Who decides the FTTP installation route, Openreach or customer?

[newman]

When the time comes for an FTTP installation, will the route into the
premises be easiest for Openreach, or will the customer have any input
as to their prefered route?

Regards

[Woody]

Guess....................

[David]

FTTP was installed here last December. I considered the route they
(OR)had been considering to be less than optimal for me and suggested a
slightly longer route that would take the 'inlet' directly to the study
rather than me have to bother with internal patch cables.

The OR guys on site were happy to do it for me.

A friendly approach with tea/coffee and a chat explaing my reasons worked
for me - but it probably depends on the OR installers and how much
pressure they are under.

[tim...]

"David" <no...@this.com> wrote in message news:sgib1c$kin$1...@dont-email.me...

> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 16:11:19 +0100, newman wrote:
>
>> When the time comes for an FTTP installation, will the route into the
>> premises be easiest for Openreach, or will the customer have any input
>> as to their prefered route?
>>
>> Regards
>
> FTTP was installed here last December. I considered the route they
> (OR)had been considering to be less than optimal for me and suggested a
> slightly longer route that would take the 'inlet' directly to the study
> rather than me have to bother with internal patch cables.

Oh I'm sure that a few extra feet on the outside of the wall is not going to
be a problem

The issue that we would have here is that, as block of flats, all of the
cables currently run internally and the point of entrance of the telephone
cable is currently the individual hallway, off the common hallway, and that
is where my phone and router (and appropriate power sockets) are situated.

But that has no outside wall and all of the rooms that do have an outside
wall is a bloody inconvenient place to put a telephone and router.

> The OR guys on site were happy to do it for me.
>
> A friendly approach with tea/coffee and a chat explaing my reasons worked
> for me - but it probably depends on the OR installers and how much
> pressure they are under.

surely you get to see and discuss the plans before someone turns up on site
to do the job. Sticking cables in your garden, on your wall, and then
drilling a hole through your wall, requires you to have signed a way leave
agreement. they can't just come and put them in without that.

[David]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 13:57:10 +0100, tim... wrote:

> "David" <no...@this.com> wrote in message
> news:sgib1c$kin$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 16:11:19 +0100, newman wrote:
>>
>>> When the time comes for an FTTP installation, will the route into the
>>> premises be easiest for Openreach, or will the customer have any input
>>> as to their prefered route?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>
>> FTTP was installed here last December. I considered the route they
>> (OR)had been considering to be less than optimal for me and suggested a
>> slightly longer route that would take the 'inlet' directly to the study
>> rather than me have to bother with internal patch cables.
>
> Oh I'm sure that a few extra feet on the outside of the wall is not
> going to be a problem

Oh I'm so glad you agree.

>
> The issue that we would have here is that, as block of flats, all of the
> cables currently run internally and the point of entrance of the
> telephone cable is currently the individual hallway, off the common
> hallway, and that is where my phone and router (and appropriate power
> sockets) are situated.
>
> But that has no outside wall and all of the rooms that do have an
> outside wall is a bloody inconvenient place to put a telephone and
> router.
>
>> The OR guys on site were happy to do it for me.
>>
>> A friendly approach with tea/coffee and a chat explaing my reasons
>> worked for me - but it probably depends on the OR installers and how
>> much pressure they are under.
>
> surely you get to see and discuss the plans before someone turns up on
> site to do the job.

I recommend you read just how BT/OR do a new FTTP installation.

> Sticking cables in your garden, on your wall, and
> then drilling a hole through your wall, requires you to have signed a
> way leave agreement. they can't just come and put them in without that.

There is no BT/OR wayleave here - the cables are on existing electicity
poles which have wayleaves. The ordering of the installation gives BT/OR
the authority they need to drill holes etc. They will *usually* follow
the route of the existing phone line but that went to the front of the
property and I wanted the new to go to the rear of the property - it was
rather more than a 'few extra feet' - perhaps I misled you by saying
'slightly longer'.

Its worth pointing out also that if a supply (Fibre, cable, copper or
electricity) serves only your property no wayleave is required. Wayleaves
only apply if something passes over your ownership to a third party.

[Theo]

tim... <timsn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> surely you get to see and discuss the plans before someone turns up on site
> to do the job. Sticking cables in your garden, on your wall, and then
> drilling a hole through your wall, requires you to have signed a way leave
> agreement. they can't just come and put them in without that.

I would expect that if they're wiring up a whole street somebody will go
house to house doing the 'design', and making a note of where contractors
will be required for digging, drilling etc.

But if they're doing a single install, based on a fibre that already passes
your property, the design might be done by the person who does the install
(assuming it doesn't need any extra trades) - for example, they might take a
dropwire from a pole, go up a ladder to attach an anchor to your wall, drill
a hole and run the cable inside. The 'design' is five minutes standing
outside looking at the site before they get the ladder out. If the cable is
buried, the design would be done by the trenching crew deciding how to run
the cable through your front garden - shortly followed by actually digging
the trench.

In both cases you probably have a certain degree of leeway, based on how
much extra work changes would generate.

So I think the moral of the story is to sketch out the design work in
advance, based on some assumptions about where the cable is going to come,
etc, and do some preparation to make it easy for them. In your case, if you
want the cables to run internally, maybe think about how to get a conduit
run from street level to each flat, and get the necessary permissions from
residents and do preparatory works in advance.

If your chosen solution is the least-work option, they're more likely to
choose it.

I like the B4RN approach. They don't dig up your front garden - they will
run a cable in a conduit you've already laid, and where you lay it is up to
you. You either DIY or pay someone to lay it.

Theo

[newman]

On 29/08/2021 16:11, newman wrote:

The reason I have concerns is that the existing copper cable comes down
a pole at the rear of the house and is buried under a 3 tier garden with
extensive artificial grass and paving.

I assume the easiest way for Openreach will be overhead from the pole,
which is at a much lower level than the house and thus would sag above
the rear patio.

However, there is an Openreach manhole on the pavement at the front of
the house which would give a much easier route but I believe this is
connected to a different cabinet.

Would Openreach consider this alternate route when the time comes?

Regards

[tim...]

"David" <no...@this.com> wrote in message news:sgim5l$tsj$1...@dont-email.me...

Oh I'm misunderstanding

I thought you were talking about a *compulsory* upgrade of your line

> They will *usually* follow
> the route of the existing phone line but that went to the front of the
> property and I wanted the new to go to the rear of the property - it was
> rather more than a 'few extra feet' - perhaps I misled you by saying
> 'slightly longer'.

There are no poles here

the wires enter the property underground somewhere.

[Andy Burns]

newman wrote:

> Would Openreach consider this alternate route when the time comes?

They'll probably accommodate small changes that don't cost them much
extra time/materials, if you insist beyond that, they might apply
"excess construction" charges.

<https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/services/product-services/excess-construction-charges(ECC)>

[Theo]

newman <new...@despammed.com> wrote:
> However, there is an Openreach manhole on the pavement at the front of
> the house which would give a much easier route but I believe this is
> connected to a different cabinet.
>
> Would Openreach consider this alternate route when the time comes?

Cabinets will cease to exist when FTTP replaces copper. So it's possible
that the cable could be routed through that set of ducts, rather than the
duct at the bottom of the garden. It will all depend on how Openreach
design their network in your particular area. I'd guess they might prefer
an underground route given less susceptibility to high winds etc.

I would imagine that if fibre is being run through both ducts they will pick
the duct which is least work for them to do, when the time comes.

Theo

[Tweed]

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> newman <new...@despammed.com> wrote:
>> However, there is an Openreach manhole on the pavement at the front of
>> the house which would give a much easier route but I believe this is
>> connected to a different cabinet.
>>
>> Would Openreach consider this alternate route when the time comes?
>
> Cabinets will cease to exist when FTTP replaces copper.

That’s not entirely true. FTTP is going into a new build estate near me. It
just that the cabinets are underground. They remove the lid and pull, and
up comes a whole lot of fibre distribution stuff on a frame like structure.

[Vir Campestris]

It also depends on what you mean by a cabinet.

Our fibre is all overhead, and there's a junction box about a metre high
and as fat as the pole it is strapped onto opposite our house.

OR were happy to run my fibre into the under stairs cupboard, which is
near where the existing copper ran. They looked dubious though...

"Where would you like the modem?"
"In the under stairs cupboard"

<fx mouth opens>

"... where there is a double power point waiting for it".

Andy

[Peter Johnson]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 13:57:10 +0100, "tim..." <timsn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>surely you get to see and discuss the plans before someone turns up on site
>to do the job. Sticking cables in your garden, on your wall, and then
>drilling a hole through your wall, requires you to have signed a way leave
>agreement. they can't just come and put them in without that.

What plans? The BT/OR person has no idea where the cable will be
routed untill he turns up to do the job. (I'm sure this point has been
covered in the other replies but thought I'd chip in my five
pennorth.)

[Andy Burns]

tim... wrote:

> Sticking cables in your garden, on your wall, and then drilling a hole
> through your wall, requires you to have signed a way leave agreement.

It requires a wayleave if they want to put cables through your garden to
supply someone else's house, but not to supply your house ...

[newman]

On 29/08/2021 16:11, newman wrote:

If Openreach insist on the overhead route, can a neighbour object to the
cable passing above their garden?

[David]

Yes. But statutory powers are held by communications companies so it
would merely delay rather than stop a wayleave.

[Bob Eager]

On Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:28:19 +0100, newman wrote:

I asked for a phone line to be routed from a pole behind my house, rather
than the one in front (fed by a MUCH nearer cabinet, for VDSL).

They said they couldn't do it unlwess I got the permission of the people
next door, as it would cross the corner of their garden.

It took me a while to get the required permission (another story). Then
OR said no, anyway.

[Roderick Stewart]

Would the statutory rights only allow a cable to pass over your
property (presumably with a height limit) or would they also allow
access to your property to install it?

If the latter, would they only be allowed access while you were at
home, and subject to arrangement in advance, or if not, under what
circumstances would they be allowed to force access? I ask this
because the only access to the back gardens of a number of houses near
me, including my own, would be through the houses. There must be lots
of situations like this where routing a cable over somebody's garden
would require access through the house, unless Openreach engineers are
trained in archery.

Rod.

[David]

I would expect that any Wayleave/Easement would give not only rights to
'lay' but would also provide that access be given upon reasonable
notice. Rights of entry if access is denied will be covered somewhere
but I don't have the time to check that out fully.

If access is given to one garden would it be possible to get to other
gardens over fences/walls? Just a hypothesis on my part. Generally I
would expect that most householders would benefit in some way from the
wayleave/easement over other properties and so be accommodating.