Second FTTC line

[Theo]

Just wondering if anyone has had a second FTTC line installed or activated,
and how you did that? By which I mean physically installed, not just
activating a second phone line that already had a phone on it.

One of the unforseen issues with the switchoff of the PSTN is that, under
the new no-voice SOGEA product, lines no longer have phone numbers. Which
is fine when you can look up a property by address or UPRN, but then how do
you say 'I mean this line, not that line'?

In this case there's a second pair in the cable coming in from the road,
there's a second master socket, but they aren't connected. But when you go
to order it asks for the address and obviously assumes the active line. And
if the second socket once had a number, it's probably decades ago.

And I do wonder whether the cabinet has roughly one DSLAM per property or if
there's spare capacity.

Any experiences welcome...

Thanks
Theo

[Graham J]

When helping customers with this sort of problem I would always attend
the site.

On one occasion Openreach claimed to have commissioned a new service
using an existing line - which had actually been removed by some
builders. So I had to report it as a fault, arrange to meet an
Openreach service techician on site, who then completed the installation
by fitting a new master socket in the required place and running the
necessary wire.

So I suggest you order the service from your preferred supplier, and
explain that there is aready a master socket and wire. They will
probably insist on the higher "new line" price - I think the discount
for reconnecting an existing line is that the wires are complete all the
way to the exchange and all that is necessary is to push in a fuse.

When the installation techician arrives point out the line and master
socket and suggest that these are used - you will probably get a more
modern master socket anyway. Discuss whether this is a reconnection or
a new service. If it's a reconnection go back to your supplier for the
reduced price.

If there is a severe "line plant shortage" Openreach may insist that you
can't have another line. In which case order it in your mother in law's
name so it is treated as a different household.


--
Graham J

[David Rance]

I'm not sure if my kind of setup is what you mean. I have two lines and
each one is FTTC activated. They are both completely separate lines. I
have phones on both although I never actually use the phone on the
second line. Indeed, I think I should get my provider to remove the
phone facility on the second line and thus save myself about Ł20 a
month.

I've had this setup for over fifteen years (possibly longer) so, at the
time, it was necessary to have both phone and FTTC on both lines. I've
often wondered how to describe the line if the phone, and therefore the
telephone number, were to be removed.

There must be a DSLAM for each of my lines. Would a DSLAM be necessary
if there were no phone on that line?

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

[Brian Gregory]

Surely for FTTC the DSLAM is the whole FTTC cabinet or maybe a module
within it that connects to many phone lines and has a single data
connection coming out that goes onwards towards the Internet.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

[Andy Burns]

Theo wrote:

> One of the unforseen issues with the switchoff of the PSTN is that, under
> the new no-voice SOGEA product, lines no longer have phone numbers.

The BT broadband availability checker allows specifying a line
by phone number (DN), UPRN or Access Line ID (ALID)

So it would seem your task is to find the latter, possibly aka
BBEU/BBIP/CBUK but presume those wouldn't exist until the line has a
broadband service provided on it?

[Graham J]

David Rance wrote:

[snip]

>
> I've had this setup for over fifteen years (possibly longer) so, at the
> time, it was necessary to have both phone and FTTC on both lines. I've
> often wondered how to describe the line if the phone, and therefore the
> telephone number, were to be removed.

A&A have for many years sold an internet connection without a phone
service. Anecdotally, there were companies where the accountants
discontinued any line not showing regular bills for calls - so breaking
their internet connection. A separate bill for "Internet Services" from
a different supplier (i.e. not the usual BT) would normally be paid.

I think Openreach have a circuit number to describe the copper pair. I
have seen references to a CBUK number

> There must be a DSLAM for each of my lines. Would a DSLAM be necessary
> if there were no phone on that line?

The DSLAM converts the digital signal (in the exchange, or in the local
green cabinet) to the analog signal carried on the copper pair to your
property; which your router then demodulates and converts back to a
digital signal.

If you have FTTP then there is no DSLAM.

--
Graham J

[Andy Burns]

Brian Gregory wrote:

> Theo wrote:
>
>> I do wonder whether the cabinet has roughly one DSLAM per property
>> or if there's spare capacity.
>
> Surely for FTTC the DSLAM is the whole FTTC cabinet or maybe a module
> within it that connects to many phone lines and has a single data
> connection coming out that goes onwards towards the Internet.

That's how I'd use the term

[Theo]

Interesting. Supposedly my ISP can tell me the ALID if I asked. But that
doesn't help for a line that physically exists but doesn't have service on
it. So I can't order for 'that other line, definitely not the line with the
ALID xxxxxx'.

When I go to check my address at various ISPs I'm getting a lot of 'sorry we
can't serve that property' which probably means they're grumpy about the
active line being SOGEA. Which is a bit surprising given SOGEA is the new
POTS-free world order.

I haven't tried searching for my (unused) Sky Talk VOIP number - would
probably cause even more fun.

I'll try ticking the 'the property is subdivided and a line is used by
somebody else' which some of them have, and see if that gets any further...

Theo

[Graham J]

Theo wrote:

[snip]

>
> When I go to check my address at various ISPs I'm getting a lot of 'sorry we
> can't serve that property' which probably means they're grumpy about the
> active line

How do you know that the line is active? Can you measure nominally 50v
DC across it? Does it have dial-tone?

Try ringing Openreach and asking them to fix the the line fault so it
can be used to make calls ... When they ask you the number, ask them
why they can't tell you it.

My suspicion from what you've written is that the copper pair runs from
your master socket a few hundred feet to a junction box - and no
further. Probably that means that even it it is re-used will be
regarded as a new installation.

Is there any problem in your area that would suggest Openreach cannot
honour requests for new lines?

I had a circumstance where my customer moved into a new (to him) house
and tried to take over the existing phone line service. The householder
moving out successfully took his contract and number to a location in
the same town.

Zen could find the line, but claimed not to be able to do anything until
the existing (i.e. previous) householder released the line - so an
impasse. Some investigation by Openreach appeared to suggest that the
line was actually connected to a nearby property a few hundred metres
away. So Openreach's documentation is clearly untrustworthy.

In the end my customer ordered a new voice line and FTTC from Zen - at
further expense, since this was a "new install".

You couldn't make it up!

--
Graham J

[Theo]

Graham J <nob...@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

> Theo wrote:
>
> > When I go to check my address at various ISPs I'm getting a lot of 'sorry we
> > can't serve that property' which probably means they're grumpy about the
> > active line
>
> How do you know that the line is active? Can you measure nominally 50v
> DC across it? Does it have dial-tone?

I have two master sockets, one for the first line, which is on Sky SOGEA,
and one for the second.

The problem with ordering is entirely to do with the first line. I have a
live SOGEA connection, but when I go to an ISP to order takeover of that
connection, their site thinks for a bit and then says 'sorry we can't do
that'. This is nothing to do with requesting an additional connection -
they just 'computer says no' before we even get there.

I would actually be happy with not having a second line, but because I'm
getting this problem seemingly due to SOGEA I was looking into having a
second line, for which it seems almost all the hardware already exists. And
then I ran into the problem of how to refer to lines without numbers.

The second line is not active, ie there isn't a live connection on it.
However it has an 'Openreach' NTE socket, so it must have been active
since Openreach existed. But the curious thing is the cable on the master
socket goes through the wall to a brown junction box on the outside wall.

The junction box has two pairs, one for the first line, which is active.
The second pair *isn't connected* to the pair from the second master socket.
So the line has been operational in the Openreach era, and yet somebody has
come along and disconnected it externally. Which is puzzling why they would
do that.

(Perhaps there was a fault and Openreach swapped the external pair, I
suppose. But then why not just plug into the other master socket since it
was already present?)

> Is there any problem in your area that would suggest Openreach cannot
> honour requests for new lines?

It is entirely dealing with websites that claim to offer the service and
then fall over in ordering. I haven't tried ringing the ISPs yet (some like
NOW don't really do the phone).

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Theo wrote:

> The junction box has two pairs, one for the first line, which is active.

> The second pair*isn't connected* to the pair from the second master socket.

> So the line has been operational in the Openreach era, and yet somebody has
> come along and disconnected it externally.

If you (naughty, naughty!) croc-clip onto the disconnected line, do you
get -48V or a soft dial tone?

[Graham J]

Theo wrote:

[snip]

> I have two master sockets, one for the first line, which is on Sky SOGEA,
> and one for the second.
>
> The problem with ordering is entirely to do with the first line. I have a
> live SOGEA connection, but when I go to an ISP to order takeover of that
> connection, their site thinks for a bit and then says 'sorry we can't do
> that'. This is nothing to do with requesting an additional connection -
> they just 'computer says no' before we even get there.

I suspect that the problem is with the ISP's system: they haven't yet
put in place a mechanism to take over an existing SOGEA connection.
This might not be their fault, in that the copper pair belongs to
Openreach so the ISP has to communicate with them.

So: go to Sky and ask for the reference number that identifies your
circuit. (Being Sky that may well be impossible - I see why you would
want to migrate.) (Being Sky it might not even be Openreach wiring ..?)

Found this on the web:

"CBUK is the Circuit ID and FTIP (or BBIP for newer connections and BBDS
for Datastream) is the Service ID".

Ring your preferred new ISP and ask whether they want your business,
Tell them that you want to move your existing SOGEA connection to them.
Get them to explain how they will do this, so that you understand any
gotchas.

A&A have traditionally offered SOGEA so if your preferred ISP is
unresponsive, try calling A&A. They will probably be helpful even if
you decide not to use them.

> I would actually be happy with not having a second line, but because I'm
> getting this problem seemingly due to SOGEA I was looking into having a
> second line, for which it seems almost all the hardware already exists. And
> then I ran into the problem of how to refer to lines without numbers.
>
> The second line is not active, ie there isn't a live connection on it.
> However it has an 'Openreach' NTE socket, so it must have been active
> since Openreach existed. But the curious thing is the cable on the master
> socket goes through the wall to a brown junction box on the outside wall.

Do you want SOGEA on the second line? Simply ask for the new service,
and when the OR techician arrives to connect the line point out the
existing copper pair and master socket and ask him (or her) to use that.
If that's not possible escalate it to the line manager and upwards
until you get a rational explanation.

But I don't see any alternative other than talking to a real person. In
ISP that can't make a real person available to talk to you probably
isn't worth dealing with.


--
Graham J