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Odd problem: landline phone off but broadband staggering on
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Clive Page
Sep 13, 2021, 1:44:35 PM9/13/21
to
Late on Friday night our broadband connection (FTTC) stopped with the router/modem showing orange where it is normally blue for normal. I immediately checked the phone - no dial tone. To my surprise the broadband came back a few minutes later, though the download speed was less than half the 30 Mb/s we normally get.
But the landline phone stayed dead. Obviously I did the usual checks: tried another handset, plugged it into the socket on the master socket, etc. And tried the Plusnet "phone checking service" but that did not find anything wrong. If one calls the landline one hears ringtone, but the ringing current doesn't reach the landline phone itself. Though once when testing this I heard a faint beeping noise from the landline phone, suggesting that a tiny bit of ring voltage was reaching it.
One day last week I noticed a BT/OpenReach technician dabbling in hatch in the ground just in front of our house - we had nothing wrong at that point, but presumably someone else living nearby reported a problem.
My guess is that the wires to our house were disturbed and left us with has a bad connection. But I'm rather surprised that the phone is completely dead while the broadband service is working, albeit at lower speed. Anyone else experienced this?
We reported this to our phone supplier, Plusnet, the following day, but the soonest that they can get OpenReach to come and investigate is Wednesday. I suppose that is par for the course.
--
Clive Page
But the landline phone stayed dead. Obviously I did the usual checks: tried another handset, plugged it into the socket on the master socket, etc. And tried the Plusnet "phone checking service" but that did not find anything wrong. If one calls the landline one hears ringtone, but the ringing current doesn't reach the landline phone itself. Though once when testing this I heard a faint beeping noise from the landline phone, suggesting that a tiny bit of ring voltage was reaching it.
One day last week I noticed a BT/OpenReach technician dabbling in hatch in the ground just in front of our house - we had nothing wrong at that point, but presumably someone else living nearby reported a problem.
My guess is that the wires to our house were disturbed and left us with has a bad connection. But I'm rather surprised that the phone is completely dead while the broadband service is working, albeit at lower speed. Anyone else experienced this?
We reported this to our phone supplier, Plusnet, the following day, but the soonest that they can get OpenReach to come and investigate is Wednesday. I suppose that is par for the course.
--
Clive Page
Tim+
Sep 13, 2021, 1:49:51 PM9/13/21
to
disables voice calls can still permit broadband of variable speed.
Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Mark Carver
Sep 13, 2021, 1:49:57 PM9/13/21
to
On 13/09/2021 18:44, Clive Page wrote:
>
> My guess is that the wires to our house were disturbed and left us
> with has a bad connection. But I'm rather surprised that the phone is
> completely dead while the broadband service is working, albeit at
> lower speed. Anyone else experienced this?
Very common, and not surprising. The ADSL/VDSL signal is RF, so will not
>
> My guess is that the wires to our house were disturbed and left us
> with has a bad connection. But I'm rather surprised that the phone is
> completely dead while the broadband service is working, albeit at
> lower speed. Anyone else experienced this?
see some breaks in the line that DC or AF frequencies would see.
In fact someone told me the main bulk of an xDSL signal travels just on
the 'B' leg of the twisted pair anyway ?
NY
Sep 13, 2021, 3:56:00 PM9/13/21
to
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:iq9ha3...@mid.individual.net...
If the xDSL signal mainly travels on one leg, doesn't that mean that the
only way you'd get a circuit would be via a mains earth - and wall-warts for
routers don't usually/ever have an earth connection... unless the signal
ground is connected to mains neutral through the wall wart.
I had a total loss of phone signal at a time when ADSL still worked (it went
from very slow to even slower!) and that turned out to be a complete break
in one or other of the legs somewhere between our house and the exchange.
But it took three days and two engineers to work out where that "somewhere"
was :-(
news:iq9ha3...@mid.individual.net...
only way you'd get a circuit would be via a mains earth - and wall-warts for
routers don't usually/ever have an earth connection... unless the signal
ground is connected to mains neutral through the wall wart.
I had a total loss of phone signal at a time when ADSL still worked (it went
from very slow to even slower!) and that turned out to be a complete break
in one or other of the legs somewhere between our house and the exchange.
But it took three days and two engineers to work out where that "somewhere"
was :-(
Vir Campestris
Sep 13, 2021, 4:09:30 PM9/13/21
to
On 13/09/2021 20:56, NY wrote:
> If the xDSL signal mainly travels on one leg, doesn't that mean that the
> only way you'd get a circuit would be via a mains earth - and wall-warts
> for routers don't usually/ever have an earth connection... unless the
> signal ground is connected to mains neutral through the wall wart.
<snip>
> If the xDSL signal mainly travels on one leg, doesn't that mean that the
> only way you'd get a circuit would be via a mains earth - and wall-warts
> for routers don't usually/ever have an earth connection... unless the
> signal ground is connected to mains neutral through the wall wart.
You don't _need_ a circuit at these frequencies. In fact if you look at
old school Ethernet it was a 10Mb/s signal down the centre of a coax,
with the outer acting merely as a shield.
Ethernet was vary careful to always send as much positive voltage as
negative so there was no overall current flow. I suppose in theory the
"ground" at the ends was going in the opposite direction to the signal -
but not enough to measure.
'phones use twisted pair, and it works better if you send the signal
down both legs - apart from anything else it cuts down both transmitted
and received interference. But losing one shouldn't kill it completely.
Andy
Theo
Sep 13, 2021, 4:33:43 PM9/13/21
to
Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> In fact someone told me the main bulk of an xDSL signal travels just on
> the 'B' leg of the twisted pair anyway ?
It is traditional to cite this:
> In fact someone told me the main bulk of an xDSL signal travels just on
> the 'B' leg of the twisted pair anyway ?
https://www.revk.uk/2017/12/its-official-adsl-works-over-wet-string.html
NY
Sep 13, 2021, 4:49:19 PM9/13/21
to
"Theo" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:Reh*O1...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
You know that there is something wrong with your phone line when an
apparently intact copper connection to the exchange can only manage 1 Mbps
but wet string (over a *much* shorter distance, admittedly) can manage 3.5
Mbps. ;-)
news:Reh*O1...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
apparently intact copper connection to the exchange can only manage 1 Mbps
but wet string (over a *much* shorter distance, admittedly) can manage 3.5
Mbps. ;-)
Bob Eager
Sep 13, 2021, 5:22:14 PM9/13/21
to
On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:56:09 +0100, NY wrote:
> If the xDSL signal mainly travels on one leg, doesn't that mean that the
> only way you'd get a circuit would be via a mains earth - and wall-warts
> for routers don't usually/ever have an earth connection... unless the
> signal ground is connected to mains neutral through the wall wart.
Think of it as a radio signal running down a single wire rather than
> If the xDSL signal mainly travels on one leg, doesn't that mean that the
> only way you'd get a circuit would be via a mains earth - and wall-warts
> for routers don't usually/ever have an earth connection... unless the
> signal ground is connected to mains neutral through the wall wart.
through the air.
Pete Forman
Sep 13, 2021, 6:07:16 PM9/13/21
to
spending several days rewiring the local PCP. My landline cut out in the
middle of a call while the VDSL survived. I had a quick chat with him
and left him with my phone number. He said that I should raise a line
fault with Plusnet if the problem persisted but it was fixed within a
few minutes.
--
Pete Forman
https://payg.pythonanywhere.com
Ian Jackson
Sep 14, 2021, 3:49:22 AM9/14/21
to
In message <Reh*O1...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
When a phone line goes 'one-legged', it's the ultimate unbalance. The
xDSL RF radiation is absolutely horrendous - especially if the line is
feeding a router nearby, and it's transmitting the upstream signal(s) at
maximum level in attempt to be heard. If you're lucky, it eventually
gives up, and waits for a nice Openreach person to come and fix the
line.
--
Ian
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
xDSL RF radiation is absolutely horrendous - especially if the line is
feeding a router nearby, and it's transmitting the upstream signal(s) at
maximum level in attempt to be heard. If you're lucky, it eventually
gives up, and waits for a nice Openreach person to come and fix the
line.
--
Ian
Clive Page
Sep 14, 2021, 4:58:47 AM9/14/21
to
Fortunately it's wet here today so getting a bit of wet string will be no problem. What I need now is a pair of cocoa tins to restore voice service...
--
Clive Page
Jim Jackson
Sep 14, 2021, 5:30:55 PM9/14/21
to
On 2021-09-13, Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 13/09/2021 20:56, NY wrote:
>> If the xDSL signal mainly travels on one leg, doesn't that mean that the
>> only way you'd get a circuit would be via a mains earth - and wall-warts
>> for routers don't usually/ever have an earth connection... unless the
>> signal ground is connected to mains neutral through the wall wart.
>
><snip>
>
> You don't _need_ a circuit at these frequencies. In fact if you look at
> old school Ethernet it was a 10Mb/s signal down the centre of a coax,
> with the outer acting merely as a shield.
You do need a circuit - just that dodgy connections provide less
> On 13/09/2021 20:56, NY wrote:
>> If the xDSL signal mainly travels on one leg, doesn't that mean that the
>> only way you'd get a circuit would be via a mains earth - and wall-warts
>> for routers don't usually/ever have an earth connection... unless the
>> signal ground is connected to mains neutral through the wall wart.
>
><snip>
>
> You don't _need_ a circuit at these frequencies. In fact if you look at
> old school Ethernet it was a 10Mb/s signal down the centre of a coax,
> with the outer acting merely as a shield.
impedance to RF than to DC and AF. The dodgy conenction probably just
appears as a capacitor/resistor combination to the signal.
> Ethernet was vary careful to always send as much positive voltage as
> negative so there was no overall current flow. I suppose in theory the
> "ground" at the ends was going in the opposite direction to the signal -
> but not enough to measure.
Roderick Stewart
Sep 15, 2021, 1:26:23 AM9/15/21
to
significant capacitance between them if they're close together, as
hundreds of them will be in a street cabinet or junction box or at the
exchange. The impedance of a capacitor is inversely related to
frequency (theoretically approaching zero as the frequency approaches
infinity) so that it's possible to have an impedance much higher than
any electrical components at audio frequencies, but a lower impedance
at the much higher frequencies used for ADSL or VDSL. Thus, it can
block audio (and ringtone) but allow the RF signal to pass.
Rod.
Vir Campestris
Sep 16, 2021, 4:29:58 PM9/16/21
to
I think it needs to have current going around it. The root of the word
is after all the same as circle...
With these kind of things it just goes backwards and forwards.
Andy
notya...@gmail.com
Sep 17, 2021, 9:43:46 AM9/17/21
to
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 18:44:35 UTC+1, Clive Page wrote:
> Late on Friday night our broadband connection (FTTC) stopped with the router/modem showing orange where it is normally blue for normal. I immediately checked the phone - no dial tone. To my surprise the broadband came back a few minutes later, though the download speed was less than half the 30 Mb/s we normally get.
>
> But the landline phone stayed dead. Obviously I did the usual checks: tried another handset, plugged it into the socket on the master socket, etc. And tried the Plusnet "phone checking service" but that did not find anything wrong. If one calls the landline one hears ringtone, but the ringing current doesn't reach the landline phone itself. Though once when testing this I heard a faint beeping noise from the landline phone, suggesting that a tiny bit of ring voltage was reaching it.
Yes very common - line OK to cabinet where the ADSL is injected - POTS line cabinet to exchange broken.
> Late on Friday night our broadband connection (FTTC) stopped with the router/modem showing orange where it is normally blue for normal. I immediately checked the phone - no dial tone. To my surprise the broadband came back a few minutes later, though the download speed was less than half the 30 Mb/s we normally get.
>
> But the landline phone stayed dead. Obviously I did the usual checks: tried another handset, plugged it into the socket on the master socket, etc. And tried the Plusnet "phone checking service" but that did not find anything wrong. If one calls the landline one hears ringtone, but the ringing current doesn't reach the landline phone itself. Though once when testing this I heard a faint beeping noise from the landline phone, suggesting that a tiny bit of ring voltage was reaching it.
>
> One day last week I noticed a BT/OpenReach technician dabbling in hatch in the ground just in front of our house - we had nothing wrong at that point, but presumably someone else living nearby reported a problem.
Back in 1997 I had a new business line installed, Ordered Wednesday, installed Thursday, working on Friday. On Saturday morning I picked up the phone - no dial tone. When called you got ring tone, but no ringing. I was about to phone in the fault, when I remembered to check for a BT van outside and sure enough there was one and a chap rummaging about in an underground box. I went to to speak to him: -
Me: My phone <number> has just gone off, please could you check if you have disturbed the wiring.
BT man: You will have to ring it in on Monday morning.
Me: It was only installed a day or two ago.
BT man: You will have to ring it in on Monday morning.
Me: It is a business line - aren't they supposed to be repaired on Saturday mornings [they were].
BT man: You will have to ring it in on Monday morning.
Me: I don't think so as it is on Total Care.
BT man: What number did you say it was again?
By the time I got back upstairs it was working again.
Brian Gregory
Sep 17, 2021, 2:45:32 PM9/17/21
to
On 13/09/2021 21:09, Vir Campestris wrote:
> You don't _need_ a circuit at these frequencies. In fact if you look at
> old school Ethernet it was a 10Mb/s signal down the centre of a coax,
> with the outer acting merely as a shield.
In a sense you might not "need" a circuit at those frequencies but
> You don't _need_ a circuit at these frequencies. In fact if you look at
> old school Ethernet it was a 10Mb/s signal down the centre of a coax,
> with the outer acting merely as a shield.
without the balanced twisted pair you open the circuit up to massive
amounts of interference from other nearby phone lines and from medium
and short wave radio signals.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Brian Gregory
Sep 17, 2021, 2:52:24 PM9/17/21
to
On 13/09/2021 23:07, Pete Forman wrote:
> I had a very similar experience last week. We had on Openreach engineer
> spending several days rewiring the local PCP. My landline cut out in the
> middle of a call while the VDSL survived. I had a quick chat with him
> and left him with my phone number. He said that I should raise a line
> fault with Plusnet if the problem persisted but it was fixed within a
> few minutes.
If the VDSL was completely unaffected then the chances are the circuit
> I had a very similar experience last week. We had on Openreach engineer
> spending several days rewiring the local PCP. My landline cut out in the
> middle of a call while the VDSL survived. I had a quick chat with him
> and left him with my phone number. He said that I should raise a line
> fault with Plusnet if the problem persisted but it was fixed within a
> few minutes.
was temporarily broken on the far side of your DSL filter in the PCP so
that only your connection to the exchange was broken while your
connection to the fibre cabinet remained untouched.
Clive Page
Oct 2, 2021, 1:47:36 PM10/2/21
to
Just thought I'd provide an update on (lack of) progress.
We've now had two OpenReach technicians around, once each of the last two weeks. Each one found a fault in a pair under the road between two junction boxes. Each time the technician has discovered an unused apparently good pair to use instead. Which worked for a day or two before that also failed. It could be that there is a good reason why these pairs were unused, or it could be that all of the pairs in this cable are corroded so badly that they are useless. As a result we've been free from receiving junk calls for most of the last three weeks, but we're beginning to pine for the time when one could make and receive landline calls. Fortunately broadband has been working more than half of the time, sometimes up to full speed.
On Tuesday there is supposed to be a "senior engineer" (which I suspect means a senior technician) coming. I was told some time ago that all of the domestic connections in our area used aluminium rather than copper. My guess is that it might all be reaching the end of its life as it must be ~40 years old.
So I will suggest the removal of all the old cable and it's replacement with new. I assume the cables are buried in a duct so the road won't have to be dug up. Or is there a chance that BT might decide to stop wasting time on metal cable and install fibre to all of us?
--
Clive Page
We've now had two OpenReach technicians around, once each of the last two weeks. Each one found a fault in a pair under the road between two junction boxes. Each time the technician has discovered an unused apparently good pair to use instead. Which worked for a day or two before that also failed. It could be that there is a good reason why these pairs were unused, or it could be that all of the pairs in this cable are corroded so badly that they are useless. As a result we've been free from receiving junk calls for most of the last three weeks, but we're beginning to pine for the time when one could make and receive landline calls. Fortunately broadband has been working more than half of the time, sometimes up to full speed.
On Tuesday there is supposed to be a "senior engineer" (which I suspect means a senior technician) coming. I was told some time ago that all of the domestic connections in our area used aluminium rather than copper. My guess is that it might all be reaching the end of its life as it must be ~40 years old.
So I will suggest the removal of all the old cable and it's replacement with new. I assume the cables are buried in a duct so the road won't have to be dug up. Or is there a chance that BT might decide to stop wasting time on metal cable and install fibre to all of us?
--
Clive Page
Andy Burns
Oct 2, 2021, 1:55:46 PM10/2/21
to
Clive Page wrote:
> I was told some time ago that all of the domestic connections in our area used
> aluminium rather than copper. My guess is that it might all be reaching the end
> of its life as it must be ~40 years old.
>
> So I will suggest the removal of all the old cable and it's replacement with
> new. I assume the cables are buried in a duct so the road won't have to be dug
> up. Or is there a chance that BT might decide to stop wasting time on metal
> cable and install fibre to all of us?
Or they might decide that since "fibre is coming real soon now" it's not worth
> I was told some time ago that all of the domestic connections in our area used
> aluminium rather than copper. My guess is that it might all be reaching the end
> of its life as it must be ~40 years old.
>
> So I will suggest the removal of all the old cable and it's replacement with
> new. I assume the cables are buried in a duct so the road won't have to be dug
> up. Or is there a chance that BT might decide to stop wasting time on metal
> cable and install fibre to all of us?
replacing anything ...
grinch
Oct 3, 2021, 4:49:44 AM10/3/21
to
to say it does not work and it is to expensive to fix so we wont bother.
They don't have to provide you with a service but if they do it must now
support 10meg.
To dig up the road and replace a cable could cost say £10000 and we pay
a most £20 for the circuit what would you do. Remember they are a
business not a service provider , and never have been.
Graham J
Oct 3, 2021, 5:44:43 AM10/3/21
to
grinch wrote:
> On 02/10/2021 18:55, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Clive Page wrote:
>>
>>> I was told some time ago that all of the domestic connections in our
>>> area used aluminium rather than copper. My guess is that it might
>>> all be reaching the end of its life as it must be ~40 years old.
>>>
>>> So I will suggest the removal of all the old cable and it's
>>> replacement with new. I assume the cables are buried in a duct so
>>> the road won't have to be dug up. Or is there a chance that BT might
>>> decide to stop wasting time on metal cable and install fibre to all
>>> of us?
>>
>> Or they might decide that since "fibre is coming real soon now" it's
>> not worth replacing anything ...
>
> From many personal professional dealings with BT/OR the most likely is
> to say it does not work and it is to expensive to fix so we wont bother.
>
> They don't have to provide you with a service but if they do it must now
> support 10meg.
>
> To dig up the road and replace a cable could cost say £10,000 and we pay
> On 02/10/2021 18:55, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Clive Page wrote:
>>
>>> I was told some time ago that all of the domestic connections in our
>>> area used aluminium rather than copper. My guess is that it might
>>> all be reaching the end of its life as it must be ~40 years old.
>>>
>>> So I will suggest the removal of all the old cable and it's
>>> replacement with new. I assume the cables are buried in a duct so
>>> the road won't have to be dug up. Or is there a chance that BT might
>>> decide to stop wasting time on metal cable and install fibre to all
>>> of us?
>>
>> Or they might decide that since "fibre is coming real soon now" it's
>> not worth replacing anything ...
>
> From many personal professional dealings with BT/OR the most likely is
> to say it does not work and it is to expensive to fix so we wont bother.
>
> They don't have to provide you with a service but if they do it must now
> support 10meg.
>
> at most £20 for the circuit, so what would you do? Remember they are a
> business not a service provider, and never have been.
So the need is for political pressure to create a universal service
obligation. The installation costs of "difficult" lines if amortised
across the whole user base would be trivial - a few pence extra per
month ...
Given that the cost to government of forcing the UK population to
communicate with it via the internet is so much less than more
old-fashioned methods, one would have thought that the government itself
would fund universal internet connectivity.
--
Graham J
notya...@gmail.com
Oct 3, 2021, 7:49:52 AM10/3/21
to
On Monday, 13 September 2021 at 18:44:35 UTC+1, Clive Page wrote:
> Late on Friday night our broadband connection (FTTC) stopped with the router/modem showing orange where it is normally blue for normal. I immediately checked the phone - no dial tone. To my surprise the broadband came back a few minutes later, though the download speed was less than half the 30 Mb/s we normally get.
>
> But the landline phone stayed dead. Obviously I did the usual checks: tried another handset, plugged it into the socket on the master socket, etc. And tried the Plusnet "phone checking service" but that did not find anything wrong. If one calls the landline one hears ringtone, but the ringing current doesn't reach the landline phone itself. Though once when testing this I heard a faint beeping noise from the landline phone, suggesting that a tiny bit of ring voltage was reaching it.
Very common - usually a break in the PSTN wire between the cabinet and the exchange. Phone goes off, broadband stays on.
>
> But the landline phone stayed dead. Obviously I did the usual checks: tried another handset, plugged it into the socket on the master socket, etc. And tried the Plusnet "phone checking service" but that did not find anything wrong. If one calls the landline one hears ringtone, but the ringing current doesn't reach the landline phone itself. Though once when testing this I heard a faint beeping noise from the landline phone, suggesting that a tiny bit of ring voltage was reaching it.
>
> One day last week I noticed a BT/OpenReach technician dabbling in hatch in the ground just in front of our house - we had nothing wrong at that point, but presumably someone else living nearby reported a problem.
>
> My guess is that the wires to our house were disturbed and left us with has a bad connection. But I'm rather surprised that the phone is completely dead while the broadband service is working, albeit at lower speed. Anyone else experienced this?
>
> We reported this to our phone supplier, Plusnet, the following day, but the soonest that they can get OpenReach to come and investigate is Wednesday. I suppose that is par for the course.
In the meantime keep ringing in every few hours - bell voltage may clear the fault.
>
>
> --
> Clive Page
Clive Page
Oct 17, 2021, 7:06:21 AM10/17/21
to
Just to follow up with a note on the resolution. A BT/OpenReach "senior engineer" (actually the same technician who cane on visit #1, but not that on visit #2), turned up and spent a lot of time delving in hatches in this road and the next one. He said he had found not just a new pair to use but a new pair in a different cable and this should be more reliable. So far it has been. I suspect all cables around here were installed ~40 years ago and are getting near the end of their lives.
Next I asked Plusnet what compensation we were entitled to for about 3 weeks without a landline phone and with at best flaky broadband. Their response was to send me 19 emails, 18 of them identical, to each of the two email addresses I have registered with them. The identical ones said we were getting £3-70 compensation. I've no idea what is going on, but if these compensation amounts are cumulative then that might add up to a reasonable amount. We have, after all, had to pay extra for mobile phone broadband for the last month and for a good many mobile phone calls. When I logged in later to check the bill no credits showed up; maybe when another bill is generated next month all will become clear.
What a way to run a communications company. You couldn't make it up.
--
Clive Page
Next I asked Plusnet what compensation we were entitled to for about 3 weeks without a landline phone and with at best flaky broadband. Their response was to send me 19 emails, 18 of them identical, to each of the two email addresses I have registered with them. The identical ones said we were getting £3-70 compensation. I've no idea what is going on, but if these compensation amounts are cumulative then that might add up to a reasonable amount. We have, after all, had to pay extra for mobile phone broadband for the last month and for a good many mobile phone calls. When I logged in later to check the bill no credits showed up; maybe when another bill is generated next month all will become clear.
What a way to run a communications company. You couldn't make it up.
--
Clive Page
Woody
Oct 17, 2021, 8:42:24 AM10/17/21
to
I rest my case.
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