Real world mobile BB over cabled?

[T i m]

I've been with VM since it took over NTL and with them from when they
took over Cable-Tel and apart from the once where I got BB free for a
year, the price keeps climbing to a point where I really should look for
alternatives. Whilst there I may (then) also dump the BT line that I'm
paying for but rarely using and am not sure would be good enough to
support and ADSL BB service in any case (line noise for years).

I recently picked up a Smarty Data only SIM (unlimited, £18/m rolling)
and an unlocked HUAWEI B311 router that worked ok for the couple of days
I had it here. Watched a film on Netflix via a NowTV HD stick with no
buffering but one complete dropout. Strangely though I was often getting
upload speeds double of that of download (though the router or a 4G USB
dongle)?

Daughter then borrowed the Router for a couple of days and is likely go
that way herself (she's already with Smarty for her phone) as her
Plusnet / ADSL service has never been very good.

The router is now under test in a student house in Brighton and subject
to it being a viable solution for them, them either sticking with that
router and getting their own SIM with Smarty or going with someone /
thing else.

So the questions are, can mobile BB actually be a real world replacement
for a cable (over fibre optic maybe), given a fighting chance (distance
to local mast etc) and if so, would it be worth going for something 5G
ready now (when I don't think the 5G service is available indoors at any
of the locations mentioned yet) or would 4G(+) likely to be the best vfm
(even on an unlimited 5G SIM) right now and then maybe upgrade later?

I might be tempted to go for the Three 5G mobile router monthly /
unlimited deal as it's still way cheaper than what I'm paying for phone
/ BB now plus you get the use of £200+ worth of router. If that works I
might then buy one and go Smarty?

I appreciate much of this is 'YMMV' but if people have successfully
switched to mobile BB then at least I know there aren't any 'gotchas',
like it's ok for streaming films but not for video conferencing because
of high latency etc or that uptime might not be as good as a bounded
solution?

Cheers, T i m

[Mark Carver]

A big factor can be the mobile router, and how much carrier aggregation
it can deal with.

I bought a cheap Solwise 4G router about 5 years ago, it worked, but I
could never get download speeds any better than about 5-10 Mb/s. Using
the same SIM in my phone I could get ten times that speed. That's
because often the fast data connections are on bands that only phones,
or top end routers can support. My Solwise is nothing more than a 20
quid 'stick' stuck in a tin box. The routers supplied by the networks
are often very low spec.

[Abandoned_Trolley]

On 08/08/2022 12:39, T i m wrote:

Just because your SIM works in a router for a few days, dont assume that
its going to be a workable long term solution.

In some cases, unlimited data tariffs are not intended for heavy use and
since the operators appear to be able to detect when you are "tethering"
then its safe to assume that they will know when the SIM is stuffed in
to somehting which is not a phone.

I believe that giffgaff have arrangements to throttle download speeds
for tethered terminals at certain times of the day and I guess others
will be doing the same. You may well find that limits are applied as
soon as you go "unlimited".

You might need to migrate to some sort of business tariff to get what
you "really really" want - and in the meantime, comparing apples with
pears maybe therapeutic but it doesnt help.





--
random signature text inserted here

[Woody]

This may sound a silly question, but has the OP tried rattling VM's cage
to get a better deal out of them? Talking to Retentions can often get
staggering discounts - been there, done that etc etc. I too have been on
VM for a long time - heavens I was a beta tester on NtlWorld! Retentions
direct line is 0800 952 2277 and it is often better to call them close
to the end of the month or just into the new one. Do your homework, make
sure you know what you options areand what you will accept, and what
other ISPs in your area can offer as well. Also do you need high speed?
I don't and just got $8/m discount for going down from 100Mb to 50Mb -
in the safe and certain knowledge that they will upgrade me f.o.c to
100Mb in a few months time - they've done it at least twice before! It
is also a good idea to back out of anything they offer, say no, and tell
them you are giving the statutory 30 days notice. They will call you a
week later with an offer you can't refuse.

Also have a look to see if Cityfibre have anything in your area. They
are outside my house so available and carry TalkTalk, Sky, VF and Zen. I
am at the moment paying £36/m for 50Mb BB and phone (which we never use
as we have a BT line.) I can have FTTP from Zen over Cityfibre running
145Mb for £29.95/m or 300Mb for £32.99/m. Phone costs an additional £7/m.

The one thing that many people overlook when thinking of leaving VM is
the reliability of their service. In 22 years we have had four outages,
the longest of three days when a drunk piled his car into the streetcab
at the top of our road! Can mi-fi beat that?

[T i m]

On 08/08/2022 16:20, Woody wrote:

<snip>

> This may sound a silly question, but has the OP tried rattling VM's cage
> to get a better deal out of them?

Hi Woody. ;-)

> Talking to Retentions can often get
> staggering discounts - been there, done that etc etc.

No, I haven't tried this time round but have in the past and generally
do with the likes of the AA etc. That was how I got it free for a year
because after fcuking up giving me 'the next couples of months free' for
3 months in a row (to retain my custom), they just credited my account
with a years work of payments. ;-)

What I am in the process of doing is migrating any emails still left on
NTL over to my own domain and then I was going to make the call (I know
I have 90 days but ...)

> I too have been on
> VM for a long time - heavens I was a beta tester on NtlWorld!

;-)

> Retentions
> direct line is 0800 952 2277 and it is often better to call them close
> to the end of the month or just into the new one.

Cheers.

> Do your homework, make
> sure you know what you options areand what you will accept, and what
> other ISPs in your area can offer as well. Also do you need high speed?

No, not really (as long as it's 'fast enough') and I have never actioned
a supposedly 'free upgrade to a faster speed' for that reason.

> I don't and just got $8/m discount for going down from 100Mb to 50Mb -
> in the safe and certain knowledge that they will upgrade me f.o.c to
> 100Mb in a few months time - they've done it at least twice before!

See above ... but if formally requesting a slower speed for less money
works I'll give it a go.

> It
> is also a good idea to back out of anything they offer, say no, and tell
> them you are giving the statutory 30 days notice. They will call you a
> week later with an offer you can't refuse.

Nice one. Like the old 'leave it in your shopping basket' trick.

>
> Also have a look to see if Cityfibre have anything in your area. They
> are outside my house so available and carry TalkTalk, Sky, VF and Zen. I
> am at the moment paying £36/m for 50Mb BB and phone (which we never use
> as we have a BT line.) I can have FTTP from Zen over Cityfibre running
> 145Mb for £29.95/m or 300Mb for £32.99/m. Phone costs an additional £7/m.

Ok.

>
> The one thing that many people overlook when thinking of leaving VM is
> the reliability of their service. In 22 years we have had four outages,
> the longest of three days when a drunk piled his car into the streetcab
> at the top of our road!

Oooerr (I am often putting the lids back on and closing the doors on
them when out dog walking).

> Can mi-fi beat that?

Maybe a small 'MiFi' unit might not but hopefully £200+'s worth of ZTE /
Netgear / TP_Link / Huawei 4/5G Cat6+ router with external aerial
options and Gb switch / LAN / Ethernet Wan / fallback might (subject to
the 4/5G side etc). On that I'm within 500m ATCF and pretty well
lign-of-sight from the local mast.
>

But yes, I have 'enjoyed' similar levels of reliability (and certainly
compared with many ADSL lines where restarting the router every so often
seems par for the course) and that was why I was asking here about the
'real world' performance of Mobile BB 'today'. Several people on Youtube
bought mobile solutions to provide temporary access but ended up
sticking with them because they got better performance (or service) than
the ADSL / Cable service they just left.

VM are currently charging me ~£45 for just BB at probably 100Mb/s and
according to my FritzBox router I downloaded 223,991MB last month
(9,144MB uploaded).

And I could afford to pay for a 'better' mobile BB service if I wasn't
paying the £44/m to VM and whatever BT currently charge for a telephone
line (that I rarely use and I doubt would sustain a decent ADSL service
judging by the line noise that it often present (that has been reported
and supposedly fixed several times over the years, seems fixed but then
returns)).

Keen to try stuff I've put another Smarty Data SIM online (£4.50/2G/m)
and it's currently in an old SGS4 running a wireless hotspot and have a
laptop connect though it to test for connectivity and check speeds etc.

I do have an old Zoom mobile BB router and a TP-Link one somewhere that
*might* take the ZTE 4G USB modem (MF833U1) but the Zoom doesn't seem
compatible. Then I was going to see if I could DIY a router using a RPI4
but that seems to involve loads of Linux CLI incantations that I know
will end in tears. ;-(

What I was hoping to do is put <whatever mobile service router> on my
LAN in parallel with VM but then I could set the default gateway on
selected devices to use that to give me the feel of how good / reliable
it was but could manually fall-back to VM if needed.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 08/08/2022 13:29, Mark Carver wrote:
<snip>

> A big factor can be the mobile router, and how much carrier aggregation
> it can deal with.

Is that the + part of 4G+ or does / can 4G use that as well?

>
> I bought a cheap Solwise 4G router about 5 years ago, it worked, but I
> could never get download speeds any better than about 5-10 Mb/s. Using
> the same SIM in my phone I could get ten times that speed.

OK, as a comparison: (Mbps)
Desktop PC LAN > VM - D:48 / U:23
SGS4 Phone WiFi > VM - D:38 / U:1.23
Laptop WiFi > Phone hotspot > Smarty (3) - D:3 / U: 23
Laptop WiFi > VM - D:38 / U:1.4
The App can't run directly from the SGS4 phone as it can't seem to find
any providers. Running the WEB version gives:
SGS4 Phone > Smarty (3) - D:16

As a comparison, SGS7 > EE (Web test) - D:37

> That's
> because often the fast data connections are on bands that only phones,
> or top end routers can support. My Solwise is nothing more than a 20
> quid 'stick' stuck in a tin box.

I don't think being in a tin box was a good design idea, ;-)

The routers supplied by the networks
> are often very low spec.

Understood. However, the (ZTE) 5G one 3 seems to be supplying seems to
be £200+ if you wanted to buy one yourself. Now that could just be
inflated *because* it's 5G or it might partly at least represent the
value of the 5G guts over a more common 4G one?


Cheers, T i m

[MikeS]

On 08/08/2022 12:39, T i m wrote:

The key and often forgotten issue with using mobile broadband at home is
reliability. Its fine while its working.

I have had BT phone and broadband for years with no problems. During
that time I also used (company supplied) mobile broadband dongles for 3,
O2, Vodafone and EE at home. Each was fine until their local mast went
down. Except with 3 it then took weeks and with EE months to get it
fixed. This is in a major suburban area, not out in the wilds somewhere.

The problem is that they cannot guarantee a good signal everywhere so
they exploit that as a loophole and guarantee their services nowhere.
Don't take my word, have a look at all their user support forums.

[Woody]

EE are and will have to get their act together. They are providing the
4G infrastructure for the emergency services comms network that will
replace Airwave (albeit they should have had it fully up an running in
2018!!)

[Tweed]

It is a good point well made. Last year our local Vodafone mast went far
faulty for 5 months. It radiated a strong 4G signal and allowed mobiles to
attach. However all data (including voice) went to /dev/null. It took O2
down with it as well.

[Woody]

If it took O2 down as well then the issue was more likely not the site
but the (Cornerstone) shared distribution network that was at fault -
and finding a data stream problem in such can be a nightmare.

As a tip to all readers, if you have such an issue and the technical
knowledge as above, plus you can define the site at fault, a quick call
to the NOC on the phone number on the site gate or cabinet can be of
enormous help to the SP.

[T i m]

On 08/08/2022 22:05, MikeS wrote:

<snip>

> The key and often forgotten issue with using mobile broadband at home is
> reliability. Its fine while its working.
>
> I have had BT phone and broadband for years with no problems. During
> that time I also used (company supplied) mobile broadband dongles for 3,
> O2, Vodafone and EE at home. Each was fine until their local mast went
> down. Except with 3 it then took weeks and with EE months to get it
> fixed. This is in a major suburban area, not out in the wilds somewhere.

Thanks. These are the sort of 'real world' things I was interested in.

So is it that if a mast went down the voice users would likely (be)
switch(ed) to a different one but the data (only) users couldn't /
wouldn't? I'm thinking in urban areas where there is likely to be
reasonable coverage via multiple masts etc?

>
> The problem is that they cannot guarantee a good signal everywhere so
> they exploit that as a loophole and guarantee their services nowhere.

Understood.

> Don't take my word, have a look at all their user support forums.
>

No, I can believe it and why I was asking here. As you say, if you are
offering something that is fundamentality somewhat indeterminate
('airwaves') then I can see it would be more difficult to pin the SP
down in the event of supply issues.

In contrast to the supply being sent over some bits of wire or glass. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 09/08/2022 06:52, Tweed wrote:
<snip>

>
> It is a good point well made. Last year our local Vodafone mast went far
> faulty for 5 months. It radiated a strong 4G signal and allowed mobiles to
> attach. However all data (including voice) went to /dev/null. It took O2
> down with it as well.
>

So in that case did that mean that those users affected simply couldn't
get any service or that they likely got a less stable service from a
more distant mast(s)?

I just wondering how say Voda would deal with all their customers that
were affected? I mean, if they were on contracts, would they be able to
get discounts / rebates?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 08/08/2022 16:20, Woody wrote:

<snip>

> Also have a look to see if Cityfibre have anything in your area. They
> are outside my house so available and carry TalkTalk, Sky, VF and Zen. I
> am at the moment paying £36/m for 50Mb BB and phone (which we never use
> as we have a BT line.) I can have FTTP from Zen over Cityfibre running
> 145Mb for £29.95/m or 300Mb for £32.99/m. Phone costs an additional £7/m.

I just did a check with Zen over Cityfibre and it suggested:

9-15 Mbps Estimated Download

0.9 Mbps
Estimated Upload
5 Mbps
Minimum Guaranteed Download

£32.99 /month £29.99 set-up fee

For our daughter on ADSL / Plusnet, *every time* she is suffering with
poor internet access via her wired BB she turns on her mobile data and
*every time* (so far anyway) she is then able to do what she wants. Not
that means it *will* always be that way of course but statistically ... ?

Cheers, T i m

[Chris]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>
> VM are currently charging me ~£45 for just BB at probably 100Mb/s

This is your main problem. You can get BB for about half that.

The times that I've had to resort to mobile data for work, it's never been
reliable enough. I would stick with wired if you want to have reliability.

> according to my FritzBox router I downloaded 223,991MB last month
> (9,144MB uploaded).

That's a lot of usage for mobile. You'll need an unlimited deal to give you
that amount data.

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 8 August 2022 at 12:39:09 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
> I've been with VM since it took over NTL and with them from when they
> took over Cable-Tel and apart from the once where I got BB free for a
> year, the price keeps climbing to a point where I really should look for
> alternatives. Whilst there I may (then) also dump the BT line that I'm
> paying for but rarely using and am not sure would be good enough to
> support and ADSL BB service in any case (line noise for years).

Maybe, but with FTTC there is only the line between you and the cabinet for BB.

>
> I recently picked up a Smarty Data only SIM (unlimited, £18/m rolling)
> and an unlocked HUAWEI B311 router that worked ok for the couple of days
> I had it here. Watched a film on Netflix via a NowTV HD stick with no
> buffering but one complete dropout. Strangely though I was often getting
> upload speeds double of that of download (though the router or a 4G USB
> dongle)?

Not unusual. ADSL exploits the preponderance of download over upload resulting in the former being much faster than the latter.

>
> Daughter then borrowed the Router for a couple of days and is likely go
> that way herself (she's already with Smarty for her phone) as her
> Plusnet / ADSL service has never been very good.
>
> The router is now under test in a student house in Brighton and subject
> to it being a viable solution for them, them either sticking with that
> router and getting their own SIM with Smarty or going with someone /
> thing else.
>
> So the questions are, can mobile BB actually be a real world replacement
> for a cable (over fibre optic maybe), given a fighting chance (distance
> to local mast etc) and if so, would it be worth going for something 5G
> ready now (when I don't think the 5G service is available indoors at any
> of the locations mentioned yet) or would 4G(+) likely to be the best vfm
> (even on an unlimited 5G SIM) right now and then maybe upgrade later?

Yes implemented 4G modem here in Manchester for business whose ADSL was pitifully slow. Reasonable, if variable data rate on Three. Mast in clear line of site from aerial and about 300m away.

>
> I might be tempted to go for the Three 5G mobile router monthly /
> unlimited deal as it's still way cheaper than what I'm paying for phone
> / BB now plus you get the use of £200+ worth of router. If that works I
> might then buy one and go Smarty?

You won't get any speed advantage using 5G [yet] as MMwave is not implement in the UK, and UK mobiles do not have it in.
OTOH 5G does allow more concurrency so you are less likely to get throttled at busy times just because the airwaves are "full".

>
> I appreciate much of this is 'YMMV' but if people have successfully
> switched to mobile BB then at least I know there aren't any 'gotchas',
> like it's ok for streaming films but not for video conferencing because
> of high latency etc or that uptime might not be as good as a bounded
> solution?

Streams recorded content OK, as your end can buffer ahead.

Not used it for Zoom or live stream, so can't say, however you can just use a phone on its own (which does work).

OTOH 4k live stream over BB (40 - 50Mbps) sometimes falters, but which end is responsible is hard to say,

Three SIM invoved gets fairly heavy daytime usage, but unlikely to trip over any fair usage issues. Been in a couple of years now without complaint from 3.
Despite Three's other gotcha's (roaming rip off, 321 cancelled) no hint of throttling or complaints.

>
> Cheers, T i m

[Java Jive]

On 09/08/2022 15:14, Chris wrote:
>
> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>> VM are currently charging me ~£45 for just BB at probably 100Mb/s
>
> This is your main problem. You can get BB for about half that.

You can get a fairly decent unlimited mobile service for half that as well:

https://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/Plans_for_phones

> The times that I've had to resort to mobile data for work, it's never been
> reliable enough. I would stick with wired if you want to have reliability.

Can't agree with that and other similar criticisms in the thread.
Around here, rural Sutherland, mobile is far more reliable and gives far
better speeds than ADSL, for example, now, 6pm, is around peak usage
time when you will get the lowest speeds:

Latency 78 ms
Download 7.6 Mbps
Upload 1.7 Mbps

https://broadbandtest.which.co.uk/

That's about 5 to 7 times what I could ever get via ADSL over my
landline, which is why I discontinued it some years ago, and in the
middle of the night I can get 15-20 Mbps down.

>> according to my FritzBox router I downloaded 223,991MB last month
>> (9,144MB uploaded).
>
> That's a lot of usage for mobile. You'll need an unlimited deal to give you
> that amount data.

See the deals linked above.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[Tweed]

Wherever the fault lay, it affected that one site only. Moving into the
coverage of any adjacent site resumed communications. I had a very
protracted set of interactions with Vodafone, with me having to prove that
every other adjacent site was working, as they insisted their remote
diagnostics was showing everything was working.

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

You couldn’t get service from other masts, as the radio link between mast
and handset was working and allowing the handset to attach. It was just
impossible to move any data. The only way to use the phone was to force it
to use 3G, which did work from that mast.

It took me weeks to convince Vodafone that there was a fault and then it
took them months to fix it. Eventually they credited me with £80, but I’d
rather had done without the hassle.

Even the second line tech support have no access to the engineering teams
(who don’t appear to work for Vodafone anymore).

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

Those figures cannot be for a Cityfibre connection, which is fibre to the
home. The numbers look more like those for ADSL over copper.

[Tweed]

So the 150 MBits/sec both up and down on 5G Vodafone at Newcastle railway
station using an iPhone are something I imagined?

[Woody]

To get FTTP figures from Zen your house has to have Cityfibre passing
outside and they have to be selling in your area.

To get to the real figures you have to in effect apply for the service,
<then> the first thing you get are the download options and prices
before you commit yourself in any way.

I agree, the figures Tim has given above are for ADSL. The prices I
quoted are definitely FTTP, save that the Zen website is wrong. It shows
upload speed as 14-18% of download speed where another on this group has
queried Zen who confirm the upload is reciprocal.

[Martin Brown]

On 08/08/2022 16:20, Woody wrote:

+1

But you do have to look like you mean it and have done your homework as
to where you are going to go and at what price performance point.

> Also have a look to see if Cityfibre have anything in your area. They
> are outside my house so available and carry TalkTalk, Sky, VF and Zen. I
> am at the moment paying £36/m for 50Mb BB and phone (which we never use
> as we have a BT line.) I can have FTTP from Zen over Cityfibre running
> 145Mb for £29.95/m or 300Mb for £32.99/m. Phone costs an additional £7/m.

Suitable haggling will get the full fibre nominal 100M + phone deal out
of BT for about £30 all inclusive. Start slower than you actually want
and grudgingly allow them to up sell you to a faster service.

>
> The one thing that many people overlook when thinking of leaving VM is
> the reliability of their service. In 22 years we have had four outages,
> the longest of three days when a drunk piled his car into the streetcab
> at the top of our road! Can mi-fi beat that?

It is a *very* useful fall back when the fixed line goes down though.
The mobile network still works for a short while with no mains power. I
find that I need the USB dongle on a longer USB extender to get the
thing away from the hash of RF noise that the fast laptop makes.

The simplest cut price model is a Mifi pebble and a data SIM to use when
you need additional capacity away from home (beyond what is on your
phone contract). Snag with using mobile data regularly and from home is
that you will find it may be in contention with other users at peak
times. So many people stream HD TV to their mobile phones these days!

Mifi pebbles that accept external antennas are the best choice since
then you can ensure that the thing has more than enough signal even in
an area with poor signal quality indoors.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Chris]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 09/08/2022 15:14, Chris wrote:
>>
>> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> VM are currently charging me ~£45 for just BB at probably 100Mb/s
>>
>> This is your main problem. You can get BB for about half that.
>
> You can get a fairly decent unlimited mobile service for half that as well:
>
> https://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/Plans_for_phones
>
>> The times that I've had to resort to mobile data for work, it's never been
>> reliable enough. I would stick with wired if you want to have reliability.
>
> Can't agree with that and other similar criticisms in the thread.
> Around here, rural Sutherland

That's a very atypical example.

> mobile is far more reliable and gives far
> better speeds than ADSL, for example, now, 6pm, is around peak usage
> time when you will get the lowest speeds:
>
> Latency 78 ms
> Download 7.6 Mbps
> Upload 1.7 Mbps
>
> https://broadbandtest.which.co.uk/
>
> That's about 5 to 7 times what I could ever get via ADSL over my
> landline, which is why I discontinued it some years ago

Unsurprisingly as you're probably many miles from the nearest exchange.

[Java Jive]

On 09/08/2022 22:09, Chris wrote:

>
> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> That's about 5 to 7 times what I could ever get via ADSL over my
>> landline, which is why I discontinued it some years ago
>
> Unsurprisingly as you're probably many miles from the nearest exchange.

It shows that mobile broadband can be an affordable and workable
solution, which is what the OP was asking.

[T i m]

On 09/08/2022 18:24, Tweed wrote:
> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 09/08/2022 06:52, Tweed wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> It is a good point well made. Last year our local Vodafone mast went far
>>> faulty for 5 months. It radiated a strong 4G signal and allowed mobiles to
>>> attach. However all data (including voice) went to /dev/null. It took O2
>>> down with it as well.
>>>
>>
>> So in that case did that mean that those users affected simply couldn't
>> get any service or that they likely got a less stable service from a
>> more distant mast(s)?
>>
>> I just wondering how say Voda would deal with all their customers that
>> were affected? I mean, if they were on contracts, would they be able to
>> get discounts / rebates?
>>
>> Cheers, T i m
>>
>
> You couldn’t get service from other masts, as the radio link between mast
> and handset was working and allowing the handset to attach.

Ah.

> It was just
> impossible to move any data. The only way to use the phone was to force it
> to use 3G, which did work from that mast.

Makes sense.

>
> It took me weeks to convince Vodafone that there was a fault and then it
> took them months to fix it.

I find that really strange. Ok, from being in 'IT Support' most my life
means I have seen all sorts of strange scenarios but would generally
(back then) be able to rattle someones cage hard enough to get
*something* moving.

Customer: 'BT say they have tested the line and say it's ok so you need
to send an engineer out'.

Me: We can certainly send an engineer out but may I advise you that
because I'm not satisfied the fault is with us and the information you
just gave me would suggest the fault still lies with BT, if the fault
isn't with us we may have to charge you for the visit. May I suggest you
give BT another call and ask them to double check?'.

2 hours later ...

Customer: "Hey Tim, you haven't sent an engineer out yet have you as I
rang BT again and it's all just started working again ...' ;-)

> Eventually they credited me with £80, but I’d
> rather had done without the hassle.

No, quite, how frustrating. ;-(

>
> Even the second line tech support have no access to the engineering teams
> (who don’t appear to work for Vodafone anymore).
>

Bizarre.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 09/08/2022 15:17, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 8 August 2022 at 12:39:09 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
>> I've been with VM since it took over NTL and with them from when they
>> took over Cable-Tel and apart from the once where I got BB free for a
>> year, the price keeps climbing to a point where I really should look for
>> alternatives. Whilst there I may (then) also dump the BT line that I'm
>> paying for but rarely using and am not sure would be good enough to
>> support and ADSL BB service in any case (line noise for years).
>
> Maybe, but with FTTC there is only the line between you and the cabinet for BB.

Understood, but unfortunately that includes a pole, a couple of
junctions and a quantity of ally cable ... ;-(

>
>>
>> I recently picked up a Smarty Data only SIM (unlimited, £18/m rolling)
>> and an unlocked HUAWEI B311 router that worked ok for the couple of days
>> I had it here. Watched a film on Netflix via a NowTV HD stick with no
>> buffering but one complete dropout. Strangely though I was often getting
>> upload speeds double of that of download (though the router or a 4G USB
>> dongle)?
>
> Not unusual. ADSL exploits the preponderance of download over upload resulting in the former being much faster than the latter.

Sorry, this was over the mobile BB and upload *faster* than download
(bizarre right and why I mentioned it).

I don't know if that can happen if the download load on the local mast
is already high?

>
>>
>> Daughter then borrowed the Router for a couple of days and is likely go
>> that way herself (she's already with Smarty for her phone) as her
>> Plusnet / ADSL service has never been very good.
>>
>> The router is now under test in a student house in Brighton and subject
>> to it being a viable solution for them, them either sticking with that
>> router and getting their own SIM with Smarty or going with someone /
>> thing else.
>>
>> So the questions are, can mobile BB actually be a real world replacement
>> for a cable (over fibre optic maybe), given a fighting chance (distance
>> to local mast etc) and if so, would it be worth going for something 5G
>> ready now (when I don't think the 5G service is available indoors at any
>> of the locations mentioned yet) or would 4G(+) likely to be the best vfm
>> (even on an unlimited 5G SIM) right now and then maybe upgrade later?
>
> Yes implemented 4G modem here in Manchester for business whose ADSL was pitifully slow. Reasonable, if variable data rate on Three. Mast in clear line of site from aerial and about 300m away.

Interesting, thanks.

>
>>
>> I might be tempted to go for the Three 5G mobile router monthly /
>> unlimited deal as it's still way cheaper than what I'm paying for phone
>> / BB now plus you get the use of £200+ worth of router. If that works I
>> might then buy one and go Smarty?
>
> You won't get any speed advantage using 5G [yet] as MMwave is not implement in the UK, and UK mobiles do not have it in.

Ah, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of (not sure how
'established' 5G was, even where it has been available for a while etc).

> OTOH 5G does allow more concurrency so you are less likely to get throttled at busy times just because the airwaves are "full".

Understood.

>
>>
>> I appreciate much of this is 'YMMV' but if people have successfully
>> switched to mobile BB then at least I know there aren't any 'gotchas',
>> like it's ok for streaming films but not for video conferencing because
>> of high latency etc or that uptime might not be as good as a bounded
>> solution?
>
> Streams recorded content OK, as your end can buffer ahead.

Yeah.

>
> Not used it for Zoom or live stream, so can't say, however you can just use a phone on its own (which does work).

Sure and fine for me as I have unlimited data but daughter and the (4)
'students' do / may not.

>
> OTOH 4k live stream over BB (40 - 50Mbps) sometimes falters, but which end is responsible is hard to say,

Understood.

>
> Three SIM invoved gets fairly heavy daytime usage, but unlikely to trip over any fair usage issues. Been in a couple of years now without complaint from 3.

That's a good sign.

> Despite Three's other gotcha's (roaming rip off, 321 cancelled) no hint of throttling or complaints.

Excellent. ;-)

Niece reported that with the three of them online this evening it was
'slow' (Smarty, basic 4G router) yet I was on her Laptop via Teamviewer
this morning checking for firmware upgrades on her Powerline units and
showing her other BB choices / options whilst talking to her over
Whatsapp and it was mostly as good as 'being there'. So I suggested that
she creates a paper log of the speed test results over the day and
suggested the others also tried the same from their phones, especially
if on 'other' networks (Data allowances accepting etc).

So it's quite possible that three of them may assume they all should be
able to stream stuff over the same basic setup and at the busy time in
the evening, something they may not be able to do over ADSL (there) either.

They will only be in the house for a year and that limits any supplier
that doesn't offer a 12 month contract. If niece goes 5G for them (they
contribute etc) she can take it with her to wherever she ends up next
(As long as it has 4G and hopefully 5G by then)?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 09/08/2022 18:34, Tweed wrote:
> notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>
>> You won't get any speed advantage using 5G [yet] as MMwave is not
>> implement in the UK, and UK mobiles do not have it in.
>
> So the 150 MBits/sec both up and down on 5G Vodafone at Newcastle railway
> station using an iPhone are something I imagined?
>

Aren't they the theoretical maximum speeds for straight 4G, 300 for 4G+
or summat? <shrug>

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

No, sure, I did the test from the Zen site and that's all it gave me so
maybe we don't have fibre here yet?

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

Regardless of the theoretical results, my highest 4G download speed in the
UK has been around 80Mbits/sec. I did get just over 100 in Iceland a few
years back. I suspect the 150 at Newcastle on 5G was more down to few
others being around at the time who had 5G handsets, thus having
effectively a private cell.

In my experience, Vodafone sites on 4G fall into two broad types - old ones
that top out at around 10 MBits/sec and upgraded ones that can get to about
80 but usually hang around at 50.

I have installed a Vodafone MiFi device for a colleague to work from home
who lives in a rural area. Even after a subsidised FTTC cabinet was
installed speeds were very low due to a very long local loop to the
cabinet. She was unable to conduct video calls. The Vodafone link works
very well and she can now reliably conduct video Teams calls.

Cellular links are very much a shared medium and performance is highly
dependent on whoever else is using the site, and this can be variable over
short and long time scales.

If I were to rank home broadband technologies, assuming I had access to all
of them, (unlikely!) I think it would go like this:

FTTH via Cityfibre (symmetric up and download speeds)
FTTH via Open Reach infrastructure (slower upload speeds)
Virgin Media cable DOCIS (slower upload speeds, higher jitter than FTTH,
local segment shared)
FTTC but only if you live reasonably near to the cabinet
Mobile cellular connection (performance too undefined)
ADSL (slow)

I’m on VM cable, as neither form of FTTH has reached me yet.

At work we are on 100Gbit to the site and 1Gbit to the desktop. At that
point you simply forget about the network being a bottleneck.

[Tweed]

It’s a failing of many ISP checker sites that they don’t tell you the
technology involved. Even the AAISP site has become dumbed down from what
it was.

[T i m]

On 10/08/2022 07:37, Tweed wrote:

<snip>

>> No, sure, I did the test from the Zen site and that's all it gave me so
>> maybe we don't have fibre here yet?
>>
>

> It’s a failing of many ISP checker sites that they don’t tell you the
> technology involved. Even the AAISP site has become dumbed down from what
> it was.
>

FWIW the Zen checker gave me:

"Were you hoping for faster speeds?

Pre-register now to find out when you're full fibre ready..."

Cheers, T i m

[Martin Brown]

Optimist! Tetra never worked properly but was still deployed.
They call it Airwave these days.

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252512228/Police-Digital-Service-offers-50m-contact-for-TETRA-products-and-services

Now that mobile phones are digital and can be hard encrypted I'm not at
all convinced that it is value for money (or ever was).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[T i m]

On 10/08/2022 07:35, Tweed wrote:

<snip>

> Regardless of the theoretical results, my highest 4G download speed in the
> UK has been around 80Mbits/sec.

OOI I just ran the Ookla speedtest from my SGS7 via WiFi to my SGS4 and
to 3 (Smarty) and saw 20Mb/s down and 19.1Mb/s up.

FWIW my SGS7 directly onto EE 4G LTE gave a download of 37Mb/s and
upload of .98Mb/s.

> I did get just over 100 in Iceland a few
> years back. I suspect the 150 at Newcastle on 5G was more down to few
> others being around at the time who had 5G handsets, thus having
> effectively a private cell.

;-)

>
> In my experience, Vodafone sites on 4G fall into two broad types - old ones
> that top out at around 10 MBits/sec and upgraded ones that can get to about
> 80 but usually hang around at 50.

Ok, interesting.

>
> I have installed a Vodafone MiFi device for a colleague to work from home
> who lives in a rural area. Even after a subsidised FTTC cabinet was
> installed speeds were very low due to a very long local loop to the
> cabinet. She was unable to conduct video calls. The Vodafone link works
> very well and she can now reliably conduct video Teams calls.

Yeah, that was a similar experience for our daughter (mobile MM V ADSL).

>
> Cellular links are very much a shared medium and performance is highly
> dependent on whoever else is using the site, and this can be variable over
> short and long time scales.

And I'm guessing there is no stated contention ratio other than the
maximium concurrent connections any node is willing to carry?

>
> If I were to rank home broadband technologies, assuming I had access to all
> of them, (unlikely!) I think it would go like this:
>
> FTTH via Cityfibre (symmetric up and download speeds)
> FTTH via Open Reach infrastructure (slower upload speeds)
> Virgin Media cable DOCIS (slower upload speeds, higher jitter than FTTH,
> local segment shared)

My VM cabinet is just across the road.

> FTTC but only if you live reasonably near to the cabinet

I'm not sure where the nearest BT cabinet is (I'll keep a look out for
it). Would there be one if the exchange is actually at the top of the
road (~500m away) or could it be near that (I think I have seen a fairly
large one at the top of the road now I think of it) so my LL is likely
to be about the same FTCC or otherwise?

> Mobile cellular connection (performance too undefined)

Noted and seen.

> ADSL (slow)

The only regular ADSL service (BT) I've ever used is round the corner at
my Mums and shes only ~800m from the same exchange as the cable might
run. I can't remember ever running a speedtest there but I do know we
have been though a few routers over the years (whilst I've been using
the same FritzBox Fon WAN for years and years) and have had to reboot
all of them now and again to regain functioning BB. I don't ever
remember it being particular fast or slow when it was working (no issues
streaming HD via a NowTV stick etc).

>
> I’m on VM cable, as neither form of FTTH has reached me yet.

I wonder if that might be partly why? Too much obvious competition for
anyone wanting high speed Internet?

>
> At work we are on 100Gbit to the site and 1Gbit to the desktop. At that
> point you simply forget about the network being a bottleneck.

I bet! ;-)

I feel I should invest in a 'reasonable' 4G+ router that can handle the
existing BB as a fallback device, have a Gb switch built in (I already
have a router acting as an AP / switch where the router might stand),
have the option for external aerials (FWIW, given our proximity to the
local mast) and potentially a VOIP port, if I either just use one of the
two local number lines I have from Sipgate via my FritzBox router and /
or if I could have my existing landline number ported over to a VOIP
service so I can retain access to that number for those people who may
not have my mobile yet (like the doctors or whoever).

Also a couple of older mates (and my Mum) often ring me on my LL and I
generally offer to ring them back on my mobile to reduce their costs and
because the LL is still often very noisy (and why I'd be keen to dump it).

Cheers, T i m

[Woody]

Per the FTTC cabinet, first go to broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com and
enter your phone number. This will show you all sorts of data about your
line, but across the top of the box it will show you which cabinet you
are connected to. Then go to Angus' superb site magsys.co.uk, select
Code Look and enter your number. It will come up with the exchange name.
Click on that name and an enlarged sheet of exchange data comes up. At
the top it says "All nn fibre cabinets" which if you click on will give
you a map with the cabinets marked. Find yours - it may not be where you
expect it to be and neither will the map necessarily be correct. For
instance mine is shown as about 200yds or so down our road where in fact
it is about 100yds down an avenue which in turn is about 50yds farther
than where the maps indicates the cab to be. I know it is my cab as it
has the number printed on the side!

[Martin Brown]

On 09/08/2022 22:38, Java Jive wrote:
> On 09/08/2022 22:09, Chris wrote:
>>
>> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> That's about 5 to 7 times what I could ever get via ADSL over my
>>> landline, which is why I discontinued it some years ago
>>
>> Unsurprisingly as you're probably many miles from the nearest exchange.
>
> It shows that mobile broadband can be an affordable and workable
> solution, which is what the OP was asking.
>

It certainly can be, but you do need to do your homework and determine
if it will work reliably for you in your location.

Lowest cost way to try it out is to use your existing mobile phone data
in tethering mode and/or a mifi pebble 4g minimum. Three's prepaid data
only 3Gb/12GB/24GB SIMs are another option - EE do bigger ones.

I know people round my area who have given up on landline for much the
same reason. Microwave link is the most popular alternative here but now
that full fibre is in the village that may change. Setup costs are high
and needs a clear line of sight but after that the monthly fees are
similar but with about 10x the speed of ADSL2+ on our manky copper.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 09/08/2022 09:16, T i m wrote:
> On 08/08/2022 22:05, MikeS wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The key and often forgotten issue with using mobile broadband at home
>> is reliability. Its fine while its working.
>>
>> I have had BT phone and broadband for years with no problems. During
>> that time I also used (company supplied) mobile broadband dongles for
>> 3, O2, Vodafone and EE at home. Each was fine until their local mast
>> went down. Except with 3 it then took weeks and with EE months to get
>> it fixed. This is in a major suburban area, not out in the wilds
>> somewhere.
>
> Thanks. These are the sort of 'real world' things I was interested in.
>
> So is it that if a mast went down the voice users would likely (be)
> switch(ed) to a different one but the data (only) users couldn't /
> wouldn't? I'm thinking in urban areas where there is likely to be
> reasonable coverage via multiple masts etc?

Unless you are in a very strong signal area you probably want a device
that accepts one or more external high gain antennas so that you have
more than enough signal to work at the nodes full speed.

TBH I have never had to use more than one yagi to get full speed.
Pointing is a bit tetchy - I use a tripod with pan tilt head.

>> The problem is that they cannot guarantee a good signal everywhere so
>> they exploit that as a loophole and guarantee their services nowhere.
>
> Understood.
>
>> Don't take my word, have a look at all their user support forums.
>>
>
> No, I can believe it and why I was asking here. As you say, if you are
> offering something that is fundamentality somewhat indeterminate
> ('airwaves') then I can see it would be more difficult to pin the SP
> down in the event of supply issues.
>
> In contrast to the supply being sent over some bits of wire or glass. ;-)

The only way to be sure is to try it out and see what QOS is actually
like where you are. I have seen everything from "no signal" to 3 bars
and maximum throughput with a SIM dongle in a portable.

My own fast portable the screening isn't great and the dongle has to be
on a 1m extension cable not to be blinded by the RF noise from the PC.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 10 August 2022 at 00:50:47 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
> On 09/08/2022 15:17, notya...@gmail.com wrote:

SNIP

> >
> > Maybe, but with FTTC there is only the line between you and the cabinet for BB.
> Understood, but unfortunately that includes a pole, a couple of
> junctions and a quantity of ally cable ... ;-(

Ditto here (no pole, but waterlogged corroded underground ally wires) - 40-50Mbps down, 10 up.

> >
> >>
> >> I recently picked up a Smarty Data only SIM (unlimited, £18/m rolling)
> >> and an unlocked HUAWEI B311 router that worked ok for the couple of days
> >> I had it here. Watched a film on Netflix via a NowTV HD stick with no
> >> buffering but one complete dropout. Strangely though I was often getting
> >> upload speeds double of that of download (though the router or a 4G USB
> >> dongle)?
> >
> > Not unusual. ADSL exploits the preponderance of download over upload resulting in the former being much faster than the latter.
> Sorry, this was over the mobile BB and upload *faster* than download
> (bizarre right and why I mentioned it).
>
> I don't know if that can happen if the download load on the local mast
> is already high?

This happens (and observed) because the bandwidth for download is hared by many users making a lot of use of it, whereas the identicle upload isn't. We have seen some silly figured (hundreds of Mbps up) but the modem is only 4G.

> >
> >>
SNIP

> > Yes implemented 4G modem here in Manchester for business whose ADSL was pitifully slow. Reasonable, if variable data rate on Three. Mast in clear line of site from aerial and about 300m away.
> Interesting, thanks.
> >
> >>
> >> I might be tempted to go for the Three 5G mobile router monthly /
> >> unlimited deal as it's still way cheaper than what I'm paying for phone
> >> / BB now plus you get the use of £200+ worth of router. If that works I
> >> might then buy one and go Smarty?
> >
> > You won't get any speed advantage using 5G [yet] as MMwave is not implement in the UK, and UK mobiles do not have it in.
> Ah, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of (not sure how
> 'established' 5G was, even where it has been available for a while etc).

5G is becoming available, but coverage very patchy at present even in major cities.

IMO their most sensible and probably cheapest option is for each to beef up the data allowance on their mobiles and use them as mobile hot spots. Uswitch wlll help them choose.

[Abandoned_Trolley]

>
> IMO their most sensible and probably cheapest option is for each to beef up the data allowance on their mobiles and use them as mobile hot spots. Uswitch wlll help them choose.

Although some operators will apply restictions for those users who
tether if they are on a "unlimited" tariff.


--
random signature text inserted here

[T i m]

On 10/08/2022 13:04, Martin Brown wrote:

<snip>

> Unless you are in a very strong signal area you probably want a device
> that accepts one or more external high gain antennas so that you have
> more than enough signal to work at the nodes full speed.

Yeah, the little 4G router I bought recently has the option for one
external antenna and I have watched some videos covering all different
types. I do have a small Yagi that I have tried on said router but 1)
I'm not sure it was the right frequency band (it may have been a 'Wifi'
aerial) and 2) when tested it didn't seem to work as well as the
internal (but I didn't spend much time playing with it).

I believe I'm around 500m from the nearest mast and possibly
line-of-sight if I was to put the aerial outside the window.

>
> TBH I have never had to use more than one yagi to get full speed.
> Pointing is a bit tetchy - I use a tripod with pan tilt head.

This was only 5 element so I'm not sure it would have been *that*
directional? I mean, I had it sitting horizontal and the mast was on the
top of the shopping centre so possibly well within the forward lobe in
any case?

>
>>> The problem is that they cannot guarantee a good signal everywhere so
>>> they exploit that as a loophole and guarantee their services nowhere.
>>
>> Understood.
>>
>>> Don't take my word, have a look at all their user support forums.
>>>
>>
>> No, I can believe it and why I was asking here. As you say, if you are
>> offering something that is fundamentality somewhat indeterminate
>> ('airwaves') then I can see it would be more difficult to pin the SP
>> down in the event of supply issues.
>>
>> In contrast to the supply being sent over some bits of wire or glass. ;-)
>
> The only way to be sure is to try it out and see what QOS is actually
> like where you are.

Can you give me a pointer re where best to look for the QOS value. I
have an app called 'Phone Signal' that shows a lot but not QOS (that
I've spotted). Could I see it on the built in stuff a Samsung phone
somewhere for example? I've found signal strength (-114dBm, 26 asu?).

> I have seen everything from "no signal" to 3 bars
> and maximum throughput with a SIM dongle in a portable.

The little 4G router I had (and is now in Brighton) didn't have a
external signal strength meter and they are handy for unit orientation
and signal strength.

>
> My own fast portable the screening isn't great and the dongle has to be
> on a 1m extension cable not to be blinded by the RF noise from the PC.
>

Yeah, I run the Zigbee USB coordinator on my Home Assistant home
automation solution on an extension lead for similar reasons.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 10/08/2022 11:37, Woody wrote:
<snip>

> Per the FTTC cabinet, first go to broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com and
> enter your phone number. This will show you all sorts of data about your
> line, but across the top of the box it will show you which cabinet you
> are connected to.

'Cabinet 1'. ;-)

> Then go to Angus' superb site magsys.co.uk, select
> Code Look and enter your number. It will come up with the exchange name.
> Click on that name and an enlarged sheet of exchange data comes up. At
> the top it says "All nn fibre cabinets" which if you click on will give
> you a map with the cabinets marked.

Noted, again, interesting thanks.

> Find yours - it may not be where you
> expect it to be and neither will the map necessarily be correct.

I think I have found it on the map and it's where I thought it might be
(at the top of the road in line with the local exchange).

349m ADSL ADSL2+ FTTC Available from 29th June 2010 100%
area NGA, 100% area up to 1GB

> For
> instance mine is shown as about 200yds or so down our road where in fact
> it is about 100yds down an avenue which in turn is about 50yds farther
> than where the maps indicates the cab to be. I know it is my cab as it
> has the number printed on the side!
>

It says 'Cabinet P1' on the map though so assuming it's the same thing
as 'Cabinet 1' and should also say similar on the cabinet somewhere if
I've found the right one? We should be walking past it tomorrow so can
check.

If it is the right one it also confirms my thoughts in that the (crappy
/ ally) LL would probably be twice the distance of the length of any
fibre between that cabinet and the exchange.

It also says on that site that the exchange offers: ADSL2+ and 'FTTC,
FTTP, FoD, some with 18/2M product'.

Cheers, T i m

[Woody]

To get more exchange info go to samknows.com, scroll to the very bttom
of the page and click on UK Broadband availability.
Click on Exchange search. You already know the name of your exchange so
type it in the box and another table will appear that shows the code for
your exchange. Click on the (underlined) exchange name and you will get
a page with lots of info about your exchange and what facilities it an
handle.

[T i m]

On 11/08/2022 21:32, Woody wrote:
<snip>

> To get more exchange info go to samknows.com, scroll to the very bttom
> of the page and click on UK Broadband availability.
> Click on Exchange search. You already know the name of your exchange so
> type it in the box and another table will appear that shows the code for
> your exchange. Click on the (underlined) exchange name and you will get
> a page with lots of info about your exchange and what facilities it an
> handle.
>
>

Cool (and thanks again). ;-)

BT Wholesale information
ADSL status: Enabled as of 31/03/2000
ADSL Max status:Enabled as of 31/03/2006
SDSL status: Enabled as of 05/06/2005
21CN WBC status:Enabled
FTTC status: Available in some areas
FTTP status: Not available


LLU operator presence
Sky: Enabled
TalkTalk (CPW): Enabled
Vodafone: Enabled as of 13/05/2006

So, I'm still stuck with the (shitty) LL, stuck with VM or could see if
4/5G MBB could be an alternative.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 11/08/2022 13:54, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 10 August 2022 at 00:50:47 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
>> On 09/08/2022 15:17, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> SNIP
>>>
>>> Maybe, but with FTTC there is only the line between you and the cabinet for BB.
>> Understood, but unfortunately that includes a pole, a couple of
>> junctions and a quantity of ally cable ... ;-(
>
> Ditto here (no pole, but waterlogged corroded underground ally wires) - 40-50Mbps down, 10 up.

I was at home one day and chatting to a mate on the LL and the call was
cut (then no dialtone). I happened to look outside and saw a rend and
white striped tent up over my local BT manhole. I wandered over and
asked if they had intentionally cut my line for any (good / engineering)
reason and he replied 'No, I've come here to fix a fault but probably
put another load on (corroded ally cables).' ;-(
>
<snip>

>> Sorry, this was over the mobile BB and upload *faster* than download
>> (bizarre right and why I mentioned it).
>>
>> I don't know if that can happen if the download load on the local mast
>> is already high?
>
> This happens (and observed) because the bandwidth for download is hared by many users making a lot of use of it, whereas the identicle upload isn't. We have seen some silly figured (hundreds of Mbps up) but the modem is only 4G.

Ah good, sorta as I imagined it might be plus I'm not the only one
seeing it. ;-)

>>> You won't get any speed advantage using 5G [yet] as MMwave is not implement in the UK, and UK mobiles do not have it in.
>> Ah, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of (not sure how
>> 'established' 5G was, even where it has been available for a while etc).
>
> 5G is becoming available, but coverage very patchy at present even in major cities.

Ok thanks.
>

<snip>

>> Niece reported that with the three of them online this evening it was
>> 'slow' (Smarty, basic 4G router) yet I was on her Laptop via Teamviewer
>> this morning checking for firmware upgrades on her Powerline units and
>> showing her other BB choices / options whilst talking to her over
>> Whatsapp and it was mostly as good as 'being there'. So I suggested that
>> she creates a paper log of the speed test results over the day and
>> suggested the others also tried the same from their phones, especially
>> if on 'other' networks (Data allowances accepting etc).
>>

<snip>

> IMO their most sensible and probably cheapest option is for each to beef up the data allowance on their mobiles and use them as mobile hot spots. Uswitch wlll help them choose.

Hmm, that might be like herding cats from what niece has observed / said
so far. ;-(

In a very informal sense it seems that because of several reasons, she's
ended up the one responsible (in a very lose sense) for providing
whatever ends up equating to their communal broadband and as yet we have
no real idea of the situation (certainly re mobile phone plans /
finances etc) of the other housemates (they aren't even all present yet).

So I think she's working on the basis of 'best efforts' at best value
and in such a way that if she ends up with it herself (and they do their
own / another thing), it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Eg, She is likely to be in that area for a least a couple of years
(degree) but not necessarily in that house (over 12 months for sure) so
if there could be something (BB access) that works most of the time,
could serve the 4 of them most of the time, didn't require any long term
commitment (over a couple of months) and was a reasonable cost
(especially when /4) and could easily be relocated at any point, that
(for those reasons alone) was the best fit, even if it isn't technically
optimal for any of them 24/7?

So I think she's willing to spend a couple of hundred from her savings
on a 'quality' (technically and reliability), unlocked, 5G mobile BB
router, see how it fares on 3 (Smarty) and if it's not good, maybe try
the SIMS from the other housemates on another SP and then go with them
on some unlimited data contact if better on the grounds she can always
take it with her and would likely share it with others in that new place
etc.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 11/08/2022 14:08, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
>
>>
>> IMO  their most sensible and probably cheapest option is for each to
>> beef up the data allowance on their mobiles and use them as mobile hot
>> spots.  Uswitch wlll help them choose.
>
>
> Although some operators will apply restictions for those users who
> tether if they are on a "unlimited" tariff.
>

Whilst trying to help niece by checking for 'gotchas' with Smarty I was
pleased to see it state 'Unrestricted tethering in the UK' and via their
online chat (that results in a copy by email) that unlimited meant just
that and with no throttling etc 'No speed caps'.

Now, there probably are *some* 'reasonable use' thresholds, as was the
case when we first went with One2One on our Motorola M300's and had
unlimited free minutes at evenings and weekends and they then made it
more restricted.

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

I’d go with VM until FTTH turns up. I’ve lost track if you already have it.
If not it’s good value for new subscribers. £25/month for 18 months for
their 100 down 10 up service. (£29 for 200/20). It’s after the first 18
months that they attempt to crank the cost upwards.

[T i m]

On 12/08/2022 07:29, Tweed wrote:
<snip>

>> So, I'm still stuck with the (shitty) LL, stuck with VM or could see if
>> 4/5G MBB could be an alternative.
>>
>

> I’d go with VM until FTTH turns up. I’ve lost track if you already have it.

Yeah, it is complex because the mobile BB question actually covered 3
separate locations: ;-)

1) BB connection for 4 uni students for a year in a rented house.

2) Daughter (and now just partner) looking for something that offered a
better performing BB service than the one she receives over ADSL from
Plusnet. (The test she did with the mbb router / Smarty that's currently
with said students seemed to be that for her).

3) Me trying to save money on the VM cable service and the mostly unused
(and potentially unusable for data because of line noise) BT line. [1]

> If not it’s good value for new subscribers. £25/month for 18 months for
> their 100 down 10 up service. (£29 for 200/20). It’s after the first 18
> months that they attempt to crank the cost upwards.
>

And that's where we are with £44.?? / m for just BB on VM (just tested
as 22.44mb/s down, 1.44Mb/s up).

BT line costs us just the rental as we never make calls over it and
rarely even get calls on it (apart from 'Microsoft Support' telling me
my Windows is bad and I play them along until I tell them I'm running
Linux (I'm typically not) and they hang up). ;-).

I was going to ring VM to haggle but ideally only when I was really
ready to go because I had a viable alternative solution and have moved
as many of my important subscriptions off my VM emails and onto my own
domain. Didn't want to dump BT either if that could (with a clean-up of
the LL) give me some level of connectivity cheaper (than VM and
considering we are all already paying for it).

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

> On 12/08/2022 07:29, Tweed wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>> So, I'm still stuck with the (shitty) LL, stuck with VM or could see if
>>> 4/5G MBB could be an alternative.
>>>
>>
>> I’d go with VM until FTTH turns up. I’ve lost track if you already have it.
>
> Yeah, it is complex because the mobile BB question actually covered 3
> separate locations: ;-)
>
> 1) BB connection for 4 uni students for a year in a rented house.
>
> 2) Daughter (and now just partner) looking for something that offered a
> better performing BB service than the one she receives over ADSL from
> Plusnet. (The test she did with the mbb router / Smarty that's currently
> with said students seemed to be that for her).
>
> 3) Me trying to save money on the VM cable service and the mostly unused
> (and potentially unusable for data because of line noise) BT line. [1]
>
>> If not it’s good value for new subscribers. £25/month for 18 months for
>> their 100 down 10 up service. (£29 for 200/20). It’s after the first 18
>> months that they attempt to crank the cost upwards.
>>
>
> And that's where we are with £44.?? / m for just BB on VM (just tested
> as 22.44mb/s down, 1.44Mb/s up).
>

There’s something wrong if you are getting those speeds on VM cable, or are
you quoting VM mobile phone? (Unless you are quoting Mbytes/sec rather than
the more usual MBits/sec)

[T i m]

On 12/08/2022 11:16, Tweed wrote:
<snip>

>> And that's where we are with £44.?? / m for just BB on VM (just tested
>> as 22.44mb/s down, 1.44Mb/s up).
>>
> There’s something wrong if you are getting those speeds on VM cable, or are
> you quoting VM mobile phone? (Unless you are quoting Mbytes/sec rather than
> the more usual MBits/sec)
>

Speed test run on my PC over Ethernet via a 16 port Gb switch > Fritzbox
router > VM router in MoDem mode.

Just ran it (3x) again, 39.32 Mbps down, 1.43 Mbps up, according to the
Ookla speedtest running as an app on W10/64. (Similar or the wifes PC).
Task manager saw peak of 45Mbps on receive and 2Mbps on send when the
test was running.

Using: https://www.broadbandspeedchecker.co.uk on the web I get similar
results.

Funnily though, same test from a wireless laptop via an AP connected to
the same Ethernet switch showed 50 Mbps but we do get some fluctuation
anyway?

FWIW, I've never accepted a 'free' speed upgrade from VM for fear of
staring a new contract and / or giving them the opportunity to ramp the
price up.

I have no issues with the speed or reliability of the service, it's the
plain cost that I have an issue with.


Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

So are you paying £44/month for a legacy 50 Mbit service? I pay £39/month
for a 200 Mbit down/ 20 up, and thought that was getting a tad expensive.

[T i m]

On 12/08/2022 13:48, Tweed wrote:

<snip>

>> I have no issues with the speed or reliability of the service, it's the
>> plain cost that I have an issue with.
>>
>

> So are you paying £44/month for a legacy 50 Mbit service?

Well, spurred by your questions I just went online and onto my VM
account and it's suggesting I'm on an 'M100' plan?

> I pay £39/month
> for a 200 Mbit down/ 20 up, and thought that was getting a tad expensive.

;-(

My Fritz!Box Fon Wan 7140 VOIP router is getting quite old now and I'm
wondering if it's throttling my service at all?

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/hardware/reviews/old/59-fritzbox-fon-wlan-7140

It looks like the throughput could be throttled by the LAN/WAN ports
only being 10/100 but as long as the actual throughput of the router is
100Mb/s I assume I should still see higher than 40Mbps on the speed
tests on a wired PC?

It says it supports WiFi speeds of up to 125Mbps but that wouldn't
explain the laptop speed test being better than the wired as they both
rely on the WAN port to the MoDem?

Cheers, T i m

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

Switch your cable modem back into router mode (I’m assuming you have it in
modem mode) and attach your laptop to it with an Ethernet cable. Assuming
the laptop has a Gigabit port rather than a 100Mbit port you really ought
to see a solid 100 down 10 up on a speed test. That will then prove whether
or not VM are delivering you a decent service. If they are, any other
degradations in speed are down to the kit you hang off the cable modem.
Elderly WiFi protocols and the use of 2.4GHz rather than 5GHz WiFi are
usually to blame.

[T i m]

On 12/08/2022 14:36, Tweed wrote:
<snip>

>> It looks like the throughput could be throttled by the LAN/WAN ports
>> only being 10/100 but as long as the actual throughput of the router is
>> 100Mb/s I assume I should still see higher than 40Mbps on the speed
>> tests on a wired PC?
>>
>> It says it supports WiFi speeds of up to 125Mbps but that wouldn't
>> explain the laptop speed test being better than the wired as they both
>> rely on the WAN port to the MoDem?
>

> Switch your cable modem back into router mode (I’m assuming you have it in
> modem mode) and attach your laptop to it with an Ethernet cable.

I could leave it in modem mode couldn't I as it's likely to offer IP
addresses to whatever device is connected to the LAN port via DHCP from VM?

> Assuming
> the laptop has a Gigabit port rather than a 100Mbit port

It has, Intel Gb.

> you really ought
> to see a solid 100 down 10 up on a speed test.

Understood.

> That will then prove whether
> or not VM are delivering you a decent service.

As I mentioned, whilst 'of course' it would be nice to get what I'm
paying for, my issue is the other way round where I'd rather pay less
for what I'm seeing now. As long as it can stream some Netflix and
handle the odd Video conference (generally via the Portal), it really
doesn't matter to me how long it takes to download an OS image or
software update. ;-)

> If they are, any other
> degradations in speed are down to the kit you hang off the cable modem.

Understood.

> Elderly WiFi protocols and the use of 2.4GHz rather than 5GHz WiFi are
> usually to blame.
>

Yeah, the WiFi port on my Thinkpad is also 'N' and it suggests a
theoretical 144/144Mbps connection and a measured 60+Mbps down on the
test app and via Task Manager whilst running the speed tests.

If the LAN was slow and why I am only seeing ~40Mbps on the PCs than
that should also impact any WiFi connections because my (3) AP's are all
also part of the LAN (I turned the WiFi off on the Fritz!Box years ago).

Cheers, T i m

[David Higton]

In message <td3cgm$27htf$1...@dont-email.me>

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

>On 10/08/2022 13:04, Martin Brown wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Unless you are in a very strong signal area you probably want a device
>> that accepts one or more external high gain antennas so that you have
>> more than enough signal to work at the nodes full speed.
>
> Yeah, the little 4G router I bought recently has the option for one
> external antenna and I have watched some videos covering all different
> types. I do have a small Yagi that I have tried on said router but 1)
> I'm not sure it was the right frequency band (it may have been a 'Wifi'
> aerial) and 2) when tested it didn't seem to work as well as the
> internal (but I didn't spend much time playing with it).

At the frequencies involved, cable losses are substantial, so the cable
needs to be very short or the gain of the directional antenna will be
negated by the losses in the cable.

(For exact figures, it's necessary to know the frequency band in use,
the type of cable, and the forward gain of the antenna.)

David

[Tweed]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

If you are out of contract with VM it might be worth calling them and
choosing the thinking of leaving us option. They will tie you to a fresh 18
month contract. £44 does seem steep.

[T i m]

On 11/08/2022 21:35, David Higton wrote:
<snip>

>> Yeah, the little 4G router I bought recently has the option for one
>> external antenna and I have watched some videos covering all different
>> types. I do have a small Yagi that I have tried on said router but 1)
>> I'm not sure it was the right frequency band (it may have been a 'Wifi'
>> aerial) and 2) when tested it didn't seem to work as well as the
>> internal (but I didn't spend much time playing with it).
>
> At the frequencies involved, cable losses are substantial, so the cable
> needs to be very short or the gain of the directional antenna will be
> negated by the losses in the cable.

Understood. FWIW this little Yagi only has a ~40cm feeder but it's the
thin cable (because it's quite short).

>
> (For exact figures, it's necessary to know the frequency band in use,
> the type of cable, and the forward gain of the antenna.)
>

As mentioned elsewhere I'm not even sure it's a cellular band antenna
but could be a WiFi one <checks on Google> ..

Ah, yes it is, it looks like this:

https://www.bjtek.com.tw/wifi-yagi/wifi-yagi-antenna-yga-240.html

It suggests it has a frequency range of 2400-2500MHz and I think 3 can
use LTE Band 1 (2100MHz) for 4G so whilst close, still out of spec for
that twig.

Because I wasn't sure if it was even suitable at the time I only really
tried it for the S&G's, including checking if it did make matters worse
(and it did of course).

The use of the internal or external antenna on that little router is set
to 'Auto' by default so I forced it to 'External' then tried it with or
without the antenna and compared it with the internal. Internal was
best, there was no signal with external selected and with no aerial (no
surprise there but you can sometimes get something if the signal is
strong enough) and a worse-than-internal with the Yagi hooked up.

I also read the following:

"Three mainly uses band 20 (800MHz) and band 3 (1800MHz) for 4G. The
band 32 coverage (1500MHz) is just supplementary downlink: it can give
you faster speeds if available but is by no means required."

I wonder if that last bit covers 4G+?

I think whilst checking the sites Woody refereed to it appears my local
mast is in fact our side of the M25 but about the same distance and
nearly line-of-sight as it was to the one I thought it was.

If it is where I now believe it is it would have been at 90 Degrees to
where the Yagi was pointing. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Woody]

I was on £36/m for 100Mb but at the end of my contract last month it was
going up to £42/m as my loyalty reduction would end. I said I could
manage with 50Mb and with that Retentions were able to stay with it at
£36. However I had done this at least once if not twice before and a bit
down the road I will (hopefully) get an email saying my upgrade to 100Mb
has been completed at no extra cost. Contract from 22 July 2022.

When the annual increase comes around (is it September or March, can't
remember?) I will now have two levers to pull: I know of someone getting
200Mb for £39, or I can go to Zen or Sky on Cityfibre (which is now
available right outside) and get 145Mb for £29.99 from Zen. (Roughly
where do you live Tweed?)

For the record you are technically only under contract with VM for 12
months but they continue the service at the same rate for 18.

[Woody]

3 had better be using some other frequencies for 4G give they are
closing down their 3G operation either the end of this year or the end
of next, can't find which ATM. They are theoretically recycling 2110MHz
for 5G but I'll believe that when I see it!

[T i m]

On 12/08/2022 15:18, Tweed wrote:
<snip>

>
> If you are out of contract with VM

I think I was out of contract with them many years ago. ;-)

> it might be worth calling them and
> choosing the thinking of leaving us option. They will tie you to a fresh 18
> month contract. £44 does seem steep.
>

It does indeed. Need to get my house in order before I call through, in
case I really have to follow up the 'I'm leaving' bluff. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Java Jive]

On 12/08/2022 16:57, T i m wrote:
>
> On 12/08/2022 15:18, Tweed wrote:
>>
>> If you are out of contract with VM
>
> I think I was out of contract with them many years ago. ;-)

... and ...

>> £44 does seem steep.
>
> It does indeed.

If you're out of contract with VM then definitely they will be
over-charging you. That's why I dumped them.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[Tweed]

Nope, VM have joined the 18 month bandwagon now. I’ve recently had
experience of my son’s signing up in both Glasgow and Southampton and the
18 month bit was made very clear. All the ISPs are trying it on from what I
can see, with the odd honourable exception.

I’m in the East Midlands. CityFibre have started digging and I’ll jump ship
as soon as it becomes available. Firstly because I’m fed up playing the
price negotiating game with VM and secondly because CF offer much higher
upload speeds. Like you I’ve been with cable broadband since the early days
of 512kbit/sec cable modems.

For new customers you get reasonable prices, which they point blank refuse
to offer to existing customers. I suppose they hope that after 18 months on
reasonable pricing most customers can’t be bothered to change. I imagine
they have the statistics to back this up.

Round here Open Reach haven’t bothered to install FTTH where VM have a
presence (except for new estates) so you are stuck with VM, and they
presumably know this. However CF seem to be happy to compete with both OR
and VM, and have better technology than both.

[T i m]

On 12/08/2022 17:35, Tweed wrote:
<snip>

> I’m in the East Midlands. CityFibre have started digging and I’ll jump ship
> as soon as it becomes available. Firstly because I’m fed up playing the

> price negotiating game with VM ..

<snip>

This haggling seems now par for the course with many suppliers and if it
wasn't for the fact that the likes of the AA valued my custom more than
I valued the service they offered *me* (chances are I wouldn't call them
out for half the things many would and have often got myself going
before they turned up. Once I fixed the lights on their supplied
recovery truck. ;-) )

The Mrs really gets pissed off by that sort of financial practice
because whilst we can generally sort something out, many as you say
elsewhere don't bother or more worryingly, don't know how to or that
they often can.

But the question is, there must be a spreadsheet 'cost' of the cover to
everyone and so is it simply price gouging of those who don't haggle or
are those haggling increasing the cost to everyone else?

Did the 'cost' of having 20 extra companies (with all the additional
heads trying to take a living from the same number of customers) trying
to earn a living selling electricity they didn't generate just add more
cost to all of us both not rate-tarting or not feeling we should try to
haggle?

The fact that I can haggle with a supplier and get a reduced price just
feels very wrong to me (ethically etc).

I saw a program where a bodger was making chairs in the woods and
someone asked him how much a particular chair cost. He said 'I charge
£10/hour and that chair took 50 hours to make'.

Cheers, T i m

[Woody]

First off I stand corrected, it is 18 months but from what I can see the
change has taken place since the end of 2020 as I cannot find any record
of notification.

East Midlands suggests you are on the former Diamond network? Alongside
the Yorkshire Cable and Bell Cablemedia structures around here I would
stay with the opinion that Diamond was one of the better providers. A
friend and former colleague who lives in Sneinton has been on what was
Diamond and is now VM for probably 20+ years and has never had a single
outage that I am aware of.

[Tweed]

Yes, the infrastructure works very well and is ex Diamond Cable. I’ve been
on a cable modem since 1989. Occasionally, a couple of times a year or so,
the cable modem needs power cycling. It’s just the relatively recent price
walking upwards that annoys me, especially given the difference between
existing and new subscribers.

[David Sankey]

On 08/08/2022 18:15, T i m wrote:
> On 08/08/2022 16:20, Woody wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> This may sound a silly question, but has the OP tried rattling VM's
>> cage to get a better deal out of them?
>
> Hi Woody. ;-)
>
>> Talking to Retentions can often get staggering discounts - been there,
>> done that etc etc.
>
> No, I haven't tried this time round but have in the past and generally
> do with the likes of the AA etc. That was how I got it free for a year
> because after fcuking up giving me 'the next couples of months free' for
> 3 months in a row (to retain my custom), they just credited my account
> with a years work of payments. ;-)
>
> What I am in the process of doing is migrating any emails still left on
> NTL over to my own domain and then I was going to make the call (I know
> I have 90 days but ...)
>
>> I too have been on VM for a long time - heavens I was a beta tester on
>> NtlWorld!
>
> ;-)
>
>> Retentions direct line is 0800 952 2277 and it is often better to call
>> them close to the end of the month or just into the new one.
>
> Cheers.
>
>> Do your homework, make sure you know what you options areand what you
>> will accept, and what other ISPs in your area can offer as well. Also
>> do you need high speed?
>
> No, not really (as long as it's 'fast enough') and I have never actioned
> a supposedly 'free upgrade to a faster speed' for that reason.
>
>> I don't and just got $8/m discount for going down from 100Mb to 50Mb -
>> in the safe and certain knowledge that they will upgrade me f.o.c to
>> 100Mb in a few months time - they've done it at least twice before!
>
> See above ... but if formally requesting a slower speed for less money
> works I'll give it a go.
>
>> It is also a good idea to back out of anything they offer, say no, and
>> tell them you are giving the statutory 30 days notice. They will call
>> you a week later with an offer you can't refuse.
>
> Nice one. Like the old 'leave it in your shopping basket' trick.
>>
>> Also have a look to see if Cityfibre have anything in your area. They
>> are outside my house so available and carry TalkTalk, Sky, VF and Zen.
>> I am at the moment paying £36/m for 50Mb BB and phone (which we never
>> use as we have a BT line.) I can have FTTP from Zen over Cityfibre
>> running 145Mb for £29.95/m or 300Mb for £32.99/m. Phone costs an
>> additional £7/m.
>
> Ok.
>>
>> The one thing that many people overlook when thinking of leaving VM is
>> the reliability of their service. In 22 years we have had four
>> outages, the longest of three days when a drunk piled his car into the
>> streetcab at the top of our road!
>
> Oooerr (I am often putting the lids back on and closing the doors on
> them when out dog walking).
>
>> Can mi-fi beat that?
>
> Maybe a small 'MiFi' unit might not but hopefully £200+'s worth of ZTE /
> Netgear / TP_Link / Huawei 4/5G Cat6+ router with external aerial
> options and Gb switch / LAN / Ethernet Wan / fallback might (subject to
> the 4/5G side etc). On that I'm within 500m ATCF and pretty well
> lign-of-sight from the local mast.
>>
>
> But yes, I have 'enjoyed' similar levels of reliability (and certainly
> compared with many ADSL lines where restarting the router every so often
> seems par for the course) and that was why I was asking here about the
> 'real world' performance of Mobile BB 'today'. Several people on Youtube
> bought mobile solutions to provide temporary access but ended up
> sticking with them because they got better performance (or service) than
> the ADSL / Cable service they just left.
>
> VM are currently charging me ~£45 for just BB at probably 100Mb/s and
> according to my FritzBox router I downloaded 223,991MB last month
> (9,144MB uploaded).
>
> And I could afford to pay for a 'better' mobile BB service if I wasn't
> paying the £44/m to VM and whatever BT currently charge for a telephone
> line (that I rarely use and I doubt would sustain a decent ADSL service
> judging by the line noise that it often present (that has been reported
> and supposedly fixed several times over the years, seems fixed but then
> returns)).
>
> Keen to try stuff I've put another Smarty Data SIM online (£4.50/2G/m)
> and it's currently in an old SGS4 running a wireless hotspot and have a
> laptop connect though it to test for connectivity and check speeds etc.
>
> I do have an old Zoom mobile BB router and a TP-Link one somewhere that
> *might* take the ZTE 4G USB modem (MF833U1) but the Zoom doesn't seem
> compatible. Then I was going to see if I could DIY a router using a RPI4
> but that seems to involve loads of Linux CLI incantations that I know
> will end in tears. ;-(
>
> What I was hoping to do is put <whatever mobile service router> on my
> LAN in parallel with VM but then I could set the default gateway on
> selected devices to use that to give me the feel of how good / reliable
> it was but could manually fall-back to VM if needed.
>
> Cheers, T i m

My experience was I have good level 4G signal and snr on Three, Vodafone
and EE.

Having experimented like you with Three I signed up for their 4G, then
immediately returned it for full refund as appalling at best, but mainly
totally unusable.

Then tried Voda unlimited unlimited 4G. This varied between good (200M
down, 50M up), mainly OK and appalling (below 1M each way) during
working day with monthly usage between 200 to 300G.

So I would summarise as can be very good, but seems very variable down
to barely usable. Neighbour who sprang for a 5G router had similar tale.

FTTP has finally arrived so we are now on that.

D

[T i m]

On 23/08/2022 17:10, David Sankey wrote:

<snip>

>> What I was hoping to do is put <whatever mobile service router> on my
>> LAN in parallel with VM but then I could set the default gateway on
>> selected devices to use that to give me the feel of how good /
>> reliable it was but could manually fall-back to VM if needed.
>>

>

> My experience was I have good level 4G signal and snr on Three, Vodafone
> and EE.

Ok.

>
> Having experimented like you with Three I signed up for their 4G, then
> immediately returned it for full refund as appalling at best, but mainly
> totally unusable.

I'm guessing the definition of 'usability' can vary many much between
users though. eg, For me, as long as I could send / receive emails,
stream HD video without buffering or dropouts (when I typically want to
do so) and up / download as much as I wanted / month ... and for say
£20/month, that's ok for me. So far that seems to be the case with 3
(Smarty) here. I imagine (from my EE phone), EE would be better (as in
faster, stronger signal) but I'm not sure I would appreciate such ITRW
and certainly not if it was more expensive or had other limits.

For me it's like having a Supercar in the UK. It's probably nice / fun
now and again but ITRW, you are likely to be in the traffic with
everyone else so as long as it gets you to work and the shops and back
.. ;-)

>
> Then tried Voda unlimited unlimited 4G.  This varied between good (200M
> down, 50M up), mainly OK and appalling (below 1M each way) during
> working day with monthly usage between 200 to 300G.

FWIW etc, I think the only time I've seen performance anything like as
bad as that over 3 is when I've been playing with antennae and they have
been pointing the wrong way etc. ;-)

>
> So I would summarise as can be very good, but seems very variable down
> to barely usable.  Neighbour who sprang for a 5G router had similar tale.

Noted, thanks.

>
> FTTP has finally arrived so we are now on that.
>

On the TP-Link Archer MR600 $G router I have it supports MiMo and I
think it indicates it's in MiMo mode by illuminating the '4G' indicator
on the top and it has only done so here a very few times (even with
external LPDA antennae potentially pointing at a 3 cell ~500m away, good
line-of-sight). Same router with it's built in antennae on daughters
lounge windowsill, next to her Plusnet router and behind a load of pot
plants, I saw the '4G' indicator on all the time?

So this all goes to support your 'can be good or bad and likely to vary
a lot' observations, especially here and seems to be '(network) rush
hour' rather than signal related but if you are lucky and are close to a
good cell that isn't that busy and the worst case performance is worse
than your existing suppliers service, then it could be 'better' in all
senses? ;-)

I'm still experimenting with the external aerial thing and that's been
held up waiting for a replacement Smarty SIM for the one that went down
to Brighton (I though a replacement SIM from Smarty would be quicker
than getting a student to post me mine back ..) but then I intend to put
one in a spare phone and get a better idea about the actual cell service
and direction etc. My SGS4 has external aerial connection(s) so I might
be able to use it with one of the LPDA's like a range / direction finder.

Cheers, T i m