Line dropping out after 10-15 seconds
ste...@totalise.co.uk
for about 10 - 15 seconds before dropping out.
The events log for the "Be Box" router shows the "xDSL linestate" yo-
yoing between being up and down, and when it's up the stats are:
"xDSL linestate up (ITU-T G.992.5; downstream: 16061 kbit/s, upstream:
1010 kbit/s; output Power Down: 18.5 dBm, Up: 12.0 dBm; line
Attenuation Down: 15.0 dB, Up: 7.0 dB; snr Margin Down: 15.0 dB, Up:
15.0 dB)"
Be carried out some tests on the line, and without any phones or
routers plugged in they said the stats showed I live about 1km to my
exchange, which is about right, but when the router was plugged in the
stats were equivalent to living 6km from the exchange - although the
stats listed above are presumably what you'd get if you live 1km away
(those stats are with Be putting me on the most stable profile, but
before they changed the profile it was syncing at about 18 Mbps).
BT also performed tests on the line (which is fine for making phone
calls on), and they said there's no problem with the line.
Both BT and Be suggested that I should plug the broadband into the BT
test socket, but I don't have an NTE5 main socket, so I don't have a
BT test socket. BT suggested that I tell my ISP to escalate the
problem with BT Wholesale, but Be told me to contact BT, so I've been
going round in circles with each one trying to palm me off on the
other.
The Be Box router produces a short pulse of noise that's audible on
the phone line, so I've asked Be to send me another Be Box. But my old
router supports ADSL2+ as well, and when that's plugged in the ADSL
light also stays solid for a few seconds then goes back to flashing.
The PPP light doesn't come on on the other router though, so I can't
connect to the Internet with the other router, but I think that's
probably because the settings aren't correct.
The only other telephone is connected via an extension lead to the
main socket, but I've unplugged the extension lead anyway. I've also
tried the broadband without the main phone being plugged in, and it
makes no difference.
I've tried 4 different ADSL filters and three different RJ11 cables,
and they don't make any difference either.
I'm going to wait until the new Be Box has been delivered before I do
anything else, but because the ADSL light on my older router also yo-
yos between being solid and flashing that suggests that the Be Box
probably isn't the problem either.
Also, just to confuse matters, I basically had the same problem I'm
having now with my line not syncing (can't remember if it never synced
at all or synced then lost sync like it's doing now) when I first
tried to get ADSL which must be 6 years or so ago. So at the time I
went back to dial-up, then tried a year or so later on the off-chance
and ADSL worked okay and it's worked fine since then until last
Friday.
Assuming that the new Be Box doesn't solve the problem, does it sound
like the master socket needs replacing? And if so, would BT replace it
free of charge? And are there any other things I can try to figure out
where the fault lies before asking a BT engineer to come out?
Graham J
<ste...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:04d1a1db-588a-4ec9...@b31g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
OK so who provided your ADSL service from 5 years ago until last Friday?
> Assuming that the new Be Box doesn't solve the problem, does it sound
> like the master socket needs replacing? And if so, would BT replace it
> free of charge? And are there any other things I can try to figure out
> where the fault lies before asking a BT engineer to come out?
This is catch 22. If you have a modern master socket you can try the tests
that BT insist on from all their ISPs. If the ISP jumps through BT's hoops
correctly, they can log a fault with BT. If the test results indicate to BT
that they should send out an engineer who finds that the master socket is
faulty he will replace it FOC. If you can't run the tests, then the ISP
won't ever call out BT !!!
So you could pay BT to come and fit a new master socket @ £99 plus VAT. If
you want the incoming wire moved as well that might be reasonable value ...
Otherwise buy a new master socket from Solwise or wherever and fit it
yourself.
And as others will explain at great length, since this is a problem with
ADSL, your ISP has to call out BT - so you have to persuade the ISP that
there is a BT problem to fix. Some ISPs are more helpful than others in
this. Most ISPs will send several replacement routers before they call out
BT ...
--
Graham J
Ato_Zee
> Otherwise buy a new master socket from Solwise or wherever and fit it
> yourself.
Make sure it has an authentic Openreach or BT logo and buy
the matching backbox with it.
You could try an ADSL only 4Mbps modem, such as a Draytek
Voyager 2600, for which there is a long line flash, sometimes
this helps, but not always.
I'd suspect that you are trying to negotiate an unsustainable
standard
<quote>
ITU G.992.5 Annex M is an ITU (International Telecommunication Union)
standard, also referred to as 'ADSL2+M'. ITU G.992.5 Annex M extends the
capability of basic ADSL2 by doubling the number of upstream bits. The
data rates can be as high as 24 Mbit/s downstream and 3.5 Mbit/s upstream
depending on the distance from the DSLAM to the customer's home.
ADSL2+M is also offered by UK LLU broadband provider Be* referred to
as "upload plus", although only on their top price "Be pro" package.
<unquote>
Basic vanilla flavour modems such as the Draytek should be
backwards compatible standards wise, and are available on eBay
from around a tenner, that's what I paid for mine, found the
seller was 3 miles away so no P&P.
It's worth it for a test, if the line then becomes stable it's a starting
point.
ste...@totalise.co.uk
> <stev...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:04d1a1db-588a-4ec9...@b31g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> > Also, just to confuse matters, I basically had the same problem I'm
> > having now with my line not syncing (can't remember if it never synced
> > at all or synced then lost sync like it's doing now) when I first
> > tried to get ADSL which must be 6 years or so ago. So at the time I
> > went back to dial-up, then tried a year or so later on the off-chance
> > and ADSL worked okay and it's worked fine since then until last
> > Friday.
>
> OK so who provided your ADSL service from 5 years ago until last Friday?
Virgin ADSL.
> > Assuming that the new Be Box doesn't solve the problem, does it sound
> > like the master socket needs replacing? And if so, would BT replace it
> > free of charge? And are there any other things I can try to figure out
> > where the fault lies before asking a BT engineer to come out?
>
> This is catch 22.
Yeah, seems like it.
> If you have a modern master socket you can try the tests
> that BT insist on from all their ISPs. If the ISP jumps through BT's hoops
> correctly, they can log a fault with BT. If the test results indicate to BT
> that they should send out an engineer who finds that the master socket is
> faulty he will replace it FOC. If you can't run the tests, then the ISP
> won't ever call out BT !!!
I wouldn't mind if it wasn't for how much BT is charging.
> So you could pay BT to come and fit a new master socket @ £99 plus VAT. If
> you want the incoming wire moved as well that might be reasonable value ...
From what I've described, do you think it sounds like the current
master socket is faulty, and if so would the BT engineer charge me
this £99 + VAT?
> Otherwise buy a new master socket from Solwise or wherever and fit it
> yourself.
What's the voltage level on the wires? I just tried scraping some
white stuff off one of the ends of a capacitor to see if it would help
(it didn't) and the screwdriver connected the end of the capacitor
with the end of a resistor and it produced a spark.
If I did bugger it up and a BT engineer had to come out to fix it, how
much do they charge as a "fine" for trying to tamper with their
wiring? I get the feeling that it's probably worth the risk.
> And as others will explain at great length, since this is a problem with
> ADSL, your ISP has to call out BT - so you have to persuade the ISP that
> there is a BT problem to fix. Some ISPs are more helpful than others in
> this. Most ISPs will send several replacement routers before they call out
> BT ...
Yeah, whenever I've spoken to BT they've told me to tell my ISP to
escalate the fault to BT Wholesale, but whenever I speak to my ISP
they always tell me to get BT to get an engineer out.
Why are the ISPs so loathed to report the fault to BT Wholesal
themselves?
ste...@totalise.co.uk
> > Otherwise buy a new master socket from Solwise or wherever and fit it
> > yourself.
>
> Make sure it has an authentic Openreach or BT logo and buy
> the matching backbox with it.
Okay.
> You could try an ADSL only 4Mbps modem, such as a Draytek
> Voyager 2600, for which there is a long line flash, sometimes
> this helps, but not always.
>
> I'd suspect that you are trying to negotiate an unsustainable
> standard
> <quote>
> ITU G.992.5 Annex M is an ITU (International Telecommunication Union)
> standard, also referred to as 'ADSL2+M'. ITU G.992.5 Annex M extends the
> capability of basic ADSL2 by doubling the number of upstream bits. The
> data rates can be as high as 24 Mbit/s downstream and 3.5 Mbit/s upstream
> depending on the distance from the DSLAM to the customer's home.
> ADSL2+M is also offered by UK LLU broadband provider Be* referred to
> as "upload plus", although only on their top price "Be pro" package.
> <unquote>
I'm only on the Be Unlimited package, not Be Pro, so I'm using G.992.5
Annex A rather than Annex M - I think Annex M has higher upstream
bandwidth. And I'm using the "Be Box" router that Be* provided me
with.
> Basic vanilla flavour modems such as the Draytek should be
> backwards compatible standards wise, and are available on eBay
> from around a tenner, that's what I paid for mine, found the
> seller was 3 miles away so no P&P.
> It's worth it for a test, if the line then becomes stable it's a starting
> point.
I asked the Be tech support to switch me back to using ADSL
modulation, but it didn't make any difference. Then again, I was
sceptical that he had changed me, because from memory it was still
showing as "G.992.5" (whcih is ADSL2+) in the log. I might give that
another try.
Woody
>Why are the ISPs so loathed to report the fault to BT Wholesal
>themselves?
Probably because likely they have to pay even if a fault is found.
It's also simpler to try to get you to do it - the easy way out!
--
Woody
harrogate three at ntlworld dot com
ste...@totalise.co.uk
> [snip]
>
> >Why are the ISPs so loathed to report the fault to BT Wholesal
> >themselves?
>
> Probably because likely they have to pay even if a fault is found.
That figures.
> It's also simpler to try to get you to do it - the easy way out!
True.
ste...@totalise.co.uk
> I'd suspect that you are trying to negotiate an unsustainable
> standard
> <quote>
> ITU G.992.5 Annex M is an ITU (International Telecommunication Union)
> standard, also referred to as 'ADSL2+M'. ITU G.992.5 Annex M extends the
> capability of basic ADSL2 by doubling the number of upstream bits. The
> data rates can be as high as 24 Mbit/s downstream and 3.5 Mbit/s upstream
> depending on the distance from the DSLAM to the customer's home.
> ADSL2+M is also offered by UK LLU broadband provider Be* referred to
> as "upload plus", although only on their top price "Be pro" package.
> <unquote>
You were right - I've just rung up Be* tech support to get them to
change me to ADSL, and the line is now working perfectly well. I'm
really annoyed about this, because I rang up a couple of days ago to
ask them to switch to using ADSL to see if that would work, and the
lad I spoke to said he didn't know how to do it, then he went off to
speak to someone, and he came back and said it's been changed, but the
router log was still showing that it was G.992.5, whcih is ADSL2+, but
I just took his word for it that he'd changed it. But this time they
did change it and the router log file showed immediately that it's
changed to G.992.1, which is ADSL. So he basically lied when he said
he'd done it. To give Be* their due they have been pretty helpful
overall, although you would have thought that they would have
suggested going back to ADSL.
Ato_Zee
> I asked the Be tech support to switch me back to using ADSL
> modulation, but it didn't make any difference.
AFAIK the modulation is determined by the subscribers modem
which negotiates the standard it supports with the
exchange DSLAM. Put in an ADSL 4Mbps modem, that is
what it negotiates, put in an ADSL+, that is what it
negotiates. My old Draytek 2600 was remarkably stable,
I also have two ADSL+ modems where the speed fluctuates
in step with the phases of the moon.
My ADSL+ modems support DMT tool, a marvellous diagnostic
aid, if your modem supports it.
I now run about 30 percent faster with ADSL+ and can push that
a bit higher using DMT tool to set my target SNR to around 6db,
however bursts of noise mean after a few days it has
dropped back, but still faster than plain ADSL.
Ato_Zee
> You were right - I've just rung up Be* tech support to get them to
> change me to ADSL, and the line is now working perfectly well.
That's the benefit of a spare basic ADSL only modem, they
are very stable, and a good diagnostic tool when things go
pear shaped, or to plug in if your main modem gets
lightning struck. You aren't off the air waiting for a replacement,
which may have been someone elses problem recycled.
A lot of replacement modems aere marginal ones or
intermittants that haven't been fixed.
ste...@totalise.co.uk
> You were right - I've just rung up Be* tech support to get them to
> change me to ADSL, and the line is now working perfectly well. I'm
> really annoyed about this, because I rang up a couple of days ago to
> ask them to switch to using ADSL to see if that would work, and the
> lad I spoke to said he didn't know how to do it, then he went off to
> speak to someone, and he came back and said it's been changed, but the
> router log was still showing that it was G.992.5, whcih is ADSL2+, but
> I just took his word for it that he'd changed it. But this time they
> did change it and the router log file showed immediately that it's
> changed to G.992.1, which is ADSL. So he basically lied when he said
> he'd done it. To give Be* their due they have been pretty helpful
> overall, although you would have thought that they would have
> suggested going back to ADSL.
In fact, I remember suggesting to their tech support to change back to
ADSL last Friday on the day I switched over and it wasn't working, but
the tech support bloke said "changing to a lower modulation doesn't
generally help matters", so they didn't try it. So I almost wasted
£120 on getting BT out when I'd already suggested switching back to
ADSL, and I'd asked them to change back to ADSL and they basically
lied to me that they'd changed it when in fact they hadn't, and I've
wasted shitloads of time trying to figure out what's wrong and using a
broadband connection where it took literally about 5 minutes to
download each web page, and bigger web pages didn't even load at all.
ste...@totalise.co.uk
> > I asked the Be tech support to switch me back to using ADSL
> > modulation, but it didn't make any difference.
>
> AFAIK the modulation is determined by the subscribers modem
> which negotiates the standard it supports with the
> exchange DSLAM. Put in an ADSL 4Mbps modem, that is
> what it negotiates, put in an ADSL+, that is what it
> negotiates.
That's what seems to happen unless the ISP changes the modulation
specifically, which is what Be* did this morning when they changed me
back to ADSL.
> My old Draytek 2600 was remarkably stable,
> I also have two ADSL+ modems where the speed fluctuates
> in step with the phases of the moon.
> My ADSL+ modems support DMT tool, a marvellous diagnostic
> aid, if your modem supports it.
> I now run about 30 percent faster with ADSL+ and can push that
> a bit higher using DMT tool to set my target SNR to around 6db,
> however bursts of noise mean after a few days it has
> dropped back, but still faster than plain ADSL.
My download speeds are about half of what they were before I switched
last Friday! Having said that, the latency of web pages loading seems
to be a bit better than it was.
Kráftéé
>> Otherwise buy a new master socket from Solwise or wherever and fit it
>> yourself.
>
> Make sure it has an authentic Openreach or BT logo and buy
> the matching backbox with it.
Make sure it's an authentic Openreach one as these are slightly better for
DSL services...
ste...@totalise.co.uk
Do you know where you can buy NTE5 master sockets from that have the
Openreach logo on them?
Ato_Zee
> Do you know where you can buy NTE5 master sockets from that have the
> Openreach logo on them?
Bought mine on eBay after checking with vendor it had BT Piper logo,
including
backbox AFAIR it was about a tenner. Not too worried about it not
being Openreach branded. It had screw line connections, not IDC.
With the Piper logo you can say it was put in years ago when they
replaced the dropwire, I don't think their records are that
definative so they can say we've never fitted an NTE5.
I've got a vest pocket line polarity tester, but you can check it
with a 3 quid multirange meter, the polarity and pinning
are on the web, some vendors of NTE5 offer a wiring diagram.
The voltage is 50V DC.
ste...@totalise.co.uk
Does this look like a genuine one:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140280463677
It's got Openreach written on the top. I've emailed the seller anyway.
Other than asking "is it genuine", are there any other questions I can
ask to see whether it is a genuine article or not?
Ato_Zee
> It's got Openreach written on the top. I've emailed the seller anyway.
> Other than asking "is it genuine", are there any other questions I can
> ask to see whether it is a genuine article or not?
Not familiar with the Openreach one, mines a Piper.
Not too good a picture but looks genuine, can't imagine
anyone making a substantial investment in tooling
to make non-genuine ones.
Check if it includes the backbox, the existing
LTU backbox probably not deep enough, mine
wasn't, and they don't fit the shallow lighting
switch backboxes.
Doesn't matter too much if it's screw or IDC
unless you haven't got an IDC tool. The
plastic ones are OK for a one off job.
The professional Krone pattern ones can
be set to clip the ends and are good for
a few thousand connections.
Kráftéé
That looks to be the genuine article, the only way of knowing for sure is
whether the faceplate has 4 IDCs & a cylindrical lump (it's the later which
makes the difference)
Kráftéé
All BT NTE5 have screw terminals for the network cable.
If yours have an IDC, you could be charged, in the future, if you have a
fault as it's a non standard box & would not have been fitted (make that
should not have been fitted) by a BT/Openreach engineer & there are good
reasons for the screw terminals......
IDC connections are optimal for a limited size of conductor, screw terminals
will be ok for a far wider range off sizes & if you've ever seen where some
twonk had tried to IDC DW4 you'd know what I mean...
ste...@totalise.co.uk
The replacement Be Box router has been delivered, and it's receiving
ADSL2+ without any problems, so the problem must have been with the
first Be Box all along. So I don't think I'll bother replacing the
master socket now. Thanks for the help anyway though.