BT Broadband fault

[MB]

Nice to have been able to report the fault to a real human again and a
British human as well!

[Recliner]

MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
> Nice to have been able to report the fault to a real human again and a
> British human as well!
>

In my BTinternet days (now fortunately over), I found the Geordie support
people were the best. They knew their stuff, no tedious script to plough
through, and they got things done.

[NY]

"Recliner" <recline...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t9cjs4$j935$3...@dont-email.me...

What makes a good support person is someone who listens to what you've
already tried, what doesn't work - and what *does* still work, which is just
as useful in diagnosing a fault, and who then gets you to perform specific
tests that are tailored to how you've briefed the support person, without
taking you through steps which you've already done before you even called
for help.

Sadly Indian support centres tend to work very much off a script, and they
have to go through every step in turn: they don't seem to have the ability
(or maybe aren't given the authority) to circumvent certain bits "ah, you've
already told me that X works, so I don't need you to do these tests". The
other problem I find with many Indian call centres is the excessive, almost
obsequious and cringing politeness - "would you be so good as to do this
test, if that is OK with you, and then tell me what happens". It gets a bit
tedious after a while!

Sometimes you get an exceptionally good Indian support centre. I rang a
printer manufacturer about problems getting a printer driver to work. The
woman had a very strong accent and spoke rather too fast, but once I'd got
used to her voice, I realised that she knew her stuff and she certainly
listened and adapted her script to what I was telling her.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 18:07:15 +0100, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>What makes a good support person is someone who listens to what you've
>already tried, what doesn't work - and what *does* still work, which is just
>as useful in diagnosing a fault, and who then gets you to perform specific
>tests that are tailored to how you've briefed the support person, without
>taking you through steps which you've already done before you even called
>for help.

I've worked in tech support. Sometimes customers will say they've done
something when as it later becomes clear, they haven't. Sometimes
they'll have checked something but misinterpreted the result. It's not
always easy to judge their technical ability and understanding so as
to form a workable estimate of what the current nature of the problem
actually is. A very common piece of "reasoning" often presented to me
was that it couldn't possibly be anything to do with their equipment
because it was brand new, or it was working only yesterday, or their
brother works in IT and says it's OK, or some other non sequitur. By
all means listen to what they have to say and form the best judgement
that you can, but one way or another you have to go through all the
logic from first principles because if you miss something essential,
the rest can be a waste of time.

Rod.

[Theo]

+1. Sometimes 'it doesn't work' isn't sufficient information: you want to
know in what way it doesn't work. For example asking the user to do
something that you know will fail, because you want to see what the error
message is. You're building up a picture of the situation based on the
evidence available, rather than filtered through the user's interpretation
of the situation.

There is also a strong effect of the case where explaining your bug to
somebody else is the best way to find it: halfway through going through the
motions the lightbulb moment happens and you understand what the problem was
all along. You're following the support agent's script and suddenly you
notice 'oh that's funny...' and realise what's going on. Possibly followed
by 'I'm sure I ... before'.

That said, there's no excuse for scripts like this:

"Hello, my router's on fire"
"OK, can you see the WAN light? Is it off, solid or flashing?"
"It's flickering, because it's on fire"
"OK, a flashing WAN light could be a problem with your network cable.
Have you tried replacing it?"
"No *because it's on fire*"
etc etc

Theo

[NY]

"Theo" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:1Dz*Sp...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...

> That said, there's no excuse for scripts like this:
>
> "Hello, my router's on fire"
> "OK, can you see the WAN light? Is it off, solid or flashing?"
> "It's flickering, because it's on fire"
> "OK, a flashing WAN light could be a problem with your network cable.
> Have you tried replacing it?"
> "No *because it's on fire*"
> etc etc

And conversely, for user stupidity like:

"My internet is not working"

"Can you go to a PC and run "ping 192.168.1.1" [I've left out details of
starting a Command Prompt]"

"There's no image on the screen"

"Can you look at the cable on the back of the PC"

"It's very dark. I'll need to get a torch because there's a power cut."

[support guy tries to say tactfully that maybe *that* is why "the internet"
isn't working - because there's no power to the router]



I can see both sides of the story: I've been the person phoning for help and
I've been the person providing phone support (eg to my parents). I think the
main thing that a "customer" needs to remember is that the support person
cannot see your screen (unless he's using Teamviewer or VNC!), so the
customer needs to keep up a running commentary: "OK, I've typed "ping
192.168.1.1. It's saying 'no response'. Ah, there were several of those, and
one 'Reply from...'"

And you need to have the patience of a saint. A simple task like running
ping or nslookup means talking them through how to open a Command Prompt
window. And then there's all the hassle of looking at the various lights on
a router, and describing what the various icons alongside those lights look
like (words are so much easier to describe over the phone than icons, but
you never get words accompanying the icons).

When I phone support, I anticipate what the support person will probably
need, so I have the router make/model to hand, and I've looked at the
various lights to note which are on/off/flickering. And I tell the person,
effectively, "I'm reasonably experienced, so you can say "ping the router"
without needing to guide me through it step by step. If I need more details,
I'll ask" - because gauging the customer's level of experience at the
beginning of the call is important.

[Andy Burns]

Roderick Stewart wrote:

> I've worked in tech support. Sometimes customers will say they've done
> something when as it later becomes clear, they haven't.

Because they've been asked to do something pointless, which based on information
they've given, would be obvious couldn't possibly have any effect ...

[Java Jive]

On 28/06/2022 11:55, NY wrote:
> "Theo" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:1Dz*Sp...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>
>> That said, there's no excuse for scripts like this:
>>
>> "Hello, my router's on fire"
>> "OK, can you see the WAN light?  Is it off, solid or flashing?"
>> "It's flickering, because it's on fire"
>> "OK, a flashing WAN light could be a problem with your network cable.
>> Have you tried replacing it?"
>> "No *because it's on fire*"
>> etc etc
>
> And conversely, for user stupidity like:
>
> "My internet is not working"
>
> "Can you go to a PC and run "ping 192.168.1.1" [I've left out details of
> starting a Command Prompt]"
>
> "There's no image on the screen"
>
> "Can you look at the cable on the back of the PC"
>
> "It's very dark. I'll need to get a torch because there's a power cut."
>
> [support guy tries to say tactfully that maybe *that* is why "the
> internet" isn't working - because there's no power to the router]

The version of that story that I heard was as follows:

Wordperfect Helpline

A true story from the WordPerfect Helpline. Needless to say the
HelpDesk employee was fired; however, he/she is currently suing Corel
(the WordPerfect organization) for 'Termination without Cause'!

Q "Ridge Hall computer assistant; may I help you?"

A "Yes, well, I'm having trouble with WordPerfect."

Q "What sort of trouble?"

A "Well, I was just typing along, and all of a sudden the words went away."

Q "Went away?"

A "They disappeared."

Q "Hmm. So what does your screen look like now?"

A "Nothing."

Q "Nothing?"

A "It's blank; it won't accept anything when I type."

Q "Are you still in WordPerfect, or did you get out?"

A "How do I tell?"

Q "Can you see the C: prompt on the screen?"

A "What's a C: prompt?"

Q "Never mind. Can you move the cursor around on the screen?"

A "There isn't any cursor: I told you, it won't accept anything I type."

Q "Does your monitor have a power indicator?"

A "What's a monitor?"

Q "It's the thing with the screen on it that looks like a TV. Does it
have a little light that tells you when it's on?"

A "I don't know."

Q "Well, then look on the back of the monitor and find where the power
chord goes into it. Can you see that?"

A "Yes, I think so."

Q "Great. Follow the cord to the plug, and tell me if it's plugged into
the wall."

A "Yes, it is."

Q "When you were behind the monitor, did you notice that there were two
cables plugged into the back of it, not just one?"

A "No."

Q "Well, there are ---- I need you to look back there again and find the
other cable."

A "Okay, here it is."

Q "Follow it for me, and tell me if it's plugged securely into the back
of your computer."

A "I can't reach."

Q "Uh huh. Well, can you see if it is?"

A "No."

Q "Even if you maybe put your knee on something and lean way over?"

A "Oh, it's not because I don't have the right angle -- it's because
it's dark."

Q "Dark?"

A "Yes - the office light is off, and the only light I have is coming in
from the window."

Q "Well, turn on the office light then."

A "I can't!"

Q "No? Why not?"

A "Because there's a power outage."

Q "A power . . . A power outage? Aha, Okay, we've got it licked now.
Do you still have the boxes and manuals and packing stuff your computer
came in?"

A "Well, yes, I keep them in the closet."

Q "Good. Go get them, and unplug your system and pack it up just like
it was when you got it. Then take it back to the store you bought it from."

A "Really? Is it that bad?"

Q "Yes, I'm afraid it is."

A "Well, all right then, I suppose. What do I tell them?"

Q "Tell them you're too stupid to own a computer."

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[Wilf]

A real classic!

--
Wilf

[Jeff Layman]

From <https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/word-imperfect/>:

"Ah, but was this a true story? Well, sort of, but not quite — the
“true” stuff ended with the tech’s discovering that he was dealing with
a user who was attempting to access a computer during a power outage.
Everything from that point on is what he wished he could have said but
wisely kept to himself.

Here’s a quote from the tech’s original post to alt.shenanigans which
picks up the story just after his clueless user tells him there’s a
power outage:

This woman was good friends with my supervisor, who was also a French
professor (still is, matter of fact—and in addition, she’s now also my
wife), so I couldn’t deal with her the way I really wanted to, and was
forced to explain sweetly and gently to her that computers needed power
just like office lights, and if the office lights were out, then the
computer was too, and that yes, if she hadn’t saved her work she had
probably lost everything she’d done so far in WordPerfect. But I could
still fantasize:

[The tech goes on to describe what he felt he should have said,
culminating in the now infamous “Too stupid to own a computer” line.]

Credit must be given to this man, both for sharing this wonderful story
with the online world and for making a strong effort to sharply define
where the real call left off and where his fantasized response began. It
was certainly not his fault the complete exchange — reality melded with
fantasy — are now bruited about as “a real tech call handled by
Microsoft.” His actual response was a model of exemplary customer
support, even as he let his very justifiable imaginings run riot. "

It's /still/ a good story, though!

--

Jeff

[Roderick Stewart]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 13:34:33 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

To solve a technical problem you cannot see, in equipment you cannot
touch, with the help of a stranger who might or might not have a clue,
the only thing you can do is ask questions. You've got no idea what
their level of technical knowledge is, they might not understand your
descriptions and you might not understand theirs.

When I had to do this, the phrase "the blind leading the blind" would
often pop into my head, even if it wasn't one of the occasional ones
that actually was blind. Or deaf. Seriously. Deaf customers could call
a special contact centre using a typing gadget of some sort where
translators would call us and relay everything that was said. Internet
users can be deaf, blind, ignorant, foreign, angry, in a hurry, in
tears, or just plain stupid, but if they're customers they're entitled
to help and we did the best we could for all of them.

Can you give an example of something a tech support agent on the
phone, knowing nothing about the customer, and unable to see their
computer or internet equipment or what the customer is doing, would be
likely to ask, that would be pointless?

Try solving your next computer or internet problem while blindfolded
and let us know how you get on.

Rod.

[Theo]

Sometimes you're asked to do pointless things, to confirm they are in fact
pointless. If they happen to work they might radically change the view of
the problem. Or maybe they just want to know what the error message is.

Although there was a time in the 2000s where the mantra was 'we only support
Windows' and so when calling up you had to return the answers that Windows
XP would have given you, if only for the fact that you had no Windows box
and were actually running Linux. Then you had to run a 'virtual Windows' in
your head, remembering what the answers to 'ipconfig /all' and poking around
in Device Manager were supposed to be.

Theo

[NY]

"Wilf" <wi...@postingx.uk> wrote in message
news:t9f8io$14fhg$1...@dont-email.me...

>> The version of that story that I heard was as follows:
>>
>> Wordperfect Helpline
>>
>> A true story from the WordPerfect Helpline. Needless to say the
>> HelpDesk employee was fired; however, he/she is currently suing Corel
>> (the WordPerfect organization) for 'Termination without Cause'!

...

>> Q "Well, turn on the office light then."
>>
>> A "I can't!"
>>
>> Q "No? Why not?"
>>
>> A "Because there's a power outage."
>>
>> Q "A power . . . A power outage? Aha, Okay, we've got it licked now.
>> Do you still have the boxes and manuals and packing stuff your computer
>> came in?"
>>
>> A "Well, yes, I keep them in the closet."
>>
>> Q "Good. Go get them, and unplug your system and pack it up just like
>> it was when you got it. Then take it back to the store you bought it
>> from."
>>
>> A "Really? Is it that bad?"
>>
>> Q "Yes, I'm afraid it is."
>>
>> A "Well, all right then, I suppose. What do I tell them?"
>>
>> Q "Tell them you're too stupid to own a computer."
>
> A real classic!

I've seen that one many times and it still amuses me. It would be
interesting know whether it was a real case, as the explanation at the
beginning claims whenever the story is quoted. And if it was genuine, what
the final outcome was. The support guy was maybe a bit tactless and
patronising in the way he phrased it, but his ultimate conclusion is valid:
you can't expect a mains-powered computer (or any other appliance) to
continue to work when the mains fails - unless you have a UPS.

[Java Jive]

On 29/06/2022 09:27, NY wrote:
>
> "Wilf" <wi...@postingx.uk> wrote in message
> news:t9f8io$14fhg$1...@dont-email.me...
>>

[Quoting broke: Java Jive wrote:]

>>>
>>> The version of that story that I heard was as follows:
>>>
>>> Wordperfect Helpline
>>>
>>> A true story from the WordPerfect Helpline.  Needless to say the
>>> HelpDesk employee was fired; however, he/she is currently suing Corel
>>> (the WordPerfect organization) for 'Termination without Cause'!
>

> ....

>
>>> Q "Well, turn on the office light then."
>>>
>>> A "I can't!"
>>>
>>> Q "No?  Why not?"
>>>
>>> A "Because there's a power outage."
>>>
>>> Q "A power . . . A power outage?  Aha, Okay, we've got it licked now.
>>> Do you still have the boxes and manuals and packing stuff your computer
>>> came in?"
>>>
>>> A "Well, yes, I keep them in the closet."
>>>
>>> Q "Good.  Go get them, and unplug your system and pack it up just like
>>> it was when you got it.  Then take it back to the store you bought it
>>> from."
>>>
>>> A "Really?  Is it that bad?"
>>>
>>> Q "Yes, I'm afraid it is."
>>>
>>> A "Well, all right then, I suppose.  What do I tell them?"
>>>
>>> Q "Tell them you're too stupid to own a computer."
>>
>> A real classic!
>
> I've seen that one many times and it still amuses me. It would be
> interesting know whether it was a real case, as the explanation at the
> beginning claims whenever the story is quoted. And if it was genuine,
> what the final outcome was.

See Jeff Layman's interesting post on the original source - a classic
example of how an urban myth is generated!

I recall also one where a woman hadn't realised what a CD-ROM drive was
for, and had assumed the convenient slide out tray was for putting a
coffee cup on, with the inevitable result! However, I don't appear to
have kept a copy of that one.

Some who have worked in support may like to read this, though ...

Subject: How to please IT

1 When you call us to have your computer moved, be sure to leave it
buried under half a ton of postcards, baby pictures, stuffed animals,
dried flowers, bowling trophies and children's art. We don't have a
life, and we find it deeply moving to catch a fleeting glimpse of yours.

2 Don't write anything down. Ever. We can play back the error messages
from here.

3 When an IT person says he's coming right over, go for coffee. That
way you won't be there when we need your password. It's nothing for us
to remember 700 screen saver passwords.

4 When you call the help desk, state what you want, not what's keeping
you from getting it. We don't need to know that you can't get into your
mail because your computer won't power on at all.

5 When IT support sends you an E-Mail with high importance, delete it at
once. We're just testing.

6 When an IT person is eating lunch at his desk, walk right in and spill
your guts right out. We exist only to serve.

7 Send urgent email all in uppercase. The mail server picks it up and
flags it as a rush delivery.

8 When the photocopier doesn't work, call computer support. There's
electronics in it.

9 When you're getting a NO DIAL TONE message at home, call computer
support. We can fix your telephone line from here.

10 When you have a dozen old computer screens to get rid of, call
computer support. We're collectors.

11 When something's wrong with your home PC, dump it on an IT person's
chair with no name, no phone number and no description of the problem.
We love a puzzle.

12 When an IT person tells you that computer screens don't have
cartridges in them, argue. We love a good argument.

13 When an IT person tells you that he'll be there shortly, reply in a
scathing tone of voice: "And just how many weeks do you mean by
shortly?" That motivates us.

14 When the printer won't print, re-send the job at least 20 times.
Print jobs frequently get sucked into black holes.

15 When the printer still won't print after 20 tries, send the job to
all 68 printers in the company. One of them is bound to work.

16 Don't learn the proper name for anything technical. We know exactly
what you mean by "My thingy blew up".

17 Don't use on-line help. On-line help is for wimps.

18 If the mouse cable keeps knocking down the framed picture of your
dog, lift the computer and stuff the cable under it. Mouse cables were
designed to have 20kg of computer sitting on top of them.

19 If the space bar on your keyboard doesn't work, blame it on the mail
upgrade. Keyboards are actually very happy with half a pound of muffin
crumbs and nail clippings in them.

20 When you get a message saying "Are you sure?" click on that Yes
button as fast as you can. Hell, if you weren't sure, you wouldn't be
doing it, would you?

21 When you find an IT person on the phone with his bank, sit uninvited
on the corner of his desk and stare at him until he hangs up. We don't
have any money to speak of anyway.

22 Feel perfectly free to say things like "I don't know nothing about
that computer crap". We don't mind at all hearing our area of
professional expertise referred to as crap.

23 When you need to change the toner cartridge in a printer, call IT
support. Changing a toner cartridge is an extremely complex task, and
Hewlett-Packard recommends that it be performed only by a professional
engineer with a master's degree in nuclear physics.

24 When something's the matter with your computer, ask your secretary to
call the help desk. We enjoy the challenge of having to deal with a
third party who doesn't know anything about the problem.

25 When you receive a 30mb (huge) movie file, send it to everyone as a
mail attachment. We've got lots of disk space on that mail server.

26 Don't even think of breaking large print jobs down into smaller
chunks. Somebody else might get a chance to squeeze a memo into the queue.

27 When you lose your car keys, send an email to the entire company.
People out in Grimsby like to keep abreast of what's going on.

28 When you bump into an IT person at the grocery store on a Saturday,
ask a computer question. We do weekends.

29 Don't bother to tell us when you move computers around on your own.
Computer names are just a cosmetic feature.

30 When you bring your own personal home PC for repair at the office,
leave the documentation at home. We'll find all the settings and
drivers somewhere.

[Jim Jackson]

On 2022-06-29, Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> Some who have worked in support may like to read this, though ...
>
> Subject: How to please IT
>

or the one that actually happenned to me...

0. When you meet the IT support guy in the corridor, follow him
gabbling about your problem, follow him into the gents and continue to
talk at him while he urinates in the urinal!

:-) I don't think I said more than 2 words throughout this episode.

[NY]

"Jim Jackson" <j...@franjam.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrntboj...@iridium.wf32df...

> On 2022-06-29, Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Some who have worked in support may like to read this, though ...
>>
>> Subject: How to please IT
>>
>
> or the one that actually happenned to me...
>
> 0. When you meet the IT support guy in the corridor, follow him
> gabbling about your problem, follow him into the gents and continue to
> talk at him while he urinates in the urinal!
>
> :-) I don't think I said more than 2 words throughout this episode.

Conversely, if it's woman who accosts you in the corridor, diverting via the
Gents is a greater way to get rid of her. Mind you, I did have one woman who
didn't spot the sign and carried on walking in with me - and then gave a
yelp and scarpered *very* fast ;-)