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FTTP Install what to expect
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Martin Brown
Nov 10, 2021, 6:13:43 AM11/10/21
to
So far so good Openreach have been in touch and I now have a much better
idea of how the fibre to premises kit will look.
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
The only surprise is that *both* the internal wall termination box and
the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
Power cable and modem interconnect lengths are not specified.
It is going to have to live on an extension lead for a while...
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
idea of how the fibre to premises kit will look.
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
The only surprise is that *both* the internal wall termination box and
the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
Power cable and modem interconnect lengths are not specified.
It is going to have to live on an extension lead for a while...
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Jeff Gaines
Nov 10, 2021, 6:59:41 AM11/10/21
to
On 10/11/2021 in message <smg9h5$teg$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Martin Brown wrote:
>So far so good Openreach have been in touch and I now have a much better
>idea of how the fibre to premises kit will look.
>
>https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
>
>The only surprise is that both the internal wall termination box and the
>So far so good Openreach have been in touch and I now have a much better
>idea of how the fibre to premises kit will look.
>
>https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
>
>fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
>dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
>
>Power cable and modem interconnect lengths are not specified.
>
>It is going to have to live on an extension lead for a while...
That's a very detailed and clear explanation, would never have happened
>dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
>
>Power cable and modem interconnect lengths are not specified.
>
>It is going to have to live on an extension lead for a while...
before it became a private organisation. I see they've found a picture of
a middle aged white man, didn't think there were any left!
--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have
others.
(Groucho Marx)
Andy Burns
Nov 10, 2021, 7:01:13 AM11/10/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
Stupid BT have styled the whole <body> element as {overflow: hidden} so you
can't scroll down the page ...
> https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
Stupid BT have styled the whole <body> element as {overflow: hidden} so you
can't scroll down the page ...
Graham J
Nov 10, 2021, 7:54:05 AM11/10/21
to
Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 10/11/2021 in message <smg9h5$teg$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> So far so good Openreach have been in touch and I now have a much
>> better idea of how the fibre to premises kit will look.
>>
>> https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
>>
>>
>> The only surprise is that both the internal wall termination box and
>> the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
>> dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
>>
>> Power cable and modem interconnect lengths are not specified.
>>
>> It is going to have to live on an extension lead for a while...
>
> That's a very detailed and clear explanation, would never have happened
> before it became a private organisation. I see they've found a picture
> of a middle aged white man, didn't think there were any left!
>
So do we suppose that you can use a third-party router, and that the
> On 10/11/2021 in message <smg9h5$teg$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> So far so good Openreach have been in touch and I now have a much
>> better idea of how the fibre to premises kit will look.
>>
>> https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
>>
>>
>> The only surprise is that both the internal wall termination box and
>> the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
>> dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
>>
>> Power cable and modem interconnect lengths are not specified.
>>
>> It is going to have to live on an extension lead for a while...
>
> That's a very detailed and clear explanation, would never have happened
> before it became a private organisation. I see they've found a picture
> of a middle aged white man, didn't think there were any left!
>
connection between the router and fibre modem is Ethernet?
--
Graham J
Andy Burns
Nov 10, 2021, 7:59:01 AM11/10/21
to
Graham J wrote:
> So do we suppose that you can use a third-party router
on using a POTS socket on the router.
> and that the connection between the router and fibre modem is Ethernet?
Richard Tobin
Nov 10, 2021, 8:05:06 AM11/10/21
to
In article <smg9h5$teg$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
implies that the two sockets are for the fibre modem and your router.
The "box ... on the inside" *is* the modem. That's what I have.
It also says:
We'll install two boxes, one inside your property and one outside.
What is the external box for? I don't have one. The wire from the
pole (which consists of both the fibre and a copper phone connection)
comes straight through the wall.
-- Richard
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>The only surprise is that *both* the internal wall termination box and
>the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
>dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
The website you mentioned,
>The only surprise is that *both* the internal wall termination box and
>the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
>dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
implies that the two sockets are for the fibre modem and your router.
The "box ... on the inside" *is* the modem. That's what I have.
It also says:
We'll install two boxes, one inside your property and one outside.
What is the external box for? I don't have one. The wire from the
pole (which consists of both the fibre and a copper phone connection)
comes straight through the wall.
-- Richard
Richard Tobin
Nov 10, 2021, 8:10:08 AM11/10/21
to
In article <smgfdb$jrf$1...@dont-email.me>,
-- Richard
Graham J <nob...@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
>So do we suppose that you can use a third-party router, and that the
>connection between the router and fibre modem is Ethernet?
I use a Netgear pfSense router. The connection is PPPoE.
>So do we suppose that you can use a third-party router, and that the
>connection between the router and fibre modem is Ethernet?
-- Richard
Andy Burns
Nov 10, 2021, 8:12:55 AM11/10/21
to
Richard Tobin wrote:
> What is the external box for?
Demarcation point, allows testing in future without them needing access inside
> What is the external box for?
the property.
Tweed
Nov 10, 2021, 8:21:06 AM11/10/21
to
Have a look at this video
https://player.vimeo.com/video/525110308?dnt=1&app_id=122963
at around 30 minutes in.
It is a very interesting video for anyone interested in how FTTP is wired.
Martin Brown
Nov 10, 2021, 8:33:08 AM11/10/21
to
On 10/11/2021 13:04, Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <smg9h5$teg$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The only surprise is that *both* the internal wall termination box and
>> the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
>> dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
>
> The website you mentioned,
>
> https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
>
> implies that the two sockets are for the fibre modem and your router.
> The "box ... on the inside" *is* the modem. That's what I have.
OK. Thanks. What model and what and how many outputs does it have?
> In article <smg9h5$teg$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The only surprise is that *both* the internal wall termination box and
>> the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
>> dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
>
> The website you mentioned,
>
> https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
>
> implies that the two sockets are for the fibre modem and your router.
> The "box ... on the inside" *is* the modem. That's what I have.
I'm getting different descriptions from my contacts.
I presume the other box is the router then. Is it also gigabyte class?
> It also says:
>
> We'll install two boxes, one inside your property and one outside.
>
> What is the external box for? I don't have one. The wire from the
> pole (which consists of both the fibre and a copper phone connection)
> comes straight through the wall.
these days and the outside box is to weather proof their cable run.
My POTS phone line comes from a pole directly into the loft where they
"conveniently" installed the master sockets (two lines). I split the
ADSL signal off there and run it to my office. Sounds like I will need
to run some 20m of Cat6 cabling instead.
We are quite primitive here with mains and phone lines arriving on
vulnerable overhead lines (all on the same poles). Milk tanker totals
them every now and then usually on a particularly frosty morning from
hitting black ice. Took out 10m of holly hedge too last time he did it.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Martin Brown
Nov 10, 2021, 8:34:44 AM11/10/21
to
On 10/11/2021 12:58, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> Graham J wrote:
>
>> So do we suppose that you can use a third-party router
>
> Yes, but that might prevent using the ISP's own voice features, if that
> relies on using a POTS socket on the router.
I see no reason why you can't daisy chain a second router onto their kit
>
> Graham J wrote:
>
>> So do we suppose that you can use a third-party router
>
> Yes, but that might prevent using the ISP's own voice features, if that
> relies on using a POTS socket on the router.
provided that you disable it from using its own DHCP. I do that to
provide Wifi coverage through the rest of my house.
High speed stuff is best off going directly to their router though.
>> and that the connection between the router and fibre modem is Ethernet?
> Yes gigabit, but I thought that was widely known by people here.
nature of the interconnection between the wall box and their router.
Seems at least two sorts are in play one with a single gigabyte output
and a maybe a phone like socket and another with about 4 ethernet ports.
I was blissfully unaware of the powered wall box until this morning.
It could get interesting since the incoming existing POTS line enters
the property in the loft where the master socket is "conveniently"
located. I'm not kidding!
Initially I will be happy if it all works at 100M though I will want to
speed test it to its rated maximum during the 30 day 500M trial period.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Andy Burns
Nov 10, 2021, 9:00:58 AM11/10/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> I see no reason why you can't daisy chain a second router onto their kit
> provided that you disable it from using its own DHCP. I do that to provide Wifi
> coverage through the rest of my house.
maybe, maybe not ... is there special sauce on the router's WAN port e.g. a
> I see no reason why you can't daisy chain a second router onto their kit
> provided that you disable it from using its own DHCP. I do that to provide Wifi
> coverage through the rest of my house.
dedicated VLAN for VoIP traffic, so the ISP's router might need to be "first"
with your own plugged into the LAN side of that, personally I wouldn't want
cascaded routers.
> What is less clear is what form the fibre modem itself takes and the nature of
> the interconnection between the wall box and their router.
<https://www.servicepower.co.uk/shop/fibre-optic-patchcords/scapc-patchcords/scapc-scapc-singlemode-9125-simplex>
when Mr BT has gone, you can replace it with a nice long one to relocate the
modem and router somewhere else.
> Seems at least two sorts are in play one with a single gigabyte output and a
> maybe a phone like socket and another with about 4 ethernet ports.
they used to supply a UPS and a larger box that the modem + router + UPS all
lived in, and there was no external box.
Richard Tobin
Nov 10, 2021, 9:05:06 AM11/10/21
to
In article <smghmh$tkd$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
it looks very similar to the one described here:
https://www.openreach.com/content/dam/openreach/openreach-dam-files/images/news-and-opinion/articles/2018/02/ONT%20Factsheet.pdf
There is an unused port labelled "TEL1".
It was installed about 3 years ago.
-- Richard
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>OK. Thanks. What model and what and how many outputs does it have?
I can't see anything resembling a manufacturer or model number, but
>OK. Thanks. What model and what and how many outputs does it have?
it looks very similar to the one described here:
https://www.openreach.com/content/dam/openreach/openreach-dam-files/images/news-and-opinion/articles/2018/02/ONT%20Factsheet.pdf
There is an unused port labelled "TEL1".
It was installed about 3 years ago.
-- Richard
Andy Burns
Nov 10, 2021, 9:05:58 AM11/10/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> I suspect they assume that everyone has underground physical cabling these days
> and the outside box is to weather proof their cable run.
>
> My POTS phone line comes from a pole directly into the loft where they
> "conveniently" installed the master sockets (two lines).
In which case for FTTP, they're likely to want to string the new fibre up at
> I suspect they assume that everyone has underground physical cabling these days
> and the outside box is to weather proof their cable run.
>
> My POTS phone line comes from a pole directly into the loft where they
> "conveniently" installed the master sockets (two lines).
loft height, then drop down to "knee level" for the external demarc box, then go
back up to loft height, before going through the wall, if the loft is still
where you want the active kit to live?
This means lower likelihood of an engineer having to use ladders (nasty H&S
rules) in future for trouble shooting, he can plug his test kit in at "knee level".
Andy Burns
Nov 10, 2021, 9:10:13 AM11/10/21
to
Richard Tobin wrote:
> https://www.openreach.com/content/dam/openreach/openreach-dam-files/images/news-and-opinion/articles/2018/02/ONT%20Factsheet.pdf
>
> There is an unused port labelled "TEL1".
>
> It was installed about 3 years ago.
That's a bit old-hat, the new single port style is as on the right here.
> https://www.openreach.com/content/dam/openreach/openreach-dam-files/images/news-and-opinion/articles/2018/02/ONT%20Factsheet.pdf
>
> There is an unused port labelled "TEL1".
>
> It was installed about 3 years ago.
<https://www.ispreview.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/bt-openreach-uk-illustrations/fttp_old_ont_vs_new_ont_2019.jpg>
Richard Tobin
Nov 10, 2021, 9:55:06 AM11/10/21
to
In article <iv2263...@mid.individual.net>,
The thing on the right is remarkably similar to what's inside the
thing on the left!
The only difference in the labelling is the absence of the port to
connect to the battery back-up.
-- Richard
thing on the left!
The only difference in the labelling is the absence of the port to
connect to the battery back-up.
-- Richard
Mark Carver
Nov 10, 2021, 10:01:06 AM11/10/21
to
On 10/11/2021 14:05, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> I suspect they assume that everyone has underground physical cabling
>> these days and the outside box is to weather proof their cable run.
>>
>> My POTS phone line comes from a pole directly into the loft where
>> they "conveniently" installed the master sockets (two lines).
>
>
> In which case for FTTP, they're likely to want to string the new fibre
> up at loft height, then drop down to "knee level" for the external
> demarc box, then go back up to loft height, before going through the
> wall, if the loft is still where you want the active kit to live?
I'm not sure, because of summertime temperatures a domestic loft is
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> I suspect they assume that everyone has underground physical cabling
>> these days and the outside box is to weather proof their cable run.
>>
>> My POTS phone line comes from a pole directly into the loft where
>> they "conveniently" installed the master sockets (two lines).
>
>
> In which case for FTTP, they're likely to want to string the new fibre
> up at loft height, then drop down to "knee level" for the external
> demarc box, then go back up to loft height, before going through the
> wall, if the loft is still where you want the active kit to live?
really a good place for active hi tech electronics ?
Graham J
Nov 10, 2021, 10:07:40 AM11/10/21
to
Mark Carver wrote:
[snip]
>
> I'm not sure, because of summertime temperatures a domestic loft is
> really a good place for active hi tech electronics ?
You could try water cooling - there's usually (in the UK) a cold water
storage tank.
--
Graham J
[snip]
>
> I'm not sure, because of summertime temperatures a domestic loft is
> really a good place for active hi tech electronics ?
storage tank.
--
Graham J
Mark Carver
Nov 10, 2021, 10:17:54 AM11/10/21
to
so last century
Chris Green
Nov 10, 2021, 10:33:04 AM11/10/21
to
Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It is a very interesting video for anyone interested in how FTTP is wired.
>
I thought it wasn't! :-)
>
> It is a very interesting video for anyone interested in how FTTP is wired.
>
--
Chris Green
·
Andy Burns
Nov 10, 2021, 11:15:46 AM11/10/21
to
Richard Tobin wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> That's a bit old-hat, the new single port style is as on the right here.
>>
>> <https://www.ispreview.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/bt-openreach-uk-illustrations/fttp_old_ont_vs_new_ont_2019.jpg>
>
> The thing on the right is remarkably similar to what's inside the
> thing on the left!
Sorry, there's a smaller version
<https://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/neilb/files/2021/02/IMG_20210211_130106219.jpg>
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> That's a bit old-hat, the new single port style is as on the right here.
>>
>> <https://www.ispreview.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/bt-openreach-uk-illustrations/fttp_old_ont_vs_new_ont_2019.jpg>
>
> The thing on the right is remarkably similar to what's inside the
> thing on the left!
<https://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/neilb/files/2021/02/IMG_20210211_130106219.jpg>
Martin Brown
Nov 10, 2021, 12:26:12 PM11/10/21
to
On 10/11/2021 14:05, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> I suspect they assume that everyone has underground physical cabling
>> these days and the outside box is to weather proof their cable run.
>>
>> My POTS phone line comes from a pole directly into the loft where they
>> "conveniently" installed the master sockets (two lines).
>
> In which case for FTTP, they're likely to want to string the new fibre
> up at loft height, then drop down to "knee level" for the external
> demarc box, then go back up to loft height, before going through the
> wall, if the loft is still where you want the active kit to live?
Having the master sockets in the loft wasn't my idea.
>
>> I suspect they assume that everyone has underground physical cabling
>> these days and the outside box is to weather proof their cable run.
>>
>> My POTS phone line comes from a pole directly into the loft where they
>> "conveniently" installed the master sockets (two lines).
>
> In which case for FTTP, they're likely to want to string the new fibre
> up at loft height, then drop down to "knee level" for the external
> demarc box, then go back up to loft height, before going through the
> wall, if the loft is still where you want the active kit to live?
BT did that after a previous line hit by tree disaster!
> This means lower likelihood of an engineer having to use ladders (nasty
> H&S rules) in future for trouble shooting, he can plug his test kit in
> at "knee level".
gable end at present and immediately above a wide bay window.
If the cable comes down to ground level then I think I'd be inclined to
reverse everything and have the modem and router there and then have to
rewire my cat5 connection from my office down to the living room. That
existing wire is good for 100M but won't support 1G. Inertia may rule!
I can move something with a 1G ethernet port to do >100M speed tests.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Andy Burns
Nov 10, 2021, 12:38:02 PM11/10/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> Having the master sockets in the loft wasn't my idea.
> BT did that after a previous line hit by tree disaster!
ok, so they'll give you a choice where you want it this time.
> Having the master sockets in the loft wasn't my idea.
> BT did that after a previous line hit by tree disaster!
>> This means lower likelihood of an engineer having to use ladders (nasty H&S
>> rules) in future for trouble shooting, he can plug his test kit in at "knee
>> level".
>
> Hmm. Thanks for the advanced warning. Line comes in at the apex of the gable end
> at present and immediately above a wide bay window.
>
> If the cable comes down to ground level then I think I'd be inclined to reverse
> everything and have the modem and router there and then have to rewire my cat5
> connection from my office down to the living room. That existing wire is good
> for 100M but won't support 1G. Inertia may rule!
ethernet was specced to use existing cat5, so you should be fine, especially as
I assume it's much less than 100m from your office to your living room ...
Chris Green
Nov 10, 2021, 1:33:05 PM11/10/21
to
> If the cable comes down to ground level then I think I'd be inclined to
> reverse everything and have the modem and router there and then have to
> rewire my cat5 connection from my office down to the living room. That
> existing wire is good for 100M but won't support 1G. Inertia may rule!
>
As long as it's fully wired I've found that even pretty old Cat5 will
> reverse everything and have the modem and router there and then have to
> rewire my cat5 connection from my office down to the living room. That
> existing wire is good for 100M but won't support 1G. Inertia may rule!
>
support Gigabit, especially at the few tens of metres lengths one has
in a house.
--
Chris Green
·
Vir Campestris
Nov 10, 2021, 4:33:05 PM11/10/21
to
I have three boxes:
- An external junction box. This is unpowered.
- An internal fibre modem. This is on a short length of fibre to the
external junction box. This does need power.
- A router. Again, this needs power.
The link between the modem and the router is plain old Ethernet.
(Twisted pair I mean, not 10base5...). I assume it's running gigabit -
certainly it's more than 100Mbit.
For me it was convenient to have the modem and router in the same place
(understairs cupboard) but I see no reason why they have to be.
There are POTS ports on the router, but they never worked.
Andy
Andy Burns
Nov 10, 2021, 5:26:18 PM11/10/21
to
Vir Campestris wrote:
> I have three boxes:
> - An external junction box. This is unpowered.
> - An internal fibre modem. This is on a short length of fibre to the external
> junction box. This does need power.
> - A router. Again, this needs power.
>
> The link between the modem and the router is plain old Ethernet. (Twisted pair I
> mean, not 10base5...). I assume it's running gigabit - certainly it's more than
> 100Mbit.
>
> For me it was convenient to have the modem and router in the same place
> (understairs cupboard) but I see no reason why they have to be.
>
> There are POTS ports on the router, but they never worked.
As far I I recall, you retained working POTS on original copper pair and master
> I have three boxes:
> - An external junction box. This is unpowered.
> - An internal fibre modem. This is on a short length of fibre to the external
> junction box. This does need power.
> - A router. Again, this needs power.
>
> The link between the modem and the router is plain old Ethernet. (Twisted pair I
> mean, not 10base5...). I assume it's running gigabit - certainly it's more than
> 100Mbit.
>
> For me it was convenient to have the modem and router in the same place
> (understairs cupboard) but I see no reason why they have to be.
>
> There are POTS ports on the router, but they never worked.
socket for "a few months", then BT came back and made some changes to enable
them to cut the copper pair? I think you said that included providing you with
a wifi telephone? But does the POTS socket on the ONT also work?
Graham J
Nov 11, 2021, 3:49:25 AM11/11/21
to
Vir Campestris wrote:
[snip]
> There are POTS ports on the router, but they never worked.
What router do you have? The POTS ports on your router are there to
support VoIP where the router is configured to talk to a VoIP service
provider such as Voipfone or similar. So normally they only exist on a
router such as a Draytek that is intended to support VoIP.
Your internal fibre modem has a POTS port (according to the photo linked
to up-thread). This device can therefore provide the VoIP functionality
(so in effect it contains a router presenting an IP address to the VoIP
module), and it will be configured to communicate with the VoIP service
provided by your ISP. I doubt that you will be able to access the
configuration of this facility so you can't reconfigure it to work with
the VoIP service provider of your choice.
This modem is all that will be needed to allow "granny" to plug in her
telephone when her copper pair is removed and replaced with fibre. She
won't know that she actually has an internet connection.
Can anybody confirm how the customer's router connects to the Ethernet
port on the modem? Does it assume the modem provides an IP address? Or
does it only accept PPPoE traffic and require the router to log into the
ISP? This would have implications for the use of a router that
implements a VPN since the router itself must be the endpoint for the
public IP address.
--
Graham J
[snip]
> There are POTS ports on the router, but they never worked.
support VoIP where the router is configured to talk to a VoIP service
provider such as Voipfone or similar. So normally they only exist on a
router such as a Draytek that is intended to support VoIP.
Your internal fibre modem has a POTS port (according to the photo linked
to up-thread). This device can therefore provide the VoIP functionality
(so in effect it contains a router presenting an IP address to the VoIP
module), and it will be configured to communicate with the VoIP service
provided by your ISP. I doubt that you will be able to access the
configuration of this facility so you can't reconfigure it to work with
the VoIP service provider of your choice.
This modem is all that will be needed to allow "granny" to plug in her
telephone when her copper pair is removed and replaced with fibre. She
won't know that she actually has an internet connection.
Can anybody confirm how the customer's router connects to the Ethernet
port on the modem? Does it assume the modem provides an IP address? Or
does it only accept PPPoE traffic and require the router to log into the
ISP? This would have implications for the use of a router that
implements a VPN since the router itself must be the endpoint for the
public IP address.
--
Graham J
Martin Brown
Nov 11, 2021, 3:51:03 AM11/11/21
to
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Roderick Stewart
Nov 11, 2021, 5:32:16 AM11/11/21
to
On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:33:03 +0000, Vir Campestris
<vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>I have three boxes:
>- An external junction box. This is unpowered.
>- An internal fibre modem. This is on a short length of fibre to the
>external junction box. This does need power.
>- A router. Again, this needs power.
That's the way it looks as far as I can tell. Although it's all
<vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>I have three boxes:
>- An external junction box. This is unpowered.
>- An internal fibre modem. This is on a short length of fibre to the
>external junction box. This does need power.
>- A router. Again, this needs power.
probably fairly low powered, it means one more permanently powered
box, one more mains power supply, one more power cable, and another
cable between the boxes as well.
When VDSL was first installed, there was a small modem supplied by
Openreach and a separate wireless router supplied by my ISP. I managed
to persuade the installer not to screw the modem to the wall, as I
hoped to be able to replace both boxes with a single one on a high
corner shelf at some future time when I'd learned more about the
system, which I was eventually able to do. That's what I have now.
I wonder if I were to upgrade to FTTP, would it be the same story
again? I wonder if it would mean two boxes at first because the new
type of modem was too specialised and only available from Openreach,
but then single boxes becoming available later as the system became
more popular and more manufacturers started making them? Plugging a
fibre "cable" into a fibre port on a little box doesn't look like a
complicated task, so I see no reason why the modem, router and
wireless point couldn't all be incorporated in a single box as it
usually is for ADSL or VDSL now. I think I'l wait.
Rod.
Mark Carver
Nov 11, 2021, 5:36:06 AM11/11/21
to
On 11/11/2021 10:32, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>
> I wonder if I were to upgrade to FTTP, would it be the same story
> again? I wonder if it would mean two boxes at first because the new
> type of modem was too specialised and only available from Openreach,
> but then single boxes becoming available later as the system became
> more popular and more manufacturers started making them? Plugging a
> fibre "cable" into a fibre port on a little box doesn't look like a
> complicated task, so I see no reason why the modem, router and
> wireless point couldn't all be incorporated in a single box as it
> usually is for ADSL or VDSL now. I think I'l wait.
>
I can't see BT Openreach making the fibre connection the demarcation
>
> I wonder if I were to upgrade to FTTP, would it be the same story
> again? I wonder if it would mean two boxes at first because the new
> type of modem was too specialised and only available from Openreach,
> but then single boxes becoming available later as the system became
> more popular and more manufacturers started making them? Plugging a
> fibre "cable" into a fibre port on a little box doesn't look like a
> complicated task, so I see no reason why the modem, router and
> wireless point couldn't all be incorporated in a single box as it
> usually is for ADSL or VDSL now. I think I'l wait.
>
point any time soon.
I don't think they've even managed to fully come to terms with the
copper master socket for POTs yet !
Theo
Nov 11, 2021, 6:13:48 AM11/11/21
to
Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I can't see BT Openreach making the fibre connection the demarcation
> point any time soon.
>
> I don't think they've even managed to fully come to terms with the
> copper master socket for POTs yet !
There may come a time when they do what Virgin do, which is to merge the
> I can't see BT Openreach making the fibre connection the demarcation
> point any time soon.
>
> I don't think they've even managed to fully come to terms with the
> copper master socket for POTs yet !
modem/ONT and router into a single box, which they own. Being owned by
them you have to use their box, you can't replace it, but they will
periodically upgrade it as new standards come along.
If you want to run your own router (for special firewall rules or whatever)
you can put their box in modem mode and put your own router behind it, but
most people stick with the Virgin modem/router and its wifi/etc.
Of course on Virgin (for now anyway) they are both infrastructure provider
and ISP so they merge those functions into one. Openreach don't provide ISP
services, so for the moment you get separate ONT boxes from OR and the
router from your ISP. But I could imagine a point in the future where OR
own the ONT+router hardware and the ISP deploys some kind of virtual machine
onto it for their particular network config. That would cut down the number
of boxes, power supplies, etc.
It would also save waste when you switch ISP, because they would just deploy
a different virtual machine to your existing router rather than sending more
boxes in the post. Although I can't see this happening if ISPs want to
compete on wifi speeds, unless perhaps they push mesh hardware rather than
the most powerful SuperRouter(TM).
Theo
Andy Burns
Nov 11, 2021, 6:19:13 AM11/11/21
to
Roderick Stewart wrote:
> When VDSL was first installed, there was a small modem supplied by
> Openreach and a separate wireless router supplied by my ISP. I managed
> to persuade the installer not to screw the modem to the wall, as I
> hoped to be able to replace both boxes with a single one on a high
> corner shelf at some future time when I'd learned more about the
> system, which I was eventually able to do. That's what I have now.
>
> I wonder if I were to upgrade to FTTP, would it be the same story
> again?
Technically yes, you can get routers with SFP slot(s)
> When VDSL was first installed, there was a small modem supplied by
> Openreach and a separate wireless router supplied by my ISP. I managed
> to persuade the installer not to screw the modem to the wall, as I
> hoped to be able to replace both boxes with a single one on a high
> corner shelf at some future time when I'd learned more about the
> system, which I was eventually able to do. That's what I have now.
>
> I wonder if I were to upgrade to FTTP, would it be the same story
> again?
e.g. <https://mikrotik.com/product/RB960PGS>
and then instead of an ethernet copper or fibre SFP, you can get a GPON SFP
e.g. <https://www.fs.com/products/133619.html>
this setup is used in other countries, and I've had a half-arsed look into
whether it's feasible here.
> I wonder if it would mean two boxes at first because the new
> type of modem was too specialised and only available from Openreach,
> but then single boxes becoming available later as the sy
customers in your vicinity from the passive splitter. The ONT ("modem") is
responsible for decrypting your traffic and filtering out everyone else's, so
what your router sees on the copper gigabit port is just your data in the clear.
Also the data that you send has to fit within your time slot(s) quite like old
2G mobile phones TDMA.
Probably BT are a bit precious about letting your kit do both those functions?
Andy Burns
Nov 11, 2021, 6:20:44 AM11/11/21
to
Theo wrote:
> There may come a time when they do what Virgin do, which is to merge the
> modem/ONT and router into a single box, which they own. Being owned by
> them you have to use their box, you can't replace it, but they will
> periodically upgrade it as new standards come along.
There's talk of VMO2 splitting out their actual network from the Virgin Media
> There may come a time when they do what Virgin do, which is to merge the
> modem/ONT and router into a single box, which they own. Being owned by
> them you have to use their box, you can't replace it, but they will
> periodically upgrade it as new standards come along.
bits, that could shake things up a bit ...
Tweed
Nov 11, 2021, 7:20:20 AM11/11/21
to
credentials embedded within it to decrypt only your traffic. There would
have to be some foolproof method of moving that functionality to user
supplied equipment.
And yes, user supplied equipment would have the ability to mess up the
transmit timing if poorly implemented.
I think the optical side has to remain fully within the control of the
network provider.
Richard Tobin
Nov 11, 2021, 7:25:06 AM11/11/21
to
In article <iv4chf...@mid.individual.net>,
>Also the data that you send has to fit within your time slot(s) quite
>like old 2G mobile phones TDMA.
Do higher speed connections have more slots? Or is the limit imposed
elsewhere?
-- Richard
Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>It's not just your data coming down the fibre, it is the data for up
>to 32 or 64 customers in your vicinity from the passive splitter.
>The ONT ("modem") is responsible for decrypting your traffic and
>filtering out everyone else's, so what your router sees on the copper
>gigabit port is just your data in the clear.
Is there an encryption key unique to the user stored in the ONT?
>It's not just your data coming down the fibre, it is the data for up
>to 32 or 64 customers in your vicinity from the passive splitter.
>The ONT ("modem") is responsible for decrypting your traffic and
>filtering out everyone else's, so what your router sees on the copper
>gigabit port is just your data in the clear.
>Also the data that you send has to fit within your time slot(s) quite
>like old 2G mobile phones TDMA.
elsewhere?
-- Richard
Andy Burns
Nov 11, 2021, 7:36:20 AM11/11/21
to
Tweed wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Probably BT are a bit precious about letting your kit do both those functions?
>
> That’s the problem. The ONT box (modem) has the necessary security
> credentials embedded within it to decrypt only your traffic. There would
> have to be some foolproof method of moving that functionality to user
> supplied equipment.
>
> And yes, user supplied equipment would have the ability to mess up the
> transmit timing if poorly implemented.
>
> I think the optical side has to remain fully within the control of the
> network provider.
One workable method would be for openreach to sell GPON SFPs pre-programmed with
your FTTP "credentials" for you to plug into your own SFP equipped router, then
they control it. Even then they'd probably worry about people extracting
information from the SFP.
Can't see the demand being high enough that they'll want to offer it though :-(
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Probably BT are a bit precious about letting your kit do both those functions?
>
> That’s the problem. The ONT box (modem) has the necessary security
> credentials embedded within it to decrypt only your traffic. There would
> have to be some foolproof method of moving that functionality to user
> supplied equipment.
>
> And yes, user supplied equipment would have the ability to mess up the
> transmit timing if poorly implemented.
>
> I think the optical side has to remain fully within the control of the
> network provider.
your FTTP "credentials" for you to plug into your own SFP equipped router, then
they control it. Even then they'd probably worry about people extracting
information from the SFP.
Can't see the demand being high enough that they'll want to offer it though :-(
Andy Burns
Nov 11, 2021, 7:42:29 AM11/11/21
to
Richard Tobin wrote:
> Is there an encryption key unique to the user stored in the ONT?
don't know if it's stored, or maybe the serial number of the ONT allows looking
> Is there an encryption key unique to the user stored in the ONT?
up keys/credentials/whatever from a sidechannel over the fibre connection? maybe
even TR-069
>> Also the data that you send has to fit within your time slot(s) quite
>> like old 2G mobile phones TDMA.
>
> Do higher speed connections have more slots?
but not exactly how e.g. openreach use the standard
Mark Carver
Nov 11, 2021, 8:01:31 AM11/11/21
to
On 11/11/2021 11:13, Theo wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I can't see BT Openreach making the fibre connection the demarcation
>> point any time soon.
>>
>> I don't think they've even managed to fully come to terms with the
>> copper master socket for POTs yet !
> There may come a time when they do what Virgin do, which is to merge the
> modem/ONT and router into a single box, which they own. Being owned by
> them you have to use their box, you can't replace it, but they will
> periodically upgrade it as new standards come along.
>
> If you want to run your own router (for special firewall rules or whatever)
> you can put their box in modem mode and put your own router behind it, but
> most people stick with the Virgin modem/router and its wifi/etc.
>
>
Yes, although some of the positions of that install may not be in
> Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I can't see BT Openreach making the fibre connection the demarcation
>> point any time soon.
>>
>> I don't think they've even managed to fully come to terms with the
>> copper master socket for POTs yet !
> There may come a time when they do what Virgin do, which is to merge the
> modem/ONT and router into a single box, which they own. Being owned by
> them you have to use their box, you can't replace it, but they will
> periodically upgrade it as new standards come along.
>
> If you want to run your own router (for special firewall rules or whatever)
> you can put their box in modem mode and put your own router behind it, but
> most people stick with the Virgin modem/router and its wifi/etc.
>
>
terribly 'WiFi friendly' locations.
I'm just thinking of where I'll probably ask my ONT to be situated when
the time comes, and it'll be at the front of the house, under the study
desk.
Not a problem for me, I'll be sending the Ethernet output up a tie line
into the middle of the house and into my technology cupboard
Martin Brown
Nov 14, 2021, 3:32:26 AM11/14/21
to
On 10/11/2021 13:04, Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <smg9h5$teg$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
>
> https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
>
> implies that the two sockets are for the fibre modem and your router.
> The "box ... on the inside" *is* the modem. That's what I have.
>
> It also says:
>
> We'll install two boxes, one inside your property and one outside.
>
> What is the external box for? I don't have one. The wire from the
> pole (which consists of both the fibre and a copper phone connection)
> comes straight through the wall.
Update from my doppelganger - the farm shop that sometimes gets bonded
to my phone line in bad weather and was a few days ahead of me for its
fibre installation (to try and get out of the mad house of dodgy copper
circuits). It did not go well...
It seems that for their commercial premises (farm shop) planning
permission is required (even though *their* phone line is underground).
I don't understand this but their engineer was quite certain about it.
I only have basic info as Saturday afternoon when it is crazy busy isn't
the best time to hold a long conversation. They don't expect to upgrade
before Xmas but with a bit of luck if my upgrade goes OK we won't be on
an involuntary party line this year when the water table rises.
(or maybe we will be for POTS voice calls over copper - I don't know)
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
> In article <smg9h5$teg$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> The only surprise is that *both* the internal wall termination box and
>> the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
>> dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
>
> The website you mentioned,
>> the fibre modem will each require their own separate mains power so a
>> dedicated double socket is needed near the point of entry.
>
>
> https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/full-fibre-broadband-installation-checklist
>
> implies that the two sockets are for the fibre modem and your router.
> The "box ... on the inside" *is* the modem. That's what I have.
>
> It also says:
>
> We'll install two boxes, one inside your property and one outside.
>
> What is the external box for? I don't have one. The wire from the
> pole (which consists of both the fibre and a copper phone connection)
> comes straight through the wall.
Update from my doppelganger - the farm shop that sometimes gets bonded
to my phone line in bad weather and was a few days ahead of me for its
fibre installation (to try and get out of the mad house of dodgy copper
circuits). It did not go well...
It seems that for their commercial premises (farm shop) planning
permission is required (even though *their* phone line is underground).
I don't understand this but their engineer was quite certain about it.
I only have basic info as Saturday afternoon when it is crazy busy isn't
the best time to hold a long conversation. They don't expect to upgrade
before Xmas but with a bit of luck if my upgrade goes OK we won't be on
an involuntary party line this year when the water table rises.
(or maybe we will be for POTS voice calls over copper - I don't know)
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Jeff Gaines
Nov 14, 2021, 3:43:53 AM11/14/21
to
On 14/11/2021 in message <smqhio$10rj$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Martin Brown wrote:
>It seems that for their commercial premises (farm shop) planning
>permission is required (even though their phone line is underground). I
>It seems that for their commercial premises (farm shop) planning
>don't understand this but their engineer was quite certain about it.
You could try uk.legal.moderated if you wanted to check?
--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
I take full responsibility for what happened - that is why the person that
was responsible went immediately.
(Gordon Brown, April 2009)
Andy Burns
Nov 14, 2021, 3:46:35 AM11/14/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> It seems that for their commercial premises (farm shop) planning permission is
> required (even though *their* phone line is underground). I don't understand
> this but their engineer was quite certain about it.
Engineer confused between "planning permission" and "wayleave" ?
> It seems that for their commercial premises (farm shop) planning permission is
> required (even though *their* phone line is underground). I don't understand
> this but their engineer was quite certain about it.
Martin Brown
Nov 14, 2021, 4:22:52 AM11/14/21
to
very quick conversation in a busy shop. I will know more next week.
My own installation is scheduled for Wednesday. The box of bits has now
arrived and despite their warning to be in to accept it the thing
comfortably fits through a normal sized letterbox and looks to have been
designed with that in mind. Box is 43x19x4 cm and wrapped in a sealed
waterproof thermoplastic protective layer with the shipping label on it.
It looks rather like a stunted keyboard box labelled "BT Smarthub 2". It
is big flat and black and appears to have 4x GB ethernet connectors (end
one labelled WAN), 1x USB 1x phone and 1x broadband on the back.
I presume that it is their standard offering these days and can be used
in any configuration with or without its internal modem as required.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Andy Burns
Nov 14, 2021, 4:33:34 AM11/14/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> "BT Smarthub 2". It is big flat and black and appears to have 4x GB ethernet
> connectors (end one labelled WAN), 1x USB 1x phone and 1x broadband on the back.
>
> I presume that it is their standard offering these days and can be used in any
> configuration with or without its internal modem as required.
I think plusnet also supplying it badged as "Hub Two", the broadband port is for
> "BT Smarthub 2". It is big flat and black and appears to have 4x GB ethernet
> connectors (end one labelled WAN), 1x USB 1x phone and 1x broadband on the back.
>
> I presume that it is their standard offering these days and can be used in any
> configuration with or without its internal modem as required.
xDSL, for FTTP they will use the WAN ethernet port instead. Will they use the
voice socket on the router, or the ONT? Place bets now ...
Martin Brown
Nov 17, 2021, 1:30:56 PM11/17/21
to
On 11/11/2021 13:01, Mark Carver wrote:
>
> I'm just thinking of where I'll probably ask my ONT to be situated when
> the time comes, and it'll be at the front of the house, under the study
> desk.
It is worth walking around the property inside and out with your
>
> I'm just thinking of where I'll probably ask my ONT to be situated when
> the time comes, and it'll be at the front of the house, under the study
> desk.
installation engineer and tell him where you would ideally like it. They
are much less worried about power sockets than the office jobsworths.
I got a much better result that way that I would never have thought of
in a month of Sundays. I now have two connections to different poles.
One carries the old POTS circuit terminating in the far end of the loft.
The new one comes in from a different pole to the other gable end and
drops down to ground level where it traverses round two sides of the
house into the grey splice box. The internal fibre connection is hidden
against the soffit at roof level and drops down behind the drainpipe out
of sight. It is really very neat indeed. I was impressed!
Existing cabling all worked OK at GB speeds even though it is only Cat5.
> Not a problem for me, I'll be sending the Ethernet output up a tie line
> into the middle of the house and into my technology cupboard
living room and turning everything around but his first question was
where do you want to have the fastest connection available.
On the plus side for him he only had to drill through a modern brick
wall instead of three solid courses of Victorian high fired engineering
brick (with small bits of round flint in).
Apart from losing my EE bonus data on my phone contract it has all been
a very simple and convenient upgrade to full fibre. The poor guy had to
work a lot harder than normal since the poles in my village have phone,
fibre and bare mains cables on them so they had to bring in a cherry
picker to work safely close to the hot mains cables. Even so he managed
to finish just inside his notional morning window. Nominally a 8-12 slot
but it took until 2pm. Without the extra complications and delay it
probably would only have taken him a couple of hours to do it normally.
So far so good. It benchmarked speedtest at 450Mbps after commissioning
and may well go a little faster after things have stabilised.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Andy Burns
Nov 18, 2021, 3:04:21 AM11/18/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> It benchmarked speedtest at 450Mbps after commissioning and may well go a little
> faster after things have stabilised.
compared to xDSL, can't think of anything that needs to stabilise?
> It benchmarked speedtest at 450Mbps after commissioning and may well go a little
> faster after things have stabilised.
only two installs/day per engineer sounds bad for BT's profits ...
Theo
Nov 18, 2021, 6:27:11 AM11/18/21
to
every pound they spend on FTTP they get £1.30 off their tax bill. So the
more they spend the happier they get...
Theo
Martin Brown
Nov 18, 2021, 12:24:56 PM11/18/21
to
On 18/11/2021 08:04, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> It benchmarked speedtest at 450Mbps after commissioning and may well
>> go a little faster after things have stabilised.
>
> compared to xDSL, can't think of anything that needs to stabilise?
Apparently the kit needs a few hours for AGC and the like to settle
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> It benchmarked speedtest at 450Mbps after commissioning and may well
>> go a little faster after things have stabilised.
>
> compared to xDSL, can't think of anything that needs to stabilise?
down. There is an optimum power level for it to fine tune.
> only two installs/day per engineer sounds bad for BT's profits ...
normal one without needing the cherry picker I expect it would still
have taken him the full 4 hour slot to physically connect up a new cable
to an overhead pole by ladder and route it to my property. I'm not sure
how one guy on his own is supposed to do this safely across an active
road! (perhaps they always get help for this stage - I don't know)
Anyway guy with cherry picker when he arrived made short work of fixing
the missing infrastructure at the top of my nearest pole and stringing a
cable to me from across the main road. They used the cherry picker to
bridge the cable over the road high in the air. Very neatly done.
Easy enough as a two man job with the right kit.
Unclear how two blokes up ladders could ever do it safely without a
third man to stop the traffic on the road below whilst the cable is
still on the ground.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Richard Tobin
Nov 18, 2021, 3:45:07 PM11/18/21
to
In article <sn6297$15ls$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
how they would do that. The answer is to tie the end of the cable
to a hammer and throw it.
-- Richard
>I did say it was an installation from hell. Though even if it had been a
>normal one without needing the cherry picker I expect it would still
>have taken him the full 4 hour slot to physically connect up a new cable
>to an overhead pole by ladder and route it to my property. I'm not sure
>how one guy on his own is supposed to do this safely across an active
>road! (perhaps they always get help for this stage - I don't know)
Mine had to be threaded through the branches of a tree, and I wondered
>normal one without needing the cherry picker I expect it would still
>have taken him the full 4 hour slot to physically connect up a new cable
>to an overhead pole by ladder and route it to my property. I'm not sure
>how one guy on his own is supposed to do this safely across an active
>road! (perhaps they always get help for this stage - I don't know)
how they would do that. The answer is to tie the end of the cable
to a hammer and throw it.
-- Richard
Martin Brown
Nov 18, 2021, 5:30:21 PM11/18/21
to
I expect they can install one much quicker in a city where the fibre
infrastructure is already in place at the pavement (and there *is* a
pavement). It is all very ad hoc out in the rural backwaters.
The other problem they are seeing is rats eating the cables (already).
It has literally only been installed for 3 months and live for 2 weeks.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Andy Burns
Nov 20, 2021, 4:41:17 AM11/20/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> compared to xDSL, can't think of anything that needs to stabilise?
>
> Apparently the kit needs a few hours for AGC and the like to settle down. There
> is an optimum power level for it to fine tune.
potentially your router could adjust the laser brightness for the upstream, but
the laser on the downstream is passively split between you and 30 odd other
customers, does the headend really adjust the brightness packet-by-packet?
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> compared to xDSL, can't think of anything that needs to stabilise?
>
> Apparently the kit needs a few hours for AGC and the like to settle down. There
> is an optimum power level for it to fine tune.
the laser on the downstream is passively split between you and 30 odd other
customers, does the headend really adjust the brightness packet-by-packet?
Martin Brown
Nov 20, 2021, 12:25:47 PM11/20/21
to
On 20/11/2021 09:41, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> compared to xDSL, can't think of anything that needs to stabilise?
>>
>> Apparently the kit needs a few hours for AGC and the like to settle
>> down. There is an optimum power level for it to fine tune.
>
> potentially your router could adjust the laser brightness for the
> upstream, but the laser on the downstream is passively split between you
> and 30 odd other customers, does the headend really adjust the
> brightness packet-by-packet?
I shouldn't think so, but I can believe that new electronics does have
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> compared to xDSL, can't think of anything that needs to stabilise?
>>
>> Apparently the kit needs a few hours for AGC and the like to settle
>> down. There is an optimum power level for it to fine tune.
>
> potentially your router could adjust the laser brightness for the
> upstream, but the laser on the downstream is passively split between you
> and 30 odd other customers, does the headend really adjust the
> brightness packet-by-packet?
an initial burn in time where they do not quite behave as they will in
the longer term. I expect it varies the gain on the receiver and the
output power on the uplink. The engineer did do an amplitude test with
some sort of mobile optical link tester before connecting it up.
From what he said having too much amplitude can be as bad as too little.
Anyway that was fine (unlike my poxy attenuation and noise on ADSL2+).
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Andy Burns
Nov 20, 2021, 12:54:56 PM11/20/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> From what he said having too much amplitude can be as bad as too little.
> Anyway that was fine (unlike my poxy attenuation and noise on ADSL2+).
On site-to-site fibre connections, I've seen attenuators inserted.
> From what he said having too much amplitude can be as bad as too little.
> Anyway that was fine (unlike my poxy attenuation and noise on ADSL2+).
Vir Campestris
Dec 9, 2021, 5:04:33 PM12/9/21
to
On 10/11/2021 22:26, Andy Burns wrote:
>> (Twisted pair I mean, not 10base5...). I assume it's running gigabit -
>> certainly it's more than 100Mbit.
>>
>> For me it was convenient to have the modem and router in the same
>> place (understairs cupboard) but I see no reason why they have to be.
>>
>> There are POTS ports on the router, but they never worked.
>
> As far I I recall, you retained working POTS on original copper pair and
> master socket for "a few months", then BT came back and made some
> changes to enable them to cut the copper pair? I think you said that
> included providing you with a wifi telephone? But does the POTS socket
> on the ONT also work?
Sorry, been away.
You're completely correct, except the ONT POTS socket has never worked.
Andy
> Vir Campestris wrote:
>
>> I have three boxes:
>> - An external junction box. This is unpowered.
>> - An internal fibre modem. This is on a short length of fibre to the
>> external junction box. This does need power.
>> - A router. Again, this needs power.
>>
>> The link between the modem and the router is plain old Ethernet.
>
>> I have three boxes:
>> - An external junction box. This is unpowered.
>> - An internal fibre modem. This is on a short length of fibre to the
>> external junction box. This does need power.
>> - A router. Again, this needs power.
>>
>> (Twisted pair I mean, not 10base5...). I assume it's running gigabit -
>> certainly it's more than 100Mbit.
>>
>> For me it was convenient to have the modem and router in the same
>> place (understairs cupboard) but I see no reason why they have to be.
>>
>> There are POTS ports on the router, but they never worked.
>
> As far I I recall, you retained working POTS on original copper pair and
> master socket for "a few months", then BT came back and made some
> changes to enable them to cut the copper pair? I think you said that
> included providing you with a wifi telephone? But does the POTS socket
> on the ONT also work?
Sorry, been away.
You're completely correct, except the ONT POTS socket has never worked.
Andy
Martin Brown
Dec 10, 2021, 5:44:12 AM12/10/21
to
On 09/12/2021 22:04, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 10/11/2021 22:26, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Vir Campestris wrote:
>>
>>> I have three boxes:
>>> - An external junction box. This is unpowered.
>>> - An internal fibre modem. This is on a short length of fibre to the
>>> external junction box. This does need power.
>>> - A router. Again, this needs power.
>>>
>>> The link between the modem and the router is plain old Ethernet.
>>> (Twisted pair I mean, not 10base5...). I assume it's running gigabit
>>> - certainly it's more than 100Mbit.
>>>
>>> For me it was convenient to have the modem and router in the same
>>> place (understairs cupboard) but I see no reason why they have to be.
>>>
>>> There are POTS ports on the router, but they never worked.
Looking at it I think it is a filtered pass through for the ADSL input.
> On 10/11/2021 22:26, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Vir Campestris wrote:
>>
>>> I have three boxes:
>>> - An external junction box. This is unpowered.
>>> - An internal fibre modem. This is on a short length of fibre to the
>>> external junction box. This does need power.
>>> - A router. Again, this needs power.
>>>
>>> The link between the modem and the router is plain old Ethernet.
>>> (Twisted pair I mean, not 10base5...). I assume it's running gigabit
>>> - certainly it's more than 100Mbit.
>>>
>>> For me it was convenient to have the modem and router in the same
>>> place (understairs cupboard) but I see no reason why they have to be.
>>>
>>> There are POTS ports on the router, but they never worked.
It is annotated "Phone" symbol of phone - outline lowercase b.
The ADSL input is labelled "ADSL" with a larger outline lowercase b.
>> As far I I recall, you retained working POTS on original copper pair
>> and master socket for "a few months", then BT came back and made some
>> changes to enable them to cut the copper pair? I think you said that
>> included providing you with a wifi telephone? But does the POTS
>> socket on the ONT also work?
>
> Sorry, been away.
>
> You're completely correct, except the ONT POTS socket has never worked.
The original copper line was left in place and still works just as
before (but no longer has an ADSL signal on it). The new fibre drop line
was run from a different pole to a different gable end on the house,
drops to ground level and then goes around the house to a small grey
junction box with the fibre splice inside and then back up to my office.
What surprised me slightly is that the fibre drop line is a figure of 8
shape and includes a copper line pair as well as the fibre. I have no
wish to lose my POTS phone line - mains supply is too unreliable here.
And Northern Powergrid are very slow to fix faults.
The fibre modem is on the inside of the wall and has an optical input
with a small length of fibre and just one 1G ethernet output.
The router is BT's standard offering and has both a WAN input and an
ADSL input, USB and a phone sockets. Minor snag is that in this mode I
only have 3 superfast ethernet links in the office but it works OK.
I have yet to explore what things can be plugged into its USB socket and
be made available over the network.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Graham J
Dec 10, 2021, 8:24:11 AM12/10/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
[snip]
> My installation is complete and is non-standard.
>
> The original copper line was left in place and still works just as
> before (but no longer has an ADSL signal on it). The new fibre drop line
> was run from a different pole to a different gable end on the house,
> drops to ground level and then goes around the house to a small grey
> junction box with the fibre splice inside and then back up to my office.
So in due course (2025 or later) the copper pair with the analog phone
(POTS) will stop working
> What surprised me slightly is that the fibre drop line is a figure of 8
> shape and includes a copper line pair as well as the fibre.
I wonder whether anybody can explain this?
> I have no
> wish to lose my POTS phone line - mains supply is too unreliable here.
> And Northern Powergrid are very slow to fix faults.
... as we have seen in the news recently. The POTS phone and
2G/3G/4G/5G mobile services will work for only as long as their battery
backups survive, which could be as little as an hour. Ordinarily the
mains supply to these facilities will be restored after an hour or less,
and if the power failure is very local probably the supply people will
bring a generator to keep these services alive if the repair is expected
to take a significant time.
The recent storm Arwen caused so much damage that I imagine it was clear
to the engineers on the ground that it would be many days if not weeks
before power would be restored to some areas. There was a clear
opportunity for management to bring in generators from unaffected areas.
The fact that management did not acknowlege the severity of the damage
is likely to be an ongoing problem; it is part of the curent political
and business mindset.
I think it will be important for small remote communities to take
control of this themselves, by having (or knowing where to borrow at
short notice) suitable generators; and encouraging informal social
support so that elderly or disadvantaged neighbours are helped, possibly
by taking them to a hotel unaffected by the power loss.
It's clear that even people with wood-burning stoves struggled without
electricity.
> The fibre modem is on the inside of the wall and has an optical input
> with a small length of fibre and just one 1G ethernet output.
>
> The router is BT's standard offering and has both a WAN input and an
> ADSL input, USB and a phone sockets. Minor snag is that in this mode I
> only have 3 superfast ethernet links in the office but it works OK.
Both the fibre modem and the BT router could be built with itegrated
rechargeable batteries, just as are mobile phones. These would at least
allow a few hours service, and in normal mains failure conditions would
be sufficient.
> I have yet to explore what things can be plugged into its USB socket and
> be made available over the network.
Probably nothing. It might function as a USB modem (like we used to
have in the early days of dial-up).
The phone sockets might function with BT's VOIP service once their POTS
service is discontinued in 2025. But their router might well not allow
the user to configure its VoIP setting to work with a third party VoIP
service such as Voipfone.
--
Graham J
[snip]
> My installation is complete and is non-standard.
>
> The original copper line was left in place and still works just as
> before (but no longer has an ADSL signal on it). The new fibre drop line
> was run from a different pole to a different gable end on the house,
> drops to ground level and then goes around the house to a small grey
> junction box with the fibre splice inside and then back up to my office.
(POTS) will stop working
> What surprised me slightly is that the fibre drop line is a figure of 8
> shape and includes a copper line pair as well as the fibre.
> I have no
> wish to lose my POTS phone line - mains supply is too unreliable here.
> And Northern Powergrid are very slow to fix faults.
2G/3G/4G/5G mobile services will work for only as long as their battery
backups survive, which could be as little as an hour. Ordinarily the
mains supply to these facilities will be restored after an hour or less,
and if the power failure is very local probably the supply people will
bring a generator to keep these services alive if the repair is expected
to take a significant time.
The recent storm Arwen caused so much damage that I imagine it was clear
to the engineers on the ground that it would be many days if not weeks
before power would be restored to some areas. There was a clear
opportunity for management to bring in generators from unaffected areas.
The fact that management did not acknowlege the severity of the damage
is likely to be an ongoing problem; it is part of the curent political
and business mindset.
I think it will be important for small remote communities to take
control of this themselves, by having (or knowing where to borrow at
short notice) suitable generators; and encouraging informal social
support so that elderly or disadvantaged neighbours are helped, possibly
by taking them to a hotel unaffected by the power loss.
It's clear that even people with wood-burning stoves struggled without
electricity.
> The fibre modem is on the inside of the wall and has an optical input
> with a small length of fibre and just one 1G ethernet output.
>
> The router is BT's standard offering and has both a WAN input and an
> ADSL input, USB and a phone sockets. Minor snag is that in this mode I
> only have 3 superfast ethernet links in the office but it works OK.
rechargeable batteries, just as are mobile phones. These would at least
allow a few hours service, and in normal mains failure conditions would
be sufficient.
> I have yet to explore what things can be plugged into its USB socket and
> be made available over the network.
have in the early days of dial-up).
The phone sockets might function with BT's VOIP service once their POTS
service is discontinued in 2025. But their router might well not allow
the user to configure its VoIP setting to work with a third party VoIP
service such as Voipfone.
--
Graham J
Java Jive
Dec 10, 2021, 9:31:44 AM12/10/21
to
On 10/12/2021 13:23, Graham J wrote:
>
> .... as we have seen in the news recently. The POTS phone and
class nation.
> I think it will be important for small remote communities to take
> control of this themselves, by having (or knowing where to borrow at
> short notice) suitable generators; and encouraging informal social
> support so that elderly or disadvantaged neighbours are helped, possibly
> by taking them to a hotel unaffected by the power loss.
Who would pay the hotel fees?
> It's clear that even people with wood-burning stoves struggled without
> electricity.
Yes. What is frequently forgotten is that electricity is used to
control everything else, and without it such things as thermostatic
control is lost, so heating units may not function safely.
> Both the fibre modem and the BT router could be built with itegrated
> rechargeable batteries, just as are mobile phones.
And alarm panels, which might be a better analogy.
> These would at least
> allow a few hours service, and in normal mains failure conditions would
> be sufficient.
Yes.
>> I have yet to explore what things can be plugged into its USB socket
>> and be made available over the network.
>
> Probably nothing. It might function as a USB modem (like we used to
> have in the early days of dial-up).
I have a 4G dongle plugged into mine, providing my internet connection.
--
Fake news kills!
I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk
>
> .... as we have seen in the news recently. The POTS phone and
> 2G/3G/4G/5G mobile services will work for only as long as their battery
> backups survive, which could be as little as an hour. Ordinarily the
> mains supply to these facilities will be restored after an hour or less,
> and if the power failure is very local probably the supply people will
> bring a generator to keep these services alive if the repair is expected
> to take a significant time.
>
> The recent storm Arwen caused so much damage that I imagine it was clear
> to the engineers on the ground that it would be many days if not weeks
> before power would be restored to some areas. There was a clear
> opportunity for management to bring in generators from unaffected areas.
> The fact that management did not acknowlege the severity of the damage
> is likely to be an ongoing problem; it is part of the curent political
> and business mindset.
Yes, in some respects we seem to be slipping back into being a third
> backups survive, which could be as little as an hour. Ordinarily the
> mains supply to these facilities will be restored after an hour or less,
> and if the power failure is very local probably the supply people will
> bring a generator to keep these services alive if the repair is expected
> to take a significant time.
>
> The recent storm Arwen caused so much damage that I imagine it was clear
> to the engineers on the ground that it would be many days if not weeks
> before power would be restored to some areas. There was a clear
> opportunity for management to bring in generators from unaffected areas.
> The fact that management did not acknowlege the severity of the damage
> is likely to be an ongoing problem; it is part of the curent political
> and business mindset.
class nation.
> I think it will be important for small remote communities to take
> control of this themselves, by having (or knowing where to borrow at
> short notice) suitable generators; and encouraging informal social
> support so that elderly or disadvantaged neighbours are helped, possibly
> by taking them to a hotel unaffected by the power loss.
> It's clear that even people with wood-burning stoves struggled without
> electricity.
control everything else, and without it such things as thermostatic
control is lost, so heating units may not function safely.
> Both the fibre modem and the BT router could be built with itegrated
> rechargeable batteries, just as are mobile phones.
> These would at least
> allow a few hours service, and in normal mains failure conditions would
> be sufficient.
>> I have yet to explore what things can be plugged into its USB socket
>> and be made available over the network.
>
> Probably nothing. It might function as a USB modem (like we used to
> have in the early days of dial-up).
--
Fake news kills!
I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk
Graham J
Dec 10, 2021, 11:10:22 AM12/10/21
to
Java Jive wrote:
[snip]
>> The fact that management did not acknowlege the severity of
>> the damage is likely to be an ongoing problem; it is part of the
>> curent political and business mindset.
>
> Yes, in some respects we seem to be slipping back into being a third
> class nation.
We are already there! Just think sleaze, political incompetence,
insularity (i.e. Brexit), etc...
>> I think it will be important for small remote communities to take
>> control of this themselves, by having (or knowing where to borrow at
>> short notice) suitable generators; and encouraging informal social
>> support so that elderly or disadvantaged neighbours are helped,
>> possibly by taking them to a hotel unaffected by the power loss.
>
> Who would pay the hotel fees?
A sensible question. Bad weather can affect anyone, anywhere, from time
to time. Either one pays the cost when affected, or one tries to
arrange insurance to cover such problems. In 2016 my garden and a
summerhouse were badly flooded in a thunderstorm, the like of which was
unheard of in living memory in the village. So I claimed for repair
work on my insurance. Of course, since then I have more than repaid the
insurance industry in increased premiums.
For the utilities such as the electricity supply business in Scotland
and the north of England, a sensible insurance provision would have been
to cut down the trees within falling distance of overhead supply cables,
and to have sufficient engineers and generators available on standby to
cope with storm damage. For them, it was a commercial decision not to
incur these costs. So they should now pay the hotel bills for old folk
who have to move to a hotel in order to survive.
There are less forseeable disasters (such as Covid-19), but the same
philosophy of preparedness would have helped. More research staff in
vaccine development, more PPE and distribution mechanisms for it, better
level of health in the population, better education of the population,
better level of technical understanding amongst those in government so
they understand the warnings from experts, etc.
All this costs more, so the more general answer is "all of us should pay
(the hotel fees), so the cost is borne by the population as a whole, in
the same way as we pay for our armed forces" .
--
Graham J
[snip]
>> The fact that management did not acknowlege the severity of
>> the damage is likely to be an ongoing problem; it is part of the
>> curent political and business mindset.
>
> Yes, in some respects we seem to be slipping back into being a third
> class nation.
insularity (i.e. Brexit), etc...
>> I think it will be important for small remote communities to take
>> control of this themselves, by having (or knowing where to borrow at
>> short notice) suitable generators; and encouraging informal social
>> support so that elderly or disadvantaged neighbours are helped,
>> possibly by taking them to a hotel unaffected by the power loss.
>
> Who would pay the hotel fees?
to time. Either one pays the cost when affected, or one tries to
arrange insurance to cover such problems. In 2016 my garden and a
summerhouse were badly flooded in a thunderstorm, the like of which was
unheard of in living memory in the village. So I claimed for repair
work on my insurance. Of course, since then I have more than repaid the
insurance industry in increased premiums.
For the utilities such as the electricity supply business in Scotland
and the north of England, a sensible insurance provision would have been
to cut down the trees within falling distance of overhead supply cables,
and to have sufficient engineers and generators available on standby to
cope with storm damage. For them, it was a commercial decision not to
incur these costs. So they should now pay the hotel bills for old folk
who have to move to a hotel in order to survive.
There are less forseeable disasters (such as Covid-19), but the same
philosophy of preparedness would have helped. More research staff in
vaccine development, more PPE and distribution mechanisms for it, better
level of health in the population, better education of the population,
better level of technical understanding amongst those in government so
they understand the warnings from experts, etc.
All this costs more, so the more general answer is "all of us should pay
(the hotel fees), so the cost is borne by the population as a whole, in
the same way as we pay for our armed forces" .
--
Graham J
Andy Burns
Dec 10, 2021, 2:54:50 PM12/10/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> My installation is complete and is non-standard.
In what way do you say it's non-standard?
> My installation is complete and is non-standard.
Andy Burns
Dec 10, 2021, 3:03:56 PM12/10/21
to
Graham J wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> What surprised me slightly is that the fibre drop line is a figure of 8 shape
>> and includes a copper line pair as well as the fibre.
>
> I wonder whether anybody can explain this?
Openreach bought umpty thousand kilometers of shotgun fibre+copper cable before
they decided whether or not they were ditching POTS?
>> I have yet to explore what things can be plugged into its USB socket and be
>> made available over the network.
memory stick or hard drive to share by SMB?
printer?
4G backup dongle? I wonder if BT offer their unbreakable/hybrid on FTTP, or
just on FTTC?
<https://www.bt.com/help/bt-halo/getting-set-up/setting-up-hybrid-connect>
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> What surprised me slightly is that the fibre drop line is a figure of 8 shape
>> and includes a copper line pair as well as the fibre.
>
> I wonder whether anybody can explain this?
they decided whether or not they were ditching POTS?
>> I have yet to explore what things can be plugged into its USB socket and be
>> made available over the network.
printer?
4G backup dongle? I wonder if BT offer their unbreakable/hybrid on FTTP, or
just on FTTC?
<https://www.bt.com/help/bt-halo/getting-set-up/setting-up-hybrid-connect>
Martin Brown
Dec 11, 2021, 4:23:28 AM12/11/21
to
two phone lines now to my property from *different* BT poles.
Standard installation both the fibre and the copper line pair are
terminated and connected up in the little grey outside box.
Fibre goes to the most convenient end of my house saving them from
running unnecessary extra fibre along roadside poles to where my old
copper circuit comes off a pole opposite the front of my house.
The poles themselves are problematic to work on being rather bent,
marked "do not climb" so requiring a cherry picker and having live mains
on bare conductors right at the top as well as the BT lines lower down.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Andy Burns
Dec 11, 2021, 5:39:15 AM12/11/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> In what way do you say it's non-standard?
>
> The copper pair on the fibre drop line is completely unused.
I don't have FTTP yet (and the exchanges of interest to me aren't even on a by
>
> The copper pair on the fibre drop line is completely unused.
2026 list yet) so not speaking from experience, but from people here, and
installations shown on websites/youtube, that seems normal, the copper exists
but isn't used.
> There are two phone
> lines now to my property from *different* BT poles.
Martin Brown
Dec 11, 2021, 8:43:34 AM12/11/21
to
On 11/12/2021 10:39, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> In what way do you say it's non-standard?
>>
>> The copper pair on the fibre drop line is completely unused.
>
> I don't have FTTP yet (and the exchanges of interest to me aren't even
> on a by 2026 list yet) so not speaking from experience, but from people
> here, and installations shown on websites/youtube, that seems normal,
> the copper exists but isn't used.
Don't assume that the exchange for FTTP will be the same as your present
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> In what way do you say it's non-standard?
>>
>> The copper pair on the fibre drop line is completely unused.
>
> I don't have FTTP yet (and the exchanges of interest to me aren't even
> on a by 2026 list yet) so not speaking from experience, but from people
> here, and installations shown on websites/youtube, that seems normal,
> the copper exists but isn't used.
POTS one. It isn't - my fibre line goes a heck of a long way back to my
county town. My tiny local exchange shows no FTTP offerings at all.
Something like 8 miles as the crow flies and nearer 12 as the roads or
cable runs are likely to go.
>> There are two phone lines now to my property from *different* BT poles.
>
> yes, that's unusual.
the same cable as the fibre. The cable itself was provisioned with that
possibility in mind. I was a bit surprised by this since I had expected
it to be a thinner lightweight fibre only cable.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Andy Burns
Dec 11, 2021, 8:46:35 AM12/11/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> Don't assume that the exchange for FTTP will be the same as your present POTS
> one. It isn't
I realise that, but they do tend to announce the FTTP areas by reference to the
> Don't assume that the exchange for FTTP will be the same as your present POTS
> one. It isn't
current POTS/ADSL exchanges.
Martin Brown
Dec 11, 2021, 9:05:03 AM12/11/21
to
The way I found out about it was by word of mouth - a neighbour had been
upgraded to it because BTOR could not get their copper line pair to work
at all and there were no spare copper pairs going back to the exchange.
I did eventually get an email from my ISP saying that full fat fibre was
here but it arrived after I had already committed to move to BT so that
I could retain my POTS landline. That option is only possible with BT.
Every other ISP's FTTP is a pure fibre internet only offering.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
MB
Dec 13, 2021, 11:02:41 AM12/13/21
to
On 18/11/2021 17:24, Martin Brown wrote:
> Unclear how two blokes up ladders could ever do it safely without a
> third man to stop the traffic on the road below whilst the cable is
> still on the ground.
Are they allowed to just have a third man to stop traffic, normally they
> Unclear how two blokes up ladders could ever do it safely without a
> third man to stop the traffic on the road below whilst the cable is
> still on the ground.
have to get a specialist company to do that nowadays.
MB
Dec 13, 2021, 11:10:45 AM12/13/21
to
On 10/12/2021 16:10, Graham J wrote:
> For the utilities such as the electricity supply business in Scotland
> and the north of England, a sensible insurance provision would have been
> to cut down the trees within falling distance of overhead supply cables,
> and to have sufficient engineers and generators available on standby to
> cope with storm damage.
I thought they did already?
> For the utilities such as the electricity supply business in Scotland
> and the north of England, a sensible insurance provision would have been
> to cut down the trees within falling distance of overhead supply cables,
> and to have sufficient engineers and generators available on standby to
> cope with storm damage.
You usually see a large number of generators in their yards and plenty
of firms hiring them out.
From some of the comments in the media, I think people think they
connect a generator to each user! You often see generators scattered
around the area feeding power lines when they are doing some major work.
And I think they do some cutting back of trees at the appropriate time
of the year, also they do aerial surveys of the power lines and that is
one of things probably being checked as well looking for faulty insulators.
Martin Brown
Dec 13, 2021, 11:15:27 AM12/13/21
to
the trenches for burying the cable ducts they had all manner of traffic
light controlled obstructions on the road. Not always in the right place
either - which made life very difficult for the farm shop!
Only two ways to get into the village and one of them is completely
blocked but it isn't the one that BT said would be blocked off!
I sympathise with them - the road is too narrow (no dotted line) to be
digging by the roadside with *any* traffic going past. Some of it is
true single track with something of a paucity of passing places.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
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