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Persuading BT OPenreach to investigate broadband problem
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NY
Aug 24, 2017, 11:41:45 AM8/24/17
to
A client of mine lives at the end of a long phone line in a rural location.
He knows that his broadband speed will not be very fast.
But he is getting an unusual symptom. His router (BT HomeHub 5) always
reports speeds of about 1.2 Mbps down and 0.448 Mbps up, but he
intermittently gets no internet access.
I have seen this by running "ping news.bbc.co.uk" tests. At best he gets
response times of about 120 msec, but at other times the ping speed
increases to 3500-4000 msec, or else the test times-out altogether. All
along, the router's reported sync speed is still 1.2/0.45.
Restarting the router or unplugging the DSL cable tends to improve things
for a few minutes, but then it goes bad again, maybe with a spontaneous
improvement at some point.
Because the router reliably syncs, BT Openreach believe that it's not a line
problem, even though there are times when no data passes (eg ping test or
web browsing).
So a very intermittent problem.
I've been to inspect his setup today, and he has a simple BT drop cable from
pole to master socket - a continuous cable to within 1 metre of the master
socket, with a BT junction box to join the drop cable to the cable the runs
the last metre. There are no cables tee-ed into this drop cable, and there
is no extension wiring connected to the faceplate or connected to the
incoming wiring within the master socket.
Unfortunately the HomeHub 5 doesn't list any line stats like noise margin
and attenuation, and I didn't have my Netgear router with me that gives
those stats.
I've tried with a different hub (BT sent him a replacement HomeHub 5),
different filter and different RJ45 cable between filter and router.
His laptop is connected to the router by Ethernet - so wifi doesn't enter
the equation. I've tried with my laptop to eliminate anything weird with his
TCP config.
But when he raises the problem with BT Internet, his ISP, and they
commission a BT Openreach engineer to investigate, the response he gets is
"there's no point in my coming out - it's a fault with your own wiring".
Apparently they have twice been commissioned to investigate and have twice
cancelled.
I've proved that it's not a fault with his own wiring because he doesn't
have any house extension wiring - just a drop cable and a BT Master Socket
with faceplate.
How should we get this problem progressed? If an ISP says "we need BT
Openreach to investigate" and Openreach say "it's a customer line fault"
(from remote tests, without a home visit), where do you go from there?
The problem has dragged on for several months with intermittent service
which ranges from poor but usable to totally unusable.
Can BT wash their hands of the problem if the line is "too long" or has poor
quality cable or joints somewhere between house and exchange?
He knows that his broadband speed will not be very fast.
But he is getting an unusual symptom. His router (BT HomeHub 5) always
reports speeds of about 1.2 Mbps down and 0.448 Mbps up, but he
intermittently gets no internet access.
I have seen this by running "ping news.bbc.co.uk" tests. At best he gets
response times of about 120 msec, but at other times the ping speed
increases to 3500-4000 msec, or else the test times-out altogether. All
along, the router's reported sync speed is still 1.2/0.45.
Restarting the router or unplugging the DSL cable tends to improve things
for a few minutes, but then it goes bad again, maybe with a spontaneous
improvement at some point.
Because the router reliably syncs, BT Openreach believe that it's not a line
problem, even though there are times when no data passes (eg ping test or
web browsing).
So a very intermittent problem.
I've been to inspect his setup today, and he has a simple BT drop cable from
pole to master socket - a continuous cable to within 1 metre of the master
socket, with a BT junction box to join the drop cable to the cable the runs
the last metre. There are no cables tee-ed into this drop cable, and there
is no extension wiring connected to the faceplate or connected to the
incoming wiring within the master socket.
Unfortunately the HomeHub 5 doesn't list any line stats like noise margin
and attenuation, and I didn't have my Netgear router with me that gives
those stats.
I've tried with a different hub (BT sent him a replacement HomeHub 5),
different filter and different RJ45 cable between filter and router.
His laptop is connected to the router by Ethernet - so wifi doesn't enter
the equation. I've tried with my laptop to eliminate anything weird with his
TCP config.
But when he raises the problem with BT Internet, his ISP, and they
commission a BT Openreach engineer to investigate, the response he gets is
"there's no point in my coming out - it's a fault with your own wiring".
Apparently they have twice been commissioned to investigate and have twice
cancelled.
I've proved that it's not a fault with his own wiring because he doesn't
have any house extension wiring - just a drop cable and a BT Master Socket
with faceplate.
How should we get this problem progressed? If an ISP says "we need BT
Openreach to investigate" and Openreach say "it's a customer line fault"
(from remote tests, without a home visit), where do you go from there?
The problem has dragged on for several months with intermittent service
which ranges from poor but usable to totally unusable.
Can BT wash their hands of the problem if the line is "too long" or has poor
quality cable or joints somewhere between house and exchange?
Dick
Aug 24, 2017, 12:52:57 PM8/24/17
to
helpdesk.
NY
Aug 24, 2017, 1:00:33 PM8/24/17
to
"Dick" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:onn015$ais$1...@dont-email.me...
consistent (or at least intuitive) menus for line stats/speed - the
Technicolour routers that Plusnet use are particicularly hard to fathom.
If it wasn't so far to drive and the customer wasn't so hard of hearing, I'd
check whether the stats vary between the times when ping and web access work
and when they don't, even though the line speed is the same in both cases.
I wonder whether part of the problem is that the router is being
over-ambitious: trying (and failing) to talk at a higher speed, when it
could work reliably at a slightly slower speed.
news:onn015$ais$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Unfortunately the HomeHub 5 doesn't list any line stats like noise margin
>> and attenuation, and I didn't have my Netgear router with me that gives
>> those stats.
>> and attenuation, and I didn't have my Netgear router with me that gives
>> those stats.
> The Homehub 5 does list all the line stats. Go to Troubleshooting >
> helpdesk.
Ah, thanks. I'll remember that for next time. I wish all routers would have
> helpdesk.
consistent (or at least intuitive) menus for line stats/speed - the
Technicolour routers that Plusnet use are particicularly hard to fathom.
If it wasn't so far to drive and the customer wasn't so hard of hearing, I'd
check whether the stats vary between the times when ping and web access work
and when they don't, even though the line speed is the same in both cases.
I wonder whether part of the problem is that the router is being
over-ambitious: trying (and failing) to talk at a higher speed, when it
could work reliably at a slightly slower speed.
Graham J
Aug 24, 2017, 1:13:23 PM8/24/17
to
NY wrote:
[snip very common tale of woe]
Your only solution is to change ISP, to either Zen Internet or Andrews &
Arnold.
You should also get a proper router, one that reports the line stats.
Ideally you should get one that works with "Routerstats", see:
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
or
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/betatesters.htm
Your description is of good sync but lack of bandwidth. This might just
be a very noisy line not handled properly by the router, but is more
likely to be a fault somewhere in the BT system. It might also be that
BT changes their DNS server and the router doesn't recognise it, so
pinging something by IP address might work, but by name will fail.
A good ISP will talk you through some diagnostics to help identify the
problem; then they will call out Openreach. The customer will have to
accept the cost if the fault is proven to be caused by his wiring, so
testing with a proper router first would be sensible. However if the
fault is external Zen or A&A will continue to pester Openreach until the
problem is resolved.
Be aware that this could be an ongoing problem for many months, so keep
a log and keep us updated with progress.
Both Zen or A&A will give the customer a static IP address so you can
monitor performance remotely using for example:
http://fruk.net/index.php?fruk=f8lure
A Vigor router will allow you to set up a VPN so you could leave your
own laptop on site running routerstats, and interrogate it from your
location using the VPN.
Also, when the Openreach engineer attends, always be present yourself IN
PERSON to supervise, and keep notes. Never delegate this to anybody else!
Also see:
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html
... which says:
"If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have
a problem with your broadband line, we'll take on the fault. We'll
tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then
you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and
your service charges for that month."
If the customer won't leave BT then you can decline to help him any further.
--
Graham J
[snip very common tale of woe]
Your only solution is to change ISP, to either Zen Internet or Andrews &
Arnold.
You should also get a proper router, one that reports the line stats.
Ideally you should get one that works with "Routerstats", see:
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
or
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/betatesters.htm
Your description is of good sync but lack of bandwidth. This might just
be a very noisy line not handled properly by the router, but is more
likely to be a fault somewhere in the BT system. It might also be that
BT changes their DNS server and the router doesn't recognise it, so
pinging something by IP address might work, but by name will fail.
A good ISP will talk you through some diagnostics to help identify the
problem; then they will call out Openreach. The customer will have to
accept the cost if the fault is proven to be caused by his wiring, so
testing with a proper router first would be sensible. However if the
fault is external Zen or A&A will continue to pester Openreach until the
problem is resolved.
Be aware that this could be an ongoing problem for many months, so keep
a log and keep us updated with progress.
Both Zen or A&A will give the customer a static IP address so you can
monitor performance remotely using for example:
http://fruk.net/index.php?fruk=f8lure
A Vigor router will allow you to set up a VPN so you could leave your
own laptop on site running routerstats, and interrogate it from your
location using the VPN.
Also, when the Openreach engineer attends, always be present yourself IN
PERSON to supervise, and keep notes. Never delegate this to anybody else!
Also see:
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html
... which says:
"If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have
a problem with your broadband line, we'll take on the fault. We'll
tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then
you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and
your service charges for that month."
If the customer won't leave BT then you can decline to help him any further.
--
Graham J
NY
Aug 24, 2017, 2:21:05 PM8/24/17
to
"Graham J" <gra...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:onn17d$ep3$1...@dont-email.me...
it was because I was getting an IP address listed in the "Pinging" message.
This is what you (probably) pay extra for: terrier-like tenacity in getting
the problem sorted out. Underlying most ISPs' connections is a BT line, but
what sorts the sheep from the goats is that some will provide extra support,
in terms of talking through the problem in a sensible manner which shows
that they have listened to what I'd already tried. Plusnet provide good
support, though they are harder to contact than they used to be when I
started recommending them as being a good compromise between cost and
support quality. I've not had dealings with A&A or Zen, but I've seen a lot
of good reports of them.
It all boils down to cost. If Zen/A&A work out more expensive than MoorsNet
who provide a long-range wifi service to villages that have very poor ADSL,
then the customer will go with MoorsNet and cut his losses. But I'll suggest
Zen or A&A as a possibility.
The problem in this particular case (as far as I can gather from the client)
is that the ISP has twice requested Openreach to attend to measure the line
stats from the customer's end, and OR have refused to attend because their
tests from the exchange have "proved" that the fault lies with the
customer's wiring. My question to them is now "what wiring?" given than
there's nothing connected to the master socket except the filter, router and
cordless phone - and I've proved that a different filter, ADSL cable, a
different router (though still a BT HH5) and no phone connected still gives
the fault.
Am I right that the demarcation point is still deemed to be the master
socket? The only slightly non-standard thing is that the drop cable doesn't
go right to the master socket but ends at a rectangular BT junction box with
about a metre of white cable from that box to the BT master socket.
news:onn17d$ep3$1...@dont-email.me...
> It might also be that BT changes their DNS server and the router doesn't
> recognise it, so pinging something by IP address might work, but by name
> will fail.
I always check that the name-to-IP resolution has worked - and in this case
> recognise it, so pinging something by IP address might work, but by name
> will fail.
it was because I was getting an IP address listed in the "Pinging" message.
the problem sorted out. Underlying most ISPs' connections is a BT line, but
what sorts the sheep from the goats is that some will provide extra support,
in terms of talking through the problem in a sensible manner which shows
that they have listened to what I'd already tried. Plusnet provide good
support, though they are harder to contact than they used to be when I
started recommending them as being a good compromise between cost and
support quality. I've not had dealings with A&A or Zen, but I've seen a lot
of good reports of them.
It all boils down to cost. If Zen/A&A work out more expensive than MoorsNet
who provide a long-range wifi service to villages that have very poor ADSL,
then the customer will go with MoorsNet and cut his losses. But I'll suggest
Zen or A&A as a possibility.
The problem in this particular case (as far as I can gather from the client)
is that the ISP has twice requested Openreach to attend to measure the line
stats from the customer's end, and OR have refused to attend because their
tests from the exchange have "proved" that the fault lies with the
customer's wiring. My question to them is now "what wiring?" given than
there's nothing connected to the master socket except the filter, router and
cordless phone - and I've proved that a different filter, ADSL cable, a
different router (though still a BT HH5) and no phone connected still gives
the fault.
Am I right that the demarcation point is still deemed to be the master
socket? The only slightly non-standard thing is that the drop cable doesn't
go right to the master socket but ends at a rectangular BT junction box with
about a metre of white cable from that box to the BT master socket.
Dick
Aug 24, 2017, 2:25:18 PM8/24/17
to
On 24-Aug-17 7:20 PM, NY wrote:
> Am I right that the demarcation point is still deemed to be the master
> socket? The only slightly non-standard thing is that the drop cable
> doesn't go right to the master socket but ends at a rectangular BT
> junction box with about a metre of white cable from that box to the BT
> master socket.
That's why there is a test socket behind the removable faceplate of the
> Am I right that the demarcation point is still deemed to be the master
> socket? The only slightly non-standard thing is that the drop cable
> doesn't go right to the master socket but ends at a rectangular BT
> junction box with about a metre of white cable from that box to the BT
> master socket.
master socket. Reomving the faceplate disconnects all internal wiring
and provides a demarcation point.
Graham J
Aug 24, 2017, 2:32:52 PM8/24/17
to
NY wrote:
[snip]
>
> Am I right that the demarcation point is still deemed to be the master
> socket? The only slightly non-standard thing is that the drop cable
> doesn't go right to the master socket but ends at a rectangular BT
> junction box with about a metre of white cable from that box to the BT
> master socket.
This is a moot point. My experience is the demarcation is the end of
the dropwire unless the junction box and the cable to the master socket
are all clearly provided by Openreach.
What you describe is non-standard. Have you opened junction box and
seen what is inside? I've known Openreach equip these boxes with
filters to prevent audio noise, and they block ADSL quite effectively!
The old ones contain a lightning arrester which can upset the ADSL signals.
This is why you should be present when the Openreach engineer attends -
you can ask why that box is there, and whether it is causing the
unreliability.
A&A will be more expensive.
Zen might not be more expensive depending on the bundle chosen; they
could well be cheaper.
--
Graham J
[snip]
>
> Am I right that the demarcation point is still deemed to be the master
> socket? The only slightly non-standard thing is that the drop cable
> doesn't go right to the master socket but ends at a rectangular BT
> junction box with about a metre of white cable from that box to the BT
> master socket.
the dropwire unless the junction box and the cable to the master socket
are all clearly provided by Openreach.
What you describe is non-standard. Have you opened junction box and
seen what is inside? I've known Openreach equip these boxes with
filters to prevent audio noise, and they block ADSL quite effectively!
The old ones contain a lightning arrester which can upset the ADSL signals.
This is why you should be present when the Openreach engineer attends -
you can ask why that box is there, and whether it is causing the
unreliability.
A&A will be more expensive.
Zen might not be more expensive depending on the bundle chosen; they
could well be cheaper.
--
Graham J
NY
Aug 24, 2017, 3:39:41 PM8/24/17
to
"Graham J" <gra...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:onn5sf$urj$1...@dont-email.me...
> My experience is the demarcation is the end of the dropwire unless the
> junction box and the cable to the master socket are all clearly provided
> by Openreach.
>
> What you describe is non-standard. Have you opened junction box and seen
> what is inside? I've known Openreach equip these boxes with filters to
> prevent audio noise, and they block ADSL quite effectively! The old ones
> contain a lightning arrester which can upset the ADSL signals.
I didn't open the junction box. I assumed (which you should never do) that
> junction box and the cable to the master socket are all clearly provided
> by Openreach.
>
> What you describe is non-standard. Have you opened junction box and seen
> what is inside? I've known Openreach equip these boxes with filters to
> prevent audio noise, and they block ADSL quite effectively! The old ones
> contain a lightning arrester which can upset the ADSL signals.
it simply joined the fairly stiff drop cable to more flexible cable which
was routed along the window sill, and then round the edge of it to pass
underneath it, along the skirting board and into the master socket.
Hopefully if BT OR do attend they will investigate this as well as
everything else and get to the bottom of why the data throughput is
sometimes so bad even though the sync speed is fairly constant at 1.2 / 0.5
which is slow by modern standards (*) but usable providing it's reliable and
you always get roughly that speed.
During a period when I was getting ping times of about 120 msec (as opposed
to > 4000 msec!) I ran speedtest.net and got about 0.9 / 0.3 Mbps, so not
much slower than the sync speed that the router reported.
(*) I can remember the very early days of ADSL when 512 kbps was fairly
typical, and people would kill to get 2 Mbps. How times have changed!
Woody
Aug 24, 2017, 3:49:08 PM8/24/17
to
"NY" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:RoWdnaNr0p7mtgLE...@brightview.co.uk...
have grounds for saying you have done this extra bit of wiring and as
a consequence charge you for a callout.
--
Woody
harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com
NY
Aug 24, 2017, 4:04:20 PM8/24/17
to
"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:onnabf$f0s$1...@dont-email.me...
when the route that it must take within the house involves tight curves that
are too severe for drop cable to manage? I've seen these little junction
boxes between drop and white cable quite often in phone installations and
I've not thought anything of it other than that it provides a transition
between thick, stiff cable and thinner, flexible cable.
How does one convince BT OR that what they see it what they, BT OR,
installed a few years earlier?
How diligent are BT OR at attending to investigate poor broadband on long
lines? Are they known for sometimes deciding not to attend a callout that
has been made at the ISP's request if they know that the line is long and
the cables in the area are poor quality or involve lots of joints on pole
boxes or underground boxes. The distance from the house to the exchange is
about 6 km as the crow flies but I don't know what route the
overhead/underground cables may follow.
news:onnabf$f0s$1...@dont-email.me...
> Beware. If the drop cable does not go to the BT line box they could have
> grounds for saying you have done this extra bit of wiring and as a
> consequence charge you for a callout.
What is the approved BT method of getting drop cable to the master socket
> grounds for saying you have done this extra bit of wiring and as a
> consequence charge you for a callout.
when the route that it must take within the house involves tight curves that
are too severe for drop cable to manage? I've seen these little junction
boxes between drop and white cable quite often in phone installations and
I've not thought anything of it other than that it provides a transition
between thick, stiff cable and thinner, flexible cable.
How does one convince BT OR that what they see it what they, BT OR,
installed a few years earlier?
How diligent are BT OR at attending to investigate poor broadband on long
lines? Are they known for sometimes deciding not to attend a callout that
has been made at the ISP's request if they know that the line is long and
the cables in the area are poor quality or involve lots of joints on pole
boxes or underground boxes. The distance from the house to the exchange is
about 6 km as the crow flies but I don't know what route the
overhead/underground cables may follow.
Graham J
Aug 24, 2017, 5:46:34 PM8/24/17
to
See: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm or many other references.
--
Graham J
Graham J
Aug 24, 2017, 5:52:46 PM8/24/17
to
must first change to a competent ISP.
The attending Openreach engineer will have a map showing the route of
the line and will be prepared to re-make every join on that line if
necessary. Alternatively he (never known a she) will find an unused
pair that may be of better quality (i.e. copper all the way rather than
sections of aluminium).
I have known reliable ADSL on a line of 8km length, at about 512k sync
speed. A friend has a 12km line and only after many engineer visits
have they told him that "ADSL is not available at his address" so not
even A&A can ask for it.
--
Graham J
AnthonyL
Aug 25, 2017, 7:44:07 AM8/25/17
to
On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
wrote:
>NY wrote:
>
>[snip very common tale of woe]
>
>Your only solution is to change ISP, to either Zen Internet or Andrews &
>Arnold.
>
Is it A&A who have a "money back if we can't get it fixed" option?
I'll leave it to the OP to check.
Zen were certainly most helpful when I had intermittent issues though
the solution was that the "master socket" wasn't the master socket!
(on old barn/office conversion).
--
AnthonyL
wrote:
>NY wrote:
>
>[snip very common tale of woe]
>
>Your only solution is to change ISP, to either Zen Internet or Andrews &
>Arnold.
>
I'll leave it to the OP to check.
Zen were certainly most helpful when I had intermittent issues though
the solution was that the "master socket" wasn't the master socket!
(on old barn/office conversion).
--
AnthonyL
Bob Eager
Aug 25, 2017, 8:05:40 AM8/25/17
to
On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 11:44:06 +0000, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>NY wrote:
>>
>>[snip very common tale of woe]
>>
>>Your only solution is to change ISP, to either Zen Internet or Andrews &
>>Arnold.
>>
>>
> Is it A&A who have a "money back if we can't get it fixed" option?
>
> I'll leave it to the OP to check.
No need. A link was given upthread.
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>NY wrote:
>>
>>[snip very common tale of woe]
>>
>>Your only solution is to change ISP, to either Zen Internet or Andrews &
>>Arnold.
>>
>>
> Is it A&A who have a "money back if we can't get it fixed" option?
>
> I'll leave it to the OP to check.
ianp...@googlemail.com
Aug 27, 2017, 12:45:33 PM8/27/17
to
On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 22:52:44 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
wrote:
>
>The attending Openreach engineer will have a map showing the route of
>the line and will be prepared to re-make every join on that line if
>necessary. Alternatively he (never known a she) will find an unused
>pair that may be of better quality (i.e. copper all the way rather than
>sections of aluminium).
The most diligent one we ever had visit was a she.
I've had 2 OR engineer visits in the last 3 weeks. Both had the map
but they didn't agree on which line we were actually on! One insisted
we came along the 'Exchange only' line to the east of the B1363, the
other that we were connected to a cabinet on the West of B1363. This
is highly relevant with regard to Superfast BB provision. I'm
currently awaiting a response from OR management!
>I have known reliable ADSL on a line of 8km length, at about 512k sync
>speed. A friend has a 12km line and only after many engineer visits
>have they told him that "ADSL is not available at his address" so not
>even A&A can ask for it.
For the record. ADSL here on about 6km line length usually syncs at
around 3 to 3.5meg.
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian
wrote:
>
>Openreach diligence is totally dependent on the ISP. This is why you
>must first change to a competent ISP.
Agreed 100%
>must first change to a competent ISP.
>The attending Openreach engineer will have a map showing the route of
>the line and will be prepared to re-make every join on that line if
>necessary. Alternatively he (never known a she) will find an unused
>pair that may be of better quality (i.e. copper all the way rather than
>sections of aluminium).
I've had 2 OR engineer visits in the last 3 weeks. Both had the map
but they didn't agree on which line we were actually on! One insisted
we came along the 'Exchange only' line to the east of the B1363, the
other that we were connected to a cabinet on the West of B1363. This
is highly relevant with regard to Superfast BB provision. I'm
currently awaiting a response from OR management!
>I have known reliable ADSL on a line of 8km length, at about 512k sync
>speed. A friend has a 12km line and only after many engineer visits
>have they told him that "ADSL is not available at his address" so not
>even A&A can ask for it.
around 3 to 3.5meg.
Please reply to group - email address is not monitored
Ian
ianp...@googlemail.com
Aug 27, 2017, 12:45:33 PM8/27/17
to
On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
wrote:
>
"We cannot provide broadband service on this line"
Fortunately I was only really after their monitoring system - being
fed up with always having to wait several days for OR attendance once
a line probelm became noticable to me - and my current ISP (IDNET) are
pretty good at chasing OR.
One does have to have a degree of confidence that the problem is not
internal as you invariably have to agree that you will pay the OR
charge if the problem IS found to be internal wiring.
wrote:
>
>Also see:
>
>https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html
>
>... which says:
>
>"If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have
>a problem with your broadband line, we'll take on the fault. We'll
>tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then
>you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and
>your service charges for that month."
>
Hmmmm.. and when I tried this the A&A ordering system came back with
>
>https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html
>
>... which says:
>
>"If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have
>a problem with your broadband line, we'll take on the fault. We'll
>tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then
>you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and
>your service charges for that month."
>
"We cannot provide broadband service on this line"
Fortunately I was only really after their monitoring system - being
fed up with always having to wait several days for OR attendance once
a line probelm became noticable to me - and my current ISP (IDNET) are
pretty good at chasing OR.
One does have to have a degree of confidence that the problem is not
internal as you invariably have to agree that you will pay the OR
charge if the problem IS found to be internal wiring.
ianp...@googlemail.com
Aug 27, 2017, 12:45:33 PM8/27/17
to
exterior wall, then through loft space to an old BT lozenge connection
box and onward to "NTE5" Master socket in the bedroom. Recent OR visit
confirmed a bad connection in the exterior box and high resistance in
cable in the loft. OR engineer claimed he wasn't allowed into the loft
(as it is unboarded) so replaced the exterior box and ran new wire
externally to a newly positioned NTE5C Mk4 Master socket in another
bedroom. This would suggest the demarcation point WAS the exterior
box.
Move forward 2 weeks to last Wednesday when the nice shiny new NTE5C
went pop during a thunderstorm. Everything still worked if plugged
into the test socket (accessible after removing the faceplate).
Broadband still worked when plugged into the Master Socket but phone
did not. My phone provder/ISP felt that an online purchase of a
replacement faceplate was the more appropriate option as he felt sure
that OR would charge the standard £130+ if they came out and found the
test socket working correctly. I followed this advice. This suggests
the demarcation point is now the test socket behind the master socket
faceplate......
As stated by Graham J.... 'tis a moot point.....
Tim+
Aug 27, 2017, 1:26:08 PM8/27/17
to
<ianp...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Move forward 2 weeks to last Wednesday when the nice shiny new NTE5C
> went pop during a thunderstorm. Everything still worked if plugged
> into the test socket (accessible after removing the faceplate).
> Broadband still worked when plugged into the Master Socket but phone
> did not. My phone provder/ISP felt that an online purchase of a
> replacement faceplate was the more appropriate option as he felt sure
> that OR would charge the standard £130+ if they came out and found the
> test socket working correctly. I followed this advice. This suggests
> the demarcation point is now the test socket behind the master socket
> faceplate......
Um, it always has been (at least where a split face master socket is
>
> Move forward 2 weeks to last Wednesday when the nice shiny new NTE5C
> went pop during a thunderstorm. Everything still worked if plugged
> into the test socket (accessible after removing the faceplate).
> Broadband still worked when plugged into the Master Socket but phone
> did not. My phone provder/ISP felt that an online purchase of a
> replacement faceplate was the more appropriate option as he felt sure
> that OR would charge the standard £130+ if they came out and found the
> test socket working correctly. I followed this advice. This suggests
> the demarcation point is now the test socket behind the master socket
> faceplate......
fitted). Anything "beyond" the test socket is connected to your (possibly
faulty) wiring, hence the much repeated advice to use the test socket
behind the faceplate.
Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Graham J
Aug 27, 2017, 2:11:34 PM8/27/17
to
ianp...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Also see:
>>
>> https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html
>>
>> ... which says:
>>
>> "If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have
>> a problem with your broadband line, we'll take on the fault. We'll
>> tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then
>> you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and
>> your service charges for that month."
[snip]
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:13:20 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Also see:
>>
>> https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html
>>
>> ... which says:
>>
>> "If you are migrating your service to us, even though you know you have
>> a problem with your broadband line, we'll take on the fault. We'll
>> tackle the problem and get it fixed within one month. If we don't then
>> you can migrate away and owe us nothing for your migration to us and
>> your service charges for that month."
That may simply be because there is already a broadband service from
another supplier on the line. Maybe you should try the "migrate" option
rather than the "new service" option?
If that fails ring them and ask why.
--
Graham J
NY
Aug 27, 2017, 3:02:12 PM8/27/17
to
<ianp...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:h9t5qcpk62qqbjji8...@4ax.com...
lozenge box from which two round white cables went, one to a socket
downstairs and one to a socket upstairs. The sockets were marked British
Telecom, with the original dots-and-dashes logo immediately
post-privatisation. That dates the sockets to the early 80s, though the
wiring may have been done before that, feeding hard-wired GPO telephones
originally.
We had good ADSL to the upstairs socket from which I fed a fairly crappy
ribbon cable extension lead to the bedroom where the router lives. It
gradually increased over the years to about 7.5 Mbps.
Then very suddenly ADSL became atrocious: the router would lose sync for
hours at a time and when it did synchronise it was at a wide variety of
rates. Things were always worse after heavy rain, which suggests water in a
joint somewhere.
BT OR (requested by my ISP, Plusnet) attended twice. The first time they
replaced the upstairs socket by a modern non-faceplate socket, correcting a
wiring fault at the same time. The second time they replaced the BT lozenge
with a faceplate master socket and connected the existing two cable runs to
the faceplate in such a way that they were isolated from each other and
didn't constitute "star wiring" which apparently is the cause of many ADSL
problems.
Even at the master test socket, with the house wiring disconnected, ADSL was
still poor compared with what it had been until a few months before. We were
going to get BT out again, but we decided to treat ourselves to "fibre". The
reduced cable length to our cabinet and maybe the switch to VDSL which may
or may be more resilient to bad joints seem to have eliminated the fault.
At the master socket, with the house wiring unplugged, we got about 30 Mbps.
With it connected and the router still in the master socket, it dropped to
about 25. But it was a hassle having to use Homeplug to get Ethernet from
beside the front door up to my study, so I tried the router in its original
location, using all the dubious ribbon cable. That reduced the sync speed to
about 20 which I decided was tolerable (especially given the bigger benefit
of increased upload speed from 0.5 to 7 Mbps) given that the router was
where I really needed it to be so it was a) next to the computers that
needed 100% reliable connection (I don't trust wifi to work 24x7 without
needing occasional manual intervention and reboots of router or PCs), and b)
higher up, giving wider wifi coverage for laptops and mobile phones.
The moral of this is that sometimes BT OR don't fully investigate faults
that may be outside the house, instead concentrating on wiring "faults"
(usually obsolete wiring standards), and that sometimes it is better to
suffer a slight reduction from the very best that you can get if it gives
you a router where you really need it.
It also highlighted that BT OR engineers are not always up-to-date with
policies. Until literally a week before I first called BT OR (via my ISP),
BT OR would relocate a master socket to where you needed it (within x metres
of the original location, to avoid people taking the piss) and both BT OR
engineers urged me to request my ISP to commission BT OR to do this, which
was my right to do. But they were out of date in their recommendation. I was
just too late, so I'd have had to pay them £150 for them to install a data
socket (filtered) where I wanted it, so I chose to use the amateur method of
achieving this, given that the penalty was not a *dramatic* reduction in
speed.
news:h9t5qcpk62qqbjji8...@4ax.com...
> My installation had the drop wire coming to a connection box on an
> exterior wall, then through loft space to an old BT lozenge connection
> box and onward to "NTE5" Master socket in the bedroom.
Until couple of years ago, our wiring had a drop cable going to a GPO
> exterior wall, then through loft space to an old BT lozenge connection
> box and onward to "NTE5" Master socket in the bedroom.
lozenge box from which two round white cables went, one to a socket
downstairs and one to a socket upstairs. The sockets were marked British
Telecom, with the original dots-and-dashes logo immediately
post-privatisation. That dates the sockets to the early 80s, though the
wiring may have been done before that, feeding hard-wired GPO telephones
originally.
We had good ADSL to the upstairs socket from which I fed a fairly crappy
ribbon cable extension lead to the bedroom where the router lives. It
gradually increased over the years to about 7.5 Mbps.
Then very suddenly ADSL became atrocious: the router would lose sync for
hours at a time and when it did synchronise it was at a wide variety of
rates. Things were always worse after heavy rain, which suggests water in a
joint somewhere.
BT OR (requested by my ISP, Plusnet) attended twice. The first time they
replaced the upstairs socket by a modern non-faceplate socket, correcting a
wiring fault at the same time. The second time they replaced the BT lozenge
with a faceplate master socket and connected the existing two cable runs to
the faceplate in such a way that they were isolated from each other and
didn't constitute "star wiring" which apparently is the cause of many ADSL
problems.
Even at the master test socket, with the house wiring disconnected, ADSL was
still poor compared with what it had been until a few months before. We were
going to get BT out again, but we decided to treat ourselves to "fibre". The
reduced cable length to our cabinet and maybe the switch to VDSL which may
or may be more resilient to bad joints seem to have eliminated the fault.
At the master socket, with the house wiring unplugged, we got about 30 Mbps.
With it connected and the router still in the master socket, it dropped to
about 25. But it was a hassle having to use Homeplug to get Ethernet from
beside the front door up to my study, so I tried the router in its original
location, using all the dubious ribbon cable. That reduced the sync speed to
about 20 which I decided was tolerable (especially given the bigger benefit
of increased upload speed from 0.5 to 7 Mbps) given that the router was
where I really needed it to be so it was a) next to the computers that
needed 100% reliable connection (I don't trust wifi to work 24x7 without
needing occasional manual intervention and reboots of router or PCs), and b)
higher up, giving wider wifi coverage for laptops and mobile phones.
The moral of this is that sometimes BT OR don't fully investigate faults
that may be outside the house, instead concentrating on wiring "faults"
(usually obsolete wiring standards), and that sometimes it is better to
suffer a slight reduction from the very best that you can get if it gives
you a router where you really need it.
It also highlighted that BT OR engineers are not always up-to-date with
policies. Until literally a week before I first called BT OR (via my ISP),
BT OR would relocate a master socket to where you needed it (within x metres
of the original location, to avoid people taking the piss) and both BT OR
engineers urged me to request my ISP to commission BT OR to do this, which
was my right to do. But they were out of date in their recommendation. I was
just too late, so I'd have had to pay them £150 for them to install a data
socket (filtered) where I wanted it, so I chose to use the amateur method of
achieving this, given that the penalty was not a *dramatic* reduction in
speed.
ianp...@googlemail.com
Aug 28, 2017, 12:08:32 PM8/28/17
to
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 19:11:32 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
Good advice, thanks. I will try that next time our BB falls over. I
shouldn't have long to wait :)
shouldn't have long to wait :)
Martin Brown
Aug 29, 2017, 10:18:58 AM8/29/17
to
On 27/08/2017 17:45, ianp...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 22:52:44 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The attending Openreach engineer will have a map showing the route of
>> the line and will be prepared to re-make every join on that line if
>> necessary. Alternatively he (never known a she) will find an unused
>> pair that may be of better quality (i.e. copper all the way rather than
>> sections of aluminium).
>
> The most diligent one we ever had visit was a she.
> I've had 2 OR engineer visits in the last 3 weeks. Both had the map
> but they didn't agree on which line we were actually on! One insisted
> we came along the 'Exchange only' line to the east of the B1363, the
> other that we were connected to a cabinet on the West of B1363. This
> is highly relevant with regard to Superfast BB provision. I'm
> currently awaiting a response from OR management!
If it is rural then you are likely to be on an EO line.
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 22:52:44 +0100, Graham J <gra...@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The attending Openreach engineer will have a map showing the route of
>> the line and will be prepared to re-make every join on that line if
>> necessary. Alternatively he (never known a she) will find an unused
>> pair that may be of better quality (i.e. copper all the way rather than
>> sections of aluminium).
>
> The most diligent one we ever had visit was a she.
> I've had 2 OR engineer visits in the last 3 weeks. Both had the map
> but they didn't agree on which line we were actually on! One insisted
> we came along the 'Exchange only' line to the east of the B1363, the
> other that we were connected to a cabinet on the West of B1363. This
> is highly relevant with regard to Superfast BB provision. I'm
> currently awaiting a response from OR management!
Doesn't the BT line checker tell you?
http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/
If you are allocated to a cabinet it will show the number after the name
of the exchange otherwise it is a direct line. The guy who lives
opposite the FTTC cabinet in our village is an EO line victim. His line
runs down the wrong side of the road so BT quoted him £3k to upgrade!
>> I have known reliable ADSL on a line of 8km length, at about 512k sync
>> speed. A friend has a 12km line and only after many engineer visits
>> have they told him that "ADSL is not available at his address" so not
>> even A&A can ask for it.
>
> For the record. ADSL here on about 6km line length usually syncs at
> around 3 to 3.5meg.
functionally equivalent approved combined socket and filter)?
I went from about 3Mbps to 5Mbps after applying the bellwire fix.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Martin Brown
Aug 29, 2017, 10:19:35 AM8/29/17
to
On 24/08/2017 21:04, NY wrote:
> "Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:onnabf$f0s$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Beware. If the drop cable does not go to the BT line box they could have
>> grounds for saying you have done this extra bit of wiring and as a
>> consequence charge you for a callout.
>
> What is the approved BT method of getting drop cable to the master socket
> when the route that it must take within the house involves tight curves
> that
> are too severe for drop cable to manage? I've seen these little junction
> boxes between drop and white cable quite often in phone installations and
> I've not thought anything of it other than that it provides a transition
> between thick, stiff cable and thinner, flexible cable.
The solution BT took in my house was install the master socket in the
> "Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:onnabf$f0s$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Beware. If the drop cable does not go to the BT line box they could have
>> grounds for saying you have done this extra bit of wiring and as a
>> consequence charge you for a callout.
>
> What is the approved BT method of getting drop cable to the master socket
> when the route that it must take within the house involves tight curves
> that
> are too severe for drop cable to manage? I've seen these little junction
> boxes between drop and white cable quite often in phone installations and
> I've not thought anything of it other than that it provides a transition
> between thick, stiff cable and thinner, flexible cable.
loft close to where the drop cable enters the property :(
>
> How does one convince BT OR that what they see it what they, BT OR,
> installed a few years earlier?
>
> How diligent are BT OR at attending to investigate poor broadband on long
> lines? Are they known for sometimes deciding not to attend a callout that
> has been made at the ISP's request if they know that the line is long and
> the cables in the area are poor quality or involve lots of joints on pole
> boxes or underground boxes. The distance from the house to the exchange is
> about 6 km as the crow flies but I don't know what route the
> overhead/underground cables may follow.
They generally do a TDR test before sending out an engineer which on a
> How does one convince BT OR that what they see it what they, BT OR,
> installed a few years earlier?
>
> How diligent are BT OR at attending to investigate poor broadband on long
> lines? Are they known for sometimes deciding not to attend a callout that
> has been made at the ISP's request if they know that the line is long and
> the cables in the area are poor quality or involve lots of joints on pole
> boxes or underground boxes. The distance from the house to the exchange is
> about 6 km as the crow flies but I don't know what route the
> overhead/underground cables may follow.
good day will find any partial breaks or dry joints to within about 3m
either way. On a bad day it will temporarily heal the fault.
Looking at their maps gives them a sporting chance of guessing which
junction box or coupling is at fault. Sometimes it erroneously gives "on
customer premises" when the fault is in the drop line to the master
socket. Otherwise it seems to be fairly accurate.
They dug a failed joint up in front of my house recently. It was old and
leaking when he shook it you could hear the water sloshing around
inside. No wonder half the village had lost broadband - even POTS was
borderline sounding like it was live from the battle of the Somme.
If there are any aluminium to copper cable joints in the neighbourhood
then they know they are on a hiding to nothing. At 6 km range you are
doing well to get a stable 1Mbps I presume you rounded up 448k uplink
speed which is a common maximum in rural areas.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Martin Brown
Aug 29, 2017, 10:20:33 AM8/29/17
to
On 24/08/2017 18:00, NY wrote:
> "Dick" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:onn015$ais$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> Unfortunately the HomeHub 5 doesn't list any line stats like noise
>>> margin and attenuation, and I didn't have my Netgear router with me
>>> that gives those stats.
>
>> The Homehub 5 does list all the line stats. Go to Troubleshooting >
>> helpdesk.
>
> Ah, thanks. I'll remember that for next time. I wish all routers would
> have consistent (or at least intuitive) menus for line stats/speed - the
> Technicolour routers that Plusnet use are particicularly hard to fathom.
Some of them hide the details screen behind a "Here be dragons" warning
> "Dick" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:onn015$ais$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> Unfortunately the HomeHub 5 doesn't list any line stats like noise
>>> margin and attenuation, and I didn't have my Netgear router with me
>>> that gives those stats.
>
>> The Homehub 5 does list all the line stats. Go to Troubleshooting >
>> helpdesk.
>
> Ah, thanks. I'll remember that for next time. I wish all routers would
> have consistent (or at least intuitive) menus for line stats/speed - the
> Technicolour routers that Plusnet use are particicularly hard to fathom.
notice to put people off looking.
>
> If it wasn't so far to drive and the customer wasn't so hard of hearing,
> I'd check whether the stats vary between the times when ping and web
> access work and when they don't, even though the line speed is the same
> in both cases.
If it is a bad/intermittent fault you will get quadratically increasing
> If it wasn't so far to drive and the customer wasn't so hard of hearing,
> I'd check whether the stats vary between the times when ping and web
> access work and when they don't, even though the line speed is the same
> in both cases.
delays if the same packet goes missing several times.
>
> I wonder whether part of the problem is that the router is being
> over-ambitious: trying (and failing) to talk at a higher speed, when it
> could work reliably at a slightly slower speed.
Usually it settles on a noise margin of 6dB by default but if it is
> I wonder whether part of the problem is that the router is being
> over-ambitious: trying (and failing) to talk at a higher speed, when it
> could work reliably at a slightly slower speed.
struggling with a bad rural line the margin gets increased by a multiple
of 3dB upto about 15dB is the worst I have ever seen. At that you are
down to truly poxy sync speeds and a fault that they can find reliably.
The snag is that line tests can sometimes heal a temporary fault.
Mine usually sits around 5Mbps and 9dB.
You can force an optimistic speed connection by reconnecting just after
midday or a pessimistic slower one by reconnecting after sunset when
there is more interference from distant MW radio stations.
Round here Clannet point to point over microwave is rapidly gaining
customers in the various not spots with dreadful fixed lines.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
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