EU rules to force USB-C chargers for all phones

[Java Jive]

And if the EU do it, most probably everywhere else will as well, because
they are among the biggest trading blocks in the world, and likely it
won't make economic sense for manufacturers to make phones with
different charging sockets around the world if they don't have to ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809

"EU rules to force USB-C chargers for all phones

Manufacturers will be forced to create a universal charging solution for
phones and small electronic devices, under a new rule proposed by the
European Commission (EC).

The aim is to reduce waste by encouraging consumers to re-use existing
chargers when buying a new device.

All smartphones sold in the EU must have USB-C chargers, the proposal said.

Apple has warned such a move would harm innovation.

The tech giant is the main manufacturer of smartphones using a custom
charging port, as its iPhone series uses an Apple-made "Lightning"
connector.

"We remain concerned that strict regulation mandating just one type of
connector stifles innovation rather than encouraging it, which in turn
will harm consumers in Europe and around the world," the firm told the BBC.

It added that it aims to make every Apple device and usage carbon
neutral by 2030.

Most Android phones come with USB micro-B charging ports, or have
already moved to the more modern USB-C standard."

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 13:13 schrieb Java Jive:

> Most Android phones come with USB micro-B charging ports, or have
> already moved to the more modern USB-C standard."

Apple is the last obstacle in this process.



--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[Rob]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> Apple has warned such a move would harm innovation.

Fortunately the EU can resist such nonsense and force Apple to
change it. It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.

[MB]

On 24/09/2021 12:34, Rob wrote:
> Fortunately the EU can resist such nonsense and force Apple to
> change it. It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
> innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.

Fortunately?

I am no fan of Apple but it means now that any manufacturer bring out a
new phone, with an improved connector, will have to go through a long
breaucratic process with the EU to get it approved by them - a cynic
might suggest that French and German phones will get approval faster
than anyone else's. This will all cost money and any minor change will
need further approval.

The costs will be passed on to the consumer of course.

It is not as if you need dozens of different leads.

Just of all the other things that they can standardise and employ even
more bureaucrats to enforce it.

At least we are only indirectly affected by this nonsense.

[MB]

On 24/09/2021 12:18, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 24.09.21 um 13:13 schrieb Java Jive:
>> Most Android phones come with USB micro-B charging ports, or have
>> already moved to the more modern USB-C standard."
> Apple is the last obstacle in this process.
>

Will the EU police be kicking doors down to check people are not using
an unapproved lead?

[Theo]

In uk.telecom.mobile MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 12:34, Rob wrote:
> > Fortunately the EU can resist such nonsense and force Apple to
> > change it. It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
> > innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.
>
> Fortunately?
>
> I am no fan of Apple but it means now that any manufacturer bring out a
> new phone, with an improved connector

When was the last time a manufacturer brought out a phone with an improved
connector, that wasn't USB-C or Apple? Manufacturers are free to do so
outside of the EU - China is a huge market, for example - but I don't see
phones using any other connectors in that market.

> breaucratic process with the EU to get it approved by them - a cynic
> might suggest that French and German phones will get approval faster
> than anyone else's.

What French and German phones?

Theo

[Java Jive]

On 24/09/2021 13:04, Theo wrote:
>
> In uk.telecom.mobile MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 24/09/2021 12:34, Rob wrote:
>>>
>>> Fortunately the EU can resist such nonsense and force Apple to
>>> change it. It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
>>> innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.
>>
>> Fortunately?

Yes, fortunately! Even though we've left the EU, UK market phones will
be standardised as well, because we are too small a market to have
phones with different connectors made especially for the UK, so we will
benefit from this ruling, as, very likely, will the rest of the world.

>> I am no fan of Apple but it means now that any manufacturer bring out a
>> new phone, with an improved connector

Far, far more likely it would have been no better, just different, to
lock customers in to buying more expensive ancillary equipment such as
chargers.

> When was the last time a manufacturer brought out a phone with an improved
> connector, that wasn't USB-C or Apple? Manufacturers are free to do so
> outside of the EU - China is a huge market, for example - but I don't see
> phones using any other connectors in that market.

Exactly.

>> breaucratic process with the EU to get it approved by them - a cynic
>> might suggest that French and German phones will get approval faster
>> than anyone else's.
>
> What French and German phones?

Exactly, this is just the usual anti-EU bigotry, from one of the usual
anti-EU bigots.

[Rob]

MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 12:34, Rob wrote:
>> Fortunately the EU can resist such nonsense and force Apple to
>> change it. It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
>> innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.
>
> Fortunately?
>
> I am no fan of Apple but it means now that any manufacturer bring out a
> new phone, with an improved connector, will have to go through a long
> breaucratic process with the EU to get it approved by them - a cynic
> might suggest that French and German phones will get approval faster
> than anyone else's. This will all cost money and any minor change will
> need further approval.

This (or such) rulings are there to prevent manufacturers from making
improved connectors that they claim are innovating, but in reality are
just intended to lock you to them.

When manufacturers are forced to follow a standard, that means that
everything will just inter-operate and you can charge your phone from
the charger of your wife's phone. That is not what Apple wants, Apple
wants your wife to buy an Apple phone as well, or you to buy sufficient
chargers so that you always have one nearby even when you forgot to
bring it. That is what they call innovation, and what others call
waste of resources.

[nospam]

In article <slrnskrhjr...@xs9.xs4all.nl>, Rob

<nom...@example.com> wrote:

> When manufacturers are forced to follow a standard, that means that
> everything will just inter-operate and you can charge your phone from
> the charger of your wife's phone. That is not what Apple wants, Apple
> wants your wife to buy an Apple phone as well, or you to buy sufficient
> chargers so that you always have one nearby even when you forgot to
> bring it. That is what they call innovation, and what others call
> waste of resources.

apple doesn't care what charger someone uses. any charger that is usb-a
or usb-c will work, same as android and many other devices.

[Tweed]

There’s a lot of misinformation written about Apple phones. Although they
have a lightning connector they supply a lead that fits into a standard USB
connector. Earlier phones had a lightning to USB-A lead. Later phones have
lightning to USB-C leads supplied (although those phones will still charge
with an older lightning to USB-A cable, so you don’t have to throw any of
your stuff away). Thus you can charge your phone from any standard USB
socketed charger.

Lightning is a much more robust connector than the mini/micro usb sockets
found on other phones.

Lightning to either USB-A or USB-C leads are freely available from third
parties, some of better quality than others.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 13:34 schrieb Rob:

*SIC*!

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 14:37 schrieb Java Jive:

+1

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 14:53 schrieb nospam:

Stupid. A charger system always has two ends.

[Roger Mills]

What a load of cobblers!

Many phones and other devices aren't supplied with chargers anyway -
just a lead with (usually) USB-A at one end and a connector appropriate
to the charging port at the other end. You than plug that into a charger
of your choice. Is it a real hardship to have 3 cables - or one cable
with 3 alternative ends?

Some chargers supplied with USB-C devices are capable of turbo charging,
and negotiate the best rate with the device being charged. If chargers
are to be standardised, does this mean that *all* chargers must have
this ability even when supplied with a device which can't use it? I'm
not sure that they've thought this through!
--
Cheers,
Roger

[NY]

"Joerg Lorenz" <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote in message
news:sikc5p$m1m$3...@dont-email.me...

> Am 24.09.21 um 13:13 schrieb Java Jive:
>> Most Android phones come with USB micro-B charging ports, or have
>> already moved to the more modern USB-C standard."
>
> Apple is the last obstacle in this process.

Apple is the last (but highest) obstacle in *every* process. They cannot see
a standard without ignoring it. Sometimes their solution is better, but
usually it's just different. The Lightning connector is better than Mini-
and Micro-USB because it is rotationally symmetrical - it will fit either
way round. It *may* be better than USB-C in that the vulnerable part - the
thin PCB with contacts on it - is on the plug/lead rather than on the
socket, so it is cheaper and easier to replace if it gets broken. But
everyone else uses Mini/Micro/C, and these are (AFAIK) open standards
without licence fees. I bet if other manufacturers wanted to use Lightning
so it would become a universal standard, Apple would charge money for it -
so that is not the standard that everyone else uses.

There comes a time when it is better for everyone to do it the same and be
compatible, rather than inventing a proprietary standard that is better.

[AJL]

On 9/24/2021 5:53 AM, nospam wrote:

> apple doesn't care what charger someone uses. any charger that is
> usb-a or usb-c will work, same as android and many other devices.

Or none. The Apple phone in my house hasn't been plugged into anything
for many months and works just fine. Same with my Android phone. Nobody
in my household would miss a portless phone of either persuasion...

[Tweed]

That’s not quite true. There are a number of useful accessories that can be
plugged into the lightning port. Not everything is wireless yet.

[Tweed]

There is absolutely nothing to stop you plugging an iPhone into a USB-A
charger and their later models can be plugged into a USB-C charger.
Enforcing connector standardisation at the phone end is daft.

[Java Jive]

On 24/09/2021 15:39, Tweed wrote:
>
> There is absolutely nothing to stop you plugging an iPhone into a USB-A
> charger and their later models can be plugged into a USB-C charger.
> Enforcing connector standardisation at the phone end is daft.

Why? Lots of other such things are standardised, why not that? I'm
still waiting for the EU to standardise book sizes. Have you ever tried
to pack a trunk with books, all of which are different sizes?

[Java Jive]

On 24/09/2021 15:27, Roger Mills wrote:
>
> Some chargers supplied with USB-C devices are capable of turbo charging,
> and negotiate the best rate with the device being charged. If chargers
> are to be standardised, does this mean that *all* chargers must have
> this ability even when supplied with a device which can't use it? I'm
> not sure that they've thought this through!

Read the article, and you'll find out.

[AJL]

On 9/24/2021 7:37 AM, Tweed wrote:
> AJL <noe...@none.com> wrote:
>> On 9/24/2021 5:53 AM, nospam wrote:
>>
>>> apple doesn't care what charger someone uses. any charger that
>>> is usb-a or usb-c will work, same as android and many other
>>> devices.
>>
>> Or none. The Apple phone in my house hasn't been plugged into
>> anything for many months and works just fine. Same with my Android
>> phone. Nobody in my household would miss a portless phone of either
>> persuasion...
>>
>
> That’s not quite true.

Course it is. I said: "In MY house". YMMV of course...

> There are a number of useful accessories that can be plugged into the
> lightning port.

> Not everything is wireless yet.

True. And in keeping with the subject, ALL the wireless chargers I can
buy in my area ARE standardized. So I can lay a wireless charging phone
of most ANY persuasion on my chargers. Actually kinda nice...

[Tweed]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 15:39, Tweed wrote:
>>
>> There is absolutely nothing to stop you plugging an iPhone into a USB-A
>> charger and their later models can be plugged into a USB-C charger.
>> Enforcing connector standardisation at the phone end is daft.
>
> Why? Lots of other such things are standardised, why not that? I'm
> still waiting for the EU to standardise book sizes. Have you ever tried
> to pack a trunk with books, all of which are different sizes?
>

Standardisation is only useful when it serves a purpose that vastly
outweighs any of the potential downsides.

[Frank Slootweg]

Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <slrnskrhjr...@xs9.xs4all.nl>, Rob
> > <nom...@example.com> wrote:
> >
> >> When manufacturers are forced to follow a standard, that means that
> >> everything will just inter-operate and you can charge your phone from
> >> the charger of your wife's phone. That is not what Apple wants, Apple
> >> wants your wife to buy an Apple phone as well, or you to buy sufficient
> >> chargers so that you always have one nearby even when you forgot to
> >> bring it. That is what they call innovation, and what others call
> >> waste of resources.
> >
> > apple doesn't care what charger someone uses. any charger that is usb-a
> > or usb-c will work, same as android and many other devices.
> >
>

> There?s a lot of misinformation written about Apple phones. Although they

> have a lightning connector they supply a lead that fits into a standard USB
> connector. Earlier phones had a lightning to USB-A lead. Later phones have
> lightning to USB-C leads supplied (although those phones will still charge

> with an older lightning to USB-A cable, so you don?t have to throw any of

> your stuff away). Thus you can charge your phone from any standard USB
> socketed charger.

No, there isn't any "misinformation". But there *is* dodging/diverting
from AppleSeeds like nospam.

These EU rules are not about the plug/socket on the *charger* side, but
about the socket on the *device* side, the 'charging port '.

Yes, these 'journalists' often get the 'details' wrong, and that's
also the case in the article mentioned in the OP: "EU rules to force
USB-C chargers for all phones". They don't force USB-C *chargers*, they
force USB-C *charging*/*charging ports*.

At least at one point in the article, they get it (mostly) right:

"The changes would apply to the charging port on the device body,
whereas the end of the cable connecting to a plug could be USB-C or
USB-A."

(See also the two paragraphs befor that paragraph.)

> Lightning is a much more robust connector than the mini/micro usb sockets
> found on other phones.

Most if not all somewhat recent phones have USB-C sockets, not
Micro-USB. (I don't think I've ever seen a Mini-USB port on a
*smart*phone.)

And note that - as the article mentions - "New models of the iPad and
MacBook use USB-C charging ports". So much for "Apple has warned such a
move [to USB-C charging ports] would harm innovation.". Apparently iPads
and MacBooks don't need "innovation".

[...]

[Tweed]

Wireless charging is not very efficient. I’ve just read an article about
charging a Google Pixel. 14W hours for wired charging from flat. 21W hours
for wireless charging.

There’s another downside to wireless charging. It is very much harder to
charge and use your phone at the same time.

Also makes it harder to plug in an external battery pack, though you could
do it with an Apple style magnetic adapter, but then throw away a third of
your external battery’s capacity away due to inefficiency. There’s still a
role for wired charging capability.

[Carlos E. R.]

Of course not. What an stupid idea.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan Baker]

You mean other than coming up with the most efficient and powerful
processors used in phones; so powerful that they're now used for Macs as
well.

Other than innovations in software to make better pictures.

Visit Patently Apple some time.

[Frank Slootweg]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 15:27, Roger Mills wrote:
> >
> > Some chargers supplied with USB-C devices are capable of turbo charging,
> > and negotiate the best rate with the device being charged. If chargers
> > are to be standardised, does this mean that *all* chargers must have
> > this ability even when supplied with a device which can't use it? I'm
> > not sure that they've thought this through!
>
> Read the article, and you'll find out.

Nah! Be reasonable! Where's the fun in *that*?

OTOH, in defense of some of the complainers/flamers, it *is* a rather
crappy/misleading article. But don't worry, the one in our newspaper was
even worse and showed some cables with HDMI connectors! :-) c.q. :-(

[Alan Baker]

Except that Apple phones have been able to use almost any USB charger
since... ...forever.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 24/09/2021 17.02, Java Jive wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 15:39, Tweed wrote:
>>
>> There is absolutely nothing to stop you plugging an iPhone into a USB-A
>> charger and their later models can be plugged into a USB-C charger.
>> Enforcing connector standardisation at the phone end is daft.
>
> Why?  Lots of other such things are standardised, why not that?  I'm
> still waiting for the EU to standardise book sizes.  Have you ever tried
> to pack a trunk with books, all of which are different sizes?

Indeed!

Or a book shelve.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

And it does :-)


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Java Jive]

Why 'vastly', surely all that's needed is that the benefits outweigh the
disadvantages?

Do you really want to return to a world where all the networking gear
has manufacturer-specific connectors and protocols that aren't
interoperable? Or one where each manufacturer has its own proprietary
format for a USB-stick that no other machines can read? Etc, etc.

> And it does :-)

Exactly!

[Java Jive]

None of this is answer to the accusation of vendor lock-in which is the
salient point to which you were replying, so this is simply pro-Apple
bigotry, at the same level of useless irrelevance with the anti-EU
bigotry of others.

[Rob]

Alan Baker <notony...@no.no.no.no> wrote:
> On 2021-09-24 4:34 a.m., Rob wrote:
>> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> Apple has warned such a move would harm innovation.
>>
>> Fortunately the EU can resist such nonsense and force Apple to
>> change it. It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
>> innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.
>>
>
> You mean other than coming up with the most efficient and powerful
> processors used in phones; so powerful that they're now used for Macs as
> well.

Using different processors than Intel in a general-purpose machine
is not something that is specific for Apple.

> Other than innovations in software to make better pictures.

And to scan the pictures on user's devices to see if they match
some pattern...


What about innovating devices to the point where they can no longer
be repaired, and making sure that any attempt to do so is hindered
by unobtainium parts, serialized parts that cannot be swapped, etc.
Also one of those worthwile Apple innovations!

[Robin Goodfellow]

NY <m...@privacy.invalid> asked

> There comes a time when it is better for everyone to do it the same and be
> compatible, rather than inventing a proprietary standard that is better.

Have you noticed the immensity of Apple's profit margins?

Partly that's due to Apple removing things so that people must buy it back.
(that's why Apple removed the standard aux port & never added the sd slot)

Apple proprietary connectors are just more of the same crippling of Apple
devices so that the customer has to seek a solution gaining Apple profits.

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 8:53 a.m., Java Jive wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 16:35, Alan Baker wrote:
>>
>> On 2021-09-24 4:34 a.m., Rob wrote:
>>>
>>> It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
>>> innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.
>>
>> You mean other than coming up with the most efficient and powerful
>> processors used in phones; so powerful that they're now used for Macs
>> as well.
>>
>> Other than innovations in software to make better pictures.
>>
>> Visit Patently Apple some time.
>
> None of this is answer to the accusation of vendor lock-in which is the
> salient point to which you were replying, so this is simply pro-Apple
> bigotry, at the same level of useless irrelevance with the anti-EU
> bigotry of others.
>

It was a direct answer to the explicit claim that:

"It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful innovation"

That claim is complete and utter bullshit.

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 9:00 a.m., Rob wrote:
> Alan Baker <notony...@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>> On 2021-09-24 4:34 a.m., Rob wrote:
>>> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Apple has warned such a move would harm innovation.
>>>
>>> Fortunately the EU can resist such nonsense and force Apple to
>>> change it. It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
>>> innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.
>>>
>>
>> You mean other than coming up with the most efficient and powerful
>> processors used in phones; so powerful that they're now used for Macs as
>> well.
>
> Using different processors than Intel in a general-purpose machine
> is not something that is specific for Apple.

Apple CREATED the processors.

>
>> Other than innovations in software to make better pictures.
>
> And to scan the pictures on user's devices to see if they match
> some pattern...

It's a whole lot more than that.

>
>
> What about innovating devices to the point where they can no longer
> be repaired, and making sure that any attempt to do so is hindered
> by unobtainium parts, serialized parts that cannot be swapped, etc.
> Also one of those worthwile Apple innovations!

Deflecting indicates you concede my point.

[Robin Goodfellow]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> asked

> apple doesn't care what charger someone uses. any charger that is usb-a
> or usb-c will work, same as android and many other devices.

Then why did Brazil force Apple to include the (correct) charger?
(in the box!)

Notice what this means to the already fear-filled Apple Care idiots.

If you use _any_ old other charger than the charger that Apple did NOT put
in the box, then Apple can and will refuse to honor the warranty if that
charger (which Apple did NOT supply in the iPhone box!) damages your iPhone.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> asked

> (although those phones will still charge

> with an older lightning to USB-A cable, so you don┤ have to throw any of

> your stuff away). Thus you can charge your phone from any standard USB
> socketed charger.

[AJL]

On 9/24/2021 8:22 AM, Tweed wrote:
> AJL <noe...@none.com> wrote:

>> in keeping with the subject, ALL the wireless chargers I can buy in
>> my area ARE standardized. So I can lay a wireless charging phone
>> of most ANY persuasion on my chargers. Actually kinda nice...

> Wireless charging is not very efficient. I’ve just read an article
> about charging a Google Pixel. 14W hours for wired charging from
> flat. 21W hours for wireless charging.

Wireless charging time depends on the phone and the charger. I'm an
overnight charger so have never had a problem.

> There’s another downside to wireless charging. It is very much harder
> to charge and use your phone at the same time.

If you're a 24/7 user I can perhaps see the problem. But for me it's
much easier to just lift the ringing phone from the wireless charger and
start talking and walking, not being tied to a wall...

> Also makes it harder to plug in an external battery pack,

I have never had to use an external pack. That would be a PITA IMO.
Perhaps it's because my phone has a 4,100 mAh battery.

> There’s still a role for wired charging capability.

Course. But if you're going to be tied to a wall why not just use a
landline. Battery never goes dead... ;)

Bottom bottom line: YMMV...

[Robin Goodfellow]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> asked

> Most if not all somewhat recent phones have USB-C sockets, not
> Micro-USB. (I don't think I've ever seen a Mini-USB port on a
> *smart*phone.

People are concentrating only on _some_ of the right issues.
What about getting the charging speed that you _paid_ for in the iPhone?

Does anyone here yet realize Apple is suggesting you use an old charger with
the iPhone 12 series (all of which don't come with _any_ charger).

But that makes no sense.
And nobody is noticing why?

You already _paid_ a lot of money for fast-charging speeds, didn't you?
You can't get those advertised speeds using _any_ iPhone box charger!

You lose.

Do any of you realize Apple has _never_ supplied the correct charger in
_any_ iPhone box ever sold by Apple?

Never.

That means _nobody_ who ever bought an iPhone has the correct charger.
Nobody.

[Java Jive]

On 24/09/2021 17:10, Alan Baker wrote:
>
> It was a direct answer to the explicit claim that:
>
> "It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful innovation"
>
> That claim is complete and utter bullshit.

It's also a matter of opinion, and OT for the thread.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> asked

>> apple doesn't care what charger someone uses. any charger that is usb-a
>> or usb-c will work, same as android and many other devices.
>

> Stupid. A charger system always has two ends.

There are more issues at stake than just the shape of the connector.

For one, Apple _refuses_ to honor the warranty if you use any old charger
(because Apple did NOT supply any charger with the iPhone 12 series).

If any old charger damages your expensive iPhone, even with the expensive
AppleCare, Apple told Brazil Apple will _refuse_ to honor your warranty.

Even if the iPhone 12 is brand new.
*If you do what Apple tells you to do... it's no warranty for you.*

Worse, Apple gets to advertise a charging speed for the iPhone 12 that is
_impossible_ to get if you don't pay extra money for that _correct_ iPhone
12 charger because Apple has _never_ supplied the correct iPhone 12 charger
in _any_ iPhone box ever sold on this planet (except, soon, in Brazil).

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 17:31 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

I think it is not helpful to feed ignorant and anonymous Trolls.



--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 9:23 a.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> asked
>> Most if not all somewhat recent phones have USB-C sockets, not
>> Micro-USB. (I don't think I've ever seen a Mini-USB port on a
>> *smart*phone.
>
> People are concentrating only on _some_ of the right issues.
> What about getting the charging speed that you _paid_ for in the iPhone?
>
> Does anyone here yet realize Apple is suggesting you use an old charger with
> the iPhone 12 series (all of which don't come with _any_ charger).

Apple is not suggesting any such thing.

>
> But that makes no sense.
> And nobody is noticing why?
>
> You already _paid_ a lot of money for fast-charging speeds, didn't you?
> You can't get those advertised speeds using _any_ iPhone box charger!

But why do you limit your statement to "iPhone box" chargers?

People have lots of USB chargers by now.

>
> You lose.
>
> Do any of you realize Apple has _never_ supplied the correct charger in
> _any_ iPhone box ever sold by Apple?
>
> Never.
>
> That means _nobody_ who ever bought an iPhone has the correct charger.
> Nobody.

No. It does not mean that.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 17:16 schrieb Tweed:

> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>> Why? Lots of other such things are standardised, why not that? I'm
>> still waiting for the EU to standardise book sizes. Have you ever tried
>> to pack a trunk with books, all of which are different sizes?
>>
>
> Standardisation is only useful when it serves a purpose that vastly
> outweighs any of the potential downsides.

Which is the case on this topic.

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 9:10 a.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> NY <m...@privacy.invalid> asked
>> There comes a time when it is better for everyone to do it the same and be
>> compatible, rather than inventing a proprietary standard that is better.
>
> Have you noticed the immensity of Apple's profit margins?

Can you actually cite that Apple's profit margins for an iPhone are
larger than Samsung's for its high-end phones?

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 9:24 a.m., Java Jive wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 17:10, Alan Baker wrote:
>>
>> It was a direct answer to the explicit claim that:
>>
>> "It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful innovation"
>>
>> That claim is complete and utter bullshit.
>
> It's also a matter of opinion, and OT for the thread.
>

He brought it up...

...you didn't call it OT when he brought it up...

...but now that I've addressed it, you call it "OT".

Got it.

[Alan Baker]

Nope. You're lying again!

[Alan Baker]

Nope! You're lying again!

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 9:28 a.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> asked
>>> apple doesn't care what charger someone uses. any charger that is usb-a
>>> or usb-c will work, same as android and many other devices.
>>
>> Stupid. A charger system always has two ends.
>
> There are more issues at stake than just the shape of the connector.
>
> For one, Apple _refuses_ to honor the warranty if you use any old charger
> (because Apple did NOT supply any charger with the iPhone 12 series).

Cite, please!

>
> If any old charger damages your expensive iPhone, even with the expensive
> AppleCare, Apple told Brazil Apple will _refuse_ to honor your warranty.

Cite, please!

>
> Even if the iPhone 12 is brand new.
> *If you do what Apple tells you to do... it's no warranty for you.*

Cite, please!

>
> Worse, Apple gets to advertise a charging speed for the iPhone 12 that is
> _impossible_ to get if you don't pay extra money for that _correct_ iPhone
> 12 charger because Apple has _never_ supplied the correct iPhone 12 charger
> in _any_ iPhone box ever sold on this planet (except, soon, in Brazil).

Nope. You're completely wrong!

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 17:35 schrieb Alan Baker:

> On 2021-09-24 4:34 a.m., Rob wrote:
>> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> Apple has warned such a move would harm innovation.
>>
>> Fortunately the EU can resist such nonsense and force Apple to
>> change it. It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
>> innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.
>>
>
> You mean other than coming up with the most efficient and powerful
> processors used in phones; so powerful that they're now used for Macs as
> well.

Off topic

> Other than innovations in software to make better pictures.

Certainly not Apple.
Others have long taken the lead.

[Alan Baker]

No, actually. It isn't.

Standardization saves you from having to buy one CABLE and that's all.

And as was pointed out elsewhere:

'It’s long been my guess that iPhone is never going to support USB-C. I
think it’s Apple’s intention to go straight from Lightning to
wireless/inductive, with no “port”. Portless is the future for all
devices. Yet the product design geniuses at the European Commission want
to mandate all devices have one specific port in 2024 and indefinitely
thereafter — a port that by that time will already be 10 years old.'

So this standardization will damage innovation.

[Robin Goodfellow]

AJL <noe...@none.com> asked

> Wireless charging time depends on the phone and the charger.
> I'm an overnight charger so have never had a problem.

Nobody puts crappier batteries in a smartphone than does Apple.
And Apple has _never_ put the _correct_ iPhone 12 charger in any iPhone box!

In contrast...

My free Samsung Galaxy A32 5G came with a huge 5AH battery.
And the charger in the box is the _correct_ fast charger for that phone!

>> There's another downside to wireless charging. It is very much harder
>> to charge and use your phone at the same time.
>
> If you're a 24/7 user I can perhaps see the problem. But for me it's
> much easier to just lift the ringing phone from the wireless charger and
> start talking and walking, not being tied to a wall...

I bought an iPhone 12 mini for half price at the same time that I received
the handful of free Samsung Galaxy A32 5G phones and guess what?

*The iPhone 12 is _always_ dead* (the Galaxy last for days and days).

Galaxy:
1. Fast charger in the box
2. Huge battery in the phone

iPhone 12:
1. No charger (so you're stuck 100% with the _wrong_ charger!)
2. Cheap puny battery in the phone

Nobody makes cheaper batteries than does Apple.
(Even the battery boards use cheap components!)

See references in the sig.

>> Also makes it harder to plug in an external battery pack,
>
> I have never had to use an external pack. That would be a PITA IMO.
> Perhaps it's because my phone has a 4,100 mAh battery.

My free Samsung Galaxy A32 5G has a huge 5AH battery.
It fast charges in no time with the free fast charger that came with it.

>> There's still a role for wired charging capability.
>
> Course. But if you're going to be tied to a wall why not just use a
> landline. Battery never goes dead... ;)

Apple _cripples_ the iPhone in every way so that you have to buy more and
more expensive components just to get back all the things Apple removed.
--
*Nobody puts crappier batteries in smartphones than does Apple*
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/21/21394985/apple-iphone-12-battery-cost-5g-kuo
https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/08/21/apple-to-offset-cost-of-5g-iphone-components-with-cheaper-battery-tech
https://www.maticstoday.com/2020/08/21/why-apple-is-using-cheap-battery-parts-in-iphone-12/
https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/21/kuo-iphone-12-5g-component-cost/
https://www.pcmag.com/news/report-iphone-12-to-use-smaller-cheaper-battery
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/20/kuo-iphone-12-battery-board/
https://www.timesnownews.com/technology-science/article/apple-opting-for-cheaper-battery-parts-to-cut-costs-on-5g-iphone-12-analyst-ming-chi-kuo/640657
https://techlog360.com/apple-will-use-cheaper-parts-in-the-iphone-12/

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 17:53 schrieb Java Jive:

> On 24/09/2021 16:35, Alan Baker wrote:
>> Other than innovations in software to make better pictures.
>>
>> Visit Patently Apple some time.
>
> None of this is answer to the accusation of vendor lock-in which is the
> salient point to which you were replying, so this is simply pro-Apple
> bigotry, at the same level of useless irrelevance with the anti-EU
> bigotry of others.

+1
Baker is a notorious Troll and undifferentiated Apple-lickspittle.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 18:10 schrieb Alan Baker:

It is quite correct. Others have taken the lead long time ago.

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 9:34 a.m., Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 24.09.21 um 17:35 schrieb Alan Baker:
>> On 2021-09-24 4:34 a.m., Rob wrote:
>>> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Apple has warned such a move would harm innovation.
>>>
>>> Fortunately the EU can resist such nonsense and force Apple to
>>> change it. It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful
>>> innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.
>>>
>>
>> You mean other than coming up with the most efficient and powerful
>> processors used in phones; so powerful that they're now used for Macs as
>> well.
>
> Off topic

So it's not off topic for Rob to claim Apple hasn't produced innovation...

...just to counter his argument.

Got it.

>
>> Other than innovations in software to make better pictures.
>
> Certainly not Apple.
> Others have long taken the lead.

Oh, so it's not "off topic" for you to counter my statements.

Got it.

And you're wrong.

[Alan Baker]

Sorry, but that's "off topic".

Oh, wait!

It's NEVER "off topic" to bash Apple!

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 24.09.21 um 18:13 schrieb Alan Baker:

> On 2021-09-24 9:00 a.m., Rob wrote:
>>
>> And to scan the pictures on user's devices to see if they match
>> some pattern...
>
> It's a whole lot more than that.

It is a hole, or even a backdoor?

>> What about innovating devices to the point where they can no longer
>> be repaired, and making sure that any attempt to do so is hindered
>> by unobtainium parts, serialized parts that cannot be swapped, etc.
>> Also one of those worthwile Apple innovations!

The only innovation is to get the fence higher and higher ...

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 9:37 a.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> AJL <noe...@none.com> asked
>> Wireless charging time depends on the phone and the charger.
>> I'm an overnight charger so have never had a problem.
>
> Nobody puts crappier batteries in a smartphone than does Apple.
> And Apple has _never_ put the _correct_ iPhone 12 charger in any iPhone box!
>
> In contrast...
>
> My free Samsung Galaxy A32 5G came with a huge 5AH battery.
> And the charger in the box is the _correct_ fast charger for that phone!

What makes it "correct"?

>
>>> There's another downside to wireless charging. It is very much harder
>>> to charge and use your phone at the same time.
>>
>> If you're a 24/7 user I can perhaps see the problem. But for me it's
>> much easier to just lift the ringing phone from the wireless charger and
>> start talking and walking, not being tied to a wall...
>
> I bought an iPhone 12 mini for half price at the same time that I received
> the handful of free Samsung Galaxy A32 5G phones and guess what?

The Galaxy A32 is 36% heavier than the iPhone 12 mini?

It has a battery more than twice as large as the iPhone's?

It can't do wireless charging at all?

What else?

>
> *The iPhone 12 is _always_ dead* (the Galaxy last for days and days).

You're lying.

>
> Galaxy:
> 1. Fast charger in the box
> 2. Huge battery in the phone
>
> iPhone 12:
> 1. No charger (so you're stuck 100% with the _wrong_ charger!)
> 2. Cheap puny battery in the phone

So why not use the Galaxy charger?

[Alan Baker]

Keep drinking that koolaid!

[Robin Goodfellow]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> asked

> None of this is answer to the accusation of vendor lock-in which is the
> salient point to which you were replying, so this is simply pro-Apple
> bigotry, at the same level of useless irrelevance with the anti-EU
> bigotry of others.

IMHO, you are correct that it's all about what you call "vendor lock-in".

IMHO, Apple's strategy is to lock the user into fixing the problems Apple
_creates_ using Apple products as much as Apple can force you to do it.

IMHO...
1. Apple promotes AppleCare which is the most expensive warranty(1)
2. Apple advertised using the wrong charger can/will electrocute(2) you.
3. And yet, Apple has _never_ supplied the correct charger(3) in the box!
4. Worse, Apple severely warns people about replicate lightning cables(4)
5. And Apple is on record for _refusing_ to honor the warranty (5)
6. Apple lied when telling us _why_ they removed charging functionality (6)
--
(1) To own an iPhone is to live in fear.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/why-is-applecare-so-much-more-expensive-for-iphones.2266655/
(2) Apple made a big deal saying any non Apple charger can kill you
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/apple-replacing-fake-iphone-chargers-after-electric-shock-death-1.1313112
(3) The correct charger for the iPhone 12 has _never_ been supplied by Apple
in _any_ iPhone box ever sold which means that if you do what Apple
recommends, which is use your old charger from your trade-in phone, it will
_never_ be the correct charger for the iPhone 12 speeds you paid for.
https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/no-charger-in-the-box-everything-you-need-to-know-about-charging-the-iphone
(4) If the cable manufacturer doesn't pay Apple for certification, it's a
replicate cable in Apple's mind. <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204566>
(5) The warranty will _not_ be honored by Apple if you use the wrong
charger.
https://www.idropnews.com/news/brazilian-regulator-fines-apple-2-million-for-failing-to-provide-chargers-with-the-iphone/154774/
(6) Nobody lies like Apple lies and intelligent people see through it.
https://www.gsmarena.com/brazilian_proconsumer_agency_doesnt_buy_apples_reason_for_removing_chargers_from_new_iphones-news-46561.php

[Robin Goodfellow]

Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> asked

> Baker is a notorious Troll and undifferentiated Apple-lickspittle.

Alan Baker is plonked by EVERYONE already (along with Snit & Dustin).

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 9:57 a.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> asked
>> None of this is answer to the accusation of vendor lock-in which is the
>> salient point to which you were replying, so this is simply pro-Apple
>> bigotry, at the same level of useless irrelevance with the anti-EU
>> bigotry of others.
>
> IMHO, you are correct that it's all about what you call "vendor lock-in".
>
> IMHO, Apple's strategy is to lock the user into fixing the problems Apple
> _creates_ using Apple products as much as Apple can force you to do it.
>
> IMHO...
> 1. Apple promotes AppleCare which is the most expensive warranty(1)

Every manufacturer / seller tries to get you to buy expensive warranties.

> 2. Apple advertised using the wrong charger can/will electrocute(2) you.

Cite, please!

> 3. And yet, Apple has _never_ supplied the correct charger(3) in the box!

Apple supplies chargers with many of its products...

...and many different chargers are correct for Apple's products even if
they're not from Apple.

> 4. Worse, Apple severely warns people about replicate lightning cables(4)

Cite, please!

> 5. And Apple is on record for _refusing_ to honor the warranty (5)

Cite, please!

> 6. Apple lied when telling us _why_ they removed charging functionality (6)

Cite, please!

[Alan Baker]

LOL!

[Tweed]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/09/2021 16:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>>
>> On 24/09/2021 17.16, Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>

>>>> On 24/09/2021 15:39, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There is absolutely nothing to stop you plugging an iPhone into a USB-A
>>>>> charger and their later models can be plugged into a USB-C charger.
>>>>> Enforcing connector standardisation at the phone end is daft.

>>>>
>>>> Why? Lots of other such things are standardised, why not that? I'm
>>>> still waiting for the EU to standardise book sizes. Have you ever tried
>>>> to pack a trunk with books, all of which are different sizes?
>>>
>>> Standardisation is only useful when it serves a purpose that vastly
>>> outweighs any of the potential downsides.
>

> Why 'vastly', surely all that's needed is that the benefits outweigh the
> disadvantages?
>
> Do you really want to return to a world where all the networking gear
> has manufacturer-specific connectors and protocols that aren't
> interoperable? Or one where each manufacturer has its own proprietary
> format for a USB-stick that no other machines can read? Etc, etc.
>
>> And it does :-)
>
> Exactly!
>

The example you give is where vastly is appropriate.
Let’s take another example. Why not enforce a standard car tyre, all the
same size. Would cut down on inventory, storage space, make obtaining
spares more rapid, would make pricing more transparent. So lots of
advantages, but it doesn’t outweigh the disadvantages.

An iPhone *will* charge from a standard USB-A/C charger. It doesn’t require
you to throw anything away nor lock you into a particular vendor’s charger.
The charge cables are obtainable at the same price as ones with a micro USB
phone end. (Lidl, for example sold both at the same price).

[Robin Goodfellow]

Rob <nom...@example.com> asked

> What about innovating devices to the point where they can no longer
> be repaired, and making sure that any attempt to do so is hindered
> by unobtainium parts, serialized parts that cannot be swapped, etc.
> Also one of those worthwile Apple innovations!

Innovation, to Apple, is crippling the iPhone so that you _must_ buy back,
one by one, the myriad things Apple removed or restricted in the device.

In addition to scanning messages and images on your own device (thereby
becoming an active arm of law enforcement) and the other Apple "innovations"
you mentioned, Apple pioneered the removal of the charger in the box.

At the same time Apple tells you to use "any old charger" where the only
practical charger is the one that came in the box with the iPhone you traded
in.

But _that_ charger is the _wrong_ charger for the iPhone 12 because Apple
has _never_ supplied the correct charger with _any_ iPhone ever sold.

So you'll _never_ get the charging speeds you paid for and which Apple
advertises you'll get.

Worse, Apple won't honor the warranty if you use the wrong charger and if
that wrong charger damages your iPhone (even going so far as to highly
advertise that the wrong charger can electrocute you!).

Even if you pay for the very expensive AppleCare, Apple can and will
_refuse_ to honor your warranty (Brazil proved this already for us)
if that wrong charger doesn't charge your phone.

The _only_ "correct" charger Apple ever sold in the box is for an iPad,
which means Apple is asking you to do the ridilous (unacceptably so!)
juggling of someone elses' charger just so that you can charge your iPhone
every day?

Nobody traded in that expensive iPad for that expensive iPhone, so the claim
stands firm that Apple's suggestion is so ridiculous, that, as you noted,
it's "innovation" to the morons like Alan Baker.

Innovation, to Apple, is crippling the iPhone so that you _must_ buy back,
one by one, the myriad things Apple removed or restricted in the device.

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 10:06 a.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> Rob <nom...@example.com> asked
>> What about innovating devices to the point where they can no longer
>> be repaired, and making sure that any attempt to do so is hindered
>> by unobtainium parts, serialized parts that cannot be swapped, etc.
>> Also one of those worthwile Apple innovations!
>
> Innovation, to Apple, is crippling the iPhone so that you _must_ buy back,
> one by one, the myriad things Apple removed or restricted in the device.

This is a lie.

>
> In addition to scanning messages and images on your own device (thereby
> becoming an active arm of law enforcement) and the other Apple "innovations"
> you mentioned, Apple pioneered the removal of the charger in the box.

This is a lie.

>
> At the same time Apple tells you to use "any old charger" where the only
> practical charger is the one that came in the box with the iPhone you traded
> in.

This is a lie.

>
> But _that_ charger is the _wrong_ charger for the iPhone 12 because Apple
> has _never_ supplied the correct charger with _any_ iPhone ever sold.

Interesting you limit it to "any IPHONE"...

>
> So you'll _never_ get the charging speeds you paid for and which Apple
> advertises you'll get.

A lie.

>
> Worse, Apple won't honor the warranty if you use the wrong charger and if
> that wrong charger damages your iPhone (even going so far as to highly
> advertise that the wrong charger can electrocute you!).

A lie.

>
> Even if you pay for the very expensive AppleCare, Apple can and will
> _refuse_ to honor your warranty (Brazil proved this already for us)
> if that wrong charger doesn't charge your phone.

A lie.

>
> The _only_ "correct" charger Apple ever sold in the box is for an iPad,
> which means Apple is asking you to do the ridilous (unacceptably so!)
> juggling of someone elses' charger just so that you can charge your iPhone
> every day?

A lie.

>
> Nobody traded in that expensive iPad for that expensive iPhone, so the claim
> stands firm that Apple's suggestion is so ridiculous, that, as you noted,
> it's "innovation" to the morons like Alan Baker.

So if you have that iPad, you still have its charger.. ...and you can
use it for both devices!

>
> Innovation, to Apple, is crippling the iPhone so that you _must_ buy back,
> one by one, the myriad things Apple removed or restricted in the device.

You're simply a liar.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> asked
> Many phones and other devices aren't supplied with chargers anyway

Almost every (if not every) "statistic" from the Apple bigots is dead wrong.
It's amazing actually, how fantastically _ignorant_ these Apple bigots are.

Phones from 2019 to current (and still available): 1389
<https://www.gsmarena.com/search.php3?nYearMin=2019&sAvailabilities=1>

With FM radio: 832
With 3.5mm headphone jack: 1072
<https://www.gsmarena.com/search.php3?nYearMin=2019&chkFMradio=selected&sAvailabilities=1>

Run that search for "chargers in the box" and report back to us please.
HINT: Almost _none_ aren't supplied with the right charger in the box.

[Alan Baker]

Now let's put it in the same price bracket as iPhones.

The least expensive current iPhone is the iPhone SE at $399 USD.

There are 366 phones available at that price (actually $405) or higher.

<https://www.gsmarena.com/search.php3?nYearMin=2019&nPriceMin=350&sAvailabilities=1>

Of those:

only 99 have FM radios

only 137 have 3.5mm jacks

And since "chargers in the box" is a TEXT search, it's unlikely to
return meaningful results at all.

But you knew that, right, Liar?

[Martin Brown]

On 24/09/2021 17:03, Tweed wrote:
> Let's take another example. Why not enforce a standard car tyre

Car tires adhere to more standards than you seem to be aware of.
The outside of the tire has all sorts of standards stamped on it.
Even the requirement for a dash air pressure monitor is standardized.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Alan Baker]

Sorry, but others have said it better than I:

'These E.U. meddlers have indeed been clamoring for this legislation
since 2009 — Apple didn’t pick that date out of the air. At the time,
iPhones used 30-pin iPod USB 1 adapters and most other phones used
adapters like Micro-USB and (gag) Mini-USB. You don’t have to be a
computer engineer to look back at your lifetime and realize that
computer plugs and adapters keep getting smaller and better. Do they
really think no one is going to come up with an adapter better than
USB-C? Ever?

And don’t even start with any sort of argument that legislation like
this won’t impede progress, but will instead force the industry to work
together via committee to agree upon new better standards in a prompt
fashion. Almost everything that goes through such committees takes years
longer than one company can do on its own, and comes out worse — often
far worse. Look at all the horrendously shitty USB plugs the USB
consortium has come up with over the years.'

Apple came up with the Lightning connector back when the other USB
choices were crappy. It was in every way a better connector than the
other available choices.

USB-C is the first USB connector simply to be AS GOOD as Lightning...

...but it's not any better.

But if you lock everyone into providing a USB-C connector on every device...

...how will you ever move beyond it?

[Tweed]

But there isn’t *one* car tyre size. Adhering to standards is a different
matter.

[nospam]

In article <sikkpg$kif$4...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> >> When manufacturers are forced to follow a standard, that means that
> >> everything will just inter-operate and you can charge your phone from
> >> the charger of your wife's phone. That is not what Apple wants, Apple
> >> wants your wife to buy an Apple phone as well, or you to buy sufficient
> >> chargers so that you always have one nearby even when you forgot to
> >> bring it. That is what they call innovation, and what others call
> >> waste of resources.

> >
> > apple doesn't care what charger someone uses. any charger that is usb-a
> > or usb-c will work, same as android and many other devices.
>
> Stupid. A charger system always has two ends.

one end of the charger is usb-a or usb-c and the other end is a mains
plug.

iphones can use *any* charger that is usb compliant.

how about standardizing mains power outlets. those who travel
internationally need to carry a bag of adapters for all of the
different outlets in the world and also deal with 50/60hz and different
voltages.

[nospam]

In article <sil16k...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
<th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> And note that - as the article mentions - "New models of the iPad and
> MacBook use USB-C charging ports". So much for "Apple has warned such a
> move [to USB-C charging ports] would harm innovation.". Apparently iPads
> and MacBooks don't need "innovation".

phones and computers have different use cases, plus there are numerous
hardware devices that connect directly to the phone.

[nospam]

In article <siks9e$gta$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Java Jive

<ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

> >>
> >> It has been a long time since Apple introduced useful

> >> innovation, lately they have mainly promoted vendor lock-in.
> >
> > You mean other than coming up with the most efficient and powerful
> > processors used in phones; so powerful that they're now used for Macs as
> > well.
> >

> > Other than innovations in software to make better pictures.
> >

> > Visit Patently Apple some time.
>

> None of this is answer to the accusation of vendor lock-in which is the
> salient point to which you were replying, so this is simply pro-Apple
> bigotry, at the same level of useless irrelevance with the anti-EU
> bigotry of others.

there is no vendor lock-in. lightning cables are available from many
third parties and any usb-a or usb-c charger will work, or go wireless
with any qi pad.

[Alan Baker]

Hey! No using obvious facts in rebuttal! That's NOT FAIR!

I bought a pack of 5 Lightning cables to use around the house and in my
vehicles (2x3' 2x6' 1x10') for $28CAD!

Oh, the humanity!

[RonTheGuy]

On Sep 24, 2021, nospam wrote
(in article<news:240920211335327790%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

> there is no vendor lock-in. lightning cables are available from many
> third parties and any usb-a or usb-c charger will work, or go wireless
> with any qi pad.

How do you buy a lightning cable whose maker didn't have to pay Apple first?

Ron, the humblest guy in town.

[Alan Baker]

Why would you care who gets paid what?

Isn't all that matters that one can buy it for a reasonable price?

Or is that too logical?

[nospam]

In article <98g2qer4...@news.solani.org>, RonTheGuy

<r...@null.invalid> wrote:

> > there is no vendor lock-in. lightning cables are available from many
> > third parties and any usb-a or usb-c charger will work, or go wireless
> > with any qi pad.
>
> How do you buy a lightning cable whose maker didn't have to pay Apple first?

how do you buy a usb-c cable whose maker didn't have to pay the usb
consortium first?

it also doesn't matter since the price of a lightning cable is about
the same as a usb-c cable for similar quality.

[Robin Goodfellow]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> asked

> iphones can use *any* charger that is usb compliant.

This isn't true because of the salient facts nospam is ignorant of...
(It's actually shocking how fantastically _ignorant_ nospam always is!)

We already gave cites showing Apple refuses to honor the warranty if you use
the "wrong" charger (and if that wrong charger damages your iPhone).

We already gave cites showing Apple has _never_ supplied the correct charger
in any iPhone box ever sold in Apple's entire history.

The _only_ charger that is correct that came in the box from Apple will be
for a device that was NOT the traded in device (in 100% of the cases!).

That means you have to _share_ that charger among two devices, where one
device (the iPhone 12 is always dead - and yes - ask me how I know)?
<https://i.postimg.cc/YC1B906F/tmopromo01.jpg>

Worse, it's entirely likely you travel or that the other device is used
differently or that the other device is owned by a family member so what
Apple is asking you to do is entirely ridiculous.

Even Brazil said so when they fined Apple millions of dollars for Apple's
brazen lies about _why_ Apple removed basic functionality from the box.

In the end, it's always the same no matter what excuse nospam comes up with.

Innovation, to Apple, is crippling the iPhone so that you _must_ buy back,
one by one, the myriad things Apple removed or restricted in the device.

[Alan Baker]

On 2021-09-24 10:51 a.m., Robin Goodfellow wrote:
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> asked
>> iphones can use *any* charger that is usb compliant.
>
> This isn't true because of the salient facts nospam is ignorant of...
> (It's actually shocking how fantastically _ignorant_ nospam always is!)

That is true.

>
> We already gave cites showing Apple refuses to honor the warranty if you use
> the "wrong" charger (and if that wrong charger damages your iPhone).

Nope. You have never ever given such a cite.

>
> We already gave cites showing Apple has _never_ supplied the correct charger
> in any iPhone box ever sold in Apple's entire history.

Only by a carefully limited argumentt.

>
> The _only_ charger that is correct that came in the box from Apple will be
> for a device that was NOT the traded in device (in 100% of the cases!).

Which means you'd still HAVE the charger.

>
> That means you have to _share_ that charger among two devices, where one
> device (the iPhone 12 is always dead - and yes - ask me how I know)?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/YC1B906F/tmopromo01.jpg>

You're lying?

>
> Worse, it's entirely likely you travel or that the other device is used
> differently or that the other device is owned by a family member so what
> Apple is asking you to do is entirely ridiculous.

Random bullshit speculation.

>
> Even Brazil said so when they fined Apple millions of dollars for Apple's
> brazen lies about _why_ Apple removed basic functionality from the box.

Quote them.

>
> In the end, it's always the same no matter what excuse nospam comes up with.
>
> Innovation, to Apple, is crippling the iPhone so that you _must_ buy back,
> one by one, the myriad things Apple removed or restricted in the device.

Liar!

[Martin Brown]

On 24/09/2021 17:32, Tweed wrote:
>> Why not enforce a standard car tyre

> But there isn't *one* car tyre size.
> Adhering to standards is a different matter.

Your argument based on size is nonsensical.

Tires adhere to plenty of wheel fitment and performance standards.
You're looking only at a meaningless size standard.

Your argument only holds valid of you are telling us you read that the EU is
telling Apple to make all the cables adhere to a length/thickness standard.

They're not dealing with size.

You need to rethink your ideas to propose an argument that makes sense.
The EU is NOT trying to enforce a cable length & thickness standard.

Are they?
--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[RonTheGuy]

On Sep 24, 2021, nospam wrote

(in article<news:240920211346307254%nos...@nospam.invalid>):

>> How do you buy a lightning cable whose maker didn't have to pay Apple first?
>
> how do you buy a usb-c cable whose maker didn't have to pay the usb
> consortium first?

Do you have a cite comparing USB consortium charges per USB-C vs lightning?

[John Doe]

The subject line is easy to understand. It implies USB-C charging
ports on devices. That's what the "phones" means.

Pointless semantics...

--
Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.mixmin.net!news2.arglkargh.de!news.karotte.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
> From: Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid>
> Newsgroups: uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android
> Subject: Re: EU rules to force USB-C chargers for all phones
> Date: 24 Sep 2021 15:17:17 GMT
> Organization: NOYB
> Lines: 57
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>
> Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> > In article <slrnskrhjr...@xs9.xs4all.nl>, Rob

>> > <nom...@example.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> When manufacturers are forced to follow a standard, that means that
>> >> everything will just inter-operate and you can charge your phone from
>> >> the charger of your wife's phone. That is not what Apple wants, Apple
>> >> wants your wife to buy an Apple phone as well, or you to buy sufficient
>> >> chargers so that you always have one nearby even when you forgot to
>> >> bring it. That is what they call innovation, and what others call
>> >> waste of resources.
>> >
>> > apple doesn't care what charger someone uses. any charger that is usb-a
>> > or usb-c will work, same as android and many other devices.
>> >
>>

>> There?s a lot of misinformation written about Apple phones. Although they
>> have a lightning connector they supply a lead that fits into a standard USB
>> connector. Earlier phones had a lightning to USB-A lead. Later phones have
>> lightning to USB-C leads supplied (although those phones will still charge
>> with an older lightning to USB-A cable, so you don?t have to throw any of
>> your stuff away). Thus you can charge your phone from any standard USB
>> socketed charger.
>
> No, there isn't any "misinformation". But there *is* dodging/diverting
> from AppleSeeds like nospam.
>
> These EU rules are not about the plug/socket on the *charger* side, but
> about the socket on the *device* side, the 'charging port '.
>
> Yes, these 'journalists' often get the 'details' wrong, and that's
> also the case in the article mentioned in the OP: "EU rules to force
> USB-C chargers for all phones". They don't force USB-C *chargers*, they
> force USB-C *charging*/*charging ports*.
>
> At least at one point in the article, they get it (mostly) right:
>
> "The changes would apply to the charging port on the device body,
> whereas the end of the cable connecting to a plug could be USB-C or
> USB-A."
>
> (See also the two paragraphs befor that paragraph.)
>
>> Lightning is a much more robust connector than the mini/micro usb sockets
>> found on other phones.
>
> Most if not all somewhat recent phones have USB-C sockets, not
> Micro-USB. (I don't think I've ever seen a Mini-USB port on a
> *smart*phone.)

>
> And note that - as the article mentions - "New models of the iPad and
> MacBook use USB-C charging ports". So much for "Apple has warned such a
> move [to USB-C charging ports] would harm innovation.". Apparently iPads
> and MacBooks don't need "innovation".
>

> [...]
>
>

[knuttle]

On 9/24/2021 9:46 AM, nospam wrote:
> it also doesn't matter since the price of a lightning cable is about
> the same as a usb-c cable for similar quality.

Assuming the same manufacturer process, if the cable is the same price, and
if the royalties are more, then the quality suffers in the lightning cables.

[Alan Baker]

Why is one necessary?

Are Lightning cables prohibitively expensive?

No.

[Alan Baker]

And it's a straw man.

Is the cost of a Lightning cable any sort of barrier to the cost of
owning an iPhone?

No.

[nospam]

In article <sil4kp$5p4$1...@dont-email.me>, knuttle

bad assumption.

[Alan Baker]

The fact is that prices aren't the same.

The difference in price is just no real barrier.

[Edward Hernandez]

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sdhn7c$pkp$4...@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn't even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sg3kr7$qt5$1...@dont-email.me>:

> The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
> breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is > CLUELESS...

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another
incorectly formatted USENET posting on Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:13:33 -0000
(UTC) in message-id <sil4gd$8p1$8...@dont-email.me>.

[nospam]

In article <sil57d$4e7$9...@dont-email.me>, Alan Baker

<notony...@no.no.no.no> wrote:

> >>> it also doesn't matter since the price of a lightning cable is about
> >>> the same as a usb-c cable for similar quality.
> >>
> >> Assuming the same manufacturer process, if the cable is the same price, and
> >> if the royalties are more, then the quality suffers in the lightning
> >> cables.
> >
> > bad assumption.
> >
>
> The fact is that prices aren't the same.

i said about the same, not exactly the same.

any difference in price is negligible and not in any way an obstacle.

lightning cables are not necessarily more expensive either.

> The difference in price is just no real barrier.

correct.

[John Doe]

A nym-shifting stalker, usually "Corvid" also "Charger Boy", still sore from being spanked in (sci.electronics.repair)...

see also...
=?UTF-8?Q?C=c3=b6rvid?= <b...@ckbirds.org>
=?UTF-8?B?8J+QriBDb3dzIGFyZSBOaWNlIPCfkK4=?= <ni...@cows.moo>
Banders <sn...@mailchute.com>
Covid-19 <alway...@message.header>
Corvid <b...@ckbirds.net>
Corvid <b...@ckbirds.org>
Cows Are Nice <co...@nice.moo>
Cows are nice <m...@cows.org>
Cows are Nice <ni...@cows.moo>
dogs <do...@home.com>
Edward H. <dtga...@gmail.com>
Edward Hernandez <dtga...@gmail.com>
Great Pumpkin <pum...@patch.net>
Jose Curvo <jcu...@mymail.com>
Local Favorite <how2r...@palomar.info>
Peter Weiner <dtga...@gmail.com>
Sea <fres...@coast.org>
Standard Poodle <stan...@poodle.com>
triangles <bu...@home.com>
and others...

--
Edward Hernandez <dtga...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!aioe.org!y9Vaf41kd9oMpSe1dw8cPA.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
> From: Edward Hernandez <dtga...@gmail.com>

> Newsgroups: uk.telecom.mobile,comp.mobile.android
> Subject: Re: EU rules to force USB-C chargers for all phones

> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:37:29 -0000 (UTC)
> Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
> Message-ID: <sil5t9$10gi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>
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> Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="33298"; posting-host="y9Vaf41kd9oMpSe1dw8cPA.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="ab...@aioe.org";
> X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
> Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org uk.telecom.mobile:39468 comp.mobile.android:84227

[MB]

On 24/09/2021 18:31, Alan Baker wrote:
> 'These E.U. meddlers have indeed been clamoring for this legislation
> since 2009 

Probably one of the senior Eurocrats got caught out after forgetting his
charger and has had a bee in his bonnet about it since then.

[MB]

On 24/09/2021 18:03, Tweed wrote:
> The example you give is where vastly is appropriate.
> Let’s take another example. Why not enforce a standard car tyre, all the
> same size. Would cut down on inventory, storage space, make obtaining
> spares more rapid, would make pricing more transparent. So lots of
> advantages, but it doesn’t outweigh the disadvantages.

It seems to be thanks to the EU that most cars no longer carry a proper
spare tyre and even if you buy one, there is nowhere to put it because
the space in the boot will only take a silly space saver tyre.

[MB]

On 24/09/2021 17:18, AJL wrote:
> Course. But if you're going to be tied to a wall why not just use a
> landline. Battery never goes dead...;)


I just wish radio programmes that take calls from listeners, reporters
etc would learn that. I get fed up with hearing on Today, WATO etc an
apology about the line after they have wasted lots of time trying to
speak to someone. Should be a rule that if the mobile connection fails
once then they switch to a proper landline.

[VanguardLH]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

> And if the EU do it, most probably everywhere else will as well, because
> they are among the biggest trading blocks in the world, and likely it
> won't make economic sense for manufacturers to make phones with
> different charging sockets around the world if they don't have to ...
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809

>
> "EU rules to force USB-C chargers for all phones
>

> Manufacturers will be forced to create a universal charging solution for
> phones and small electronic devices, under a new rule proposed by the
> European Commission (EC).
>
> The aim is to reduce waste by encouraging consumers to re-use existing
> chargers when buying a new device.

This makes it look like dolts at the EU think all chargers are the same
just because they have the same connector, and that any device can be
plugged into any charger.

[nospam]

In article <10u0nrbc...@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH>
wrote:

> This makes it look like dolts at the EU think all chargers are the same
> just because they have the same connector, and that any device can be
> plugged into any charger.

that's what usb compliance is for.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 24/09/2021 18.29, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 24.09.21 um 17:31 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>> On 24/09/2021 13.50, MB wrote:
>>> Will the EU police be kicking doors down to check people are not using
>>> an unapproved lead?
>>
>> Of course not. What an stupid idea.
>
> I think it is not helpful to feed ignorant and anonymous Trolls.

Well, I don't know him, and same as I took him seriously others may do
as well.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 24/09/2021 19.03, Tweed wrote:
> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>> On 24/09/2021 16:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>
>>> On 24/09/2021 17.16, Tweed wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24/09/2021 15:39, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is absolutely nothing to stop you plugging an iPhone into a USB-A
>>>>>> charger and their later models can be plugged into a USB-C charger.
>>>>>> Enforcing connector standardisation at the phone end is daft.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? Lots of other such things are standardised, why not that? I'm
>>>>> still waiting for the EU to standardise book sizes. Have you ever tried
>>>>> to pack a trunk with books, all of which are different sizes?
>>>>
>>>> Standardisation is only useful when it serves a purpose that vastly
>>>> outweighs any of the potential downsides.
>>
>> Why 'vastly', surely all that's needed is that the benefits outweigh the
>> disadvantages?
>>
>> Do you really want to return to a world where all the networking gear
>> has manufacturer-specific connectors and protocols that aren't
>> interoperable? Or one where each manufacturer has its own proprietary
>> format for a USB-stick that no other machines can read? Etc, etc.
>>
>>> And it does :-)
>>
>> Exactly!

>>
>
> The example you give is where vastly is appropriate.
> Let’s take another example. Why not enforce a standard car tyre, all the
> same size. Would cut down on inventory, storage space, make obtaining
> spares more rapid, would make pricing more transparent. So lots of
> advantages, but it doesn’t outweigh the disadvantages.
>

> An iPhone *will* charge from a standard USB-A/C charger. It doesn’t require
> you to throw anything away nor lock you into a particular vendor’s charger.
> The charge cables are obtainable at the same price as ones with a micro USB
> phone end. (Lidl, for example sold both at the same price).

The mandate is not about the charger side, but the connector side on the
phone. The phone has to charge with an USB-C.

Not a micro USB.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan Baker]

And the mandate is stupid and ignorant.

Cables are inexpensive.