now.
>> Like, if Xpol do a 4-5G antenna and if I go for an external solution to
>> go for that then I'm '5G ready' and even if I have to change the router,
>> I don't have to get back up the mast. ;-)
>
> Put the aerial up the mast, not the router.

Sure, however, given the whole aerial-gain <> feeder-loss is all about
diminishing returns, it seems pretty common and especially in industrial
situations (where cost is more readily / easily offset against
functionality / reliability) to have 'masthead' gear? I'm not saying
that's what I'll do, but not because I don't think it's likely to give
me the best performing service but because it's likely to be expensive
and impractical (having to get up the pole to reset the router). ;-)

>
> For now 5G is very patchy, won't give you higher data rates, although it will give increased concurrency.

Ok. I'm guessing the 'patchy' thing will improve over time and for me
the question (re kit investment) is 'how soon'?

>
> mmWave is not available in the UK and phone that do have it elsehwhere do not have it in the UK.

Interesting thanks.

Cheers, T i m

[Martin Brown]

On 14/08/2022 09:45, Woody wrote:
> On Sun 14/08/2022 09:40, Martin Brown wrote:

[snip]

>> No exotic antenna required unless you really are right out in the
>> sticks on 1 bar or no signal territory. On less than ideal signal the
>> antenna will get you higher throughput but again it is a tradeoff of
>> more complexity and physical bulk. Yagi's have high gain but tetchy
>> pointing.
>>
>> Omnidirectional "high gain" antennas tend to be much less impressive
>> but a fair bit better than the internal one (at least for a decent
>> design). I prefer flat plate phased array directional if space is a
>> consideration (Solwise did them and so do Amazon mostly for wifi). If
>> getting an antenna do your homework carefully on what
>> bands/frequencies are used near you!
>
> 'Tetchy' aerials? Two issues where a directional aerial is concerned:
> 1 You have no idea which BTS you are pointing at and whether it is the
> one you transceiver is using
> 2 The system can make you connection switch sites mid-stream to make
> resources available on the site you were using
>
> Ergo, get an omni-directional aerial?

The flat panel directional ones offer the most gain whilst still having
a reasonably wide lobe. My ~1m yagis have 15 elements and a reflector.
The pointing needs to be within a few degrees to get any signal at all.

Just one of those will allow me to work base stations out to the time
gating range of the network if there is clear line of sight.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[T i m]

On 14/08/2022 09:40, Martin Brown wrote:
<snip>

> Getting it to work and be stable in your home environment where you
> control all the variables is the first step.

I think we are past the 'getting it to work' phase in all 3 locations
Martin as it worked here, worked at daughters and is currently working
(for some level of working) in the Student House so the issues now are
'are we getting the best potential' ... could we get 5G (at any of the
locations) and would it give us better functionality if we could and
therefore what gear might we be able to obtain that would facilitate
that and / or best use 4G (only possibly) if 5G isn't available (yet).

Part of that is having access to the kit (that's ok, you just need
money) and a better understanding of the bigger picture (and why I asked
here on behalf of all 3 sites). ;-)

> Remote fault reports from
> others can be incomplete, misleading or just downright wrong.

Oh, absolutely, especially given the 'remote' sites aren't as technical
as me <gulp> and aren't carrying the responsibility of trying to
determine what might be a good VFM solution (I'm sure there are more
than one) for each site. ;-)

>
>> Almost certainly a faster route to good solution(s) in the long run.
>
> In many places phone tethering or a Mifi pebble and suitable data SIM
> will probably do the job for most users in regions with decent coverage.
> I use both when travelling (use up contract data first then Mifi). Free
> hotel has rather decreased my dependence on Mifi these days.

Sure, but none of the sites are going to do anything like that but would
be happy to put a home router in the best location and go from there.
(Daughter did a crude site survey when delivering her niece to her
Student House and testing the network speeds with the router in
different windows at different sides of the house).

>
> No exotic antenna required unless you really are right out in the sticks
> on 1 bar or no signal territory.

Or looking to get the maximum performance available at any particular
location? It seems (from watching plenty of Youtube videos / test /
reviews) that even if you can easily see the mast, a good external
aerial, even an omnidirectional one (and assuming it's the same MIMO
spec as the internal etc) will increase the signal level but more
importantly, raise the SNR and so improve the bandwith. This is
particularity important when you have 4 people sharing the same link as
they would all require at least a 'reasonable service'? eg, if they
consider that as being 5Mbps D and 1Mbps U then a link that supports
20Mbps U and 4Mbps D should do (ignoring individual users QOS or
external factors etc).

> On less than ideal signal the antenna
> will get you higher throughput but again it is a tradeoff of more
> complexity and physical bulk. Yagi's have high gain but tetchy pointing.

Understood.

>
> Omnidirectional "high gain" antennas tend to be much less impressive but
> a fair bit better than the internal one (at least for a decent design).

I think you previously mentioned MIMO and I have been doing some
research on that and it's impact on our scenarios. If I understand it
correctly a small but 4x4 MiMO array built into the device *might* yield
better results than a bigger external 2X2 close by? Like the router with
4X4 on the windowsill V the 2X2 higher up on the outside of the same window?

> I prefer flat plate phased array directional if space is a consideration
> (Solwise did them and so do Amazon mostly for wifi). If getting an
> antenna do your homework carefully on what bands/frequencies are used
> near you!

Agreed. According to the 'Network Cell Info' app on my SGS7 on EE my
'Serving' cell is on 'Band 3(DCS)' and if that's nominally 1800Mhz (1710
– 1785 Up /1805 – 1880 Down), that would be one band I would need to
cover on an external aerial. With the phone beside me I have 2 out of 4
bars on LTE, RSRP of -115, RSRQ -14 and RSSNR -8.

There are three 'Neighbour' masts also on Band 3 (DCS), two on Band 7
(IMTE) 2600 Mhz, three on Band 20 (EUDD) 800Mhz and one on Band 32 (L)
1400Mhz. ;-)

On my SGS4 with a 3 (Smarty) SIM, Network Cell Info shows it being
Served by a cell on Band 40 (2300Mhz) and with one neighbour on Band 40.
RSRP -113, RSRQ -11 and RSSNR 48?

The Mrs is on 02 (PAYG) on her SGS8 and can only see a couple of cells
on Band 40 and a couple more on Band 3 that seem to come and go.

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

Do any of the student houses have an existing VM cable connection? In my
experience, having done this a few times, it is the best solution. VM offer
12 month contracts to students.

I think you also mentioned Brighton as one of the locations? In my
experience Brighton has terrible mobile capacity problems, especially when
lots of tourists turn up.

[T i m]

On 14/08/2022 16:07, Tweed wrote:
<snip>

> Do any of the student houses have an existing VM cable connection?

Good question and not one I've asked (so will).

> In my
> experience, having done this a few times, it is the best solution. VM offer
> 12 month contracts to students.

Ok, ta.

>
> I think you also mentioned Brighton as one of the locations?

It's the most 'important' sites for this project yes as they currently
have no BB (other than my 4G router and Smarty unlimited SIM etc).

> In my
> experience Brighton has terrible mobile capacity problems, especially when
> lots of tourists turn up.
>

Good to know, thanks.

*Personally* I would prefer they had some form of wired BB because at
least the actual service provision comes with some level of guarantee,
even if the line speed / throughput doesn't.

The fourth member of the household has now appeared and seems to have
more a more defined set of requirements and better funds so may well
take over (saving us the job for that site). They think they want
'fibre' and seem to think they should be given it so we wish them luck
(especially if they mean 'real fibre TTP, given it's a rented house that
they only have for 12 months). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

A lot of the student housing areas in Brighton are VM cabled. Having had a
son on a 5 year medical degree down there we got through a lot of student
houses. One of the bigger problems is distributing the WiFi through a multi
occupancy house. I found mesh BT whole home wifi disks to be the best
solution. They are relatively easy to install and configure by non
technical users. I’ve got some Linksys Velop mesh units at home, which are
more sophisticated, but I wouldn’t wish their setup on anyone else.

[T i m]

On 14/08/2022 16:54, Tweed wrote:

<snip>

> A lot of the student housing areas in Brighton are VM cabled.

I think it would have been 'better' if she could have moved into some
formal student lodgings but apparently they don't typically have such
down there?

> Having had a
> son on a 5 year medical degree down there we got through a lot of student
> houses.

Ah ha. ;-)

> One of the bigger problems is distributing the WiFi through a multi
> occupancy house.

Yeah, we have already encountered that by having the MBB router on a
first floor window (best cell coverage) and niece on the ground floor so
she's also got a pair of my old TP-Link Powerline adapters to give her
wired and wireless access in her room (that seem to work ok and none of
them are Radio Amateurs so ...). ;-)

> I found mesh BT whole home wifi disks to be the best
> solution.

Yeah, I have been though the whole Mesh picture with her it seems most
of them need wired access for stuff?

Of the MBB routers I am considering (Huawei b535-235 or TP Link Archer
MR600) I believe the TP-Link would be best for the students (and
supports Mesh) and I might go for the Huawei for the VoIP port.

> They are relatively easy to install and configure by non
> technical users. I’ve got some Linksys Velop mesh units at home, which are
> more sophisticated, but I wouldn’t wish their setup on anyone else.
>

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

The BT disks have Ethernet sockets on them for those that really need a
wire into their machines rather than WiFi. (Can’t think why though). We
found a 200/20 VM service worked well for even up to 8 students in one
house. I’d really recommend the VM service over cellular if you have the
choice. Buy 3 BT disks and they can follow her around as she migrates from
house to house over the years.

Which uni down there? Sussex or Brighton? In my experience it’s either
halls up at the Falmer campus or private rented student houses down in
Brighton.

[T i m]

On 14/08/2022 21:37, Tweed wrote:

<snip>

>
> The BT disks have Ethernet sockets on them for those that really need a
> wire into their machines rather than WiFi. (Can’t think why though).

Oh, I would have thought they were for a hard wired connection to your
LAN rather than as a bridge to your client machines. Or maybe they can
do both?

> We
> found a 200/20 VM service worked well for even up to 8 students in one
> house.

Yeah, I can imagine it would be, depending on contention ratio etc.

> I’d really recommend the VM service over cellular if you have the
> choice.

Agreed.

> Buy 3 BT disks and they can follow her around as she migrates from
> house to house over the years.

That's true. Funnily we did have a little glitch when I sent down the
Powerline kit (one wired, one wired+wireless).

I left the instruction to 'just plug them in' but she followed the
instructions and cloned the existing network credentials. Because she
now had the same SSID in both router and remote Powerline, it wasn't
obvious which she was connecting to. Given two AP's don't work like a
Mesh and some AP's were sort of 'private', I felt it was easier to just
keep them separate. Luckily I was able to help her with Teamviewer. ;-)
>
> Which uni down there?

I'm not sure Tweed, one that deals in music?

> Sussex or Brighton?

Pretty sure it's Brighton.

> In my experience it’s either
> halls up at the Falmer campus or private rented student houses down in
> Brighton.
>

Yeah, so the latter makes sense then.

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

I may not have explained the disks properly. One connects to the VM router
via Ethernet cable. The remaining units communicate via WiFi and
rebroadcast via WiFi to clients. Those latter units can also be connected
to the client via Ethernet if need be. Useful if you have a client that
only has a wired connection., eg a set top box.

[T i m]

On 15/08/2022 06:53, Tweed wrote:

<snip>
>>> The BT disks have Ethernet sockets on them for those that really need a
>>> wire into their machines rather than WiFi. (Can’t think why though).
>>
>> Oh, I would have thought they were for a hard wired connection to your
>> LAN rather than as a bridge to your client machines. Or maybe they can
>> do both?

<snip>

> I may not have explained the disks properly. One connects to the VM router
> via Ethernet cable.

Or, if the router is 'Mesh ready', that can be the start of your mesh
network (subject to compatibility etc).

> The remaining units communicate via WiFi and
> rebroadcast via WiFi to clients.

Yup, understood, like WiFi repeaters but making one unified WLAN (Client
<> node switching as with digital cellular telephony)?

> Those latter units can also be connected
> to the client via Ethernet if need be.

Understood (first time <g>), it was just that I wouldn't have assumed
that was a feature. If I saw a RJ45 port on Mesh unit I would assume it
was for the connection TO the LAN for use like the first unit in the
system, as in a wired AP over a WiFi repeater.

> Useful if you have a client that
> only has a wired connection., eg a set top box.
>

Well that's good to confirm though so thanks.

I know 'gamers' often prefer wired to keep the PING / latency down but
that shouldn't be an issue for most or when using a console as a media
player.

OOI, would you know if when using a BT disk / MESH unit to extend an
wired connection if that would support multiple devices, if you were to
use an Ethernet switch?

Cheers, T i m

[Woody]

Latency might become relevant in video conferencing/remote teaching, and
certainly could be if multiple people were try to play music together
(as you do....)?

[Andy Burns]

Woody wrote:

> If I saw a RJ45 port on  Mesh unit I would assume it was for the connection TO
> the LAN for use like the first unit in the system, as in a wired AP over a WiFi
> repeater.

Letting the mesh units use ethernet backhaul means they don't have to use one of
their radios for backhaul, there are some mesh units that have three radios (two
on 2.4GHz and 5GHz for clients and then a third either 5GHz or newer 6GHz for
backhaul).

[T i m]

On 15/08/2022 07:46, Woody wrote:

<snip>

>> I know 'gamers' often prefer wired to keep the PING / latency down but
>> that shouldn't be an issue for most or when using a console as a media
>> player.
>>

<snip>

>
> Latency might become relevant in video conferencing/remote teaching, and
> certainly could be if multiple people were try to play music together
> (as you do....)?
>

True.

Whilst there may be some video conferencing (with us) and there could be
some remote teaching, I think the sort of degree she's on is very 'hands
on' so if it happens I'm not sure it would be often enough to be an
issue (time will tell of course).

I have been playing more with Cellmapper and it's interesting to see the
various call 'footprints'. Do you know if they are actually formally
mapped / predicted or actually reported by 'ordinary people', be it
directly by submitting a reading or automagically via an app?

On that, the Student House in Brighton looks like it's really only
covered (and well within the footprint) by a single 4G cell and 'EU
Digital Dividend (B20 FDD)'.

Any idea if / how we can tell if that cell would support 4G+ (or
whatever the correct term is for the higher bandwidth > increased
download speeds) or do they all?

Cheers, T i m

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 14 August 2022 at 11:39:34 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
> On 14/08/2022 11:15, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> <snip>

SNIP

> >
> > Put the aerial up the mast, not the router.
> Sure, however, given the whole aerial-gain <> feeder-loss is all about
> diminishing returns, it seems pretty common and especially in industrial
> situations (where cost is more readily / easily offset against
> functionality / reliability) to have 'masthead' gear? I'm not saying
> that's what I'll do, but not because I don't think it's likely to give
> me the best performing service but because it's likely to be expensive
> and impractical (having to get up the pole to reset the router). ;-)

Aerials are passive and will often cever multiple bands (e.g. a vertical dipole of VHF FM will conveniently also get a good signal on DAB.

Whilst water can get into the terminations, failure is unlikely.

Not so anything up a mast, including active amplifiers. If you need gain get a directional aerial, which are sold for many different bands (VHF, UHF, Wi-Fi, 3G, 4G etc.)

As an example one I got installed ~2019 has an omnidirectional aerial outside, a fairly short cable run to a Teltonika LTE modem inside and reasonable accessible (step ladder), connected by regular Cat53/6 cable to the PoE router in the main office. Still working apart from a memory leak in the modem that requires it is reset twice a day.

> >
> > For now 5G is very patchy, won't give you higher data rates, although it will give increased concurrency.
> Ok. I'm guessing the 'patchy' thing will improve over time and for me
> the question (re kit investment) is 'how soon'?

As previously discussed 5G without mmWave does little or nothing to increase maximum speed, but does increase concurrency (i.e. more connections). Ergo MNO's will roll out 5G in places where there is very high demand - transport interchanges, universities, sports facilities, city and business centres.

Where the number of active users is lower then LTE will suffice for nearly all purpsoes, so there is little incentive for MNO's to lay on 5G.

So try not to worry about it.

If your signal strong then you could use a 5G USB dongle in a plastic bag on a 5m cable.

Obviously as base station equipment is replaced MNO's are likely to upgrade to 5G capable transceivers.

[T i m]

On 14/08/2022 21:37, Tweed wrote:
<snip>

> We
> found a 200/20 VM service worked well for even up to 8 students in one
> house. I’d really recommend the VM service over cellular if you have the
> choice.

<snip>

Update. It looks like the students have VM cable to the house (the
initial availability surveys were done remotely online and were
discounted if no 12 month contract available etc) and they are in the
process of seeing if they can get the service reinstated and at what
cost etc.

So if I can get the cost of VM down to something sensible then it might
just be daughter who will go mobile BB but I think I'll carry on
experimenting with it myself as it's interesting and could be handy as a
backup or if/when truly mobile etc.

Cheers, T i m

[notya...@gmail.com]

If you get a SIM from BT then you might get £5pm off if you have btinternet, and she will be able to piggy back FoC on any BT router nearby.

[T i m]

On 15/08/2022 17:04, notya...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> If you get a SIM from BT then you might get £5pm off if you have btinternet,

The only person I know with BT Internet is my Mum and she's selling her
house and won't need it where she's going. ;-)

> and she will be able to piggy back FoC on any BT router nearby.

Is that still going? I have used those BT Hotspot things when out and
about (Via Mums account etc) but not for *years*!

I think 'the students' are now looking at VM and I'm pretty sure
daughter is go to dump her ADSL BB (Plusnet but I don't think it's their
problem as such) as they both have reasonable data allowances on their
phones in any case as a backup if their MBB should go down.

A quick test over a couple of days proved to her that MBB was far faster
than their wired BB and that was over a very basic 4G router (on 3 /
Smarty). As she also is with Smarty for her phone she gets a 10%
discount off an unlimited data plan and whener she's ever needed to
access the Internet in the past and her wired BB was too slow, her phone
was always much much faster (so she has some reasonable experience of
MBB over 3 in her location).

I'm waiting for my TopCashback Amazon voucher to come though and I'll
probably get a reasonable 4G+ router to test here and that may end up at
daughters if I can get VM BB down from £44 to something nearer £20/m. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

This may help

https://www.virginmedia.com/broadband/student

and annoy the existing subscriber base!

[David Higton]

In message <tddsd3$3mrg9$1...@dont-email.me>

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

> On 15/08/2022 17:04, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > and she will be able to piggy back FoC on any BT router nearby.
>
> Is that still going?

Yes.

David

[T i m]

On 15/08/2022 18:07, Tweed wrote:
<snip>
>> Update. It looks like the students have VM cable to the house (the
>> initial availability surveys were done remotely online and were
>> discounted if no 12 month contract available etc) and they are in the
>> process of seeing if they can get the service reinstated and at what
>> cost etc.
>>

<snip>

> This may help
>
> https://www.virginmedia.com/broadband/student

Cheers.

>
> and annoy the existing subscriber base!

Quite! ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Cheers, ;-)

If I remember rightly to play on other peoples broadband you had to
share yours and I wasn't sure if that still applied if you swapped out
their router for a generic one (which we inevitably did when it failed)?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 15/08/2022 13:31, notya...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

>>> Put the aerial up the mast, not the router.
>> Sure, however, given the whole aerial-gain <> feeder-loss is all about
>> diminishing returns, it seems pretty common and especially in industrial
>> situations (where cost is more readily / easily offset against
>> functionality / reliability) to have 'masthead' gear? I'm not saying
>> that's what I'll do, but not because I don't think it's likely to give
>> me the best performing service but because it's likely to be expensive
>> and impractical (having to get up the pole to reset the router). ;-)
>
> Aerials are passive and will often cever multiple bands (e.g. a vertical dipole of VHF FM will conveniently also get a good signal on DAB.

Sure. The RA aerial on top of my pole covers 70cm, 2M and 4m (<I think,
only ever used it on 70cm/2m for Packet radio).

>
> Whilst water can get into the terminations, failure is unlikely.

Understood.

>
> Not so anything up a mast, including active amplifiers.

Mast-head-amplifiers not uncommon on TV's though with phantom power from
the TV end? Or LNB's on Sat systems?

> If you need gain get a directional aerial, which are sold for many different bands (VHF, UHF, Wi-Fi, 3G, 4G etc.)

Understood. I have a pair of little Yagi's (5 director) I used to get
WiFi across the road to an elderly neighbour till she could get her own
BB installed. It was rock solid until a very tall removal lorry parked
between us. ;-)

>
> As an example one I got installed ~2019 has an omnidirectional aerial outside, a fairly short cable run to a Teltonika LTE modem inside and reasonable accessible (step ladder), connected by regular Cat53/6 cable to the PoE router in the main office.

I ran the feeder for my AR aerial in RG8(?) with a short RG58 tail into
the back of my Icom EX PMR rig re-tuned to 70cms.

> Still working apart from a memory leak in the modem that requires it is reset twice a day.

That's frustrating that sort of thing isn't it? I'm guessing no firmware
upgrade to fix that? I suffer with my Fritz!Box not releasing DHCP
leases requiring them to clear them manually every so often (typically
after I've been playing with network clients). ;-(

>
>>>
>>> For now 5G is very patchy, won't give you higher data rates, although it will give increased concurrency.
>> Ok. I'm guessing the 'patchy' thing will improve over time and for me
>> the question (re kit investment) is 'how soon'?
>
> As previously discussed 5G without mmWave does little or nothing to increase maximum speed,

I've been catching up with mmWave, interesting stuff, as long as you
don't expect your phone to still ring in your pocket. ;-)

> but does increase concurrency (i.e. more connections). Ergo MNO's will roll out 5G in places where there is very high demand - transport interchanges, universities, sports facilities, city and business centres.

Understood, sort of a merging of mobile data and WiFi.

>
> Where the number of active users is lower then LTE will suffice for nearly all purpsoes, so there is little incentive for MNO's to lay on 5G.

Noted. So what standards are they using or should we typically expect to
find on 4G cells these days do you know please? Eg, 4G, 4G+, 4G LTE, 4G
Advanced? Are any of those just referring to the utilisation of MIMO (or
Massive MIMO is it)?

>
> So try not to worry about it.

It's a pretty big subject and I'd like to try to understand it a bit
more from a practical POV.

>
> If your signal strong then you could use a 5G USB dongle in a plastic bag on a 5m cable.

Id like to try that with my 4G one but need something to share it on /
with that I can configure as a default gateway to some test machines and
see how we get on. I've tried (briefly) setting up ICS on a W10 laptop
(Ethernet to > USB 4G dongle but couldn't see how to make use of it at
the client machine? I set the IP on the laptop then set that as the DG
on the client but nothing. Same with the SIM in a phone and USB
tethered. The laptop itself worked over the tethered phone so that bit
was ok.

> Obviously as base station equipment is replaced MNO's are likely to upgrade to 5G capable transceivers.

I guess if they phase out say the likes of 3G they could put 5G on those
bands and as long as the mechanical stuff is already in place in the
router (aerials etc) then I assume they could cope with any encoding in
firmware?

I have been playing with Cellmapper a bit more and am understanding it
better. eg, The main coverage for us seems to be on B3 for 3 here. It's
also where I thought it was and that's on top of the shopping centre
about 500m away. I was hoping to try something with 4X4 MIMO internally
on the West end of the first floor South facing windowsill as that could
be line_of_site to the mast (to the ESE).

I could then see what sort of service / speeds I get and then try maybe
a flat panel from there?

Cheers, T i m

[MikeS]

It doesn't.
You cannot qualify (by sharing your BT broadband via WiFi) with a
generic router.

[T i m]

On 16/08/2022 06:44, MikeS wrote:

<snip>

>> If I remember rightly to play on other peoples broadband you had to
>> share yours and I wasn't sure if that still applied if you swapped out
>> their router for a generic one (which we inevitably did when it failed)?
>>

> It doesn't.

Thought not.

> You cannot qualify (by sharing your BT broadband via WiFi) with a
> generic router.

I wasn't sure if the ability to share other peoples WiFi was still
possible once you had qualified Mike?

So Mum gets her BT Router and she would like to be able to have the
chance to use her iPad when out and about so I set it up for her.

When out and about we can see and use 'BT_Fon' (wasn't it something like
that?) hotspots. Then we change Mums router for a generic one, do we
know if we can still carry on using other peoples hotspots (probably
against the T&C's etc) because the feature is still enabled against her
account?

I ask because I think that may have happened (but as mentioned
elsewhere, haven't needed to use such for years because of phone data or
my own mobile hotspot (MiFi type devices) etc.

Cheers, T i m

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 15 August 2022 at 17:31:33 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
> On 15/08/2022 17:04, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > If you get a SIM from BT then you might get £5pm off if you have btinternet,
> The only person I know with BT Internet is my Mum and she's selling her
> house and won't need it where she's going. ;-)

Must be one of these places where VM or it antecedents cabled up first or where there are a lot of suckers for $ky.

> > and she will be able to piggy back FoC on any BT router nearby.
> Is that still going? I have used those BT Hotspot things when out and
> about (Via Mums account etc) but not for *years*!

Yes it is there are three flavours: -

1. BT public Wi-Fi hot spots fairly common in city / district centres and BT are modifying all their old phone boxes to act as one.
2. Wi-Fi piggy backed on customer routers. Millions of these. Customer use will take priority and BT used to throttle it (I don't think they do now).
3. BT Guest access on business customer's routers. The user can switch this on for their customers. Anyone can connect and use it for free - no password.

"BT Broadband and BT Mobile customers get free, unlimited access to the BT Wi-Fi network".

SNIP

>
> Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 16/08/2022 12:23, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 15 August 2022 at 17:31:33 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
>> On 15/08/2022 17:04, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> If you get a SIM from BT then you might get £5pm off if you have btinternet,
>> The only person I know with BT Internet is my Mum and she's selling her
>> house and won't need it where she's going. ;-)
>
> Must be one of these places where VM or it antecedents cabled up first or where there are a lot of suckers for $ky.

For the benefit of clarity I wasn't suggesting any particular take up of
ADSL over cable around here etc but simply that I *personally* don't
know anyone other than my Mum who was with BT directly (retail) for
their Internet.

My next door neighbour is deffo with VM and judging by the range od
SSID's I see, many are with Sky / TalkTalk etc (probably the unbundled
suppliers)?

>
>>> and she will be able to piggy back FoC on any BT router nearby.
>> Is that still going? I have used those BT Hotspot things when out and
>> about (Via Mums account etc) but not for *years*!
>
> Yes it is there are three flavours: -
>
> 1. BT public Wi-Fi hot spots fairly common in city / district centres and BT are modifying all their old phone boxes to act as one.

Oooerr! ;-)

> 2. Wi-Fi piggy backed on customer routers. Millions of these. Customer use will take priority and BT used to throttle it (I don't think they do now).

OK.

> 3. BT Guest access on business customer's routers. The user can switch this on for their customers. Anyone can connect and use it for free - no password.

Yeah, I think I used to see two BT shared SSID's so could that explain
it (business / domestic customers)?

>
> "BT Broadband and BT Mobile customers get free, unlimited access to the BT Wi-Fi network".

Good system I guess, especially if you are often out and about and can
find a hotspot that actually works. I think I did maybe a couple of
times when say waiting near a hospital to collect a family member etc.

Cheers, T i m

[Woody]

The only catch is that the free and open access points arenot encrypted
so anyone can theoretically listen in to your business.

[BrightsideS9]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 16:37:34 +0100, Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

Puta VPN app on mobile.

See https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/vpn-public-wifi/

I use Surfshark, it is / has been trouble free on my Android phone.

--
brightside S9

[T i m]

On 16/08/2022 16:37, Woody wrote:
<snip>
>>

>> Good system I guess, especially if you are often out and about and can
>> find a hotspot that actually works. I think I did maybe a couple of
>> times when say waiting near a hospital to collect a family member etc.
>>
>>
>
> The only catch is that the free and open access points arenot encrypted
> so anyone can theoretically listen in to your business.
>

Whilst I don't suppose many would be interested in my Youtube viewing
habits (including the marketing Co's), they might have been more
interested if I'd accessed my email or bank (I didn't the few times I
tried it).

After much deliberation I have a TP-Link Archer MR600 Cat6 router on
it's way from Amazon today as I had some vouchers (TopCashback / Smarty
signup) to use up and keen to get on with some speed / reliability tests.

I'm hoping to initially put it on the LAN as just an alternative gateway
(DHCP turned off etc) so that I can manually select it as the DG on some
specific devices.

I might test it over WiFi on our NowTV stick as that will be a good for
worst case throughput (buffering) and dropout on Netflix and this PC for
general browsing / email / NGs etc.

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

Anyone can listen to your business downstream of the VPN endpoint. HTTPS
etc are your friend.

[MikeS]

On 16/08/2022 16:37, Woody wrote:

I'm not sure free/open access WiFi is much worse than a secure WiFi
connection for internet traffic which is most (all?) of the usage for
hotspots etc.

These days virtually all web sites use https and all my email accounts
connect to their servers with SSL/TLS. Your emails are always readable
on the mail server unless they use end-to-end encryption.

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 16 August 2022 at 13:40:57 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
> On 16/08/2022 12:23, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, 15 August 2022 at 17:31:33 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
> >> On 15/08/2022 17:04, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>

> >>> and she will be able to piggy back FoC on any BT router nearby.
> >> Is that still going? I have used those BT Hotspot things when out and
> >> about (Via Mums account etc) but not for *years*!
> >
> > Yes it is there are three flavours: -
> >
> > 1. BT public Wi-Fi hot spots fairly common in city / district centres and BT are modifying all their old phone boxes to act as one.
> Oooerr! ;-)

Usually pretty fast.

> > 2. Wi-Fi piggy backed on customer routers. Millions of these. Customer use will take priority and BT used to throttle it (I don't think they do now).
> OK.
> > 3. BT Guest access on business customer's routers. The user can switch this on for their customers. Anyone can connect and use it for free - no password.
> Yeah, I think I used to see two BT shared SSID's so could that explain
> it (business / domestic customers)?

IIRC they are all called BT_Guest or similar.

> >
> > "BT Broadband and BT Mobile customers get free, unlimited access to the BT Wi-Fi network".
> Good system I guess, especially if you are often out and about and can
> find a hotspot that actually works. I think I did maybe a couple of
> times when say waiting near a hospital to collect a family member etc.

I get O2 ones as well as my mobile contract stayed with them [now Telephonica] when BT floated their original mobile business off.*

>
> Cheers, T i m

* Bigger commercial mistake than than Decca turning down the Beatles.

[Woody]

Actually, O2 is now a 50-50 operation with Liberty Global (the owners of
Virginmedia) and Telephonica. Telephonica however still do own outright
and operate the GiffGaff MVNO which has consistently been voted the top
PAYG provider in the UK (they even got mentioned in an episode of NCIS!!)

[T i m]

On 14/08/2022 09:40, Martin Brown wrote:
<snip>

> Getting it to work and be stable in your home environment where you
> control all the variables is the first step.

<snip>

I currently have the TP-Link Archer MR600 4G router on an upstairs
windowsill that is potentially within the footprints of a couple of masts.

The nearest one (500m and that I can see with my old eyes from the
doorstep) supports B1,3,20 but we are only under the footprint of B1 and
B20 on that one.

The other mast that is further away (~800m) only supports B1 and B3 so
that may be where we are getting our 4G from?

I'm currently seeing:

Signal Strength: 75%
RSRP: -85dBm
RSRQ: -13dB
SNR: 8.6dB

According to Cellmapper the Maximum Signal (RSRP) on that band on
cell/band is -68 dBm


Turning the router through 90 degrees and folding the rabbit ears
inwards to near 45 degrees from vertical takes the SNR down to 6.6dB,
RSRQ: -15dB, RSRP: -86dBm

I've put it on my LAN as an additional gateway so I can test it with any
LAN connected device and I'm using it to work this NG.

Speed tests are quite varied but very often the upload speeds exceed the
download. Currently Ping 19ms, D = 27.99, U = 27.31

For comparison, VM is currently Ping = 17ms, D = 37.59, U = 1.42

<snip>

> No exotic antenna required unless you really are right out in the sticks
> on 1 bar or no signal territory.

2 out of 3 bars / 75% here.

> On less than ideal signal the antenna
> will get you higher throughput but again it is a tradeoff of more
> complexity and physical bulk. Yagi's have high gain but tetchy pointing.

Given the LOS to the nearest cell it should be fairly easy to fit and
aim (I can look down it like an open sighted rifle <g>) a directional
aerial close to the front of the house.
>
> Omnidirectional "high gain" antennas tend to be much less impressive but
> a fair bit better than the internal one (at least for a decent design).

Understood.

> I prefer flat plate phased array directional if space is a consideration
> (Solwise did them and so do Amazon mostly for wifi).

I think a directional that covers B1,3 and 20 might be cheap and easy to
fit (even if only temporarily by hanging it out of the window) but to
enjoy MIMO, wouldn't I need two at 90 Degrees rotational separation?

> If getting an
> antenna do your homework carefully on what bands/frequencies are used
> near you!
>
Understood.

Whilst I don't mind playing with such things a bit (like our modest TV
antenna is in the loft and seems to be working fine before / after
digital switchover), I guess the bottom line is 'can it do all I need'
(as is). I've not tried streaming a HD vid off Netflix yet as we were in
late last night and if I'm downloading (Torrenting) say a 1.2GB Linux
image I'm rarely in a rush for it.

My SGS4 has got external aerial sockets so I was wondering if I could
attach a wideband directional and go cell deveining? ;-)

Cheers, T i m