Minimal cost internet access

[Martin Brown]

This has always been a minor problem for people on limited means but we
are now seeing a new phenomena where people are giving up on their
landlines entirely just to save money in the current squeeze.

This leaves them exposed to pay by volume of data used on mobiles...

My goto fix for simple low cost (was zero cost) email and modest web
browsing based on Three's generous 200MB/month free forever deal has
been scrapped :( I recommended it to many impecunious ex-Demonites.
The deal still exists for those already on it but you can no longer
activate the SIM on that free tariff (not sure when it expired).

So I am now looking for cheap alternatives to help out the have nots.

Obviously one option is public libraries Wifi or eg Tesco cafes (which
might be the only realistic way to let Win10/11 update for them - it
seems to want GB downloads with monotonous regularity). This simple
solution failed dismally during the various Covid lockdowns.

Best buys I am aware of so far are (I have used these myself):

Three data SIM
3GB/90d SIM £8
12GB/12m SIM £25
24GB/24m SIM £35

There used to be something similar from EE but now they only seem to do
much larger lumps of data at a price point that is too high. Do any of
the other carriers do preloaded data only SIMs?

PAYG SIM only deals with 1pMobile. 1p/minute, 1p/text 1p/MB
(on the face of it what is not to like?)
Is there a catch?

A handful of 12 month contracts in the £4-8 range with 1-8GB of data
inclusive.

The Three ones 12 month contract (nothing under £10 for shorter) are:

1GB £6 - (4 + 8)/2
4BG £6.75 - (4.5 + 9)/2
8GB £7.50 - (5 + 10)/2

Price based on 6 months intro price plus 6 at full price.

SMARTY who I have never heard of appear to have a 15GB for £9 deal
https://smarty.co.uk/plans/15gb-data-only
(that is getting to the limit of what might be affordable)

There seem to be surprisingly few new tariffs offered with modest
amounts of data and prices that are under £10/month these days.

PAYG needs to allow tethering a phone and/or work in a dongle/Mifi to be
considered. I am less familiar with the options and pitfalls with them.

Last time I was on PAYG it actively prevented tethering (is that still
the case or do some now allow it?). Any other good bargains for modest
users of internet would be welcome (and also which bear traps to avoid).
It also needs to work for non-geeks and technophobes!

Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people with
restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask exactly the
right questions before their very existence is even acknowledged.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Woody]

IME most PAYG/bundles do now permit tethering.

In terms of offers you need to talk to Pete Forman at
https://payg.pythonanywhere.com/
who knows his way around tariffs better than the back of his hand. Go to
the bottom of his page for the email links.

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> My goto fix for simple low cost (was zero cost) email and modest web browsing
> based on Three's generous 200MB/month free forever deal has been scrapped :( I
> recommended it to many impecunious ex-Demonites.
> The deal still exists for those already on it but you can no longer activate the
> SIM on that free tariff (not sure when it expired).

I'm surprised 200MB/month is enough for anyone, I do keep one of them around for
emergencies, knowing I could buy some credit for it if needed, just logging on
to check it still works and see the balance seems to eat half the monthly allowance!

> PAYG SIM only deals with 1pMobile. 1p/minute, 1p/text 1p/MB
> (on the face of it what is not to like?)
> Is there a catch?

For some customers they implement a minimum monthly charge if you don't use
sufficient anyway.

> Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people with
> restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask exactly the right
> questions before their very existence is even acknowledged.

You need to make the end users aware how much data different types of access
(text, audio, video etc) can chew through or it can get expensive.

[Abandoned_Trolley]

> PAYG needs to allow tethering a phone and/or work in a dongle/Mifi to be
> considered. I am less familiar with the options and pitfalls with them.
>
> Last time I was on PAYG it actively prevented tethering (is that still
> the case or do some now allow it?). Any other good bargains for modest
> users of internet would be welcome (and also which bear traps to avoid).
> It also needs to work for non-geeks and technophobes!
>
> Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people with
> restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask exactly the
> right questions before their very existence is even acknowledged.
>

I am fairly certain that the operator has some way of knowing if you are
tethering, and I believe some of them will impose some limits on either
speed or volume (possibly at certain times of the day) if you are on an
unlimited data tariff

However ... I am assuming that if the SIM is put in one of those
massive tablets then "normal" service would continue ?

Alternatively, I don't suppose GiffGaff are the only operator offering
free access to their wifi hotspots, giving the customer unlimited data
with tariffs starting at £6 a month. Theres bound to be some regional
variations in the availability of hot spots though.

--
random signature text inserted here

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 25 July 2022 at 10:58:28 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
> > My goto fix for simple low cost (was zero cost) email and modest web browsing
> > based on Three's generous 200MB/month free forever deal has been scrapped :( I
> > recommended it to many impecunious ex-Demonites.
> > The deal still exists for those already on it but you can no longer activate the
> > SIM on that free tariff (not sure when it expired).

Three web site says it is still available (for £10 up front): -
https://3g.co.uk/three-data-reward-sim
OTOH don't always believe Three - they painted no EU roaming charges on the side of a bus and then promptly reneged
https://thedrum-media.imgix.net/thedrum-prod/s3/news/tmp/77017/three-4.jpg?w=608&ar=default&fit=crop&crop=faces,edges&auto=format&q=40&dpr=2
“Deal or no deal, our customers will save £187 million in roaming charges. Vote Three”.
https://www.threemediacentre.co.uk/content/go-roam-after-brexit/
Perhaps they were being ironic?

> I'm surprised 200MB/month is enough for anyone, I do keep one of them around for
> emergencies, knowing I could buy some credit for it if needed, just logging on
> to check it still works and see the balance seems to eat half the monthly allowance!

My partner has it as SIM2 in her phone and it seems to cover OK for things like checking bus times etc.

The other SIM is an O2 classic which for now is still 321.

> > PAYG SIM only deals with 1pMobile. 1p/minute, 1p/text 1p/MB
> > (on the face of it what is not to like?)
> > Is there a catch?
> For some customers they implement a minimum monthly charge if you don't use
> sufficient anyway.
> > Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people with
> > restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask exactly the right
> > questions before their very existence is even acknowledged.
> You need to make the end users aware how much data different types of access
> (text, audio, video etc) can chew through or it can get expensive.

Uswitch is very helpful in this regard.

The cheapest deal is £4, however a fiver a month gets you 4GB and unlimited everything else, 5G and EU roaming on a one month contract from Talkmobile
https://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/sim-only-deal/0409c0b3211007317084cd7f8bcaf05ffb3e0941/
runs on Voda.

4GB is all I have on my contract, it is on 24/7 and I have yet to use 1GB of it despite using way more than this over Wi-Fi.

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 25 July 2022 at 11:30:55 UTC+1, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
> > PAYG needs to allow tethering a phone and/or work in a dongle/Mifi to be
> > considered. I am less familiar with the options and pitfalls with them.
> >
> > Last time I was on PAYG it actively prevented tethering (is that still
> > the case or do some now allow it?). Any other good bargains for modest
> > users of internet would be welcome (and also which bear traps to avoid).
> > It also needs to work for non-geeks and technophobes!
> >
> > Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people with
> > restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask exactly the
> > right questions before their very existence is even acknowledged.
> >
> I am fairly certain that the operator has some way of knowing if you are
> tethering, and I believe some of them will impose some limits on either
> speed or volume (possibly at certain times of the day) if you are on an
> unlimited data tariff
>
> However ... I am assuming that if the SIM is put in one of those
> massive tablets then "normal" service would continue ?

Yes, I have one in a Samsung tablet. Can make phone calls and send SMS too.

>
> Alternatively, I don't suppose GiffGaff are the only operator offering
> free access to their wifi hotspots, giving the customer unlimited data
> with tariffs starting at £6 a month. Theres bound to be some regional
> variations in the availability of hot spots though.

BT give you access to their public ones, and millions of their Wi-Fi routers installed in customer premises if you have broadband or a SIM from them.
NB does NOT apply to EE.

O2 give you [unlimited] access to their hot spots, but they are not as common.

[Java Jive]

On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:
>

> Best buys I am aware of so far are (I have used these myself):
>
> Three data SIM
>  3GB/90d SIM      £8
> 12GB/12m SIM     £25
> 24GB/24m SIM     £35

Er, did you look here? I guess not ...

https://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/Plans_for_phones

Pay Monthly SIM only, £16pcm, 100GB Data
Pay Monthly SIM only, £23pcm, Unlimited Data

I'm on the second for all my internet access, as I decided that my
landline was poor value for money, and have discontinued it.

My 2-year contract has now expired, and they wrote to me to tell me so,
and that I needn't actually take out a new one, and - so far, touch
wood, etc, etc - they haven't tried the usual trick for that situation
of charging me more to encourage me to move onto a more expensive
contract, or, even worse, as Virgin did, just arbitrarily moving me onto
one anyway.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[Malcolm Loades]

> On Mon 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:
>> SMARTY who I have never heard of appear to have a 15GB for £9 deal
>> https://smarty.co.uk/plans/15gb-data-only
>> (that is getting to the limit of what might be affordable)

>>....

>> .... PAYG needs to allow tethering a phone and/or work in a dongle/Mifi to be

>> considered. I am less familiar with the options and pitfalls with them.

Yes, Smarty are the way to go. No contract. Tethering allowed. EU
roaming (12GB limit). No speed caps. 5G, 4G & 3G data etc.

Don't know where you got the 15GB for £9 from. Currently their website
offers 4GB for £6, 8GB for £7, 12GB for £8, 30GB for £10, 100GB for £12
and Unlimited for £18. These are not data only SIMs, they all include
unlimited calls and texts!

Beat that!

Malcolm

[Mark Undrill]

On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:

You could check out www.rwgmobile.wales. They do 250MB for free. A
number of other low-cost plans are available.

[Martin Brown]

On 25/07/2022 13:02, Mark Undrill wrote:
> On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:
>> This has always been a minor problem for people on limited means but we
>> are now seeing a new phenomena where people are giving up on their
>> landlines entirely just to save money in the current squeeze.
>>
>> This leaves them exposed to pay by volume of data used on mobiles...
>>
>> My goto fix for simple low cost (was zero cost) email and modest web
>> browsing based on Three's generous 200MB/month free forever deal has
>> been scrapped :( I recommended it to many impecunious ex-Demonites.

[snip]

>> Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people with
>> restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask exactly the
>> right questions before their very existence is even acknowledged.
>>
> You could check out www.rwgmobile.wales. They do 250MB for free. A
> number of other low-cost plans are available.

Thanks for the pointer. Anyone know of others like this?

Interesting - from another ISP I have never heard of reselling EE.

Deal seems to be £5 up front 250MB + 50 mins + 50 txts free for life
I expect some minimum keep alive spend is required or one chargeable
event every N months - haven't checked the small print in detail.

Or £15 up front 750MB + 100 mins + 100 txts free for life.

Couldn't determine if tethering was permitted from a quick look at the FAQs.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 25/07/2022 12:27, Java Jive wrote:
> On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>> Best buys I am aware of so far are (I have used these myself):
>>
>> Three data SIM
>>  3GB/90d SIM      £8
>> 12GB/12m SIM     £25
>> 24GB/24m SIM     £35
>
> Er, did you look here?  I guess not ...
>
> https://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/Plans_for_phones
>
> Pay Monthly SIM only, £16pcm, 100GB Data
> Pay Monthly SIM only, £23pcm, Unlimited Data

The objective is to spend no more than £10/pcm so that at least half of
the former BT monthly line rental is available for other purposes.

The individual I am specifically trying to help at the moment even an
additional £2/month expenditure is pushing it. They are unfortunately
wedded to their landline and don't at present have a mobile phone.

Since they have absolutely no internet access even 200MB would be a huge
amount for them. Alas the SIM I had kept to one side for such a rainy
day no longer allows registering for the free data forever deal :(

The deals I have already identified work out at £2.67, £2.08 and £1.46
pcm or GB. Snag is the last of these which is best value is at the high
end of what the people I'm aiming to help can afford in a single month.

> I'm on the second for all my internet access, as I decided that my
> landline was poor value for money, and have discontinued it.

Increasingly common although some elderly people are very reluctant to
do away with it even though they seldom actually use the thing. Care on
call and the like require a copper pair landline for example.

> My 2-year contract has now expired, and they wrote to me to tell me so,
> and that I needn't actually take out a new one, and  -  so far, touch
> wood, etc, etc  -  they haven't tried the usual trick for that situation
> of charging me more to encourage me to move onto a more expensive
> contract, or, even worse, as Virgin did, just arbitrarily moving me onto
> one anyway.

You could always try haggling with them for a better deal now that you
are free to leave.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Mark Undrill]

I understand that OFCOM decreed a few years ago that what users use
their data for is none of the providers business. I got the £15 deal a
while ago and tether with no problem.

[Java Jive]

On 25/07/2022 13:23, Martin Brown wrote:
>
> On 25/07/2022 12:27, Java Jive wrote:
>>
>> On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>
>>> Best buys I am aware of so far are (I have used these myself):
>>>
>>> Three data SIM
>>>  3GB/90d SIM      £8
>>> 12GB/12m SIM     £25
>>> 24GB/24m SIM     £35
>>
>> Er, did you look here?  I guess not ...
>>
>> https://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/Plans_for_phones
>>
>> Pay Monthly SIM only, £16pcm, 100GB Data
>> Pay Monthly SIM only, £23pcm, Unlimited Data
>
> The objective is to spend no more than £10/pcm so that at least half of
> the former BT monthly line rental is available for other purposes.

I was merely comparing your best prices listed above with what I was
able to find that was comparable, the latter being better value for
money, and there are other deals linked on the same page, with smaller
download limits, and therefore cheaper.

>> My 2-year contract has now expired, and they wrote to me to tell me
>> so, and that I needn't actually take out a new one, and  -  so far,
>> touch wood, etc, etc  -  they haven't tried the usual trick for that
>> situation of charging me more to encourage me to move onto a more
>> expensive contract, or, even worse, as Virgin did, just arbitrarily
>> moving me onto one anyway.
>
> You could always try haggling with them for a better deal now that you
> are free to leave.

We've had this argument before. Why would I want to do that, when,
compared with other deals as you have shown, the one that I have is
fairly priced, and the ISP are treating me fairly in allowing me to
continue on the same terms out of contract? The last thing I want is to
force Three to behave as unprincipledly as most other ISPs by being
unprincipled myself in haggling for a cheaper deal when the one that
I've got is already very reasonable. I'm perfectly content with the
deal that I have, and have no need, still less desire, to waste my time
haggling for a situation that would be untenable in the long term
because it would rely on others subsidising my internet connection.

[Pete Forman]

At £15 pm BT Home Essentials is fibre broadband though pricier than some
mobile deals. You need to be on Universal Credit or similar, see

https://www.bt.com/broadband/home-essentials

> IME most PAYG/bundles do now permit tethering.
>
> In terms of offers you need to talk to Pete Forman at
> https://payg.pythonanywhere.com/ who knows his way around tariffs
> better than the back of his hand. Go to the bottom of his page for the
> email links.

Thanks for the recommendation but my site is deliberately limited to
PAYG and does not list bundles or contracts. I do have a few links to
other sites including

https://kenstechtips.com/index.php/sim-only-deals#Compare_All_SIM_Only_Deals

--
Pete Forman
https://payg.pythonanywhere.com/

[Pete Forman]

Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> writes:

> Martin Brown wrote:
>> PAYG SIM only deals with 1pMobile. 1p/minute, 1p/text 1p/MB
>> (on the face of it what is not to like?)
>> Is there a catch?
>
> For some customers they implement a minimum monthly charge if you
> don't use sufficient anyway.

The top-up requirement is a minimum of £10 every 120 days which is an
effective monthly average of about £2.50. Unlike most bundles that
credit never expires (unless you lose your account through inactivity).

The mininum monthly charge is only for customers who signed up before
2021, so new customers are unaffected.

https://www.1pmobile.com/tariff-and-charges.taf

[Jeff Layman]

On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:

> Obviously one option is public libraries Wifi or eg Tesco cafes (which
> might be the only realistic way to let Win10/11 update for them - it
> seems to want GB downloads with monotonous regularity). This simple
> solution failed dismally during the various Covid lockdowns.

Can you get them to leave Windows and move to Linux Mint? It's free, and
updates are downloadable at the user's discretion. That should save a
bit of money if they're paying for xGB a month.

--

Jeff

[Chris]

On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:

SMARTY is my goto for cheap, temporary data access either in the UK or
abroad. Not sure why you highlighted their £9 deal as they start at £5
pm all on 30-day contracts:

2GB data only £5
1GB money back £6 (with upto £1 back each month)
4GB voice plan £6

The money back plans are good because you can buy more than you need,
but then if you don't use all the data you get a refund pro-rata of £1
per unused GB.
https://smarty.co.uk/data-rollover/

> There seem to be surprisingly few new tariffs offered with modest
> amounts of data and prices that are under £10/month these days.

I'm surprised you say that. Most MVNOs have tariffs below £10 pm.

My usual provider is IDmobile which starts at £6 pm for 4GB and any
unused data is rolled over for a month. So if you're a low data user you
can get upto 8GB in a given month.

Other MVNOs with low cost entry points are Plusnet and GiffGaff.

> PAYG needs to allow tethering a phone and/or work in a dongle/Mifi to be
> considered. I am less familiar with the options and pitfalls with them.
>
> Last time I was on PAYG it actively prevented tethering (is that still
> the case or do some now allow it?).

Not an issue any more.

> Any other good bargains for modest
> users of internet would be welcome (and also which bear traps to avoid).
> It also needs to work for non-geeks and technophobes!
>
> Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people with
> restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask exactly the
> right questions before their very existence is even acknowledged.

I think only BT does that, but it isn't particularly good value.

[Tweed]

Voxi (owned and operated by Vodafone) are currently offering 30Gb and
unlimited phone and text for £10/month

https://www.voxi.co.uk/plans

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> The objective is to spend no more than £10/pcm

I get 10GB of rolloverable data, unlimited calls and unlimited texts for
£7.00/month from Virgin on a 12 month SIM only contract.

[MikeS]

On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:

> This has always been a minor problem for people on limited means but we
> are now seeing a new phenomena where people are giving up on their
> landlines entirely just to save money in the current squeeze.
>
> This leaves them exposed to pay by volume of data used on mobiles...
>

Those on benefits can get a BT Basic landline with Basic Internet for
about £10 per month, unlimited data.

[Pete Forman]

That was discontinued last year, it was replaced by BT Home Essentials
at £15 pm plus setup charges.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/05/bt-fibre-broadband-deal-low-income-benefits/


When I applied for BT Basic for a relative it took several months and
much chasing to put in place. In mitigation we did get a retrospective
refund. Feedback elsewhere indicates that I am not the only one to
encounter this. I fear that many who are entitled to this benefit will
have given up.

[Theo]

notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 25 July 2022 at 10:58:28 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Martin Brown wrote:
> >
> > > My goto fix for simple low cost (was zero cost) email and modest web browsing
> > > based on Three's generous 200MB/month free forever deal has been scrapped :( I
> > > recommended it to many impecunious ex-Demonites.
> > > The deal still exists for those already on it but you can no longer activate the
> > > SIM on that free tariff (not sure when it expired).
>
> Three web site says it is still available (for £10 up front): -
> https://3g.co.uk/three-data-reward-sim

That's not Three's site, it's a third party site with a confusing name. It
may be out of date.

> The other SIM is an O2 classic which for now is still 321.

I'm not sure if you can still sign up with those - they don't offer the SIMs
any more, but old-stock SIMs are floating around ebay etc.

> > > PAYG SIM only deals with 1pMobile. 1p/minute, 1p/text 1p/MB
> > > (on the face of it what is not to like?)
> > > Is there a catch?
> > For some customers they implement a minimum monthly charge if you don't use
> > sufficient anyway.

The 1pmobile thing is not a minimum charge, it's a minimum topup. So you
must pay £10/4months which works out at £2.50 per month. You could say it's
like a contract for 250MB at £2.50/month, although you're also free to spend
the credit on calls instead of data if you want. Which is not cheap per se,
but if your level of usage is low enough it could work out better than other
options.

Theo

[Martin Brown]

On 25/07/2022 16:13, Pete Forman wrote:
> Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>> On Mon 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people
>>> with restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask
>>> exactly the right questions before their very existence is even
>>> acknowledged.
>
> At £15 pm BT Home Essentials is fibre broadband though pricier than some
> mobile deals. You need to be on Universal Credit or similar, see
>
> https://www.bt.com/broadband/home-essentials

Thanks very much for the link and also for your website of summary price
sorted PAYG tariffs that Woody pointed at in a neighbouring reply.

One snag is that some of these people *should* be on Universal Credit or
Incapacity Benefit (or whatever it is now called) but don't bother.
Perhaps this squeeze will cause them to actually apply for it.

£15/month is a fair bit cheaper than a standard BT tariff so if they
qualify then that is one option and also a path of least resistance.
Many elderly folk are very reluctant to give up on their landline.

>> IME most PAYG/bundles do now permit tethering.
>>
>> In terms of offers you need to talk to Pete Forman at
>> https://payg.pythonanywhere.com/ who knows his way around tariffs
>> better than the back of his hand. Go to the bottom of his page for the
>> email links.
>
> Thanks for the recommendation but my site is deliberately limited to
> PAYG and does not list bundles or contracts. I do have a few links to
> other sites including
>
> https://kenstechtips.com/index.php/sim-only-deals#Compare_All_SIM_Only_Deals

Thanks for that link too. It confirms my instinct that there is a floor
at £5 pcm and that best buy contracts are pretty much of a muchness.

Lebara looks like a clear winner for absolute lowest monthly cost £4.50.

But they seem to have the same 1000, 1000, 3GB deal for £4.50 and £5!

SMARTY is also a bit confusing there are two offerings for £5

Unlimited, Unlimited, 4GB
and
Unlimited, Unlimited, 2GB

I cannot see why anyone would opt for the latter deal. Typo?
Usually you trade some talk minutes for extra data (like Three).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

That is an interesting amount. Any other ISP's do rollover data?

If it smooths out the average use with the odd peak it could be helpful.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

Not realistically. These are not Unix geeks (or any other sort of geek).
They are just about comfortable with what they have and see no reason to
change (except that they are forced to do something by prices rising).

The worst one I have had to deal with recently was still on Win 98SE!
So old that it couldn't mount USB mass storage devices.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

Thanks for the heads up that it may be a bit tedious to obtain.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Theo]

It isn't described that way, but the 1pmobile deal where you topup £10/4months
could be seen to offer rollover data. That works out at 250MB per month but there's
no requirement to actually spend all the topup. So you have to do the
regular topup but you can build up credit (ie data) forever, with no expiry.

They offer auto-topup where it'll topup the balance when the 4 months are
up, or you run the balance below £2. So if you don't mind keeping a card
registered you can use it without worrying about forgetting the topups.
(every £10 you add extends the date by 120 days, so if you topup by £20 you
get 240 more days, etc)

Theo

[Mark Carver]

On 26/07/2022 13:39, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 25/07/2022 19:12, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> The objective is to spend no more than £10/pcm
>>
>> I get 10GB of rolloverable data, unlimited calls and unlimited texts
>> for £7.00/month from Virgin on a 12 month SIM only contract.
>>
> That is an interesting amount. Any other ISP's do rollover data?

Sky Mobile do rollover data on all their SIM plans

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> SMARTY is also a bit confusing there are two offerings for £5
>
> Unlimited, Unlimited, 4GB
> and
> Unlimited, Unlimited, 2GB
>
> I cannot see why anyone would opt for the latter deal.

Why do people buy smaller boxes of cereal from the shelves when a larger size is
on special offer at cheaper for more?

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I get 10GB of rolloverable data, unlimited calls and unlimited texts for
>> £7.00/month from Virgin on a 12 month SIM only contract.
>>
> That is an interesting amount. Any other ISP's do rollover data?

The virgin one only rolls over by one month, but I find it useful, I think Sky
(and maybe IDmobile?) do up to a year rollover.

[Mark Carver]

Sky's rollover is up to 3 years

[Martin Brown]

Innumeracy?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

Thanks for clarifying. Nothing beats the experience of an actual user.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Java Jive]

Or a larger box would go stale before they can eat it all.

[Woody]

One other option Martin is to get said persons on the cheapest broadband
tariff you can find and then put them on VoIP with Sipgate or similar.
Their existing number can be ported, and you can either get a VoIP
interface such as a Linksys/Cisco PAP2T or a Vonage box that you can
unlock (easy), or get a SIPphone - plenty on fleabay.

[Woody]

Yes, but Sky's is a formal contract, not PAYG with or without a bundle.

[Roger Mills]

On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:

> This has always been a minor problem for people on limited means but we
> are now seeing a new phenomena where people are giving up on their
> landlines entirely just to save money in the current squeeze.
>
> This leaves them exposed to pay by volume of data used on mobiles...
>

> My goto fix for simple low cost (was zero cost) email and modest web
> browsing based on Three's generous 200MB/month free forever deal has
> been scrapped :( I recommended it to many impecunious ex-Demonites.
> The deal still exists for those already on it but you can no longer
> activate the SIM on that free tariff (not sure when it expired).
>

> So I am now looking for cheap alternatives to help out the have nots.
>

> Obviously one option is public libraries Wifi or eg Tesco cafes (which
> might be the only realistic way to let Win10/11 update for them - it
> seems to want GB downloads with monotonous regularity). This simple
> solution failed dismally during the various Covid lockdowns.
>

> Best buys I am aware of so far are (I have used these myself):
>
> Three data SIM
>  3GB/90d SIM      £8
> 12GB/12m SIM     £25
> 24GB/24m SIM     £35
>
> There used to be something similar from EE but now they only seem to do
> much larger lumps of data at a price point that is too high. Do any of
> the other carriers do preloaded data only SIMs?
>

> PAYG SIM only deals with 1pMobile. 1p/minute, 1p/text 1p/MB
> (on the face of it what is not to like?)
> Is there a catch?
>

> A handful of 12 month contracts in the £4-8 range with 1-8GB of data
> inclusive.
>
> The Three ones 12 month contract (nothing under £10 for shorter) are:
>
> 1GB £6         - (4 + 8)/2
> 4BG £6.75    - (4.5 + 9)/2
> 8GB £7.50    - (5 + 10)/2
>
> Price based on 6 months intro price plus 6 at full price.
>
> SMARTY who I have never heard of appear to have a 15GB for £9 deal
> https://smarty.co.uk/plans/15gb-data-only
> (that is getting to the limit of what might be affordable)
>

> There seem to be surprisingly few new tariffs offered with modest
> amounts of data and prices that are under £10/month these days.
>

> PAYG needs to allow tethering a phone and/or work in a dongle/Mifi to be
> considered. I am less familiar with the options and pitfalls with them.
>
> Last time I was on PAYG it actively prevented tethering (is that still

> the case or do some now allow it?). Any other good bargains for modest

> users of internet would be welcome (and also which bear traps to avoid).
> It also needs to work for non-geeks and technophobes!
>

> Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people with
> restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask exactly the
> right questions before their very existence is even acknowledged.
>

I'm surprised that no-one's mentioned PlusNet Mobile.

You can get 5GB of data and unlimited minutes and texts for £6 per month
on a rolling 30 day contract - so there's no tie-in. Roaming in Europe
is still free, and tethering is permitted. If you're also a PN BB
customer (not applicable in the case of the OP) you get "mates' rates"
which provides an extra 2GB of data. That's what I use on my phone.
Because I've also got PN fibre BB, I only use mobile date when away from
WiFi, and never get anywhere near using my 7GB of data. But the standard
5GB would be enough for light users even if that was their only source
of internet.

Another thing which may be worth considering is what I do at my holiday
flat. I got rid of the landline a while ago, and now have a permanently
installed 4G router. I bought a 120GB EE SIM - valid for 12 months - for
£50 from Argos. [They're still available]. That provides an average of
10GB per month (with effective rollover during the 12 month period if
you don't use it all) for just over £4 per month.

--
Cheers,
Roger

[Andy Burns]

Roger Mills wrote:

> I'm surprised that no-one's mentioned PlusNet Mobile.

One thing PN mobile doesn't support is replying to text messages from short
codes, it might not matter[1] so much now, previously my bank would send a text
to confirm "suspicious" transactions, and I couldn't reply to say "no that's
genuine"



[1] now my bank sends such confirmations via my mobile app, not as SMS.

[Chris]

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> On 25/07/2022 19:12, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> The objective is to spend no more than £10/pcm
>>
>> I get 10GB of rolloverable data, unlimited calls and unlimited texts for
>> £7.00/month from Virgin on a 12 month SIM only contract.
>>
> That is an interesting amount. Any other ISP's do rollover data?

IDmobile. Starting at £6 pm on a 30-day contract.

[Chris]

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

They're different plans. One is price capped so you're never charged more
than a fiver and the 4GB one is a special deal - usually £6.

[Tweed]

The bit missing from this discussion is that the OP’s friend needs decent
reception from whatever network is chosen. All the cheap deals that are
based on the 3 network turn to dust if you have poor reception.

[Chris]

Mark Undrill <sp...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 25/07/2022 13:20, Martin Brown wrote:

>> On 25/07/2022 13:02, Mark Undrill wrote:
>>> On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>> This has always been a minor problem for people on limited means but we
>>>> are now seeing a new phenomena where people are giving up on their
>>>> landlines entirely just to save money in the current squeeze.
>>>>
>>>> This leaves them exposed to pay by volume of data used on mobiles...
>>>>
>>>> My goto fix for simple low cost (was zero cost) email and modest web
>>>> browsing based on Three's generous 200MB/month free forever deal has
>>>> been scrapped :( I recommended it to many impecunious ex-Demonites.
>>

>> [snip]

>>>> Guidance on any special tariffs that might be available for people with
>>>> restricted means would also be very helpful. You have to ask exactly the
>>>> right questions before their very existence is even acknowledged.
>>>>

>>> You could check out www.rwgmobile.wales. They do 250MB for free. A
>>> number of other low-cost plans are available.
>>
>> Thanks for the pointer. Anyone know of others like this?
>>
>> Interesting - from another ISP I have never heard of reselling EE.
>>
>> Deal seems to be £5 up front 250MB + 50 mins + 50 txts free for life
>> I expect some minimum keep alive spend is required or one chargeable
>> event every N months - haven't checked the small print in detail.
>>
>> Or £15 up front 750MB + 100 mins + 100 txts free for life.
>>
>> Couldn't determine if tethering was permitted from a quick look at the FAQs.
>>
> I understand that OFCOM decreed a few years ago that what users use
> their data for is none of the providers business. I got the £15 deal a
> while ago and tether with no problem.

It was also daft. Why limit data use when encouraging users to go over
their allowance was very profitable?

[Theo]

Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark Undrill <sp...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > I understand that OFCOM decreed a few years ago that what users use
> > their data for is none of the providers business. I got the £15 deal a
> > while ago and tether with no problem.
>
> It was also daft. Why limit data use when encouraging users to go over
> their allowance was very profitable?

It was because they could sell much more data than people actually used,
because they didn't really know how much they needed. Sell people a '100GB'
or 'unlimited' bundle where the average user uses 5GB, kerching. But if
they start using that data, they might find the network doesn't actually
have the capacity to deliver it, and sooner or later you'll have to shell
out for some costly network upgrades.

They knew that phone users weren't big data consumers (even if you stream a
lot, it's often only 720p video and people only watch so many hours a day),
but laptops used more data and often when the user wasn't doing anything
(torrents, all those Windows updates...). So the tethering ban was to
prevent people from using the data they had paid for.

(while going over is profitable, 'bill shock' laws limit it, and on PAYG you
just burn through any spare credit until it stops working. So it's hard for
the network to count on this happening on a regular basis)

Theo

[Chris]

That's true of all networks, not just Three.

[Tweed]

Indeed it is, but three has some of the lowest geographic coverage. It is
one reason they sell their airtime relatively cheaply compared to the other
networks. There’s also a good chance that these cheap deals might evaporate
in the future as 3 is busily trying to sell itself to one of the other
networks. But that’s probably a couple of years down the line at least
before the consumer gets hit.

[Mark Carver]

On 27/07/2022 07:17, Tweed wrote:
> Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 25/07/2022 19:12, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The objective is to spend no more than £10/pcm
>>>>>> I get 10GB of rolloverable data, unlimited calls and unlimited texts for
>>>>>> £7.00/month from Virgin on a 12 month SIM only contract.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That is an interesting amount. Any other ISP's do rollover data?
>>>> IDmobile. Starting at £6 pm on a 30-day contract.
>>>>
>>>>> If it smooths out the average use with the odd peak it could be helpful.
>>>>>
>>> The bit missing from this discussion is that the OP’s friend needs decent
>>> reception from whatever network is chosen. All the cheap deals that are
>>> based on the 3 network turn to dust if you have poor reception.
>> That's true of all networks, not just Three.
>>
>>
> Indeed it is, but three has some of the lowest geographic coverage.

Well, it depends. My wife switched from Three to Sky (in effect O2) 18
months ago.
Anecdotally on our, and her travels O2's coverage is worse than Three's.
YMMV.

[Tweed]

There’s some figures here

https://www.choose.co.uk/guide/mobile-phone-network-with-best-coverage.html

[Martin Brown]

It is multiple people (although one of them is also my friend) community
outreach to the internet have nots or more precisely about to have nots.

Network coverage is testing OK for Three, EE and Vodaphone.

O2 used to be OK until they rationalised their coverage.
(I was once on that network until it stopped working at my home)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

I found O2 to be by far the worst coverage. It was OK once upon a time
but they took over or got taken over by another player and then
rationalised their masts. Signal here went from good to none at all.

I moved to EE as a result. My wife is on Three. We find that the two
networks taken together offer nearly complete geographic coverage
anywhere that has line of sight on a phone mast. Obviously nothing can
help in steep ravines where nothing can get a signal.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 26/07/2022 17:03, Woody wrote:

> One other option Martin is to get said persons on the cheapest broadband
> tariff you can find and then put them on VoIP with Sipgate or similar.
> Their existing number can be ported, and you can either get a VoIP
> interface such as a Linksys/Cisco PAP2T or a Vonage box that you can
> unlock (easy), or get a SIPphone - plenty on fleabay.

I think that might be a bridge too far. I will be aiming to write the
guidelines and flowchart for other unskilled volunteer advisors to use.
I don't want to be personally drawn into supporting end users.

The one exception here is my friend whom I already support directly. It
was through looking at his problems I realised how common this scenario
is likely to become as the cost of energy continues ever upwards.

I wasn't confident in my own abilities to follow the convoluted path of
moving my existing ADSL2+ connection to VOIP prior to getting full fibre
so I would feel very exposed trying to explain how to do it!

That was one of the reasons why I moved to BT full fibre when I upgraded
last year - that way I got to keep my (well known locally) geographic
landline number with no pain and suffering. They pinched my copper line
pair back by an upgrade to "Digital Voice" VOIP about 2 months after the
line was installed. Working copper line pairs round here are as rare as
rocking horse shit and the local engineers knew I had a particularly
good one. I used to get 5M sync average in the village is 2M.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> O2 used to be OK until they rationalised their coverage.

Presumably you're talking about "refarming" of frequencies between 2G/3G/4G/5G
provision? That can have different effects depending on the phone, better for
some, worse for others ...

[Theo]

Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There’s some figures here
>
> https://www.choose.co.uk/guide/mobile-phone-network-with-best-coverage.html

That only covers 4G - much of the time on Three I get a 3G HSPA+ signal
which works just fine. I'm not streaming video with it, but then that would
be a bad idea on PAYG at 5p/MB...

Theo

[Tweed]

But 4G is relevant. All the networks are busy closing down as much 3G
service as they can.

[Theo]

They are refarming 3G to 4G and 5G, which means the same transmitter sites
using the same bands. When they do that I expect the reception to be the
same, although obviously not for people with only 3G capable phones.

Given that VoLTE is still not universal among 4G phones in use, they will
have to keep the 3G network running for voice calls - which is
straightforward to do, just keep a slice of 3G going when you refarm. Just
don't expect to have as much data bandwidth over 3G as you once did if you
only have a 3G phone. But if you have a 4G phone you won't need to use 3G
for data, and maybe non-VoLTE phones will be limited to only using the 3G
for voice.

(remains to be seen how much they will refarm 3G directly to 5G, but I
expect a cell will at least offer some 4G spectrum, so if you don't have a
5G phone you can still get a 4G signal)

Theo

[Pete Forman]

This thread has discussed national coverage (inter alia!). That is not
directly relevant, it is good enough that a network's reception is
adequate at the home where wired is being replaced. Though I supppose
Martin (OP) would prefer a general solution.

--
Pete Forman
https://payg.pythonanywhere.com/

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 25 July 2022 at 13:23:20 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:

> On 25/07/2022 12:27, Java Jive wrote:
> > On 25/07/2022 10:07, Martin Brown wrote:
> >>

> >> Best buys I am aware of so far are (I have used these myself):
> >>
> >> Three data SIM
> >> 3GB/90d SIM £8
> >> 12GB/12m SIM £25
> >> 24GB/24m SIM £35
> >

> > Er, did you look here? I guess not ...
> >
> > https://www.three.co.uk/Store/SIM/Plans_for_phones
> >
> > Pay Monthly SIM only, £16pcm, 100GB Data
> > Pay Monthly SIM only, £23pcm, Unlimited Data
> The objective is to spend no more than £10/pcm so that at least half of
> the former BT monthly line rental is available for other purposes.
>
> The individual I am specifically trying to help at the moment even an
> additional £2/month expenditure is pushing it. They are unfortunately
> wedded to their landline and don't at present have a mobile phone.
>

They might be entitled to T's low user rate (~£5pm), and IIRC they will chuck in about 10GB of broadband for another fiver.

Still more expensive than a mobile connection.

>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

[Clive Page]

On 26/07/2022 17:50, Roger Mills wrote:
> I'm surprised that no-one's mentioned PlusNet Mobile.
>
> You can get 5GB of data and unlimited minutes and texts for £6 per month on a rolling 30 day contract - so there's no tie-in. Roaming in Europe is still free, and tethering is permitted. If you're also a PN BB customer (not applicable in the case of the OP) you get "mates' rates" which provides an extra 2GB of data. That's what I use on my phone. Because I've also got PN fibre BB, I only use mobile date when away from WiFi, and never get anywhere near using my 7GB of data. But the standard 5GB would be enough for light users even if that was their only source of internet.

I might have been tempted myself but I'm an existing customer of Plusnet for broadband. The broadband service we get from them is fine (except when OpenReach play about with local cables or connections, which is hardly the fault of Plusnet) but Plusnet's billing and admin over the last couple of years has been the worst I've ever experienced from a utility company, despite stiff competition from gas and electricity suppliers. They get things right eventually when you complain, but only after you spend hours on the phone, so you may need to factor that into your calculations.


--
Clive Page

[notya...@gmail.com]

Plusnet is part of BT, you always spend hours on the phone with BT when you try and change anything.

[Chris Green]

Clive Page <use...@page2.eu> wrote:
> the fault of Plusnet) but Plusnet's billing and admin over the last couple
> of years has been the worst I've ever experienced from a utility company,
> despite stiff competition from gas and electricity suppliers. They get
> things right eventually when you complain, but only after you spend hours
> on the phone, so you may need to factor that into your calculations.
>

I have yet to find *any* utility (including phone) company whose
'billing and admin' could possibly be regarded as even competant.

We have this crazy system here in the UK where the companies we buy
electricity and gas from have no other function than buying and
selling 'invisible' stuff. As a result, for some weird reason, they
are completely hopeless at the only thing they have to do!

I have had to 'talk to' half a dozen or so and they are all without
exception **awful**.

--
Chris Green
·

[Chris]

I was pleasantly surprised recently with PN. I had to ring up because a
bolt-on wasn't applied and they picked up after the first ring and solved
it straight away.

Honestly, I never had the billing problems people seem to get exercised
about. I don't even know how things go wrong there's so little to charge
for these days of all incisive deals.

[Roger Mills]

Yes, that is a limitation. It doesn't worry me but it might affect some
people.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[Ponyface]

On 26/07/2022 14:42, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>

>> SMARTY is also a bit confusing there are two offerings for £5
>>
>> Unlimited, Unlimited, 4GB
>> and
>> Unlimited, Unlimited, 2GB
>>
>> I cannot see why anyone would opt for the latter deal.
>

> Why do people buy smaller boxes of cereal from the shelves when a larger
> size is on special offer at cheaper for more?


IT WONT FIT IN THEIR CUPBOARD.

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 31 July 2022 at 16:06:22 UTC+1, Ponyface wrote:
> On 26/07/2022 14:42, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Martin Brown wrote:
> >
> >> SMARTY is also a bit confusing there are two offerings for £5
> >>
> >> Unlimited, Unlimited, 4GB
> >> and
> >> Unlimited, Unlimited, 2GB
> >>
> >> I cannot see why anyone would opt for the latter deal.

Probably a shorter contract length.

[Clive Page]

On 31/07/2022 11:05, Chris wrote:
> Honestly, I never had the billing problems people seem to get exercised
> about. I don't even know how things go wrong there's so little to charge
> for these days of all incisive deals.

Well just received my latest broadband bill, much simpler than any of the others I've had in recent months as I've now gone in for a new inclusive deal, but still it says:

Qty Description From To Gross
Your charges broken down
Page
1 Balance brought forward £21.50
1 Line Rental 02/08/22 01/09/22 £23.19
1 Promotional Discount 02/08/22 01/09/22 -£1.69
1 Weekends 02/08/22 01/09/22 £0.00
1 Plusnet Call Protect 02/08/22 01/09/22 £0.00
1 Unlimited Fibre 02/08/22 01/09/22 £18.56
1 Promotional Discount 02/08/22 01/09/22 -£18.56
1 Caller Display 02/08/22 01/09/22 £0.00
1 Voicemail 02/08/22 01/09/22 £0.00
1 Payment 11/07/22 11/07/22 -£21.50

Not exactly easy to work out out what I'm paying for and why.


--
Clive Page

[Roger Mills]

I thought it was fairly clear.

All you're paying is Line Rental at a discounted price of £21.50
(normally £23.19)

You're getting weekend calls, Call Protect (whatever that is), caller
display and voicemail all for free.

You're getting unlimited fibre for free (£18.56 offset by a discount of
the same amount)

Sounds like a good deal to me!

--
Cheers,
Roger

[Martin Brown]

On 30/07/2022 20:19, Chris Green wrote:
> Clive Page <use...@page2.eu> wrote:
>> the fault of Plusnet) but Plusnet's billing and admin over the last couple
>> of years has been the worst I've ever experienced from a utility company,
>> despite stiff competition from gas and electricity suppliers. They get
>> things right eventually when you complain, but only after you spend hours
>> on the phone, so you may need to factor that into your calculations.
>>
> I have yet to find *any* utility (including phone) company whose
> 'billing and admin' could possibly be regarded as even competant.

They do vary a lot in terms of quality of billing and quite how
incomprehensible they manage to make it. Obfuscation is common.

>
> We have this crazy system here in the UK where the companies we buy
> electricity and gas from have no other function than buying and
> selling 'invisible' stuff. As a result, for some weird reason, they
> are completely hopeless at the only thing they have to do!

They are just as bad at buying the stuff they sell as they are at
billing consumers which is why so many of them went pop last year (and a
few more will likely go pop very shortly). The remaining ones still
standing after the next shake down may well be "too big to fail" so the
taxpayer will get landed with the bill of sorting out the mess caused by
a clueless bunch of cowboys in the privatise everything jamboree.

OFGEM was asleep at the wheel and allowed morons to enter the consumer
energy resale market with no clue about what it was they were doing.

>
> I have had to 'talk to' half a dozen or so and they are all without
> exception **awful**.

The odd water company customer service can be quite helpful. nPower is
the pits. The rest are somewhere in between those extremes.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown