What do UK robot builders / buyers want?
Justin
do you source your parts from currently?
I'm trying to get a handle on the kind of robot building that is going on
around the UK, where most of it is happening, and what the most common
problems are with finding components, modules and kits etc.
In my opinion, when compared to the USA, we appear to be lagging some way
behind with our take up of personal / recreational / educational robotics
projects. The majority of UK web resources I have located so far have
suggested that we are mostly building in colleges as part of a technical
design course, or in some (very few) universities as part of a core AI /
robotics course. There also appear to be a few isolated recreational or
sporting activities such as MicroMouse contests, which by and large are not
widely communicated. When was the last time you saw an advert in your local
paper for an up-coming science fair or robotics competition?
Is there anyone out there with one or more friends, colleagues or family
members that are also interested in robotics as a hobby? Is anyone actually
a member of a robotics club, whether part of a school or not, and if so,
what are you up to?
The main reason for asking these questions is simply to find out if we in
the UK are building robots in complete isolation from each other or whether
there is an active "underground" robotics scene that for some reason gets
precisely zero publicity.
This NG has been too quiet for too long and I'm hoping this post will spark
some decent conversations about general robotics experimentation in the UK.
If we're going to raise awareness, we need to start thinking about what the
problems are for the people that are not tempted to try this stuff out, and
figure out how we might begin resolving them.
Any and all feedback is welcome.
Regards,
Justin.
Robin G Hewitt
The problem with getting parts in the UK are the rip off prices charged for
anything slightly out of the ordinary. For example you can easily pay 16
quid for a 1 quid ball race or timing pulley if you don't know where to go
and heaven help you if you want a ball screw or bushing.
I know precisely 2 people, (apart from the web) who can understand, or have
the slightest interest in my robotic designs, triumphs and set backs. One is
my brother, the other is the chap who joins me for lunchtime dog walking up
in Friston Forest.
The Americans don't seem to do much creative work. There are three main
streams, those who work exclusively with off the shelf solutions, those who
sell them those solutions and those who dwell in the cloudy realms of
academia.
In the UK we seem to be limited to building large scale RC cars with teeth
for destruction derby's and ultra specialised gizmo's for the techno games.
Neither of which seem to have the adaptability which characterises the word
robot for me.
There are a few shining lights that brighten this rather drab scene, but for
the most part that is how I see it. I have great fun designing my little
drive trains and dreaming of the day when I finally start building it, but
those wanting to socialise could easily find a better passtime.
best regards
Robin G Hewitt
Bill Marshall
ones for education. These are generally small 'buggy' type wheeled robots
only requiring small dc motors and gearboxes. Rapid Electronics stock a nice
range of parts as do Commotion Group. Interest in robotics in the UK seems
to centre around Robot Wars and BBC Technogames, neither of which seem to
feature much in the way of intelligent or autonomous robots. Personally it
is the intelligence side that interests me, not the ability to create
mayhem.
The level of interest in engineering in the UK is unfortunately heading
rapidly towards zero - there are literally hundreds of vacancies for Design
and Technology teachers, but few takers. This is a subject about which I
could rant for hours, but to be a bit more positive have a look at the
RoboFesta web site
at:
http://www.robofesta-europe.org/britain/ . It is soon to be revamped, so
don't be too critical!
I publish a lot of my work on my own website (including more links to parts
suppliers):
http://www.wgmarshall.freeserve.co.uk/ .
A lot of kids worldwide are building Cybot:
http://www.realrobots.co.uk/index-normal.html
The engineering is terrible, but at least it should spark some interest in
robotics.
Bill Marshall
"Justin" <.@.> wrote in message
news:JOnza.9237$0a4.1...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
Brian Bibby
> If you were going to build a robot, what would you go looking for, and
where
> do you source your parts from currently?
Kits and modules, servos and RC parts, motors and gears, controllers, sheet
plastics, solvents, resins, ICs and components, hardware, tools.
Mostly obtained from http://www.milinst.com/,
https://catalogue.maplin.co.uk/, http://hobby.uk.com/,
http://www.farnell.co.uk/, http://www.westgroup.co.uk/,
http://www.expotools.com/start.htm, http://www.totalrobots.com/index.htm,
local RC hobby shop, corporation tip, anywhere thats got what I'm looking
for.
> I'm trying to get a handle on the kind of robot building that is going on
> around the UK, where most of it is happening, and what the most common
> problems are with finding components, modules and kits etc.
I like to tinker with robots occasionally as a hobby, it draws on a wide
range of skills (jack of all - master of none) as it satisfies my technical
creativity. I mostly prefer walking ones because they're more
interesting/challenging than wheels, hexapods generally as I find they're
easier and cheaper.
Finding parts at the right price in the UK is a challenge.
> In my opinion, when compared to the USA, we appear to be lagging some way
> behind with our take up of personal / recreational / educational robotics
> projects. The majority of UK web resources I have located so far have
> suggested that we are mostly building in colleges as part of a technical
> design course, or in some (very few) universities as part of a core AI /
> robotics course. There also appear to be a few isolated recreational or
> sporting activities such as MicroMouse contests, which by and large are
not
> widely communicated. When was the last time you saw an advert in your
local
> paper for an up-coming science fair or robotics competition?
I agree, in the UK it seems to be the province of industry and academia,
aside from a few "Robot War" type events (gratuitous violence) I've only
ever seen one, a small international walking robot exhibition and conference
(http://www.clawar.com/) hosted by Portsmouth University some years ago.
> Is there anyone out there with one or more friends, colleagues or family
> members that are also interested in robotics as a hobby?
Aside from friends that are amused by my failures, I know of no-one
professionally or socially that are doing anything with robots.
> Is anyone actually a member of a robotics club, whether part of a school
or not, and if so,
> what are you up to?
No but I would like to participate in a club, but I'm not motivated enough
to start one.
> The main reason for asking these questions is simply to find out if we in
> the UK are building robots in complete isolation from each other or
whether
> there is an active "underground" robotics scene that for some reason gets
> precisely zero publicity.
I think we're just too thinly spread.
Regards
Brian
PS. Anyone know of a source of cheap low voltage (5/12 DC) solenoid valves
I could use with some Air Muscles
(http://www.shadow.org.uk/products/airmuscles.shtml)?
---
AVG : "Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free."
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 13/05/2003
Brian Bibby
> If you were going to build a robot, what would you go looking for, and
where
> do you source your parts from currently?
Kits and modules, servos and RC parts, motors and gears, controllers, sheet
plastics, solvents, resins, ICs and components, hardware, tools.
Mostly obtained from http://www.milinst.com/,
https://catalogue.maplin.co.uk/, http://hobby.uk.com/,
http://www.farnell.co.uk/, http://www.westgroup.co.uk/,
http://www.expotools.com/start.htm, http://www.totalrobots.com/index.htm,
local RC hobby shop, corporation tip, anywhere thats got what I'm looking
for.
> I'm trying to get a handle on the kind of robot building that is going on
> around the UK, where most of it is happening, and what the most common
> problems are with finding components, modules and kits etc.
I like to tinker with robots occasionally as a hobby, it draws on a wide
range of skills (jack of all - master of none) as it satisfies my technical
creativity. I mostly prefer walking ones because they're more
interesting/challenging than wheels, hexapods generally as I find they're
easier and cheaper.
Finding parts at the right price in the UK is a challenge.
> In my opinion, when compared to the USA, we appear to be lagging some way
> behind with our take up of personal / recreational / educational robotics
> projects. The majority of UK web resources I have located so far have
> suggested that we are mostly building in colleges as part of a technical
> design course, or in some (very few) universities as part of a core AI /
> robotics course. There also appear to be a few isolated recreational or
> sporting activities such as MicroMouse contests, which by and large are
not
> widely communicated. When was the last time you saw an advert in your
local
> paper for an up-coming science fair or robotics competition?
I agree, in the UK it seems to be the province of industry and academia,
aside from a few "Robot War" type events (gratuitous violence) I've only
ever seen one, a small international walking robot exhibition and conference
(http://www.clawar.com/) hosted by Portsmouth University some years ago.
> Is there anyone out there with one or more friends, colleagues or family
> members that are also interested in robotics as a hobby?
Aside from friends that are amused by my failures, I know of no-one
professionally or socially that are doing anything with robots.
> Is anyone actually a member of a robotics club, whether part of a school
or not, and if so,
> what are you up to?
No but I would like to participate in a club, but I'm not motivated enough
to start one.
> The main reason for asking these questions is simply to find out if we in
> the UK are building robots in complete isolation from each other or
whether
> there is an active "underground" robotics scene that for some reason gets
> precisely zero publicity.
I think we're just too thinly spread.
Burgerman
"Brian Bibby" <b.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:mGKza.679$OP4...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> Hi Justin,
>
cut stuff.....
>
> I think we're just too thinly spread.
>
Speak for yourself! I'm thick!
--
My robot/powerchair? www.fatnfast.com/robot
My batteries www.optimabattery.co.uk
My stuff... www.burgerman.info
DIY automotive Nitrous Injection... www.nitrous.info
My water cooled PC... www.jedibible.com
Outsider
where
> do you source your parts from currently?
This is a big problem in the UK that faces other areas such as Amateur
Radio. The hobby end of the market is declining and has been for a number
of years. Locally to me there where 3 electronics shops, plus Maplin and
Tandy. Today there is one remaining electronics shop that carries a handful
of parts, very little surplus but will order from RS, Farnel for an
additional 10%-15%. Tandy has gone and Maplin outlets seem only able to
send the parts you want on, as they don't carry much stock. The demand
isn't there any more. I attribute this to the amount of free time people
have, plus people are more consumer based wanting products not parts.
Talking with the owners of my local Art and Model shop owners they share
similar views with both selling less and less 'parts' and more 'completed'
items. They have the same amount of customers and profit margins as they
had 10-20 years ago.
>
> I'm trying to get a handle on the kind of robot building that is going on
> around the UK, where most of it is happening, and what the most common
> problems are with finding components, modules and kits etc.
Finding parts can be difficult when you are starting out, as with any other
areas but you soon build up a list. Pricing does seem to have become a
little obscure. At a local computer fair I have seen a 30 minute digital
Dictaphone sell for £9.99 and a 20 second kit online for about £14.99. More
often than not I purchase parts from the US for less cost, including postage
and in one or two cases, delivery has been quicker.
For an exception to the rule take a look at the Picaxe controller @
www.picaxe.co.uk great product, with a great price!
>
> In my opinion, when compared to the USA, we appear to be lagging some way
> behind with our take up of personal / recreational / educational robotics
> projects. The majority of UK web resources I have located so far have
> suggested that we are mostly building in colleges as part of a technical
> design course, or in some (very few) universities as part of a core AI /
> robotics course. There also appear to be a few isolated recreational or
> sporting activities such as MicroMouse contests, which by and large are
not
> widely communicated. When was the last time you saw an advert in your
local
> paper for an up-coming science fair or robotics competition?
Amateur Radio clubs are seeing falling numbers in membership.
> Is there anyone out there with one or more friends, colleagues or family
> members that are also interested in robotics as a hobby? Is anyone
actually
> a member of a robotics club, whether part of a school or not, and if so,
> what are you up to?
Recently meet up with one person about 20 miles away from me who (luckily)
is also interested in autonomous robotics.
> The main reason for asking these questions is simply to find out if we in
> the UK are building robots in complete isolation from each other or
whether
> there is an active "underground" robotics scene that for some reason gets
> precisely zero publicity.
Not sure about this but I am leaning towards there aren't that many. I'm
sure if there where more competitive / exhibition events more people may be
interested in the hobby.
> This NG has been too quiet for too long and I'm hoping this post will
spark
> some decent conversations about general robotics experimentation in the
UK.
> If we're going to raise awareness, we need to start thinking about what
the
> problems are for the people that are not tempted to try this stuff out,
and
> figure out how we might begin resolving them.
>
> Any and all feedback is welcome.
>
> Regards,
> Justin.
>
Regards,
Grahame.
Justin
through but I'm stuck in NG connection hell at the mercy of NTL!
I haven't replied to every single paragraph received in response to my
initial post, but that doesn't mean I've ignored them, so please don't take
it personally of one of your points has not been addressed here.
While it's good to know that there is some hobby work going on out there, it
would appear that my initial feelings of isolation and declining interest
are also reflected in your replies.
"Bill Marshall" <bi...@wgmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:balhed$ciu$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Interest in robotics in the UK seems
> to centre around Robot Wars and BBC Technogames, neither of which seem to
> feature much in the way of intelligent or autonomous robots.
Agreed. Ask any average school pupil about robotics and you can almost
guarantee a response along the lines of "Yeah - Sir Killalot rules" or "You
mean like Robot Wars?". Unfortunately that doesn't generally get much better
when you speak to other adults either.
> Personally it is the intelligence side that interests me, not the ability
to create
> mayhem.
Me too, which is why I believe mini-sumo has great potential as a launch pad
into more advanced projects. That is why I seized upon the opportunity of
providing the MkIII mini-sumo kit through my website at
http://www.competition-robotics.com (shameless self-promotion, sorry!)
> The level of interest in engineering in the UK is unfortunately heading
> rapidly towards zero - there are literally hundreds of vacancies for
Design
> and Technology teachers, but few takers.
It is a sad fact that the UK's engineering backbone has been all but broken,
and apparently continues to be systematically dismantled. To give a
yardstick comparison on a local scale, I managed to jump on to an
engineering evening class last winter at the local college, only to find
that the tutor had to be recalled from retirement to run the course. Then
barely 50% of the workshop tools were functioning, and unless you were
interested in lathes and milling machines, you were pretty much stuck for
anything else! Each week, another machine went off-line or was removed
completely and by the time the course ended, half the workshop space had
been turned into smaller workrooms for what appeared to be education of
manual trades, I'm assuming for such things as brick-laying, plastering,
carpentry etc.
I applied to continue the course for the following term, only to be told at
the 11th hour that there was "insufficient interest" and that the course was
cancelled. How this could be I'm not sure, because most (if not all) of the
other students on the course expressed a desire to continue.
Anyway, I also looked around for other courses that could be useful for
robotics and found pretty much nothing, either locally (which didn't really
surprise me), or nationally whether through colleges or distance learning
routes. I've even approached a handful of US universities and tutors /
technical authors to try and discover if there is any mileage in obtaining
lecture / lab materials for distribution over here. No replies so far :-(
> A lot of kids worldwide are building Cybot:
> http://www.realrobots.co.uk/index-normal.html
> The engineering is terrible, but at least it should spark some interest in
> robotics.
Real Robots had great potential especially with its pedigree rooted in
Reading University's Seven Dwarves, but, IMHO, it completely failed to
deliver. Where was the technical discussion, the whys and hows of what you
were putting together? Nothing, just plug this here and that there for weeks
and weeks on end, often undoing what you had done the previous week to fit
another part. But I suppose you do get a choice of body styles :-/
"Robin G Hewitt" <rob...@combro.co.uk> wrote in message
news:balcul$lu1$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> The problem with getting parts in the UK are the rip off prices charged
for
> anything slightly out of the ordinary. For example you can easily pay 16
> quid for a 1 quid ball race or timing pulley if you don't know where to go
> and heaven help you if you want a ball screw or bushing.
I believe this ties up in part with Bill's comment above. Engineering
facilities have generally declined, while the cost of locally produced parts
have escalated. We simply aren't competitive with some US and most Far-East
suppliers.
Would you be prepared to share your valued UK sources with the rest of us?
> I know precisely 2 people, (apart from the web) who can understand, or
have
> the slightest interest in my robotic designs, triumphs and set backs.
That is one more than me! As you say, lots of people are united through the
web, but other than that, I don't personally know anyone else locally. I
live in a modern town which is trying to promote itself to City status, but
although it is home to several electronics manufacturers and generally
high-tech businesses, I am still finding it difficult to locate interested
people.
> The Americans don't seem to do much creative work.
That's an interesting point of view because in my mind the USA is second
only to Japan in the creativity running. There are many "genuine" robotics
clubs over there with good subscription levels and annual contests. There
are the Universities competing in world-wide RoboCup soccer (or football to
use the correct term) competitions, general robotics competitions including
fire-fighting, line following, maze solving, BotBall, FIRST, mini- and
Japan-class sumo, etc etc and all these events seem to be well received and
attended by the public. I'm convinced that it is these events that keep the
subject fresh in the minds of experimenters, competitors and visitors alike.
> I have great fun designing my little
> drive trains and dreaming of the day when I finally start building it, but
> those wanting to socialise could easily find a better passtime.
And there may lie a key difference between us and the US. I know one group
of American robot enthusiasts that meet at their local Pizza restaurant or
local bar and discuss the group, their projects and upcoming events. These
meetings are in addition to the official monthly club gathering. Trouble is,
they have more members in their club than I have found across the UK! I
think we need our own beer / pizza and 'bots meetings :-D
Good luck with your drive trains though.
"Brian Bibby" <b.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:mGKza.679$OP4...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> I like to tinker with robots occasionally as a hobby, it draws on a wide
> range of skills (jack of all - master of none) as it satisfies my
technical
> creativity.
I know the feeling, with so many disciplines encompassed in one product,
mastering all is a huge undertaking, and probably not realistic given the
pace of change. Perhaps that is one reason for the sparse population of
robotics enthusiasts over here.
I wonder if the increasing availability of modular kits will help to draw
more people in to the hobby? I am a believer in reusing tried and tested
methods in hardware and software, rather than reinventing them all the time,
but I also like to try and get to grips with the theory and underlying
mechanics of such modules, time and patience permitting.
> I agree, in the UK it seems to be the province of industry and academia,
> aside from a few "Robot War" type events (gratuitous violence) I've only
> ever seen one, a small international walking robot exhibition and
conference
> (http://www.clawar.com/) hosted by Portsmouth University some years ago.
The event looks good. The locations on the other hand suggest that, other
than academic personnel, there would have been / will be very few members of
the UK public there:
2001 - Germany
2002 - France
2003 - Italy
but this is an EU-sponsored event.
> I think we're just too thinly spread.
I agree :-(
"Burgerman" <burg...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Q9Qza.11930$Mu3.2...@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
> > I think we're just too thinly spread.
> >
>
> Speak for yourself! I'm thick!
Erm, OK, whatever.
Nice gas turbines though. Is it just me or as the page goes on do the
engines get bigger? :-D Unfortunately your fatnfast.com link didn't work.
"Outsider" <outs...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bap0er$ao2$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> I attribute this to the amount of free time people
> have, plus people are more consumer based wanting products not parts.
> Talking with the owners of my local Art and Model shop owners they share
> similar views with both selling less and less 'parts' and more 'completed'
> items.
This would also tie in with my reply to Brian's comment above whereby you
need many different skills to be a die-hard roboticist, and the increasing
availability of modular parts will hopefully attract more people over time.
> Finding parts can be difficult when you are starting out, as with any
other
> areas but you soon build up a list. Pricing does seem to have become a
> little obscure. At a local computer fair I have seen a 30 minute digital
> Dictaphone sell for £9.99 and a 20 second kit online for about £14.99.
More
> often than not I purchase parts from the US for less cost, including
postage
> and in one or two cases, delivery has been quicker.
I also import various things from the US, simply because they are not
readily available anywhere else. I generally place medium to large value
orders due to the quantities I'm bringing in, so by the time additional
shipping, import duty, local carrier fees and VAT are added, the dollar to
pound ratio advantage is quickly diminished.
> Not sure about this but I am leaning towards there aren't that many. I'm
> sure if there where more competitive / exhibition events more people may
be
> interested in the hobby.
I tried to kick-start this kind of thing when I first opened my web site.
Even to this day the numbers are still very disappointing, especially from
the industry players whom I expected to want a part of the action. Oh well,
the registration page remains open, and the century is young :-/
----
I must stop now, it's nearly 4am!
Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to reply so far. I think this
conversation could potentially run for a while, so lets see what other clues
and pointers we can coax out of visitors to this NG.
Regards,
Justin.
Prometheus
> For an exception to the rule take a look at the Picaxe controller @
> www.picaxe.co.uk great product, with a great price!
Thats just what I was looking for. I'm new to robotics, but I have a basic
background in electronics. I've found there to be a lack of electronic shops
and model shops in my area, that sell components and anything put those
plastic model kits. Luckery a few months ago a Maplin opened, so its not
quite so bad now.
I've been after looking at some work with PIC chips. However looking
around their programmers are so expensive. This PicAxe chip seems to be just
what I'm looking for, thanks. :-)
--
--Prometheus--
ICQ: 71542155
AOL:Ched45
Robin G Hewitt
> around their programmers are so expensive. This PicAxe chip seems to be
> just what I'm looking for, thanks. :-)
Hang on, picaxe seems to be a simplified PIC programmer not a chip. If you
are electronically minded surely you want to program in Assembler or C. Why
work with one frontal lobe tied behind your back?
If money is really in short supply then I suggest you exploit the east west
divide, try
http://www.olimex.com/kits/index.html
There's a rather harried gentleman there called Tsvetan who can cut you the
most amazing deals on anything with a pcb in it.
Chris Hills
<pr...@NOSPAMslingsby.karoo.co.uk> writes
> I've been after looking at some work with PIC chips. However looking
>around their programmers are so expensive. This PicAxe chip seems to be just
>what I'm looking for, thanks. :-)
Actually the PIC stuff is common in the hobby market because it is so
cheap compared to everything else.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ ch...@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Prometheus
cheap programmer for them.....
Justin
http://www.newfoundelectronics.com/warp-13a.htm
Depends on definition of "cheap" though. This is 99 USD (~ 62 GBP).
"Prometheus" <pr...@NOSPAMslingsby.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:baq15s$ge6$1...@newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net...
Robin G Hewitt
> http://www.newfoundelectronics.com/warp-13a.htm
>
> Depends on definition of "cheap" though. This is 99 USD (~ 62 GBP).
That much better than the $15.95 part I suggested, but only if you apply the
"you get what you pay for" assumption.
Prometheus
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3081.htm
They seem comparable to those $15.95 parts?
Robin G Hewitt
UK based is good, better support, and they do warn you against cheaper
devices "Although it is possible to buy cheaper PIC16F84 programmers,
features rapidly drop off as the price goes down e.g. manual switching of
programming voltage, no verify or read facility, minimal software. And
without certain assembled-in safety circuits these cheaper models cannot be
guaranteed to work on all PC's".
Scary stuff. OTOH it is a kit and you can save $2 off the $15.95 if you
don't mind building it yourself which makes it under a tenner. It works off
a parallel port and does these devices.
PIC12C508, PIC12C508A, PIC12C509, PIC12C509A, PIC12CE518, PIC12CE519,
PIC12C671, PIC12C672, PIC12CE673, PIC12CE674, PIC16C505, PIC16C554,
PIC16C556, PIC16C558, PIC16C61, PIC16C62, PIC16C62A, PIC16C62B, PIC16C63,
PIC16C64, PIC16C64A, PIC16C64B, PIC16C65, PIC16C65A, PIC16C65B, PIC16C66,
PIC16C67, PIC16C620, PIC16C620A, PIC16C621, PIC16C621A, PIC16C662,
PIC16C662A, PIC16CE623, PIC16CE624, PIC16CE625, PIC16C662, PIC16C71,
PIC16C72, PIC16C73, PIC16C74, PIC16C74A, PIC16C74B, PIC16C76, PIC16C77,
PIC16C710, PIC16C711, PIC16C715, PIC16C84, PIC16F83, PIC16F84, PIC16F84A,
PIC16F873, PIC16F874, PIC16F876, PIC16F877, PIC16C923, PIC16C924
http://www.olimex.com/kits/pg003.html
You pays y'money. You takes y'choice.
Gerald Coe
I think its worth re-stating the comment Justin made below. Justin is
trying hard to get a UK robotics event up and running, and if anyone is
interested in traveling to Wiltshire, then please register your
intentions on his website at:
http://www.competition-robotics.com/fwrt.asp
Justin knows that I will be there, not just as a trade stand, but also
to see other peoples robots and to talk to like minded souls. (and maybe
even compete).
It needs a critical mass of interest to get this off the ground and a
venue and date set for the event. When that happens, I'm sure others
will come along as they see its no-longer speculative, but a real event
coming up.
Lets have a push and see if we can make this happen.
Best Regards,
Gerry.
In message <X7Wza.970$xW4...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>, Justin
<?.?@?.?.invalid> writes
>
>I tried to kick-start this kind of thing when I first opened my web site.
>Even to this day the numbers are still very disappointing, especially from
>the industry players whom I expected to want a part of the action. Oh well,
>the registration page remains open, and the century is young :-/
>
>Regards,
>
>Justin.
--
Regards, Gerry
www.robot-electronics.co.uk
Chris Hills
<?.?@?.?> writes
>Thanks for the responses so far. Sorry it has taken a while to get my reply
>through but I'm stuck in NG connection hell at the mercy of NTL!
the Internet has gone a bit silly recently. Delivery times have
fluctuated widely and wildly. Most people I know have reported a huge
increase in spam over the last 2 months. One ISP i know said that they
have noticed it too and estimated that 40% of email traffic is now
spam!!!
>While it's good to know that there is some hobby work going on out there, it
>would appear that my initial feelings of isolation and declining interest
>are also reflected in your replies.
I agree. There is less of an interest in hobby electronics as in the
last couple of decades. Part of the reason is cost. Radios were
expensive and the only way was often to build your own. Also there was
not the availability of cheap electronic devices that there are now.
Most people when you say electronics think Computers. Whey you say
computers most people kink PC's or games. Most kids want to get into
programming games and web sites.
Games and web sites are the modern equivalent of building your own radio
:-)
>"Bill Marshall" <bi...@wgmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:balhed$ciu$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>> Interest in robotics in the UK seems
>> to centre around Robot Wars and BBC Technogames, neither of which seem to
>> feature much in the way of intelligent or autonomous robots.
>
>Agreed. Ask any average school pupil about robotics and you can almost
>guarantee a response along the lines of "Yeah - Sir Killalot rules" or "You
>mean like Robot Wars?". Unfortunately that doesn't generally get much better
>when you speak to other adults either.
However.... this does spark an interest in electronics, [embedded]
computing, radio control and mechanics.
Interestingly there is a suggestion that the IMech E (Inst of Mechanical
Engineers) will merge with the IEE (Inst Electrical Eng) because of the
falling numbers in the IMechE and the fact that many of it's members are
doing robotics.
>> Personally it is the intelligence side that interests me, not the ability
>to create
>> mayhem.
>
>Me too, which is why I believe mini-sumo has great potential as a launch pad
>into more advanced projects. That is why I seized upon the opportunity of
>providing the MkIII mini-sumo kit through my website at
>http://www.competition-robotics.com (shameless self-promotion, sorry!)
Actually the AI in the Robot Wars robots is virtually banned AFAIK for
reasons of safety and public liability... there has to be no chance that
the robot will do ANYTHING without a positive input from the opperater
and everything has to fail safe.
I can understand this but like in the F1 circles I wonder home much the
control code is "tweaked " :-)
>> The level of interest in engineering in the UK is unfortunately heading
>> rapidly towards zero - there are literally hundreds of vacancies for
>Design
>> and Technology teachers, but few takers.
Interesting tell me more.... I could do wit the long holidays :-)
The IEE is having a major thrust at promoting (software, computing
electronic, electrical) engineering in the UK, and of course itslef in
to the bargin.
BTW see www.iee.org.uk/pn
>It is a sad fact that the UK's engineering backbone has been all but broken,
>and apparently continues to be systematically dismantled.
Largley thanks to this government .... IR35 and section 660.
>To give a
>yardstick comparison on a local scale, I managed to jump on to an
>engineering evening class last winter at the local college, only to find
>that the tutor had to be recalled from retirement to run the course. Then
>barely 50% of the workshop tools were functioning, and unless you were
>interested in lathes and milling machines, you were pretty much stuck for
>anything else! Each week, another machine went off-line or was removed
>completely and by the time the course ended, half the workshop space had
>been turned into smaller workrooms for what appeared to be education of
>manual trades, I'm assuming for such things as brick-laying, plastering,
>carpentry etc.
What is sad. Especially as the UK was at the forefront of engineering
and computing. Having invented most things the Americans thing that they
did.
>I applied to continue the course for the following term, only to be told at
>the 11th hour that there was "insufficient interest" and that the course was
>cancelled. How this could be I'm not sure, because most (if not all) of the
>other students on the course expressed a desire to continue.
The trick here is to get the e-mail addresses of all the other students
before the end of the term. You might find that whilst all 10 of you
were interested the collage realised that there was another course they
could run with 20 people for the same costs to them... i.e. twice the
profit. The collages are very commercial these days.
You would have thought that they would have all wanted to run "Robot
Wars" robotics courses as I expect there would be a lot of intrest in
these.
>Anyway, I also looked around for other courses that could be useful for
>robotics and found pretty much nothing, either locally (which didn't really
>surprise me), or nationally whether through colleges or distance learning
>routes. I've even approached a handful of US universities and tutors /
>technical authors to try and discover if there is any mileage in obtaining
>lecture / lab materials for distribution over here. No replies so far :-(
I would not suggest the US route. they have a lot of problems supporting
"over there" and can't tell the different between London, Paris and
Tehran...
>> A lot of kids worldwide are building Cybot:
>> http://www.realrobots.co.uk/index-normal.html
>> The engineering is terrible, but at least it should spark some interest in
>> robotics.
Yes. However they were looking for an audience of 10-15 years olds who
wanted to build a toy.
>Real Robots had great potential especially with its pedigree rooted in
>Reading University's Seven Dwarves, but, IMHO, it completely failed to
>deliver. Where was the technical discussion, the whys and hows of what you
>were putting together? Nothing, just plug this here and that there for weeks
>and weeks on end, often undoing what you had done the previous week to fit
>another part. But I suppose you do get a choice of body styles :-/
The totally appalling way in which it was run is what promoted me to
start this NG. Whilst many of the older people who were
electronics/computer literate followed here most of the kids seemed to
have no idea what a news group was.
Incidentally when asked for the schematics of the circuits they
declined... when I (BSC, C.Eng, MIEE, MIEEE) enquired why I was told it
was because the users, including myself, would find them confusing and
not able to understand them!!!!
I not that when I did look ate the web based discussion there were at
least 3 users who posted reverse engineered drawings on to their web
sites within 48 ours of getting the boards...
The real reason turned out to be commercial as there was a magazine in
Italy running a similar robot with another publisher. this is also the
reason why the source code was not released.
>I believe this ties up in part with Bill's comment above. Engineering
>facilities have generally declined, while the cost of locally produced parts
>have escalated. We simply aren't competitive with some US and most Far-East
>suppliers.
This is true However you can buy in from the far east. This is one of
the complaints I had with the publisher of RR... the main processor was
a strange far East one that no one could get in the UK and the publisher
would not help with any details.
they were only interested in a short term commercial market not robots
or starting a real robotics community. I understand that this has caused
some problems at Reading Uni where some of it emanated from.
>Would you be prepared to share your valued UK sources with the rest of us?
What do you have in mind? I work for a company that does embedded
emgineering tools (ICE, compilers, debugger, compilers, dev boards etc)
and we make an active effort to support the UK universities and 6th form
collages.
(Before you all rush please note what we do is NOT aimed at the hobby
market. It is industrial stuff. We are NOT Maplin.)
>> I know precisely 2 people, (apart from the web) who can understand, or
>have
>> the slightest interest in my robotic designs, triumphs and set backs.
there is a UK (industrial) Robotics club.... I will have to dig out the
links.
>That is one more than me! As you say, lots of people are united through the
>web, but other than that, I don't personally know anyone else locally. I
>live in a modern town which is trying to promote itself to City status, but
>although it is home to several electronics manufacturers and generally
>high-tech businesses, I am still finding it difficult to locate interested
>people.
How do you suggest we raise the awareness? this NG could be used as a
focus. We just have to get it know in the right areas. I will see if I
can get it mentioned in a couple of electronics/embedded magazines.
>> The Americans don't seem to do much creative work.
>
>
>That's an interesting point of view because in my mind the USA is second
>only to Japan in the creativity running. There are many "genuine" robotics
>clubs over there with good subscription levels and annual contests. There
>are the Universities competing in world-wide RoboCup soccer (or football to
>use the correct term) competitions, general robotics competitions including
>fire-fighting, line following, maze solving, BotBall, FIRST, mini- and
>Japan-class sumo, etc etc and all these events seem to be well received and
>attended by the public. I'm convinced that it is these events that keep the
>subject fresh in the minds of experimenters, competitors and visitors alike.
This is true but much of the real creative work is not done by
Americans. Many "Americans" turn out to be European people who get
lured to the US for big money for a spell after they have invented
something interesting in the Europe.
Einstein was German (his theory was written in Germany)
Strustrup (inventor of C++) is Dainish
Linus who did Linux is not American
Dijstra of opperating system theory fame in Dutch
But the average American things they are American.
>> I have great fun designing my little
>> drive trains and dreaming of the day when I finally start building it, but
>> those wanting to socialise could easily find a better passtime.
>
>And there may lie a key difference between us and the US. I know one group
>of American robot enthusiasts that meet at their local Pizza restaurant or
>local bar and discuss the group, their projects and upcoming events. These
>meetings are in addition to the official monthly club gathering. Trouble is,
>they have more members in their club than I have found across the UK! I
>think we need our own beer / pizza and 'bots meetings :-D
>
We need to publicise as get people aware... Also many people are wary
of the "weirdos" who do this sort of stuff. Everyone had (used to have)
a strange old uncle who was a radio ham... Anoraks etc
This image need changing. Robot Wars and Real Robots for all their
faults has helped here
>I wonder if the increasing availability of modular kits will help to draw
>more people in to the hobby? I am a believer in reusing tried and tested
>methods in hardware and software, rather than reinventing them all the time,
>but I also like to try and get to grips with the theory and underlying
>mechanics of such modules, time and patience permitting.
It is possible. The trouble is the kids these days (I have 2) want quick
fixes and simple answers. Not so good for learing engineering.
>> I agree, in the UK it seems to be the province of industry and academia,
>> aside from a few "Robot War" type events (gratuitous violence) I've only
>> ever seen one, a small international walking robot exhibition and
>conference
>> (http://www.clawar.com/) hosted by Portsmouth University some years ago.
>
>The event looks good. The locations on the other hand suggest that, other
>than academic personnel, there would have been / will be very few members of
>the UK public there:
It does not have the "hollywood" appeal of fighting robots. :-(
>> I attribute this to the amount of free time people
>> have, plus people are more consumer based wanting products not parts.
>
>> Talking with the owners of my local Art and Model shop owners they share
>> similar views with both selling less and less 'parts' and more 'completed'
>> items.
Maplin are a 140 milion turn-over company (last year)
>This would also tie in with my reply to Brian's comment above whereby you
>need many different skills to be a die-hard roboticist, and the increasing
>availability of modular parts will hopefully attract more people over time.
Yes.. robotics is multi skilled but the availability of cheap modules
means you can concentrate on the area that interests you and buy modules
for the bits that don't
Instead of crying into our beer how can we improve matters?
Can we come up with a strategy?
Engineering is also about project control :-)
Regards
Chris
Chris Hills
The Keil/Philips P89LCP932 dev kit 9with flash programer and Keil
compiler is about 35 Uk pounds.... (see www.hitex.co.uk/shop and
www.keil.com/lpc )
In article <Pe0Aa.660$R8....@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>, Justin
<?.?@?.?> writes
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Chris Hills
<pr...@NOSPAMslingsby.karoo.co.uk> writes
>I know the chips themselves are cheap, but I havn't been able to find a
>cheap programmer for them.....
The dev tools are also comparatively cheap.
However many 8051's have flash memory now and the programming SW is free
so the "programmer" is a serial lead :-) the 8051's are an industry
standard part... I think 1 in 3 micros in the world is an 8051 type
part.
You could try the new Philips P80LPC932 That is an 8051 with a very
inexpensive kit, a 4K Keil compiler and the flash programming tools....
Regards
Chris
Outsider
Given your basic background in electronics, you may find the
Supported devices section of www.ic-prog.com useful.
Outsider
> > I've been after looking at some work with PIC chips. However looking
> > around their programmers are so expensive. This PicAxe chip seems to be
> > just what I'm looking for, thanks. :-)
>
> Hang on, picaxe seems to be a simplified PIC programmer not a chip.
It's more of a Basic Stamp type interpreter which costs little more than
the cost of the chip itself.
> If you are electronically minded surely you want to program in Assembler
or C. Why
> work with one frontal lobe tied behind your back?
To simplifying the process and provide positive results eairler on. Robotics
can have a steep learning curve, Mech, Software, Elec engineering, and you
can always reprogram the PICAXE chip using Assembler or C later on.
The Happy Hippy
> Thanks for the responses so far. Sorry it has taken a while to get my
reply
> through but I'm stuck in NG connection hell at the mercy of NTL!
Have you switched to the text.news.ntlworld.com server ? Admittedly I'm on
NTL BB at 150Kbps ( Luton area ) not dial-up, but I've had virtually no
problems with NTL NG's since they created the text only servers.
The Happy Hippy
> > I've been after looking at some work with PIC chips. However looking
> > around their programmers are so expensive. This PicAxe chip seems to be
> > just what I'm looking for, thanks. :-)
>
> Hang on, picaxe seems to be a simplified PIC programmer not a chip. If you
> are electronically minded surely you want to program in Assembler or C.
Why
> work with one frontal lobe tied behind your back?
As a professional software engineer who has electronics hobby interests, I
love the Picaxe, and would recommend it to anyone starting out in
electronics or software engineering. It's actually a Basic Stamp clone, on
steroids in the case of the X parts.
The Picaxe costs little more than the price of a PIC and lets you get simple
projects off the ground in next to no time. In the case of the X parts, some
pretty big and reasonable powerful programs can be written. It's ideal for
those with electronics experience but few programming skills.
For more advanced work, C or Assembler would probably be better, with code
being quicker to execute and much more I/O flexibility, but if you use a
Picaxe, you can prototype and test then simply replace with a 'native PIC'
as your experience and skills grow.
The issue of 'learning curve' is a major one. I knocked up a simple robot
with LDR sensors and PWM motor control in just a day, from a ' have nothing'
start - there is nothing like getting quick, and good results, to inspire
oneself to greater things ! Robotics require many skills, and it's not my
field, so the Picaxe, plus the Cybot kit chassis, motors, and driver from
Real Robots magazine got me into making a robot when I'd been looking at
doing so for many, many years, but had always felt overwhelmed by the effort
needed and costs involved.
The Picaxe is also brilliant for PC serial to hardware interfacing projects;
for example you can write simple PC controlled relay switching programs in
under a minute, and without the cost of a chip programmer.
The Picaxe is not the be all and end all, but as 'an enabling technology',
it's excellent.
My review of the Picaxe, which is a little out of date now as it doesn't
cover the X parts, can be found at -
www.hippy.freeserve.co.uk\picaxe.htm
Robin G Hewitt
> or C. Why work with one frontal lobe tied behind your back?
>
> To simplifying the process and provide positive results eairler on.
Robotics
> can have a steep learning curve, Mech, Software, Elec engineering, and you
Hi
So you're saying it's a mental stepping stone which should be dumped asap to
make way for bigger and better things? We do not disagree. I remember making
the transition from an impossibly slow BASIC to Z80 assembler with my Nascom
2. In retrospect the big problem with the BASIC was it hid from me the
simple fact that I could make the computer do anything they could make it
do.
Great learning tool the Nascom kit because it didn't work. After days
staring at the circuit diagrams I slowly began to understand how it was
supposed to work and how I could control it, why the bottom line of the
character set never showed on the screen, how the tape interface worked etc.
I then back engineered someone elses disk controller, wrote a BIOS, booted
CP/M and after that there was no stopping me.
That was a learning curve. A learning curve is not persuading someone with
little or no interest that they can join your merry crew without actually
having to learn much at all. Buying a camera does not make you a
photographer no matter how many features, bells and whistles it may have on
it. </rant>
OTOH, as my robot design grinds into it's third year without so much as a
plate cut or a joint soldered and no guarantee it will even work when I do,
I wonder if the Nascom experience didn't leave me just a little odd. (It is
a blooming ingenious design though :o)
The Happy Hippy
> > > If you are electronically minded surely you want to program in
Assembler
> > or C. Why work with one frontal lobe tied behind your back?
> >
> > To simplifying the process and provide positive results eairler on.
> Robotics
> > can have a steep learning curve, Mech, Software, Elec engineering, and
you
>
> So you're saying it's a mental stepping stone which should be dumped asap
to
> make way for bigger and better things? We do not disagree. [snip]
>
> A learning curve is not persuading someone with
> little or no interest that they can join your merry crew without actually
> having to learn much at all. Buying a camera does not make you a
> photographer no matter how many features, bells and whistles it may have
on
> it. </rant>
True, but for those people who think they might like to / want to get into
robotics, but are overwhelmed by the cost or amount of work which faces
them, simple 'beginners' tools are a boon.
Those who find they weren't really interested, or it's not actually their
cup of tea, have not been left too out of pocket, while those who get into
it will then grow into using more complex tools, and put the effort into
learning alternative ways to do things.
Kick-starting the learning curve is really what Picaxe's are good for. Don't
forget that some people have virtually no skills at all when they start but
are still interested in robotics. Experiences such as having to make your
Nascom work ( which *is* a good learning experience ), would be too much for
someone without the skills, who could be easily disheartened and abandon
robotics at the first hurdle, which would be a great loss.
Some people may be happy just to get a robot working with the most basic
building blocks, while others may go on to much greater things. Like all
hobbies, there will be those whose interests extend across the whole extent
of its possibilities.
I'm not criticising your view of 'learning curve' and agree with you, but
getting people over the first hurdle, and letting them know they can do it,
is the first step.
Robin G Hewitt
> getting people over the first hurdle, and letting them know they can do
> it, is the first step.
Hi Happy
I am but a humble engineer and I tend to treat people as if they were me. A
newby robot maker comes to a forum like this with big plans, I like to say,
go for it, don't get bogged down in the mundane looking at the same
suppliers, the same modules, the same kits as everyone else.
If only one out of a hundred stick with it and take their original idea
through to completion, then at least we have a chance of getting something
new and innovative, which is what England used to be all about.
Robotics is a fledgling science and it really needs people to try new things
if it is to progress.
Justin
BTW - I'm on 1Mb BB and was seriously struggling with the normal
news.ntlworld.com server, unavailable from about 3.30 pm every afternoon and
all weekend. Which is why I sent my last message at nearly 4am |-(
"The Happy Hippy" <the.hap...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3nfAa.12662$sJ4....@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
Justin
in my reply.
I'm currently thinking that I may have to constrain the scope of the event
somewhat, unless a lot more registrations are forthcoming. The reason I left
it open in the first place was to try and capture the maximum number of
responses without driving people away because their favourite discipline was
not listed.
My problem is that I can't fund the entire setup without knowing that there
are sufficient people willing to turn up and make it successful. I'd be
happy just to break even, but as you say, people may not show interest
unless there is a definite venue and date set. And so we go around in
circles, ad infinitum.
I'll also need volunteers to help with the construction of arenas / sumo
rings / mazes etc. which is why I intended to start this whole thing off
with the formation of a local club.
It's probably a good time for me to approach the council to find out what
support they would be prepared to offer. I'll add that to my to-do list
(again).
There have been quite a few names and email addresses of promoters &
experienced organisers (robofesta among others) passed on to me since I
first opened the FWRT response collection page, but I have been cautious in
my approach toward them because I don't want to be seen to be wasting their
time, which I would be with only a handful of possible attendees. Perhaps
they can help to calculate that critical mass that Gerry correctly
identified.
To date, I have received applications from approx. 30 spectators (+ 11
unspecified) and 22 competitors, but this is still too few to attract many
trade suppliers, or other backers.
I have been offered a static display of a local Robot Wars team robot
(www.gyrobot.co.uk), which I will take up if the event gets off the ground.
And before you curse me for u.t.r blasphemy, it may help to attract the
youngsters, and their parents!!
If I could just find a dozen (or so) local people who would be interested in
competing in a mini-sumo contest, that would be a great start! They don't
_have_ to be local, but problems are generally easier to debug face to face,
and test runs will be beneficial too.
I'll see if I can work out a buy-two-get-x-discount deal on the MkIII kits;
http://www.competition-robotics.com/prodcat.asp?mkIII_kit.
At least having two robots will allow competitors to debug their problems in
isolation from each other.
Finally, I'd just like to point out that filling in the
http://www.competition-robotics.com/fwrt.asp response form is in no way
committing you to attend. I just want to know how many people in the region
(or those prepared to travel from further afield) are genuinely interested.
Thanks for your time.
Regards,
Justin.
"Gerald Coe" <ge...@devantechD0Tdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:NLczBJBv...@devantech.demon.co.uk...
Justin
news:kk06QNBb...@phaedsys.demon.co.uk...
(some text cut for brevity)
> Most people when you say electronics think Computers. Whey you say
> computers most people kink PC's or games. Most kids want to get into
> programming games and web sites.
>
> Games and web sites are the modern equivalent of building your own radio
> :-)
True. Which is why it is important to show by demonstration that there are
other, equally rewarding activities for which computers and the Internet can
be used.
> >Agreed. Ask any average school pupil about robotics and you can almost
> >guarantee a response along the lines of "Yeah - Sir Killalot rules" or
"You
> >mean like Robot Wars?". Unfortunately that doesn't generally get much
better
> >when you speak to other adults either.
>
> However.... this does spark an interest in electronics, [embedded]
> computing, radio control and mechanics.
Admittedly yes, but in a way that is expensive, dangerous and well beyond
reach for the majority in terms of workshop access, machine tool skills etc.
>
> Interestingly there is a suggestion that the IMech E (Inst of Mechanical
> Engineers) will merge with the IEE (Inst Electrical Eng) because of the
> falling numbers in the IMechE and the fact that many of it's members are
> doing robotics.
>
That could be a good move. Bringing the two disciplines together may provide
more pathways for the study of robotics as a whole, rather than as two
separate elements of engineering.
>
> Actually the AI in the Robot Wars robots is virtually banned AFAIK for
> reasons of safety and public liability... there has to be no chance that
> the robot will do ANYTHING without a positive input from the opperater
> and everything has to fail safe.
>
I know the better teams have computer-assisted driving technology in there
(ie. George Francis' Chaos robot), and some have tried automated weapon
activation, although spectacularly unsuccessfully. I think this kind of
thing tends to show up in robots that run upside down as the computer
converts the control inputs according to orientation.
> I can understand this but like in the F1 circles I wonder home much the
> control code is "tweaked " :-)
>
But look how boring F1 got to watch. That's why they reinvented the
execution rules for this season, and received mixed reactions as a result.
Personally I think it's better, but I'm not a dedicated fan.
> >It is a sad fact that the UK's engineering backbone has been all but
broken,
> >and apparently continues to be systematically dismantled.
>
> Largley thanks to this government .... IR35 and section 660.
>
Well said.
>
> The trick here is to get the e-mail addresses of all the other students
> before the end of the term. You might find that whilst all 10 of you
> were interested the collage realised that there was another course they
> could run with 20 people for the same costs to them... i.e. twice the
> profit. The collages are very commercial these days.
>
That's probably what happened, with a few dozen brickies, chippies and
sparks.
>
> You would have thought that they would have all wanted to run "Robot
> Wars" robotics courses as I expect there would be a lot of intrest in
> these.
>
I don't think they're prepared to stand the liability risks associated with
the weapons and associated systems. But providing a resource for the
construction of bases, drive trains, shells and control electronics [or
perhaps that should be R/C receivers and speed controllers ;-)] would
doubtless be attractive to many.
>
> I would not suggest the US route. they have a lot of problems supporting
> "over there" and can't tell the different between London, Paris and
> Tehran...
>
LOL - but I wanted to make the written "curriculum" available to Joe
Builder, much the same way as Parallax do with their excellent Basic Stamp
courseware (www.stampsinclass.com). At least there would be something to
study and work along with.
>
> >> A lot of kids worldwide are building Cybot:
> >> http://www.realrobots.co.uk/index-normal.html
> >> The engineering is terrible, but at least it should spark some interest
in
> >> robotics.
>
> Yes. However they were looking for an audience of 10-15 years olds who
> wanted to build a toy.
>
Yep. Pity they didn't mention that before they launched.
>
> The totally appalling way in which it was run is what promoted me to
> start this NG. Whilst many of the older people who were
> electronics/computer literate followed here most of the kids seemed to
> have no idea what a news group was.
>
> Incidentally when asked for the schematics of the circuits they
> declined... when I (BSC, C.Eng, MIEE, MIEEE) enquired why I was told it
> was because the users, including myself, would find them confusing and
> not able to understand them!!!!
>
This may be true for the 10-15 year olds perhaps, but by the age of 14-ish,
they should be capable of being taught to read schematics.
>
> The real reason turned out to be commercial as there was a magazine in
> Italy running a similar robot with another publisher. this is also the
> reason why the source code was not released.
>
Commerce wins and the readers suffer. Surely making this more accessible and
interesting to an adult audience would have boosted sales by significant
numbers. Why not go all out and make the whole thing open source ?!
>
> However you can buy in from the far east. This is one of
> the complaints I had with the publisher of RR... the main processor was
> a strange far East one that no one could get in the UK and the publisher
> would not help with any details.
>
The point is that although I can buy from the Far East (and I do
occasionally), I shouldn't have to. I should be able to buy UK-made goods
and support the growth of my own country, not someone else's. When was the
last time we saw anything bearing the "Made in England" stamp? Even Reebok
trainers, complete with Union Jack tags are made in Korea (I think).
> they were only interested in a short term commercial market not robots
> or starting a real robotics community. I understand that this has caused
> some problems at Reading Uni where some of it emanated from.
>
So were Reading Uni hoping for a more community-beneficial product? I'd like
to think so.
> >Would you be prepared to share your valued UK sources with the rest of
us?
>
> What do you have in mind? I work for a company that does embedded
> emgineering tools (ICE, compilers, debugger, compilers, dev boards etc)
> and we make an active effort to support the UK universities and 6th form
> collages.
>
A comment in a previous post suggested that people have, over time, compiled
a list of useful manufacturers and suppliers that could benefit the hobby. I
have nothing specific in mind, but anything that could be of use to
everyone.
>
> there is a UK (industrial) Robotics club.... I will have to dig out the
> links.
>
Look forward to following up on that.
>
> How do you suggest we raise the awareness? this NG could be used as a
> focus. We just have to get it know in the right areas. I will see if I
> can get it mentioned in a couple of electronics/embedded magazines.
>
Excellent, and if we can infiltrate the education sector, that would be most
useful. Any people here work inside the school system? Just a few posters
might be enough to get started.
>
> This is true but much of the real creative work is not done by
> Americans. Many "Americans" turn out to be European people who get
> lured to the US for big money for a spell after they have invented
> something interesting in the Europe.
>
Ok, but then it is the American market that has funded the development of
these ideas. And it is very annoying that it happens that way.
>
> We need to publicise as get people aware... Also many people are wary
> of the "weirdos" who do this sort of stuff. Everyone had (used to have)
> a strange old uncle who was a radio ham... Anoraks etc
>
> This image need changing. Robot Wars and Real Robots for all their
> faults has helped here
>
Agreed. I do get odd looks when I tell anyone I'm into non-RW robotics.
Forget trying to explain anything, that glazed expression tells me "right,
talk about television instead!" Very sad.
I am trying to push the mini-sumo concept and have also come up with some
ideas for mini-soccer too. When other work pressures allow (I don't run the
robotics business as my main operation) I will get the soccer development
back on track. The ideas I have will allow the robots to cooperate without
the overhead camera and off-line AI that is currently accepted as "the norm"
in this genre.
>
> Maplin are a 140 milion turn-over company (last year)
>
I'm not surprised with their prices!
>
> Yes.. robotics is multi skilled but the availability of cheap modules
> means you can concentrate on the area that interests you and buy modules
> for the bits that don't
>
> Instead of crying into our beer how can we improve matters?
> Can we come up with a strategy?
> Engineering is also about project control :-)
>
1: Make more people aware (targeted audience - full-time education age
especially)
2: Give those people a reason to get involved (capture their imagination)
3: Make and/or sell cost-effective modules to those people that want them or
components to those that don't
4: Provide support and information through this NG
5: Encourage meetings, competitions and display events
6: Goto 1 !
This may at first sound frivolous, but unless Joe Public is captivated by an
idea, and has the means to evaluate and investigate a project for
him/herself, it simply won't happen. As I see it, we need to start off a
clustering chain reaction, drawing just a few closely situated people
together, even as dispersed groups. Then (I hope) each cluster will have a
gravitational effect on other local individuals, who are drawn in, and so
on.
Not easy by any means, and all ideas on the subject are gratefully accepted.
>
> Regards
> Chris
>
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/\
> /\/\/ ch...@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/
> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Regards,
Justin.
Outsider
>
> That was a learning curve. A learning curve is not persuading someone with
> little or no interest that they can join your merry crew without actually
> having to learn much at all.
Hmmmm. Haven't got a merry crew and I hope I'm not persuading anybody into
something they are not really interested in doing. I will put my hands up
to 'without actually having to learn much at all' every time though!!!.
> Buying a camera does not make you a
> photographer no matter how many features, bells and whistles it may have
on
> it. </rant>
Ye, couldn't agree more but would like to add 'You don't need to read and
write music to make it.'
I have no relationship with the Picaxe product, so there is nothing it for
me if people use them or not, just pointing out a product that's great value
for money.
>
> OTOH, as my robot design grinds into it's third year without so much as a
> plate cut or a joint soldered and no guarantee it will even work when I
do,
> I wonder if the Nascom experience didn't leave me just a little odd. (It
is
> a blooming ingenious design though :o)
Looking forward to seeing your robot.
OT: Your Nascom experience does put me in mind of using a short ZX80 'basic'
program to load machine code one byte of literally hand written machine code
at a time. Does anybody remember the 'robot' kits that where sold in
'Practical Electronics' many many years ago that use to run along a
suspended piece of sring?
regards
Grahame.
alok...@gmail.com
> If you were going to build a robot, what would you go looking for, and where
> do you source your parts from currently?
>
> around the UK, where most of it is happening, and what the most common
> problems are with finding components, modules and kits etc.
>
> behind with our take up of personal / recreational / educational robotics
> projects. The majority of UK web resources I have located so far have
> suggested that we are mostly building in colleges as part of a technical
> design course, or in some (very few) universities as part of a core AI /
> robotics course. There also appear to be a few isolated recreational or
> sporting activities such as MicroMouse contests, which by and large are not
> widely communicated. When was the last time you saw an advert in your local
> paper for an up-coming science fair or robotics competition?
>
> members that are also interested in robotics as a hobby? Is anyone actually
> a member of a robotics club, whether part of a school or not, and if so,
> what are you up to?
>
> the UK are building robots in complete isolation from each other or whether
> there is an active "underground" robotics scene that for some reason gets
> precisely zero publicity.
>