Real world mobile BB over cabled?

[T i m]

I've been with VM since it took over NTL and with them from when they
took over Cable-Tel and apart from the once where I got BB free for a
year, the price keeps climbing to a point where I really should look for
alternatives. Whilst there I may (then) also dump the BT line that I'm
paying for but rarely using and am not sure would be good enough to
support and ADSL BB service in any case (line noise for years).

I recently picked up a Smarty Data only SIM (unlimited, £18/m rolling)
and an unlocked HUAWEI B311 router that worked ok for the couple of days
I had it here. Watched a film on Netflix via a NowTV HD stick with no
buffering but one complete dropout. Strangely though I was often getting
upload speeds double of that of download (though the router or a 4G USB
dongle)?

Daughter then borrowed the Router for a couple of days and is likely go
that way herself (she's already with Smarty for her phone) as her
Plusnet / ADSL service has never been very good.

The router is now under test in a student house in Brighton and subject
to it being a viable solution for them, them either sticking with that
router and getting their own SIM with Smarty or going with someone /
thing else.

So the questions are, can mobile BB actually be a real world replacement
for a cable (over fibre optic maybe), given a fighting chance (distance
to local mast etc) and if so, would it be worth going for something 5G
ready now (when I don't think the 5G service is available indoors at any
of the locations mentioned yet) or would 4G(+) likely to be the best vfm
(even on an unlimited 5G SIM) right now and then maybe upgrade later?

I might be tempted to go for the Three 5G mobile router monthly /
unlimited deal as it's still way cheaper than what I'm paying for phone
/ BB now plus you get the use of £200+ worth of router. If that works I
might then buy one and go Smarty?

I appreciate much of this is 'YMMV' but if people have successfully
switched to mobile BB then at least I know there aren't any 'gotchas',
like it's ok for streaming films but not for video conferencing because
of high latency etc or that uptime might not be as good as a bounded
solution?

Cheers, T i m

[Mark Carver]

A big factor can be the mobile router, and how much carrier aggregation
it can deal with.

I bought a cheap Solwise 4G router about 5 years ago, it worked, but I
could never get download speeds any better than about 5-10 Mb/s. Using
the same SIM in my phone I could get ten times that speed. That's
because often the fast data connections are on bands that only phones,
or top end routers can support. My Solwise is nothing more than a 20
quid 'stick' stuck in a tin box. The routers supplied by the networks
are often very low spec.

[Abandoned_Trolley]

On 08/08/2022 12:39, T i m wrote:

Just because your SIM works in a router for a few days, dont assume that
its going to be a workable long term solution.

In some cases, unlimited data tariffs are not intended for heavy use and
since the operators appear to be able to detect when you are "tethering"
then its safe to assume that they will know when the SIM is stuffed in
to somehting which is not a phone.

I believe that giffgaff have arrangements to throttle download speeds
for tethered terminals at certain times of the day and I guess others
will be doing the same. You may well find that limits are applied as
soon as you go "unlimited".

You might need to migrate to some sort of business tariff to get what
you "really really" want - and in the meantime, comparing apples with
pears maybe therapeutic but it doesnt help.





--
random signature text inserted here

[Woody]

This may sound a silly question, but has the OP tried rattling VM's cage
to get a better deal out of them? Talking to Retentions can often get
staggering discounts - been there, done that etc etc. I too have been on
VM for a long time - heavens I was a beta tester on NtlWorld! Retentions
direct line is 0800 952 2277 and it is often better to call them close
to the end of the month or just into the new one. Do your homework, make
sure you know what you options areand what you will accept, and what
other ISPs in your area can offer as well. Also do you need high speed?
I don't and just got $8/m discount for going down from 100Mb to 50Mb -
in the safe and certain knowledge that they will upgrade me f.o.c to
100Mb in a few months time - they've done it at least twice before! It
is also a good idea to back out of anything they offer, say no, and tell
them you are giving the statutory 30 days notice. They will call you a
week later with an offer you can't refuse.

Also have a look to see if Cityfibre have anything in your area. They
are outside my house so available and carry TalkTalk, Sky, VF and Zen. I
am at the moment paying £36/m for 50Mb BB and phone (which we never use
as we have a BT line.) I can have FTTP from Zen over Cityfibre running
145Mb for £29.95/m or 300Mb for £32.99/m. Phone costs an additional £7/m.

The one thing that many people overlook when thinking of leaving VM is
the reliability of their service. In 22 years we have had four outages,
the longest of three days when a drunk piled his car into the streetcab
at the top of our road! Can mi-fi beat that?

[T i m]

On 08/08/2022 16:20, Woody wrote:

<snip>

> This may sound a silly question, but has the OP tried rattling VM's cage
> to get a better deal out of them?

Hi Woody. ;-)

> Talking to Retentions can often get
> staggering discounts - been there, done that etc etc.

No, I haven't tried this time round but have in the past and generally
do with the likes of the AA etc. That was how I got it free for a year
because after fcuking up giving me 'the next couples of months free' for
3 months in a row (to retain my custom), they just credited my account
with a years work of payments. ;-)

What I am in the process of doing is migrating any emails still left on
NTL over to my own domain and then I was going to make the call (I know
I have 90 days but ...)

> I too have been on
> VM for a long time - heavens I was a beta tester on NtlWorld!

;-)

> Retentions
> direct line is 0800 952 2277 and it is often better to call them close
> to the end of the month or just into the new one.

Cheers.

> Do your homework, make
> sure you know what you options areand what you will accept, and what
> other ISPs in your area can offer as well. Also do you need high speed?

No, not really (as long as it's 'fast enough') and I have never actioned
a supposedly 'free upgrade to a faster speed' for that reason.

> I don't and just got $8/m discount for going down from 100Mb to 50Mb -
> in the safe and certain knowledge that they will upgrade me f.o.c to
> 100Mb in a few months time - they've done it at least twice before!

See above ... but if formally requesting a slower speed for less money
works I'll give it a go.

> It
> is also a good idea to back out of anything they offer, say no, and tell
> them you are giving the statutory 30 days notice. They will call you a
> week later with an offer you can't refuse.

Nice one. Like the old 'leave it in your shopping basket' trick.

>
> Also have a look to see if Cityfibre have anything in your area. They
> are outside my house so available and carry TalkTalk, Sky, VF and Zen. I
> am at the moment paying £36/m for 50Mb BB and phone (which we never use
> as we have a BT line.) I can have FTTP from Zen over Cityfibre running
> 145Mb for £29.95/m or 300Mb for £32.99/m. Phone costs an additional £7/m.

Ok.

>
> The one thing that many people overlook when thinking of leaving VM is
> the reliability of their service. In 22 years we have had four outages,
> the longest of three days when a drunk piled his car into the streetcab
> at the top of our road!

Oooerr (I am often putting the lids back on and closing the doors on
them when out dog walking).

> Can mi-fi beat that?

Maybe a small 'MiFi' unit might not but hopefully £200+'s worth of ZTE /
Netgear / TP_Link / Huawei 4/5G Cat6+ router with external aerial
options and Gb switch / LAN / Ethernet Wan / fallback might (subject to
the 4/5G side etc). On that I'm within 500m ATCF and pretty well
lign-of-sight from the local mast.
>

But yes, I have 'enjoyed' similar levels of reliability (and certainly
compared with many ADSL lines where restarting the router every so often
seems par for the course) and that was why I was asking here about the
'real world' performance of Mobile BB 'today'. Several people on Youtube
bought mobile solutions to provide temporary access but ended up
sticking with them because they got better performance (or service) than
the ADSL / Cable service they just left.

VM are currently charging me ~£45 for just BB at probably 100Mb/s and
according to my FritzBox router I downloaded 223,991MB last month
(9,144MB uploaded).

And I could afford to pay for a 'better' mobile BB service if I wasn't
paying the £44/m to VM and whatever BT currently charge for a telephone
line (that I rarely use and I doubt would sustain a decent ADSL service
judging by the line noise that it often present (that has been reported
and supposedly fixed several times over the years, seems fixed but then
returns)).

Keen to try stuff I've put another Smarty Data SIM online (£4.50/2G/m)
and it's currently in an old SGS4 running a wireless hotspot and have a
laptop connect though it to test for connectivity and check speeds etc.

I do have an old Zoom mobile BB router and a TP-Link one somewhere that
*might* take the ZTE 4G USB modem (MF833U1) but the Zoom doesn't seem
compatible. Then I was going to see if I could DIY a router using a RPI4
but that seems to involve loads of Linux CLI incantations that I know
will end in tears. ;-(

What I was hoping to do is put <whatever mobile service router> on my
LAN in parallel with VM but then I could set the default gateway on
selected devices to use that to give me the feel of how good / reliable
it was but could manually fall-back to VM if needed.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 08/08/2022 13:29, Mark Carver wrote:
<snip>

> A big factor can be the mobile router, and how much carrier aggregation
> it can deal with.

Is that the + part of 4G+ or does / can 4G use that as well?

>
> I bought a cheap Solwise 4G router about 5 years ago, it worked, but I
> could never get download speeds any better than about 5-10 Mb/s. Using
> the same SIM in my phone I could get ten times that speed.

OK, as a comparison: (Mbps)
Desktop PC LAN > VM - D:48 / U:23
SGS4 Phone WiFi > VM - D:38 / U:1.23
Laptop WiFi > Phone hotspot > Smarty (3) - D:3 / U: 23
Laptop WiFi > VM - D:38 / U:1.4
The App can't run directly from the SGS4 phone as it can't seem to find
any providers. Running the WEB version gives:
SGS4 Phone > Smarty (3) - D:16

As a comparison, SGS7 > EE (Web test) - D:37

> That's
> because often the fast data connections are on bands that only phones,
> or top end routers can support. My Solwise is nothing more than a 20
> quid 'stick' stuck in a tin box.

I don't think being in a tin box was a good design idea, ;-)

The routers supplied by the networks
> are often very low spec.

Understood. However, the (ZTE) 5G one 3 seems to be supplying seems to
be £200+ if you wanted to buy one yourself. Now that could just be
inflated *because* it's 5G or it might partly at least represent the
value of the 5G guts over a more common 4G one?


Cheers, T i m

[MikeS]

On 08/08/2022 12:39, T i m wrote:

The key and often forgotten issue with using mobile broadband at home is
reliability. Its fine while its working.

I have had BT phone and broadband for years with no problems. During
that time I also used (company supplied) mobile broadband dongles for 3,
O2, Vodafone and EE at home. Each was fine until their local mast went
down. Except with 3 it then took weeks and with EE months to get it
fixed. This is in a major suburban area, not out in the wilds somewhere.

The problem is that they cannot guarantee a good signal everywhere so
they exploit that as a loophole and guarantee their services nowhere.
Don't take my word, have a look at all their user support forums.

[Woody]

EE are and will have to get their act together. They are providing the
4G infrastructure for the emergency services comms network that will
replace Airwave (albeit they should have had it fully up an running in
2018!!)

[Tweed]

It is a good point well made. Last year our local Vodafone mast went far
faulty for 5 months. It radiated a strong 4G signal and allowed mobiles to
attach. However all data (including voice) went to /dev/null. It took O2
down with it as well.

[Woody]

If it took O2 down as well then the issue was more likely not the site
but the (Cornerstone) shared distribution network that was at fault -
and finding a data stream problem in such can be a nightmare.

As a tip to all readers, if you have such an issue and the technical
knowledge as above, plus you can define the site at fault, a quick call
to the NOC on the phone number on the site gate or cabinet can be of
enormous help to the SP.

[T i m]

On 08/08/2022 22:05, MikeS wrote:

<snip>

> The key and often forgotten issue with using mobile broadband at home is
> reliability. Its fine while its working.
>
> I have had BT phone and broadband for years with no problems. During
> that time I also used (company supplied) mobile broadband dongles for 3,
> O2, Vodafone and EE at home. Each was fine until their local mast went
> down. Except with 3 it then took weeks and with EE months to get it
> fixed. This is in a major suburban area, not out in the wilds somewhere.

Thanks. These are the sort of 'real world' things I was interested in.

So is it that if a mast went down the voice users would likely (be)
switch(ed) to a different one but the data (only) users couldn't /
wouldn't? I'm thinking in urban areas where there is likely to be
reasonable coverage via multiple masts etc?

>
> The problem is that they cannot guarantee a good signal everywhere so
> they exploit that as a loophole and guarantee their services nowhere.

Understood.

> Don't take my word, have a look at all their user support forums.
>

No, I can believe it and why I was asking here. As you say, if you are
offering something that is fundamentality somewhat indeterminate
('airwaves') then I can see it would be more difficult to pin the SP
down in the event of supply issues.

In contrast to the supply being sent over some bits of wire or glass. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 09/08/2022 06:52, Tweed wrote:
<snip>

>
> It is a good point well made. Last year our local Vodafone mast went far
> faulty for 5 months. It radiated a strong 4G signal and allowed mobiles to
> attach. However all data (including voice) went to /dev/null. It took O2
> down with it as well.
>

So in that case did that mean that those users affected simply couldn't
get any service or that they likely got a less stable service from a
more distant mast(s)?

I just wondering how say Voda would deal with all their customers that
were affected? I mean, if they were on contracts, would they be able to
get discounts / rebates?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 08/08/2022 16:20, Woody wrote:

<snip>

> Also have a look to see if Cityfibre have anything in your area. They
> are outside my house so available and carry TalkTalk, Sky, VF and Zen. I
> am at the moment paying £36/m for 50Mb BB and phone (which we never use
> as we have a BT line.) I can have FTTP from Zen over Cityfibre running
> 145Mb for £29.95/m or 300Mb for £32.99/m. Phone costs an additional £7/m.

I just did a check with Zen over Cityfibre and it suggested:

9-15 Mbps Estimated Download

0.9 Mbps
Estimated Upload
5 Mbps
Minimum Guaranteed Download

£32.99 /month £29.99 set-up fee

For our daughter on ADSL / Plusnet, *every time* she is suffering with
poor internet access via her wired BB she turns on her mobile data and
*every time* (so far anyway) she is then able to do what she wants. Not
that means it *will* always be that way of course but statistically ... ?

Cheers, T i m

[Chris]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>
> VM are currently charging me ~£45 for just BB at probably 100Mb/s

This is your main problem. You can get BB for about half that.

The times that I've had to resort to mobile data for work, it's never been
reliable enough. I would stick with wired if you want to have reliability.

> according to my FritzBox router I downloaded 223,991MB last month
> (9,144MB uploaded).

That's a lot of usage for mobile. You'll need an unlimited deal to give you
that amount data.

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 8 August 2022 at 12:39:09 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
> I've been with VM since it took over NTL and with them from when they
> took over Cable-Tel and apart from the once where I got BB free for a
> year, the price keeps climbing to a point where I really should look for
> alternatives. Whilst there I may (then) also dump the BT line that I'm
> paying for but rarely using and am not sure would be good enough to
> support and ADSL BB service in any case (line noise for years).

Maybe, but with FTTC there is only the line between you and the cabinet for BB.

>
> I recently picked up a Smarty Data only SIM (unlimited, £18/m rolling)
> and an unlocked HUAWEI B311 router that worked ok for the couple of days
> I had it here. Watched a film on Netflix via a NowTV HD stick with no
> buffering but one complete dropout. Strangely though I was often getting
> upload speeds double of that of download (though the router or a 4G USB
> dongle)?

Not unusual. ADSL exploits the preponderance of download over upload resulting in the former being much faster than the latter.

>
> Daughter then borrowed the Router for a couple of days and is likely go
> that way herself (she's already with Smarty for her phone) as her
> Plusnet / ADSL service has never been very good.
>
> The router is now under test in a student house in Brighton and subject
> to it being a viable solution for them, them either sticking with that
> router and getting their own SIM with Smarty or going with someone /
> thing else.
>
> So the questions are, can mobile BB actually be a real world replacement
> for a cable (over fibre optic maybe), given a fighting chance (distance
> to local mast etc) and if so, would it be worth going for something 5G
> ready now (when I don't think the 5G service is available indoors at any
> of the locations mentioned yet) or would 4G(+) likely to be the best vfm
> (even on an unlimited 5G SIM) right now and then maybe upgrade later?

Yes implemented 4G modem here in Manchester for business whose ADSL was pitifully slow. Reasonable, if variable data rate on Three. Mast in clear line of site from aerial and about 300m away.

>
> I might be tempted to go for the Three 5G mobile router monthly /
> unlimited deal as it's still way cheaper than what I'm paying for phone
> / BB now plus you get the use of £200+ worth of router. If that works I
> might then buy one and go Smarty?

You won't get any speed advantage using 5G [yet] as MMwave is not implement in the UK, and UK mobiles do not have it in.
OTOH 5G does allow more concurrency so you are less likely to get throttled at busy times just because the airwaves are "full".

>
> I appreciate much of this is 'YMMV' but if people have successfully
> switched to mobile BB then at least I know there aren't any 'gotchas',
> like it's ok for streaming films but not for video conferencing because
> of high latency etc or that uptime might not be as good as a bounded
> solution?

Streams recorded content OK, as your end can buffer ahead.

Not used it for Zoom or live stream, so can't say, however you can just use a phone on its own (which does work).

OTOH 4k live stream over BB (40 - 50Mbps) sometimes falters, but which end is responsible is hard to say,

Three SIM invoved gets fairly heavy daytime usage, but unlikely to trip over any fair usage issues. Been in a couple of years now without complaint from 3.
Despite Three's other gotcha's (roaming rip off, 321 cancelled) no hint of throttling or complaints.

>
> Cheers, T i m

[Java Jive]

On 09/08/2022 15:14, Chris wrote:
>
> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>> VM are currently charging me ~£45 for just BB at probably 100Mb/s
>
> This is your main problem. You can get BB for about half that.

You can get a fairly decent unlimited mobile service for half that as well:

https://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/Plans_for_phones

> The times that I've had to resort to mobile data for work, it's never been
> reliable enough. I would stick with wired if you want to have reliability.

Can't agree with that and other similar criticisms in the thread.
Around here, rural Sutherland, mobile is far more reliable and gives far
better speeds than ADSL, for example, now, 6pm, is around peak usage
time when you will get the lowest speeds:

Latency 78 ms
Download 7.6 Mbps
Upload 1.7 Mbps

https://broadbandtest.which.co.uk/

That's about 5 to 7 times what I could ever get via ADSL over my
landline, which is why I discontinued it some years ago, and in the
middle of the night I can get 15-20 Mbps down.

>> according to my FritzBox router I downloaded 223,991MB last month
>> (9,144MB uploaded).
>
> That's a lot of usage for mobile. You'll need an unlimited deal to give you
> that amount data.

See the deals linked above.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[Tweed]

Wherever the fault lay, it affected that one site only. Moving into the
coverage of any adjacent site resumed communications. I had a very
protracted set of interactions with Vodafone, with me having to prove that
every other adjacent site was working, as they insisted their remote
diagnostics was showing everything was working.

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

You couldn’t get service from other masts, as the radio link between mast
and handset was working and allowing the handset to attach. It was just
impossible to move any data. The only way to use the phone was to force it
to use 3G, which did work from that mast.

It took me weeks to convince Vodafone that there was a fault and then it
took them months to fix it. Eventually they credited me with £80, but I’d
rather had done without the hassle.

Even the second line tech support have no access to the engineering teams
(who don’t appear to work for Vodafone anymore).

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

Those figures cannot be for a Cityfibre connection, which is fibre to the
home. The numbers look more like those for ADSL over copper.

[Tweed]

So the 150 MBits/sec both up and down on 5G Vodafone at Newcastle railway
station using an iPhone are something I imagined?

[Woody]

To get FTTP figures from Zen your house has to have Cityfibre passing
outside and they have to be selling in your area.

To get to the real figures you have to in effect apply for the service,
<then> the first thing you get are the download options and prices
before you commit yourself in any way.

I agree, the figures Tim has given above are for ADSL. The prices I
quoted are definitely FTTP, save that the Zen website is wrong. It shows
upload speed as 14-18% of download speed where another on this group has
queried Zen who confirm the upload is reciprocal.

[Martin Brown]

On 08/08/2022 16:20, Woody wrote:

+1

But you do have to look like you mean it and have done your homework as
to where you are going to go and at what price performance point.

> Also have a look to see if Cityfibre have anything in your area. They
> are outside my house so available and carry TalkTalk, Sky, VF and Zen. I
> am at the moment paying £36/m for 50Mb BB and phone (which we never use
> as we have a BT line.) I can have FTTP from Zen over Cityfibre running
> 145Mb for £29.95/m or 300Mb for £32.99/m. Phone costs an additional £7/m.

Suitable haggling will get the full fibre nominal 100M + phone deal out
of BT for about £30 all inclusive. Start slower than you actually want
and grudgingly allow them to up sell you to a faster service.

>
> The one thing that many people overlook when thinking of leaving VM is
> the reliability of their service. In 22 years we have had four outages,
> the longest of three days when a drunk piled his car into the streetcab
> at the top of our road! Can mi-fi beat that?

It is a *very* useful fall back when the fixed line goes down though.
The mobile network still works for a short while with no mains power. I
find that I need the USB dongle on a longer USB extender to get the
thing away from the hash of RF noise that the fast laptop makes.

The simplest cut price model is a Mifi pebble and a data SIM to use when
you need additional capacity away from home (beyond what is on your
phone contract). Snag with using mobile data regularly and from home is
that you will find it may be in contention with other users at peak
times. So many people stream HD TV to their mobile phones these days!

Mifi pebbles that accept external antennas are the best choice since
then you can ensure that the thing has more than enough signal even in
an area with poor signal quality indoors.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Chris]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 09/08/2022 15:14, Chris wrote:
>>
>> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> VM are currently charging me ~£45 for just BB at probably 100Mb/s
>>
>> This is your main problem. You can get BB for about half that.
>
> You can get a fairly decent unlimited mobile service for half that as well:
>
> https://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/Plans_for_phones
>
>> The times that I've had to resort to mobile data for work, it's never been
>> reliable enough. I would stick with wired if you want to have reliability.
>
> Can't agree with that and other similar criticisms in the thread.
> Around here, rural Sutherland

That's a very atypical example.

> mobile is far more reliable and gives far
> better speeds than ADSL, for example, now, 6pm, is around peak usage
> time when you will get the lowest speeds:
>
> Latency 78 ms
> Download 7.6 Mbps
> Upload 1.7 Mbps
>
> https://broadbandtest.which.co.uk/
>
> That's about 5 to 7 times what I could ever get via ADSL over my
> landline, which is why I discontinued it some years ago

Unsurprisingly as you're probably many miles from the nearest exchange.

[Java Jive]

On 09/08/2022 22:09, Chris wrote:

>
> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> That's about 5 to 7 times what I could ever get via ADSL over my
>> landline, which is why I discontinued it some years ago
>
> Unsurprisingly as you're probably many miles from the nearest exchange.

It shows that mobile broadband can be an affordable and workable
solution, which is what the OP was asking.

[T i m]

On 09/08/2022 18:24, Tweed wrote:
> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 09/08/2022 06:52, Tweed wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> It is a good point well made. Last year our local Vodafone mast went far
>>> faulty for 5 months. It radiated a strong 4G signal and allowed mobiles to
>>> attach. However all data (including voice) went to /dev/null. It took O2
>>> down with it as well.
>>>
>>
>> So in that case did that mean that those users affected simply couldn't
>> get any service or that they likely got a less stable service from a
>> more distant mast(s)?
>>
>> I just wondering how say Voda would deal with all their customers that
>> were affected? I mean, if they were on contracts, would they be able to
>> get discounts / rebates?
>>
>> Cheers, T i m
>>
>
> You couldn’t get service from other masts, as the radio link between mast
> and handset was working and allowing the handset to attach.

Ah.

> It was just
> impossible to move any data. The only way to use the phone was to force it
> to use 3G, which did work from that mast.

Makes sense.

>
> It took me weeks to convince Vodafone that there was a fault and then it
> took them months to fix it.

I find that really strange. Ok, from being in 'IT Support' most my life
means I have seen all sorts of strange scenarios but would generally
(back then) be able to rattle someones cage hard enough to get
*something* moving.

Customer: 'BT say they have tested the line and say it's ok so you need
to send an engineer out'.

Me: We can certainly send an engineer out but may I advise you that
because I'm not satisfied the fault is with us and the information you
just gave me would suggest the fault still lies with BT, if the fault
isn't with us we may have to charge you for the visit. May I suggest you
give BT another call and ask them to double check?'.

2 hours later ...

Customer: "Hey Tim, you haven't sent an engineer out yet have you as I
rang BT again and it's all just started working again ...' ;-)

> Eventually they credited me with £80, but I’d
> rather had done without the hassle.

No, quite, how frustrating. ;-(

>
> Even the second line tech support have no access to the engineering teams
> (who don’t appear to work for Vodafone anymore).
>

Bizarre.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 09/08/2022 15:17, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 8 August 2022 at 12:39:09 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
>> I've been with VM since it took over NTL and with them from when they
>> took over Cable-Tel and apart from the once where I got BB free for a
>> year, the price keeps climbing to a point where I really should look for
>> alternatives. Whilst there I may (then) also dump the BT line that I'm
>> paying for but rarely using and am not sure would be good enough to
>> support and ADSL BB service in any case (line noise for years).
>
> Maybe, but with FTTC there is only the line between you and the cabinet for BB.

Understood, but unfortunately that includes a pole, a couple of
junctions and a quantity of ally cable ... ;-(

>
>>
>> I recently picked up a Smarty Data only SIM (unlimited, £18/m rolling)
>> and an unlocked HUAWEI B311 router that worked ok for the couple of days
>> I had it here. Watched a film on Netflix via a NowTV HD stick with no
>> buffering but one complete dropout. Strangely though I was often getting
>> upload speeds double of that of download (though the router or a 4G USB
>> dongle)?
>
> Not unusual. ADSL exploits the preponderance of download over upload resulting in the former being much faster than the latter.

Sorry, this was over the mobile BB and upload *faster* than download
(bizarre right and why I mentioned it).

I don't know if that can happen if the download load on the local mast
is already high?

>
>>
>> Daughter then borrowed the Router for a couple of days and is likely go
>> that way herself (she's already with Smarty for her phone) as her
>> Plusnet / ADSL service has never been very good.
>>
>> The router is now under test in a student house in Brighton and subject
>> to it being a viable solution for them, them either sticking with that
>> router and getting their own SIM with Smarty or going with someone /
>> thing else.
>>
>> So the questions are, can mobile BB actually be a real world replacement
>> for a cable (over fibre optic maybe), given a fighting chance (distance
>> to local mast etc) and if so, would it be worth going for something 5G
>> ready now (when I don't think the 5G service is available indoors at any
>> of the locations mentioned yet) or would 4G(+) likely to be the best vfm
>> (even on an unlimited 5G SIM) right now and then maybe upgrade later?
>
> Yes implemented 4G modem here in Manchester for business whose ADSL was pitifully slow. Reasonable, if variable data rate on Three. Mast in clear line of site from aerial and about 300m away.

Interesting, thanks.

>
>>
>> I might be tempted to go for the Three 5G mobile router monthly /
>> unlimited deal as it's still way cheaper than what I'm paying for phone
>> / BB now plus you get the use of £200+ worth of router. If that works I
>> might then buy one and go Smarty?
>
> You won't get any speed advantage using 5G [yet] as MMwave is not implement in the UK, and UK mobiles do not have it in.

Ah, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of (not sure how
'established' 5G was, even where it has been available for a while etc).

> OTOH 5G does allow more concurrency so you are less likely to get throttled at busy times just because the airwaves are "full".

Understood.

>
>>
>> I appreciate much of this is 'YMMV' but if people have successfully
>> switched to mobile BB then at least I know there aren't any 'gotchas',
>> like it's ok for streaming films but not for video conferencing because
>> of high latency etc or that uptime might not be as good as a bounded
>> solution?
>
> Streams recorded content OK, as your end can buffer ahead.

Yeah.

>
> Not used it for Zoom or live stream, so can't say, however you can just use a phone on its own (which does work).

Sure and fine for me as I have unlimited data but daughter and the (4)
'students' do / may not.

>
> OTOH 4k live stream over BB (40 - 50Mbps) sometimes falters, but which end is responsible is hard to say,

Understood.

>
> Three SIM invoved gets fairly heavy daytime usage, but unlikely to trip over any fair usage issues. Been in a couple of years now without complaint from 3.

That's a good sign.

> Despite Three's other gotcha's (roaming rip off, 321 cancelled) no hint of throttling or complaints.

Excellent. ;-)

Niece reported that with the three of them online this evening it was
'slow' (Smarty, basic 4G router) yet I was on her Laptop via Teamviewer
this morning checking for firmware upgrades on her Powerline units and
showing her other BB choices / options whilst talking to her over
Whatsapp and it was mostly as good as 'being there'. So I suggested that
she creates a paper log of the speed test results over the day and
suggested the others also tried the same from their phones, especially
if on 'other' networks (Data allowances accepting etc).

So it's quite possible that three of them may assume they all should be
able to stream stuff over the same basic setup and at the busy time in
the evening, something they may not be able to do over ADSL (there) either.

They will only be in the house for a year and that limits any supplier
that doesn't offer a 12 month contract. If niece goes 5G for them (they
contribute etc) she can take it with her to wherever she ends up next
(As long as it has 4G and hopefully 5G by then)?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 09/08/2022 18:34, Tweed wrote:
> notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>
>> You won't get any speed advantage using 5G [yet] as MMwave is not
>> implement in the UK, and UK mobiles do not have it in.
>
> So the 150 MBits/sec both up and down on 5G Vodafone at Newcastle railway
> station using an iPhone are something I imagined?
>

Aren't they the theoretical maximum speeds for straight 4G, 300 for 4G+
or summat? <shrug>

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

No, sure, I did the test from the Zen site and that's all it gave me so
maybe we don't have fibre here yet?

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

Regardless of the theoretical results, my highest 4G download speed in the
UK has been around 80Mbits/sec. I did get just over 100 in Iceland a few
years back. I suspect the 150 at Newcastle on 5G was more down to few
others being around at the time who had 5G handsets, thus having
effectively a private cell.

In my experience, Vodafone sites on 4G fall into two broad types - old ones
that top out at around 10 MBits/sec and upgraded ones that can get to about
80 but usually hang around at 50.

I have installed a Vodafone MiFi device for a colleague to work from home
who lives in a rural area. Even after a subsidised FTTC cabinet was
installed speeds were very low due to a very long local loop to the
cabinet. She was unable to conduct video calls. The Vodafone link works
very well and she can now reliably conduct video Teams calls.

Cellular links are very much a shared medium and performance is highly
dependent on whoever else is using the site, and this can be variable over
short and long time scales.

If I were to rank home broadband technologies, assuming I had access to all
of them, (unlikely!) I think it would go like this:

FTTH via Cityfibre (symmetric up and download speeds)
FTTH via Open Reach infrastructure (slower upload speeds)
Virgin Media cable DOCIS (slower upload speeds, higher jitter than FTTH,
local segment shared)
FTTC but only if you live reasonably near to the cabinet
Mobile cellular connection (performance too undefined)
ADSL (slow)

I’m on VM cable, as neither form of FTTH has reached me yet.

At work we are on 100Gbit to the site and 1Gbit to the desktop. At that
point you simply forget about the network being a bottleneck.

[Tweed]

It’s a failing of many ISP checker sites that they don’t tell you the
technology involved. Even the AAISP site has become dumbed down from what
it was.

[T i m]

On 10/08/2022 07:37, Tweed wrote:

<snip>

>> No, sure, I did the test from the Zen site and that's all it gave me so
>> maybe we don't have fibre here yet?
>>
>

> It’s a failing of many ISP checker sites that they don’t tell you the
> technology involved. Even the AAISP site has become dumbed down from what
> it was.
>

FWIW the Zen checker gave me:

"Were you hoping for faster speeds?

Pre-register now to find out when you're full fibre ready..."

Cheers, T i m

[Martin Brown]

Optimist! Tetra never worked properly but was still deployed.
They call it Airwave these days.

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252512228/Police-Digital-Service-offers-50m-contact-for-TETRA-products-and-services

Now that mobile phones are digital and can be hard encrypted I'm not at
all convinced that it is value for money (or ever was).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[T i m]

On 10/08/2022 07:35, Tweed wrote:

<snip>

> Regardless of the theoretical results, my highest 4G download speed in the
> UK has been around 80Mbits/sec.

OOI I just ran the Ookla speedtest from my SGS7 via WiFi to my SGS4 and
to 3 (Smarty) and saw 20Mb/s down and 19.1Mb/s up.

FWIW my SGS7 directly onto EE 4G LTE gave a download of 37Mb/s and
upload of .98Mb/s.

> I did get just over 100 in Iceland a few
> years back. I suspect the 150 at Newcastle on 5G was more down to few
> others being around at the time who had 5G handsets, thus having
> effectively a private cell.

;-)

>
> In my experience, Vodafone sites on 4G fall into two broad types - old ones
> that top out at around 10 MBits/sec and upgraded ones that can get to about
> 80 but usually hang around at 50.

Ok, interesting.

>
> I have installed a Vodafone MiFi device for a colleague to work from home
> who lives in a rural area. Even after a subsidised FTTC cabinet was
> installed speeds were very low due to a very long local loop to the
> cabinet. She was unable to conduct video calls. The Vodafone link works
> very well and she can now reliably conduct video Teams calls.

Yeah, that was a similar experience for our daughter (mobile MM V ADSL).

>
> Cellular links are very much a shared medium and performance is highly
> dependent on whoever else is using the site, and this can be variable over
> short and long time scales.

And I'm guessing there is no stated contention ratio other than the
maximium concurrent connections any node is willing to carry?

>
> If I were to rank home broadband technologies, assuming I had access to all
> of them, (unlikely!) I think it would go like this:
>
> FTTH via Cityfibre (symmetric up and download speeds)
> FTTH via Open Reach infrastructure (slower upload speeds)
> Virgin Media cable DOCIS (slower upload speeds, higher jitter than FTTH,
> local segment shared)

My VM cabinet is just across the road.

> FTTC but only if you live reasonably near to the cabinet

I'm not sure where the nearest BT cabinet is (I'll keep a look out for
it). Would there be one if the exchange is actually at the top of the
road (~500m away) or could it be near that (I think I have seen a fairly
large one at the top of the road now I think of it) so my LL is likely
to be about the same FTCC or otherwise?

> Mobile cellular connection (performance too undefined)

Noted and seen.

> ADSL (slow)

The only regular ADSL service (BT) I've ever used is round the corner at
my Mums and shes only ~800m from the same exchange as the cable might
run. I can't remember ever running a speedtest there but I do know we
have been though a few routers over the years (whilst I've been using
the same FritzBox Fon WAN for years and years) and have had to reboot
all of them now and again to regain functioning BB. I don't ever
remember it being particular fast or slow when it was working (no issues
streaming HD via a NowTV stick etc).

>
> I’m on VM cable, as neither form of FTTH has reached me yet.

I wonder if that might be partly why? Too much obvious competition for
anyone wanting high speed Internet?

>
> At work we are on 100Gbit to the site and 1Gbit to the desktop. At that
> point you simply forget about the network being a bottleneck.

I bet! ;-)

I feel I should invest in a 'reasonable' 4G+ router that can handle the
existing BB as a fallback device, have a Gb switch built in (I already
have a router acting as an AP / switch where the router might stand),
have the option for external aerials (FWIW, given our proximity to the
local mast) and potentially a VOIP port, if I either just use one of the
two local number lines I have from Sipgate via my FritzBox router and /
or if I could have my existing landline number ported over to a VOIP
service so I can retain access to that number for those people who may
not have my mobile yet (like the doctors or whoever).

Also a couple of older mates (and my Mum) often ring me on my LL and I
generally offer to ring them back on my mobile to reduce their costs and
because the LL is still often very noisy (and why I'd be keen to dump it).

Cheers, T i m

[Woody]

Per the FTTC cabinet, first go to broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com and
enter your phone number. This will show you all sorts of data about your
line, but across the top of the box it will show you which cabinet you
are connected to. Then go to Angus' superb site magsys.co.uk, select
Code Look and enter your number. It will come up with the exchange name.
Click on that name and an enlarged sheet of exchange data comes up. At
the top it says "All nn fibre cabinets" which if you click on will give
you a map with the cabinets marked. Find yours - it may not be where you
expect it to be and neither will the map necessarily be correct. For
instance mine is shown as about 200yds or so down our road where in fact
it is about 100yds down an avenue which in turn is about 50yds farther
than where the maps indicates the cab to be. I know it is my cab as it
has the number printed on the side!