BT Openworld On An Existing LAN
Paul Barbour
BackOffice Small Business Server network (Microsoft Windows NT Server 4.0
plus lots of additional packages all bundled together) and have five
computers running on that network using Ethernet connections. Our server
runs DHCP, etc. and we currently access the Internet via an ISDN Router and
BT Highway.
We've just subscribed to the Business / Multi-User version of BT Openworld.
From looking on the Internet, it's clear that BT are providing little or no
assistance to anyone using the Multi-User version of BT Openworld if they
have more than one computer !!!
We're about to have ADSL installed tomorrow and I can imagine the kind of
problems I'm going to see. I therefore thought I'd try to summarise what I
see as the way to approach this situation and let others comment as
appropriate. From my side, I might get some advice on what to avoid. For
other people, this may save them some heartache !
To test BT Openworld, I've pulled out the Ethernet cable to our existing
LAN on a test computer, stopped it trying to log in to our server and
installed the BT Openworld software. Once ADSL is installed, I'll then use
this machine to test the connection and make sure the equipment is working
OK. This provides me the one computer I need to get technical support from
BT - any more than this and they'll refuse to support me.
If this works OK, I've then got to get the service networked. If I was
doing peer to peer networking, that's all I would need to do. However, I
want to do proper Client/Server networking. The problem is that the ADSL
Router runs DHCP, as does my server. The Microsoft recommendation is that
the server runs DHCP and I therefore can't simply connect the ADSL Router
into my existing network. I appear to therefore have two choices - install
a second NIC in each computer wishing to access BT Openworld or install two
NICs in my server and configure this accordingly.
I don't intend to put a second NIC in each computer. However I believe if I
wanted to choose this option I'd leave the existing NIC connecting into our
current hub which would use DHCP on the server to obtain an IP address. I'd
then connect the second NIC in each machine into the ADSL Router and install
BT Openworld on each machine, setting the software to use the second NIC
for the connection. I presume this would work ?
In my case, I need to install a second NIC in the server and follow the
instructions at
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q216/2/38.ASP on
configuring it. I'm not quite sure which IP address I'd set in point 3d.
However, the default gateway and DNS server would be set to
192.168.254.254. I should then be able to gain network access to BT
Openworld through the Microsoft Proxy Server.
Any comments on this would be welcome !
Regards,
Paul.
John P
news:iQBq5.451$pD2....@news.dircon.co.uk...
> I don't intend to put a second NIC in each computer. However I believe if
I
> wanted to choose this option I'd leave the existing NIC connecting into
our
> current hub which would use DHCP on the server to obtain an IP address.
I'd
> then connect the second NIC in each machine into the ADSL Router and
install
> BT Openworld on each machine, setting the software to use the second NIC
> for the connection. I presume this would work ?
Probably, but you /really/ don't want to do this!! That would be /very/
messy..
> In my case, I need to install a second NIC in the server and follow the
> instructions at
> http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q216/2/38.ASP on
> configuring it. I'm not quite sure which IP address I'd set in point 3d.
> However, the default gateway and DNS server would be set to
> 192.168.254.254. I should then be able to gain network access to BT
> Openworld through the Microsoft Proxy Server.
> Any comments on this would be welcome !
Some ramblings as I'm in a similar situation, here's what I've found out:
You will have two sets of networks, one internal (as you have currently) and
the other between your ADSL router and your server. Diagram:
INTERNET ---- (ADSL Router) ----------- (WinNT server) ---(hub)--(machines
1-5)
EXT NET
INTERNAL NET
For this, you will need to install another NIC in your server and assign it
to take its address via DHCP from the ADSL router, whilst providing a DHCP
service on the internal NIC - remember each NIC can have its own IP address.
If it can't take its address via DHCP, then I'm not really sure!
Another problem you may have is: I don't think the WinNT box as standard can
provide IP Masquerading (to allow each machine on your network to use your
'public' IP address) - although i'm sure there is software available that
will do this (Wingate?). I think Windows 2000 has it built in.
To be honest my gut feeling about the above method is it's a bad idea, since
a WinNT server using Proxy server is not the most secure in the world, and
so should be protected by a dedicated firewall between the router and your
PC - you really don't want your server hacked!
The alternative would be to install a dedicated PC that could provide
masquerading as well as much improved firewalling facilities. This PC could
be plugged straight into the hub, thus avoiding the need for another NIC in
the server and also bypassing any DHCP problems. This would then be set as
the default gateway for each PC. (including the server). Linux would be a
good choice for this, especially something like the linux-router project
(www.linuxrouter.org) - very secure. And free, of course!
> Regards,
> Paul.
Good Luck
John
(who's still waiting for ADSL!)
Andrew
small business server.
You can use static IP's for BT side of the network, which may be
better for setting up the proxy etc, simply specify an IP address in
the range 192.168.254.2xx
Andrew
Duncan Sibbald
I'll start posting through the newsgroup as I am certain we aren't the only
people going to run into this problem.
I have now checked the newsgroup and don't feel very much further forward.
Basically, my whole problem has stemmed from our SMTP mail to our Exchange
Server. For that, our ISP (Concentric) require a static IP address to which
they can forward the mail. If the router IP address you mention below is
correct, presumably they could forward it to that. We too use a gateway at
10.0.0.1 and we actually use fixed IP addresses through LMHOSTS, 10.0.0.3,
10.0.0.4 etc but we would probably have to revert to DHCP and using Proxy.
As it stand, BT have refused to offer any help at all except to say that the
only way round this problem is to take them on as our ISP at £80 per month.
Concentric have said that they will sort the whole problem out if we take
ADSL off them. However, they would charge us £260 for the BT installation,
even though BT have already done it. BT definitely led me to believe that
taking on their business multi-user package would not raise these problems.
Best regards,
Duncan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Barbour" <pbar...@symbiosis.uk.com>
To: <duncan...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: BT and ADSL on a network
> Duncan
>
> On 8am Tuesday morning, we get out ADSL line installed. Like you, we're
> running SBS 4.5. Did you manage to get your problems solved ? I've seen
> other posts on uk.telecom.broadband reporting similar problems to yours.
A
> message there implied the IP address of the router was 192.168.254.254 and
> setting that up both the gateway and DNS server solved the problems ?
>
> Regards,
> Paul Barbour.
>
> Duncan Sibbald <duncan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<uk7nXY2CAHA.82@cppssbbsa04>...
> > We have just had the 'multi user' OpenWorld ADSL package installed from
> BT.
> > They basically tested the line, left the router and left
> >
> > We have a 5 user network with an SBS server and a Cisco 801 router which
> we
> > bought from our ISP (Concentric). We use a gateway on the router for
each
> > desktop to access the internet and we use Exchange Server 5.5 for our
mail
> > and we use an ISDN line which we wanted to convert to ADSL.
> >
> > I have now phoned BT Technical Support who say that they offer no
> technical
> > support on a network. Originally, the sales desk told me I just take the
> > ISDN connection to the router out of the back of the router and plug it
> into
> > the ADSL connection. Now Technical Support tell me that is not true.
> They
> > told me that it is possible to connect to a server with SBS but he
> wouldn't
> > tell me how because it wasn't within his job description (he did give me
a
> > clue - they use DHCP on their servers).
> >
> > My questions are has anyone else encountered this problem and is there a
> > solution ?
> >
> > AHGR
> >
> > Duncan
> >
> >
> >
>
"Paul Barbour" <pbar...@symbiosis.uk.com> wrote in message
news:iQBq5.451$pD2....@news.dircon.co.uk...
install
> a second NIC in each computer wishing to access BT Openworld or install
two
> NICs in my server and configure this accordingly.
>
> I don't intend to put a second NIC in each computer. However I believe if
I
> wanted to choose this option I'd leave the existing NIC connecting into
our
> current hub which would use DHCP on the server to obtain an IP address.
I'd
> then connect the second NIC in each machine into the ADSL Router and
install
> BT Openworld on each machine, setting the software to use the second NIC
> for the connection. I presume this would work ?
>
> In my case, I need to install a second NIC in the server and follow the
> instructions at
> http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q216/2/38.ASP on
> configuring it. I'm not quite sure which IP address I'd set in point 3d.
> However, the default gateway and DNS server would be set to
> 192.168.254.254. I should then be able to gain network access to BT
> Openworld through the Microsoft Proxy Server.
>
> Any comments on this would be welcome !
>
> Regards,
> Paul.
>
>
dan gibbs
{SNiP}
Do you need to use DCHP on the internal network?
if not you can turn on ip packet forwarding...
Though I've not used this option, I assume it' sthe same as linux
masquerading..
Otherwise (Well I'd proabbly) get hold of a old pc and put linux on it
and run it as a masqerading firewall, which is farly easy to setup..
As this will provide you with added security.
Or (as bt dodesn't support it) get a second box and put nt with a
firewall on it like zonealarm which is suppoderly good and is cheep..
Paul Barbour
To use SMTP mail, you will need a fixed IP address. BT Openworld at
present uses NAT and doesn't provide a fixed public IP address. Although
there are plans to do so in the future, I'd interpret that as sometime next
year...maybe !
The router does have an internal IP addess of 192.168.254.254 as far as I
can tell. However, using NAT that gets translated into a dynamic IP
address as far as SMTP mail is concerned and so is of no use to you.
We run Microsoft BackOffice Small Business Server 4.5 rather than pure
Windows NT Server 4.0 / Microsoft Exchange Server 5.5. It's the same basic
software except it's bundled together at a much reduced price. With
Microsoft BackOffice Small Business Server 4.5, Microsoft provide a free
POP3 connector. We therefore use SMTP for outgoing mail (which doesn't
require a fixed IP address) and POP3 for incoming mail. We've used that
scenario with an ISDN Router using NAT for over a year now without a
problem. This should translate OK to BT Openworld - if only I can get it
networked properly.
I'm 80% of the way through figuring out how to put BT Openworld on our
network (via a second NIC in our server) whilst retailing our network DHCP
server. Just a little more research to do...
In terms of the situation with BT, your best bet is to make a fuss - write
them a formal letter and see how you got on. BT have sold Openworld on the
basis that it can be used with "Windows NT" but never stated they meant "NT
Workstation" and not "NT Server". They are selling a "Business /
Multi-User" service but refuse to provide support to anyone trying to
connect more than one computer to the service. I'd say they haven't got a
leg to stand on if you wanted to tell them to take it back ! It'll take a
little pushing but they should concede.
Regards,
Paul.
Duncan Sibbald <duncan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8og6r4$18b$1...@gxsn.com...
Paul Barbour
easier to configure new users.
I believe through other newsgroups that I can get around most of the
problems by using a second NIC installed in the server. The main thing I'm
not sure of is how the BT Openworld authentication process will work if I
don't have the BT Openworld software installed. If I call up
192.168.254.254, do I get the "login" screen then or is there some other
configuration options to set ? What does the BT Openworld "connect.exe"
program do ?
Regards,
Paul.
dan gibbs <nattyyoukn...@dread.eu.org> wrote in message
news:39abb257....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
Adrian Kennard
>
> I don't "need" to use DHCP on my internal network. However, it's obviously
> easier to configure new users.
>
> I believe through other newsgroups that I can get around most of the
> problems by using a second NIC installed in the server. The main thing I'm
> not sure of is how the BT Openworld authentication process will work if I
> don't have the BT Openworld software installed. If I call up
> 192.168.254.254, do I get the "login" screen then or is there some other
> configuration options to set ? What does the BT Openworld "connect.exe"
> program do ?
BT claim you need a java enabled browser, but this is twaddle.
You get a login screen, a very simple one.
I have used a Nokia 9110, lynx, IE4, and Netscape to access
this all with no problem.
--
_ Andrews & Arnold Ltd, 0118 376 0000 http://aa.nu/
(_) _| _ . _ _ Professional Voice and Data Systems for Business.
( )(_|( |(_|| ) Gold Certified Alchemists, ADSL service providers
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ **** Non-trial ADSL Internet available NOW! *****
dan gibbs
use blackice (http://www.networkice.com/) but ppl have recomended
zonealert (?) or something similer, Zdnet did a peace on installing
it..
On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:37:57 +0100, "Paul Barbour"
<pbar...@symbiosis.uk.com> wrote:
>I don't "need" to use DHCP on my internal network. However, it's obviously
>easier to configure new users.
>
>I believe through other newsgroups that I can get around most of the
>problems by using a second NIC installed in the server. The main thing I'm
>not sure of is how the BT Openworld authentication process will work if I
>don't have the BT Openworld software installed. If I call up
>192.168.254.254, do I get the "login" screen then or is there some other
>configuration options to set ? What does the BT Openworld "connect.exe"
>program do ?
>
Paul Barbour
connect and then PING it, it's fine. I presume what's happening is that
the "connect.exe" program messes around with the gateway settings on my
TCP/IP and sets up 192.168.254.254 as a gateway and DNS. Is this correct ?
Regards,
Paul.
Adrian Kennard
<adrian.kennard@by-sending-this-email-i-agree-to-pay-a-kennard-50-ukpounds.c
o.uk> wrote in message
news:39ABDD14.99E53D82@by-sending-this-email-i-agree-to-pay-a-kennard-50-ukp
ounds.co.uk...
Adrian Kennard
If you DHCP you get a 192.168.254.x address netmask 255.255.255.0.
As long as you are on the same subnet you should be able to
access 192.168.254.254 from a web browser. You dont have to DHCP
if you set the IP and mask manually.
Obviously to then use it you want 192.168.254.254 as gateway and
DNS server (it forwards), but DHCP normally does this for you too.
noog...@cwcom.net
<pbar...@symbiosis.uk.com> wrote:
>If I disconnect and PING 192.168.254.254, it returns no reply. If I
>connect and then PING it, it's fine. I presume what's happening is that
>the "connect.exe" program messes around with the gateway settings on my
>TCP/IP and sets up 192.168.254.254 as a gateway and DNS. Is this correct ?
You might want to nip down to your local bookshop and get a copy of
'each yourself SBS in 21 days' (Sams, ISBN 0-672-31513-0) written by
a man who does this kind of thing for a living. There's quite a lot
about connecting to the net via broadband connections, setting up
Proxy Server etc.
Dave Emberton
> present uses NAT and doesn't provide a fixed public IP address. Although
> there are plans to do so in the future, I'd interpret that as sometime
next
> year...maybe !
Lots of other ISP's (including concentric) will give you and ADSL service
with a static IP, suitable for SMTP mail.If I was doing this (and I may well
be soon), this is the option I'd choose. This would give you an ADSL service
that's just like a leased line, so you can do SMTP mail and even enable
things like remote web access to e-mail. I don't think there's any extra
charge for it either - so you may as well ditch NAT, it's just going to
cause grief, especially as you already have Proxy 2.
> I'm 80% of the way through figuring out how to put BT Openworld on our
> network (via a second NIC in our server) whilst retailing our network DHCP
> server. Just a little more research to do...
I remember there being problems SBS if there was another DHCP Server on
either of it's networks. I can't remember exactly how it was resolved, but I
suggest you ask over at microsoft.public.backoffice.smallbiz.
Dave
Paul Barbour
> either of it's networks. I can't remember exactly how it was resolved, but
I
> suggest you ask over at microsoft.public.backoffice.smallbiz.
As you say, if you take a look at microsoft.public.backoffice.smallbiz
there is an article be Jeff Middleton that explains how to overcome this.
The SBS DHCP client shuts down if it sees another DHCP server on the
network. However, there is a documented Microsoft workaround to the
problem.
Regards,
Paul.