4G Router in place broadband via landline

[Roger Mills]

I need a constant internet facility at my holiday flat in order to use
the Hive setup to remotely monitor the temperature and to turn the
heating on prior to each visit.

I'm currently paying for a landline plus ADSL broadband at a total cost
of about £250 p.a. (and the ADSL will go up in price when the current
contract ends). We have an Evening and Weekend calls package for "free",
but daytime outgoing calls are made on a mobile, and E&WE calls could
easily be, too. We get a few incoming calls - but most people seem to
have inclusive packages which include calls to mobiles these days, so
our friends shouldn't be too upset if we got rid of the landline, so
that they had to ring a mobile instead.

I'm wondering about getting something like this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/D-Link-DWR-921-Unlocked-Broadband-Ethernet-Black/dp/B00BN36NMM/ref=psdc_430579031_t2_B016ZWXYXG?th=1
to provide 4G-based broadband. Since it has ethernet ports, it should be
possible to connect the Hive hub - which can't use WiFi - to it.

Do any of you have any experience of getting rid of a landline and using
something like this?

Are there any gotchas when it comes to data SIMs? For example, PlusNet
told me in an online chat that their SIMs can be used in phones or
tablets but not routers - but I'm not sure that the agent knew what he
was talking about.

Since our data use is fairly small - no more than 1 or 2 GB per month -
something like this looks promising:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Three-Mobile-Pay-Broadband-Data-Black/dp/B01M3VJ2B2/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/261-6344032-7443464?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01M3VJ2B2&pd_rd_r=07b2b9f8-4351-48ea-b0a0-406b0067cbeb&pd_rd_w=ROFqg&pd_rd_wg=SlXJE&pf_rd_p=dcf35746-0212-418b-a148-30395d107b2d&pf_rd_r=81DHJFHDPN1WZDP6N5AM&psc=1&refRID=81DHJFHDPN1WZDP6N5AM
since the data doesn't expire for 24 months. There is a reasonable '3'
signal at the flat. Any reason why I couldn't use one of these SIMs -
and then top it up or replace when the data is used up?
--
Cheers,
Roger

[Robert]

I would have thought any of the mobile wifi hotspots would do, look for
huawei mi-fi dongle.You are not worried about 4G.
Power off a USB adapter put a "Three" network free 200MB per month SIM in.
https://3g.co.uk/three-data-reward-sim
200 MB per month should be plenty to check the Hive etc .
If you actually want to use the wifi when you are there just put £5 top
up on.

[Unknown]

Roger Mills laid this down on his screen :

> Are there any gotchas when it comes to data SIMs? For example, PlusNet told
> me in an online chat that their SIMs can be used in phones or tablets but not
> routers - but I'm not sure that the agent knew what he was talking about.

Prior to my phone having 4Gb of data per month and my phone having a
personal hotspot facility, I used something similar with a Three data
sim to provide my laptop with access, whilst away in my tourer caravan.
I put a sim in it and it provided wifi access.

From what I read, Plusnet have no objections to a phone being used as
an hotspot and there is zero difference between an hotspot and your
mobile router.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 21:21:19 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

> There is a reasonable '3' signal at the flat.

A 4G '3' signal? I'm on '3' via an MNVO, here the '3' signal is 3G
only. Other places I get 4G so it's not a restriction due to the
MNVO.

Another gotcha is that the SIM contract will need to allow
"tethering", so other devices can use the data link.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Unknown]

Robert expressed precisely :

> Power off a USB adapter put a "Three" network free 200MB per month SIM in.
> https://3g.co.uk/three-data-reward-sim
> 200 MB per month should be plenty to check the Hive etc .
> If you actually want to use the wifi when you are there just put £5 top up
> on.

That is a good deal, doesn't get any better than completely free, but..

There are much cheaper ways to have more data, than the £5 topup - take
a look on ebay for Three data only sims. They do not begin to be used,
do not expire until you insert them. I used to buy a few and keep them
in the drawer of my caravan.

So use the free sim whilst not in your caravan, then when you know you
need a bulk of data use a bigger, paid for sim.

All depends on what networks you can access at the location.

[Roger Mills]

But most mi-fi dongles I have seen only provide wifi. You can't connect
to them with ethernet - which is what the Hive hub needs. Is this one
any different?

> Power off a USB adapter put a "Three" network free 200MB per month SIM in.
> https://3g.co.uk/three-data-reward-sim
> 200 MB per month should be plenty to check the Hive etc .
> If you actually want to use the wifi when you are there just put £5 top
> up on.

We try to spend one week per month at the flat throughout the year,
which is when we use our 1 or 2 GB of data. I would prefer something
which I can set up and leave to get on with it - rather than faffing
about with monthly top-ups.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[Unknown]

Dave Liquorice presented the following explanation :

> Another gotcha is that the SIM contract will need to allow
> "tethering", so other devices can use the data link.

Thanks, that was the word I was looking for. Both Plusnet and Three do
permit tethering.

[Unknown]

on 18/10/2020, Roger Mills supposed :

> But most mi-fi dongles I have seen only provide wifi. You can't connect to
> them with ethernet - which is what the Hive hub needs. Is this one any
> different?

That 4G router supports 4x LAN ports and wifi access. MIFI usually only
supports wifi.

[Chris]

I don't know for sure, but you may have an issue accessing your hive via a
data SIM as they don't get a unique IP you can directly access. However, I
don't know how a hive works for remote access.

>> Power off a USB adapter put a "Three" network free 200MB per month SIM in.
>> https://3g.co.uk/three-data-reward-sim
>> 200 MB per month should be plenty to check the Hive etc .
>> If you actually want to use the wifi when you are there just put £5 top
>> up on.
>
>
> We try to spend one week per month at the flat throughout the year,
> which is when we use our 1 or 2 GB of data. I would prefer something
> which I can set up and leave to get on with it - rather than faffing
> about with monthly top-ups.

Try Smarty. You get 3GB a month for £8 and money back if you don't use all
the data.

[Graham J]

Chris wrote:
> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> I don't know for sure, but you may have an issue accessing your hive via a
> data SIM as they don't get a unique IP you can directly access. However, I
> don't know how a hive works for remote access.

Most data SIMs will give you a dynamic IP using CNAT (Carrier grade
NAT). So it's not a public IP but one issued from the carrier's private
pool.

However, things like Hive don't generally need a public IP since they
are pre-configured with the URL of their server, and it is this which
works like a piece of wire connecting your controlling device to the
Hive device.

The Hive may communicate with its server quite frequently. My sister
has a Nest (similar product to Hive) connected to the internet via a
Vigor router. I've just checked the router (because it uses a static IP
address, and I have configured it for remote management from my IP) and
can see 2 sessions for the Nest, but no traffic. However the traffic
graph suggest a few hundred bytes per second, fluctuating.

I suspect the Nest may check that the public IP is unchanged; that way
its server will know where to send enquiry packets when the need arises.
The Nest will have to keep the router's NAT tunnel open so probably it
sends a packet every second to its server.



--
Graham J

[Radio Man]

Son has a 4G box from Three he pays about 23 pm for and gets unlimited
data. It has an Ethernet port.

[Roger Mills]

On 18/10/2020 22:25, Chris wrote:
>
>
> I don't know for sure, but you may have an issue accessing your hive via a
> data SIM as they don't get a unique IP you can directly access. However, I
> don't know how a hive works for remote access.
>

One of the reviews on Amazon says that it works with a Hive. ICBW but I
think that the Hive hub initiates a dialog with its server rather than
vice versa, in which case not having a public IP address may not matter.
[The current landline-based router has a dynamic IP address anyway. I
can access it remotely using No-IP but Hive doesn't seem to need a
symbolic address for it].
--
Cheers,
Roger

[Martin Brown]

On 18/10/2020 21:21, Roger Mills wrote:

> I need a constant internet facility at my holiday flat in order to use
> the Hive setup to remotely monitor the temperature and to turn the
> heating on prior to each visit.
>
> I'm currently paying for a landline plus ADSL broadband at a total cost
> of about £250 p.a. (and the ADSL will go up in price when the current
> contract ends). We have an Evening and Weekend calls package for "free",
> but daytime outgoing calls are made on a mobile, and E&WE calls could
> easily be, too. We get a few incoming calls - but most people seem to
> have inclusive packages which include calls to mobiles these days, so
> our friends shouldn't be too upset if we got rid of the landline, so
> that they had to ring a mobile instead.
>
> I'm wondering about getting something like this:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/D-Link-DWR-921-Unlocked-Broadband-Ethernet-Black/dp/B00BN36NMM/ref=psdc_430579031_t2_B016ZWXYXG?th=1
> to provide 4G-based broadband. Since it has ethernet ports, it should be
> possible to connect the Hive hub - which can't use WiFi - to it.
>
> Do any of you have any experience of getting rid of a landline and using
> something like this?

One of my neighbours has it with EE 4G - largely because BT OR cannot
supply him with a working landline ADSL service faster than 1Mbps.
Strictly even that was very on off and mostly "off".

OR had the road closed last week for "improvements". It has made my own
internet connection less stable :( Best bit was their road block at the
exit from the village forcing 40T HGVs to reverse all the way back out!

> Are there any gotchas when it comes to data SIMs? For example, PlusNet
> told me in an online chat that their SIMs can be used in phones or
> tablets but not routers - but I'm not sure that the agent knew what he
> was talking about.

Depends how much volume of data you want to use.
ISTR he has 500GB/month for about £40.

> Since our data use is fairly small - no more than 1 or 2 GB per month -
> something like this looks promising:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Three-Mobile-Pay-Broadband-Data-Black/dp/B01M3VJ2B2/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/261-6344032-7443464?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01M3VJ2B2&pd_rd_r=07b2b9f8-4351-48ea-b0a0-406b0067cbeb&pd_rd_w=ROFqg&pd_rd_wg=SlXJE&pf_rd_p=dcf35746-0212-418b-a148-30395d107b2d&pf_rd_r=81DHJFHDPN1WZDP6N5AM&psc=1&refRID=81DHJFHDPN1WZDP6N5AM
> since the data doesn't expire for 24 months. There is a reasonable '3'
> signal at the flat. Any reason why I couldn't use one of these SIMs -
> and then top it up or replace when the data is used up?

I have used 3 data SIMs as sacrificial boosters when I have used up my
contract data allocation (BTW EE were cheaper per GB last time I looked
but has a shorter 90day or 30day timeout).

Depending on your present router you may be able to get away with a mifi
dongle plugged into the back of it and unplug the ADSL lead to force it
to fallback onto the mobile network service.

A short USB extender cable to get the dongle further from the RF noisy
router and closer to a window well may be beneficial.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[tim...]

"Radio Man" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:rmifp6$rel$1...@dont-email.me...

which is more expensive than the current LL solution


>
>
>

[tim...]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hv3mdu...@mid.individual.net...

> I need a constant internet facility at my holiday flat in order to use the
> Hive setup to remotely monitor the temperature and to turn the heating on
> prior to each visit.
>
> I'm currently paying for a landline plus ADSL broadband at a total cost of
> about £250 p.a. (and the ADSL will go up in price when the current
> contract ends).

and all this just(?) to turn the heating on before you arrive

I realise that it depends upon how well insulated the property is, but it
would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say slightly less
than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this telecommunications solution

tim

[Graham J]

tim... wrote:
[snip]

>
> and all this just(?) to turn the heating on before you arrive
>
> I realise that it depends upon how well insulated the property is, but
> it would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say slightly
> less than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this telecommunications

> solution.

In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!

Have you thought of leaving a key with a neighbour, and getting that
neighbour to turn on the heating when you ring? That way you also have
an informal security system.


--
Graham J

[Pancho]

On 18/10/2020 21:21, Roge

> There is a reasonable '3'
> signal at the flat. Any reason why I couldn't use one of these SIMs -
> and then top it up or replace when the data is used up?

I tried a long expiry '3' data sim a few years ago, amazingly cheap
compared to the competition. However, the download speed made it
unusable, often in the 300-500 Kb/s range, I only used a small fraction
of the data before I stopped using it. I'm not sure if that was due to
'3' signal strength or contention for bandwidth. I tried it in a few
different locations, miles apart, and it was useless in them all.

So I would do some '3' speed tests, at peak hours, before assuming it is
a solution.

O2 was fine (20+ Mb/s) , but only had monthly data, I would use Giff
Gaff now, which is O2 based.

[Roger Mills]

No, it's not *just* to turn the heating on! We actually live in the flat
for about 25% of the time, and need a half-way decent internet service
while we're there.

The purpose of this thread is to explore whether there's a viable way of
achieving the same thing more cheaply by using 4G technology rather than
a landline + ADSL. The only stipulation is that the internet router
needs to support ethernet connections in addition to wifi.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/10/2020 11:14, tim... wrote:

> it would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say slightly
> less than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this telecommunications
> solution

ROFLMAO!

Reminds me of a comment by a business analyst 'they said they wanted a
computerised stock control system, but really all they need is a card
index'....


--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

― Confucius

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:
> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!

What climate change would that be, then?


--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

[Roger Mills]

On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:

> tim... wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>
>> and all this just(?) to turn the heating on before you arrive
>>
>> I realise that it depends upon how well insulated the property is, but
>> it would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say
>> slightly less than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this
>> telecommunications solution.
>
> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!
>

The flat is in a converted mansion which is Grade II Listed, so the
scope for insulating as well as we would like is limited.

> Have you thought of leaving a key with a neighbour, and getting that
> neighbour to turn on the heating when you ring?  That way you also have
> an informal security system.
>

Our most reliable neighbour is also a part-time resident, so there's no
guarantee that they'll be there when needed.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[Java Jive]

On 19/10/2020 14:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:
>> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!
>
> What climate change would that be, then?

The change that's happening now, but people hard of thinking like you
keep denying.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/10/2020 14:48, Roger Mills wrote:
> The purpose of this thread is to explore whether there's a viable way of
> achieving the same thing more cheaply by using 4G technology rather than
> a landline + ADSL. The only stipulation is that the internet router
> needs to support ethernet connections in addition to wifi.

Many decent routers will support a dongle and SIM.
Mine (Draytek 2760) certainly does in a USB port.

You might find a PAYG SIM to be a superior option.


--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

[Martin Brown]

On 19/10/2020 12:33, Pancho wrote:
> On 18/10/2020 21:21, Roge
>>  There is a reasonable '3' signal at the flat. Any reason why I
>> couldn't use one of these SIMs - and then top it up or replace when
>> the data is used up?
>
> I tried a long expiry '3' data sim a few years ago, amazingly cheap
> compared to the competition. However, the download speed made it
> unusable, often in the 300-500 Kb/s range, I only used a small fraction
> of the data before I stopped using it. I'm not sure if that was due to
> '3' signal strength or contention for bandwidth. I tried it in a few
> different locations, miles apart, and it was useless in them all.

Sounds more like your choice of hardware was ill advised.

I had no trouble at all using Three PAYG data SIMs at full speed. Though
I was using a Mifi with an external high gain yagi antenna pointed at a
mast. Never had much bother getting 20+Mbps at any time of day.

Two things hurt low signal or jamming by local RF noise of which some BT
phone chargers and badly screened fast laptops seem particularly bad.
USB extender is sometimes needed to get the dongle well away from the
laptop (ie it has pathetic speed plugged directly into a USB slot).

>
> So I would do some '3' speed tests, at peak hours, before assuming it is
> a solution.
>
> O2 was fine (20+ Mb/s) , but only had monthly data, I would use Giff
> Gaff now, which is O2 based.

EE is also worth a look but I don't think they have such long expiry
data deals - but for higher monthly usage they can be OK.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Graham J]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 19/10/2020 14:48, Roger Mills wrote:
>> The purpose of this thread is to explore whether there's a viable way
>> of achieving the same thing more cheaply by using 4G technology rather
>> than a landline + ADSL. The only stipulation is that the internet
>> router needs to support ethernet connections in addition to wifi.
>
> Many decent routers will support a dongle and SIM.
> Mine (Draytek 2760) certainly does in a USB port.
>
> You might find a PAYG SIM to be a superior option.

The problem is that the dongle has to be near the router - difficult if
the only good signal is on the roof.

People like Teltonica make 4G/LTE routers which can be installed in a
waterproof housing somewhere high up. See for example:

<https://teltonika-networks.com/product/rut240/>

I know of no ethernet 4G/LTE modems but there's a clear market for
Draytek to make a cellular version of the V130 ADSL/VDSL product.



--
Graham J

[tim...]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:hv5k3l...@mid.individual.net...

> On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:
>> tim... wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>>>
>>> and all this just(?) to turn the heating on before you arrive
>>>
>>> I realise that it depends upon how well insulated the property is, but
>>> it would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say slightly
>>> less than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this telecommunications
>>> solution.
>>
>> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!
>>
>
> The flat is in a converted mansion which is Grade II Listed, so the scope
> for insulating as well as we would like is limited.

at reasonable cost perhaps

but I doubt that the listing makes it impossible

[tim...]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:hv5jpu...@mid.individual.net...

> On 19/10/2020 11:14, tim... wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hv3mdu...@mid.individual.net...
>>> I need a constant internet facility at my holiday flat in order to use
>>> the Hive setup to remotely monitor the temperature and to turn the
>>> heating on prior to each visit.
>>>
>>> I'm currently paying for a landline plus ADSL broadband at a total cost
>>> of about £250 p.a. (and the ADSL will go up in price when the current
>>> contract ends).
>>
>> and all this just(?) to turn the heating on before you arrive
>>
>> I realise that it depends upon how well insulated the property is, but it
>> would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say slightly
>> less than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this telecommunications
>> solution
>>
>> tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> No, it's not *just* to turn the heating on! We actually live in the flat
> for about 25% of the time, and need a half-way decent internet service
> while we're there.

well I suppose that depends upon how much data you use when you are there

my usage for 30 days has been 500 GB (far too much online TV)

so lets say you are more careful and need 100GB

O2 SIM Only £30 pm

I'm not an expert in getting mobile deals so I guess someone will be along
with something better

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/10/2020 17:49, Graham J wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 19/10/2020 14:48, Roger Mills wrote:
>>> The purpose of this thread is to explore whether there's a viable way
>>> of achieving the same thing more cheaply by using 4G technology
>>> rather than a landline + ADSL. The only stipulation is that the
>>> internet router needs to support ethernet connections in addition to
>>> wifi.
>>
>> Many decent routers will support a dongle and SIM.
>> Mine (Draytek 2760) certainly does in a USB port.
>>
>> You might find a PAYG SIM to be a superior option.
>
> The problem is that the dongle has to be near the router - difficult if
> the only good signal is on the roof.

Not really. I've seen dingles up on three meters of USB extender work OK

Or the router can be up there to, and the signal brought back via cat 5...

>
> People like Teltonica make 4G/LTE routers which can be installed in a
> waterproof housing somewhere high up.  See for example:
>
> <https://teltonika-networks.com/product/rut240/>
>
> I know of no ethernet 4G/LTE modems but there's a clear market for
> Draytek to make a cellular version of the V130 ADSL/VDSL product.
>
>
>


--

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

[Andy Burns]

Graham J wrote:

> I know of no ethernet 4G/LTE modems

Netgear LB2120 ?

[Andrew]

On 19/10/2020 14:58, Java Jive wrote:
> On 19/10/2020 14:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:
>>> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!
>>
>> What climate change would that be, then?
>
> The change that's happening now, but people hard of thinking like you
> keep denying.
>

Scotland would still be under 2 miles of packed ice and snow if it
wasn't for natural, cyclical climatic change, which have occured
many many times over the last 4 billion years.

[Roger Mills]

No, 100 GB is way more than I need. We mainly watch TV off air rather
than online. But we do do a lot of browsing, and send/receive a lot of
emails with large attachments. My best estimate is around 1 or 2 GB for
the one week per month when we're there. [If we needed to pay £30ppm for
a SIM it would defeat the whole object of dumping the landline!]

Hopefully, the '3' 24GB SIM would last us between one and two years. [It
expires after 2 years, anyway]
--
Cheers,
Roger

[Java Jive]

None of which alters the fact that man-made climate change is happening
right now, on top of natural climate change.

[Graham J]

What a strange product! It's a router with an Ethernet WAN port and
integrated LTE modem, which can be configured in bridge mode.

Given that most people needing this sort of product already have a
router with much greater sophistication the router and Ethernet WAN
components of the LB2120 are completely redundant.

A much better idea would have been the LTE modem in a waterproof housing
with integrated antenna, and PoE; and suitable mountings for fixing to a
pole. That way it could be mounted high up, perhap above a roof, and
cabled to a router in an equpment cabinet perhaps in a basement.


--
Graham J

[Roger Mills]

The biggest benefit would come from replacing the drafty single-glazed
sash windows with modern double glazed windows - but we ain't allowed to.

The walls are solid - so no cavities to insulate. Possibly *some* scope
for insulating the roof-space.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[Chris]

OK. Seems like it's a non-issue.

[Jimk]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> Wrote in message:

> On 19/10/2020 20:00, Andrew wrote:
>>
>> On 19/10/2020 14:58, Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19/10/2020 14:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!
>>>>
>>>> What climate change would that be, then?
>>>
>>> The change that's happening now, but people hard of thinking like you
>>> keep denying.
>>
>> Scotland would still be under 2 miles of packed ice and snow if it
>> wasn't for natural, cyclical climatic change, which have occured
>> many many times over the last 4 billion years.
>
> None of which alters the fact that man-made climate change is happening
> right now, on top of natural climate change.
>

Course it is petal
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[Java Jive]

Glad you agree!

[Chris]

Global climate has never been static and is continually changing, however,
the rate of change we are experiencing currently is unprecedented in at
least the last 800,000 years. The driver is not a natural, cyclical event,
but human-led. We are the cause and we will feel the largest consequence.

[The Natural Philosopher]

In fact there ha been less climate change over the last 70 years than in
the 70 years before it, when CO2 was allegedly not an issue.

When I ask 'what climate change' the kneejerk bigotry of climate
believers assume I am 'denying that climate change is happening'
whereas the question is genuine. What climate change? Natural climate
change that is utterly unaffected by CO2? or false climate change due to
CO2 for which no supporting evidence whatsoever exists.

--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

[Java Jive]

On 19/10/2020 23:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> In fact there ha been less climate change over the last 70 years than in
> the 70 years before it, when CO2 was allegedly not an issue.

LIE:
https://www.noaa.gov/news/2019-was-2nd-hottest-year-on-record-for-earth-say-noaa-nasa

"January 15, 2020

Earth’s warming trend continued in 2019, making it the second-hottest
year in NOAA’s 140-year climate record just behind 2016."

> When I ask 'what climate change' the kneejerk bigotry of climate
> believers assume I am 'denying that climate change is happening' whereas
> the question is genuine. What climate change? Natural climate change
> that is utterly unaffected by CO2? or false climate change due to CO2
> for which no supporting evidence whatsoever exists.

It's not a kneejerk bigotry that those familiar with your many lies
denying climate change, and about nuclear power, etc, assume that you're
trying to drag another thread off-topic, as in fact you have now done.
You've been lying about these subjects for at least a decade now, and
clearly, as above, still are.

[Chris]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 19/10/2020 22:55, Chris wrote:
>> Andrew <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On 19/10/2020 14:58, Java Jive wrote:
>>>> On 19/10/2020 14:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:
>>>>>> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!
>>>>>
>>>>> What climate change would that be, then?
>>>>
>>>> The change that's happening now, but people hard of thinking like you
>>>> keep denying.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Scotland would still be under 2 miles of packed ice and snow if it
>>> wasn't for natural, cyclical climatic change, which have occured
>>> many many times over the last 4 billion years.
>>
>> Global climate has never been static and is continually changing, however,
>> the rate of change we are experiencing currently is unprecedented in at
>> least the last 800,000 years. The driver is not a natural, cyclical event,
>> but human-led. We are the cause and we will feel the largest consequence.
>>
> In fact there ha been less climate change over the last 70 years than in
> the 70 years before it, when CO2 was allegedly not an issue.
>
> When I ask 'what climate change' the kneejerk bigotry of climate
> believers assume I am 'denying that climate change is happening'
> whereas the question is genuine. What climate change? Natural climate
> change that is utterly unaffected by CO2? or false climate change due to
> CO2 for which no supporting evidence whatsoever exists.

Neither of those are real.

[Jimk]

Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

Get it sold while it still has some value.

In twenty years (maybe less) the prohibitive cost of keeping it
warm will dwarf your £250 fret about the cost of
broadband.

[Roger Mills]

Don't worry. Since I'm in my late 70's, I'm not going to be still owning
it in 20 years time!

In actual fact, the energy costs are not that high. We're only there for
about 25% of the time, and there are other flats below and above it
which are heated for most of the time.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[The Natural Philosopher]

Bless!

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

[Roderick Stewart]

On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:14:13 +0100, "tim..." <timsn...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>
>
>"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

>news:hv3mdu...@mid.individual.net...
>> I need a constant internet facility at my holiday flat in order to use the
>> Hive setup to remotely monitor the temperature and to turn the heating on
>> prior to each visit.
>>
>> I'm currently paying for a landline plus ADSL broadband at a total cost of
>> about £250 p.a. (and the ADSL will go up in price when the current
>> contract ends).
>

>and all this just(?) to turn the heating on before you arrive
>
>I realise that it depends upon how well insulated the property is, but it
>would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say slightly less
>than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this telecommunications solution
>

>tim

Most boilers, if switched off at the boiler rather than at the supply,
so that the control circuitry is still powered, have a safety feature
that ensures they run automatically to prevent freezing if the
temperature drops below about 5 degrees.

Then your flat or house is cold when you first arrive. So what? Just
switch the heating on and it'll be cosy within half an hour.

Rod.

[tim...]

"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sretoflttrrcpts76...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:14:13 +0100, "tim..." <timsn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:hv3mdu...@mid.individual.net...
>>> I need a constant internet facility at my holiday flat in order to use
>>> the
>>> Hive setup to remotely monitor the temperature and to turn the heating
>>> on
>>> prior to each visit.
>>>
>>> I'm currently paying for a landline plus ADSL broadband at a total cost
>>> of
>>> about £250 p.a. (and the ADSL will go up in price when the current
>>> contract ends).
>>
>>and all this just(?) to turn the heating on before you arrive
>>
>>I realise that it depends upon how well insulated the property is, but it
>>would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say slightly less
>>than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this telecommunications solution
>>
>>tim
>
> Most boilers, if switched off at the boiler rather than at the supply,
> so that the control circuitry is still powered, have a safety feature
> that ensures they run automatically to prevent freezing if the
> temperature drops below about 5 degrees.

yep

but that's not a comfortable temperate to enter an empty house at 10 in the
evening

I choose 16 as a figure that bearable whist you wait for the house to warm
up, but low enough not to use up huge amounts of fuel keeping it there when
the property is unoccupied

> Then your flat or house is cold when you first arrive. So what? Just
> switch the heating on and it'll be cosy within half an hour.

not from, 5 degrees it wont

[tim...]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:hv6akn...@mid.individual.net...

> On 19/10/2020 18:01, tim... wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hv5k3l...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:
>>>> tim... wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and all this just(?) to turn the heating on before you arrive
>>>>>
>>>>> I realise that it depends upon how well insulated the property is, but
>>>>> it would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say
>>>>> slightly less than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this
>>>>> telecommunications solution.
>>>>
>>>> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!
>>>>
>>>
>>> The flat is in a converted mansion which is Grade II Listed, so the
>>> scope for insulating as well as we would like is limited.
>>
>> at reasonable cost perhaps
>>
>> but I doubt that the listing makes it impossible
>>
>>
>>
>
> The biggest benefit would come from replacing the drafty single-glazed
> sash windows with modern double glazed windows - but we ain't allowed to.

then you need to appeal

replacing with DG units on a like for like basis should be allowed. (like
for like means wood for wood, metal for metal etc)

there are people who specialise in making such like for like units. They
are not cheap.

Though obvious if your windows are medieval leaded-lights, like for like
won't be possible

And, as it's a removable item, adding secondary glazing on the inside ought
to be an allowed change

> The walls are solid - so no cavities to insulate.

agreed

requires insulation on the inside

[Jimk]

Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

> On 19/10/2020 11:14, tim... wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:hv3mdu...@mid.individual.net...
>>> I need a constant internet facility at my holiday flat in order to use
>>> the Hive setup to remotely monitor the temperature and to turn the
>>> heating on prior to each visit.
>>>
>>> I'm currently paying for a landline plus ADSL broadband at a total
>>> cost of about £250 p.a. (and the ADSL will go up in price when the
>>> current contract ends).
>>

>> and all this just(?) to turn the heating on before you arrive
>>
>> I realise that it depends upon how well insulated the property is, but
>> it would cost me less in gas to keep my flat at a constant, say slightly
>> less than comfortable 16 degrees, than pay for this telecommunications

>> solution
>>
>> tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> No, it's not *just* to turn the heating on! We actually live in the flat
> for about 25% of the time, and need a half-way decent internet service
> while we're there.

Strikes me you could meet your browsing requirements using a
mobile(s) to share 4g internet access with your other device(s),
buying more data as & when you need it.

So it appears it *is* just to turn the heating on & off.. :-)

[Roger Mills]

On 20/10/2020 13:27, tim... wrote:
>
>
> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

> news:hv6akn...@mid.individual.net...

>>
>> The biggest benefit would come from replacing the drafty single-glazed
>> sash windows with modern double glazed windows - but we ain't allowed to.
>
> then you need to appeal
>

Problem is that it's in the New Forest National Park - and they've got
some very funny ideas about what's acceptable.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[Tweed]

I know of a grade 2 cottage in a conservation area that has similar
problems. Once the stone walls were insulated on the inside the heat loss
went down considerably. Not that much heat is lost through the single
glazed sash windows. From the various figures I’ve read only 10% of a
house’s heat loss is through single glazed windows. Or put it another way,
you could spend an awful lot of money on conservation grade replacement
windows and not be much further forwards. Double glazing vendors oversell
the virtues of their products.

[The Natural Philosopher]

The chief advantage of DG is lower draughts and windows dont HAVE to be
DG to be draught proof. I have single glazing leaded ights here - had
to do a total energy calc to show house overall was low loss even with
SG. In practice in the cold mights the curtains are the secondary
barrier and reduce heat loss mightily.


--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

[charles]

In article <rmn0vo$gl9$1...@dont-email.me>, Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com>

wrote:
> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 20/10/2020 13:27, tim... wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:hv6akn...@mid.individual.net...
> >
> >>>
> >>> The biggest benefit would come from replacing the drafty
> >>> single-glazed sash windows with modern double glazed windows - but
> >>> we ain't allowed to.
> >>
> >> then you need to appeal
> >>
> >
> > Problem is that it's in the New Forest National Park - and they've got
> > some very funny ideas about what's acceptable.

> I know of a grade 2 cottage in a conservation area that has similar
> problems. Once the stone walls were insulated on the inside the heat loss
> went down considerably. Not that much heat is lost through the single

> glazed sash windows. From the various figures I宋e read only 10% of a
> house壮 heat loss is through single glazed windows. Or put it another

> way, you could spend an awful lot of money on conservation grade
> replacement windows and not be much further forwards. Double glazing
> vendors oversell the virtues of their products.

some decent curtains for the cold evenings would help.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Jimk]

Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 20/10/2020 13:27, tim... wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:hv6akn...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>>>
>>>> The biggest benefit would come from replacing the drafty single-glazed
>>>> sash windows with modern double glazed windows - but we ain't allowed to.
>>>
>>> then you need to appeal
>>>
>>
>> Problem is that it's in the New Forest National Park - and they've got
>> some very funny ideas about what's acceptable.
>
> I know of a grade 2 cottage in a conservation area that has similar
> problems. Once the stone walls were insulated on the inside the heat loss
> went down considerably. Not that much heat is lost through the single

> glazed sash windows. From the various figures I?ve read only 10% of a
> house?s heat loss is through single glazed windows. Or put it another way,

> you could spend an awful lot of money on conservation grade replacement
> windows and not be much further forwards. Double glazing vendors oversell
> the virtues of their products.
>

Tis technically true, although the draught reduction of new
windows helps, plus the reduced condensation on inside of windows
looks nicer....

Hence next problem - how to manage the now increased humidity
inside....

--

[Jimk]

Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 20/10/2020 13:27, tim... wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:hv6akn...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>>>
>>>> The biggest benefit would come from replacing the drafty single-glazed
>>>> sash windows with modern double glazed windows - but we ain't allowed to.
>>>
>>> then you need to appeal
>>>
>>
>> Problem is that it's in the New Forest National Park - and they've got
>> some very funny ideas about what's acceptable.
>
> I know of a grade 2 cottage in a conservation area that has similar
> problems. Once the stone walls were insulated on the inside the heat loss
> went down considerably. Not that much heat is lost through the single

> glazed sash windows. From the various figures I?ve read only 10% of a
> house?s heat loss is through single glazed windows. Or put it another way,

> you could spend an awful lot of money on conservation grade replacement
> windows and not be much further forwards. Double glazing vendors oversell
> the virtues of their products.
>

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/10/2020 17:38, charles wrote:
> In article <rmn0vo$gl9$1...@dont-email.me>, Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 20/10/2020 13:27, tim... wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:hv6akn...@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The biggest benefit would come from replacing the drafty
>>>>> single-glazed sash windows with modern double glazed windows - but
>>>>> we ain't allowed to.
>>>>
>>>> then you need to appeal
>>>>
>>>
>>> Problem is that it's in the New Forest National Park - and they've got
>>> some very funny ideas about what's acceptable.
>
>> I know of a grade 2 cottage in a conservation area that has similar
>> problems. Once the stone walls were insulated on the inside the heat loss
>> went down considerably. Not that much heat is lost through the single

>> glazed sash windows. From the various figures I‘ve read only 10% of a
>> house‘s heat loss is through single glazed windows. Or put it another

>> way, you could spend an awful lot of money on conservation grade
>> replacement windows and not be much further forwards. Double glazing
>> vendors oversell the virtues of their products.
>
> some decent curtains for the cold evenings would help.
>

you can judge heat loss by putting your hand against a surface. a
thermally lined curtain feels warmer than a wall with 4" of celotex....

..the limiting factor is cold air seeping out of the bottom,

--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
..I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

[Tweed]

>>
> you can judge heat loss by putting your hand against a surface. a
> thermally lined curtain feels warmer than a wall with 4" of celotex....
>

Not really. What you describe is the heat conductivity of the surface you
touch. To take it to a slight extreme, a sheet of copper on perfectly
insulated wall would still feel colder because it conducts your body heat
away efficiently, so it would feel like it was at 20 degrees (assuming the
room air temperature was at 20 degrees). The curtain is a very poor
conductor, so doesn’t cool your hand.

If you’ve got a few hundred quid spare, a FLIR infra red camera (stand
alone or as a smartphone add on) is very instructive as to where your heat
is leaking away.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 17:38:17 +0100, charles wrote:


>> Not that much heat is lost through the single glazed sash windows.
From

>> the various figures I ve read only 10% of a house s heat loss is
>> through single glazed windows.

They loose heat quite badly but their area is small compared to the
walls...

> some decent curtains for the cold evenings would help.

Preferably two pairs of decent lined curtains. One set in the reveal,
close to the window, to reduce convection by the glass and a second
set over the whole reveal inside the room.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Jimk]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> Wrote in message:

> On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 17:38:17 +0100, charles wrote:
>
>
>>> Not that much heat is lost through the single glazed sash windows.
> From
>>> the various figures I ve read only 10% of a house s heat loss is
>>> through single glazed windows.
>
> They loose heat quite badly but their area is small compared to the
> walls...

The point was that double glazing doesn't save much over single
glazing in direct emissivity....

[R. Mark Clayton]

On Monday, 19 October 2020 23:01:46 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 19/10/2020 22:55, Chris wrote:
> > Andrew <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
> >> On 19/10/2020 14:58, Java Jive wrote:
> >>> On 19/10/2020 14:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >>>> On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:
> >>>>> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!
> >>>>
> >>>> What climate change would that be, then?
> >>>
> >>> The change that's happening now, but people hard of thinking like you
> >>> keep denying.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Scotland would still be under 2 miles of packed ice and snow if it
> >> wasn't for natural, cyclical climatic change, which have occured
> >> many many times over the last 4 billion years.
> >
> > Global climate has never been static and is continually changing, however,
> > the rate of change we are experiencing currently is unprecedented in at
> > least the last 800,000 years. The driver is not a natural, cyclical event,
> > but human-led. We are the cause and we will feel the largest consequence.
> >
> In fact there ha been less climate change over the last 70 years than in
> the 70 years before it, when CO2 was allegedly not an issue.
>
> When I ask 'what climate change' the kneejerk bigotry of climate
> believers assume I am 'denying that climate change is happening'
> whereas the question is genuine. What climate change? Natural climate
> change that is utterly unaffected by CO2? or false climate change due to
> CO2 for which no supporting evidence whatsoever exists.
>

Oh really, please do just a little bit of reading.

True all sorts of nonsense is spouted blaming stuff on climate change, but that the world is getting warmer and the cause is increased CO2 is virtually incontrovertible. There are likely effects - e.g. more and bigger hurricanes.

OTOH deep greenies try and start moral panics about al sorts of things - radioactivity and most recently micro-plastics. Well the tiny particles are inert and will pass through the body like grains of sand through an oyster - well apart from the one in a million that becomes a pearl.

[Java Jive]

On 21/10/2020 17:50, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
>
> micro-plastics. Well the tiny particles are inert and will pass through the body like grains of sand through an oyster - well apart from the one in a million that becomes a pearl.

This has not been my understanding from listening to programmes like
Inside Science and Science In Action. Do you have any provenance for
this claim?

[Brian Gregory]

On 19/10/2020 20:00, Andrew wrote:
> On 19/10/2020 14:58, Java Jive wrote:
>> On 19/10/2020 14:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 19/10/2020 12:05, Graham J wrote:
>>>> In terms of climate change, that would be totally inappropriate!
>>>
>>> What climate change would that be, then?
>>
>> The change that's happening now, but people hard of thinking like you
>> keep denying.
>>
>
> Scotland would still be under 2 miles of packed ice and snow if it
> wasn't for natural, cyclical climatic change, which have occured
> many many times over the last 4 billion years.

But nowhere near as quickly as change is happening now.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

[The Natural Philosopher]

You have absolutely no way to know that.
Nor does anyone ales, Its fraud to state otherwise.

Nothing in even the last millennial records gives temperature resolution
down to 3 decades. We have for example no idea how fast the Roman or
mediaeval warm periods or the holocene optimum - all of which were
warmer than today - occurred.

Nor any explanation as to why the little ice age ended years before CO2
started to rise.



--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

[Java Jive]

On 17/11/2020 12:15, Bob Latham wrote:
>
> In article <rp01b1$k8k$1...@dont-email.me>,

> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>

>> On 16/11/2020 23:45, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19/10/2020 20:00, Andrew wrote:
>>>> On 19/10/2020 14:58, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>> On 19/10/2020 14:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What climate change would that be, then?
>>>>>
>>>>> The change that's happening now, but people hard of thinking like you
>>>>> keep denying.
>>>>
>>>> Scotland would still be under 2 miles of packed ice and snow if it
>>>> wasn't for natural, cyclical climatic change, which have occured
>>>> many many times over the last 4 billion years.
>>>
>>> But nowhere near as quickly as change is happening now.
>>
>> You have absolutely no way to know that.
>> Nor does anyone ales, Its fraud to state otherwise.
>>
>> Nothing in even the last millennial records gives temperature
>> resolution down to 3 decades.

Nonsense ...

LIE #1: It has been explained to you before that tree ring data can give
proxies for growing conditions including temperature down to individual
years.

LIE #2: Typically for a denialist, you're not comparing like with like
- the known temperature rises from AGW began during the industrial
revolution around 1850, not three decades ago.

>> We have for example no idea how
>> fast the Roman or mediaeval warm periods

We don't know if the mediaeval warm period was even a global phenomenon,
so it's not a useful comparison with the known global rises of today.

>> or the holocene optimum
>> - all of which were warmer than today - occurred.

The scientifically accepted claim that you were arguing against was
"nowhere near as quickly as change is happening now", against which it
is not a valid argument that global temperatures have been higher during
the holocene, which no-one is contesting, and say nothing about the rate
of change. The worrying aspects of AGW are precisely that GMSTs are
increasing more rapidly than is known previously at a time when the
world should have been cooling according to previous trends.

For example:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-020-0530-7

"The distribution of peak global temperatures during the Holocene can
also be compared with recent temperatures. The GMST of the past decade
(2011–2019) averaged 1 °C higher than 1850–190011. For 80% of the
ensemble members, no 200-year interval during the past 12,000 years
exceeded the warmth of the most recent decade. For the other 20% of the
cases, which are primarily from the CPS reconstruction, at least one
200-year interval exceeded the recent decade. This comparison is
conservative in context of temperatures projected for the rest of this
century and beyond, which are very likely to exceed 1 °C above
pre-industrial temperature12. Such projections place the temperature of
the last decade into a long-term context that is more comparable with
the Holocene GMST reconstruction. Furthermore, if the reconstruction is
influenced by a Northern Hemisphere summer bias (discussed below), then
the peak warmth would be overestimated and the recent warming would
therefore stand out even more in comparison."

>> Nor any explanation as to why the little ice age ended years before
>> CO2 started to rise.

LIE #3: It has been explained to you on multiple occasions over at least
the last decade ...

Firstly, that global CO2 and global temperature form a feedback loop ...
CO2 <-> Temperature
... and therefore if one increases, so will the other, thus amplifying
the increase of whichever was first to increase, and similarly if one
reduces, so will the other. It doesn't matter which you begin by
changing, the other will always act to amplify the change and so on
round the feedback loop until a new point of equilibrium is reached.

Secondly, that until AGW the coming and going of ice ages was controlled
by periodic, or cyclical, changes in the parameters of earth's orbit
around the sun called Milankovic cycles, and that these alter the
average amount of radiation falling upon different parts of it, and so
gave rise to periodic changes in temperature, and thus the comings and
goings of ice-ages, and thus why temperature leads CO2 when coming out
of an ice-age. However, it still remains true that if you increase CO2
as man is doing now, then you kick-start the same feedback loop with the
same results.

> So true and indeed the whole ACC position relies on the linking of a
> succession of unproven and even unlikely ideas. Any one of them
> proven wrong and the whole pack of cards collapses.
>
> If you look at temperature and CO2 levels over the last 100 years, a
> rise in CO2 and a simultaneous rise in temperature only occurred
> together from 1976 to 2000 and even that is generous. From 1940 to
> 1975 they were going in the opposite direction.

Different denialist, but still the same old lies, see, for one example
among myriads of possibilities, the link given above.

> Why is it thought a warmer planet is worse for plants or animals. It
> isn't, warmer periods in the past have always been better times for
> man. Greta tells us "people are dying" but never says where - funny
> that.

Yet another unproven denialist claim, where is your *EVIDENCE* for this
assertion stated as though it were fact? Meanwhile, this is ...

ANOTHER PROVEN LIE BY BOB LATHAM, ALREADY DEBUNKED MULTIPLE TIMES, BUT
RESTATED!

For example, crops - increasing CO2 and temperature affects plants,
including human crops, in three ways:
- Climatic effects from increasing temperature;
Direct effect on transpiration of increasing CO2, which:
+ Directly increases yields;
+ Reduces water demand.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/nasa-study-rising-carbon-dioxide-levels-will-help-and-hurt-crops

"Results show that yields for all four crops grown at levels of carbon
dioxide remaining at 2000 levels would experience severe declines in
yield due to higher temperatures and drier conditions. But when grown at
doubled carbon dioxide levels, all four crops fare better due to
increased photosynthesis and crop water productivity, partially
offsetting the impacts from those adverse climate changes. For wheat and
soybean crops, in terms of yield the median negative impacts are fully
compensated, and rice crops recoup up to 90 percent and maize up to 60
percent of their losses."

So, when all three factors are taken into account for four staple food
crops, two are net unaffected, one is slightly affected, and one is
seriously affected.

> Average orbital distance from sun
> Venus 105M KM, C02=96.40%, temperature 470C
> Earth 150m KM, CO2=0.041%, temperature 15C

But without CO2 would be -18C ...

> Mars 220M KM, CO2=95.32%, temperature -60C
> CO2 is temperature control knob is it?

... so yes, given the orbit we are in, it is.

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 21:21:22 UTC+1, Roger Mills wrote:
> I need a constant internet facility at my holiday flat in order to use
> the Hive setup to remotely monitor the temperature and to turn the
> heating on prior to each visit.
>
> I'm currently paying for a landline plus ADSL broadband at a total cost
> of about £250 p.a. (and the ADSL will go up in price when the current

> contract ends). We have an Evening and Weekend calls package for "free",
> but daytime outgoing calls are made on a mobile, and E&WE calls could
> easily be, too. We get a few incoming calls - but most people seem to
> have inclusive packages which include calls to mobiles these days, so
> our friends shouldn't be too upset if we got rid of the landline, so
> that they had to ring a mobile instead.
>
> I'm wondering about getting something like this:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/D-Link-DWR-921-Unlocked-Broadband-Ethernet-Black/dp/B00BN36NMM/ref=psdc_430579031_t2_B016ZWXYXG?th=1
> to provide 4G-based broadband. Since it has ethernet ports, it should be
> possible to connect the Hive hub - which can't use WiFi - to it.
>
> Do any of you have any experience of getting rid of a landline and using
> something like this?
>
> Are there any gotchas when it comes to data SIMs? For example, PlusNet
> told me in an online chat that their SIMs can be used in phones or
> tablets but not routers - but I'm not sure that the agent knew what he
> was talking about.
>
> Since our data use is fairly small - no more than 1 or 2 GB per month -
> something like this looks promising:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Three-Mobile-Pay-Broadband-Data-Black/dp/B01M3VJ2B2/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/261-6344032-7443464?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01M3VJ2B2&pd_rd_r=07b2b9f8-4351-48ea-b0a0-406b0067cbeb&pd_rd_w=ROFqg&pd_rd_wg=SlXJE&pf_rd_p=dcf35746-0212-418b-a148-30395d107b2d&pf_rd_r=81DHJFHDPN1WZDP6N5AM&psc=1&refRID=81DHJFHDPN1WZDP6N5AM
> since the data doesn't expire for 24 months. There is a reasonable '3'
> signal at the flat. Any reason why I couldn't use one of these SIMs -
> and then top it up or replace when the data is used up?
> --
> Cheers,
> Roger

Teltonika 4G modem and say a 3 12GB per month SIM (£8) - can be billed to a business account.

[Chris]

Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <rp01b1$k8k$1...@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> So true and indeed the whole ACC position relies on the linking of a
> succession of unproven and even unlikely ideas.

False. It is not unlikely and unproven doesn't mean wrong. Many scientific
theories remain unproven for decades or longer because they supercede our
capability to confirm them. See gravitational waves, black holes,
neutrinos, Higgs boson, mendelian genetics, etc.

> Any one of them
> proven wrong and the whole pack of cards collapses.

Go on then.

> If you look at temperature and CO2 levels over the last 100 years, a
> rise in CO2 and a simultaneous rise in temperature only occurred
> together from 1976 to 2000 and even that is generous.

Who said there needed to be a simultaneous rise? The link is complex and
non-linear.

> From 1940 to
> 1975 they were going in the opposite direction.
>

> Why is it thought a warmer planet is worse for plants or animals. It
> isn't, warmer periods in the past have always been better times for
> man.

It's the rate of change that matters most not just the absolute
temperature. The rate of change since 1850 is equivalent to the previous
10,000-12,000 years.

> Greta tells us "people are dying" but never says where - funny
> that.

Is it so hard for you to work out? Surely if a teenager can you can too...

Here are a few hints.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-54099688
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/10/climate-change-california-power-outage/
https://www.oxfam.org/en/5-natural-disasters-beg-climate-action

> Average orbital distance from sun
> Venus 105M KM, C02=96.40%, temperature 470C

Surface pressure: 9,300,000 pa

> Earth 150m KM, CO2=0.041%, temperature 15C

Surface pressure: 101,325 pa

> Mars 220M KM, CO2=95.32%, temperature -60C

Surface pressure: 610 pa

> CO2 is temperature control knob is it?

The atmosphere on mars is so thin that it cannot retain heat regardless of
the CO2.

> Bob.
>