Broadband Renewal

[Jeff Gaines]

My contract with PlusNet expires in early January and although they have
offered to renew it (WITH a phone line) they seem keen for me to transfer
to a new package with no phone line and hall my current speed.

Are there people here who have given up their landline? If so how do you
get on without it? Mobile is OK round here, especially with WiFi calling,
so it's tempting to give up the line but I wondered if it might lead to
any practical issues?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
If you ever find something you like buy a lifetime supply because they
will stop making it

[Andy Burns]

Jeff Gaines wrote:

> Are there people here who have given up their landline?

Not yet, see my reply elsewhere.

> If so how do you
> get on without it? Mobile is OK round here, especially with WiFi
> calling, so it's tempting to give up the line but I wondered if it might
> lead to any practical issues?

I think when the time comes, the choice will be between paying roughly
double to keep existing broadband+phone past my 18 month minimum
contract, or renew broadband only on a similar deal and pay an extra
£3/month to transfer the phone number to my existing voipfone account.

[Tweed]

I ported my landline number to Andrews and Arnold. Costs £1.44 per month.
You can either buy a voip DECT phone (or similar) or simply let incoming
calls go to voicemail. These get emailed to you as WAV attachments. That
way you can mop up the odd important inbound call. But otherwise all our
phone business is conducted using mobile phones. I’ve found no practical
issue not using a landline. My two adult offspring have never had a
landline number.

[Woody]

The downside of having no landline is that (if you are married) everyone
has to have two numbers for you, one for you and one for SWMBO. A
landline can be answered by anyone with or without a common answering
machine/voicemail.
A VoIP line has two advantages. As mentioned the provider will usually
forward any voicemail as an email with attachment of the voicemail
message. Also you can have a suitable app on your phone so that when
someone rings your (ex) landline number it can be answered by either of
you as both phones will ring or one answer your domestic phone at home.

Also bear in mind that not everyone likes or can easily use a smartphone
- they just do not work for some people. My wife intently dislikes
touchscreen smartphones and she is a smart and educated (formerly)
professional woman. She has a Doro 612 clamshell phone which she takes
everywhere - albeit she usually only turns it on when she needs to make
or is expecting an incoming call! It has the advantage - like a Nokia
6310i - of a battery that lasts at least a week if it is switched on or
the sharp end of 6 months if it is switched off. Plus the font is big
enough to read without getting her glasses out!

[Andy Burns]

Woody wrote:

> The downside of having no landline is that (if you are married) everyone
> has to have two numbers for you, one for you and one for SWMBO. A
> landline can be answered by anyone with or without a common answering
> machine/voicemail.

Well, you *could* achieve a single number without a landline (by using a
VoIP app on all mobiles, and either have all mobiles with data-only SIMs
or never give out the mobile numbers) but I don't see that's there's
much to recommend that as an approach?

[Mark Carver]

On 02/12/2023 13:59, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> My contract with PlusNet expires in early January and although they have
> offered to renew it (WITH a phone line)

That's interesting. What contract length were they offering for that ?
because PSTN will presumably be switched off (by Openreach) on Dec 31 2025 ?

I was expecting PlusNet to remove PSTN at contract renewal, but it seems
not !?

[Mark Carver]

On 02/12/2023 15:18, Woody wrote:

> A VoIP line has two advantages.

Having dabbled with VoIP, one observation I've made was a couple of
weeks ago I had to call 111.

Doing so in VoIP (at least via Sipgate) I was asked for my 'London
Borough or nearest Tube Station' (I live in Hampshire) in order to
forward the call to the appropriate NHS office etc..

I gave up straight away, and used my mobile. On there 111 sent an SMS
link to allow access to my GPS receiver (Dunno what happens if you have
a dumb phone ?)

On a proper landline, last time a used 111 it bypassed all that crap,
and put me straight into the 35 minute queue for an NHS box ticker to
patronise me.

Presumably the same hoops with 999

[Andy Burns]

Mark Carver wrote:

> I was expecting PlusNet to remove PSTN at contract renewal, but it seems
> not !?

That's what their website says to me, I can stick with existing contract
which will get v.expensive from august and keep phone, or I can take a
new contract without phone for slightly more.

Also looked at EE, they seem to be not offering phone with their
broadband either ...

"You won't be able to get your home phone number back.
You'll have to get a brand new number if you decide you
need a home phone in the future."

That seems to go against the option somebody (Theo?) mentioned here to
take your number to a different provider for up to 30 days?

[Mark Carver]

Last time I dabbled with EE's website it gave a choice of keeping your
existing number, or having a new one issued ?

I thought if you are moving supplier within the 'EE-BT-PN' family, your
number comes with you, without a struggle ?

There's other weirdness. If you move to Sky, from a 'BT' family
supplier, you generally keep your number. If you move house with Sky,
you lose your number, Our son moved 400 yds up the road, and his Sky DV
number changed. (FTTP at old and new house).

I need to find an easy way to migrate my mother away from Plusnet in
April 2025 to an ISP that will retain her number for their DV product.
Anything more than being without her existing (56 year old) number for
more than overnight is not acceptable.

I was thinking of either EE/BT or Zen (Zen is a better deal overall,
because their 'unlimited phone call allowance is cheaper than EE/BT
despite the broadband being more)

[Mark Carver]

On 02/12/2023 17:04, Andy Burns wrote:

> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> I was expecting PlusNet to remove PSTN at contract renewal, but it
>> seems not !?
>
> That's what their website says to me, I can stick with existing contract
> which will get v.expensive from august and keep phone, or I can take a
> new contract without phone for slightly more.
>
> Also looked at EE, they seem to be not offering phone with their
> broadband either ...

Stick you postcode into this, (comes up for me with an option to keep
your landline number) ?

https://ee.co.uk/broadband

[Jeff Gaines]

On 02/12/2023 in message <kt1552...@mid.individual.net> Mark Carver
wrote:

It's 2 years from 4/1/2023 so a couple of days past 31/12/2025. The
pricing is stupid though, I can save £35 a month if I drop the line
(which has free calls).

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

Most people have heard of Karl Marx the philosopher but few know of his
sister Onya the Olympic runner.
Her name is still mentioned at the start of every race.

[Mark Carver]

On 02/12/2023 17:43, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 02/12/2023 in message <kt1552...@mid.individual.net> Mark Carver
> wrote:
>
>> On 02/12/2023 13:59, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> My contract with PlusNet expires in early January and although they
>>> have offered to renew it (WITH a phone line)
>>
>> That's interesting. What contract length were they offering for that ?
>> because PSTN will presumably be switched off (by Openreach) on Dec 31
>> 2025 ?
>>
>> I was expecting PlusNet to remove PSTN at contract renewal, but it
>> seems not !?
>
> It's 2 years from 4/1/2023 so a couple of days past 31/12/2025. The
> pricing is stupid though, I can save £35 a month if I drop the line
> (which has free calls).
>

Sounds like PlusNet are quoting a silly price, to deter you from taking
up the package. Rather like a plumber who's too busy, so quotes way over
the odds !

Weird ! Perhaps there's some arcane Ofcomery that says they still have
to offer PSTN for renewals, if the punter is already on PSTN on their
previous contract !?

[Andy Burns]

Mark Carver wrote:

> Stick you postcode into this, (comes up for me with an option to keep
> your landline number) ?
>
> https://ee.co.uk/broadband

That was the page I used before, but only gave it a postcode, no phone
number before; now I've given it a phone number it still doesn't offer
analogue voice but does offer pay-per-call digital voice for £5/month
(going higher with call bundles).

The page still has warning about not being able to get your number back
though, presumably only applies if you don't take digital voice?
digital voice is a rolling monthly service, so you might be able to take
an analogue plusnet number over to digital voice with EE, then cancel
after 1 month and transfer it to a.n.other VoIP provider?

I will have to find out by August.

[Mark Carver]

On 02/12/2023 18:11, Andy Burns wrote:

> The page still has warning about not being able to get your number back
> though, presumably only applies if you don't take digital voice? digital
> voice is a rolling monthly service, so you might be able to take an
> analogue plusnet number over to digital voice with EE, then cancel after
> 1 month and transfer it to a.n.other VoIP provider?

Interesting. Could work !

[Chris]

No option for retaining landline number here. No full fibre and only VDSL
options.

[David Wade]

On 02/12/2023 13:59, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>

> My contract with PlusNet expires in early January and although they have
> offered to renew it (WITH a phone line) they seem keen for me to
> transfer to a new package with no phone line and hall my current speed.
>
> Are there people here who have given up their landline? If so how do you
> get on without it? Mobile is OK round here, especially with WiFi
> calling, so it's tempting to give up the line but I wondered if it might
> lead to any practical issues?
>

I took out a new FTTP contract with ZEN, because they provide a VOIP
capable router, and then ported my phone number to voipfone.co.uk which
ceased the PlusNet service.

ZEN is more expensive than PlusNet but I am not sure if they let you use
a third party router. If they don't you would need to buy some hardware
which voipfone can supply.

You could do the same A&A who can also supply hardware.

Dave

[Graham J]

If you want to use Zen's "Digital Voice" service, then you probably need
their router. If not, then their FTTP service will work with any
Ethernet router.

Two good reasons for using Zen are:

a) static IP address
b) decent technical support

If you won't appreciate either of these then you can look for cheaper
suppliers.

--
Graham J

[Davey]

On Sun, 3 Dec 2023 08:38:00 +0000
Graham J <nob...@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

> Two good reasons for using Zen are:
>
> a) static IP address

> b) decent technical support...
....who speak English as their first language. Ok, there is a Lancashire
accent, but I'll take that with no complaint.

--
Davey.

[BrightsideS9]

On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 17:19:02 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>
wrote:

I have BT broadband and 700 free minutes on landline to UK numbers and
mobiles

I have just checked my "offers" on BT's web site.e
I can have various broadband options. Each option offers:
1. Broadband only - no home phone
2, Broadband and pay as you go home phone - £3 extra / month.
3. Broadband and unlimited calls on home phone - £11 extra / month.

To be comparable with my current BT contract I would have option 3
above and pay £5.81 above my current price.

Option 2 looks the safer to keep landline number for incoming calls,
but then using mobile(s) for outgoing calls has to be factored in to
the cost.

Having saved £8 by taking option 2 over option 3 leaves £8 to pay
for mobile(s) outgoing calls. This OK for current smart phone users
but may not be so for elderly users, who like me and my missus (both
in our eighties) prefer not to use mobiles for calls.

Hence a current BT broadband user can keep their landline and pay
extra for the same product.

--
brightside s9

[Nick Finnigan]

On 03/12/2023 10:56, BrightsideS9 wrote:
>
> I have BT broadband and 700 free minutes on landline to UK numbers and
> mobiles
>
> I have just checked my "offers" on BT's web site.e
> I can have various broadband options. Each option offers:
> 1. Broadband only - no home phone
> 2, Broadband and pay as you go home phone - £3 extra / month.
> 3. Broadband and unlimited calls on home phone - £11 extra / month.
>

I get a 'stay on current' option as well.

[Graham J]

There is a further possibility:

Broadband only plus VoIP service.

You can port your existing landline number to the VoIP service. Small
porting charge (typically £20), plus £3 per month, plus calls (typically
1p/minute to landlines). You would need to buy a VoIP telephone (from
about £45).

Note that porting your existing landline number will cancel any
associated broadband service.

Converting your existing contract to broadband-only with the same
supplier will cancel your landline number, but OFCOM now says it is
possible for you to port that cancelled number so long as you do so
within a couple of weeks. So better to plan this in advance and set up
an account with your chosen VoIP service provider and warn them to start
the number import as soon as your old service is cancelled.

Note that VoIP needs a reliable broadband service to carry it. FTTP is
ideal. FTTC is probably OK. ADSL (if that's all you can get) - which
probably means you are in a very rural location - will not be
sufficiently reliable; but one hopes that it will be replaced with FTTP
sometime soon. Of course there are people who will never get
landline-based broadband, let alone FTTP.



--
Graham J

[Mark Carver]

That's very interesting, I get an option to retain the landline number
at my own home (obvs with a DV product) and sticking my mother's address in.

There's an extra thing though, I think her FTTC cabinet is full, because
if I use her neighbouring house (which is empty at present) it comes
back that only ADSL is available (by the quoted max speed) and that a
Digital Voice line is unavailable (because presumably they don't support
that via ADSL) Interesting (and good!) that she won't go the the back of
the FTTC queue if she changes ISP !

[Malcolm Loades]

On 03/12/2023 11:23, Graham J wrote:

> Note that VoIP needs a reliable broadband service to carry it. FTTP is
> ideal. FTTC is probably OK. ADSL (if that's all you can get) - which
> probably means you are in a very rural location - will not be

> sufficiently reliable; ..............
>

You need nothing like the bandwidth implied here. You only need 0.5
Mbps download for a good quality call. Compare that with streaming
video which requires 3-4 Mbps.

I've been using VoIP since 2005 first with ADSL, then VDSL, FTTC and now
FTTP. The call quality with FTTC is no different than when my
connection was by ADSL 18 years ago.

As for reliability, the very few times I've had no VoIP is because the
landline carrying the internet connection was down. Equally landline
calls would not then have been possible.

Malcolm

[notya...@gmail.com]

Or you can run Voipfone's soft phone app', which now works well. Older Samsung and Nokia phones can run internet calling native.

If you have multiple lines then a pro copy of Zoiper or similar will manage that.

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 2 December 2023 at 22:11:37 UTC, Chris wrote:
> Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com> wrote:

SNIP

> No option for retaining landline number here. No full fibre and only VDSL
> options.

Port it out first then - e.g. to Voipfone. Even works for mobiles.

[notya...@gmail.com]

Amusingly a common fault on POTS lines is a disconnection on one leg. The phone neither rings nor can dial out. OTOH the broadband carries on at about one third speed. When BT knocked off my land line this way [yet again after spotting Openreach engineers in the underground chamber outside] I got them to divert the POTS number to my [adjacent] old ISDN MSN number ported to Voipfone ~15 years ago. Loved the irony!

[Graham J]

I didn't mean to imply anything about bandwidth.

My point was about reliability. If the supporting ADSL service is
affected by lightning strikes, electric fences, grotty copper/aluminimum
joints, Christmas tree lights - anything that breaks the connection,
your router will re-synchronise, taking a minute or two to do so. This
break will force the VoIP service to stop, then re-register - taking
perhaps another couple of minutes.

Not what you want on a phone call.

By contrast, all the sources of interference that I listed above - would
only be noticed on an analog call as mildly annoying clicks.

--
Graham J

[Chris]

Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number first?

If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in broadband
service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to start at the same
time as the old one dying is laughable.

[Andy Burns]

If it's a VDSL line, porting out the PSTN number will cease the broadband.

I think you need to transition the VDSL line to SOGEA, which will
release the PSTN number, then within 30 days recover the PSTN number to
the CUPID number of the VoIP provider you wish to port to ...

[Chris]

You might as well be speaking Hungarian...

[Andy Burns]

Chris wrote:

> You might as well be speaking Hungarian...

Then I suggest sit-tight until your provider approaches *you* saying
it's time to migrate ...

[Graham J]

So in English:

SOGEA means Single Order Generic Ethernet Access. It describes a
landline which carries ADSL or VDSL but is not linked to a phone number.

So first, set up an account with your preferred VoIP provider. Ask them
how best to proceed.

They will probably suggest asking your existing VDSL provider to convert
the service to SOGEA. Warn the VoIP provider the date on which this
conversion will take place and tell them your landline phone number, so
that they are prepared to import that number. In the past this was not
possible - any change to SOGEA cancelled the landline number, but since
Easter this year OFCOM has insisted that cancelled landline numbers be
available for transfer to a new service provider for 30 days.

Experience of other people here is that this process still can fail,
particularly if the releasing service provider is an organisation as
incompetent as Vodafone.

So you might simply wait.

At some point in the next 10 years your VDSL will be converted to fibre.
Your existing ISP may then offer an ultimatum:
a) have new FTTP but no landline number
b) have new FTTP with their proprietary "Digital Voice" VoIP service
So make your decision.

If you have a landline that does not support any of VDSL, ADSL or
dial-up then you are unlikely to ever get any sort of digital service.
It probably means you can't get 3G, 4G or 5G mobile either, because of
your geographical location. So talk to BT and ask them what will happen
when all copper landlines are withdrawn and see what they will commit to
for the future.



--
Graham J

[Andy Burns]

Graham J wrote:

> SOGEA means Single Order Generic Ethernet Access.  It describes a
> landline which carries ADSL or VDSL but is not linked to a phone number.

As far as I know, SOGEA only applies to VDSL, there's a separate
product, SOTAP that applies to ADSL.

[Davey]

On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 08:53:40 +0000
Graham J <nob...@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

> At some point in the next 10 years your VDSL will be converted to
> fibre. Your existing ISP may then offer an ultimatum:
> a) have new FTTP but no landline number
> b) have new FTTP with their proprietary "Digital Voice" VoIP service
> So make your decision.

This presumably also applies to those of us still on ADSL?

--
Davey.

[Mike Humphrey]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 18:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number
> first?
>
> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in
> broadband service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to
> start at the same time as the old one dying is laughable.

If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition to
the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the number
out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges for a month
or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.

Mike

[Chris]

Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
automatically? Or isn't a second line quite expensive?

[Chris]

Thanks that helps.

[Andy Burns]

Chris wrote:

> Mike Humphrey wrote:
>>
>> If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
>> addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition to
>> the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the number
>> out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges for a month
>> or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.
>
> Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
> automatically?

No, it's not uncommon to have one for home, another for work.

> Or isn't a second line quite expensive?

Should be same price (like for like) as first line, assuming line plant
is available, it's pretty likely that four wires already come into ypur
house.

[Clive Page]

On 02/12/2023 17:48, Mark Carver wrote:
> Sounds like PlusNet are quoting a silly price, to deter you from taking up the package. Rather like a plumber who's too busy, so quotes way over the odds !
>
> Weird !  Perhaps there's some arcane Ofcomery that says they still have to offer PSTN for renewals, if the punter is already on PSTN on their previous contract !?


I'm also using Plusnet with FTTC and a landline. I renewed a couple of months ago for 2 years with no change of service and only a modest increase in price. They did warn me that POTS was dying out so that at the end of the 2 years I might be forced to use something new-fangled, e.g. FTTP with VOIP if we still need a landline.

--
Clive Page

[Bob Eager]

Not if it's not linked to a phone line. And FTTP isn't.

I ordered FTTP separately and had it installed. When it all worked, I
called my ISP and they swapped routing of my IP addresses to the new
service (from FTTC). It was completely smooth and took less than ten
minutes on the phone.

There was a two day overlap, and that was the only cost incurred; two
days' extra FTTC.

[David Wade]

No, why should it?

Or isn't a second line quite expensive?
>

You are not ordering a second line, you are ordering a second broadband
connection to avoid having anything that could be considered a "line".
So long as its FTTP or FTTC then no "line" is required.

I started with ordering FTTP from ZEN, then I added VOIP from
voipfone.co.uk which gives you a free "voip" number so I could be sure
their service would work with the ZEN router. Finally I ported my
landline number to voipfone at which point my old FTTC ceased as it was
attached to my landline.

Dave

[Chris]

That's encouraging. Thanks.

[Andy Burns]

Chris wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
>
>> There was a two day overlap, and that was the only cost incurred; two
>> days' extra FTTC.
>
> That's encouraging. Thanks.

I'd expect with most ISPs, it'd be an extra month.

[David Wade]

I was with plusnet and I am sure they only charged me for the days used,
but I was out of contract. If you are in-contract such changes may
result in large charges.

Dave

[Graham J]

I guess so ...

--
Graham J

[Graham J]

In the past if Openreach had insufficient plant they would refuse to
accept a new order for a property at which there was already a landline
service. If such an order was accepted a new copper pair could well
have been fairly expensive. A real pain for somebody wanting a second
line perhaps for a business purpose at a domestic address.

But in the context of a new service using FTTP the penalty might be no
more than £15.

For example Zen FTTC SOGEA product: £34 per month

Zen FTTP new service £15 setup fee then £35 per month thereafter.


--
Graham J

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

On 6 Dec 2023 15:56, Graham J wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>> Mike Humphrey <ma...@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 18:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>>> Practical question. What happens to the line if you port the number
>>>> first?
>>>>
>>>> If the line dies, then what's the best approach to limit a cut in
>>>> broadband service? I'm guessing lining up a new BB with no phone to
>>>> start at the same time as the old one dying is laughable.
>>>
>>> If there's nothing else you need to keep from the old service (email
>>> addresses for example), just order a new broadband service, in addition to
>>> the one you currently have. Once it's all up and running, port the number
>>> out from the old one. You'll end up paying two sets of charges for a month
>>> or two, but should avoid any issues with losing service.
>>
>> Doesn't ordering a new service at the same property end the old service
>> automatically? Or isn't a second line quite expensive?
>
> In the past if Openreach had insufficient plant they would refuse to
> accept a new order for a property at which there was already a landline
> service. If such an order was accepted a new copper pair could well
> have been fairly expensive. A real pain for somebody wanting a second
> line perhaps for a business purpose at a domestic address.
>

That has not been my experience.

[Mark Carver]

On 02/12/2023 13:59, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> My contract with PlusNet expires in early January and although they have
> offered to renew it (WITH a phone line) they seem keen for me to
> transfer to a new package with no phone line and hall my current speed.
>

Here's a laugh. I've just logged on to my Plusnet account to check
something.

There was an offer waiting for me.

My present deal, of '66Mb' fibre (FTTC plus Landline) expires in October
next year. I'm paying 26.99/m (with a CPI uplift coming in April of course).

However, I can jump right now to a new 24 mth contract for 27.99/m, but
with no phone line (and a CPI uplift, infact two !)

Nuts !

[Tweed]

They’ve been taking lessons from Virgin Media it seems.

[Woody]

No, unlikely. Most ISPs uplifted by CPI_3.9% which last time round was
about 14.1% total.
VM uplifted by RPI+3.9% so we paid 16.7%!!