Getting BT to fix an intermittent fault
Gordon Henderson
So here's the issue - and it's been going on for some years now...
We get a period of hot, dry weather and then my ADSL line starts to
drop-out. A bit of wind, such as today makes it worse.
I've tried everything I feel I can try at my end - 3 different filters,
2 different ADSL modem/routers (although both Draytek, but different
models), going into the master socket, changed the faceplate, and so on.
My line, while under 600 metres from the exchange (a good catapault and I
could hit it), is marginal an I only just get 8Mb in and 830Kb up - that's
what I usually get though, but it's marginal and I feel it should be
much much better. (my neighbours seem rock-solib) Right now the line
stats on a Draytek 2820 router show:
ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 832000 7808000 14 25
That's SNR Margin 14, Loop att. 25, although in the time I've typed
this, it's dropped twice, snr is now 18, loop 25 and upspeed has dropped
to 736K.
If I plug a phone in and listen, I hear crackles and hiss.
However, and this is where I think BT will stump me, if I unplug the
router then it's as quiet as a quiet thing (well, it's quiet to my
ageing ears, tinnitus not withstanding) When I plug the router back in,
I can hear the hiss and what I presume is some of the signalling then the
crackles happen - it's this what I believe will make BT automatically
say that it's a problem at my end. I do not think I have 4 faulty
microfilters and 2 faulty routers.
I think it's some sort of bad joint/rectification issue on the line from
my house to the pole or from the pole to the exchange (which I think
is underground)
But how do I get BT to come out and test it, and admit there's a
fault without them charging me £160 quid or whatever it is these days.
(It would be cheaper for me to install a new line, port the number into
my VoIP platform and cancel the old one - however, it's a 2-pair drop
cable into my house, so I doubt it would help)
I'm almost tempted to get a ladder and climb the pole and check the
terminations myself...
Of-course, it's going to rain later today so my problems will magically
dissapear as they usually do, so even if I did book an appointment with
BT, then there's a good chance it'll have gone by the time they turn up,
and therefore charge me )-:
Gordon
Theo Markettos
> However, and this is where I think BT will stump me, if I unplug the
> router then it's as quiet as a quiet thing (well, it's quiet to my
> ageing ears, tinnitus not withstanding) When I plug the router back in,
> I can hear the hiss and what I presume is some of the signalling then the
> crackles happen - it's this what I believe will make BT automatically
> say that it's a problem at my end. I do not think I have 4 faulty
> microfilters and 2 faulty routers.
We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
on another pair, problem solved).
But that line didn't have ADSL. I hope if you indicate when they come round
the pile of hardware that you've tried it with, they'll get the message.
And the bigger the pile, the better. I assume you're doing all this with
the NTE5?
Perhaps record the crackles so you have some evidence in case it goes away?
Also, I might emphasise the problems with voice rather than broadband,
because I don't think any kind of broadband speed as guaranteed.
Do BT staff have 'test' ADSL modems in their toolkit like they have test
handsets?
Theo
Gordon Henderson
Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In uk.telecom Gordon Henderson <gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>> However, and this is where I think BT will stump me, if I unplug the
>> router then it's as quiet as a quiet thing (well, it's quiet to my
>> ageing ears, tinnitus not withstanding) When I plug the router back in,
>> I can hear the hiss and what I presume is some of the signalling then the
>> crackles happen - it's this what I believe will make BT automatically
>> say that it's a problem at my end. I do not think I have 4 faulty
>> microfilters and 2 faulty routers.
>
>We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
>the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
>Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
>on another pair, problem solved).
I'm sure that would solve my problem.
>But that line didn't have ADSL. I hope if you indicate when they come round
>the pile of hardware that you've tried it with, they'll get the message.
>And the bigger the pile, the better. I assume you're doing all this with
>the NTE5?
Yes. right back to the master socket with the faceplate removed. Also
tried 2 other filtered faceplates (which I don't normally use) too.
>Perhaps record the crackles so you have some evidence in case it goes away?
That's an idea. Fairly trivial for me to record them too...
>Also, I might emphasise the problems with voice rather than broadband,
>because I don't think any kind of broadband speed as guaranteed.
>
>Do BT staff have 'test' ADSL modems in their toolkit like they have test
>handsets?
I've seen them plug their own in the past... The issue I'm sort of
scared of is calling them out, having them test it, but by the time
they get here the fault will have solved itself - which I know from past
experience it will do as soon as it starts to rain.
Maybe I'll just wait until they have a free or half-price instll a 2nd
line deal going... (And read the small print!)
Gordon
John
First thing is to forget the router. Go to the NTE5 master socket and
unscrew the bottom half of it so that you get to the hidden 'test' socket.
Plug a filter in there and a phone into the filter. Dial 17070 and select
'Quiet Line' test (or forget 17070 and just dial a single digit to get rid
of dialtone).
If there is any noise whatsoever on the line, the most important thing is to
report it as a voice fault, not broadband.
If they accept it, and there's a chance they won't because a high-resistance
fault often tests as OK, then you need to do whatever you can to get the
engineer to use the old "tone and amp" method of faultfinding. Basically, a
signal generator (affectionately called a 'tone') is placed across your line
at the exchange and a 1KHz tone squirted down it. If the line is good, ie,
no HR fault, the engineer can short the tone out at the far end. If the tone
can't be shorted out then there's a dis or HR fault somewhere.
My first port of call would be the cab (you won't be fed directly from the
exchange) and if OK to there then I'd come directly to your house, where I'd
expect that the tone couldn't be shorted out. Then it's a case of working
back towards the cab, halving the distance each time until the fault is
found.
HR faults need time, patience and the 'tone and amp' method to find because
the test equipment used by the faults desk when you report it, and also the
field engineer's equipment, put out such voltages/currents so as to be able
to 'jump over' the HR joint and test OK.
Having said all that, your symptoms, ie, noise when the router is plugged
in, highly suggests faulty or poor quality filters. I'd forget individual
filters and go for one of these filtered face plates:
http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16134&cat=262&page=1
HTH and keep us posted :o)
Theo Markettos
> In article <X5t*-m0...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
> >the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
> >Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
> >on another pair, problem solved).
>
> I'm sure that would solve my problem.
Assuming it's not your dropwire, of course. Ours goes through a tree:
poking the wire leaning out the window with a broom had no noticeable effect
so I was fairly sure the fault wasn't there..
> I've seen them plug their own in the past... The issue I'm sort of
> scared of is calling them out, having them test it, but by the time
> they get here the fault will have solved itself - which I know from past
> experience it will do as soon as it starts to rain.
Yes, I was scared of that too but it wasn't a problem. Tell Faults when you
phone that it disappears in the rain, so you're covered in case it happens
to tip it down just before they come, and they can flag it as an
intermittent fault if they have the ability on their system.
The Faults operator was reasonably helpful... once it was obvious I'd tried
all the usual stuff they were quite happy to book a visit. The technician
took one look at the problem and immediately headed outside - there wasn't
any argument of 'it's your equipment' (we don't have an NTE5 so we can't
disconnect the extensions anyway).
> Maybe I'll just wait until they have a free or half-price instll a 2nd
> line deal going... (And read the small print!)
YMMV, but I think if you make it clear you know what you're on about they
aren't going to try to pull a 'it's your fault' on you. After all, it
doesn't rain inside your house. And I don't think many people report
non-existent faults on their lines just for fun.
Theo
Gordon Henderson
I've done all that, thanks. I thought it was clear in my original message,
maybe not, but rest assured, I've no got a pile of kit in my dining room
where the BT line comes in and have tried every permutation of routers,
master socket, faceplete on & off, filters, etc.
>If there is any noise whatsoever on the line, the most important thing is to
>report it as a voice fault, not broadband.
I've tried to do that, but if you'd read my message, you'd see that I
don't get the noise when I don't have the router plugged in. The first
thing BT asks me is to unplug any other equipment - I do that, noise
goes away, and they say the line is OK.
>If they accept it, and there's a chance they won't because a high-resistance
>fault often tests as OK, then you need to do whatever you can to get the
>engineer to use the old "tone and amp" method of faultfinding. Basically, a
>signal generator (affectionately called a 'tone') is placed across your line
>at the exchange and a 1KHz tone squirted down it. If the line is good, ie,
>no HR fault, the engineer can short the tone out at the far end. If the tone
>can't be shorted out then there's a dis or HR fault somewhere.
They won't accept that there's a fault on the line, so I can not get a BT
engineer to do a proper line test. My fear is that BT will come on-site,
not hear any fault then charge me 160 quid.
>My first port of call would be the cab (you won't be fed directly from the
>exchange) and if OK to there then I'd come directly to your house, where I'd
>expect that the tone couldn't be shorted out. Then it's a case of working
>back towards the cab, halving the distance each time until the fault is
>found.
I'm fed from a pole - which I pointed out in my original message.
>HR faults need time, patience and the 'tone and amp' method to find because
>the test equipment used by the faults desk when you report it, and also the
>field engineer's equipment, put out such voltages/currents so as to be able
>to 'jump over' the HR joint and test OK.
BT do not, in my experience, give you time and petience these
days. They're too woried about their shareholders profits to actually
spend money on solving little issues like this.
>Having said all that, your symptoms, ie, noise when the router is plugged
>in, highly suggests faulty or poor quality filters. I'd forget individual
>filters and go for one of these filtered face plates:
>
>http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16134&cat=262&page=1
I've tried alternative faceplaces, filters and whatnot. Even no filter
with the router plugged right into the test socket.
I'm just whinging about it because I can and it makes me feel better. When
it's really bad, I strip out and re-wire all my internal wiring in the
hope it was me, but it never is. Do all the tests from the test socket
and it's always the same. This has been going on for years now - every
time I get a week or so of dry weather, I know to expect problems, but
have never been able to get BT to accept it and do a line test without
the threat of having to pay 160 quid to fix something that's not my fault.
I'm just hoping for rain tonight. Fortunately I live in the 2nd wettest
town in Devon.
Gordon
Gordon Henderson
Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In uk.telecom Gordon Henderson <gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>> In article <X5t*-m0...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
>> Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> >We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
>> >the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
>> >Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
>> >on another pair, problem solved).
>>
>> I'm sure that would solve my problem.
>
>Assuming it's not your dropwire, of course. Ours goes through a tree:
>poking the wire leaning out the window with a broom had no noticeable effect
>so I was fairly sure the fault wasn't there..
The dropwire is fine - I can see it all the way from my house to the
pole. It's not far as these things go.
>> I've seen them plug their own in the past... The issue I'm sort of
>> scared of is calling them out, having them test it, but by the time
>> they get here the fault will have solved itself - which I know from past
>> experience it will do as soon as it starts to rain.
>
>Yes, I was scared of that too but it wasn't a problem. Tell Faults when you
>phone that it disappears in the rain, so you're covered in case it happens
>to tip it down just before they come, and they can flag it as an
>intermittent fault if they have the ability on their system.
>
>The Faults operator was reasonably helpful... once it was obvious I'd tried
>all the usual stuff they were quite happy to book a visit. The technician
>took one look at the problem and immediately headed outside - there wasn't
>any argument of 'it's your equipment' (we don't have an NTE5 so we can't
>disconnect the extensions anyway).
>> Maybe I'll just wait until they have a free or half-price instll a 2nd
>> line deal going... (And read the small print!)
>
>YMMV, but I think if you make it clear you know what you're on about they
>aren't going to try to pull a 'it's your fault' on you. After all, it
>doesn't rain inside your house. And I don't think many people report
>non-existent faults on their lines just for fun.
Well, I've called faults - he said he could hear some crackles faintly
- I hear them loudly and my ADSL disconnected twice during the call -
however he did a line test (after calling me back on my mobile) which
he said was fine )-:
However he's recorded that it's intermittent and has booked an openreach
engineer to come and check - tomorow morning - so lets hope it doesn't
rain until then - but it's not looking good on that front here!
Oh, and it's "only" £129.99 inc VAT if they decide to charge me. If they
do, it'll be the last thing they charge me for as I'll get another
BT wholesaler to do a new line install for me and migrate my ADSL and
home phone number to VoIP, cancelling my existing BT line.
Gordon
John
> In article <066dndBtY5WBi2DW...@bt.com>,
> John <no...@inuse.com> wrote:
>> Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>> This is probably just a frustrated rant...
>>>
>>> So here's the issue - and it's been going on for some years now...
>>>
>>> We get a period of hot, dry weather and then my ADSL line starts to
>>> drop-out. A bit of wind, such as today makes it worse.
>>>
>>> I've tried everything I feel I can try at my end - 3 different
>>> filters, 2 different ADSL modem/routers (although both Draytek, but
>>> different models), going into the master socket, changed the
>>> faceplate, and so on.
>>>
>>> My line, while under 600 metres from the exchange (a good catapault
>>> and I could hit it), is marginal an I only just get 8Mb in and 830Kb
>>> up - that's what I usually get though, but it's marginal and I feel
>>> it should be
>>> much much better.
Don't understand this at all. You say you're only 600 metres from the
exchange and that you get 8Mb in and 830Kb up but that it's marginal and you
should get better. Marginal is when someone is 6Km from the exchange and can
only get 512Kbps down. What ADSL product are you on, ie, up to 8Mbps? up to
12Mbps? up to 24Mbps?
Wasn't clear, at least not to me, that you'd plugged a phone into the test
socket of the NTE5.
maybe not, but rest assured, I've no got a pile of kit in my
> dining room where the BT line comes in and have tried every
> permutation of routers, master socket, faceplete on & off, filters,
> etc.
>
>> If there is any noise whatsoever on the line, the most important
>> thing is to report it as a voice fault, not broadband.
>
> I've tried to do that, but if you'd read my message, you'd see that I
> don't get the noise when I don't have the router plugged in. The first
> thing BT asks me is to unplug any other equipment - I do that, noise
> goes away, and they say the line is OK.
[1]
>> If they accept it, and there's a chance they won't because a
>> high-resistance fault often tests as OK, then you need to do
>> whatever you can to get the engineer to use the old "tone and amp"
>> method of faultfinding. Basically, a signal generator
>> (affectionately called a 'tone') is placed across your line at the
>> exchange and a 1KHz tone squirted down it. If the line is good, ie,
>> no HR fault, the engineer can short the tone out at the far end. If
>> the tone can't be shorted out then there's a dis or HR fault
>> somewhere.
>
> They won't accept that there's a fault on the line, so I can not get
> a BT engineer to do a proper line test. My fear is that BT will come
> on-site, not hear any fault then charge me 160 quid.
>
>
>> My first port of call would be the cab (you won't be fed directly
>> from the exchange) and if OK to there then I'd come directly to your
>> house, where I'd expect that the tone couldn't be shorted out. Then
>> it's a case of working back towards the cab, halving the distance
>> each time until the fault is found.
>
> I'm fed from a pole - which I pointed out in my original message.
Yes but, in my 17 years experience as a cable jointer on BT it was extremely
rare to find a pole fed directly from the exchange MDF, even when it's as
close to the exchange as you are. Your pole will, I can almost guarantee, be
fed from a cabinet somewhere.
>> HR faults need time, patience and the 'tone and amp' method to find
>> because the test equipment used by the faults desk when you report
>> it, and also the field engineer's equipment, put out such
>> voltages/currents so as to be able to 'jump over' the HR joint and
>> test OK.
>
> BT do not, in my experience, give you time and petience these
> days. They're too woried about their shareholders profits to actually
> spend money on solving little issues like this.
Can't argue with that.
>> Having said all that, your symptoms, ie, noise when the router is
>> plugged in, highly suggests faulty or poor quality filters. I'd
>> forget individual filters and go for one of these filtered face
>> plates:
>>
>> http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16134&cat=262&page=1
>
> I've tried alternative faceplaces, filters and whatnot. Even no filter
> with the router plugged right into the test socket.
[1]
Well, lets look at it logically. Voice telephony makes use of frequencies up
to 4KHz. Broadband is superimposed over the top of that with ADSL1 (up to
8Mbps) and ADSL2 (up to 12Mbps) using frequencies above the 4KHz used by
voice and going up to 1.1MHz, and 'never the twain shall meet' as the saying
goes.
A filter, be it a faceplate type or a microfilter, performs two jobs. It
stops high frequency noise getting into the telephone and affecting voice
quality and secondly it prevents the telephone equipment from interfering
with the ADSL modem.
If noise is only present when the router is plugged in, then no matter how
unlikely it seems, it _must_ be the filter(s) at fault. Any equipment
anywhere in the house that is going to be connected to the telephone line,
ie, telephone, Sky TV box, fax machine etc must be connected through a
filter (unless you use a filtered faceplate). Only the router can have an
unfiltered connection. Have a look here for differences in filters and make
sure that the ones you have are of the best quality (which is why I
suggested the Clarity faceplate)
http://www.adslnation.co.uk/support/filters.php
> I'm just whinging about it because I can and it makes me feel better.
> When it's really bad, I strip out and re-wire all my internal wiring
> in the hope it was me, but it never is. Do all the tests from the
> test socket and it's always the same. This has been going on for
> years now - every time I get a week or so of dry weather, I know to
> expect problems, but have never been able to get BT to accept it and
> do a line test without the threat of having to pay 160 quid to fix
> something that's not my fault.
If you're really absolutely positive beyond all doubt that you have the best
quality filters that money can buy and they're working, I'd be inclined to
pay the £160 that BT want. It's not worth all the hassle you're enduring and
all the time you're spending striping out and redoing wiring. £160 averaged
out over however many years you've been suffering is not a lot of money :o)
Mark
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Yes (they're actually from Openreach not BT). The last one who
visited me had a crappy USB modem which connected much slower than any
of my routers.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
The Natural Philosopher
all routers/Dslams put significant hiss on the line.
The crackles are something else though.
> I think it's some sort of bad joint/rectification issue on the line from
> my house to the pole or from the pole to the exchange (which I think
> is underground)
>
Agreed. It probably is. Getting BT to accept that and fix it is another
matter though.
> But how do I get BT to come out and test it, and admit there's a
> fault without them charging me £160 quid or whatever it is these days.
> (It would be cheaper for me to install a new line, port the number into
> my VoIP platform and cancel the old one - however, it's a 2-pair drop
> cable into my house, so I doubt it would help)
>
> I'm almost tempted to get a ladder and climb the pole and check the
> terminations myself...
>
> Of-course, it's going to rain later today so my problems will magically
> dissapear as they usually do, so even if I did book an appointment with
> BT, then there's a good chance it'll have gone by the time they turn up,
> and therefore charge me )-:
>
This is the sort of case where a tree branch 'accidentally' falling down
across a line can help.
But be patient. For about three years every few months my car would
fail to start. Generally slamming the rear door fixed it. Last year it
failed to start completely and I had to trailer it in, but at least the
fault was then easy to find. One new fuel pump and its crackin Gromit!
> Gordon
The Natural Philosopher
Guess why I went to IDnet.
lower line rental, and PAYG phone, but I use voip for 99% of the calls
anyway.
And they have a decent relationship with openreach, so faults do get fixed.
> Gordon
The Natural Philosopher
>
> If noise is only present when the router is plugged in, then no matter how
> unlikely it seems, it _must_ be the filter(s) at fault.
Not so
Any non-linearity in the wires will cause intermodulation products from
the ADSL to fold down inside the audio band. ALL routers/DLSAMS make a
bit of hiss, - ive got two filters in series, and it still happens. Its
also possible for demodulation and mixing to occur from HF leakthrough
the filters - perfectly in spec - to the front end of your PABX or whatever.
Finally, your router and the DSLAM itself may be actually generating via
similar mechanisms, baseband noise. Most of them do.
Peter Crosland
news:X6ydndWz1OmIsWDW...@bt.com...
A quite ludicrous suggestion that makes no real sense at all. What is
required is a systematic approach checking each thing step by step. All
tests need to be done from the test socket (behind the faceplate) with just
the modem/router and a phone connected via a top quality filter such as
those sold by ADSL Nation. In my experience, good as they may be in other
respects, the Draytek range to not have particularly good ADSL performance.
By that I mean that the don't sync particularly well and often at a lower
speed than is achievable. I have also found, top my and other's cost, that
most modem/routers just cannot handle lines that are noise and intermittent
like yours is. You really need to involve your ISP as you are their customer
and it is their responsibility to deal with BT on your behalf. Since you are
experiencing audible noise on the line it may well be worth you tackling BT
about the line quality without mentioning broadband at all before you embark
on the suggestions above. .
Peter Crosland
Gordon Henderson
Peter Crosland <g6...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>A quite ludicrous suggestion that makes no real sense at all. What is
>required is a systematic approach checking each thing step by step. All
>tests need to be done from the test socket (behind the faceplate) with just
>the modem/router and a phone connected via a top quality filter such as
>those sold by ADSL Nation.
I have been through this in a most systematic way. And it's happened
several times over the past few years - it always happens when it's been
hot and dry for a few days - a bit of breeze makes it worse. (Which is
why I think it's the termination at the pole - the wire comes inside my
house unbroken to the master socket.
These are the faceplates I install:
http://www.solwise.co.uk/images/adsl-nteface-mid.gif
installed a few dozen so-far and I tried all the spares I have in my
own socket with no difference.
> In my experience, good as they may be in other
>respects, the Draytek range to not have particularly good ADSL performance.
My experience of installing a few dozen of them suggests otherwise,
and the old 2600's with the long-line code worked where others simply
wouldn't sync at all.
>By that I mean that the don't sync particularly well and often at a lower
>speed than is achievable. I have also found, top my and other's cost, that
>most modem/routers just cannot handle lines that are noise and intermittent
>like yours is. You really need to involve your ISP as you are their customer
>and it is their responsibility to deal with BT on your behalf. Since you are
>experiencing audible noise on the line it may well be worth you tackling BT
>about the line quality without mentioning broadband at all before you embark
>on the suggestions above. .
I am the ISP - in my capacity as a reseller of another ISP anyways.
(Entanet), and I have been onto them in the past - they've done the BT
test thing and will only suggest calling in BT at a potential cost. I
have avoided contacting them this time, as I'm sure it's not really a
broadband issue but more a line fault issue.
Gordon
Gordon Henderson
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>This is the sort of case where a tree branch 'accidentally' falling down
>across a line can help.
Don't think it hasn't crossed my mind - the down-side is that there are
no tree branches in the way )-:
And there are too many houses nearby for another approach involving
lead pellets...
>But be patient. For about three years every few months my car would
>fail to start. Generally slamming the rear door fixed it. Last year it
>failed to start completely and I had to trailer it in, but at least the
>fault was then easy to find. One new fuel pump and its crackin Gromit!
Heh...
What's annoying me is that I used to have ISDN2 (well home highway) way
back in the dim and distant past, and I remember the BT man at the time
saying that he'd had to do work on the pole to get my line to work,
so I'd sort of hoped that when I was converted to ADSL, I'd have a
really good line... Doesn't seem that way )-:
Ah well, I'll make him a cup of coffee and see what he says tomorow...
Gordon
Gordon Henderson
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Guess why I went to IDnet.
>
>lower line rental, and PAYG phone, but I use voip for 99% of the calls
>anyway.
>
>And they have a decent relationship with openreach, so faults do get fixed.
Well, there is still the option of installing a 2nd line from someone
other than BT retail, (to get a new pair) migrating ADSL and porting my
old number into VoIP - I've also made >99% of my calls via VoIP for the
past few years, but then, I do run my own VoIP company :)
Gordon
Gordon Henderson
John <no...@inuse.com> wrote:
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> In article <066dndBtY5WBi2DW...@bt.com>,
>> John <no...@inuse.com> wrote:
>>> Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>>> This is probably just a frustrated rant...
>>>>
>>>> So here's the issue - and it's been going on for some years now...
>>>>
>>>> We get a period of hot, dry weather and then my ADSL line starts to
>>>> drop-out. A bit of wind, such as today makes it worse.
>>>>
>>>> I've tried everything I feel I can try at my end - 3 different
>>>> filters, 2 different ADSL modem/routers (although both Draytek, but
>>>> different models), going into the master socket, changed the
>>>> faceplate, and so on.
>>>>
>>>> My line, while under 600 metres from the exchange (a good catapault
>>>> and I could hit it), is marginal an I only just get 8Mb in and 830Kb
>>>> up - that's what I usually get though, but it's marginal and I feel
>>>> it should be
>>>> much much better.
>
>Don't understand this at all. You say you're only 600 metres from the
>exchange and that you get 8Mb in and 830Kb up but that it's marginal and you
>should get better. Marginal is when someone is 6Km from the exchange and can
>only get 512Kbps down. What ADSL product are you on, ie, up to 8Mbps? up to
>12Mbps? up to 24Mbps?
It's marginal for what should be a rock-solid connection at an 8Mb sync
speed. Sometimes it drops slower - especially now, it's down to 6Mb. I'm
not suggesting it's marginal for ADSL, just that, given the distance
and knowing what my neighbours get, I ought to get 8Mb rock-solid 100%
of the time with much better SNR numbers, and not "just" 8Mb apart from
when the sun shines when it goes slower.
What I am sort of concerend about is that should our exchange ever get
ADSL2+ (it probably never will being rural and all that), then I'll be
stuck at 8Mb when my neighbours are syncing at 20Mb or more...
Gordon
Java Jive
things, and to me both of what you and John have to say seem to have
some merit.
If the noise is only present when the router is attached, then the
most obvious suggestion, as John has pointed out, is that the router
is causing the noise. However I believe it is possible for a line
fault to introduce stray capacitance, and that would be frequency
sensitive, tending to short more at high frequencies, so perhaps might
affect the ADSL frequencies without being too obvious in the audible
range. In this case, perhaps it might be possible that the presence
of the ADSL signal somehow makes the fault more audible.
Here are a couple of other points to watch out for ...
Routers are often prone to overheating. I've had several whose
performance deteriorates in hot weather. Currently, I have an el
cheapo Maplins, and I have it perched on two pencils so that there is
more room for air to circulate around it, particular past the vents
underneath it, but would rather a better solution if I could
find/afford it.
Filters can pick up electro-magnetic interference. If by oversight I
allow some of mine to hang against or rest on one of the plug-type
power supplies commonly called wall-warts, then I get bad noise on the
line.
On Wed, 26 May 2010 16:10:28 +0000 (UTC), Gordon Henderson
<gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>
>
> I have been through this in a most systematic way. And it's happened
> several times over the past few years - it always happens when it's been
> hot and dry for a few days - a bit of breeze makes it worse. (Which is
> why I think it's the termination at the pole - the wire comes inside my
> house unbroken to the master socket.
--
=========================================================
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html
Peter Crosland
news:htjh5k$1mk7$1...@energise.enta.net...
Noted on the faceplates that have a reasonable quality filter in them but it
does not get away from the need to connect to the test socket to make
absolutely sure there is not a problem in the wiring from the master socket
onwards. As for the noise issue then really the normal BT voice faults has
to be the next step. This should be free or do you resell the line as well?
Peter Crosland
alexd
> Do BT staff have 'test' ADSL modems in their toolkit like they have test
> handsets?
A broadband SFI engineer will, but I don't think the engineer who comes
round in response to a voice fault will.
--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEs...@ale.cx)
20:58:03 up 28 days, 21:35, 0 users, load average: 0.30, 0.27, 0.21
It is better to have been wasted and then sober
than to never have been wasted at all
tony sayer
>fault without them charging me �160 quid or whatever it is these days.
>(It would be cheaper for me to install a new line, port the number into
>my VoIP platform and cancel the old one - however, it's a 2-pair drop
>cable into my house, so I doubt it would help)
>
>I'm almost tempted to get a ladder and climb the pole and check the
>terminations myself...
>
>Of-course, it's going to rain later today so my problems will magically
>dissapear as they usually do, so even if I did book an appointment with
>BT, then there's a good chance it'll have gone by the time they turn up,
>and therefore charge me )-:
>
>Gordon
We had a similar problem sometime ago and the ISP in use threw the
problem at BT and then BT threw it back at the ISP. In the end we
changed ISP to Zen Internet who made BT sort the problem and since that
time all's worked very well on Draytek routers:)
However there are many and several people I know who'd murder someone to
get those speeds tho!. They have to put up with a meg or so maybe thats
dropping around all over the place on some 6 odd Km of BT best string!..
BTW no radio hams nearby at all operating at all especially HF ones?..
If your stressed by the noise and the threat of BT charging for their
fault, can you not record it for the Openwretch man to hear?..
--
Tony Sayer
Gordon Henderson
tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
>>But how do I get BT to come out and test it, and admit there's a
>>fault without them charging me �160 quid or whatever it is these days.
>>(It would be cheaper for me to install a new line, port the number into
>>my VoIP platform and cancel the old one - however, it's a 2-pair drop
>>cable into my house, so I doubt it would help)
>>
>>I'm almost tempted to get a ladder and climb the pole and check the
>>terminations myself...
>>
>>Of-course, it's going to rain later today so my problems will magically
>>dissapear as they usually do, so even if I did book an appointment with
>>BT, then there's a good chance it'll have gone by the time they turn up,
>>and therefore charge me )-:
>>
>>Gordon
>
>
>We had a similar problem sometime ago and the ISP in use threw the
>problem at BT and then BT threw it back at the ISP. In the end we
>changed ISP to Zen Internet who made BT sort the problem and since that
>time all's worked very well on Draytek routers:)
I did try directly with the upstream - Entanet - and we did get BT to
run the usual test - who sait it was OK, we I asked for a re-test, but
by then it was days later and it had rained, so I knew I was going to
be OK for the next few months - but this was the last time it happened
enough to get me annoyed was last year. This in't the first this year,
but it's never been for more than an hour or so recently - then it's
rained. (I line in the 2nd wettest town in Devon)
>However there are many and several people I know who'd murder someone to
>get those speeds tho!. They have to put up with a meg or so maybe thats
>dropping around all over the place on some 6 odd Km of BT best string!..
I know - I'd be happy if it was half that and stable. Right now, it's
lasting for somewhere from 1-5 minutes then resetting.
>BTW no radio hams nearby at all operating at all especially HF ones?..
Not that I know of. Nothing new has popped up antannae wise that I can
see, and my neighbours seem OK. I temporarily used one of their networks
earlier today via Wi-Fi (They knew about it) and it was fine. Slow
because they use a low quality ISP, but otherwise fine.
>If your stressed by the noise and the threat of BT charging for their
>fault, can you not record it for the Openwretch man to hear?..
I did record it - and he heard it when I called.
Lets see what tomorow brings - I got a slot from 8am to 1pm. Surprised
to get it so quickly.
Gordon
Graham
Hi John,
You rightly stated that the ADSL spectrum is above the highest voice frequency
so they should, all things being equal, co-exist in the pair.
But, it is almost certain that on Gordon's line there is some non-linearity which
is causing a phenomenon that RF engineers simply call mixing.
This non-linier component could be a rusty screw terminal or other
corroded connector of some kind. This forms a crude diode.
It doesn't have to be a very efficient diode in dc terms, but it can play
havoc with the RF signals effectively demodulating them to audio frequencies.
The mixing or intermediation products are very complex but lets take a simple
example of two adjacent DMT carriers (bins)
IIRC they are about 4kHz apart, our non-linier junction is going to mix these
together and produce sum and difference signals of 4 and 8 kHz.
I think you will agree that the 4kHz component is going to be audible and
remember the process is more complex than this illustration and what you get
is white noise (more accurately pink noise) at the HF end of the voice frequencies.
The thing you have to understand is that these audio artefacts are now really in the
audio baseband domain, and no amount of RF filtering (micro-filters) is going to
improve matters, the "twain" as you put it have met!
The other very significant thing Gordon's story, that points to the "Rusty Bolt Effect" (It really is called that!), is the
weather factor. Moisture level plays an important part in making these diodes, although in my experience the problem usually gets
*worse* in damp weather.
As for your suggestion about paying the �160, that's what they charge for a "no fault found"
If they *found* the fault, even inadvertently, by remaking all the connections between
the NTE5 and the MDF (there can't be that many), then they shouldn't be making a charge.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
al
> In article <NoowEZEk0X$LF...@bancom.co.uk>,
Hi
Why don't you spray water at the pole and see what happens?
Al
John
Hi Graham,
Very interesting points there my friend. I was a cable jointer on BT between
1980 and 1998 - well before ADSL - so I've never worked on things like this
before. Thanks to your excellent explanation, I've gained a bit more of an
insight into how things work there. My gut instinct says that there's an HR
fault somewhere in the network as I said earlier in the thread, but it was
just Gordon's point about the noise only being present when the router was
plugged in that was throwing me in the direction of filters.
A lot of telephone engineers only use the 'tone and amp' as pair
identification rather than a faultfinding tool. If Gordon can convince the
engineer tomorrow to use that method and spend a bit of time on it, I'm sure
he'll find the fault.
I look forward to the outcome :o)
The Natural Philosopher
high resistance almost always involves an oxide layer: copper oxide has
been used in rectifiers (diodes) in the past before silicon came along.
Its a beautifully smooth RF mixer.
I've personally measured nonlinearity in silver oxide coated plugs -
sufficient to cause a problem on an (audio amp) test production line,
at very very low actual impedances. So the presence of a low resistance
but otherwise oxidised joint is possible: don't assume that because the
resistance is low, oxide rectification and mixing is not present.
HOWEVER I am not sure that although such a rectifier would produce
baseband noise, it would actually mess up ADSL performance too much: In
my own case I have quite a lot of hiss, but relatively clean ADSL
performance.
Other possible causes include for example much higher frequencies - SW
up to VHF and beyond, hat are getting mixed down to the ADSL
frequencies. Rain does affect reception of microwave frequencies.
I suppose my final feeling is that ADSL is really a bit of the luck of
the draw. To get the very best out of it requires a a line quality that
is rarely seen in cabling designed to be moderately suitable for voice:
Its a bloody miracle it works at all.
> A lot of telephone engineers only use the 'tone and amp' as pair
> identification rather than a faultfinding tool. If Gordon can convince the
> engineer tomorrow to use that method and spend a bit of time on it, I'm sure
> he'll find the fault.
>
Ultimately the engineer can do no more than switch pairs when he can,
and remake joints.
knowing what fault there is on a line, is possibly not as relevant as
simply attempting to fix it.
> I look forward to the outcome :o)
>
>
Good luck.
Gordon Henderson
Gordon Henderson <gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>Lets see what tomorow brings - I got a slot from 8am to 1pm. Surprised
>to get it so quickly.
Well overnight hasn't seen any improvement and it hasn't rained either -
however my line has stayed up for over an hour! But it's dropped down
to 2Mb )-:
Watch my BRAS profile vanish here:
http://unicorn.drogon.net/profile.txt
Gordon
Gordon Henderson
And so the man from BT openreach has come ... and gone ... and didn't
find any line faults.
He whacked the drop-wire from the house to the pole with a big long
telescopic thing ... Nothing. Put a tone test on the line at my end
and tried to get access to the cab - couldn't due to a car being parked
in-front of it, went to the exchange where he recnoked it was OK. Did a
full line test with his laptop and hawk tester - it came out all green
apart from one yellow - which was flagged at 97% (didn't have my glasses
on, so couldn't read the test name)
Reconected ADSL modem up and it's actually slightly worse than
before. Currently syncing at 6.5Mb. Loop att. hasn't changes (23db),
SNR Margin is slightly higher - currently 16 - when it's been 13 ish in
the past.
So top-marks to the BT chap for doing the full battery of tests, but
shame it's not found anything.
So I guess they'll bill me now )-:
Oh well, if I'm going to be billed, I might as well get a new line from
a company with a UK call centre and put money back into smaller companies
rather than behmonths like BT retail.
Gordon
bod43
> So I guess they'll bill me now )-:
Do they actually charge? I used to support DSL lines for
a small reseller of BT DSL and often had the big bill
theat made. Never actually had any real bills though.
Loads of repeat visits when stuff was not working. Mostly on
initial installation.
We didn't want to buy wholesale since it was way more
trouble than it was worth but at the end of the day it
was better for our users so we did it as part of an
IT services package.
Fredxx
The fact he didn't find fault doesn't mean there isn't one. Are you using
your ISP supplied router? Yes I know you've tested you broadband with
others as well.
The crucial bit is to make sure the operator you talk to make a note of the
background crackle. I had a similar problem a few years ago and was never
charged. If I was I would complain to the magic complaints address, also
saying that the problem is still there and perhaps you should be getting
compensation for BT not fixing it within their requisite week!
Good luck!!
Gordon Henderson
When I got got broadband, I opted for the "self install" package that
was doing the rounds at the time - and bought my own router. That was
some 5 years ago. Subsequent to that I changed ISP (to Entanet - as
I'm a reseller of their services), and put in what was a relatively new
(2nd hand but I knew it's providence) Draytek 2600vg router. (Wi-Fi is
turned off, not that that would make a difference) When I was doing the
checks yesterday I tried a brand new Draytek 2820 with no significant
change.
And yes, I went into the *test* socket on the NTE5 (Which I often
mistakenly write as the master socket, but I really did use the test
socket behind the faceplate)
>The crucial bit is to make sure the operator you talk to make a note of the
>background crackle. I had a similar problem a few years ago and was never
>charged. If I was I would complain to the magic complaints address, also
>saying that the problem is still there and perhaps you should be getting
>compensation for BT not fixing it within their requisite week!
The operator I spoke with did hear the crackle when I called - but the
issue now is that there is (or appears to be) nothing wrong with the line.
I did find out where the pole connections go to - where the street
cabinet is, and it actually goes further away from the exchange before
almost doubling back to go to the exchange, so I may be a little further
away cable wise - I should have asked the engineer what the actual line
length was. I have one neighbour fed off the same pole - most of the
other connections go to houses in the courtyard the pole is situated in
the middle of.
Ho hum. If it happens again, I'm still up for having a new line put in,
but I'll wait.
Gordon
alexd
> Do they actually charge? I used to support DSL lines for
> a small reseller of BT DSL and often had the big bill
> theat made. Never actually had any real bills though.
Yes, they definitely do charge. Since Openreach was split out from the
rest of BT and theoretically has to be independent, they have more of an
incentive to charge now.
--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEs...@ale.cx)
20:05:16 up 29 days, 20:45, 0 users, load average: 0.24, 0.15, 0.16
Gordon Henderson
alexd <trof...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 27/05/10 14:41, bod43 wrote:
>
>> Do they actually charge? I used to support DSL lines for
>> a small reseller of BT DSL and often had the big bill
>> theat made. Never actually had any real bills though.
>
>Yes, they definitely do charge. Since Openreach was split out from the
>rest of BT and theoretically has to be independent, they have more of an
>incentive to charge now.
And they (BT retail) have confirmed that they're going to charge me.
Gordon
Mark
Pay them using a plywood cheque:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/09/plywood_cheque/
;-)
Just because they threaten to charge does not mean that they have a
right to. You have confirmed to them that this is an intermittant
fault. Just because they can't find it does not disprove the fact.
tony sayer
<gordon...@drogon.net> scribeth thus
Well protest. Go public but perhaps first ask them to fix you up with
another pair or line from the exchange to see if that cures the problem.
Its not your fault that this is happening, jeezzzz just how many other
services companies could get away with this fecking robbery.
Also have a good whinge at Ofcom and get them involved!..
This happened to a mate of mine and it was a line fault all along and a
new pair cured it completely!..
Don't take it lying down Gordon.. I bloody well wouldn't!...
--
Tony Sayer
Gordon Henderson
I know, I know... I do have an email dialog going with btcare, so we'll
see what happens come bill time - then I'll excercise the power of
social media.
I have a plan B in-hand, so we'll see what happens.
My connection has been online since yesterday afternoon - it's stable,
but 1.5Mb down from what it was 3 days ago.
Gordon
Fredxx
Write to:
BT Customer Service Manager
BT Customer Correspondence Centre
Durham
DH98 1BT
As being the highest level of complaint before the ombudsman.
Say the fault was confirmed by the operator you spoke to, and that they may
wish to access the recording with them to confirm.
Say that you have used a variety of equipment at your end and the problem is
still there.
You might like to be cheeky and ask for compensation if the fault lasts more
than the allotted week.
Ask them to look into this with a view to resolving the fault and to not
charge or refund their charge.
In theory whilst the dispute is ongoing, the charge should be ring fenced.
If not then another complaint.
Martin Jay
<gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>And they (BT retail) have confirmed that they're going to charge me.
Did BT identify a fault with your equipment?
From
<http://bt.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/1454703/1255094078/redirect/1>:
----- Begin Quote -----
But some faults, even ones that seem like network problems, may really
be caused by a problem with your wiring or equipment. Unfortunately,
if a technician comes round and it turns out that the source of the
problem is with your wiring or equipment, then you will be charged for
the visit. So it’s worth carrying out a few simple checks, just to
work out exactly what kind of problem you’re dealing with.
----- End Quote -----
The fact that an intermittent fault didn't raise its head when BT's
"technician" visited doesn't mean your equipment is faulty. And if BT
can't demonstrate your equipment is the source of the fault they
can't, or shouldn't, charge you for the visit.
--
Martin Jay
Gordon Henderson
There's the issue - there currently is no fault as such. It's intermittent
- they knew that and the BT openreach chap was told that when he arrived
- and by the time he'd arrived the fault had gone and his testing didn't
find anything wrong with the line.
That's where I think it'll get sticky - the evidence I have in terms of
the fault recordings, adsl disconnection logs, etc. will probably not
be considered since the engineer tested the line and found it fault-free.
I have exchanged email with btcare, so we'll see what happens at bill
time. If they bill me, I will use the power of social media to express
my displeasure at them and move.
Unfortnately, I don't have too much time and capacity to really deal
with this - so their coprorate bullying will win the day.
Gordon
Mark
This area always is a bit confused IMHO. Do they charge you iff they
find a fault in your equipment or if they can't find a fault. I was
under the impression that the official policy is the latter but
normally the former would apply in practice. My ISP told me that the
former applies.
The link you posted also seems to suggest the former but I'm sure if
you search the BT site thoroughly enough you will find a document that
contradicts this.
Mark
I'm sure these large companies rely on this which means that regularly
get away with it. This makes it harder for the rest of us to enforce
our rights. If no-one put up with it I'm sure it would stop
overnight.
This is why I would always complain if (when) I am in this situation
and I don't give up easily!
George Weston
Probably worth an email to the BBC Watchdog programme too?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/gotastory/
George
bod43
> In article <htlsrl$su...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
> The operator I spoke with did hear the crackle when I called - but the
> issue now is that there is (or appears to be) nothing wrong with the line.
>
> I did find out where the pole connections go to - where the street
> cabinet is, and it actually goes further away from the exchange before
> almost doubling back to go to the exchange, so I may be a little further
> away cable wise - I should have asked the engineer what the actual line
> length was. I have one neighbour fed off the same pole - most of the
> other connections go to houses in the courtyard the pole is situated in
> the middle of.
>
> Ho hum. If it happens again, I'm still up for having a new line put in,
> but I'll wait.
It was two or three years ago but we certainly found that the
fault fixing team was pretty poor. There was never anything
wrong with our stuff (well we had been through that before
tackling BT and we had plenty "known good" routers) and
there were quite a few cases where
multiple visits were required before they finally pressed the
right button (or whatever) in the exchange and it all burst
into life.
Eventually they all got fixed and it was always BT although
of course they did not always admit it.
"I'll just test the line sir - no fault found" but miraculously
everything bursts into life at that instant.
I wouldn't think there was a chance that they would take
you to court under the circumstances. Those being that
they are not smart enough to figure out the root cause
of an intermittant fault in their equipment but they want
you to pay for their failure.
Petert
<gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>In article <Z5t*dD...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
>Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>In uk.telecom Gordon Henderson <gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>>> In article <X5t*-m0...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
>>> Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> >We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
>>> >the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
>>> >Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
>>> >on another pair, problem solved).
>>>
>>> I'm sure that would solve my problem.
>>
>>Assuming it's not your dropwire, of course. Ours goes through a tree:
>>poking the wire leaning out the window with a broom had no noticeable effect
>>so I was fairly sure the fault wasn't there..
>
>The dropwire is fine - I can see it all the way from my house to the
>pole. It's not far as these things go.
You can't be sure the dropwire is OK - visually fine, but what is the
connection like on the pole?
--
Cheers
Peter
Petert
<gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>In article <htl3vq$11t7$1...@energise.enta.net>,
>Gordon Henderson <gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>>In article <htjvp1$2e0g$1...@energise.enta.net>,
>>Gordon Henderson <gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Lets see what tomorow brings - I got a slot from 8am to 1pm. Surprised
>>>to get it so quickly.
>>
>>Well overnight hasn't seen any improvement and it hasn't rained either -
>>however my line has stayed up for over an hour! But it's dropped down
>>to 2Mb )-:
>>
>>Watch my BRAS profile vanish here:
>>
>> http://unicorn.drogon.net/profile.txt
>
>And so the man from BT openreach has come ... and gone ... and didn't
>find any line faults.
>
>He whacked the drop-wire from the house to the pole with a big long
>telescopic thing ... Nothing.
So he didn't climb the DP and inspect the connection?
--
Cheers
Peter
Gordon Henderson
Aparently they're not allowed to go above 5.2m when they're on their
own. Something to do with an engineer's ladder being hit by a passing
tuck and killing the engineer last year. The telescopic pole he had had
a big red ring on it at 5.2m length.
Gordon
Russell Hafter News
> >> http://unicorn.drogon.net/profile.txt
Not sure how similar telephone wiring and mains wiring are,
but my nextdoor neighbour had been having mains power
disappearing completely on an intermittant basis. UPSs
working double time! All overhead wiring here, mains and
telecoms.
Yesterday UU visited, inspected everything, including
climbing up to the mains terminals on the outside of the
house. Found one of the insulators or whatever they are was
buggered and replaced it. No problems since!!
--
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
Petert
<gordon...@drogon.net> wrote:
So he didn't fully inspect your cct back to the exchange. I would
mention this in your letter to BT and request that an elevated
platform be used to check what is a vulnerable point on the cct - the
connection between the dropwire and the cable that rises up the pole
from the cabinet (or directly from the exchange in your case)
--
Cheers
Peter
tony sayer
>
>Aparently they're not allowed to go above 5.2m when they're on their
>own. Something to do with an engineer's ladder being hit by a passing
>tuck and killing the engineer last year. The telescopic pole he had had
>a big red ring on it at 5.2m length.
>
>Gordon
So why would having another man around have prevented that happening?..
--
Tony Sayer
alexd
> Eventually they all got fixed and it was always BT although
> of course they did not always admit it.
>
> "I'll just test the line sir - no fault found" but miraculously
> everything bursts into life at that instant.
Yep, it's still the same [although in my case with ISDN30]. The BT
engineer 'proved' the circuit was fine by looping back the BNCs, even
though the phone system in question was connecting with RJ45. As luck
would have it, the customer still had the old phone system on the wall
with BNC connectors, and when we hooked it up to the NTE, still the
alarm light remained. The BT engineer swore blind that this obviously
meant that the 15 year old phone system and the 2 year old phone system
were both faulty. The BT engineer went back to the exchange to get an
RJ45 loopback cable [loopback cables apparently being the extent of his
ISDN30 test equipment arsenal], and we agreed that I'd reboot the PBX
whilst he was away "just in case". It took a while to get the customer
to agree to a reboot in the middle of the working day, and whilst I was
waiting for everyone to get off the phone, I noticed the alarm light on
the NTE went off. Shortly after the BT engineer rings my mobile and says
"looks like that reboot fixed it then!", and I said "what reboot?". He
eventually agreed there's some sort of intermittent line fault and if it
happens again, the next BT engineer will come with some proper PRI
testing gear. What a fucking shower. This was only Wednesday, so no
bills through yet, but any attempt to levy a FNF charge will be
vigorously contested.
--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEs...@ale.cx)
09:56:25 up 31 days, 10:41, 0 users, load average: 0.29, 0.24, 0.19
tony sayer
<trof...@hotmail.com> scribeth thus
>On 28/05/10 17:20, bod43 wrote:
>
>> Eventually they all got fixed and it was always BT although
>> of course they did not always admit it.
>>
>> "I'll just test the line sir - no fault found" but miraculously
>> everything bursts into life at that instant.
>
>Yep, it's still the same [although in my case with ISDN30]. The BT
>engineer 'proved' the circuit was fine by looping back the BNCs, even
>though the phone system in question was connecting with RJ45. As luck
>would have it, the customer still had the old phone system on the wall
>with BNC connectors, and when we hooked it up to the NTE, still the
>alarm light remained. The BT engineer swore blind that this obviously
>meant that the 15 year old phone system and the 2 year old phone system
>were both faulty. The BT engineer went back to the exchange to get an
>RJ45 loopback cable [loopback cables apparently being the extent of his
>ISDN30 test equipment arsenal], and we agreed that I'd reboot the PBX
>whilst he was away "just in case". It took a while to get the customer
>to agree to a reboot in the middle of the working day, and whilst I was
>waiting for everyone to get off the phone, I noticed the alarm light on
>the NTE went off. Shortly after the
* BT engineer
rings my mobile and says
>"looks like that reboot fixed it then!", and I said "what reboot?". He
>eventually agreed there's some sort of intermittent line fault and if
it
>happens again, the next BT engineer will come with some proper PRI
>testing gear. What a fucking shower. This was only Wednesday, so no
>bills through yet, but any attempt to levy a FNF charge will be
>vigorously contested.
Too right!...
>
* Yes Engineer. I somehow don't think an engineer would be so adversely
equipped does anyone?..
--
Tony Sayer
George Weston
A misnomer. Even BT themselves call them *technicians*.
The only *engineers* (those with engineering degrees) you'll find in BT
are invariably in the management/professional structure. You certainly
won't find one in an Openreach van!
George
tony sayer
>> * BT engineer
>>
>>
>> rings my mobile and says
>>> "looks like that reboot fixed it then!", and I said "what reboot?". He
>>> eventually agreed there's some sort of intermittent line fault and if
>> it
>>> happens again, the next BT engineer will come with some proper PRI
>>> testing gear. What a fucking shower. This was only Wednesday, so no
>>> bills through yet, but any attempt to levy a FNF charge will be
>>> vigorously contested.
>>
>> Too right!...
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * Yes Engineer. I somehow don't think an engineer would be so adversely
>> equipped does anyone?..
>
>A misnomer. Even BT themselves call them *technicians*.
>The only *engineers* (those with engineering degrees) you'll find in BT
>are invariably in the management/professional structure. You certainly
>won't find one in an Openreach van!
>
>George
So they've got one eh?. Where do they keep him;?..
--
Tony Sayer
Mark
wrote:
>On 27 May, 15:10, Gordon Henderson <gordon+use...@drogon.net> wrote:
>> In article <htlsrl$su...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>
>> The operator I spoke with did hear the crackle when I called - but the
>> issue now is that there is (or appears to be) nothing wrong with the line.
>>
>> I did find out where the pole connections go to - where the street
>> cabinet is, and it actually goes further away from the exchange before
>> almost doubling back to go to the exchange, so I may be a little further
>> away cable wise - I should have asked the engineer what the actual line
>> length was. I have one neighbour fed off the same pole - most of the
>> other connections go to houses in the courtyard the pole is situated in
>> the middle of.
>>
>> Ho hum. If it happens again, I'm still up for having a new line put in,
>> but I'll wait.
>
>It was two or three years ago but we certainly found that the
>fault fixing team was pretty poor. There was never anything
>wrong with our stuff (well we had been through that before
>tackling BT and we had plenty "known good" routers) and
>there were quite a few cases where
>multiple visits were required before they finally pressed the
>right button (or whatever) in the exchange and it all burst
>into life.
My beef with the repair processes is that OR charge for 2 hour slots.
When I last had a fault the OR guy checked the dropwire, found a
fault, and fixed it within the two hours.
However the fix did not improve the situation at all so I assume that
there is another fault somewhere else, which still remains unchecked.