Powerline and wifi

[Woody]

Does anyone know, can a powerline wi-fi extender be used in reverse?

Specifically can the wi-fi unit but put in the same room as the wi-fi
router but across the other side, and the other (non-wifi) unit be
plugged in upstairs to provide an Ethernet connection to a computer?

I have suggested to the user that a (non-wifi) powerline pair would do
the job but unfortunately the only power socket available adjacent to
the router is on a mains extension block - the single wall socket is
partially behind a bookcase so not accessible.

[Tweed]

Why can’t the power line device go on the same extension block as the
router? I know it is folk lore that power line adapters can’t be fitted to
extension blocks, but in my experience that’s not true. My own unit is sat
on a six way block with all the other IT gadgets. It works just fine.

I also cannot see anything in basic electrical/RF theory why an extension
strip would be an issue.

I can understand that a power strip with an integral mains filter might
cause issues, but you can easily eliminate that possibility.

Or have I misunderstood your original post?

[David Wade]

Whats a "powerline WiFi wxtender" , I suppose something that has a
separate receiver and extends over the WiFi.

If there is a WiFi signal near the computer then one of these

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07ZWBBPQN/

will connect to the WiFi and provide an Ethernet port.

Dave

[Tweed]

With a bit more thought, I can see an indirect objection to the use of a
mains strip. It might allow other devices that themselves have intentional
or even unintentional filters in their mains side circuitry to be plugged
in close the power line adapter. But as I said earlier, I’ve got mine on a
six way strip with the rest of my IT kit with no ill effects.

[Philip Hole]

I have a problem with one of my extension blocks.

This one is a tower block with a two way switch on the top connecting to
two surge detectors.

Most blocks are very basic with the wiring just parallel connections
between the sockets and the mains plug.

Flop

[Tweed]

I was just pondering surge protectors. I’ve never really given much thought
to their RF performance. Maybe they present as a shorting capacitance. I
don’t think the data sheets cover this aspect.

[David Wade]

I seem to get issues when I them on separate rings which are on a split
consumer unit, so with two RCDs between the parts.

Dave

[Tweed]

RCDs depend on current imbalance transformers, and it may be the inductance
introduced by that that is sufficient to impede the RF.

[Woody]

Per the Amazon item there is already one in place on the house landing
and it keeps loosing contact with the (new) PN router - it was much
better on the old PN router but that kept loosing Interweb connection!

A powerline extender is a pair of plug-in units that send your network
over the mains wiring with Ethernet connections at both ends. The wifi
version has a wifi unit in the remote end as well as the Ethernet
connection to enhance wifi coverage.

I have tried powerline over my house wiring and from a real figure of
around 110Mb incoming (on VM) I am getting about 37Mb in my garden shed.
However if I plug the router-end unit into a non-filtered mains
distribution block rather than the wall socket the shed end can be as
low as 1.5Mb although it is usually nearer 6Mb.

My query is into the the possibility of the wifi plug unit being in the
same room as the router but on the only other wall socket, with the dumb
end being upstairs with the laptop. I realise I will have to fix both
the router and extender channels to be the same, and also have to fix
the extender IP address so that it is in the same range as the router
but outside the DHCP range so that they will always link correctly.

[Martin Brown]

On 18/12/2020 09:02, Tweed wrote:

> Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Does anyone know, can a powerline wi-fi extender be used in reverse?
>>
>> Specifically can the wi-fi unit but put in the same room as the wi-fi
>> router but across the other side, and the other (non-wifi) unit be
>> plugged in upstairs to provide an Ethernet connection to a computer?
>>
>> I have suggested to the user that a (non-wifi) powerline pair would do
>> the job but unfortunately the only power socket available adjacent to
>> the router is on a mains extension block - the single wall socket is
>> partially behind a bookcase so not accessible.
>>
>
> Why can’t the power line device go on the same extension block as the
> router? I know it is folk lore that power line adapters can’t be fitted to
> extension blocks, but in my experience that’s not true. My own unit is sat
> on a six way block with all the other IT gadgets. It works just fine.

It is worth a try. Worst that can happen is unreliable or poor speed.

It is a bit pot luck if you do this since many power strips intended for
hifi or computers have filters and surge protection which can severely
attenuate the signal. That said my powerline adapters work across two
different ring mains at least fast enough for web browsing and printing.


I wouldn't want to do a backup over it though.

>
> I also cannot see anything in basic electrical/RF theory why an extension
> strip would be an issue.

The filters and surge suppression don't let the signal out.
A cheap and nasty one might well work better than a high end unit!

> I can understand that a power strip with an integral mains filter might
> cause issues, but you can easily eliminate that possibility.
>
> Or have I misunderstood your original post?

I don't see any reason why you can't put the Wifi capable line adapter
in one room and use it to wirelessly connect to the router and provide a
link on the power line. Subject to getting all the settings right.

The one I found hardest to set up was accept input from ethernet cable
and provide a pass through and provide a new Wifi node. It would only
work if you got absolutely every setting right first time. Once
configured into that mode the only way back in was a factory reset.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[NY]

"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:rri9jv$5ru$1...@dont-email.me...

> My query is into the the possibility of the wifi plug unit being in the
> same room as the router but on the only other wall socket, with the dumb
> end being upstairs with the laptop. I realise I will have to fix both the
> router and extender channels to be the same, and also have to fix the
> extender IP address so that it is in the same range as the router but
> outside the DHCP range so that they will always link correctly.

Is it possible for you to run Ethernet from the router to a non-wifi
Powerline device? Or are they too far apart and is visibility of the cable
an issue?

I would always put all devices with static IP addresses (eg the extenders in
your case) on the same subnet as your DHCP scope (but outside the range) so
everything is in the same subnet. If it's not a different subnet then it's
possible that the router will not let a PC on one subnet talk to the
extender's own web page on another subnet.

[Java Jive]

On 18/12/2020 09:52, David Wade wrote:
>
> If there is a WiFi signal near the computer then one of these
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07ZWBBPQN/
>
> will connect to the WiFi and provide an Ethernet port.

Yes, although I've not tried one of those.

Alternatively, if there is someone tech-savvy enough around to help, you
can buy an old cable router, say a Cisco WRT320N, used via eBay, put a
DD-WRT or Open-WRT build on it, and configure it as a client bridge.
You can then use its cable LAN ports to connect over the client bridge's
WiFi back to the base router. A bit of a fag to set up, but it works
well for me. I use one to avoid having to run an ethernet cable up to
the bedroom.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[notya...@gmail.com]

Why don't you just use Wi-Fi range extender like say https://www.tp-link.com/uk/home-networking/range-extender/

Can even work between buildings and start at <£15. Extends the Wi-Fi with the same or different net name and has an RJ45 port.

[Woody]

Just the point - that is what he is already using. His house was built
in the 30's (I think) and has brick walls throughout and the external
walls are also solid brick with no cavity. From outside the front of the
house - the left side of a semi - the broadband enters front bottom
right. The door our of the front room is back left, the staircase is a
double-back from the lounge door to the dividing wall and then about
another six stairs and all the walls around the stairs are brick. The
laptop is in the back right bedroom close to the dividing wall. The
extender is in a landing socket opposite the top of the stairs.

As I said in an earlier post the extender used to work fairly reliably
with their old PN (Huawei) router but that router kept loosing line
sync, so after a complaint they sent him a new router (type unknown) and
shoved him up to 39Mb (from about 13Mb) f.o.c. The connection between
the router and the extender fails most nights so I am wondering if the
router is going to sleep when not in use - as the TT routers do.

Unfortunately I cannot get access at the moment due to T2 restrictions
plus my friend has just had a knee op so has to isolate.

[Graham J]

Woody wrote:

[snip]

The only sensible solution is to install Cat5 cable.

If you use outdoor grade cable you can fix it on the outside of the
exterior wall, go up into the roof space, across, and down into the back
right bedroom.

Yes you will need to drill a couple of 6mm holes in the brickwork, and
fit proper RJ45 sockets on the interior walls.

You could in principle use this Cat5 cable to extend the unfiltered
incoming phone line and fit the router at the other end.

--
Graham J

[Tweed]

It’s not the *only* sensible solution. A mesh network kit will also work
wonders. I’ve used BT whole home Wi-Fi disks in various large student
houses that my son has inhabited. I’ve got Linksys Velop devices in my own
house.

[Woody]

AIUI mesh uses 5GHz for the interconnection - what I don't know is if
the new router provides 5G, the old one certainly did not.

[Tweed]

The two mesh networks I mentioned are independent of the router’s Wi-Fi,
which you can turn off if you want. All mine have been three unit models.
You connect one unit to the router via Ethernet. That unit then establishes
private backhaul links via 5GHz to the other units. You need to be careful
and thoughtful as to where you locate the other units since they need a
good link tithe first unit and also then to your device, so somewhere in
the middle. What I’ve found is you need to think vertically - walls,
especially foil covered plasterboard, are bad but suspended wooden floors
are practically transparent to 5GHz. The more expensive mesh units have
three radios, 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz for links to the user equipment, and an
additional 5GHz private link for the backhaul to the other units.

They also win over the router’s Wi-Fi as they tend to have better designed
radios and antenna systems, usually with beam forming.

My Linksys Velop has superb performance, maintaining my 200 Mbit/sec Virgin
Media speed through the house and out into the back garden. Devices, such
as my iPad, will also dynamically hand over from one unit to the other if
you move around the house.

[Andy Burns]

Woody wrote:

> AIUI mesh uses 5GHz for the interconnection - what I don't know is if
> the new router provides 5G, the old one certainly did not.

Some mesh units have triple radios (2.4 and 5 GHz for clients to
connect, plus another 5 GHz for the mesh) e.g. Linksys Velop as supplied
by GigaClear

<https://www.linksys.com/gb/p/P-WHW0301>

[Roderick Stewart]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 09:52:24 +0000, David Wade <g4...@dave.invalid>
wrote:

This is an even more flexible device, and might do what you want-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/D-Link-Wireless-DAP-1665-Access-Point/dp/B00KZRTWRK

You can configure it as a normal wireless access point (ethernet in,
wireless out) or a bridge (wireless in, ethernet out), or a wireless
extender (wireless in, wireless out). I understand you can also set up
a pair of them in a "point to point" arrangement which effectively
makes a sort of private wireless channel that other devices cannot
see, though I haven't ried that.

The Edimax 7228 is similar, though it only works on 2.5GHz, whereas
the D-Link device is dual band and can also work on 5GHz.

They're a lot of fun and games to set up, because of course you need a
connection of some sort to the device to do this, and not all of the
configurations use the DHCP server in the device but depend on the
computer and the device both already having IP addresses in the same
range, but once you've got the hang of it, they can be very useful.

Rod.

[NY]

"Graham J" <nob...@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rrjbp0$3ra$1...@dont-email.me...

How do the wires in Cat 5 connect to an RJ45 socket? Are there separate
screw terminals for each wire, or are the wires crimp-fitted into something
about the size of an RJ45 *plug*? Even with a proper RJ45 plug crimping
tool, I never managed to get all the wires into the correct holes in the
plug and to get electrical contact with all the wires. There was always at
least one wire that pulled out of the plug.

[Woody]

IDC - Insulation Displacement Connector - also as used by BT for phone
lines. Properly connected with the proper tool they will work for ever.

[Chris Green]

I'm surprised you find it difficult. I've made up a few cables over
the years (have a 'proper' but quite cheap crimp tool) and while I get
a few failures (I have a simple tester too) most of the patch leads
I've made have lasted OK, many years outside in one case.

--
Chris Green
·

[Graham J]

You need the correct punchdown tool. Google will find wiring
information, for example:

<https://videplus.com/2018/03/27/rj45-wiring-for-cat5-cat5e-cat6-cable-rj45-jack-sockets/>

Much easier to wire the sockets than the plugs. Best to buy the patch
leads ready-made and tested.

--
Graham J

[NY]

"Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message
news:f5i1bh-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...

I gave up after my tenth attempt on one cable, which was getting
progressively shorter as I had to cut off each failed connector to strip
back more cable and try to feed the right wires into the right terminals and
then get all the wires to stay put while I crimped. Every single sodding
connector had at least one wire that failed to make contact, apart from one
connector that had all the wires making perfect contact - but two of the
wires had got swapped over.

I was obviously doing something fundamentally wrong, and missing something
very obvious, because most people don't have any problem.

[NY]

"Graham J" <nob...@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in message

news:rrlme0$8h4$1...@dont-email.me...

> You need the correct punchdown tool. Google will find wiring information,
> for example:
>
> <https://videplus.com/2018/03/27/rj45-wiring-for-cat5-cat5e-cat6-cable-rj45-jack-sockets/>
>
> Much easier to wire the sockets than the plugs. Best to buy the patch
> leads ready-made and tested.

Ah! The plugs I was sold had holes, at the opposite end to the pins, into
which you fed the wires. Once all eight wires were pushed fully to the
terminals, I used the tool to crimp the plug just behind the terminals to
perform the IDC. I used what I was supplied with and never questioned
whether there was an easier way by using a different design of plug.

[RayG]

On 18/12/2020 08:39, Woody wrote:
> Does anyone know, can a powerline wi-fi extender be used in reverse?
>
> Specifically can the wi-fi unit but put in the same room as the wi-fi router but
> across the other side, and the other (non-wifi) unit be plugged in upstairs to
> provide an Ethernet connection to a computer?
>
> I have suggested to the user that a (non-wifi) powerline pair would do the job
> but unfortunately the only power socket available adjacent to the router is on a
> mains extension block - the single wall socket is partially behind a bookcase so
> not accessible.

Can you not use a powerline adapter with a 13amp Passthrough socket?

https://shop.bt.com/category/networking,network-devices,powerline-adapters/11301-59040000

Better still a mesh system?

https://shop.bt.com/products/bt-mini-whole-home-wi-fi---three-discs-096450-F7C0.html?src=15

The discs work very well - but I suspect it depends on which router you are using.

--
Regards

RayG