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Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
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Java Jive
Oct 30, 2021, 8:23:11 AM10/30/21
to
Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
"More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
access to faster broadband.
Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire and
North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to download
HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
It is part of the government's £5bn gigabit rollout."
--
Fake news kills!
I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
"More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
access to faster broadband.
Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire and
North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to download
HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
It is part of the government's £5bn gigabit rollout."
--
Fake news kills!
I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk
Woody
Oct 30, 2021, 8:51:06 AM10/30/21
to
On Sat 30/10/2021 13:23, Java Jive wrote:
> Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
>
> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
> access to faster broadband.
>
> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire and
> North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
>
> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to download
> HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>
> It is part of the government's £5bn gigabit rollout."
>
The local on-line 'newspaper' round here is advertising (as news) that
> Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
>
> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
> access to faster broadband.
>
> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire and
> North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
>
> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to download
> HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>
> It is part of the government's £5bn gigabit rollout."
>
fibre broadband is coming here. Early last year City Fibre on behalf of
TalkTalk (now taken over in total by CF) started installing FTTP (or
Fibre To The Home as they call it) and much of the town is nearing
completion.
The company advertising in the 'newspaper' will be using microwave
distribution with fibre to their aerial poles - not quite the same thing
and to my mind seriously misleading.
Andrew
Oct 30, 2021, 2:56:11 PM10/30/21
to
On 30/10/2021 13:23, Java Jive wrote:
> Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
>
> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
> access to faster broadband.
>
> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire and
> North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
>
> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to download
> HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>
Buy *why* would anyone want or need to ?
> Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
>
> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
> access to faster broadband.
>
> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire and
> North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
>
> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to download
> HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>
Java Jive
Oct 30, 2021, 3:19:08 PM10/30/21
to
which I'd choose.
Tweed
Oct 30, 2021, 3:46:52 PM10/30/21
to
Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 30/10/2021 19:56, Andrew wrote:
>>
>> On 30/10/2021 13:23, Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>>> Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
>>>
>>> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
>>> access to faster broadband.
>>>
>>> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
>>> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire
>>> and North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
>>>
>>> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to
>>> download HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>>
>> Buy *why* would anyone want or need to ?
>
> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
> which I'd choose.
>
Once you have a reliable fibre what incentive is there to make it go
> On 30/10/2021 19:56, Andrew wrote:
>>
>> On 30/10/2021 13:23, Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>>> Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
>>>
>>> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
>>> access to faster broadband.
>>>
>>> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
>>> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire
>>> and North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
>>>
>>> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to
>>> download HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>>
>> Buy *why* would anyone want or need to ?
>
> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
> which I'd choose.
>
artificially slowly?
Roger Mills
Oct 30, 2021, 4:03:02 PM10/30/21
to
for the full unthrottled service.
But having a gigabit connection to your home only does you any good if
data suppliers can feed it to you at that rate - which most can't!
--
Cheers,
Roger
MB
Oct 31, 2021, 5:50:18 AM10/31/21
to
On 30/10/2021 19:56, Andrew wrote:
>> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to download
>> HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>>
> Buy*why* would anyone want or need to ?
>> HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>>
I always think how fast a hacker could download everything on your hard
disks if they beat your protection!
MB
Oct 31, 2021, 5:55:11 AM10/31/21
to
On 30/10/2021 13:51, Woody wrote:
> The company advertising in the 'newspaper' will be using microwave
> distribution with fibre to their aerial poles - not quite the same thing
> and to my mind seriously misleading.
At least you might not need to have fibre running into and around your
> The company advertising in the 'newspaper' will be using microwave
> distribution with fibre to their aerial poles - not quite the same thing
> and to my mind seriously misleading.
home if there is a clear path to their thing on the pole.
Roderick Stewart
Oct 31, 2021, 6:18:52 AM10/31/21
to
On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 20:18:57 +0100, Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
>>> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to
>>> download HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>>
>> Buy *why* would anyone want or need to ?
>
>If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
>which I'd choose.
I'm guessing you forgot to add "All other things being equal".
One of those other things would be the price, of course. I very much
doubt that anyone will be offered gigabit speeds for nothing, so it's
not a simple choice. The question then becomes whether gigabit speeds
in a domestic setting will do anything that's worth paying for. If a
household's current system uses wet string, then probably yes, but if
what they already have is fast enough to watch TV, it's unlikely
they'd even notice the difference.
Rod.
wrote:
>>> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to
>>> download HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>>
>> Buy *why* would anyone want or need to ?
>
>If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
>which I'd choose.
One of those other things would be the price, of course. I very much
doubt that anyone will be offered gigabit speeds for nothing, so it's
not a simple choice. The question then becomes whether gigabit speeds
in a domestic setting will do anything that's worth paying for. If a
household's current system uses wet string, then probably yes, but if
what they already have is fast enough to watch TV, it's unlikely
they'd even notice the difference.
Rod.
Adrian Caspersz
Oct 31, 2021, 8:28:33 AM10/31/21
to
On 30/10/2021 13:23, Java Jive wrote:
> Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
>
> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
> access to faster broadband.
>
> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire and
> North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
>
> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to download
> HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>
> It is part of the government's £5bn gigabit rollout."
>
High speed internet is great, but aren't there other things in this
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
>
> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
> access to faster broadband.
>
> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire and
> North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
>
> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to download
> HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
>
> It is part of the government's £5bn gigabit rollout."
>
country that need taken care of first?
--
Adrian C
Tweed
Oct 31, 2021, 8:53:16 AM10/31/21
to
life expired copper network.
Jeff Layman
Oct 31, 2021, 12:24:50 PM10/31/21
to
connection), and the only "fault" was when a car hit the street cabinets
and intermittently affected broadband. The house was built 55 years ago
so I guess the telephone cables are around that old. We get around
30MB/s, which is good enough for what I need.
Previous to that we were at a place for 14 years (underground
connection) and we lost voice calls once for a few days. I think it was
due to water getting into the wiring. How long will fibre optic cables
/actually/ last? I've seen estimates of around 20 - 40 years, which is
still a lot less than the copper we have here. I've got no objection to
FTTP, although we won't get it here for years. This paper from 2004 is
interesting:
<https://www.ecmag.com/section/systems/problems-aging-fiber-optic-networks>
--
Jeff
Tweed
Oct 31, 2021, 12:53:27 PM10/31/21
to
electronics. Lots of multi core cables are starting to fail. Just go and
have a chat to the Open Reach technicians next time you see one with their
head down a manhole. They’ll curse the state of the cabling. So at some
point you,have to replace them. Replacing like for like is like building
new steam engines in the era of electric locomotives.
The electronics in the exchange and FTTC cabs need to be replaced as they
age. Again, nobody is going to invest in old DSL technology when FTTP is
available. BT is already in serious danger of being overtaken by very well
financed outfits rolling out FTTP. There’s certainly no future for BT just
keeping the old copper based network going. Remember voice traffic,and
therefore revenues, are in serious decline and any voice traffic that there
is heading very rapidly to the mobile networks. BT can only make money
offering data, and they won’t compete with the competition on the old DSL
network.
Long term maintenance costs for fibre are also reckoned to be much lower.
Graham J
Oct 31, 2021, 2:04:17 PM10/31/21
to
Tweed wrote:
> Jeff Layman <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
>
> There’s two main bits that are life expired: the cables and the
> electronics. Lots of multi core cables are starting to fail. Just go and
> have a chat to the Open Reach technicians next time you see one with their
> head down a manhole. They’ll curse the state of the cabling. So at some
> point you,have to replace them. Replacing like for like is like building
> new steam engines in the era of electric locomotives.
>
> The electronics in the exchange and FTTC cabs need to be replaced as they
> age. Again, nobody is going to invest in old DSL technology when FTTP is
> available. BT is already in serious danger of being overtaken by very well
> financed outfits rolling out FTTP. There’s certainly no future for BT just
> keeping the old copper based network going. Remember voice traffic,and
> therefore revenues, are in serious decline and any voice traffic that there
> is heading very rapidly to the mobile networks. BT can only make money
> offering data, and they won’t compete with the competition on the old DSL
> network.
>
> Long term maintenance costs for fibre are also reckoned to be much lower.
>
Pity they don't get on and do it then.
We've only had FTTC here (Thetford Forest) for a couple of years, and
given its unreliability it would have been better if Openreach had moved
straight to FTTP rather than install a silly green cabinet at the and of
the village (over a km away, so I get less than 25 Mbits/sec and it
re-syncs almost daily.
Their only salavation at present is that 3G only works outdoors so it's
no good for data, but OK to ring if you get lost walking in the woods.
I've not seen anybody get 4G round here, though the coverage maps
suggest it might be possible.
--
Graham J
> Jeff Layman <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
>
> There’s two main bits that are life expired: the cables and the
> electronics. Lots of multi core cables are starting to fail. Just go and
> have a chat to the Open Reach technicians next time you see one with their
> head down a manhole. They’ll curse the state of the cabling. So at some
> point you,have to replace them. Replacing like for like is like building
> new steam engines in the era of electric locomotives.
>
> The electronics in the exchange and FTTC cabs need to be replaced as they
> age. Again, nobody is going to invest in old DSL technology when FTTP is
> available. BT is already in serious danger of being overtaken by very well
> financed outfits rolling out FTTP. There’s certainly no future for BT just
> keeping the old copper based network going. Remember voice traffic,and
> therefore revenues, are in serious decline and any voice traffic that there
> is heading very rapidly to the mobile networks. BT can only make money
> offering data, and they won’t compete with the competition on the old DSL
> network.
>
> Long term maintenance costs for fibre are also reckoned to be much lower.
>
We've only had FTTC here (Thetford Forest) for a couple of years, and
given its unreliability it would have been better if Openreach had moved
straight to FTTP rather than install a silly green cabinet at the and of
the village (over a km away, so I get less than 25 Mbits/sec and it
re-syncs almost daily.
Their only salavation at present is that 3G only works outdoors so it's
no good for data, but OK to ring if you get lost walking in the woods.
I've not seen anybody get 4G round here, though the coverage maps
suggest it might be possible.
--
Graham J
Roderick Stewart
Oct 31, 2021, 2:19:19 PM10/31/21
to
thirty odd years I've lived in my house, providing a dial-up
connection at first, then ADSL, and then VDSL/FTTC. I chose each of
those changes voluntarily because they gave improvements that made a
noticeable difference that I didn't mind paying for.
For now, I'm happy with what I'm able to do with my internet
connection and don't need more. I can browse the web and watch HD TV
streaming services with usage peaking at about two thirds of capacity,
which seems a reasonable margin, so a tenfold or hundredfold increase
in available speed wouldn't make any difference to these things. It
might be possible to download a movie in three seconds, but it would
still take a couple of hours to watch it, so what would be the point?
As the only possible "upgrade" - to FTTP - would not be chosen by me
because I have no need of it and wouldn't want to pay for something
that would be of no benefit to me, the only way it could come about is
if it were forced upon me, so who would pay for that? I don't think
anybody would be happy to be expected to pay extra for something they
did not want and had not asked for, so it won't be an easy thing to
sell to people who already have adequate FTTC systems if they're
honest about the difference it will make to TV streaming, i.e. none.
Of course they could always try dishonesty and obfuscation...
Rod.
Tweed
Oct 31, 2021, 2:21:10 PM10/31/21
to
they are desperately trying to do at the moment. Watch the financial pages
next month in respect of takeover talk.
Tweed
Oct 31, 2021, 2:23:04 PM10/31/21
to
Most will be gone within a decade.
Jeff Layman
Oct 31, 2021, 4:22:49 PM10/31/21
to
to everybody, the papers would be full of it, but it just isn't. Where
are the mass complaints about failing landlines? Sure, we see lots of
Openreach around doing "things" , but are they mending or installing new
fibre optic cables? It seems to me that the fibre installation is by
design rather than necessity. It's just something more they can sell
which isn't strictly necessary. It's really just a way to compete with
mobile broadband, isn't it? My 4G connection is at least as fast as my
landline. I'm sure the argument about obsolete technology has been
bandied around before (Strowger to System X, perhaps?). Anyway, you
might find the two "Maintenance and Reliability" sections at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TXE#Reliability_and_maintenance> of interest.
And, from what I've read, Voip quality isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Let's also hope there are no power supply failures when Voip is the only
way to make an emergency call - the fibre optics and associated
circuitry may be reliable for years (although that's yet to be
demonstrated), but if you can't make an emergency call because you've go
no power, we'll soon hear about it.
--
Jeff
Theo
Oct 31, 2021, 4:48:49 PM10/31/21
to
Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
later BT has enough pennies in the jar to replace your line with a new one.
They may in fact be future pennies, because BT can borrow against the
reduced maintenance cost to get the work done now - a bit like you can
borrow from the bank to put a new roof on you house, because without a
working roof the house will become worthless quite rapidly. If BT doesn't
have working lines they can't charge for them.
It does not mean that everyone has to pay for a gigabit connection if you
don't want one. The lowest tier of FTTP broadband is a bit better than the
cheap tier of FTTC, but there's no more 'up to' - you get the advertised
speed, end of story. The price is about the same as FTTC. It's more
reliable and doesn't cost you extra, what's not to like?
If you just want to use it for voice, no broadband, there's a tier for that
too.
> You won’t get much choice when copper is decommissioned at your exchange.
> Most will be gone within a decade.
And BT no longer have to pay to maintain or lease the exchange building,
which is another cost saving (they did a sale-and-lease-back deal about 20
years ago so they no longer own the exchange itself).
Plus there's a nice tax break that says they can book 130% of the cost
against tax (ie they get paid for 30% of the work, as well as being let off
taxes). Which tips the scales even more in favour of doing it now.
Theo
> Roderick Stewart <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> > As the only possible "upgrade" - to FTTP - would not be chosen by me
> > because I have no need of it and wouldn't want to pay for something
> > that would be of no benefit to me, the only way it could come about is
> > if it were forced upon me, so who would pay for that? I don't think
> > anybody would be happy to be expected to pay extra for something they
> > did not want and had not asked for, so it won't be an easy thing to
> > sell to people who already have adequate FTTC systems if they're
> > honest about the difference it will make to TV streaming, i.e. none.
> >
> > Of course they could always try dishonesty and obfuscation...
You pay a 'line rental' which covers maintenance of your line. Sooner or
> > As the only possible "upgrade" - to FTTP - would not be chosen by me
> > because I have no need of it and wouldn't want to pay for something
> > that would be of no benefit to me, the only way it could come about is
> > if it were forced upon me, so who would pay for that? I don't think
> > anybody would be happy to be expected to pay extra for something they
> > did not want and had not asked for, so it won't be an easy thing to
> > sell to people who already have adequate FTTC systems if they're
> > honest about the difference it will make to TV streaming, i.e. none.
> >
> > Of course they could always try dishonesty and obfuscation...
later BT has enough pennies in the jar to replace your line with a new one.
They may in fact be future pennies, because BT can borrow against the
reduced maintenance cost to get the work done now - a bit like you can
borrow from the bank to put a new roof on you house, because without a
working roof the house will become worthless quite rapidly. If BT doesn't
have working lines they can't charge for them.
It does not mean that everyone has to pay for a gigabit connection if you
don't want one. The lowest tier of FTTP broadband is a bit better than the
cheap tier of FTTC, but there's no more 'up to' - you get the advertised
speed, end of story. The price is about the same as FTTC. It's more
reliable and doesn't cost you extra, what's not to like?
If you just want to use it for voice, no broadband, there's a tier for that
too.
> You won’t get much choice when copper is decommissioned at your exchange.
> Most will be gone within a decade.
which is another cost saving (they did a sale-and-lease-back deal about 20
years ago so they no longer own the exchange itself).
Plus there's a nice tax break that says they can book 130% of the cost
against tax (ie they get paid for 30% of the work, as well as being let off
taxes). Which tips the scales even more in favour of doing it now.
Theo
NY
Oct 31, 2021, 5:09:44 PM10/31/21
to
"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:thltngtf9sgbgu2s0...@4ax.com...
improvement. For normal web browsing and POP/SMTP/web mail, fast ADSL or
else VDSL/FTTC is probably at that point. For downloading large files (eg
movies, installation media for an upgraded OS or a large package), the extra
that FTTP offers *may* be worth the extra cost of the upgrade.
But... the cost that BT Openreach charges ISPs for FTTP has recently been
reduced (not sure why, unless it's for marketing rather than technical
reasons).
Set against this is the new equipment that people will need to buy (if not
supplied by their ISP): a router which is capable of accepting Ethernet
(from the fibre "modem") rather than phone line as its input, and the extra
hassle of installing an Ethernet cable from the fibre "modem" (which will be
wherever BT OR put it) to the router (placed to be within Ethernet reach of
wired PCs, and to give good wifi coverage).
I'm not looking forward to FTTP because it will be a nightmare routing the
Ethernet from the modem to the router, since it will have to go
a) across a hardwood floor and a quarry-tiled floor, where there is no
carpet edge for a flat Ethernet cable to be tucked down
or
b) up into the roof space, through a masonery wall between different parts
of the house) and then down into the living room, with consequent holes
being needed in the ceiling and cables running down corners of walls, which
probably won't pass the SWMBO neatness test
Or else BT OR may install the termination point in the living room, in which
case we need to find a way of getting mains to power the fibre modem to that
side of the room, which would need a cable laying in a concrete floor across
a doorway to reach from the nearest mains socket, and hat would need a deep
channel to allow for armoured trunking to guard against anyone nailing a
carpet strip across the doorway.
news:thltngtf9sgbgu2s0...@4ax.com...
> My copper cable connection has been working perfectly for me for the
> thirty odd years I've lived in my house, providing a dial-up
> connection at first, then ADSL, and then VDSL/FTTC. I chose each of
> those changes voluntarily because they gave improvements that made a
> noticeable difference that I didn't mind paying for.
>
> For now, I'm happy with what I'm able to do with my internet
> connection and don't need more. I can browse the web and watch HD TV
> streaming services with usage peaking at about two thirds of capacity,
> which seems a reasonable margin, so a tenfold or hundredfold increase
> in available speed wouldn't make any difference to these things. It
> might be possible to download a movie in three seconds, but it would
> still take a couple of hours to watch it, so what would be the point?
Yes, there will come a time when the customer doesn't perceive an
> thirty odd years I've lived in my house, providing a dial-up
> connection at first, then ADSL, and then VDSL/FTTC. I chose each of
> those changes voluntarily because they gave improvements that made a
> noticeable difference that I didn't mind paying for.
>
> For now, I'm happy with what I'm able to do with my internet
> connection and don't need more. I can browse the web and watch HD TV
> streaming services with usage peaking at about two thirds of capacity,
> which seems a reasonable margin, so a tenfold or hundredfold increase
> in available speed wouldn't make any difference to these things. It
> might be possible to download a movie in three seconds, but it would
> still take a couple of hours to watch it, so what would be the point?
improvement. For normal web browsing and POP/SMTP/web mail, fast ADSL or
else VDSL/FTTC is probably at that point. For downloading large files (eg
movies, installation media for an upgraded OS or a large package), the extra
that FTTP offers *may* be worth the extra cost of the upgrade.
But... the cost that BT Openreach charges ISPs for FTTP has recently been
reduced (not sure why, unless it's for marketing rather than technical
reasons).
Set against this is the new equipment that people will need to buy (if not
supplied by their ISP): a router which is capable of accepting Ethernet
(from the fibre "modem") rather than phone line as its input, and the extra
hassle of installing an Ethernet cable from the fibre "modem" (which will be
wherever BT OR put it) to the router (placed to be within Ethernet reach of
wired PCs, and to give good wifi coverage).
I'm not looking forward to FTTP because it will be a nightmare routing the
Ethernet from the modem to the router, since it will have to go
a) across a hardwood floor and a quarry-tiled floor, where there is no
carpet edge for a flat Ethernet cable to be tucked down
or
b) up into the roof space, through a masonery wall between different parts
of the house) and then down into the living room, with consequent holes
being needed in the ceiling and cables running down corners of walls, which
probably won't pass the SWMBO neatness test
Or else BT OR may install the termination point in the living room, in which
case we need to find a way of getting mains to power the fibre modem to that
side of the room, which would need a cable laying in a concrete floor across
a doorway to reach from the nearest mains socket, and hat would need a deep
channel to allow for armoured trunking to guard against anyone nailing a
carpet strip across the doorway.
Graham J
Oct 31, 2021, 6:34:54 PM10/31/21
to
Jeff Layman wrote:
[snip]
>
> And, from what I've read, Voip quality isn't all it's cracked up to be.
But it's way better than a mobile phone. Just listen to any radio/tv
interviews where the interviewee is using a mobile - very frequently the
presenter has to apologise and terminate the call. When you consider
that most of the interviewees are in their homes or places of work,
there's no excuse not to use a landline. Obviously an interviewee at
Kabul airport needs to use a mobile, but there aren't many such people now.
> Let's also hope there are no power supply failures when Voip is the only
> way to make an emergency call - the fibre optics and associated
> circuitry may be reliable for years (although that's yet to be
> demonstrated), but if you can't make an emergency call because you've go
> no power, we'll soon hear about it.
All mobile phones contain batteries.
There's no technical reason why a fibre modem/router should not also
contain a battery. Further, it could have health monitoring which tells
the system operator when it needs to be replaced.
My worry is that we will get a half-baked solution where VoIP is carried
over FTTC, so the unreliable "last mile" of copper will still be there!
--
Graham J
[snip]
>
> And, from what I've read, Voip quality isn't all it's cracked up to be.
interviews where the interviewee is using a mobile - very frequently the
presenter has to apologise and terminate the call. When you consider
that most of the interviewees are in their homes or places of work,
there's no excuse not to use a landline. Obviously an interviewee at
Kabul airport needs to use a mobile, but there aren't many such people now.
> Let's also hope there are no power supply failures when Voip is the only
> way to make an emergency call - the fibre optics and associated
> circuitry may be reliable for years (although that's yet to be
> demonstrated), but if you can't make an emergency call because you've go
> no power, we'll soon hear about it.
There's no technical reason why a fibre modem/router should not also
contain a battery. Further, it could have health monitoring which tells
the system operator when it needs to be replaced.
My worry is that we will get a half-baked solution where VoIP is carried
over FTTC, so the unreliable "last mile" of copper will still be there!
--
Graham J
Roderick Stewart
Nov 1, 2021, 5:28:09 AM11/1/21
to
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021 18:23:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> There?s two main bits that are life expired: the cables and the
I'm 73. It's possible that I'll be gone myself within a decade.
Whoever gets this house after me can do what they like, but in the
meantime I'm content with what I have. If I was offered FTTP free of
charge because it was convenient for the providers to get everyone on
the same system, I'd happily accept as in my case it would just mean
one extra box and an ethernet cable, but I see no point paying extra
for something that would make no difference to anything I can do.
Rod.
>>> electronics. Lots of multi core cables are starting to fail. Just go and
>>> have a chat to the Open Reach technicians next time you see one with their
>>> head down a manhole. They?ll curse the state of the cabling. So at some
>>> have a chat to the Open Reach technicians next time you see one with their
>>> point you,have to replace them. Replacing like for like is like building
>>> new steam engines in the era of electric locomotives.
>>>
>>> The electronics in the exchange and FTTC cabs need to be replaced as they
>>> age. Again, nobody is going to invest in old DSL technology when FTTP is
>>> available. BT is already in serious danger of being overtaken by very well
>>> financed outfits rolling out FTTP. There?s certainly no future for BT just
>>> new steam engines in the era of electric locomotives.
>>>
>>> The electronics in the exchange and FTTC cabs need to be replaced as they
>>> age. Again, nobody is going to invest in old DSL technology when FTTP is
>>> available. BT is already in serious danger of being overtaken by very well
>>> keeping the old copper based network going. Remember voice traffic,and
>>> therefore revenues, are in serious decline and any voice traffic that there
>>> is heading very rapidly to the mobile networks. BT can only make money
>>> offering data, and they won?t compete with the competition on the old DSL
>>> therefore revenues, are in serious decline and any voice traffic that there
>>> is heading very rapidly to the mobile networks. BT can only make money
Whoever gets this house after me can do what they like, but in the
meantime I'm content with what I have. If I was offered FTTP free of
charge because it was convenient for the providers to get everyone on
the same system, I'd happily accept as in my case it would just mean
one extra box and an ethernet cable, but I see no point paying extra
for something that would make no difference to anything I can do.
Rod.
Roderick Stewart
Nov 1, 2021, 5:39:19 AM11/1/21
to
On Sun, 31 Oct 2021 22:34:50 +0000, Graham J <nob...@nowhere.co.uk>
wrote:
>There's no technical reason why a fibre modem/router should not also
>contain a battery. Further, it could have health monitoring which tells
>the system operator when it needs to be replaced.
You can already get the equivalent of this in the form of a small UPS
with a low voltage DC output, intended for things like security
cameras or modem/routers. They're not even ridiculously expensive or
difficult to find. Try Amazon.
Rod.
wrote:
>There's no technical reason why a fibre modem/router should not also
>contain a battery. Further, it could have health monitoring which tells
>the system operator when it needs to be replaced.
with a low voltage DC output, intended for things like security
cameras or modem/routers. They're not even ridiculously expensive or
difficult to find. Try Amazon.
Rod.
Graham J
Nov 1, 2021, 5:53:41 AM11/1/21
to
you for a fibre router?
It's all about an integrated system.
--
Graham J
Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Nov 1, 2021, 7:18:37 AM11/1/21
to
> But you wouldn't buy a separate UPS for a mobile phone, so why
> should you for a fibre router?
A lot of people have a portable power bank for their mobile that will keep it
> should you for a fibre router?
running for several days or weeks, assuming the base stations still have mains
power.
I have an APC UPS powering my routers, APs, network switch and main PC and
screen, although it will only last an hour or so running them all. A 500VA UPS
costs about £60 from Amazon, and will keep routers going for several hours.
Ofcom has ensured that vulnerable people moved to FTTP will get some sort of
standby power supply, probably a simple battery pack, so they don't lose phone
service.
Angus
NY
Nov 1, 2021, 7:46:30 AM11/1/21
to
"Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd" <an...@magsys.co.uk> wrote in
message news:memo.20211101...@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk...
It's a clever trick on BT's part to move the responsibility for UPS from the
exchange to the customer's premises.
You may need two UPSes: one for the fibre "modem" and another for the router
and maybe the phone, if the fibre termination point (and its modem) has to
be placed somewhere other than the point where the router and the phone base
station are.
message news:memo.20211101...@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk...
exchange to the customer's premises.
You may need two UPSes: one for the fibre "modem" and another for the router
and maybe the phone, if the fibre termination point (and its modem) has to
be placed somewhere other than the point where the router and the phone base
station are.
Tweed
Nov 1, 2021, 8:37:55 AM11/1/21
to
words you can’t send electricity down glass fibres.
Andy Burns
Nov 1, 2021, 8:43:03 AM11/1/21
to
Tweed wrote:
> It’s not a trick by BT. It’s an inherent part of the technology, in other
> words you can’t send electricity down glass fibres.
Well, not much ...
> It’s not a trick by BT. It’s an inherent part of the technology, in other
> words you can’t send electricity down glass fibres.
<https://uk.farnell.com/search?ost=afbr&searchref=searchlookahead&product-range=afbr-pocxxxl>
Adrian Caspersz
Nov 1, 2021, 9:54:55 AM11/1/21
to
On 31/10/2021 22:34, Graham J wrote:
>
> All mobile phones contain batteries.
>
> There's no technical reason why a fibre modem/router should not also
> contain a battery. Further, it could have health monitoring which tells
> the system operator when it needs to be replaced.
>
In America, cable modems feature battery backup as standard.
>
> All mobile phones contain batteries.
>
> There's no technical reason why a fibre modem/router should not also
> contain a battery. Further, it could have health monitoring which tells
> the system operator when it needs to be replaced.
>
Extracting 18650 SAMSUNG cells out of $1.20 Modem Lithium Batteries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sECZALQjOBQ
Douglas Adams once wrote a skit about a planet found where all the Biro
pens ended up. I now wonder how many 18650 cells there are in the world.
Billions?
--
Adrian C
Tweed
Nov 1, 2021, 10:06:08 AM11/1/21
to
Chris
Nov 1, 2021, 10:15:17 AM11/1/21
to
via Teams/Zoom) I'd say not. However, we do need to help much more with
access and training. It's no good telling 80 yo Gwen that she now has
FTTP when she hasn't got the first clue.
A lot of vulnerable people are being left behind in the name of progress.
Tweed
Nov 1, 2021, 10:20:17 AM11/1/21
to
goes off for an hour so what, you can mostly live with that. If it’s been
off for half the day you might want to ring up to find up what’s happening,
but by then the battery is dead. Or you need some sort of micro power mode
that detects that a phone call is trying to be made and thus powers up the
rest of the modem.
Adrian Caspersz
Nov 1, 2021, 11:39:55 AM11/1/21
to
and intuition.
Users ...
* Have to be of an inquisitive mind and wanting.
* Can't deploy the majority of actions as a sequence of learned
instructions (rote). They should deal with handling exceptions instead.
* Have to understand choices and why to make them.
* Should comprehend jargon.
In everyday life most people (apart from disabilities) manage the above
list quite well in their circle of expertise, but computers/phones are
outside that - and ye still get the feeling that "If you wanted to
understand Coronation Street, too late - you should have watched it from
the beginning"
I'm not in favour of promoting the dumbing down of things, but some have
clearly walked into this IT uselessness trap where in the past thirty
years others haven't.
Put AI powered voice assistants on standby, they will be needed.
--
Adrian C
Roderick Stewart
Nov 1, 2021, 1:48:27 PM11/1/21
to
On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 09:53:36 +0000, Graham J <nob...@nowhere.co.uk>
A mobile phone already has a UPS. It's called a battery.
The router would typically be separately located from the rest of the
equipment, e.g. in the hallway near where the cable or fibre enters
the house. Also, a router typically only requires a few Watts, so it
would be insanely inefficient to provide power for it from a mains
inverter running from a battery and then converting the AC back to low
voltage DC. It makes much more sense for the router to have its own
low voltage backup supply that can keep it going for longer than the
sort of UPS you would use for a PC, which is often only required to
buy enough time in a power cut for the PC to perform an elegant
shutdown instead of crashing and losing data, maybe only minutes.
Battery powered devices like mobile phones, tablets and laptops can
survive for a considerable time without mains power, so in a domestic
setup it would be useful if the wi-fi kept going for a similar time.
Rod.
The router would typically be separately located from the rest of the
equipment, e.g. in the hallway near where the cable or fibre enters
the house. Also, a router typically only requires a few Watts, so it
would be insanely inefficient to provide power for it from a mains
inverter running from a battery and then converting the AC back to low
voltage DC. It makes much more sense for the router to have its own
low voltage backup supply that can keep it going for longer than the
sort of UPS you would use for a PC, which is often only required to
buy enough time in a power cut for the PC to perform an elegant
shutdown instead of crashing and losing data, maybe only minutes.
Battery powered devices like mobile phones, tablets and laptops can
survive for a considerable time without mains power, so in a domestic
setup it would be useful if the wi-fi kept going for a similar time.
Rod.
NY
Nov 2, 2021, 6:05:22 AM11/2/21
to
"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3490og1v4265gqehe...@4ax.com...
> The router would typically be separately located from the rest of the
> equipment, e.g. in the hallway near where the cable or fibre enters
> the house. Also, a router typically only requires a few Watts, so it
> would be insanely inefficient to provide power for it from a mains
> inverter running from a battery and then converting the AC back to low
> voltage DC. It makes much more sense for the router to have its own
> low voltage backup supply that can keep it going for longer than the
> sort of UPS you would use for a PC, which is often only required to
> buy enough time in a power cut for the PC to perform an elegant
> shutdown instead of crashing and losing data, maybe only minutes.
>
> Battery powered devices like mobile phones, tablets and laptops can
> survive for a considerable time without mains power, so in a domestic
> setup it would be useful if the wi-fi kept going for a similar time.
It would help a lot if all comms equipment (eg router, fibre "modem" etc)
> equipment, e.g. in the hallway near where the cable or fibre enters
> the house. Also, a router typically only requires a few Watts, so it
> would be insanely inefficient to provide power for it from a mains
> inverter running from a battery and then converting the AC back to low
> voltage DC. It makes much more sense for the router to have its own
> low voltage backup supply that can keep it going for longer than the
> sort of UPS you would use for a PC, which is often only required to
> buy enough time in a power cut for the PC to perform an elegant
> shutdown instead of crashing and losing data, maybe only minutes.
>
> Battery powered devices like mobile phones, tablets and laptops can
> survive for a considerable time without mains power, so in a domestic
> setup it would be useful if the wi-fi kept going for a similar time.
used the same DC input (voltage, plug), preferably 5V with micro USb or
USB-C so you could plug a USB battery into the router to keep it going for a
while in a power cut.
I remember about 15 years ago the small company that I worked for suffered a
power cut when a JCB went through a high-voltage cable somewhere in the
area. The phone system was entirely VOIP: although they had a passive
analogue phone with a BT plug for such emergencies, they couldn't use it
because the VOIP router had no power. Luckily I had a 12V to 240V inverter
in my car, so we plugged it into the company van, left the engine ticking
over and restored power to the phone system so they could make and receive
phone calls. They did have another problem that I couldn't help with: all
their records of which customers we were due to visit that day were held on
computer, and my inverter wasn't powerful enough to drive that and the
monitor needed to see what the computer was saying.
I earned a few brownie points that day by producing my inverter like a
rabbit out of a hat!
Woody
Nov 2, 2021, 7:33:28 AM11/2/21
to
NY
Nov 2, 2021, 8:18:10 AM11/2/21
to
"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:slr7m7$ab2$1...@dont-email.me...
high enough current rating. OK, so every car has a ready-made 12V supply,
but you'd need to run a long lead from the car to the house. Long mains
leads (plus a 12V-to-240V converter) are easier to find than a long 12V
cable with a cigarette-lighter plug on one end and one of several connectors
on the end for the router.
We really need to standardise on one size of coaxial plug and one size of
USB plug (or maybe two: micro and USB-C). I recently bought a 240V-to-5V PSU
for a security camera whose own PSU had finally failed, and it came with
about five difference sizes of connector to choose from. OK, so have one
standard size for 12V and another difference size for 5V (assuming it's not
micro-USB/USB-C) to avoid accidents.
Given the plethora of connectors and voltages and of currents that may be
drawn, it is easier to use 240V as the common standard, inefficient though
it is ;-)
news:slr7m7$ab2$1...@dont-email.me...
> All of the routers that I have had and still have use 12V.
Exactly, and 5V-to-12V converters are not easy to find, especially with a
high enough current rating. OK, so every car has a ready-made 12V supply,
but you'd need to run a long lead from the car to the house. Long mains
leads (plus a 12V-to-240V converter) are easier to find than a long 12V
cable with a cigarette-lighter plug on one end and one of several connectors
on the end for the router.
We really need to standardise on one size of coaxial plug and one size of
USB plug (or maybe two: micro and USB-C). I recently bought a 240V-to-5V PSU
for a security camera whose own PSU had finally failed, and it came with
about five difference sizes of connector to choose from. OK, so have one
standard size for 12V and another difference size for 5V (assuming it's not
micro-USB/USB-C) to avoid accidents.
Given the plethora of connectors and voltages and of currents that may be
drawn, it is easier to use 240V as the common standard, inefficient though
it is ;-)
Tweed
Nov 2, 2021, 8:29:44 AM11/2/21
to
notya...@gmail.com
Nov 2, 2021, 12:51:10 PM11/2/21
to
On Saturday, 30 October 2021 at 20:19:08 UTC+1, Java Jive wrote:
> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
> which I'd choose.
> --
>
> Fake news kills!
>
> I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
> www.macfh.co.uk
If is is a choice between 50Mbps ADSL, which I get or paying £££ for FTTP at 1Gbps or even ADSL at 76Mbps then I know which I'd choose. In much the same way I don't have a car with 700bhp engine just to go to the shops. OTOH there is a place for Gigabit internet - business - ideal to connect a busy office, in the same way a business might have a 44 tonne lorry with a 700bhp engine.
> On 30/10/2021 19:56, Andrew wrote:
> >
> > On 30/10/2021 13:23, Java Jive wrote:
> >>
> >> Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
> >> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
> >>
> >> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
> >> access to faster broadband.
> >>
> >> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
> >> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire
> >> and North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
> >>
> >> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to
> >> download HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
> >
> > Buy *why* would anyone want or need to ?
> >
> > On 30/10/2021 13:23, Java Jive wrote:
> >>
> >> Gigabit broadband: Half-a-million rural homes to get boost
> >> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59090933
> >>
> >> "More than half-a-million homes in rural areas of England are to get
> >> access to faster broadband.
> >>
> >> Some 567,000 properties in parts of Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Somerset,
> >> Essex, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire
> >> and North Yorkshire are in line for the boost.
> >>
> >> Equivalent to 1,000 megabits per second, users will be able to
> >> download HD movies in less than 30 seconds.
> >
> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
> which I'd choose.
> --
>
> Fake news kills!
>
> I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
> www.macfh.co.uk
If is is a choice between 50Mbps ADSL, which I get or paying £££ for FTTP at 1Gbps or even ADSL at 76Mbps then I know which I'd choose. In much the same way I don't have a car with 700bhp engine just to go to the shops. OTOH there is a place for Gigabit internet - business - ideal to connect a busy office, in the same way a business might have a 44 tonne lorry with a 700bhp engine.
Tweed
Nov 2, 2021, 12:54:33 PM11/2/21
to
is going to go.
notya...@gmail.com
Nov 2, 2021, 12:55:43 PM11/2/21
to
notya...@gmail.com
Nov 2, 2021, 12:59:40 PM11/2/21
to
Tim+
Nov 2, 2021, 1:03:50 PM11/2/21
to
notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> True, although more like 500m in an urban area similar to where I live,
> but of course the unreliable miles of copper (or worse aluminium) between
> the cabinet and the exchange will be eliminated. That is usually simple
> to replace because it is all ducted.
Not if it was done 50 years ago. They’re digging up pavements all around
>
> True, although more like 500m in an urban area similar to where I live,
> but of course the unreliable miles of copper (or worse aluminium) between
> the cabinet and the exchange will be eliminated. That is usually simple
> to replace because it is all ducted.
us to mend broken clay pipe ducts in preparation for fibre.
Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
NY
Nov 2, 2021, 1:32:21 PM11/2/21
to
"notya...@gmail.com" <notya...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4cc49038-bc6a-471e...@googlegroups.com...
one evening where the power was going off every 30 seconds or so). Each time
it was only for a second, but that's long enough to reboot anything with a
computer in it.
That was due to appallingly bad maintenance and clearance of overhanging
trees that were touching the high-voltage lines to the village, tripping the
circuit-breakers which then re-made the connection using either the same or
an alternative HV feed.
We played merry hell with the electricity supplier. We had very little
feedback about it, but at least we logged the complaints and the problem
went away so the sheer weight of numbers must have triggered the people to
clear the lines.
It happened again last year, a few weeks after a planned power cut to allow
work to be done clearing overhanging trees, and this time a senior engineer
came out and investigated. He went away and within a couple of hours he'd
located a branch that had probably been held out of the way by other
branches, and when those other ones were cleared, the remaining one
eventually sprang into the wrong position. He managed to get it fixed
somehow without even needing to turn the power off: he warned us that the
power would probably go off but it never did. Since then (touch wood - eg
touch overhanging branch!) the power has been fine.
It was a pain when the power went off like that because it meant my main PC
would reboot (and it takes about 10 minutes for the CPU usage to settle back
down to normal after the flurry of auto-starting everything), the router
would reboot (sometimes taking a while to re-establish a VDSL connection)
and I'd have to go round rebooting each of our Velop mesh-network nodes in
the correct order because if they all start at the same time (after a power
cut) some of them sit there indefinitely trying to reconnect. The problem
with the Velop is that it uses fast-but-shorter-range 5 GHz for the comms
between all the remote nodes and the primary node that is connected by
Ethernet to the router, but we need 2.4 GHz as well for some older devices
that don't speak 5 GHz. If you position nodes just at the limiting point of
5 GHz comms, they overlap for 2.4 GHz so there is a problem with them
finding vacant channels at that frequency and they sit there indefinitely.
It would be nice if you could enable 2.4 GHz on a per-node rather than
whole-LAN basis, so we only enable it for the node that serves our old
security cameras and for the nodes that face the garden where we might want
slower but longer-range coverage for occasional web browsing in the garden.
As long as the nodes are started in sequence (primary node than all the
child nodes that talk to it or to each other) then everything is fine.
We could have positioned the nodes further apart and connected them to the
primary by Ethernet, but that would be a very big job routing cable in the
loft and getting it into the relevant rooms without making a mess of the
ceiling and having cables running down the walls.
news:4cc49038-bc6a-471e...@googlegroups.com...
>> You may need two UPSes: one for the fibre "modem" and another for the
>> router
>> and maybe the phone, if the fibre termination point (and its modem) has
>> to
>> be placed somewhere other than the point where the router and the phone
>> base
>> station are.
>
> We had a three minute power cut a year ago. The only one since I moved to
> the area in 1975. I didn't actually notice initially because I was on the
> mobile at the time, although I did hear an alarm sounding a street away,
> and then ours when power was restored because the battery had failed.
We went through a phase of getting multiple power-cuts in the day (there was
>> router
>> and maybe the phone, if the fibre termination point (and its modem) has
>> to
>> be placed somewhere other than the point where the router and the phone
>> base
>> station are.
>
> We had a three minute power cut a year ago. The only one since I moved to
> the area in 1975. I didn't actually notice initially because I was on the
> mobile at the time, although I did hear an alarm sounding a street away,
> and then ours when power was restored because the battery had failed.
one evening where the power was going off every 30 seconds or so). Each time
it was only for a second, but that's long enough to reboot anything with a
computer in it.
That was due to appallingly bad maintenance and clearance of overhanging
trees that were touching the high-voltage lines to the village, tripping the
circuit-breakers which then re-made the connection using either the same or
an alternative HV feed.
We played merry hell with the electricity supplier. We had very little
feedback about it, but at least we logged the complaints and the problem
went away so the sheer weight of numbers must have triggered the people to
clear the lines.
It happened again last year, a few weeks after a planned power cut to allow
work to be done clearing overhanging trees, and this time a senior engineer
came out and investigated. He went away and within a couple of hours he'd
located a branch that had probably been held out of the way by other
branches, and when those other ones were cleared, the remaining one
eventually sprang into the wrong position. He managed to get it fixed
somehow without even needing to turn the power off: he warned us that the
power would probably go off but it never did. Since then (touch wood - eg
touch overhanging branch!) the power has been fine.
It was a pain when the power went off like that because it meant my main PC
would reboot (and it takes about 10 minutes for the CPU usage to settle back
down to normal after the flurry of auto-starting everything), the router
would reboot (sometimes taking a while to re-establish a VDSL connection)
and I'd have to go round rebooting each of our Velop mesh-network nodes in
the correct order because if they all start at the same time (after a power
cut) some of them sit there indefinitely trying to reconnect. The problem
with the Velop is that it uses fast-but-shorter-range 5 GHz for the comms
between all the remote nodes and the primary node that is connected by
Ethernet to the router, but we need 2.4 GHz as well for some older devices
that don't speak 5 GHz. If you position nodes just at the limiting point of
5 GHz comms, they overlap for 2.4 GHz so there is a problem with them
finding vacant channels at that frequency and they sit there indefinitely.
It would be nice if you could enable 2.4 GHz on a per-node rather than
whole-LAN basis, so we only enable it for the node that serves our old
security cameras and for the nodes that face the garden where we might want
slower but longer-range coverage for occasional web browsing in the garden.
As long as the nodes are started in sequence (primary node than all the
child nodes that talk to it or to each other) then everything is fine.
We could have positioned the nodes further apart and connected them to the
primary by Ethernet, but that would be a very big job routing cable in the
loft and getting it into the relevant rooms without making a mess of the
ceiling and having cables running down the walls.
Woody
Nov 2, 2021, 1:47:27 PM11/2/21
to
plug has a smaller pin than a 9V so you can connect 9V onto a supply
that requires 12V as it will do no damage, but you cannot push a 12V
supply into a 9V hole.
The biggest problem-ish is that the original spec of a DIN power plug
had +ve on the outside and -ve in the middle, but the Japanese took a
dislike to that and put it the other way round!
As they say, when is a standard not a standard? When its DIN, ASA,,ISO
etc etc....
Woody
Nov 2, 2021, 2:02:53 PM11/2/21
to
a similar instance where a microwave link carrying road traffic camera
pictures to the police ops room only had about a 25ft pylon for a 12
miles path and they were surprised when the it started dropping out due
to trees growing in the link path - as it happened trees around the
police HQ (which was a different place!)
Vir Campestris
Nov 2, 2021, 5:54:51 PM11/2/21
to
On 01/11/2021 14:20, Tweed wrote:
> There’s little point in having short duration battery backup. If the power
> goes off for an hour so what, you can mostly live with that. If it’s been
> off for half the day you might want to ring up to find up what’s happening,
> but by then the battery is dead. Or you need some sort of micro power mode
> that detects that a phone call is trying to be made and thus powers up the
> rest of the modem.
Up-thread someone mentioned having a spate of short power cuts.
> There’s little point in having short duration battery backup. If the power
> goes off for an hour so what, you can mostly live with that. If it’s been
> off for half the day you might want to ring up to find up what’s happening,
> but by then the battery is dead. Or you need some sort of micro power mode
> that detects that a phone call is trying to be made and thus powers up the
> rest of the modem.
Even a 5 minute backup to give the systems time for a clean shutdown can
be helpful.
Andy
Bob Eager
Nov 2, 2021, 6:22:14 PM11/2/21
to
On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 21:54:50 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:
> Up-thread someone mentioned having a spate of short power cuts.
>
> Even a 5 minute backup to give the systems time for a clean shutdown can
> be helpful.
That's what I have set up. There are three clusters of things on three
> Up-thread someone mentioned having a spate of short power cuts.
>
> Even a 5 minute backup to give the systems time for a clean shutdown can
> be helpful.
UPS units. Each cluster has a machine monitoring the UPS. When it gets to
5 minutes left, it tells the other machines to shut down, then does so
itself (after telling the UPS to switch off just a bit later).
UNfortunately I have yet managed to persuade the Windows systems to obey
the shutdown request yet. Installing NUT on those seems a bit of a
performance.
Graham J
Nov 2, 2021, 7:00:02 PM11/2/21
to
Windows servers and workstations; originally via their proprietary
serial connection, then via USB. Their software is a bit bloated but
once configured correctly it does work as expected.
Some also have a network connection but I've no experience with that
variant.
How is your stuff connected & configured?
--
Graham J
Roderick Stewart
Nov 3, 2021, 7:27:56 AM11/3/21
to
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:47:25 +0000, Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
If we were to standardise on a low voltage connector for low power
devices like modem/routers, then USB-C would be a good choice. Power
supplies, uninterruptible or otherwise, could use the Qualcomm
Quickcharge 3 standard, which is already in use for phone and tablet
chargers, where the output is normally 5V unless the device signals to
the charger that it can accept more. My phone charger switches to 9V a
few seconds after being connected to a suitably qualified phone, and
although I don't have any devices to test for higher voltages, I
understand that the system can also provide 12V or 20V outputs. This
looks like a workable standard that is already available, so would
just need to be more widely adopted, so we wouldn't need to invent
anything new.
Rod.
wrote:
devices like modem/routers, then USB-C would be a good choice. Power
supplies, uninterruptible or otherwise, could use the Qualcomm
Quickcharge 3 standard, which is already in use for phone and tablet
chargers, where the output is normally 5V unless the device signals to
the charger that it can accept more. My phone charger switches to 9V a
few seconds after being connected to a suitably qualified phone, and
although I don't have any devices to test for higher voltages, I
understand that the system can also provide 12V or 20V outputs. This
looks like a workable standard that is already available, so would
just need to be more widely adopted, so we wouldn't need to invent
anything new.
Rod.
notya...@gmail.com
Nov 3, 2021, 9:00:53 AM11/3/21
to
2. They were fibred up in 2009 - the first commercial roll out in the country*.
3. Although these were pulled, many are blown these days and I believe BT still engage the occasional ferret.
>
> Tim
* there had been a pilot at Martlesham (where else?).
notya...@gmail.com
Nov 3, 2021, 9:06:58 AM11/3/21
to
For true shut down you need to bring up a command prompt and type "shutdown /s".
PS when I was upgraded uncommanded from W8.1pro I thought it had a hardware fault as it did not happen on a lap top upgraded from W7 to W10 Home, but I eventually worked out what had happened.
Tweed
Nov 3, 2021, 9:12:24 AM11/3/21
to
notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 2 November 2021 at 22:22:14 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 21:54:50 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>
>>> Up-thread someone mentioned having a spate of short power cuts.
>>>
>>> Even a 5 minute backup to give the systems time for a clean shutdown can
>>> be helpful.
>> That's what I have set up. There are three clusters of things on three
>> UPS units. Each cluster has a machine monitoring the UPS. When it gets to
>> 5 minutes left, it tells the other machines to shut down, then does so
>> itself (after telling the UPS to switch off just a bit later).
>>
>> UNfortunately I have yet managed to persuade the Windows systems to obey
>> the shutdown request yet. Installing NUT on those seems a bit of a
>> performance.
>
> This was an "unannounced feature" that came in with W10. On systems with
> more sophisticated power control shutdown in the menus does NOT shut
> down, but puts the PC into a deeper hibernation. The reason for this is
> so W10 can quietly update itself in the middle of the night. It also
> means bumping the keyboard or other events will awaken the system.
>
> For true shut down you need to bring up a command prompt and type "shutdown /s".
>
Or hold down shift whilst selecting the menu shutdown.
> On Tuesday, 2 November 2021 at 22:22:14 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 21:54:50 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>
>>> Up-thread someone mentioned having a spate of short power cuts.
>>>
>>> Even a 5 minute backup to give the systems time for a clean shutdown can
>>> be helpful.
>> That's what I have set up. There are three clusters of things on three
>> UPS units. Each cluster has a machine monitoring the UPS. When it gets to
>> 5 minutes left, it tells the other machines to shut down, then does so
>> itself (after telling the UPS to switch off just a bit later).
>>
>> UNfortunately I have yet managed to persuade the Windows systems to obey
>> the shutdown request yet. Installing NUT on those seems a bit of a
>> performance.
>
> This was an "unannounced feature" that came in with W10. On systems with
> more sophisticated power control shutdown in the menus does NOT shut
> down, but puts the PC into a deeper hibernation. The reason for this is
> so W10 can quietly update itself in the middle of the night. It also
> means bumping the keyboard or other events will awaken the system.
>
> For true shut down you need to bring up a command prompt and type "shutdown /s".
>
Peter Johnson
Nov 3, 2021, 1:07:07 PM11/3/21
to
not far away and also built 1988, does not have ducted telecoms, I
noticed this afternoon.
Woody
Nov 3, 2021, 1:32:55 PM11/3/21
to
blow the fibre down them. The pipe is a black outer with either
(usually) four or eight incredibly smooth tubes in a sectored polythene
construction leaving enough room to get the bung in on the end of the
physical fibre.
Some years ago BBC York were having their studios refurbished so they
ran the whole show from Leeds. BT put a fibre in to an old gas board
tower (for links) about a Km across the city from the studios and I
attended to give access. A very nice lady engineer arrived, called her
mate on the phone and he set the fibre travelling. IIRC was about 1500m
and it only took about 2 mins before it popped out our end - that means
about 12.5m a second or nearly 30mph! Wow!!
Worked first time.
Mike Humphrey
Nov 3, 2021, 4:26:27 PM11/3/21
to
On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 09:51:08 -0700, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 30 October 2021 at 20:19:08 UTC+1, Java Jive wrote:
>> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
>> which I'd choose.
>
> On Saturday, 30 October 2021 at 20:19:08 UTC+1, Java Jive wrote:
>> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
>> which I'd choose.
>
> If is is a choice between 50Mbps ADSL, which I get or paying £££ for
> FTTP at 1Gbps or even ADSL at 76Mbps then I know which I'd choose. In
> much the same way I don't have a car with 700bhp engine just to go to
> the shops. OTOH there is a place for Gigabit internet - business -
> ideal to connect a busy office, in the same way a business might have a
> 44 tonne lorry with a 700bhp engine.
ADSL won't go as high as 50M - you need VDSL for that. Which only works
> FTTP at 1Gbps or even ADSL at 76Mbps then I know which I'd choose. In
> much the same way I don't have a car with 700bhp engine just to go to
> the shops. OTOH there is a place for Gigabit internet - business -
> ideal to connect a busy office, in the same way a business might have a
> 44 tonne lorry with a 700bhp engine.
over a short distance from the cabinet.
Round here the choice is ADSL at about 3M (when it works) or nothing.
While I'd be happy with VDSL at 30M, that's never going to happen - the
only way to get more than "wet string speeds" is FTTP. And once you've
gone to the trouble of installing FTTP, you might as well offer the full
speed on it.
Mike
Mike Humphrey
Nov 3, 2021, 4:32:27 PM11/3/21
to
On Wed, 03 Nov 2021 11:27:52 +0000, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> If we were to standardise on a low voltage connector for low power
> devices like modem/routers, then USB-C would be a good choice. Power
> supplies, uninterruptible or otherwise, could use the Qualcomm
> Quickcharge 3 standard, which is already in use for phone and tablet
> chargers, where the output is normally 5V unless the device signals to
> the charger that it can accept more. My phone charger switches to 9V a
> few seconds after being connected to a suitably qualified phone, and
> although I don't have any devices to test for higher voltages, I
> understand that the system can also provide 12V or 20V outputs. This
> looks like a workable standard that is already available, so would just
> need to be more widely adopted, so we wouldn't need to invent anything
> new.
The latest version of USB-PD supports voltages up to 48V and up to 240W
> If we were to standardise on a low voltage connector for low power
> devices like modem/routers, then USB-C would be a good choice. Power
> supplies, uninterruptible or otherwise, could use the Qualcomm
> Quickcharge 3 standard, which is already in use for phone and tablet
> chargers, where the output is normally 5V unless the device signals to
> the charger that it can accept more. My phone charger switches to 9V a
> few seconds after being connected to a suitably qualified phone, and
> although I don't have any devices to test for higher voltages, I
> understand that the system can also provide 12V or 20V outputs. This
> looks like a workable standard that is already available, so would just
> need to be more widely adopted, so we wouldn't need to invent anything
> new.
power. That ought to power most devices. And you can get some pretty big
power banks, so runtime shouldn't be an issue.
Mike
Woody
Nov 3, 2021, 5:00:56 PM11/3/21
to
system to get Interweb access?
Or even find a used mi-fi unit (try uk.webuy.com) and get an unlimited
data SIM. Works a treat.
Adrian Caspersz
Nov 4, 2021, 2:34:54 AM11/4/21
to
On 02/11/2021 22:59, Graham J wrote:
>
> I've used APC (now owned by Schneider) UPSes to shut down and restart
> Windows servers and workstations; originally via their proprietary
> serial connection, then via USB. Their software is a bit bloated but
> once configured correctly it does work as expected.
>
> Some also have a network connection but I've no experience with that
> variant.
>
> How is your stuff connected & configured?
>
My old server was connected to a APC consumer UPS, that did not have
>
> I've used APC (now owned by Schneider) UPSes to shut down and restart
> Windows servers and workstations; originally via their proprietary
> serial connection, then via USB. Their software is a bit bloated but
> once configured correctly it does work as expected.
>
> Some also have a network connection but I've no experience with that
> variant.
>
> How is your stuff connected & configured?
>
support for their paid for PowerChute software.
However windows server 2012R2 was able, through a USB driver, to see the
battery state in a manner similar to how a built in laptop battery is
monitored.
So that bit was configured like a laptop with alarms, task bar battery
status, and controlled shutdown.
--
Adrian C
Mike Humphrey
Nov 4, 2021, 3:54:29 AM11/4/21
to
roof. Works much better than ADSL. Though the speed isn't that good,
latency is high, and both vary a lot. If FTTP was on offer I'd go for it
even if expensive, but last time I looked into it we were looking at
£150,000 install cost. Get that down to £5k or so and I'd sign up in no
time. And I'm not in the middle of nowhere - 3 miles to the village
centre and 10 miles to the city.
Mike
Woody
Nov 4, 2021, 4:34:15 AM11/4/21
to
cheap but their 4G coverage is nothing like as good as the others. IME
O2 is on balance probably the best with VF not far behind largely since
they often share infrastructure. If you use O2 by means of GiffGaff you
get the best of both worlds.
Tweed
Nov 4, 2021, 4:41:48 AM11/4/21
to
frequency band allocations and differing amounts of allocated bandwidth
even on the same band. O2 is traditionally short of spectrum compared to
Vodafone, though that will change as the newly purchased spectrum starts to
be used. O2 and its virtual operators have more customers per Hz of
spectrum.
Chris Green
Nov 4, 2021, 5:18:05 AM11/4/21
to
live in rural South Suffolk the *only* network with 4G coverage that
works indoors is Three. So for any particular location you need to
check coverage maps carefully.
As it happens we're lucky and have solid, reliable FTTC which
consistently bangs against the end-stops at 80Mb/s down and 20Mb/s up
so we don't need to resort to 4G.
--
Chris Green
·
Martin Brown
Nov 4, 2021, 8:55:15 AM11/4/21
to
On 31/10/2021 18:04, Graham J wrote:
> Tweed wrote:
>> Long term maintenance costs for fibre are also reckoned to be much lower.
>>
>
> Pity they don't get on and do it then.
They are doing. Much to my surprise I got an email this week saying that
there is now an option for going fibre to premises in my village. It has
just gone live this week. They have been faffing about for three months
installing it with road closures and a lot of disruption. Poles have
sprouted a "caution fibre above" yellow plaque on each one.
There is a little snag. I'm in contract with EE for another 20 months.
If I upgrade to full fibre with them I will lose my geographic landline
entirely. They are strictly fibre only - no landline.
Their solution is to offer me a deal with their parent company BT who
with a bit of haggling have given me a decent deal on PAYG landline with
full fibre 100 and a one month trial of the 500 service included as a
sweetener. I think that will allow me to test their infra structure.
It is Gigabit fibre: 900 is available for a price (10% exaggeration)
Basically BT takes me on as a customer and pays my termination of
contract fee to EE. It will be nice to be on a fast reliable internet
connection if it works out OK. Installation scheduled in 2 weeks time.
It is very confusing in my situation since I am very rural and there are
literally no cabinets. I have an Exchange Only line. My nearest FTTC
enabled cabinet is further from me than the exchange (about 3 miles).
Unclear where the fibre runs back to. My local exchange still claims not
to offer these full fibre services according to the usual sources.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
> Tweed wrote:
>> Long term maintenance costs for fibre are also reckoned to be much lower.
>>
>
> Pity they don't get on and do it then.
They are doing. Much to my surprise I got an email this week saying that
there is now an option for going fibre to premises in my village. It has
just gone live this week. They have been faffing about for three months
installing it with road closures and a lot of disruption. Poles have
sprouted a "caution fibre above" yellow plaque on each one.
There is a little snag. I'm in contract with EE for another 20 months.
If I upgrade to full fibre with them I will lose my geographic landline
entirely. They are strictly fibre only - no landline.
Their solution is to offer me a deal with their parent company BT who
with a bit of haggling have given me a decent deal on PAYG landline with
full fibre 100 and a one month trial of the 500 service included as a
sweetener. I think that will allow me to test their infra structure.
It is Gigabit fibre: 900 is available for a price (10% exaggeration)
Basically BT takes me on as a customer and pays my termination of
contract fee to EE. It will be nice to be on a fast reliable internet
connection if it works out OK. Installation scheduled in 2 weeks time.
It is very confusing in my situation since I am very rural and there are
literally no cabinets. I have an Exchange Only line. My nearest FTTC
enabled cabinet is further from me than the exchange (about 3 miles).
Unclear where the fibre runs back to. My local exchange still claims not
to offer these full fibre services according to the usual sources.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Chris
Nov 4, 2021, 9:16:40 AM11/4/21
to
Adrian Caspersz <em...@here.invalid> wrote:
> On 01/11/2021 14:15, Chris wrote:
>> On 31/10/2021 12:28, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>
>>> High speed internet is great, but aren't there other things in this
>>> country that need taken care of first?
>>
>> Given that broadband is an expectation that everyone has (e.g. schooling
>> via Teams/Zoom) I'd say not. However, we do need to help much more with
>> access and training. It's no good telling 80 yo Gwen that she now has
>> FTTP when she hasn't got the first clue.
>>
>> A lot of vulnerable people are being left behind in the name of progress.
>>
>
> The current OS GUI platforms are useless, they rely too much on memory
> and intuition.
>
> Users ...
>
> * Have to be of an inquisitive mind and wanting.
> * Can't deploy the majority of actions as a sequence of learned
> instructions (rote). They should deal with handling exceptions instead.
> * Have to understand choices and why to make them.
> * Should comprehend jargon.
>
> In everyday life most people (apart from disabilities) manage the above
> list quite well in their circle of expertise, but computers/phones are
> outside that - and ye still get the feeling that "If you wanted to
> understand Coronation Street, too late - you should have watched it from
> the beginning"
>
> I'm not in favour of promoting the dumbing down of things, but some have
> clearly walked into this IT uselessness trap where in the past thirty
> years others haven't.
>
> Put AI powered voice assistants on standby, they will be needed.
I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that.
> On 01/11/2021 14:15, Chris wrote:
>> On 31/10/2021 12:28, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>
>>> High speed internet is great, but aren't there other things in this
>>> country that need taken care of first?
>>
>> Given that broadband is an expectation that everyone has (e.g. schooling
>> via Teams/Zoom) I'd say not. However, we do need to help much more with
>> access and training. It's no good telling 80 yo Gwen that she now has
>> FTTP when she hasn't got the first clue.
>>
>> A lot of vulnerable people are being left behind in the name of progress.
>>
>
> The current OS GUI platforms are useless, they rely too much on memory
> and intuition.
>
> Users ...
>
> * Have to be of an inquisitive mind and wanting.
> * Can't deploy the majority of actions as a sequence of learned
> instructions (rote). They should deal with handling exceptions instead.
> * Have to understand choices and why to make them.
> * Should comprehend jargon.
>
> In everyday life most people (apart from disabilities) manage the above
> list quite well in their circle of expertise, but computers/phones are
> outside that - and ye still get the feeling that "If you wanted to
> understand Coronation Street, too late - you should have watched it from
> the beginning"
>
> I'm not in favour of promoting the dumbing down of things, but some have
> clearly walked into this IT uselessness trap where in the past thirty
> years others haven't.
>
> Put AI powered voice assistants on standby, they will be needed.
I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that.
Graham J
Nov 4, 2021, 9:38:26 AM11/4/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> On 31/10/2021 18:04, Graham J wrote:
>> Tweed wrote:
>
>>> Long term maintenance costs for fibre are also reckoned to be much
>>> lower.
>>>
>>
>> Pity they don't get on and do it then.
>
> They are doing. Much to my surprise I got an email this week saying that
> there is now an option for going fibre to premises in my village. It has
> just gone live this week. They have been faffing about for three months
> installing it with road closures and a lot of disruption. Poles have
> sprouted a "caution fibre above" yellow plaque on each one.
>
> There is a little snag. I'm in contract with EE for another 20 months.
> If I upgrade to full fibre with them I will lose my geographic landline
> entirely. They are strictly fibre only - no landline.
So get a VoIP phone system and port your landline number to it. I've
> On 31/10/2021 18:04, Graham J wrote:
>> Tweed wrote:
>
>>> Long term maintenance costs for fibre are also reckoned to be much
>>> lower.
>>>
>>
>> Pity they don't get on and do it then.
>
> They are doing. Much to my surprise I got an email this week saying that
> there is now an option for going fibre to premises in my village. It has
> just gone live this week. They have been faffing about for three months
> installing it with road closures and a lot of disruption. Poles have
> sprouted a "caution fibre above" yellow plaque on each one.
>
> There is a little snag. I'm in contract with EE for another 20 months.
> If I upgrade to full fibre with them I will lose my geographic landline
> entirely. They are strictly fibre only - no landline.
used Voipfone in the past and found them very good. There are others.
> Unclear where the fibre runs back to. My local exchange still claims not
> to offer these full fibre services according to the usual sources.
direct to a (possibly quite distant) major exchange. Your local
exchange may actually cease to exist if/when everybody it serves is
upgraded to FTTP. It is this sort of saving, plus the recovered copper
wires, which is the financial driver for the upgrade to FTTP.
--
Graham J
Andy Burns
Nov 4, 2021, 10:11:27 AM11/4/21
to
Martin Brown wrote:
> I am very rural and there are literally no cabinets. I have an Exchange Only
> line. My nearest FTTC enabled cabinet is further from me than the exchange
> (about 3 miles). Unclear where the fibre runs back to.
Adrian Caspersz
Nov 5, 2021, 12:09:24 PM11/5/21
to
On 03/11/2021 13:00, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> 2. They were fibred up in 2009 - the first commercial roll out in the country*.
> 3. Although these were pulled, many are blown these days and I believe BT still engage the occasional ferret.
Ferrets: The World's Cutest Working Cable Guys | Superpets
> 2. They were fibred up in 2009 - the first commercial roll out in the country*.
> 3. Although these were pulled, many are blown these days and I believe BT still engage the occasional ferret.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL4zI6rXjI4
Awwwww ...
--
Adrian C
notya...@gmail.com
Nov 6, 2021, 2:13:30 PM11/6/21
to
On Wednesday, 3 November 2021 at 20:26:27 UTC, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 09:51:08 -0700, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, 30 October 2021 at 20:19:08 UTC+1, Java Jive wrote:
> >> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
> >> which I'd choose.
> >
> > If is is a choice between 50Mbps ADSL, which I get or paying £££ for
> > FTTP at 1Gbps or even ADSL at 76Mbps then I know which I'd choose. In
> > much the same way I don't have a car with 700bhp engine just to go to
> > the shops. OTOH there is a place for Gigabit internet - business -
> > ideal to connect a busy office, in the same way a business might have a
> > 44 tonne lorry with a 700bhp engine.
> ADSL won't go as high as 50M - you need VDSL for that. Which only works
> over a short distance from the cabinet.
True, if you make that distinction, my ADSL was upgraded to VDSL some years ago and first offered in 2009.
> On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 09:51:08 -0700, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, 30 October 2021 at 20:19:08 UTC+1, Java Jive wrote:
> >> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
> >> which I'd choose.
> >
> > If is is a choice between 50Mbps ADSL, which I get or paying £££ for
> > FTTP at 1Gbps or even ADSL at 76Mbps then I know which I'd choose. In
> > much the same way I don't have a car with 700bhp engine just to go to
> > the shops. OTOH there is a place for Gigabit internet - business -
> > ideal to connect a busy office, in the same way a business might have a
> > 44 tonne lorry with a 700bhp engine.
> ADSL won't go as high as 50M - you need VDSL for that. Which only works
> over a short distance from the cabinet.
> Round here the choice is ADSL at about 3M (when it works) or nothing.
> While I'd be happy with VDSL at 30M, that's never going to happen - the
> only way to get more than "wet string speeds" is FTTP.
Mike Humphrey
Nov 6, 2021, 2:54:39 PM11/6/21
to
have FTTC available. The nearest one is 2.4 miles from my house (by road,
which is probably the same route the cable takes). There are no cabinets
along the road, just cable joints in manholes. VDSL doesn't work at that
sort of distance.
The exchange is 2.6 miles, so ADSL ought to work. But the cable is
"direct buried" just under the grass if you're lucky, and it's in very
poor condition.
Mike
Martin Brown
Nov 7, 2021, 8:31:03 AM11/7/21
to
On 06/11/2021 18:13, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 3 November 2021 at 20:26:27 UTC, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 09:51:08 -0700, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 30 October 2021 at 20:19:08 UTC+1, Java Jive wrote:
>>>> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
>>>> which I'd choose.
>>>
>>> If is is a choice between 50Mbps ADSL, which I get or paying £££ for
>>> FTTP at 1Gbps or even ADSL at 76Mbps then I know which I'd choose. In
>>> much the same way I don't have a car with 700bhp engine just to go to
>>> the shops. OTOH there is a place for Gigabit internet - business -
The full fibre options aren't that far out of line with what a rural
> On Wednesday, 3 November 2021 at 20:26:27 UTC, Mike Humphrey wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 09:51:08 -0700, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 30 October 2021 at 20:19:08 UTC+1, Java Jive wrote:
>>>> If it's a choice between ADSL at wet string speeds and FTTP, I know
>>>> which I'd choose.
>>>
>>> If is is a choice between 50Mbps ADSL, which I get or paying £££ for
>>> FTTP at 1Gbps or even ADSL at 76Mbps then I know which I'd choose. In
>>> much the same way I don't have a car with 700bhp engine just to go to
>>> the shops. OTOH there is a place for Gigabit internet - business -
user gets ripped off for a normal ADSL connection. Opt for the lowest
possible FTTP speed and they will up sell you to the next one up with a
discount. Ask for at least one step below what you really want.
>>> ideal to connect a busy office, in the same way a business might have a
>>> 44 tonne lorry with a 700bhp engine.
>> ADSL won't go as high as 50M - you need VDSL for that. Which only works
>> over a short distance from the cabinet.
>
> True, if you make that distinction, my ADSL was upgraded to VDSL some years ago and first offered in 2009.
most 1200m from the cabinet. Most rural homes are much further from a
cabinet than that. Many lines have no cabinet at all like mine. They are
exchange only aka EO lines and have no cabinet number. When they upgrade
to provide FTTC they put a cabinet close to the exchange for them but
that is even further away from me than the exchange is >3 miles.
Interference from VDSL means it cannot coexist inside the exchange.
There was a trial of the ill fated FTTRN in Yorkshire. It combined all
the costs and overhead of a full cabinet with all the disadvantages of
only serving about half a dozen houses. It was a total disaster!
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/02/bt-fttrn-superfast-broadband-tech-trial-goes-live-north-yorkshire.html
>
>> Round here the choice is ADSL at about 3M (when it works) or nothing.
>> While I'd be happy with VDSL at 30M, that's never going to happen - the
>> only way to get more than "wet string speeds" is FTTP.
>
> Why? Are you literally miles from a cabinet?
In many rural areas there are no cabinets just wires in the ground and
>> Round here the choice is ADSL at about 3M (when it works) or nothing.
>> While I'd be happy with VDSL at 30M, that's never going to happen - the
>> only way to get more than "wet string speeds" is FTTP.
>
> Why? Are you literally miles from a cabinet?
corroded copper connections that are sometimes flooded with water in
winter. The larger villages have a cabinet somewhere near the middle.
ADSL2+ was a marginal improvement but my connection is unstable even
with the maximum possible level of error correction ping time 40-100ms.
The really unlucky ones have a horrid mix of aluminium and copper wires
which BT will swear blind do not exist. It messes up ADSL something bad.
>> And once you've
>> gone to the trouble of installing FTTP, you might as well offer the full
>> speed on it.
>>
>> Mike
a free months trial of the 500M service thrown in as a sweetener. I have
opted for the 100M service (upto 150M) which is 20x faster than the
fastest I can ever hope for at present (many things take overnight).
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Chris Green
Nov 7, 2021, 12:03:09 PM11/7/21
to
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
> In many rural areas there are no cabinets just wires in the ground and
> corroded copper connections that are sometimes flooded with water in
> winter. The larger villages have a cabinet somewhere near the middle.
>
We live in a small (tiny?) village, 100 houses, 200 or so inhabitants.
>
> In many rural areas there are no cabinets just wires in the ground and
> corroded copper connections that are sometimes flooded with water in
> winter. The larger villages have a cabinet somewhere near the middle.
>
There are at *least* two cabinets here and probably more.
--
Chris Green
·
Graham J
Nov 7, 2021, 12:25:43 PM11/7/21
to
village, so at least half the population are about 1km from their
nearest cabinet. So VDSL speeds of 25 Mbits/sec down and 2.5 Mbits/sec
up are fairly common. Reliability isn't very good - it's no better than
my backup ADSL that goes all the way to the exchange about 6 km away
--
Graham J
NY
Nov 7, 2021, 4:57:28 PM11/7/21
to
"Graham J" <nob...@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sm926l$jod$1...@dont-email.me...
Where we used to live (temporarily) the phone line was a direct route back
to the exchange about 5 km away as the crow flies and maybe 6 km along the
most direct road route.
The ADSL was rock solid and reliable... but the speed was about 0.8 Mbps
down and 0.2 Mbps up. I once downloaded a 4 GB update to my wife's satnav in
her car, and that took overnight to download. But it arrived intact.
Even when there was a line fault which caused lack of voice/dialling tone,
the ADSL continued at almost that speed (until BT OR started to
investigate), which shows that ADSL doesn't always need a complete circuit.
Getting the fault sorted out was an interesting one, because BT OR
discovered that their diagram of the route that the phone lines took was
incorrect, and it took two engineers (the original one and a second one
called along to help) three days to restore service.
The village consists of two farms and five houses in the "centre" plus a few
more farms/houses several hundred metres from one to the next along the
roads leading in/out. I doubt whether FTTC (or even a cabinet!) will ever be
offered. Ironically, one of the access roads goes past a collection of green
cabinets plastered with stickers advertising FTTC, which is galling for the
people nearby who can't get it. I wonder whether a fibre will be laid to
the village when copper is removed and FTTP+VOIP is the only way of getting
voice.
news:sm926l$jod$1...@dont-email.me...
to the exchange about 5 km away as the crow flies and maybe 6 km along the
most direct road route.
The ADSL was rock solid and reliable... but the speed was about 0.8 Mbps
down and 0.2 Mbps up. I once downloaded a 4 GB update to my wife's satnav in
her car, and that took overnight to download. But it arrived intact.
Even when there was a line fault which caused lack of voice/dialling tone,
the ADSL continued at almost that speed (until BT OR started to
investigate), which shows that ADSL doesn't always need a complete circuit.
Getting the fault sorted out was an interesting one, because BT OR
discovered that their diagram of the route that the phone lines took was
incorrect, and it took two engineers (the original one and a second one
called along to help) three days to restore service.
The village consists of two farms and five houses in the "centre" plus a few
more farms/houses several hundred metres from one to the next along the
roads leading in/out. I doubt whether FTTC (or even a cabinet!) will ever be
offered. Ironically, one of the access roads goes past a collection of green
cabinets plastered with stickers advertising FTTC, which is galling for the
people nearby who can't get it. I wonder whether a fibre will be laid to
the village when copper is removed and FTTP+VOIP is the only way of getting
voice.
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