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Routers with USB3 port and SMB2 or (better) SMB3 - are there any?
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Chris Green
Aug 10, 2022, 10:18:04 AM8/10/22
to
I'm trying to reduce the number of 'always on' bits of hardware around
our (large) house and outbuildings. One way that I could do this is
by having a router which also provides some disk storage (located in
the garage for safer backups).
Speed of the disk storage isn't too critical as the backups will run
overnight, but USB3 would make sense.
I need at least SMB2, preferably SMB3 to be compatible with most
clients. This is the difficult bit, how do you find out what SMP
protocol a router provides on its USB interface?
Any recommendations (or opposites) would be very welcome.
--
Chris Green
·
our (large) house and outbuildings. One way that I could do this is
by having a router which also provides some disk storage (located in
the garage for safer backups).
Speed of the disk storage isn't too critical as the backups will run
overnight, but USB3 would make sense.
I need at least SMB2, preferably SMB3 to be compatible with most
clients. This is the difficult bit, how do you find out what SMP
protocol a router provides on its USB interface?
Any recommendations (or opposites) would be very welcome.
--
Chris Green
·
Theo
Aug 10, 2022, 3:42:25 PM8/10/22
to
Chris Green <c...@isbd.net> wrote:
> I'm trying to reduce the number of 'always on' bits of hardware around
> our (large) house and outbuildings. One way that I could do this is
> by having a router which also provides some disk storage (located in
> the garage for safer backups).
>
> Speed of the disk storage isn't too critical as the backups will run
> overnight, but USB3 would make sense.
>
> I need at least SMB2, preferably SMB3 to be compatible with most
> clients. This is the difficult bit, how do you find out what SMP
> protocol a router provides on its USB interface?
SMB1 is deprecated by Windows, and they make it very difficult to use - it
> I'm trying to reduce the number of 'always on' bits of hardware around
> our (large) house and outbuildings. One way that I could do this is
> by having a router which also provides some disk storage (located in
> the garage for safer backups).
>
> Speed of the disk storage isn't too critical as the backups will run
> overnight, but USB3 would make sense.
>
> I need at least SMB2, preferably SMB3 to be compatible with most
> clients. This is the difficult bit, how do you find out what SMP
> protocol a router provides on its USB interface?
has to be manually enabled, and it decides to turn itself off if not using
it regularly. I would expect no router on the market will be using that.
I'm not sure about SMB3.
Routers with USB 3 aren't super common. According to the OpenWRT database:
https://openwrt.org/toh/views/dataclouds
881 have no USB
642 have 1x USB 2.0
181 have 1x USB 3.0
and fewer have multiple ports (some of these aren't really 'routers', just
hardware that happens to be supported by OpenWRT)
Those lists may provide a starting point, but otherwise I'd look at either
NAS-style devices, or mini-PCs that have multiple network ports - running
something like OpenWRT or pfSense.
Will the router need to do wifi, or will its location in the garage mean
separate access point(s) are needed in the house?
Theo
Chris Green
Aug 10, 2022, 4:18:04 PM8/10/22
to
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Chris Green <c...@isbd.net> wrote:
> > I'm trying to reduce the number of 'always on' bits of hardware around
> > our (large) house and outbuildings. One way that I could do this is
> > by having a router which also provides some disk storage (located in
> > the garage for safer backups).
> >
> > Speed of the disk storage isn't too critical as the backups will run
> > overnight, but USB3 would make sense.
> >
> > I need at least SMB2, preferably SMB3 to be compatible with most
> > clients. This is the difficult bit, how do you find out what SMP
> > protocol a router provides on its USB interface?
>
> SMB1 is deprecated by Windows, and they make it very difficult to use - it
> has to be manually enabled, and it decides to turn itself off if not using
> it regularly. I would expect no router on the market will be using that.
> I'm not sure about SMB3.
>
Exactly, but you'd be surprised how many routers are still only SMB1!
> Chris Green <c...@isbd.net> wrote:
> > I'm trying to reduce the number of 'always on' bits of hardware around
> > our (large) house and outbuildings. One way that I could do this is
> > by having a router which also provides some disk storage (located in
> > the garage for safer backups).
> >
> > Speed of the disk storage isn't too critical as the backups will run
> > overnight, but USB3 would make sense.
> >
> > I need at least SMB2, preferably SMB3 to be compatible with most
> > clients. This is the difficult bit, how do you find out what SMP
> > protocol a router provides on its USB interface?
>
> SMB1 is deprecated by Windows, and they make it very difficult to use - it
> has to be manually enabled, and it decides to turn itself off if not using
> it regularly. I would expect no router on the market will be using that.
> I'm not sure about SMB3.
>
The issue is how to find out what SMB protocol a router supports,
they're not very forthcoming in the documentation I;ve looked at so far.
> Routers with USB 3 aren't super common. According to the OpenWRT database:
> https://openwrt.org/toh/views/dataclouds
> 881 have no USB
> 642 have 1x USB 2.0
> 181 have 1x USB 3.0
> and fewer have multiple ports (some of these aren't really 'routers', just
> hardware that happens to be supported by OpenWRT)
>
really matter too much,, just one is fine for my requirement.
> Those lists may provide a starting point, but otherwise I'd look at either
> NAS-style devices, or mini-PCs that have multiple network ports - running
> something like OpenWRT or pfSense.
>
next to it (and backups to a big external USB drive). The current
setup is similar except that the Pi has become a desktop run headless
which happens to be identical hardware to my actual (in my study)
desktop machine. It is a Fujitsi Esprimo which consumes only about 20
watts when idle so, until recently, power wasn't a big issue. It's
certainly much more reliable and glitch free than the Pi was. (Nothing
*very* wrong with the Pi but the USB interface did occasionally get
stuck).
> Will the router need to do wifi, or will its location in the garage mean
> separate access point(s) are needed in the house?
>
Esprimo + USB drive in garage, Cat5 cable from garage to cabin, WiFi
router in cabin as access point.
I'm thinking I can replace switch + esprimo + wifi router with just
a new router in the cabin. Connect the Cat5 'straight through' in the
garage with no (power consuming) hardware there at all.
Front runner(s) at the moment are Asus RT series routers such as the
RT-AC68U which can run Asuswrt-Merlin software. I can then run the
router as an NFS server on the network and I don't even have to manage
Samba/CIFS which would be a 'good thing' IMHO.
--
Chris Green
·
notya...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2022, 9:03:34 AM8/11/22
to
Even Draytek only has USB2 port(s).
Chris Green
Aug 11, 2022, 9:48:04 AM8/11/22
to
nothing supports any more.
--
Chris Green
·
NY
Aug 11, 2022, 10:23:56 AM8/11/22
to
"Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message
news:2tdfsi-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...
than normal, to allow it to access shares on either Windows 7 or else Samba
on Linux (I forget which it was for) and/or to allow those other OSes to
access Win 10 shares. Wireshark showed the connection being refused because
the two ends couldn't find a common level of SMB to talk, so it was a matter
of working out how I told Win10 to talk a lower level of SMB as an
alternative to its native level(s).
I don't have the exact details now. It was one of those changes that I found
my googling "why can't Win10 access shares on other PCs" and I made the
tweak and forgot how I did it. But at least I remember that I did it, so
I'll know to google again if I ever need to set up another Win10 PC.
It's scary that I can remember SMB2 being released. I was working on a
project in the 1990s to port "LAN Manager for UNIX" to ICL's servers
(especially non-Intel ones where byte-ordering was reversed) and the first
release of the software was SMB1 only, and the second release was SMB1 and
(preferably) SMB2. Sad that the product that we made money out of is now
free of charge as the Samba package on most flavours of Linux.
news:2tdfsi-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...
> Yes (re: Draytek) and even worse is that they run SMB protocol 1 which
> nothing supports any more.
I seem to remember having to tweak Windows 10 to use a lower level of SMB
> nothing supports any more.
than normal, to allow it to access shares on either Windows 7 or else Samba
on Linux (I forget which it was for) and/or to allow those other OSes to
access Win 10 shares. Wireshark showed the connection being refused because
the two ends couldn't find a common level of SMB to talk, so it was a matter
of working out how I told Win10 to talk a lower level of SMB as an
alternative to its native level(s).
I don't have the exact details now. It was one of those changes that I found
my googling "why can't Win10 access shares on other PCs" and I made the
tweak and forgot how I did it. But at least I remember that I did it, so
I'll know to google again if I ever need to set up another Win10 PC.
It's scary that I can remember SMB2 being released. I was working on a
project in the 1990s to port "LAN Manager for UNIX" to ICL's servers
(especially non-Intel ones where byte-ordering was reversed) and the first
release of the software was SMB1 only, and the second release was SMB1 and
(preferably) SMB2. Sad that the product that we made money out of is now
free of charge as the Samba package on most flavours of Linux.
Chris Green
Aug 11, 2022, 12:18:04 PM8/11/22
to
NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message
> news:2tdfsi-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...
> > Yes (re: Draytek) and even worse is that they run SMB protocol 1 which
> > nothing supports any more.
>
> I seem to remember having to tweak Windows 10 to use a lower level of SMB
> than normal, to allow it to access shares on either Windows 7 or else Samba
> on Linux (I forget which it was for) and/or to allow those other OSes to
> access Win 10 shares. Wireshark showed the connection being refused because
> the two ends couldn't find a common level of SMB to talk, so it was a matter
> of working out how I told Win10 to talk a lower level of SMB as an
> alternative to its native level(s).
>
Yes, but now there are bits being left out of standard kernels that
> "Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message
> news:2tdfsi-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...
> > Yes (re: Draytek) and even worse is that they run SMB protocol 1 which
> > nothing supports any more.
>
> I seem to remember having to tweak Windows 10 to use a lower level of SMB
> than normal, to allow it to access shares on either Windows 7 or else Samba
> on Linux (I forget which it was for) and/or to allow those other OSes to
> access Win 10 shares. Wireshark showed the connection being refused because
> the two ends couldn't find a common level of SMB to talk, so it was a matter
> of working out how I told Win10 to talk a lower level of SMB as an
> alternative to its native level(s).
>
mean you simply *can't* use SMB protocol 1 even if you relax the
limitations in the configuration. I just hit this issue when running
[x]ubuntu 22.04.
--
Chris Green
·
Theo
Aug 11, 2022, 2:25:25 PM8/11/22
to
Chris Green <c...@isbd.net> wrote:
> Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > Chris Green <c...@isbd.net> wrote:
> > > I'm trying to reduce the number of 'always on' bits of hardware around
> > > our (large) house and outbuildings. One way that I could do this is
> > > by having a router which also provides some disk storage (located in
> > > the garage for safer backups).
> > >
> > > Speed of the disk storage isn't too critical as the backups will run
> > > overnight, but USB3 would make sense.
> > >
> > > I need at least SMB2, preferably SMB3 to be compatible with most
> > > clients. This is the difficult bit, how do you find out what SMP
> > > protocol a router provides on its USB interface?
> >
> > SMB1 is deprecated by Windows, and they make it very difficult to use - it
> > has to be manually enabled, and it decides to turn itself off if not using
> > it regularly. I would expect no router on the market will be using that.
> > I'm not sure about SMB3.
> >
> Exactly, but you'd be surprised how many routers are still only SMB1!
Yikes, you're right. Seems a newish Vodafone/Technicolor router is shipping
> Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > Chris Green <c...@isbd.net> wrote:
> > > I'm trying to reduce the number of 'always on' bits of hardware around
> > > our (large) house and outbuildings. One way that I could do this is
> > > by having a router which also provides some disk storage (located in
> > > the garage for safer backups).
> > >
> > > Speed of the disk storage isn't too critical as the backups will run
> > > overnight, but USB3 would make sense.
> > >
> > > I need at least SMB2, preferably SMB3 to be compatible with most
> > > clients. This is the difficult bit, how do you find out what SMP
> > > protocol a router provides on its USB interface?
> >
> > SMB1 is deprecated by Windows, and they make it very difficult to use - it
> > has to be manually enabled, and it decides to turn itself off if not using
> > it regularly. I would expect no router on the market will be using that.
> > I'm not sure about SMB3.
> >
> Exactly, but you'd be surprised how many routers are still only SMB1!
with a version of Samba from 2009, dating from before SMB2. And looks like
SMB1 is not uncommon.
It seems that Microsoft removed network browsing from SMB2, so you have to
know the name of the server to connect to it. It's possible the router
manufacturers stuck with SMB1 for that reason. Unsurprisingly, that has
come home to bite them.
> The issue is how to find out what SMB protocol a router supports,
> they're not very forthcoming in the documentation I;ve looked at so far.
paying that little effort on security I'd be tempted to look for suitable
hardware and install a modern router OS. On that note, there are things like these:
https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2021/two-tiny-dual-gigabit-raspberry-pi-cm4-routers
but also OpenWRT has recommended routers:
https://openwrt.org/toh/recommended_routers
and others have opinions:
https://www.reddit.com/r/openwrt/comments/osfaiy/newest_and_best_router_for_openwrt_july_2021/
The BT Homehub 5a is cheap and can be bought with OpenWRT preinstalled -
search ebay for 'openwrt', eg:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/352249464565
If the DIY approach isn't for you, MikroTik and Ubiquiti might be worth
looking at as 'prosumer' router vendors, rather than the usual consumer
suspects.
> Yes. I was originally running a Raspberry Pi 4 with a network switch
> next to it (and backups to a big external USB drive). The current
> setup is similar except that the Pi has become a desktop run headless
> which happens to be identical hardware to my actual (in my study)
> desktop machine. It is a Fujitsi Esprimo which consumes only about 20
> watts when idle so, until recently, power wasn't a big issue. It's
> certainly much more reliable and glitch free than the Pi was. (Nothing
> *very* wrong with the Pi but the USB interface did occasionally get
> stuck).
https://linuxgizmos.com/raspberry-pi-cm4-carrier-has-five-sata-slots-and-four-gbe-ports/
https://www.crowdsupply.com/wiretrustee/wiretrustee-sata
https://pipci.jeffgeerling.com/boards_cm/cm4-nas-mebs-t.html
(and others where you can plug in a SATA PCIe card, like the CM4 devkit)
which generally affords more NAS reliability (and performance) than USB.
> Front runner(s) at the moment are Asus RT series routers such as the
> RT-AC68U which can run Asuswrt-Merlin software. I can then run the
> router as an NFS server on the network and I don't even have to manage
> Samba/CIFS which would be a 'good thing' IMHO.
fork) for about 10 years (first as primary router, now to bridge some
ethernet widgets to wifi) and it's been solid.
Theo
Bob Eager
Aug 11, 2022, 4:24:19 PM8/11/22
to
(which I've had a while) today. I noticed that it supports SMB1 and SMB2.
NY
Aug 12, 2022, 4:46:16 AM8/12/22
to
"Theo" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:bmu*Kj...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> It seems that Microsoft removed network browsing from SMB2, so you have to
> know the name of the server to connect to it. It's possible the router
> manufacturers stuck with SMB1 for that reason. Unsurprisingly, that has
> come home to bite them.
I wonder if that's why I've never managed to make a Linux computer access
SMB shares on a Windows PC. The converse works fine: Windows accessing Linux
shares (or Windows-Windows or Linux-Linux). It may be a problem with logging
on: I don't give my shares a password and therefore connect anonymously
without specifying a Windows username / password.
It's a shame that Linux doesn't seem to implement name-to-IP lookup as
thoroughly as Windows does, so a URL that points to a hostname of a local
computer on the LAN works fine if the web client is running on Windows, but
you need to specify the IP address if browsing from Linux, Android or iPad.
For this reason, I always configure my router to allocate fixed addresses to
any computers that run web servers for configuration by web (*). The shared
.json file of all Firefox's bookmarks that I use to update FF on all devices
periodically, has to refer to local computers by IP for this reason.
It's the difference between http://my_pc:9981/ and http://192.168.1.10:9981/
You'd think that any computer would use DNS to query the DNS server and
name/IP client table in the router, but it seems that either this doesn't
work with the various routers I've used or else browsing on non-Windows uses
NetBIOS or some other name service instead.
Some time I'll have to look on Wireshark and see what a Linux PC is doing
when you browse to a URL containing a local computername. Sometimes I have
been able to browse to a URL by name on Linux, which suggests that it is
using a local table which may or may not have been emptied and refilled
after a reboot, rather than always doing an explicit broadcast name query
"who has hostname ABC?".
(*) Address reservation: still use DHCP, but the router's DHCP server knows
*always* to give the same IP to a given MAC. Much less error-prone than
setting a static address at each relevant "server" computer: you can
temporarily move a computer to a different network and it will still work,
even if the fixed name-IP mapping is broken, whereas a static address might
be in the wrong subnet (or collide with the IP) on the temporary network.
news:bmu*Kj...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> It seems that Microsoft removed network browsing from SMB2, so you have to
> know the name of the server to connect to it. It's possible the router
> manufacturers stuck with SMB1 for that reason. Unsurprisingly, that has
> come home to bite them.
SMB shares on a Windows PC. The converse works fine: Windows accessing Linux
shares (or Windows-Windows or Linux-Linux). It may be a problem with logging
on: I don't give my shares a password and therefore connect anonymously
without specifying a Windows username / password.
It's a shame that Linux doesn't seem to implement name-to-IP lookup as
thoroughly as Windows does, so a URL that points to a hostname of a local
computer on the LAN works fine if the web client is running on Windows, but
you need to specify the IP address if browsing from Linux, Android or iPad.
For this reason, I always configure my router to allocate fixed addresses to
any computers that run web servers for configuration by web (*). The shared
.json file of all Firefox's bookmarks that I use to update FF on all devices
periodically, has to refer to local computers by IP for this reason.
It's the difference between http://my_pc:9981/ and http://192.168.1.10:9981/
You'd think that any computer would use DNS to query the DNS server and
name/IP client table in the router, but it seems that either this doesn't
work with the various routers I've used or else browsing on non-Windows uses
NetBIOS or some other name service instead.
Some time I'll have to look on Wireshark and see what a Linux PC is doing
when you browse to a URL containing a local computername. Sometimes I have
been able to browse to a URL by name on Linux, which suggests that it is
using a local table which may or may not have been emptied and refilled
after a reboot, rather than always doing an explicit broadcast name query
"who has hostname ABC?".
(*) Address reservation: still use DHCP, but the router's DHCP server knows
*always* to give the same IP to a given MAC. Much less error-prone than
setting a static address at each relevant "server" computer: you can
temporarily move a computer to a different network and it will still work,
even if the fixed name-IP mapping is broken, whereas a static address might
be in the wrong subnet (or collide with the IP) on the temporary network.
Java Jive
Aug 12, 2022, 9:58:52 AM8/12/22
to
On 12/08/2022 09:46, NY wrote:
>
> "Theo" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:bmu*Kj...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>
>> It seems that Microsoft removed network browsing from SMB2, so you
>> have to
>> know the name of the server to connect to it. It's possible the router
>> manufacturers stuck with SMB1 for that reason. Unsurprisingly, that has
>> come home to bite them.
>
> I wonder if that's why I've never managed to make a Linux computer
> access SMB shares on a Windows PC. The converse works fine: Windows
> accessing Linux shares (or Windows-Windows or Linux-Linux). It may be a
> problem with logging on: I don't give my shares a password and therefore
> connect anonymously without specifying a Windows username / password.
>
> It's a shame that Linux doesn't seem to implement name-to-IP lookup as
> thoroughly as Windows does, so a URL that points to a hostname of a
> local computer on the LAN works fine if the web client is running on
> Windows, but you need to specify the IP address if browsing from Linux,
> Android or iPad. For this reason, I always configure my router to
> allocate fixed addresses to any computers that run web servers for
> configuration by web (*). The shared ..json file of all Firefox's
>
> "Theo" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:bmu*Kj...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>
>> It seems that Microsoft removed network browsing from SMB2, so you
>> have to
>> know the name of the server to connect to it. It's possible the router
>> manufacturers stuck with SMB1 for that reason. Unsurprisingly, that has
>> come home to bite them.
>
> I wonder if that's why I've never managed to make a Linux computer
> access SMB shares on a Windows PC. The converse works fine: Windows
> accessing Linux shares (or Windows-Windows or Linux-Linux). It may be a
> problem with logging on: I don't give my shares a password and therefore
> connect anonymously without specifying a Windows username / password.
>
> It's a shame that Linux doesn't seem to implement name-to-IP lookup as
> thoroughly as Windows does, so a URL that points to a hostname of a
> local computer on the LAN works fine if the web client is running on
> Windows, but you need to specify the IP address if browsing from Linux,
> Android or iPad. For this reason, I always configure my router to
> allocate fixed addresses to any computers that run web servers for
> bookmarks that I use to update FF on all devices periodically, has to
> refer to local computers by IP for this reason.
>
> It's the difference between http://my_pc:9981/ and
> http://192.168.1.10:9981/
>
> You'd think that any computer would use DNS to query the DNS server and
> name/IP client table in the router, but it seems that either this
> doesn't work with the various routers I've used or else browsing on
> non-Windows uses NetBIOS or some other name service instead.
>
> Some time I'll have to look on Wireshark and see what a Linux PC is
> doing when you browse to a URL containing a local computername.
> Sometimes I have been able to browse to a URL by name on Linux, which
> suggests that it is using a local table which may or may not have been
> emptied and refilled after a reboot, rather than always doing an
> explicit broadcast name query "who has hostname ABC?".
>
> (*) Address reservation: still use DHCP, but the router's DHCP server
> knows *always* to give the same IP to a given MAC. Much less error-prone
> than setting a static address at each relevant "server" computer: you
> can temporarily move a computer to a different network and it will still
> work, even if the fixed name-IP mapping is broken, whereas a static
> address might be in the wrong subnet (or collide with the IP) on the
> temporary network.
Nearly all the above points have been addressed, separately or together,
> refer to local computers by IP for this reason.
>
> It's the difference between http://my_pc:9981/ and
> http://192.168.1.10:9981/
>
> You'd think that any computer would use DNS to query the DNS server and
> name/IP client table in the router, but it seems that either this
> doesn't work with the various routers I've used or else browsing on
> non-Windows uses NetBIOS or some other name service instead.
>
> Some time I'll have to look on Wireshark and see what a Linux PC is
> doing when you browse to a URL containing a local computername.
> Sometimes I have been able to browse to a URL by name on Linux, which
> suggests that it is using a local table which may or may not have been
> emptied and refilled after a reboot, rather than always doing an
> explicit broadcast name query "who has hostname ABC?".
>
> (*) Address reservation: still use DHCP, but the router's DHCP server
> knows *always* to give the same IP to a given MAC. Much less error-prone
> than setting a static address at each relevant "server" computer: you
> can temporarily move a computer to a different network and it will still
> work, even if the fixed name-IP mapping is broken, whereas a static
> address might be in the wrong subnet (or collide with the IP) on the
> temporary network.
in previous posts to ngs that you subscribe to.
First rule, disable Windows Homegroups, because like much of Windows
default networking, this arrangement has security issues. Instead, use
userid/password combinations to log on to shares on other machines.
To make the above choice as painless as possible, ensure that any user
that wants to login in to any PC and access a share on any other PC has
the same userid/password combinations on both PCs, and that both PCs are
in the same Workgroup.
That's about it for Windows to Windows sharing, but there are some
gotchas, especially if Microsoft Security Essentials is installed on a
Windows 7 or later PC, and its shares need to be accessible from a pre
W7 PC, or perhaps it's actually pre Vista, I'm not sure. A registry
tweak may then be needed.
I can give more detailed help on the above if required.
Windows <-> Linux is more complex, but basically similar rules apply.
You need to have Samba users on Linux PCs which have identical
userid/password combinations to those on the Windows PCs. Note that
that is Samba users, not just normal Linux users, and that potentially
that is three different places where a user has to remember
userid/password combinations, and the easiest way is to keep them all
the same.
That's the theory, but I find this doesn't work in Ubuntu, I still have
to sign in twice from its file manager to get to a Windows share, once
to gain access to the PC's list of shares, again to get into any
particular one. This seems to be some sort of maddening silly bug in
Ubuntu.
As far as DNS and computer name assignation and browsing goes, this
again has been covered many times ...
Most Windows PCs have something like "Enable NETBIOS over TCP/IP", or a
more modern default, enabled in their TCP/IP advanced settings. In an
average home situation, this means that the first PC to come up on the
LAN self-elects to become the Master Browser, and maintains a
translation list linking the names of PCs to their IPs. Thus name<->IP
translation can and does happen very effectively without any DNS, and in
such situations, local name resolution relies entirely on NETBIOS, while
WAN name resolution relies on DNS.
Linux PCs use a DNS client for both LAN & WAN, and, apart from
occasional distro specific problems, it usually works quite well.
However, unfortunately, many routers do not supply both LAN & WAN DNS
correctly. Often there are two choices in the configuration settings,
being a server or being a relay. If the former is chosen, the LAN has a
proper DNS service, but the WAN does not, while if the latter is chosen,
vice versa. The reason they have got away with this for so long is that
when the choice is of relay, LAN DNS is only seen to fail where there
Linux PCs, or increasingly nowadays with Linux based tablets and mobile
phones on it. If all you have on your LAN are Windows PCs, you will
never notice the lack of local DNS because its absence is covered by
NETBIOS.
To implement DNS as it should really be done on a router, where any name
not found on the LAN is passed upstream to a WAN DNS server so that both
are covered properly, it is often necessary to reflash the original
firmware with a replacement build from OpenWRT or DD-WRT, if such is
available.
--
Fake news kills!
I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk
Theo
Aug 12, 2022, 11:48:23 AM8/12/22
to
Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> To implement DNS as it should really be done on a router, where any name
> not found on the LAN is passed upstream to a WAN DNS server so that both
> are covered properly, it is often necessary to reflash the original
> firmware with a replacement build from OpenWRT or DD-WRT, if such is
> available.
There are typically two DNS systems going at once, which can confuse
> To implement DNS as it should really be done on a router, where any name
> not found on the LAN is passed upstream to a WAN DNS server so that both
> are covered properly, it is often necessary to reflash the original
> firmware with a replacement build from OpenWRT or DD-WRT, if such is
> available.
matters. One is DNS from the router. The other is multicast DNS, aka
Bonjour - this is a .local domain. The result is that a machine may have a
mapping in one or both. For example, there might be a domain of .home set
in the DNS settings in the router, so a machine called 'laptop' might be
laptop.home. But it may well have mDNS running and others could contact it
via 'laptop.local'. What can be confusing is if you don't specify a domain
and just say 'laptop', it depends on the DNS search path as to which one
gets chosen. Not all machines do mDNS so you may find the experience varies
from one to another.
mDNS is used for discovery of network names and printers (it's an Apple
thing), but not SMB shares to my knowledge (which are a Microsoft thing)
Theo
Tweed
Aug 12, 2022, 12:20:20 PM8/12/22
to
I ever came across it.
Theo
Aug 13, 2022, 5:05:46 AM8/13/22
to
Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
Print use it). Linux implemented it a long time ago (as Avahi). Windows
only started using it for hostnames in 2015. Some more on the Windows mess:
https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/windows-mdns-dnssd.html
Theo
> Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > mDNS is used for discovery of network names and printers (it's an Apple
> > thing), but not SMB shares to my knowledge (which are a Microsoft thing)
>
> > mDNS is used for discovery of network names and printers (it's an Apple
> > thing), but not SMB shares to my knowledge (which are a Microsoft thing)
>
> mDNS isn’t just an Apple thing. My RaspberryPi does it. It’s the first time
> I ever came across it.
It was popularised by Apple, primarily for finding printers (various Cloud
> I ever came across it.
Print use it). Linux implemented it a long time ago (as Avahi). Windows
only started using it for hostnames in 2015. Some more on the Windows mess:
https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/windows-mdns-dnssd.html
Theo
Tweed
Aug 13, 2022, 5:22:18 AM8/13/22
to
network administration book. I’m not sure my understanding has moved with
the times….
Java Jive
Aug 13, 2022, 1:48:45 PM8/13/22
to
On 13/08/2022 10:05, Theo wrote:
need for seemless inter-operability, even if the results, as you say,
are so far are something of a mess! As is also the article's repetition
of an oft-quoted error )-:
"NetBIOS Name Service (NBNS) (sometimes known as WINS)"
No it isn't! NETBIOS & WINS are two different things, I don't think
you'll find WINS anywhere much now, while NETBIOS, including its Naming
Service, is still very much part of Windows.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/networking/technologies/wins/wins-top
"Windows Internet Name Service (WINS) is a legacy computer name
registration and resolution service that maps computer NetBIOS names to
IP addresses.
If you do not already have WINS deployed on your network, do not deploy
WINS - instead, deploy Domain Name System (DNS)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBIOS
"NetBIOS (/ˈnɛtbaɪɒs/) is an acronym for Network Basic Input/Output
System. It provides services related to the session layer of the OSI
model allowing applications on separate computers to communicate over a
local area network. As strictly an API, NetBIOS is not a networking
protocol. Older operating systems[clarification needed] ran NetBIOS over
IEEE 802.2 and IPX/SPX using the NetBIOS Frames (NBF) and NetBIOS over
IPX/SPX (NBX) protocols, respectively. In modern networks, NetBIOS
normally runs over TCP/IP via the NetBIOS over TCP/IP (NBT) protocol.
This results in each computer in the network having both an IP address
and a NetBIOS name corresponding to a (possibly different) host name.
NetBIOS is also used for identifying system names in TCP/IP (Windows).
Simply saying, it is a protocol that allows communication of files and
printers through the Session Layer of the OSI Model in a
LAN.[clarification needed]"
If you right click My Computer, choose Manage, and look in the Services
section, you'll almost certainly find a service running called 'Computer
Browser', that is the service that performs NETBIOS naming.
>
> Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> mDNS isn’t just an Apple thing. My RaspberryPi does it. It’s the first time
>> I ever came across it.
>
> It was popularised by Apple, primarily for finding printers (various Cloud
> Print use it). Linux implemented it a long time ago (as Avahi). Windows
> only started using it for hostnames in 2015. Some more on the Windows mess:
>
> https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/windows-mdns-dnssd.html
Thanks for the link. At least Microsoft is at last waking up to the
> Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> mDNS isn’t just an Apple thing. My RaspberryPi does it. It’s the first time
>> I ever came across it.
>
> It was popularised by Apple, primarily for finding printers (various Cloud
> Print use it). Linux implemented it a long time ago (as Avahi). Windows
> only started using it for hostnames in 2015. Some more on the Windows mess:
>
> https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/windows-mdns-dnssd.html
need for seemless inter-operability, even if the results, as you say,
are so far are something of a mess! As is also the article's repetition
of an oft-quoted error )-:
"NetBIOS Name Service (NBNS) (sometimes known as WINS)"
No it isn't! NETBIOS & WINS are two different things, I don't think
you'll find WINS anywhere much now, while NETBIOS, including its Naming
Service, is still very much part of Windows.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/networking/technologies/wins/wins-top
"Windows Internet Name Service (WINS) is a legacy computer name
registration and resolution service that maps computer NetBIOS names to
IP addresses.
If you do not already have WINS deployed on your network, do not deploy
WINS - instead, deploy Domain Name System (DNS)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBIOS
"NetBIOS (/ˈnɛtbaɪɒs/) is an acronym for Network Basic Input/Output
System. It provides services related to the session layer of the OSI
model allowing applications on separate computers to communicate over a
local area network. As strictly an API, NetBIOS is not a networking
protocol. Older operating systems[clarification needed] ran NetBIOS over
IEEE 802.2 and IPX/SPX using the NetBIOS Frames (NBF) and NetBIOS over
IPX/SPX (NBX) protocols, respectively. In modern networks, NetBIOS
normally runs over TCP/IP via the NetBIOS over TCP/IP (NBT) protocol.
This results in each computer in the network having both an IP address
and a NetBIOS name corresponding to a (possibly different) host name.
NetBIOS is also used for identifying system names in TCP/IP (Windows).
Simply saying, it is a protocol that allows communication of files and
printers through the Session Layer of the OSI Model in a
LAN.[clarification needed]"
If you right click My Computer, choose Manage, and look in the Services
section, you'll almost certainly find a service running called 'Computer
Browser', that is the service that performs NETBIOS naming.
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