About those bcc's

[The Natural Philosopher]

We discussed this some time ago, and yes, I can report that gmail is
essentially broken


Yep. Google mail doesn't like you sending mail to more than one
recipient at a time

Dorks

From my logs...


SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<XX...@gmail.com>: host
gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [173.194.66.26]: 451-4.3.0 Multiple
destination domains per transaction is unsupported. Please\n451 4.3.0
try again. x54si2311741xxx.2



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Bob Eager]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 02:31:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> We discussed this some time ago, and yes, I can report that gmail is
> essentially broken
>
>
> Yep. Google mail doesn't like you sending mail to more than one
> recipient at a time
>
> Dorks
>
> From my logs...
>
>
> SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<XX...@gmail.com>: host
> gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [173.194.66.26]: 451-4.3.0 Multiple
> destination domains per transaction is unsupported. Please\n451 4.3.0
> try again. x54si2311741xxx.2

Not *quite* what it says.....

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Davey]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 02:31:54 +0100

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> We discussed this some time ago, and yes, I can report that gmail is
> essentially broken
>
>
> Yep. Google mail doesn't like you sending mail to more than one
> recipient at a time
>
> Dorks
>
> From my logs...
>
>
> SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<XX...@gmail.com>:
> host gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [173.194.66.26]: 451-4.3.0 Multiple
> destination domains per transaction is unsupported. Please\n451
> 4.3.0 try again. x54si2311741xxx.2
>
>
>

Funny, I have no problem with it at all, to multiple Bcc addresses,
and no To: or CC: ones.
--
Davey.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Bob Eager wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 02:31:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> We discussed this some time ago, and yes, I can report that gmail is
>> essentially broken
>>
>>
>> Yep. Google mail doesn't like you sending mail to more than one
>> recipient at a time
>>
>> Dorks
>>
>> From my logs...
>>
>>
>> SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<XX...@gmail.com>: host
>> gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [173.194.66.26]: 451-4.3.0 Multiple
>> destination domains per transaction is unsupported. Please\n451 4.3.0
>> try again. x54si2311741xxx.2
>
> Not *quite* what it says.....
>

buy in effect what it was doing - the mailing list had 5 @gmail.com
recipients. It rejected all of them.



Al

[The Natural Philosopher]

Maybe your relay split them up into single messages.
I've googled (sic!) that error and it is causing a lot of people a lot
of grief: gmail is basically broken for mailing lists. So if you are
using gmail and want to be on a mailing list chances are you will never
get the message.

[Davey]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 12:01:46 +0100

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Davey wrote:
> > On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 02:31:54 +0100
> > The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> We discussed this some time ago, and yes, I can report that gmail
> >> is essentially broken
> >>
> >>
> >> Yep. Google mail doesn't like you sending mail to more than one
> >> recipient at a time
> >>
> >> Dorks
> >>
> >> From my logs...
> >>
> >>
> >> SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<XX...@gmail.com>:
> >> host gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [173.194.66.26]: 451-4.3.0
> >> Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported.
> >> Please\n451 4.3.0 try again. x54si2311741xxx.2
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Funny, I have no problem with it at all, to multiple Bcc addresses,
> > and no To: or CC: ones.
>
> Maybe your relay split them up into single messages.
> I've googled (sic!) that error and it is causing a lot of people a
> lot of grief: gmail is basically broken for mailing lists. So if you
> are using gmail and want to be on a mailing list chances are you will
> never get the message.
>
>

Interesting. Maybe it works for me because I only have five or six
addressees for any one message. I'll try a six-recipient one tonight,
and see what happens.
Of course, not being on a successful mailing list should cut down on
the number of 'Sign at the bottom and return to help The
Whales/Eagles/Three-toed Sloths/Poor children of Africa' requests.
--
Davey.

[The Natural Philosopher]

IF they are all 'To: or Cc: it will probably work.
gmail is a system that is too big to work.

> Of course, not being on a successful mailing list should cut down on
> the number of 'Sign at the bottom and return to help The
> Whales/Eagles/Three-toed Sloths/Poor children of Africa' requests.


--

[chris]

On 05/09/2012 12:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Davey wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 02:31:54 +0100
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> We discussed this some time ago, and yes, I can report that gmail is
>>> essentially broken
>>>
>>>
>>> Yep. Google mail doesn't like you sending mail to more than one
>>> recipient at a time
>>>
>>> Dorks
>>>
>>> From my logs...
>>>
>>>
>>> SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<XX...@gmail.com>:
>>> host gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [173.194.66.26]: 451-4.3.0 Multiple
>>> destination domains per transaction is unsupported. Please\n451
>>> 4.3.0 try again. x54si2311741xxx.2
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Funny, I have no problem with it at all, to multiple Bcc addresses,
>> and no To: or CC: ones.
>
> Maybe your relay split them up into single messages.
> I've googled (sic!) that error and it is causing a lot of people a lot
> of grief: gmail is basically broken for mailing lists. So if you are
> using gmail and want to be on a mailing list chances are you will never
> get the message.

I guess it depends on how those mailing lists are managed.

I have no problems here receiving mailman mailing lists with gmail.

[The Natural Philosopher]

It may actually be a transient problem at gmail. There is a suspicion
that they have MX records pointing at more than one target, and one or
more of those has this issue. Hence the 'try again later' message.

It sad to think that when I ran a commercial mail system; an error like
this would have had me working all night to resolve, ad a matter of
pride. But someone with vastly greater resources can afford to say 'who
the fuck cares if some twat that is stupid enough to use gmail in the
first place doesn't get an email - let's face it he will never know will
he? And if the sender complains we can blame them'

[Davey]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 13:32:24 +0100

Ah, but I'm talking about only Bccs, which have never given me a
problem, so far.
I appear to not be the only one who doesn't have the reported problems.
--
Davey.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Google "Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported. "
and see just how many people DO have or HAVE had this problem with
google mail.


Do you seriously think I am lying?

[Andy Burns]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Davey wrote:
>

>> Funny, I have no problem with it at all, to multiple Bcc addresses,
>> and no To: or CC: ones.
>
> Maybe your relay split them up into single messages.
> I've googled (sic!) that error and it is causing a lot of people a lot
> of grief: gmail is basically broken for mailing lists. So if you are
> using gmail and want to be on a mailing list chances are you will never
> get the message.

Strange, I *only* use my gmail account for list memberships ...

[Davey]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:30:20 +0100

No. But since I do not have this problem, I can't be bothered to spend
time to go looking at it. I will try a Send tonight, as promised.
--
Davey.

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2012-09-05 at 05:40 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 02:31:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> > Yep. Google mail doesn't like you sending mail to more than one
> > recipient at a time
> >
> > Dorks
> >
> > From my logs...
> >
> >
> > SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<XX...@gmail.com>: host
> > gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [173.194.66.26]: 451-4.3.0 Multiple
> > destination domains per transaction is unsupported. Please\n451 4.3.0
> > try again. x54si2311741xxx.2
>
> Not *quite* what it says.....

Indeed. As I understand it, they don't like you sending mail to more
than one *domain* per SMTP connection.

They run email service for many domains other than 'gmail.com', from the
same servers. There are plenty of people daft/lazy/clueless enough to
let Google Apps handle everything for them.

My understanding of the above-quoted error is that it happens when you
submit messages for multiple *domains* on the same connection. Most MTAs
didn't do that, I thought; they separate the messages for @gmail.com
from the messages for @someone-who-uses-google-apps.com earlier in the
process, and don't even *notice* that those domains happen to share MX
hosts. And hence don't attempt to submit messages for multiple domains
over the same connection.

Of course, you didn't show the full SMTP transcript so it's hard to tell
if that's really what happened to you.

A trivial workaround may be to set the maximum number of recipients per
SMTP transaction to one. Then your MTA will send the message to each
recipient in separate connections, one at a time.

[The Natural Philosopher]

David Woodhouse wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-09-05 at 05:40 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 02:31:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> Yep. Google mail doesn't like you sending mail to more than one
>>> recipient at a time
>>>
>>> Dorks
>>>
>>> From my logs...
>>>
>>>
>>> SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<XX...@gmail.com>: host
>>> gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [173.194.66.26]: 451-4.3.0 Multiple
>>> destination domains per transaction is unsupported. Please\n451 4.3.0
>>> try again. x54si2311741xxx.2
>> Not *quite* what it says.....
>
> Indeed. As I understand it, they don't like you sending mail to more
> than one *domain* per SMTP connection.
>
> They run email service for many domains other than 'gmail.com', from the
> same servers. There are plenty of people daft/lazy/clueless enough to
> let Google Apps handle everything for them.
>
> My understanding of the above-quoted error is that it happens when you
> submit messages for multiple *domains* on the same connection. Most MTAs
> didn't do that, I thought; they separate the messages for @gmail.com
> from the messages for @someone-who-uses-google-apps.com earlier in the
> process, and don't even *notice* that those domains happen to share MX
> hosts. And hence don't attempt to submit messages for multiple domains
> over the same connection.
>

all the recipients were in fact @gmail.com

> Of course, you didn't show the full SMTP transcript so it's hard to tell
> if that's really what happened to you.
>
> A trivial workaround may be to set the maximum number of recipients per
> SMTP transaction to one. Then your MTA will send the message to each
> recipient in separate connections, one at a time.
>

That is a useful workaround rather than modding the sender code

[Davey]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:30:20 +0100

I did as I said I would, and sent a message to 13 Bcc addressees, only.
I received no fault message, and I have received one reply. I didn't
ask for replies, so am not surprised that there are no more, but as far
as I can see, my multiple Bcc send worked fine.

This issue is also being discussed in newsgroup
mozilla.support.thunderbird
under "Does Tbird have a built-in limit on recipients?".

--
Davey.

[Davey]

On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 01:30:18 +0100

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

In my send of last night, described a few minutes ago, I had addresses
at:
gmail.com (2), sbcglobal.com, juno.com, yahoo.de, hotmail.com,telus.net,
aol.com (2), univareurope.com, comcast.com, att.net
A good wide variety of domains.
--
Davey.

[Chris Davies]

David Woodhouse <dw...@infradead.org> wrote:
> Indeed. As I understand it, they [Google/Gmail] don't like you sending

> mail to more than one *domain* per SMTP connection.

> My understanding of the above-quoted error is that it happens when
> you submit messages for multiple *domains* on the same connection.

This appears to be an incorrect implementation of SMTP, but I'm struggling
to find a definitive statement in any of the RFCs that confirms this.


The "best" thread I can find on the issue is the one at
http://productforums.google.com/d/topic/apps/jEUrvTd1S_w/discussion

> A trivial workaround may be to set the maximum number of recipients per
> SMTP transaction to one. Then your MTA will send the message to each
> recipient in separate connections, one at a time.

If you're using Exim4 you can get around it "more efficiently" by setting
multi_domain=false. See http://www.debian-administration.org/users/lee/weblog/47

Chris

[The Natural Philosopher]

Thanks for saving me at least an hour..

I am using exim..

That page says this

"What happens next is up to the logic of the server sending the mail.
It'll try sending the messages to the next in the MX priority list -
which for google-handled domains are going to be the same. And again,
all but one of the delivery domains will get rejected."

In fact what I discovered was that the primary MX rejected a batch which
were immediately re-presented to a different google mail server which
then accepted them.

So no mail was in fact lost...

It seems to be an artefact of Googles crappy mail system.

Still if I get the time, I'll implement the exim config changes.

So thanks for that.

> Chris

[Chris Davies]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Still if I get the time, I'll implement the exim config changes.

It seems to me that although the solution posted on the Debian Admin blog
is a "completely correct" one, a simple "multi_domain = no" would suffice.

Chris

[David Woodhouse]

On Thu, 2012-09-06 at 10:19 +0100, Davey wrote:
>
> In my send of last night, described a few minutes ago, I had addresses
> at:
> gmail.com (2), sbcglobal.com, juno.com, yahoo.de,
> hotmail.com,telus.net,
> aol.com (2), univareurope.com, comcast.com, att.net
> A good wide variety of domains.

Not relevant. Of those, only the gmail.com domain points to Google's MX
hosts. You won't have submitted any message to Google's mail server that
has more than one recipient domain (gmail.com).

Note that the error happened at RCPT TO time. The remote MTA doesn't
even get to *see* the To and Cc headers; not that it should be paying
any attention to their contents at all.

[The Natural Philosopher]

you still have to build a handler for that case involving a 'loop
through each address' as far as I can see.

Anwyay, having realised that in fact the mail is getting through
eventually, I am not sure I can be arsed.

[The Natural Philosopher]

"RELAYING, EVEN TO MYSELF, IS NOT PERMITTED"

You can understand its the by product of a broken anti spam measure.

Just goes to show what a heap of wombat turds these massive 'cloud
services ' really are.

[Chris Davies]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Chris Davies wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Still if I get the time, I'll implement the exim config changes.
>>
>> It seems to me that although the solution posted on the Debian Admin blog
>> is a "completely correct" one, a simple "multi_domain = no" would suffice.

> you still have to build a handler for that case involving a 'loop
> through each address' as far as I can see.

I don't think so, no. The multi_domain flag appears (as I read it, anyway)
to tell exim4 not to throw multiple domains down the same connection,
even though they share a common MX.

Chris

[The Natural Philosopher]

I believe you are right. I've enabled it and HOPE it wont blow up

[The Natural Philosopher]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Chris Davies wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Chris Davies wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> Still if I get the time, I'll implement the exim config changes.
>>>> It seems to me that although the solution posted on the Debian Admin
>>>> blog
>>>> is a "completely correct" one, a simple "multi_domain = no" would
>>>> suffice.
>>
>>> you still have to build a handler for that case involving a 'loop
>>> through each address' as far as I can see.
>>
>> I don't think so, no. The multi_domain flag appears (as I read it,
>> anyway)
>> to tell exim4 not to throw multiple domains down the same connection,
>> even though they share a common MX.
>>
>> Chris
> I believe you are right. I've enabled it and HOPE it wont blow up
>
>

Ok that works. I have someone who has a gmail and a googlemail
address..and it sent those separately.