Question to those of FTTP

[Tweed]

I wonder if anyone on FTTP is willing to try this experiment: how long does
the system take to become ready from power up? In other words, remove power
to ONT and router, leave for a few minutes for any higher level protocol
connections to time out, and then reapply power to both and time to when
tcp/ip traffic can flow normally again.

So why? Well there’s all this talk of how to make a phone call in an
emergency during a power cut. To my mind, even if you have battery backup
you don’t want those batteries connected until you want to make that call,
so you need a battery pack with a button to turn it on and then perhaps
some sort of count down timer led that indicates when the system might be
ready. So I’m curious as to how long you might need to wait.

[Tweed]

Title should read *on* FTTP

[Chris]

Any reason why it would be different to FTTC? My FTTC router takes about 2
minutes.

[Andy Burns]

Tweed wrote:

> how long does the system take to become ready from power up?

This install is now considered an "older" type since it

* comes with a BBU (battery backup unit)
* doesn't use VoIP socket
* doesn't have a fibre demarc box

but the video shows him disconnecting the fibre, seems about 2-3 seconds to
re-connect, maybe would be a bit slower if the ONT is powered off?

<https://youtu.be/1-6LKAPlEyk?t=521>

[Malcolm Loades]

On 21/12/2021 08:48, Tweed wrote:
> So why? Well there’s all this talk of how to make a phone call in an
> emergency during a power cut. To my mind, even if you have battery backup
> you don’t want those batteries connected until you want to make that call,
> so you need a battery pack with a button to turn it on and then perhaps
> some sort of count down timer led that indicates when the system might be
> ready. So I’m curious as to how long you might need to wait.

Surely the point of battery backup is to prevent *any* break in service?
My battery backup trips in automatically on a power outage and will
keep the router, PC and screen running without interruption for around
30 minutes. Switching off the PC and screen will increase that time
considerably. However, there will come a point where the battery backup
runs out of power. The question is what then?

Plus you need to have a corded phone plugged in or available. Any
cordless phone will be out of action during a power cut.

Malcolm

[Andy Burns]

Malcolm Loades wrote:

> Surely the point of battery backup is to prevent *any* break in service?  My
> battery backup trips in automatically on a power outage and will keep the
> router, PC and screen running without interruption for around 30 minutes.

So if it's storm damage, presumably you'd turn the UPS off to give you some
power later in case you need to make emergency contact? What if the power cut
happened while you were away/asleep?

[Graham J]

Ordinarily, yes, you are right.

But in the context of an outage that lasts for several days (as with the
recent storm Arwen), you would like to power up the phone to make a
call, then power off until the next time you want to make a call. So if
it takes 10 minutes to establish an internet connection, then you would
have to budget only 3 separate short calls with your available 30 minute
backup.

Clearly, if you have a generator available, and an adequate supply of
fuel, your 30 minutes gives you time to find the generator, fuel it, and
start it.


--
Graham J

[Tweed]

I was thinking of a consumer grade device that might sit between the wall
wart(s) and the router and ONT. I’d design it with two batteries, one that
cut in instantly and ran until flat. This would probably bridge most power
cuts. I’d have a second battery that was float charged but only connected
after manual intervention. Consider it to be a sort of reserve fuel tank.
Hence my query on how long everything took to get going again. I’m
expecting it to be faster than FTTC, as that has to go through a line
probing routine on boot. My guess is the router will be the slowest bit of
the chain.

I’m also expecting all consumer routers to have an inbuilt DECT base
station by the time FTTP becomes widespread. DECT handsets can be
maintained by using dry batteries if needed. Most take AAA cells. You’d
hope that routers might also come with analogue phone ports for a corded
handset.

Then it’s a matter of public education of what to do in the event if a
power failure.

[Andy Burns]

Tweed wrote:

> You’d hope that routers might also come with analogue phone ports for a
> corded handset.

By 2025 (earlier for some) I expect that'll be true, but inbuilt DECT everywhere
sounds a bit wishful thinking, whether WiFi will take over from DECT is another
question ... I presume this is an example of such a phone?

<https://amazon.co.uk/BT-Digital-Home-Phone/dp/B08MZ383CG>

<https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice--how-do-i-set-up-my-service->

That also mentions a digital voice adapter, is it wifi, or some BT proprietary
radio connection?

[Tweed]

My understanding is the latest BT home hubs have DECT. I think I did spend
some time looking at the BT digital home phone’s spec a while ago. The only
give away that it was DECT was the frequency band mentioned in the small
print of the specifications.

[Martin Brown]

On 21/12/2021 08:48, Tweed wrote:

> I wonder if anyone on FTTP is willing to try this experiment: how long does
> the system take to become ready from power up? In other words, remove power
> to ONT and router, leave for a few minutes for any higher level protocol
> connections to time out, and then reapply power to both and time to when
> tcp/ip traffic can flow normally again.

About 30s from power being restored give or take. The optical modem
might even be quicker than that. However, my faith in the local kit is
such that I insist in retaining my old copper line pair for as long as
is possible. They really do continue to work a long time in a powercut.

De facto I have done the experiment during a real powercut and the
internet came back *very* soon after power was restored - on a timescale
rough;y comparable with booting up a laptop PC. That is there was
internet routing available from the moment that the PC had booted up and
was ready to use. I don't see this as surprising.

> So why? Well there’s all this talk of how to make a phone call in an
> emergency during a power cut. To my mind, even if you have battery backup
> you don’t want those batteries connected until you want to make that call,
> so you need a battery pack with a button to turn it on and then perhaps
> some sort of count down timer led that indicates when the system might be
> ready. So I’m curious as to how long you might need to wait.

Not very long at all. The optical link comes up first and the router
takes more time ~1-2min to self test and reboot issue DHCP and so on.

Some routers are very much slower than others.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 21/12/2021 09:41, Andy Burns wrote:
> Malcolm Loades wrote:
>
>> Surely the point of battery backup is to prevent *any* break in
>> service?  My battery backup trips in automatically on a power outage
>> and will keep the router, PC and screen running without interruption
>> for around 30 minutes.

Battery backup can also be used to allow you to use a service on and off
in such a way that you conserve power unless you need to do something.

>
> So if it's storm damage, presumably you'd turn the UPS off to give you
> some power later in case you need to make emergency contact?  What if
> the power cut happened while you were away/asleep?

That is exactly how mine failed.

It did its job OK shutting the PC down gracefully without loss of data
before it ran out of juice. Likewise the emergency lights lit up the
kitchen and dining room between 0300 and 0530 when they ran out.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 21/12/2021 10:18, Graham J wrote:
> Malcolm Loades wrote:
>> On 21/12/2021 08:48, Tweed wrote:
>>> So why? Well there’s all this talk of how to make a phone call in an
>>> emergency during a power cut. To my mind, even if you have battery
>>> backup
>>> you don’t want those batteries connected until you want to make that
>>> call,
>>> so you need a battery pack with a button to turn it on and then perhaps
>>> some sort of count down timer led that indicates when the system
>>> might be
>>> ready. So I’m curious as to how long you might need to wait.
>>
>> Surely the point of battery backup is to prevent *any* break in
>> service?   My battery backup trips in automatically on a power outage
>> and will keep the router, PC and screen running without interruption
>> for around 30 minutes.  Switching off the PC and screen will increase
>> that time considerably.  However, there will come a point where the
>> battery backup runs out of power.  The question is what then?
>>
>> Plus you need to have a corded phone plugged in or available.  Any
>> cordless phone will be out of action during a power cut.
>
> Ordinarily, yes, you are right.
>
> But in the context of an outage that lasts for several days (as with the
> recent storm Arwen), you would like to power up the phone to make a
> call, then power off until the next time you want to make a call.  So if

Indeed or like me make sure you still have parallel copper line pair
with your FTTP - a feature *only* available from BT.

> it takes 10 minutes to establish an internet connection, then you would
> have to budget only 3 separate short calls with your available 30 minute
> backup.

The time for it to boot is no different to any other router. The optical
modem seems to establish a data link well before the router is ready to
do anything with it. So about 2 minutes to being oven ready.

My BT router which for now I am still using out of laziness is exactly
the same as the one that they give to FTTC and ADSL2+ customers except
that the ADSL signal input is unused and the WAN input is used -
reducing the number of 1G internet ports available to 3.

> Clearly, if you have a generator available, and an adequate supply of
> fuel, your 30 minutes gives you time to find the generator, fuel it, and
> start it.

The main consideration I found was pay great attention to mobile phones
- don't let them go flat trying to contact remote base stations. We were
unable to resurrect my wife's mobile phone from flat by charging it in
the car - it simply refused to accept enough charge to play ball.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[notya...@gmail.com]

As I would expect, unlike FTTC there is no need for the lengthy negotiations to find the best rate and other parameters, even on tens of kilometers of fibre it should work full speed more or less immediately.

How long does it take a mobile phone to establish a 3/4G connection? A few seconds?

Talking of which a charged up mobile phone is probably a better bet. If cells are out connection can still be made from base stations further away (up to ~35km) - relatively easy matter to get a SIM for each net, or a CI / IoM one which will roam onto any.

[Tweed]

Your FTTP with a copper pair is an interim solution. You may find the
copper stops working (with due notice) one day.

[Tweed]

notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 at 09:09:13 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Tweed wrote:
>>
>>> how long does the system take to become ready from power up?
>> This install is now considered an "older" type since it
>>
>> * comes with a BBU (battery backup unit)
>> * doesn't use VoIP socket
>> * doesn't have a fibre demarc box
>>
>> but the video shows him disconnecting the fibre, seems about 2-3 seconds to
>> re-connect, maybe would be a bit slower if the ONT is powered off?
>>

>> <https://youtu.be/1-6LKAPlEyk?tR1>

>
> As I would expect, unlike FTTC there is no need for the lengthy
> negotiations to find the best rate and other parameters, even on tens of
> kilometers of fibre it should work full speed more or less immediately.
>
> How long does it take a mobile phone to establish a 3/4G connection? A few seconds?
>
> Talking of which a charged up mobile phone is probably a better bet. If
> cells are out connection can still be made from base stations further
> away (up to ~35km) - relatively easy matter to get a SIM for each net, or
> a CI / IoM one which will roam onto any.
>

You’ll only get your 35km if someone decides to adjust the antenna
radiation pattern. Cell sites have deliberately curtailed coverage to allow
for spectrum reuse. Only ones in sparsely populated rural areas will have
long distance coverage.

[Martin Brown]

On 21/12/2021 14:14, Tweed wrote:
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Indeed or like me make sure you still have parallel copper line pair
>> with your FTTP - a feature *only* available from BT.
>>

[snip]

>>
>> The main consideration I found was pay great attention to mobile phones
>> - don't let them go flat trying to contact remote base stations. We were
>> unable to resurrect my wife's mobile phone from flat by charging it in
>> the car - it simply refused to accept enough charge to play ball.
>>
>
> Your FTTP with a copper pair is an interim solution. You may find the
> copper stops working (with due notice) one day.

I know, but I intend to put the evil day off for as long as possible.

FTTP is wonderful for fast internet but far too dependent on mains power
(although I think I will be configuring mine to run off a lead acid
accumulator since I have several of them charged up for my telescopes).

Main problem in the middle of a long power cut is that soldering irons
don't work either so knocking up a quick DC PSU is impossible.

Mobile masts don't last all that long without mains but some lasted
longer than I had expected but at lower TX power (thus draining the
phone of charge even faster than normal). Borderline not spot here.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 21/12/2021 14:35, Tweed wrote:
> notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 at 09:09:13 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>>> how long does the system take to become ready from power up?
>>> This install is now considered an "older" type since it
>>>
>>> * comes with a BBU (battery backup unit)
>>> * doesn't use VoIP socket
>>> * doesn't have a fibre demarc box
>>>
>>> but the video shows him disconnecting the fibre, seems about 2-3 seconds to
>>> re-connect, maybe would be a bit slower if the ONT is powered off?
>>>
>>> <https://youtu.be/1-6LKAPlEyk?tR1>
>>
>> As I would expect, unlike FTTC there is no need for the lengthy
>> negotiations to find the best rate and other parameters, even on tens of
>> kilometers of fibre it should work full speed more or less immediately.

According the the engineer who did mine it tunes the line over the first
few hours and then there is essentially no further adjustment. They do a
quick power level check with a portable photometer to check the
brightness is acceptable. Too bright is every bit as bad as too dim.

>> How long does it take a mobile phone to establish a 3/4G connection? A few seconds?
>>
>> Talking of which a charged up mobile phone is probably a better bet. If
>> cells are out connection can still be made from base stations further
>> away (up to ~35km) - relatively easy matter to get a SIM for each net, or
>> a CI / IoM one which will roam onto any.
>>
>
> You’ll only get your 35km if someone decides to adjust the antenna
> radiation pattern. Cell sites have deliberately curtailed coverage to allow
> for spectrum reuse. Only ones in sparsely populated rural areas will have
> long distance coverage.

Even then it is somewhat patchy and hammers the phone battery since
indoors during a power cut it is essentially a no signal zone once your
local mast stops transmitting. Setting airplane mode helps preserve
battery life at the expense of potentially missing update txts.

Powergrids status updates were so inaccurate and useless that it didn't
matter :(

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Graham J]

Martin Brown wrote:

[snip]

>
> FTTP is wonderful for fast internet but far too dependent on mains power
> (although I think I will be configuring mine to run off a lead acid
> accumulator since I have several of them charged up for my telescopes).
>
> Main problem in the middle of a long power cut is that soldering irons
> don't work either so knocking up a quick DC PSU is impossible.

Set up your router etc to run off the 12v lead acid battery and keep it
float charged off the mains. Also prepare a charging lead so you can
float charge it off your car when there's a storm problem.

Come the day, electric cars should be able to provide both 240vac (as a
short term store for the grid) and 12vdc (as an emergency supply) - as
standard.


--
Graham J

[Martin Brown]

On 21/12/2021 15:53, Graham J wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>
>> FTTP is wonderful for fast internet but far too dependent on mains
>> power (although I think I will be configuring mine to run off a lead
>> acid accumulator since I have several of them charged up for my
>> telescopes).
>>
>> Main problem in the middle of a long power cut is that soldering irons
>> don't work either so knocking up a quick DC PSU is impossible.
>
> Set up your router etc to run off the 12v lead acid battery and keep it
> float charged off the mains.  Also prepare a charging lead so you can
> float charge it off your car when there's a storm problem.

Its OK up to the point that the UPS gives out - at which point I don't
really care. It is a medium term thing for me to have the internet live
even during a power cut (or at least see if it is feasible depending on
how wide an area is down). No good this last time as was USP dead in the
water by the time I even knew we had a power cut.

The mess that Northern Powergrid made I think I need to prepare for
third world standards of electricity supply in the North of England :(
Heads *should* roll over that fiasco but I bet they do not.

>
> Come the day, electric cars should be able to provide both 240vac (as a
> short term store for the grid) and 12vdc (as an emergency supply) - as
> standard.

I think they are rather hefty DC power supply configurations so the
house would need extra bits to make the cars charger run in reverse. It
could probably be done using parked cars to buffer daytime mains demand.

Might annoy the eCar owner somewhat if they are not left with enough
juice to drive home in the evening though.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Tweed]

You can get gas powered (butane) powered soldering irons. Lidl are
currently selling one that works off their range of drill battery packs.

[Graham J]

Martin Brown wrote:

[snip]

> Might annoy the eCar owner somewhat if they are not left with enough
> juice to drive home in the evening though.

With a little bit of clever software in the car charging function this
could be managed quite easily. An ideal application for some simple AI.

A problem might arise if the driver wants to drive to the other end of
the country after work, but even then if that is planned in advance the
user can tell the software to provide maximum capacity ready for the
start of the journey.


--
Graham J

[Bob Eager]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 15:36:12 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

> Main problem in the middle of a long power cut is that soldering irons
> don't work either so knocking up a quick DC PSU is impossible.

https://www.halfords.com/tools/garage-workshop/welding-and-metal-work/
draper-gas-soldering-iron-193169.html

[Plusnet Support Team]

On 21/12/2021 08:48, Tweed wrote:

I have a slightly older ONT that has an integrated battery back-up unit.
From experience this provides uninterrupted power to the ONT for at
least an hour or so in the event of a power cut.

My router is powered by a second unit that is permanently connected to
the mains i.e. mains > BBU > router. This lasts for hours.

If power was completely cut to both, then I'm fairly certain the lowest
denominator would be the time it takes for the router to boot/initialise
and reconnect to the ISP equipment. This is typically the same amount of
time it would take for an FTTC/ADSL line, excepting the time it takes to
'sync' with the DSLAM (not a consideration for FTTP).

In short: a couple of minutes'ish.

--
|Bob Pullen Broadband Solutions for
|Support Home & Business @
|Plusnet Plc. www.plus.net
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